#73 Adrien Taylor of Not Another creative agency on driving positive change

Hey, Kia ora Shamay. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you to all our listeners. I actually met one of my listeners in real life the other day. Shout out to Jonathan Eels, CEO of Enable, listens to this podcast on the treadmill. So go fast. Jonathan, turn it up, come on. 12k an hour, whatever it is, push go the extra K. Yes, thank you to all our listeners. Yeah. With me today we have the awesome, the amazing Adrian Taylor from Not Another. How's it going, mate?

Yeah, really well. Thank you very much for having me on the show.

It's a pleasure, man. I was just trying to remember when, when did we first meet? Was it possibly when you were at uni or was it after that? I can't remember.

Yeah, possibly when I was still at uc.

Possibly sometime when you were around there. I was bumping around UC for a little while while there seemed to be a bunch of you. It's like, I don't know this. It feels like UC has, University of Canterbury has pumped out a bunch of impact, driven all entrepreneurs around about that same period. There's like yourselves, Brianne from Ethique, Sam from Little Yellow Bird, Bridget Williams from Beat and Proceed. Obviously something in the water in Canterbury, at university, around this or what beer were you all drinking? There's something in the beer or the water around that time, clearly 100.

Yeah, it must be. Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. Something in the water for sure, that I made this. Positive vibes, positive vibes, that's all about.

So for people who don't know who Adrian Tanner is, who are you and what do you do?

Well, yeah, big open question. I am the co founder at the moment of a creative agency based in Christchurch with an office here in Christchurch and in Sydney and a team of about 15 of us around the world. So yeah, I co founded the agency with my business partner Mark about five years ago and sort of fell into the world of creative agencies through a bit of a long, long winded way or a sort of atypical kind of journey. My background was actually in journalism, did that for a few years, then sort of left the world of journalism, did some sort of documentaries and on climate change, did a couple of other businesses, started a cap business and a bunch of stuff and then yeah, sort of somehow fell into a creative agency here in Christchurch where I met Mark, my business partner. And yeah, through a sort of process of, of working out what we did want to do and didn't want to do, kind of eventually landed on creating Our own creative agency which is called Not Another. And so yeah, I run that now and that keeps me, keeps me busy. It's been five years, five years going and still, still going strong. So that's, that's kind of me short.

Short. I know I do. I like the name and your website's quite cool. I haven't looked at it for a while but it's like not another website. Not Another. It's like it's a cool name. For.

Plenty of ammunition with Not Another name, we've made tote bags that are Not Another tote bag. Not Another. Yeah, Not Another email signature. We've, yeah, we've, we've sort of threshed the name to, to bits and really it really just came from, I mean finding a business name as you know is really, really hard and it just really came from ambition to not be like any of the other agencies and yeah, do things a little bit, a little bit differently.

Nice. And so how did you and Mark know each other? Was that a long standing sort of friendship relationship or you just bump each other in a bar one night like, hey, I want to start an agency.

Yeah, yeah. So what happened was I was. Yeah, so I'd been a journalist then I sort of left the world of journalism and, and had concentrated on my startup offcut which I was a hat business. I can talk about more detail afterwards. And then I sort of was doing, I was doing a bunch of things. So after, after the world of TB3 in Auckland, I was for a while, for a couple of years I was actually I made a couple of documentaries, co directed a couple of documentaries on climate change. One in Bangladesh and one in Mongolia. And when I was in Mongolia, I think it was, yeah, it was the second one when I was in Mongolia I got an email from Kyla Colin who I'm sure everyone is familiar with in, in Christchurch, an absolute force to be reckoned with. Wonderful, wonderful woman. And she said hey, a friend of or business acquaintance of mine is looking for someone to come in to their creative agency in, in Christchurch called Strategy and I thought you'd be great for it. Would you be interested? And I had, you know, come from journalism and sort of, I guess entrepreneurship, whatever was my only sort of experience, had never worked in or with a creative agency in my life. So sort of said classic, but thanks but, but no thanks initially. And she said, oh well, I think you should meet, I think you should meet with Jeff all the same, just come in and see him. So when I got back from Mongolia, this is all While I was in Mongolia filming this climate documentary. When I got back from Mongolia I went in and met Jeff who then became my boss at Strategy Creative and that's where I met Mark. So I was the strategic director there writing all the brand strategy for our. And Mark was the creative director, sort of leading the. Leading the charge on all things creative. So we worked together at Strategy Creative for about a year and that's. Yeah, that's how we sort of met, hit it off and then we peeled off again for about a year I think after that, did our own things. I moved to Vietnam for a bit and was still working on offcut my hat business at the time. But we stayed in touch, you know, we were sort of aligned on this idea of creating another agency that was not another agency. And so after about a year got back together and set up here in Sumner by the beach.

Nice. Yeah, it's a real terrible place that you've got your office having been here a few times.

Yeah, we had it.

How you actually get any work done? I don't know, I just built all day.

We're a creative agency. We just wave our hands.

Exactly. Yeah.

Eat ice cream. Yeah.

Stroking your luscious beard. Exactly. That's exactly. With your metaphorical pipe. I'm thinking turquoise. Turquoise.

I guess that's quite a well worn path of startup creative agencies. People working for a bigger one, more established one. Hey, let's go out, do our own thing. It'd be interesting to track the total number of agencies that have been spawned from larger ones. I'm guessing it's. Yeah, quite a few. I mean my dad was like that. He. He was working for like McCann Ericsson, WPP, like big, big global ad agencies in the 70s. Well late 60s. 70s and then. Yeah. Ended up spinning out into smaller and smaller companies and stuff like that. So yeah, sort of a well worn path.

No, 100% there is. Yeah, there are a lot of agencies. And you say. I think it's. It's absolutely well worn path. Yeah, that's the way it's. The way it's done.

And so. So what, what were you doing at uni? What course did you do at uni that has led you to. I mean, I think we'll start at university, see where the career. How did the career go? And then maybe look back before that, but yes. What did you do at uc?

Yeah, so I, I did my undergraduate. I started at uc, then I went and did my. The rest of my B. I did a BA basically, to answer your question. Finished it at Vic. So I did two years at Vic.

Right.

And then came back and actually did postgrad at. Back at UC Journalism.

Yep.

So, yeah, sort of after high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I went traveling for a year and it was through that year of travel I was kind of writing back in the day of email, I think it was pre Facebook and all that. I was writing these big long emails back to family and friends and all that kind of stuff, telling them about my travels. And one day my mum, who was very concerned that I was going to become a traveling bum for the rest of my life.

Maybe be a productive cog and in the great machine that is society.

Sort of, you know, over the phone call she kept saying, you know, what do you want to do when you. When you get back from your travels and all that. I said, I don't really know, I don't really know. And then one day she goes, well, what about become. What about journalism? You obviously like writing. What about journalism? And it really. Yeah, it really sort of struck a chord. I was like, yeah, that's a great call. So, long story short, I got back from my travels and. And knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I knew that the course I wanted to do was at UC was a postgraduate journalism course with Jim Tully and so did my ba. Yeah, across a little bit in Christchurch, but mainly in Wellington. Came back and did journalism at UC postgrad.

Nice. And so the ba, what was. Was there anything particular in. Yeah, that was. You do.

It was media studies and religious studies. So to do this postgraduate course you just had to have any degree and. Yeah, I sort of started with anthropology and then the religious studies department at VIC was so good that I just found it fascinating and ended up. Yeah, yeah, but it didn't really. It didn't really matter and I quite like that about journalism. This postgraduate course is that actually liked people to have as diverse a background possible. And I think that's a really key kind of, you know, necessity for journalists is just to have you have a degree in whatever you want to be a journalist.

Yeah, well, so, yeah, media studies and religious studies. Look on the Venn diagram. Where's the overlap?

I suppose you could argue that the Bible is one of the original forms of sort of journalism. Media story storytelling, I guess.

Yeah, exactly. No, I never thought of it that way. Yeah, I mean, I'm. Yeah, I'm. I'm sort of a religious or almost atheist and had sort of no intention or. Yeah, sort of. Y. No, no, Intention to. To get into religious studies. But like I say, I sort of ended up. You know what it's like in first year. You kind of just do a whole bunch of stuff and did a paper and just loved it and thought the department was awesome. And it's. It's basically a social science. It's obviously not. Not teaching anyone religion or. Or how to be like that, but. Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating topic.

Nice. Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah. Anthropology, because I. In my. I can just about remember my first year. I think I did psychology, philosophy, and then history was my chosen degree. So you had to do history.

I just wasn't mentally ready for philosophy. You know, turned up to the first tutorial and the professor goes, is this a question? And I'm just like, I.

Possibly. I don't know. I'm just not. My brain's not ready for this. I can just about drink beer and tie my shoelaces and play rugby. And that's where I'm stopping, I think, sir. So, yeah, I dropped that and did language and communication instead, which was a little bit easier on the brain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

Anthropology, philosophy. I've kind of been exploring some ideas of topics that I'd really like to, you know, be looking at. And yeah, that. Anthropology, philosophy, history, religion, theology, like, all of that, like, just. Yeah. Why do we almost. Like, why do we do what we do as humans?

Like social science. Fascinating. Yeah. And I. Yeah, possibly if I could go back and wind back the clock, I'd. I'd go and do history. I've fallen in love with history in more recent years. I love it. You know, all the reading. I do, I do, I read quite a lot, but it's all historical fiction. It's my favorite genre. So, you know, just.

Yeah.

Learning about history in a way that's kind of compelling with, you know, all the love stories and all that kind of stuff that's fictionalized and woven through. But I absolutely. I love history. It's such a. Such an important thing to understand. Yeah.

Have you gone to Dan Carlin's podcast? His history, you should check. So his. He's got a paid option and a free option. Okay. There's a bunch of his content for free on the usual podcast platforms, but his. His episodes go for like five hours. And he. The one that I really enjoyed was the whole Battle of Thermopylae. Spartans, Persians. So he, He. I'm pretty sure, if I remember correctly, the first one is the Battle of Thermopylae. But then he goes back for I feel like maybe three to five episodes. And he takes you back almost like a thousand years, the beginning of the Persian empire and then brings you back to the, to the, to the battle.

Awesome.

Yeah, it's for people. I don't understand people. History is boring.

So how is that boring?

How can why you are here today and how you're here today be boring? And also it almost annoys me when you see, I mean I did medieval history, so the whole Viking stuff, really love it. And you go, why have you had to make up some of these characters? The real characters were possibly even more impressive than the sort of fictional one you've had to makes. Just doesn't sound it.

No, history, history is fascinating. History is absolutely fascinating. Yeah. And, and you know, I think a lot another common thing that New Zealanders says go, yeah, but we've got no interesting history in New Zealand. You know, it's all in Europe and all that. That's not true. A few years ago we were doing a project for a family near Kaikota who've got this farm and they.

This, this farm waikikini has got 800 year old pa from Waitaha, people who I think even predated Mori by sort of slightly predated and then merged into becoming a Mori.

Yeah.

And it's just fascinating, you know, like there's, there's, there's paintings that are drawings that are like 800 years old here in Aotearoa. So there is, there is plenty of obviously interesting history and Mali history.

There's a proper rabbit hole, you can go down that one. There's a guy, Freddie Silver, he has done a bunch of research on the Waitah.

Oh cool.

Controversially, possibly Celtic people here in New Zealand with the white heart because they talk about this giant race of green eyed, red headed, blonde headed people who they were trading with and they were living in, you know, living in pretty good harmony with them. And there's, there's a few documentaries on YouTube where this one lady, she is of, she is, you know, white to her, she's white to her elder and she has got red hair, green eyes but Maori complexion and she's like, I am a descendant of these giants, you know, the giants as they were referred to.

Yeah, right.

I'm six, yeah, six or four, blue eyes, blonde hairs. Like I possibly, you know, I obviously come from the uk, but yes, really, really interesting and Freddie's got some interesting theories on some areas but his, his research on, on the historic, he actually is moving to New Zealand to further his research on on that, he thinks possibly. So in the White Tradition, Castle Hill, which is this amazing rock sort of feature just outside. So what is it? Northwest of Christchurch, I guess. Yeah. On the way to the outset. Somewhere around there. Yeah. The White Heart believed that that was the center of the universe. Oh, wow. For them. And so there's this. It's like you say, the more you go down the history rabbit hole, the more you get to these theories. And I actually think sometimes, you know, the whole creation myth stories, like, yeah, sure, they might be fables, but also there's some stuff that you go, well, that's really interesting because that's in this. You know, this people have that tradition, but the same story is also in Samaria and it's also in South America. And how do they all have that same tradition from 4,000 years ago when they never met each other? How. You can't be curious and interested by that shit. I. I'm sorry, I don't understand you.

No, no, I'm with you. I'm with you big time. Yeah, absolutely fascinating.

Yeah. So when you were at school, from a young age, was writing, were you. Were you in the playground, like, for two kids about to have a fight? So tell me, how do you feel about the fight?

Were you that kid? Where did this sort of skill. What was your.

It's pretty funny because I don't think I was particularly strong at English or writing at school. I think I was. Okay. I was probably stronger or more interested in the sciences, to be fair. Yeah. So I loved my. Loved my physics love. Loved maths as well. So. Yeah, I honestly don't know. I just. Yeah. Maybe I've just got too much. Too much to say or prefer to be fair. I prefer to be doing the questions like what you're doing right now. I'm not really used to. On the receiving end.

How do you like it now, Mr. Jill?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think curiosity is. I often say this. I think it's obviously absolutely crucial skill for a journalist. You just got to be curious. Right. But I also think it's just one of the most important skills for anyone. I don't have any children, but if I had children, I think curiosity and creativity would be the two. Oh, and then obviously empathy and kindness and all the other stuff. Obviously, don't be an asshole as well. But in terms of, like, skills to, yeah. Better yourself in a kind of career and personal development sort of way, I reckon curiosity and creativity are pretty crucial. Creativity in the way of just thinking outside the square to solve problems, find Like, a lot of people just. Just really struggle to kind of. Yeah. Think a little bit laterally to. To solve issues, solve problems that they haven't sort of overcome before. And. And then curiosity, I just think is. It's actually.

Yeah.

It's just such an important attribute to have to. To learn, but also to be a kind of a likable person. If you're a curious person, you tend to ask a lot of questions, and people like to. People like to be asked stuff in general.

In general, apart from journalists being interviewed. Yeah. But not being interviewed on podcasts.

Exactly. Like two curious.

Two curious people. Yes. This could go for hours. I can flip these questions to you.

I would right now.

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah. Curiosity. I. I reflect on that. It's. It's an interest. Again, from a social science perspective, you could argue that curiosity is actually a very dangerous evolutionary concept because, like, what. What happens if I smash these two rocks against my head? Oh, I don't know. Let's find out. Or I wonder what's over the edge of that cliff. Or, you know, possibly the first human who was like, oh, I see those birds fly. Wonder if I can do that. Oh, it turns out I can't. Yeah.

Yeah.

So he's like, at its extreme, curiosity is potentially quite dangerous. And. But I think it's almost like. I don't know whether you've read any of that or listen to any of Matthew Walker's content. He's like the sleep guru, and he talks about how, again, sleep is actually quite dangerous evolutionary tool because for. For any mammal to be out of, you know, sparkle for eight hours is actually really risky, particularly when every other animal that could eat us is pretty much nocturnal. Yeah. His theory is sleep must be so vital evolutionary that the, the lack of safety or the danger that you're in while you're sleeping trumps, you know, the not sleeping. And I kind of wonder if curiosity is. Is kind of almost in that boat. It's like if you push it too far, it's, you know, it's the classic, oh, what. What's that moving in the bushes on, you know, on the savannah? Oh, it's a lion. Too late. Versus the bushes is moving. That's enough. I'm curious enough to know now that actually. And I guess over time. Yeah. So, yeah, I just find it interesting.

No, it's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, and you look at children, they're so curious. You know, babies, stuff like that, Grabbing stones and.

Yeah.

You know, and it just gets them out of us. I Guess as we get older, maybe as we get wiser so that we're not chasing lights. But, yeah, it is. It is still an important attribute, being curious.

Yeah, no, totally. And so were you. Were you entrepreneurial at school, in uni? Did you have, like, really?

Yeah, no, I guess, yeah, always was. And, you know, I remember was my best mate in high school buying MacBooks, you know, pulling all of our money together that we'd spent, you know, that we'd saved over years and years doing our sort of weekend jobs and putting all of our money into buying a MacBook because we thought we could make a couple hundred bucks off selling it back here. That was kind of the extent of my entrepreneurship. And that obviously always ended terribly because we hadn't factored for customs, bills and all sorts of stuff. And so, yeah, and shipping times and all the other stressful stuff when you put all your money together. So now, there was a bit of that then in uni. Yeah, we had a sort of. I did a uni hall and a few friends and I had. Were always what we called scheming and scheming to kind of come up with business plans and stuff like that. But, yeah, nothing. Nothing really of any success. But I always had that sort of mindset, and I think I always knew I wanted to go and do something of my own. And sometimes I do think back and go, oh, you know, hear all these obviously success stories of people who dropped out of uni, who didn't go to uni and started these amazing multimillion dollar businesses and all that. And you. Part of me goes, oh, did I waste my time doing sort of, you know, four years at uni or three or four years at uni, and then four years as a journalist and all that kind of stuff. But I think fundamentally not like it was all very enriching experiences and all that kind of stuff.

Totally. And it's. It's the classic sort of sliding doors like you'll never know.

Yeah.

And I think you know Stephen Mo.

Yeah.

Seeds podcast fame and local lawyer extraordinaire, or partner in a law firm. He asked me once on his podcast, like, any regrets? It's like, well, well, no, because everything that you've done has led you to be who you are today. And you wouldn't be who you are today if you had a different path. And you would never. You would never know what that. You know, in a. In a parallel quantum universe, there's another term, another Adrian, on a different podcast where you're interviewing me because I did something different. And you did something different and.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think you can spend your whole life thinking about that. There was. Because you've got. You've got a bit of a French Connection. There was a French movie I watched years ago, and I cannot remember the name of the movie, but in one of the scenes, one character asked the other, oh, do you regret that? And. And pretty sure it's. The woman says, there's no such thing as regrets. There's only things you did or didn't do. And I just said that just really sums it up. It's like you either did or you didn't do it. And.

Yeah.

Why? Where you are. And if you overthink, could have, should have, woulda.

Yeah. 100. 100. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah, there's a great. And I'll bastardize it. There's a great rap song by ASAP Brock that talks about. It's called Lucy, and it talks about this woman who someone asked her at the end and goes, oh, you know, do you have any. Do you have any dreams? And she goes, no, a dream is something that you want to do but never pursue. But I've always done, you know, always done what I wanted to pursue since day one, basically. And I obviously can't remember the exact lyrics, but, yeah, I love that sentiment as well. She's like, no, I've got no dreams because I've. I've just. Everything I want to do, I've done. Yeah, yeah, you think about. But you don't actually do. That's. That's. That's quite a good philosophy. I really like that song.

Nice. I'll check it out.

Yeah, yeah. So I should really learn that. I should learn it. Bring it up some guys. I'll wrap it for me. I can. I can wrap it.

So. So uni. So uni, then. Traveling.

No, travel. Yeah, school, travel, uni.

School travel, uni.

Right. Yeah. And then.

And. And so getting into TV3 was that easy process, like, you had the degree, presumably. Like, do they have connections to help you feed in?

Yeah, yeah, I was. I have never been afraid to ask for what I want. And so there was at TV3. Sorry, at. In journalism school, the head of news, a guy called Mark Jennings at the time, came and spoke to our class. And after class, I went and chased him outside the class and said, hey, I want to come and work for you. And he said, sweet, send me an email. And, yeah, to his credit, actually followed through with it. So I flipped him an email. Yep, come up inside two. I think I did two, like internships or two placements at TP3 over the sort of uni holidays mid year and then towards the end of the year. And yeah, it was awesome experience like that. Just thrown straight into the deep end. I think on my very first one, he goes, yeah, go into the Christchurch office. And this was the year of the earthquakes, by the way, as well. This was 2011. And he goes, yeah, go into the Christchurch office for five days or whatever. Went in, I think day three. So pike river, it obviously all happened, you know, months earlier at the same time as the earthquake. This is probably mid year by this point. And yeah, so I go into the crushed office, get sort of, you know, brought in straight into the. And that's the great thing about journalism and news. Like there's just this real culture of sharing what, you know, with the juniors and all that kind of stuff. There's no. Yeah, there's no kind of pretension or anything like that. I don't think that everyone's super giving of their time and all that. And so anyways, I'm in the Crossroads office and then a guy, Jeff Hampton, who's an absolute stalwart of the journalism scene at the time, had to go over to the west coast to cover pike river. And they're like, do you want to come, Adrian? So this is like day two of my sort of placement there. I said, oh, yeah, cool. So go over. And I can't even remember, to be honest, what. What was the story at that time? But something had sort of. Yeah, obviously park river coverage was. Was ongoing at that time. And then I spent the night in Greymouth and John Campbell was down for Campbell Live. And we're having dinner with him. I'm sitting right next to him and he's asking me what I'm doing. I'm like, oh, I'm just a journalism school student. And all these experiences are pretty. Pretty enriching when you're. Yeah, when you're a young journalism student and you're holding. And then I was holding the light and the freezing cold for John Campbell as he was doing his live cross on Campbell Live and all that and pretty epic experiences. So, yeah, did that first. Then I did a Same again for the next holidays in Auckland. And then at the end of that, Mark goes, you've got a job, you. My journalism school finished on November 4th. And he said, you're up. You know, that's Friday, Monday, first thing, November 7th, or whatever it was. You got a job in Auckland.

Boom. I think that's. Yeah, I Mean, I come from a background in sales and we do do some sales training and coaching for B Corpse. And I often say to people it's so easy to be great because you just actually need to reach out and ask and then follow up and. Yeah, because 99 of people won't even reach out and ask. And the 1% that do reach out and ask once won't follow up 10 times, 100. And it's so easy just to, just to do that. But it takes obviously a layer of confidence and I guess, yeah, mindset, that's what stops most people. But yeah, it reminds me, I lived in Australia for a year, left the uk, went to Aussie three year, went back to the uk, did a year thinking to New Zealand and I met, ended up living with this Aussie family. And the dad of the family I was living with was an ex army guy and he had a mate of his who was an ex army guy, Gary Butterfield. And he just said, oh, you know, he came up to me and shook hands, said, g'. Day. And he said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm just sort of traveling around. And he said, look, just keep smiling, shaking hands and saying, good day, good things will come your way. And I'm just like such a great believer in that. Just, hey, can I, can you help me with it? Like if, I mean, I had a young lad yesterday, I say young lad, I think he's just a recent graduate through a. Made of a mate. Hey, he's looking to get into medical device sales. That's what I used to do. He's like, he just wants some, he just wants some advice. I was like, sure, I'll have a chat with him. I said to him, look, the fact that you've reached out to a couple of people, I said, just get on LinkedIn, connect with all the CEOs and regional managers of all the medical device companies that you're interested in. Send them a connection request, find their email, send them an email and say, hey, could I please talk to somebody in your organization about how I get to this, into this industry?

You'll get 100%. 100%. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think, I think you're dead right. I think especially New Zealanders, we are a little bit shy where we're sort of reserved or don't want to inconvenience anyone or come across as pushy or annoying. But you know, there is obviously, and there are people who are, you know, I'm sure we both get targeted by people who are spammy or whatever through LinkedIn and all that. But if you're not. If you're not spammy, if you're not annoying. Respectful of people's time. Yep. People always respond to it well. Or most people do and some people don't. And you have to be prepared to get. People ignore you or tell you, that's fine, that's fine. Who cares? Yeah, right. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. And, and, and you talking about the. The younger lad as well. You've got a real advantage when you're young. You can be a bit more annoying than maybe I can be.

You get a bit more latitude. Yeah, yeah. You should know better than this, Adrian. Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

It's the 10th time you've called me today. Now you're getting. When you're young, you can kind of. You can kind of get away with that stuff more. But no, 100%. Just be persistent. Be. Yeah, just, just and, and absolutely ask for what you want to get. And it generally. Generally comes good if you're go about it the right way.

Nice.

Yeah.

So TV3, then, documentary maker.

Yeah, that's right.

You quit TV3 to go traveling or. Yeah. How did, how did that all happen?

Yeah, kind of. So, yeah, I was at TV3 for four years as a journalist and yeah, yeah, really enjoyed it. Loved it, loved it. But also knew I sort of wanted to, yeah, do it, do more stuff. Kind of maybe get into business or just build something that was my own, you know. So, yeah, I interviewed. I was the climate change and environment reporter at TV3. And as part of that, I found out about this guy called Dan Price, another great Welshman who was cycling. So he's Welsh, but lived in New Zealand for years. Was cycling from Christchurch to Paris to raise awareness about the 2015. Was it now? Paris?

Yeah, Paris Court. And so I was like, oh, that's cool, that's a great story. So reached out to him, did an interview with him. He was already in Indonesia by the time I'd sort of gotten onto the story. So we did a video interview like this and ran on the, on the news. And I sort of flicked him an email afterwards and said, oh, mate, I'm, you know, really impressed by what you're doing. If you need a hand with anything. Super keen to. Yeah, to get involved with this kind of stuff. And then he sort of flipped me an email a couple of weeks later and said, hey, I've actually just got some funding to do a documentary on climate change from the Undp got some funding from the undp. Yeah, to do a documentary in Bangladesh and he's like, I'm a climate, climate scientist, I've got no idea how to make documentaries. Do you want to, do you want to get involved? And I sort of said yeah, I don't really know how to make documentaries, TV stories for a minute 30 but I don't really know how to do 2530 minute documentaries. But of course I'm keen. So I went over to Bangladesh. Had never met this Dan in person. Met him over there. He's become an absolute great mate, best mate since. And yeah, we, we filmed this documentary in Bangladesh together with another couple of very, very talented videographers, a couple of young guys, Michael and Sam, who have since also become great mates who came over from Christchurch and they were like, they're like 16 at the time or something like that. It's absurd. Or 17. They just finished high school and I get to the airport and I'd only met them once before as well and their parents are kind of talking about. I was, I was 22 or 23 and their parents are kind of talking.

To me like you're in charge.

Taking these two 17 year olds to Bangladesh to meet a climate scientist that.

You'Ve never actually met. Yeah, yeah, this is your sketch. This has got child trafficking written all over it.

And now it was awesome. It was awesome. We were there for two or three weeks I think and yeah, produced a documentary on sea level rise called 30 million. 30 million because with 1 meter sea level rise, 30 million people are going to be displaced in Bangladesh obviously. Yeah, shockingly big numbers and going to the sort of the front lines I guess of climate change and, and it's the country that's probably going to be most affected in terms of numbers of people affected. And yeah, it was, it was an awesome full on but awesome experience.

And the UN sort of, yeah, looked after us while we're there and, and made sure we got into all the people that we wanted and yeah, took us to the, to the coast and all that to, to meet people on the front lines of climate change. So yeah, good experience. And then did the same again the year afterwards and Mongolia this time also.

For the US with the same, same crew.

Yeah, yeah, just the four. Yeah, yeah. And that was on the melting glaciers and Mongolia which are a source of like a major water source for the summer months when the glaciers melt. That's where a lot of Mongolians get their water from. But because they're melting too much now, there's Going to be. Not. Not Going to be that kind of summer.

Yeah.

Stockpile of water.

Wow. Highlights of. I had a bite of mine. She from uni? Catherine. I don't think she's a listener. Maybe I should. I should tag her in this episode. She used to. Lovely. Call it Mongolia.

Mongolia.

We just thought it sounded cooler. Very often I've watched Mongolia. Where's that? It's kind of close to Mongolia.

Love it.

But, yeah, highlights of the trips. Mongolia is a place. It's possibly on a list of mine that I'd like. I'd like. Well, there's another rabbit. There's lots of Internet rabbit holes with you on this one. Have you. Have you or did you experience any of the Mongolian throat singers while you were in Mongolia?

Yeah, sadly, we didn't experience any firsthand, but I like. We used the soundtrack of the film.

That's epic.

I would have loved to see.

Yeah.

It's so incredible.

Yeah. You talk about that sort of depth of culture and just that history is like. Yeah. There's just. I know when people say, like, New Zealand's got a history, I think it just. We're not connected to that history.

Yeah.

But there is a depth in some of these places where you just kind of go, okay, this is just super cool. Yeah.

Yeah. It's unreal. I mean, you know, I was talking about, you know, loving history and reading historical fictions.

The.

The one I'm reading at the moment is the fifth book and I think it's. I think it's the last one. I think it's the last one I'm going to read. As much as I love it, like, books like this. But it's. The author, I think is on Con Eggleston or something like that. I think he's Welsh as well. Maybe. Maybe Irish contact. Anyways, it's on Genghis Khan and his conquest of basically, well, not the world, but, you know, most of it. He got as far as, I think in the third book without ruining it for anyone who might read them or. Yeah. I think they get as far as Budapest, basically, like knocking on.

Yeah.

The next stop was Vienna.

Yeah.

It's unbelievable. Took over all of and all that. So, yeah, it's fascinating history. So, yeah. Mongolia, crazy, crazy rich culture. Super fascinating. Brutally cold. We were there, I think not even in the middle of winter and it was negative 30 degrees. It got down to. It was one of the guys.

Because of the cold and it was absolutely brutal. I've never felt cold anywhere close to that.

Like, just like to your Bones.

Absolute to your bones. Wearing two puffer jackets, two thermals, you know, Jersey. Yeah. Like, I don't know, probably seven or eight layers. Wearing two pairs of gloves, the thickest gloves you can find. And you can. It's like someone's jamming needles in your.

In your hand.

Unbelievable. But beautiful country. Like, absolutely stunning country. I think it's got the most extreme weather.

Variation out of any country because I think it gets like plus 40 degrees and then in winter it gets negative 40. It's got the highest. Yeah, the most range. Yeah, range of any country that's, yeah.

Pretty insane. So trees. Yeah. And then back. Back to New Zealand then.

Yeah, back to New Zealand. Yeah. Did another little short stint at TV3, I think it was just before Mongolia actually. It's all a bit of a blur, but, yeah, floating around doing a bunch of different. A bunch of different stuff. Then I think I started. Then I sort of joined a business incubator here in Christchurch, Lightning Lab for another business that I. Idea that I had that failed. That was a bunch of different ideas that morphed and morphed and then. And then sort of flopped. And then during that time I started offcut. Yeah. So that was an idea I had when I went to my.

My dad used to run a curtain wholesaler. No. Yeah, curtain fabric business. And went. Went to his warehouse one day and saw a room full of off cuts that basically were discarded and no good to him and sort of most of them ended up in the, in the, in the tip. So I said, oh, you know, can I take these and do something with them? And he said, yeah, for sure. So took them and started getting them made into caps. This one's a bit, but wasted.

It's the.

One of my favorites that I wear all the time. But yeah, and then was doing that for about four years, I think, before I sold offcut during lockdown three years ago.

Yep.

Yeah, so that was. Yeah, that was my sort of first. First foray into entrepreneurship or first sort of remotely successful kind of foray into.

Yeah, yeah, nice. And I mean, it's cool. Cool business idea. Were you sort of driven. Well, I guess before we ask that question. So have you always been socially and environmentally conscious? Have you. Have you been like a purpose driven human from day one? Because obviously the, you know, did you choose to sort of go down the climate change reporting route or were they like, oh, Adrian, you kind of like the stuff we'd like you to do it. You clearly, you've clearly got an interest in doing good and highlighting. Doing Good. Yeah. Is that again, if you look at like your school reports, was it like, you know, Adrian is always in the playground cleaning up after the kids. Have you always been like that or.

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I mean, yeah, I think so. I think, you know, both my parents, but I'd say especially my mum, has always been very, very. Yeah, very big on, you know, we never. Were we allowed to throw food out in the home, you know, which I, I really appreciate now as an adult, as, you know, I'm big on that as well. Food waste and, you know, reluctantly, obviously, like everyone, because I just live with my girlfriend and cooking for two is not always easy and sometimes I throw out the odd piece of food and I feel really guilty because I know Mum would be absolutely disapproving of that. So little things like that and much bigger things, you know, like just, just in general, you know, Mum is huge on, on how we consume and, and not consuming too much and recycling and composting and, you know, plastics and all that kind of stuff. So I think, yeah, she. She definitely got me on that, on that sort of buzz. I think she took me to go see Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth when I was. I was probably 16 when it came out. 15, 16. And that really had a big, big impact on me. I just really sort of, you know, obviously being old enough at that age to kind of appreciate the, the magnitude of the problem. I don't think I'd ever heard of climate change before then, but just remember sort of walking out of there and being like, how are we not talking about this all the time, every day? Like, this is insane if this is, if this is true, this documentary. So, yeah, that would, that had a huge impact on me. So, yeah, I think, I think probably, yeah, like, definitely grew up in a family that has been always aware of these things. And I think definitely my mum had a massive impact on, on my sort of care for the environment. Yeah.

Yes. It's just always interesting to sort of find out because I think, as I say to most guests, some people kind of have always had the lens of doing good throughout their life, whereas others more like myself were, you know, yeah, at school we go do some volunteering, whatever, but it wasn't really endemic across the, the organization. And, you know, for me, the path that I was set on, you know, doing the medical repping was. It was all about maximizing personal, you know, financial return. That was, that was the lens of, of my upbringing. My dad was like a huge, you Know, he worked for himself. But the whole idea was like, you just got to try and be better. You know, that whole neoliberal, just like, fight your own game, earn tons of money, be successful, be successful so that the school can say, yeah, look at all our alumni who go off and do amazing things. So the idea of kind of doing good came to me pretty late in life when I sort of realized the effect that business is having, you know, mainly negatively in terms of some of its externalities and output. So yeah, just, it was just interesting to know.

Yeah.

I guess to know how we can be better parents and to maybe guide and I think kids these days definitely have a better sense, I think of people. Yeah, totally. Every time I sort of say to my daughter, you know that that thing you're looking at buying online, that's probably been made by a girl the same age as you, she's like, yeah, but it's cheap. I'm like, yeah, but really, you know, come on. I'd rather we, we give you some money to buy the better made version from a reputable place that's going to last you longer and then you can actually sell it secondhand and get some money back rather than buying it for $5 on online store 100.

And you know, kids have, kids have got an amazing ability to understand sort of what's fair and what's not as well. You know, you don't have to like sugarcoat it for them or, or whatever in a way that generally. Yeah, I don't know, sometimes they're, they're a lot less selfish than, than adults are. So you know, you explain those concepts to them and they totally get it. So yeah, I think it's something that has been kind of part of who I've wanted to be for, for a long time. I used to volunteer at Trade Aid during high school as well. So the.

The kind of, I guess the idea of using business as a force for good has been something that I've, I've always liked the idea of, you know, and, and not just doing handouts and stuff like that, but going just like you say, if you, if you choose to buy better, if you choose to buy better products and if you choose to ensure that when you're buying a coffee, you know, or whatever it is that the producing it, getting paid a fair price then, then that's a very sustainable way for everyone to just, yeah. Make sure that everyone's getting a sort of semi decent, fair crack at everything.

Nice. No, perfect.

So yeah, off cut. And then so Trump Forest when did that pop up?

Yeah, so that was quite cool.

I just remember that just exploding. Certainly, you know, locally, regionally, on Facebook. It's like this is such a, such a tongue in cheek but kind of cool.

It was. No, it was very therapeutic for, for us. We were so. Yeah, so, so Dan, this Welshman who, yeah, since become best mate who I met in, in Bangladesh for this documentary, we obviously were always sort of passionate about climate change and constantly scheming about ways that we can do more public campaigns around climate change and that kind of thing. And then Trump. So we're like, shit, this is a guy who is the president of, you know, well, he's the most powerful man on, on the planet and is saying that climate change is a Chinese hoax and you know that it's not true and all that kind of stuff. Pretty, pretty hard pill to swallow for people who are like us who are trying to devote at that time our lives to raising awareness about climate change. So we're like, what do we do? Like we're in, in bottom ass end of the world in Christchurch. What can we do? And so y. Dan and another great mate of ours, Jeff, who's actually American, Jeff Willis, so had a even more sort of, I guess vested interest in it all. But yeah, based here in Christchurch at the time as well. The three of us got together and we're like, what, yeah, what can we do? And the best idea we could come up with in the matter in a space of just a few days because we wanted to kind of move quickly was Trump Forest. And the idea was to offset Trump's ignorance when it comes to climate change. And so yeah, we just launched a website on Squarespace built in a couple of days. Very, very rinky dink. You know, we never registered as a charity or anything like that because we, we, we couldn't like we all had full time jobs and all that kind of stuff. So we partnered with a great charity called Tres that Count and we said, cool, we'll just integrate your payment gateway that way. We're not handling any money. We're not, you know, we don't want to touch money at all because that gets complicated and register as a trader and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, just sort of pieced together this pretty crappy Squarespace website and basically managed to get a whole heap of media coverage. So we had zero budget, like we had literally no money at all and managed to get, yeah, worldwide coverage because I think we're sort of like say a little bit tongue in cheek. I think Kind of nailed the. Nailed the messaging and yeah, obviously resonated with a lot of people, which was. Which is awesome. And I think we got to one, one and a half million trees by the end. That ran for about a year and a half. And I was manually every night getting these CSV spreadsheets, downloading them, reformatting them and then re uploading them to Google Maps to show these trees have been planted around the world. I think it went. I think it was like people had donated in 120 different countries or something insane like that.

Or.

Yeah, maybe 80 countries. We got articles in Al Jazeera, the Guardian.

All those sort of viral, kind of upworthy and.

Yeah. God, what are they called? Oh, you know, basically everyone name it. Yeah, yeah, it went. It went proper viral, which was. Which was awesome because it. It led to like. Yeah, it was. I think it all up. It was, yeah, 1.5 million trees and something like $250,000 donated to plant trees to sort of, I guess. Yeah, kind of take a stand against Trump's climate ignorance, which was kind of cool. Really cool.

Yeah, it's super cool. So we. Well, I interviewed Elena Keith from an agency in Auckland called seven who. Oh, yeah, cool. And we. We were talking about the, you know, how styles of communication, advertising, you know, advertising is a force for good and how typically, I think key really good Kiwi campaigns, but I think globally, the best campaigns typically have an element of humor, tongue in cheek. I think there's something innately human, you know, as opposed to, you know, buy this thing. It's. I look at like the perfume and aftershave adverts, like, so formulaic. They're all. It's almost a parody because you're so. You know, when my daughter had. She had a. Something in her eye, like a gunk in her eye. And as she was walking around going, look at my eyes, I was like, you sound like one of those adverts. Like, you can always like. Like Dunkalicious by Daisy Jones. And it's like. It's like. But yeah, it's. I guess it was. This was the beginning of you possibly thinking about the agency type stuff, you know, because I just think about. Because what you did was. Was essentially you were almost running a campaign for a charity.

Yeah.

Do you know what sort of percentage increase in donations they got per month through your campaign? Because clearly Trees the Count established they've got some adverts going out there. It's just really interesting to sort of see how you put a spin on it. You. You put A campaign around went viral, massive attention. Whereas if they just said, hey, we think Trump's not very nice, we'd like you to plant a tree. Yeah, yeah, possibly would have got no cut through.

Nah. 100. 100, I think. Yeah, I think definitely sort of mine and, and Dan and Jeff who. So Dan and Jeff had done this Pole to Paris campaign where that, you know, he'd cy. Cycled from Christchurch to. To Paris and that had gotten heaps of media coverage as well. He was doing interviews all over the world. So Dan had an amazing appreciation of like the power of. Of getting media coverage. And then Jeff was the one who was actually doing all the liaising forum. He was kind of the wrangler and he was absolutely was on social media as well.

Back.

Back in those days when you could still kind of, you know, make stuff go viral on social media or get good, good traction on social media.

And I think it was a combination of that really. It was like sort of our appreciation of. We sort of knew that the only way we were going to get it to work was if we could. If we could hack into like a media narrative that worked well and I think like this whole narrative of like three. Three dudes in Christchurch, you know, calling out the American president, which is. Yeah. And we're very pointed in our language. You know, I think, think, you know. Yeah, if. If we were bigger or in the us we possibly could have got sued for defamation. But now probably not. But yeah, we're very, very. Yeah, very very pointed in our language. And I think it just sort of resonated well because, like I said, it was kind of humorous and. Yeah. And people kind of like the sort of David versus Goliath sort of. Yeah, yeah, 100% that we hacked into and. Yeah, then. And then when. When things start going well.

Yeah, just people kind of enjoy being part of the movement and then start getting coverage and all that and it's a bit of a snowball effect. Yeah.

Nice. Super cool. Yeah, I think it's one of those good times when that. That famous website, maps without New Zealand on it. It's probably a good one that. Yeah, POTUS can't find. Who are these guys? Like, where are they? I don't know. We can't even find them on the map, so.

Yeah.

Okay. Leads and turn. It'll be all right.

Just another. What do you call them? Just another country or whatever.

Yeah, the classic one. The. The Welsh rugby team had a. I think this was in like the late. It might have been the 99 World Cup. Or maybe the world. Condolences. Yeah, well, we. Yeah, well, and to you, I suppose for part of your heritage, you had a dollar each way, though, in terms of potential outcomes for the World Cup. Yeah. There was an Aussie coach as part of the wealth setup when, When Graham Henry was the coach and they. The question, I think. I think it was. I think Wales were facing New Zealand. And he said, the, the reporter asked him, so what. What do you think your chances are? And he said, ah, well, yeah, as good as any. New Zealand's just Epoxy island in the middle of the South Pacific. And there was uproar from the New Zealand media and he was asked to. To you know, make an apology and a retraction. And he came up to the, the next media event. He said, okay, yeah, sorry, you. I. I was actually wrong. Yeah. It's three proxy islands in the South Pacific, not one.

So Australian.

But, but tugging Jake. Yeah. I love a bit of humor I think you have to use.

Otherwise, seriously, it's pretty boring.

Yeah.

Yeah.

100.

Very cool.

So, yes, you seem to have had this theme of doing good. And as you sort of already articulated the idea of having your own entity that you could use as a force for good. So. Yeah. When did. Sort of. Well, when you and Mark started. Not another. Did you have an. Did you have an intention of like, okay, are you going to work for good brands?

Yeah.

Or I mean, I know what it's like with a lot of consulting businesses to begin with. No clients. A bad client because. Yeah, we just need to get. And I think there's. I think it's reasonable that, you know, you got to pay the bills and you've got to kiss some frogs before you. You find a prince or princess. Yes. So what was that sort of like 100?

No, totally. But then I think, you know, with. With Mark, we're. We're super aligned. So from day one, actually, B Corp came up very early on in our, in our sort of business journey as a, As a conversation, and we said we'd love to do it. And then. And then sort of like probably thousands of businesses. Do you kind of start the BIA process and go, holy moly, okay, this is really in depth. And then you kind of. Yeah, you park it because you're just trying to get a business off the ground and you kind of realize as well, in your first year or two, it's all pretty meaningless because you've got no baselines to measure against. You can't really. Yeah, it's sort of a tough thing to do to kind of go, yeah, we're reducing X or Y or we've got a policy on Z because you just kind of don't have anything. So yeah, so it was always something that we wanted to do and we looked at very early on. Then sort of gone, yep, too hard basket for now. But I think in terms of values and the work that we do, we did have conversations pretty early on.

And we'd work together before at strategy and we sort of knew that we were aligned all on that stuff without sort of having to say it, which was cool as well. And then I think, yeah, pretty early on we're like, yep, sort of fossil fuel companies is a hard no for us unless it's specifically to work on a project that they might have. Have around renewable energy potentially would consider it. So that, that was cool. So we sort of, you know, wrote that down and we've. Yeah, we've turned down work over the years when we started as well. I don't feel like we ever compromised our ethics. There were a couple of clients. Yeah, not like, not. Not really. We've, we're just. Yeah, we've sort of. Yeah, like you say you have to pay the bills, but I don't think you should ever compromise your ethics. You should always be sort of proud of the work that you do. And.

And it is, it is a bit gray. Like over the years we've turned down maybe three or four sort of reasonably sized projects, like actually quite large projects and when sort of things are a little bit tougher. Like this year, you know, things have been a bit flatter just generally in the market and all that kind of stuff. And we've turned down. I think two projects come to mind this year that we just sort of didn't agree with. One was nice sort of intensive farming and the other I think was in it mining. Yeah. Or no, it was another fossil fuel company. Yeah, we just, we just reply. We said thank you, but no, that's, it's just. Yeah, it's just not what we do. So it's important to do it well to us. It's important to a lot of people. They don't care. But to us it's important and I'd rather be proud of the work that I do rather than kind of take the easy money. And both those projects were probably easy money and like as good as done, you know. And like I say, when, when you've got staff to feed, you know, or staff to pay and all that kind of stuff, it gets progressively harder to To. But I guess also the more you say no and the more you kind of show the kind of work that you want to do through the work that you're doing, the more you attract that kind of work as well. So if you keep saying yes to not the right kind of work, well, you might find yourself then, you know, five, 10 years, you're still doing that kind of work because people go, oh cool. They've done, they've got lots of experience with fossil fuel companies or with intensive farming companies. And that's, that's not what we want to project. So kind of, I guess long term does maybe make sense financially as a business decision as well.

Yep. No, that's cool. Yeah. And I think in your sector, sort of agency marketing companies increasingly, you know, there's a handful that we, we have worked with or are working with where they're all the obvious decision is client selection.

Yeah.

You know, whereas I think for, for us, you know, we're slightly more. Well, you know, we want to work with any company that wants to be better.

Yeah.

But obviously there are some hard no's in terms of. There are just some organizations that can't be a big corp. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think it's becoming increasingly common that agencies. Digital marketing.

Yeah.

Branding, it's like. Yeah, actually, no, we don't want to work with you. Yeah.

Especially when, yeah, 100% especially when you're in our industry as a creative agency or as an advertising agency. Like you're, you're, you're actively helping to present this brand better and this business better and you're actually helping them to sell more effectively. So if you're sort of ethically against what they do, then it's a pretty, yeah, it's a, it's a pretty kind of shit position to be in, I'd say to be pushing something that you don't agree with ethically. So. Yeah.

And you're not gonna, not gonna deliver your best work if you're.

No, no.

Psychologically engaged with the end product and the results. So. Yeah, no one's getting a, getting a win out of it. Apart from your bank balance. Like you say. Yeah, it's not worth it in the world. It.

That's it.

So.

Yeah, so no, not, not always easy, but I think, I think kind of important to stay true and, and you know, business partnerships and stuff like that, like super important to be values aligned. I'd say like anyone who's, who's looking to start a business or bring a partner on board, like make sure that your values aligned because. Yeah, I think that could, that could have led to a lot of problems. If I was a hard no on, on potential work and Mark was a hard yes, then it's like, you know, when you're 50, 50, what. Who, who decides? And if I'm saying project, then, you know, am I responsible then for, for the business being in the, you know, whatever. Like sort of being at a deficit of what that project value is worth or, you know, it is, it is hard. So being aligned on that kind of stuff from. From the get go is pretty crucial.

100%. And so. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about the, the B Corp journey. What was that, what was that like?

Yeah, cool. So, yeah, so like I said, sort of thought about it right from the start, then probably parked it for a couple of years and then up again maybe two years ago. And I think we sort of battled with it for probably about six months by ourselves. Didn't. Didn't make a heap of progress. Then reached out to you and obviously. Yeah, we've known each other for years and don't know why we didn't do it sooner. I think we, like, we had. We'd let you know. And you're like, yep, absolutely. And then we're like, oh, well, let's just, let's just dip our toes and see what the process is. And started doing it. And then yeah, just kind of realize that is, yeah, obviously a ton of work, which is good. It should be. And then so, yeah, you came on board and I think over probably the space of about six months about that. Yeah, we'd meet with you weekly. Maybe it was a bit less than six months, whatever it was. Yeah. And. And made, yeah, made really good progress. And, and then obviously submitted. I think probably about this time last year or maybe a little bit later. Yeah, about December last year and I think we were certified in February or March this year.

That rings about.

Well, yeah, yeah, something like that. So now it's awesome. It kind of, it kind of just cements what we've always known are our values as a business anyways. And like we've got a fully remote team. So having B Corp certification is something that's really like united everyone in our team and it gets them excited. I think everyone's proud of that. And when you don't have a kind of shared culture by being in the same work space every day, you kind of have to instill a culture in other ways. And that I think is through your values as a business and, and the kind of Work that you want to do and that kind of stuff. And I think that's what gets excited. It gets our remote team excited.

Nice.

Yeah.

And yeah, highlights of the journey. Was there anything that you were like, oh, that didn't even know that was a thing or. Yeah. Any sort of surprises or.

Yeah, yeah, no, no real surprises. I think it's just a lot more thorough than, you know, when I first looked into it, than what I would have realized right at the start. And like I said, I think that's a, that's a good thing. It needs to be super thorough because otherwise it just loses credibility. And I know that. Yeah, you know. Well, I think we're talking about before it's even going to become even more thorough by the sounds of it. Which is, which is great. It shouldn't be easy because I think if it is, then it becomes. Yeah, it becomes meaningless. No, no real surprises. I think just a lot of pleasant or maybe a little, a lot of little pleasant surprises because it actually makes you think about a whole heap of stuff. Like you say that you kind of probably implicitly know as a business founder, but don't ever take the time to explicitly say. And then through the B Corp process we're like, okay, cool. Well we, yeah, we have to have a policy on breastfeeding women at work. You know, it's always the example. Example that I use is like, I'd never thought of that, you know, but of course we're fine with breastfeeding women. To be breastfeeding at work, like that's, that's totally fine. But not once have we has that ever come up as a three year old business at the time. And so you're like, okay, cool, well let's write a policy on that and that kind of stuff and then documenting all of that. And now we've got, you know, really great employer handbooks and the B Corp sort of journey helped us. We produced this book book which is like sort of the history of not another. And there you go, the big Johnny B on the back. And it's really helped us kind of.

Do the writing for this book. None other certified B Corp. There you go. We say it pretty loud and proud and just it's really helped us sort of position the agency in a way that we want it to go to. So this was kind of through the B Corp process as well. We exist to drive positive change for people on planet through creativity is our purpose. You know, there's a lot of the stuff that doing the B Corp process kind of helped Us get down on paper and on in books and this has been really, really well received. You know, this is a nice thing that we give to prospective clients and current clients and all that and they all go, oh, that's really impressive and, and really cool. So no, it was good program, good process for that.

Nice. Yeah. The team at Genora who we helped they similar to yourself, like Monique founded the business. Colleen is on board now as like a director, chief operating officer. In their heads they knew that people had like unlimited leave or like if you need, you know, those flexi hours. That was it. Like in their head they knew that. But yeah, fast growing startup, they'd never actually written it down and communicated its whole team. Yeah. So just little things like that and then the rest of the team like oh wow, that's so cool. I had no idea. Well, you guys are even better employees that, you know, employers than I thought you were. It's just. Yeah, it's fascinating how, I mean and I'm going through the same as I'm of sort, sort of have been expanding the team over the last couple of years. It's like, well, I know how it all goes in my head because it's been me mainly by myself since I started the business and it's. Oh yeah, actually I need to tell other people because luckily most people aren't in my head. That's not a place.

It's like, woo. I always remember there was a Simpsons episode where Marge is talking to Homer and it cuts through to like a slicer of his head and there's a monkey just smashing some symbols.

And he's.

Like, you have my undivided attention, Barge. It's like, yeah, that's mainly how I see the internal workings of my brain.

Oh you do?

Yeah.

If that's what's going on in your head. You do. You're a pretty good actor, mate.

No bluff too tough. Just, just keep going, keep going. So, so you mentioned it's been well received by clients. So you know, potential return on investment of doing B Corp. There's more clients better, you know, employees reaching out. Yeah. Has that, has that been the case? Have you. Yeah. Have people reached out to you because of B Corp?

Yeah, I think one company did out of Canada and then it didn't eventuate into, into a project. So that, Yeah, I think like I said, we, we got certified in March. It has been, you know, full transparency has. But it's been a tough year in the, in the advertising and branding sort of industry anyways. But so yeah, I think we had one, one prospective lead come through from Canada that seen that we joined B Corp and then yeah, like I say, that didn't unfortunately didn't sort of pan out.

Apart from that. I don't think anyone has come to us specifically because we're B Corp. But I think it's just part of like a more compelling story that helps us get ahead of other agencies when we are sort of invited to pitch for work. A lot of, like a lot of, of pitches that we're doing these days, these days, you know, whether it's for government projects. So we do quite a few large government projects and. Or not for profits. We're pitching for one at the moment. Can't say who it is yet, but hopefully fingers crossed, we'll get it. And they talk about their values and how do your values align? Well now it's like, well, we've actually got a tangible kind of measurement to say well these are our values. And it's actually, you know, it's pretty clear and where we're actually obliged to, you know, put people, plan it on equal footing as a profit and all that kind of stuff. It's in our company constitution. So it's, yeah, it's like a stamp of immediate recognizable. And I think everyone knows what B Corp is now these days and all that kind of stuff. So that's probably the biggest advantage is whenever we're asked what are your values as an agency, blah, blah, blah, it's kind of like, well, yeah, we've got the, we've got the certification to kind of prove that we're not just all talking.

Yep.

And that goes a long way. So I think it's really hard, it's really hard to put a figure on it or really hard to put, you know, how much, how much have we converted thanks to B Corp or I'd say it's a big part in everything that we've converted this year and we've definitely converted larger projects than we, we ever have. And I think that, that, that sort of been values aligned is, is really, really important and showing that you're a good business that, that, that treats staff and people well, especially with government work because government doesn't want any scandals or oh, wow. We've just, you know, given this contract to this company that yeah, pays under minimum wage or whatever. So it's, I think for them it's a real sign of reassurance as well. It's like, cool.

Yeah, totally agree.

So what does being a B Corp mean for you guys in the business?

Yeah, it means, I don't know, constantly, like, I think we're sort of really realistic as well. Like when we did it, you know, did the process with you last year, we said this has to be a. Not like a. A tick and then we're done and.

Cool.

Let's not worry about this until we've reassessed in three years or whatever it is. It's really setting up the foundation, the baseline year. So we really want to better our scores on. On sort of on every metric as we go. So I think it's been. Yeah, for us. What does it mean? It means being way more intentional about the kind of. The values that we've had had from the start and starting the business, ensuring that we do the right kind of work and, and also actually something that I've forgot to say before being B Corp, actually, when we do turn down work, which, like I say we've done quite a few times this year for fossil fuel companies or whatever, it's actually quite a good excuse to get you out of that shit work without making it too personal. I'm not telling. I. We don't want to work with you because you're doing bad stuff for the planet. It's like, oh, sorry, we actually can't work with you because we're B Corp certified and we take that really seriously. So that's actually, that's been a massive, massive, A massive advantage. So, yeah, so I think that's. I think that's sort of what it means to us is living out these values that we've now committed to formally and sort of having a benchmark and a tangible score, which is great about the B Corp system, to kind of measure things against and get better.

Perfect. No, I love it.

And so, yeah, thoughts on the future for B Corp. If you look sort of ten years into the. Into the future, what does that, what does the world of B Corp look like for you?

Yeah, it's a tough one out because, like, you know, I love Seven and I know Gideon from Seven, who you mentioned just before you mentioned his partner. Sorry, what was Elena. Elena, yeah, Who I don't think I've ever met, but know of her and all that. And it's, it's. Honestly, it's. It's awesome seeing that. I saw that they became B Corp and all that. And from a. From a selfish business perspective, you're like, oh, we don't want too many agencies from B Corp because then it becomes meaningless again. So, yeah, so there's that, there's that. Funny, there's that funny? Yeah, I don't selfishly from a business perspective I don't want too many agencies to be B caught. But of course in the, in the, in the spirit of greater good I'm fully on board with it and, and delighted that, that the movement is growing.

Yeah.

Crystal ball gazing. In 10 years, I don't know. I think, I think it's going to become even more prolific and well known. I think it's probably going to become by the sounds of sort of even, even harder to get and I think they'll, they'll I guess meet this kind of rise in demand for it and sort of more knowledge about the B Corp system with a kind of rise in.

What'S the word? Like checks and balances to make sure that it is really, really stringent. Because I guess yeah, the more people that are on it the more perceived kind of perception that is that it maybe is easier to get and it maybe loses a bit of its money which I'm sure, sure the B Corp movement doesn't want to do. So it must be, it must be really tough tension for them as well because obviously them, they want it to grow. They want more and more businesses to be B Corp certified. But I'm sure they're probably aware of that that the more that have it then the kind of perceived value of it maybe diminishes a wee bit. But yeah, no, I really, I sort of really don't know beyond that. I think it's just going to keep growing. I think now one thing that's remarkable is I think when we first talked about B Corp maybe four years ago when we started the business, I'd say most people that we told didn't really know what it was or there was a few people I remember talking to. You mentioned Sam earlier from Little Yellow Bird. I remember talking to her about it years and years ago and, and she was obviously fully onto it. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of other Kiwis just didn't know about it. Now I think if we mention it to anyone or you know, when they see the book and they see B Corp on the back of the book, I think everyone knows what it is now, now which is really, really cool. So yeah, I think it's just going to keep, keep growing.

Yeah, we definitely, when I'm giving any keynotes or talks or workshops on B Corp even three years ago I'd say to the room like who's, who's even heard of B Corp but there'd maybe sometimes be no hands, maybe Maybe like one or two hands and maybe one of them had got the wrong thing and they were actually thinking of something else. Whereas now you go, who's heard of B Corp? And you might get three quarters of the room put in the hands up. So now I'm, now I'm going, can you name a B Corp? And they can go, oh yeah, I fix and Fog Peanut Butter or yeah, Kiwi bank or Catman do or whatever. Like okay, anecdotal evidence definitely cut through is getting, is getting there 100%.

Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's, that's so important I think. Yeah. Having those kind of those brands that people know and like and use and know that that's definitely to help spread the movement even more. I think for me it was actually. Yeah, it was probably that as well. I'm trying to think now where I first ever heard of it. I've got a massive crush on Patagonia as a brand and then. And all Birds as well. And was lucky enough to spend a day at Patagonia HQ in, in California a few years ago and same and then spent a week at all Birds. Had met Tim when I was a journalist list and top bloke had sort of told him about Offcut and all that and he said, oh, why don't you come spend a week with us? And at Orbit.

Yeah, yeah. Which is really, really cool. So we went maybe four or five years ago and yeah, and. And it was still like really in the early days of Allbirds recently. Early days and had a great time there. But anyways like those experiences and sort of seeing those brands that are so cool and so admirable and what they stand for and how they do business and all that know was definitely, definitely made me want to be part of that club. You know, it's like that's, that's definitely where I want to, where I want to go as well. So I think that's super important. Having high profile brands that people love.

Yeah, 100%. And I remember how excited I was when I heard from the team at Kathmandu, like, yeah, we're doing this. I'm like, yeah, you don't understand how big this is going to be because you're going to have the B Corp logo in all your stores and like we've never, we've never had that before. And you're gonna have, you've got retail stuff that can explain this to a public. Whereas before that, I mean there was Brianne with the teak and little yellow Bird but Little Yellow bird Was you know, this, you know, the fairly niche B2B. Yeah. Brianne I guess really did blaze that trail in terms of that consumer facing product. But then she was mainly D2C so it wasn't kind of like that in store. Hey, you know our whole store is a B corp. Like B corp at.

In high profile central city locations is so high profile. Yeah, it's, it's wicked and it's, it's so, yeah it's so awesome that, that companies like them have done it. Kiwi bank stuff. Right?

Stuff. Yep.

Yeah it's wicked. It's, it's great to see and it definitely kind of.

Yeah.

Motivates smaller businesses like ours to go ahead and do it.

Nice. And so final question then. What. What does the future hold for not another. You, you, you clearly do some great stuff. You and Mark are just having a great old time. You've expanded significantly since I last heard because I think when we went through the assessment you had like three part time employees or contractors. Things are obviously doing, doing okay. Yeah, the world's your lobster. So what, what's, what's up next?

Yeah, well, yeah, we are just growing. Just, just trying to do not just more work but more of the right type of work, you know. So you know, like I said earlier, doing sort of of work that gets us out of bed in the morning sort of for purpose work is, is really what excites us as a business and it's what gets our staff excited as well. So yeah, we've got hopefully we've got a few sort of good announcements coming up. Good clients that we've yeah recently landed. We're doing bigger, bigger projects for yeah government projects and that kind of stuff. We're doing more for purpose work which is really, really cool. Cool Gets us really excited. And I think yeah that's kind of, that's kind of it for us is just continue growing in the, in the right kind of direction. Not just growth for growth's sake but sort of being quite intentional with it. And that's the advantage as well. When you're a slightly more established business as you can, you can afford to say no to certain things, you can sort of attract the right type of clients as well through the work that you have done. And that, yeah that's, that's really pretty cool because it makes it a lot more enjoyable to, to do the, do the mahi as well. So yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of it for us.

Nice man.

Growing our little, growing our little empire from the bottom of the world, mate.

Well, and you're growing good. That's how we like it. That's what it's all about, man. Grow good. You know, grow, but grow well. Do it, do it good. 100 make impact.

So 100. And that's, you know, that's definitely something that I think that perception's been getting, getting lost now, which is good where if you, you, you know, back in the day, if you wanted to do something that's sort of for purpose, there was this sort of perception that you can't be financially successful. I think that's. Yeah, that's totally untrue. You can definitely, you can definitely do both. And we're very just Mark and I, you know, financially and, and business wise, but we're, we're also not compromising our ethics or doing anything that, yeah, doesn't sit well with us and to, to do that and we want to make sure that we are growing in the, in the right kind of way.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Well, mate, it's been really good to catch up. It's been a while. I think the last time I saw you in person was at your Christmas do.

Oh, true. Yeah. Yeah, we organized that again, actually.

I reckon that was a belter of a little party, but hopefully, hopefully it won't turn into like a Facebook party. And all the listeners go, hey, Adrian, I heard you got like some cool party in summer. I mean. Yeah, yeah, do a beach party this time. But I love, love you, love your vibe, man. Yeah. I've always just seen you doing cool stuff and I have no doubt that you will continue to do some cool stuff and make some real. Some. Make some waves from Sumner. Yeah. So, yeah, keep on keeping on, brother.

Thanks so much, Tim. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for all the mahi that you do because it's, it's impressive and it's awesome and you are the sort of the glue that holds the, the B Corp community together in New Zealand. And I know you've, you've worked really hard to, to grow it to where it is now and beyond. And it's, it's really impressive because you've been talking about B Corp for, for way longer than, than anyone else I know and way too long. You're not just a, you're not just a sort of, you know, jump on the bandwagon when it starts going good. You've been, you've been there from the start and talking about how good it is. So it's awesome that it's. To see it sort of flourish so much.

Yeah, tell me about it. It feels like it's been in the trenches for sort of eight years, years. And then suddenly. Oh, hang on a minute. We can see some light here at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it feels good. Yeah.

Cool now. Really cool. Really cool. Thank you very much for having me.

You have a great weekend. Sweet.

You too.

See?

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.