#79 Cleaning up our act with Ellie Brade of Cleanery

Hey, Kia ora shimai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Beat Better podcast. Thank you as always to all our regular listeners, possibly both of you. I don't know the one man on the Internet listening to this podcast. No, I think it is a little bit more than that. We're getting there. We're getting there. If you are a new listener, thank you for tuning in. We've got quite a few back catalog episodes. Get amongst it if you haven't liked and subscribed. You know how it works. It just helps because one day we might even be grown up enough to get a sponsor. Maybe it could be you. I don't know. Let me know, drop a note. We'd be keen. Anyway into this latest episode. So today I have got a Ellie braid from the Cleanery. Ellie, how's it going?

Good, thank you. Great to be here. Thank you for having me.

No worries. First time on a podcast or have you. Are you like.

No, no, no. It's my. Actually my favorite. Less scary than video and yeah, it's manageable for me because I do not like cameras, so.

Excellent.

I like it. Yeah.

Too easy. Yes. So for people who don't know, who are you and what do you. What do you do?

I am the co founder of Cleanery. Cleanery is a company that makes low waste cleaning and personal care products. Our products come in a. You can see them behind me. A sachet that you add to a bottle of water and mix it up so you get rid of the single use bottles. So you're eliminating a heap of waste from the personal care and cleaning sectors and we make everything ourselves here in New Zealand as well in our own factory.

Very cool. Yeah. For those of you just listening, it's. It is raining cleaner products behind Ellie on her.

It is so raining outside. So.

Excellent. Yeah. So how did you. You were just walking down the street one day and you thought I know, yeah.

What was.

What's the story behind this business?

So Cleanery began here in our own home. I am very passionate about sustainability and lowering our own personal footprint. So I always used to try and buying easy swaps in the home and I used to make my own cleaning products very poorly. It was quite time consuming, wasn't that cheap. And actually a lot of the ingredients you buy are still in big plastic bags anyway or big bottles of vinegar and the like. So I used to lovingly make my own kind of potions at home. And Mark, my husband who's the other co founder of Cleanery would watch me and be like there's got to be a better way. And if there is a better way, this could actually be a really awesome kind of impact. So scalable business that we could help other everyday humans trying to do their best to make an easy swap in their home. So with that kind of spark of an idea, we started looking into whether we could create a formulation that worked. That's kind of the crux of our business model. Could we create an eco product that actually cleans as well as the traditional chemical products? Because most clean eco products actually don't do a brilliant job of cleaning because they use ingredients that aren't so toxic. So that was a massive challenge. Could we make a naturally formed, formulated, low waste cleaning product that actually worked? So we did a lot of kind of formulation development work and then got some early R D funding and did a pilot plant and figured out we could make this work. And it kind of snowballed from there. So it was, yeah, very, very humble origins in my own kitchen to a big factory in West Auckland. So it's, yeah, it's been a cool journey so far.

Super cool. Yeah, I think, I think that struggle is real. You know, you've got kids, you know, I've got a wife and daughter. We want to try and do the most sustainable stuff. But I'll just say to Ellie, before we came on today, you know, my daughter is off school today, my wife's got Covid. It's pandemonium. You know, I don't really have that much time today to think about how much vinegar do I mix with baking soda to go and clean my windows.

You know, the modern world is a, is a world built on convenience, um, but also wanting to do good. So completely makes sense that you're, you're trying to do that. And so what was your background? I mean, you and Mark, you come from an industrial chemical background.

I'm actually, I'm a yachting journalist of all things, yachting journalism for sustainability.

I totally see how, yeah, yachting journalism.

Although I will say that being in the, on the ocean and around the ocean, you very tangibly see the effect of humans on the planet. You see the plastic in the water, you see the rubbish on the beaches. And that's been a massive driver for me, seeing the kind of impact on the environment. And that's one of the main kind of drives behind my sustainability passion is leaving the world in a better state for our children. And so, yes, while it might seem a big leap, those kind of inspirations were there. Mark's a lot more qualified in this kind of field than I am. He has a background in engineering and business so he was very well placed to kind of pull together the team that we needed to make this happen and, and also get the funding we needed to make this happen as well to kick it off at the beginning before we had investment. So it was kind of unique.

Yeah. And I think, you know, it's really cool. You know, you're, you're reminiscent of Brianne at a teak, you know, possibly one of the world's most well known B corps to a degree and one of the, one of my favorite personal favorites because I think they would be number two and they've just been really good stuff, you know. But she started making her cosmetics products in her kitchen as well. So, you know, it's, it's that cliche story of the, the garage startup or the spare room startup, but it is doable, clearly.

100 and I think being inspired by your own kind of lived experience and your own kind of interpretation of how you can help everyday humans do better is a really great place to start. I think going through startup life and something you're not passionate about would be an incredibly difficult thing. We are super passionate about drives us a lot more than it would if it was something we didn't care about. So I can see why a lot of people start in their own home and scale from there because it's something they truly care about.

Yeah. And I think the startup world, I sort of got involved in the startup world a few years ago when I was starting out in my own business because I was mainly doing sales training because the B corp thing was still so minor and people just weren't even vaguely interested in it. And it seems to be the startup world. There's a lot of, lot of activity with companies like, like yours where actually they are fully impact driven. But equally there seems to be just as many drone delivered pizza services that are just completely, you know, someone's just trying to make as much money, they want to become the unicorn, make as much money as possible and flip this business before it blows up. So yeah, it's kind of interesting but I definitely feel, and having been involved with the University of Canterbury over the years with various startups, sort of advisory mentoring programs, the percentage of startups that have an environmental or social impact lens on it has definitely increased. Have you been involved with any accelerators and things like that or have you just got the funding, done it by yourselves?

No, in the early stages of cleaner. Just before we formally launched to market, we were part of the Creative HQ Climate Impact Accelerator down in Wellington. We were in the inaugural cohort and that was amazing. That really helped us kind of knuckle down on what we were doing and surrounded by some incredible people. We met a lot of our investors through that program and just being surrounded by like minded people trying to do good and have an impact is amazing. It helps you kind of keep the inspiration right from the beginning. We, we truly do believe that kind of doing business for good is good for business. It doesn't have to come at the cost of the planet to have a good profitable business. So I think that it's really awesome seeing more and more people kind of realizing that embracing and realizing as well that's what consumers want. If we look to the future with the way the planet is right now I think it's highly unlikely that the trend is going to go down for impact based businesses. People are more aware that they need to be supporting and shopping and with businesses that are actually trying to have change for good. So yeah it's great to surround yourself with people like that And Impact accelerators are an amazing place to start.

If you're looking to start an impact business. There are definitely lots of them out there. Yeah, the Creative HQ1 was a fantastic thing for us so I would definitely encourage people to look into that if they haven't heard of it.

Excellent. Yeah try and make sure we get some links in the show notes at some point.

Yeah, no, totally agree. The the future. The future is impact and so how's it working working in a family business and a startup? I know we had my mate Jamie Cashbau from twice he, he is similar situation. It's his, his, him, his wife and his dad in the business, you know and very similar to you. They've got a I guess like a new entrant product where there's not really. It's kind of like a new concept as well as a startup business. So yeah, how's that working out for you guys so far?

I think if it's going to work it really works and for us it really works. We're both very, I think it's great that we're both in it because if Mark was working the crazy hours that he does and I wasn't involved in cleanery I would find that very hard to understand or be tolerant of. But because I'm part of the mission I understand what it's all for. It kind of it works and it's fine. You can bounce ideas off each other without any pressure of saying the wrong thing or worrying about saying in front of the wrong person. It's a really kind of natural way to develop a business. And because we, and we do work really well together, we have very different roles in the company, which helps so we don't tread on each other's toes. But I think, I think finding someone who shares your passion, whether that's a family member or a friend, is again, like, really important. Because when it's a difficult road in a startup sometimes and having someone who shares that passion and mission goal with you is like, invaluable. Absolutely. So, yeah, I think we work really well as a team. I think if it didn't work, it just wouldn't work. So you wouldn't get as far as we can maybe, I don't know, or it would all implode. But yeah, we complement each other pretty well.

So that's cool. Yeah, because my, the first, well, my first sort of business involvement was myself and a mate of mine from school and my dad started a business just after I left uni and it almost led to a murder suicide between me and my dad. It was just. This is not working. It's like, you know, he couldn't see that I, yes, I'm your son, but I'm a co director here. So, yeah, you know, you don't tell, you don't tell your co director in your. When you were working, you know, in a company to go and tie his room, you know, and he just couldn't break through the fact that, you know, I'm the son and I'm in charge. It's like. And I remember one night we went for a beer down the road with a mate of his who was a senior partner at Grant Thornton, sort of accountant, accounting firm. And I said to him, hey, look, Ed, you know, this, this is the situation. These are two solutions that have been, you know, posited. Which one would you back? And he chose my. And I didn't say who's. And he chose mine. I sort of turned to my dad and said, you know, maybe I do know some stuff. But yeah, we, we just really struggled at Indian side. I'm just going to walk away because I can't. I just can't cope with this. Yeah, I think, I think it's like Marmite working with family. Either you love it or you hate it. And I think it's. I think you pretty quickly work out which one it is. So, yeah, listen, I'm still, I'm still working on my wife. I'd actually like to get My wife into my business because I think she is the, she's the Ying to my yang, whichever way you want to put it. I think, yeah, she can really work really well. It's slow, there's resistance quite a lot at the minute. But I'm working on it, I'm working.

On it one day maybe.

So I guess. Yeah. So backing up the truck then. So yachting journalism like so young Ellie growing up was yachting journalism the thing that you always wanted to do? Like. Yeah, talk us through sort of how you, how you even got to that?

No, I always wanted to write and ended up a friend of mine who got a job on a yachting magazine in the sales team and got an editorial job there and it kind of just spiraled from there and I'd always kind of been on the water and around the water. I grew up on the Isle of Wight after moving away from New Zealand. So Auckland and the Isle of White, two very yachty places. So it was kind of quite natural for me. And then, and then kind of just kept doing that until cleaner came up and I was like, yeah, this is, this is exactly what I want to be doing because I've been becoming less and less comfortable with the kind of higher end yachting work I was doing and the impact and everything. So it was just the perfect kind of segue for me. I still do a lot of writing, I do a lot of the comms and website content and newsletters and so I'm still using, using my words but in a different way. So. And there's a very useful skill set to have understanding journalists from the other side of the table. So I kind of can write things that they want to hear and can use easily without it being very time consuming. So it's definitely a great skill set to have. But yeah, yeah, not necessarily a natural segue.

Yeah. And I think I know Brianne well. She's. I keep saying from a tick, she's no long obviously atique, I think business. But better is her new company. I should reference that.

Incredible as well. Incredible.

Yes, incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Her new products. But I know she is a big proponent of pr, particularly for product based companies. So that's, I think that's having that in house skill possibly saving yourself thousands, you know, and I think that's the mentality of the startup always has to be what, you know, what can we, yeah.

Do ourselves to save the investment. Even though, yeah, it means another 1am finish or whatever it is. But it's like we don't have the Cash to pay for it. So, yeah, you use the skills that you've got.

And so you sort of mentioned. Well, actually one. One follow question on the yachting. So do you watch below deck as your guilty pleasure?

I actually never watch below deck. I feel like I've seen enough, enough real experience to know exactly what goes on board.

I've heard it's great tv though, so it's one of.

It is one of my little sort of guilty pleasures. If I just want crap TV because my brain doesn't work, it's like, yeah, I'm happy just to watch half an hour of that because it's just crap.

But.

And you get to see some nice boats in some nice possible. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. So, yeah, so you mentioned, you know, seeing some of the environmental stuff on the, on the boats, Boats, ships, yachts. I know that you can get very, very angry people when you, when you call the wrong thing the wrong thing. Yeah, I remember I was, when I was briefly in the army back in the day, one of the, one of the guys I know, he, he went. He had to go to a navy base and it was inland. And when, when he was, when he went through the security, they said, oh, welcome aboard. He was like, but there's no boat here. He's like, every navy base is considered a ship if they say welcome aboard. He was like, but there's no boat here.

So, yeah, so the yachting, you. You got to see some of the environmental impact. But, you know, had environmental been like, growing up, I mean, growing up on the water, had you, you know, was it something that was instilled in you from, from like, parents or school? Or have you kind of always been someone who cares about the environment?

I, I'd like to say I've always been. I definitely haven't always been like that. I think it's been a learning journey and I think again, it relates back to cleanery being for everyday humans trying to do their best. Certainly since having children, I have been so much more aware of our impact on the planet. I definitely suffer from client and climate anxiety and working in a business like this really helps me to feel like I'm putting my efforts towards something that could actually have a big change. Like every time we sell a sachet, that's one less bottle out of landfill, that makes me feel really good. And yeah, it's definitely been a learning journey. I think it's never too late to start making your swaps. My very first swap I made probably 10 years ago was swapping our Pump hand gel for a bar soap in the shower. And it's as simple as that. You can just do one really easy swap. And that's what Cleaner is all about, is a really easy swap that fits into everyday kind of busy lifestyles. And I think like you were saying earlier, everyone has really good intentions, but life is really full on sometimes, especially in kind of intense business periods or with young children or just in general. And when people might have really good intentions, it doesn't necessarily translate to action. So the more companies like us can create really easy solutions for swaps, the more we'll see really big change. So, yeah, it's been a journey and I'm always learning and always trying to do better, but I'm very conscious that everyone is kind of everyday people trying to do their best. And yeah, the more we can help them do that, the better because it is hard and sometimes it does feel really overwhelming when you're faced with all this climate news, where do I even start? Does it even matter? And absolutely does matter. And it makes you feel better about yourself often. I think when you're doing your small part, even though we all know that the big culprits are responsible for the majority of impact, it still is helping to drive change. Things are changing. I can definitely see, even over the past year, massive change in consumer perception over these kind of products. So, yeah, the tidal change is coming and the more we do, the faster that kind of wave will go.

Yep. I think, I mean, that's 100% the key. You know, if you're. If in doubt, take some, Just take action, you know, and it might not be the perfect action, it might possibly be the wrong action, but taking. If you don't take the action, you won't have a reference point to then go, oh, actually, I get it. And I did a recorded a podcast yesterday with Perry Drysdale from Untouched World, and yeah, that's exactly. Her ethos was, you know, do but then reflect, check, check the impact. And actually, and she was talking about how, you know, they went down one path and realized actually this isn't as environmentally friendly as we were first led to believe. So actually we're going back to what we used to do. And that caused like a real ruckus with customers because, like, whoa, you know, why are you stepping away from this better option? And then had to educate and say, no, we've done the research and actually you've been told that she was talking particularly about the, the packaging that they ship their products in. She said, look, actually the Packaging that we were sold turns out it's not as good as what we were told. So you know, we gone back to what you think is worse, but actually it's, it's not as bad. Yeah.

And yeah, it's often a challenge around an impact business is we found the exact same thing around compostable packaging. We get almost daily a question about why our sachets are not compostable. And when we first started, I'm a very passionate composter and I couldn't get my around the fact that the compostable packaging wasn't the best option. It absolutely is not the best option. We've done an awful lot of work around that. But most consumers have very little knowledge around actual best practice. We aren't educated, we aren't taught this in classrooms. Like it's actually very difficult to get your hands on the right information and you do the best based on what you think you know. So I always for example thought compostable packaging was, was the way forward. It's definitely not. That's an education thing. So a lot of what we do is education and just helping consumers kind of be armed with the right information around what's best. And it's really hard because where do you find that information? And yeah, if you even want looking in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, are you looking and where can you find it? But like recycling are a great example. Like how do you know what to put them? Then people again have great intentions but just genuinely don't know what they should be doing. So yeah, often you can, you can be presenting what people think is not the best option, but it actually is. So as education is a massive, massive part of this kind of product and way of doing things as well, especially for us around educating people on a different way of doing things with putting a sachet full of powder into a bottle. It's all education. So again that's all part of the tidal wave of change and that education is becoming easier the more normalized it becomes.

So and again people are time poor. You know, they might not know and they, and even if they did know and were curious actually, you know, I, well some people might have the odd hour that they can go down the Internet rabbit hole of what packaging's but in general, you know, most people, I remember I did some, I did some training for Meridian Energy a few years ago and their CFO came and gave a bit of an update State of the Nation before we kicked off the trading for the team and he, he said, you know, the average Consumer spends, I think it was like 15 seconds a year thinking about their power bill. He said that that's the inertia you're against, you know, when you're trying to, when you're trying to sell them our product or you know, whatever that they're not thinking about. And I think that's a really just, you know, because, because I'm so in my business. You're so in your business. But the actual amount of time that the average consumer spends thinking about, I think Covid possibly accelerated a lot of this change when people were actually going, actually I have got times I am going to clean the cupboards out, but I'm going to look at everything in there and go, hang on a minute. Actually why have I got five bottles of this stuff that kind of all does the same? And why is this one got all these chemicals in it and all the rest of it? Yeah, so, yeah, and so I guess, yeah. A couple of questions. So what packaging do you use then? What's the best.

At the moment? And we've worked with. Right from the beginning we knew we had to get the kind of packaging as best as we could. We worked with a lot of sustainable packaging experts here in New Zealand. It is currently recyclable and soft plastic scheme, which again is not perfect, fell apart. In Australia as we know.

It'S not perfect, but our sachets weigh a gram. So we get a lot, a lot of, a lot of hate sometimes about the sachet. But people lose perspective sometimes. Our sachet weighs a gram. You'd have to buy 100 sachets to equal one supermarket bottle. And when you look at the amount of packaging that goes into the average supermarket cart, the, the vitriol we sometimes get feels a little unjustified. But we are working with those experts all the time on a sugar cane alternative. The problem with that at the moment is it tears really easily and it's really important. Plus that were childproof and waterproof.

Yep.

A pair of ours who doesn't exist anymore. But they lost an entire batch of products because they use compostable packaging and water got into it and they had to bend the entire lot, which is not sustainable. So. Well, a gram of soft plastic is not what I would like. I'd love it to be no plastic. It's the best we can do at the moment. And we are, I promise everybody listening, we are working all the time. We have constant test samples coming into the factory to try and improve the packaging. And when we can, we will. Absolutely. That's Definitely not one. We're setting on going, that's fine, that's enough. I think that's part of the B corp mentality, is nothing's ever good enough. If you can improve it, you can and you should. I think we're always kind of being like, how can we chip away at this and make it a little bit better? It's great right now, but could be even better. So. Yeah, well, definitely 99% better than the kind of traditional equivalent. We would love it to be 100% better if we possibly could. So we. Yeah, we're always chipping away at that and.

Yeah, and I think that's just that. That is the. Particularly the packaging. Like, no one has won the packaging battle, I feel.

No, I mean, at the end, people contact us and like. But it's got to go in something. There's not ever going to be nothing. It's got to go in something. We look, you know, glass is heavy. The aluminum lids on the tiny glass refill bottles can't be recycled. Compostable is not always waterproof. It doesn't actually add anything to the soil. There's been heaps of studies released now about compostable packaging and why it's not brilliant. You know, there's no perfect alternative at the moment for the purpose we need. Like, it has to be waterproof and childproof. It's a child's fruit bar. It doesn't matter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Different packaging for us, you know.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think it's. It's got to go in something. People forget that sometimes it's can't be in.

So the. Yeah, I remember talking to my Ollie Milliner. He was the sustainability manager at Kathmandu, who sort of led their sustainability. Sorry, led their B Corp journey a few years back. And, you know, he was talking the same thing. They import a container of T shirts. They experimented with not wrapping them in plastic, wrapping the entire container in plastic, or keeping the standard. We wrap every single T shirt in a plastic sleeve. And, yeah, they had the. I think I'm right in saying they had the most waste by not wrapping them each individually, because if the container got, like, you say, got wet or got dirty, they don't have to, you know, take the whole batch and wash it and clean it and then repack it and. And so. And it's the same, I think, you know, with the cucumbers in the supermarket.

But why is it.

Why is it in plastic? Well, there's more. The food waste that happens if they're not wrapped in plastic is Way worse than the amount of plastic, you know, so. And I think this, having interviewed so many B corps now on this podcast, it's just abundantly clear to me that doing good is not black and white. It's not just. Here is. Here is the thing. Go and do it. Because like you say, it's got. Well, we, yes, we want it to be sustainable, but it has, like I say, it's got to be waterproof and kid friendly. It's. Yeah, I don't know, what's the. Maybe you need to put like algebra on the side of it or something. Like make it look like a maths task or something. I don't know. How do you make it? I was reflecting last night.

We do make use for dryer. I know I'm probably going to get letters to the editor now, but, you know, occasionally we do put some stuff in the dryer and last night I couldn't get it to work and it had, it just had LOC on it. And I was like, what's this all about? And it must be a lock of some description. So I pulled it out, unplugged it from the wall, plugged it back in again, thought, okay, that'll fix it. No, the lock is still there. It's like the dryer has got a child lock on it. What child knows what white wear looks like and even what room it is in.

I mean, I know, I know kids might be able to get into it. I was like, my daughter doesn't even know the room where the washing machine is. I had to operate it. So I thought that was a bit redundant. So maybe, yeah, you might find some way of childproofing it in a different way. But yes, tough. But I think, you know, that's why we call the program, you know, when we work with you on the B Corp, the Be Better program. It's like, just do what you can to be better. Because there is no perfect company. There is not one company in the world that you couldn't go through with a fine tooth comb, go, ah, but you, you did this or you haven't done that. So you know people. I guess it's nice that people are concerned that they want to let you know. But it's like, cool, yeah, you know, come and sit in the office and show me how effective.

And all the anger and energies and some of the big guys who are genuinely pumping millions of millions of tons of plastic waste into the environment every single day, we are genuinely trying to do our best and have the smallest impact we possibly can. And I really mean that. We really are. So. Yeah. And we have a lot of amazing. So many amazing customers who get the mission and everything. But, yeah, it's hard when you're trying to do your best and you still. Still get hate because you're like, we're doing the best we absolutely can and we genuinely are, we really are. So I know that one day we'll have an even better version of the packaging and we'll get that.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's. It's tough, particularly if people are contacting you directly, but it's like. Yeah, just never read the comments in the. In the newspaper section online. It's, you know, just, you know, it's all good. Every, you know, was it. My mate Michael Philpot says opinions are like, everyone's got one. Yeah. Value. While we. Whilst we value your feedback. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, talk to me about B Corp. When did B Corp pop up on your. On your radar as something that you thought would be useful?

I had always had B Corp on my radar. I'm definitely. One of my roles is leading the sustainability side of the business and it had always been on my radar. I think the advantage of being a startup and being new is that it's the perfect time to start early. We. We had always been very determined that we would be a business for good, from. From our employees to what we supplied to what we made, how we did business. And the more I looked at B Corp, the more it was very clear that it was a fantastic framework for all of that. Especially when you're a small business, you kind of just do a lot of the time and you don't necessarily need to put the structure in that a big company would have, but by doing B Corp, we can have that structure in from the very beginning. So we're setting ourselves up for the future, which is great. And.

One example, for example, we have a breastfeeding in the workplace policy. We don't have any mothers, expectant mothers in the workplace, but it's there. So when we do have someone in future, it's ready to go. It wouldn't even be a question. It's all. It's just part of who we are. So I think having that framework really appealed.

As did the kind of. What's the word?

The ability to show to the wider world that we actually were kind of walking the walk, not just talking the talk. There are a lot. There's a lot of greenwashing out there. There's a lot of Businesses that say they're doing good or just, I think as well, just making a good product doesn't make you a good business is how you make it. It's what your is. It's, it's the whole package. So for us, we really wanted to have that right from the very beginning. So it was kind of always, always there and I think it was trying to think when we actually started the process. We'd probably been going for a year when we started the formal application process, but it was kind of always in the back of our brains right from the beginning, which I think is a massive advantage because I can see it would be incredibly difficult to retrofit yourself into a B Corp if you'd gone a long way down a path that didn't fit that framework. So I feel grateful for once that we're a startup because that allowed us to kind of get on the right foot right from the very beginning.

Yeah, no, totally agree. Startups, it's super easy. You build a business around the framework, it makes it super easy. Yeah. Legacy companies, yeah. Most of the people we tend to help aren't that far off the B Corp kind of vibe in general. There'd be some stuff that they're doing and there's a bit of tinkering here and there that they might need to do. But yeah, there's a, there is that huge advantage of being a startup. It's that classic. Smaller and startups. Yes. We don't have time and resource to go and get it done. Bigger companies, established companies, we might have to really change how we do stuff. And how do I get the people in the room that need to make that decision so that there's possibly like an absolutely perfect size company that's got the time and resource and you know, but in general there's always an element of, yeah, are we too small or are we too big? It's like I always say, no, it's about mindset and intent. If you want to prove the good that you're doing and you want to have a framework that helps you work out how to do more good, then it doesn't matter if you're a startup or a 500 year old business, even if there is such a thing in the world. Don't know.

Yeah. Cool. And so highlights on the journey. Anything good, bad, unexpected.

Otherwise I think the good is just that framework. It was amazing for kind of structuring what we were doing also just kind of raising things we hadn't even thought of that wouldn't even kind of Crossed our minds to do that. Kind of drove us in the right way.

Hard part, I guess would be the time we waited for certification. We made so much progress between when we submitted our application to when we actually got certified. So for example, when we were certified we had absolutely smashed our carbon reporting. We would have got tens more points than we did. And I know that obviously it's a three year cycle, but at the time it was like, this is so frustrating because in the application on paper we were doing no carbon report reporting, but in reality we were like living that. We put so much work into it. So I think that kind of delay was hard. I think it's probably improving from what I've heard. But I think you have to be prepared for that delay. And also when I think we first started, I didn't know that there was that delay. So we were kind of putting in a lot of time to small minuti that we probably in hindsight should have just finished up while we were waiting in that kind of eight month queue. But yeah, that was the frustrating part. But then it's just part of the journey so it didn't matter in the end. And hopefully next time when we get recertified we'll leap up on our points. But yeah, I think good is just the whole, the benefits of the whole structure of it. And the bad was the time and the time it was a very intense process and then it was a really long wait time once we'd finished that process.

So I think you hit the queue at like peak.

Yeah, I think we did. I think it's like a lot better than it used to be. But at that time there was a bunch of you.

Yeah, we submitted in July 2022 and we got certified in May 2023.

Yeah, there was a bunch of stuff.

Around about that time that literally it was, it was a year even for small businesses like, because normally small businesses get through relatively quickly because there's not that much to need to audit. Yeah, that the queue's massively come down now, so almost. Well actually to the point where I think it was probably just after we were working with you that that's when we were starting to advise people actually do some homework in the queue because we, you know, it was clear that the queue was going to be so long. Whereas now we're saying to people, no, no, get your homework done. Because we had one company who we said, oh, you know, you have plenty of time, you'll probably have at least like six to eight months. They got called within like a Month or two and we haven't done the homework yet. Okay, I'll see if I can delay them for you. I'll just, you know, I'll make cause of distraction.

I mean it's a good. Because it shows there's so much demand for B Corp, which again shows that the kind of impact movement is just growing. So I can't complain about that side of things. But yeah, it was, we made a lot of progress in that kind of 10 month period that wasn't kind of reflected on. Yeah, yeah, which is fine because then we'll get captured in the next round.

You get it next time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what, what does being a B corp mean to you and Mark?

Oh, it's massive. Like we would when we finally got our certification. We were so proud of the fact that we'd done what we always wanted to do, which was create a business for good.

Like I said, making a good product isn't enough for us. There are plenty of companies churning out good products and they don't make them in a good way. They don't pay their staff properly. They're not good humans. And we always just wanted to be good humans. And B Corp for us is what that was all about. It's definitely also been an amazing kind of validation for us for investors. We've just entered the US market and the US recognizes B Corp and actually the UK as well, a lot more than it's known over here. I think there's only just over 100B Corps here. It's not as kind of recognized maybe. So when you tell people we're a B corp, they go, what is that? Whereas in America we found people, people really understand what that means and it's really kind of again validated what we're about for us, for other people and they understand that we do genuinely kind of walk the walk. So yeah, for us it's been kind of multi pronged beneficial for us. So yeah, very glad we did it.

Nice. Yeah, I think that's fair summary. I think we're getting there. I mean every time I give a talk I'll sort of say, right, you know, before I sort of kick into it, who has heard of B Corp? And three years ago that may be out of a room of you know, 100 people, there'd be one hand that goes up. Now you might get 2/3 of the room put in the hand up and then I'll go, okay, so can you, can anyone name a B corp that you buy? And people will go, I, I bank with Kiwi bank or. Yeah, I've got a Catman Do T shirt or whatever. Yeah. So increasingly it's getting there, but there's still work to be done, but hopefully. Yeah, you know. Oh, yeah.

And you definitely, definitely see that. For example, in the uk, Waitrose has a B Corp vial and things like that. So it's definitely becoming a kind of normalized benchmark for good.

Yeah.

And so New Zealand, it's definitely growing. Like even the amount of B corpse from when we've started the process to now has grown heaps. So, yeah, it's cool.

We're getting there. We're getting there. And so do you have any tips or. You know, had obviously been a startup business, you're trying to balance cash flow, making some money, reinvesting in the business, but also you're trying to do it through a purposeful lens and doing good. So, yeah, how do you two sort of manage the purpose versus profit conversations?

For us, we could not have done this without our own factory. Making our products ourselves has got so many benefits. For a start, we're not paying somebody else to make our products that we then have to mark up before we can even begin to kind of sell them on at a profit. We make them ourselves, we can control the entire process. We're very nimble, we innovate very quickly. We can launch new products to market. So for us, we had to do it ourselves and not leave it in other people's hands. By doing that, we are able to kind of be profitable, I suppose, without having to mark up the products and make them unaffordable. Not unaffordable, but for us, again, part of this impact mission was making the sustainable choice super affordable. Not just easy, but really affordable. Our sachets retail at $4. They're often way cheaper than that. On special on our website, they're $3. You just can't get much cheaper than that. So for a lot of green products have this kind of green tax on them, which makes, especially with the cost of living really hard. People might have the absolute best intentions, but if they can't feed their kids, they're not going to be spending $10 on an eco spray. So.

Developing our own factory and all of that was at the, again, right at the very beginning where we can only do this if we can make a product that will definitely work and we can only do this if we can make it ourselves. So developing the factory was almost harder than making the product because we had to design everything ourselves. We had to operate in New Zealand, which is not cheap to do. We were a living wage employer. We again wanted to do it properly. But because we do it ourselves, we are able to kind of be doing business for good, is good for business. We do genuinely believe that. And I think if you find the right purpose and niche as well. Everyone cleans product, cleans their house hopefully some of the time anyway. And so it's a very everyday product. It's not a niche product, it's something that serves a purpose.

Yeah, I think it's very possible to run a profitable impact business. You just have to find the right business and the right model and the right customer base and be able to scale it if you need to scale it as well. We always design the factory to be able to be scaled very quickly if we need to as we expand into other markets. So it's again like, I think before you sit down and start a business, be really clear on where you're going. I think it's all you have this idea, but where do you want to be? How do you want to scale it? What's your kind of vision for the future? Like us, for us it was, we want to be a good business, we want to grow the business, we want to have massive impact. And to do that we need to get into every household in the world that's out. That is our goal.

And we were really, really clear right from the beginning where we wanted to be going. And I think that's really helped with our kind of success and drive in that we, we didn't just kind of blindly fumble our way through it. We knew exactly where we were aiming for. So I think if you've got an idea, just make sure you kind of know what the kind of long term vision for it is for it and how it would work.

Nice. That's super cool.

So I guess, yeah. Would you call yourself a startup still? Or are you, are you.

Oh yeah.

Not getting it to scale up, you.

Know.

So we've scaled up. We are, we've entered just literally this month, entered the, on the last month. We're now in November, entered the American market. We're in Australia or New Zealand. A year ago we were in I think probably 15 stores. We're in two and a half thousand stores now.

But we're very much in that kind of nimble startup stage. We're in another investment round at the moment.

Yeah, we're not, we're done. And we're up against some really, really big corporations. So we're definitely, we're definitely one of the smaller players But I genuinely believe that small players is where the innovation will come from. All these big, especially in the cleaning products industry, these massive centers of excellence that are acres and acres and acres big, that churn out millions of dollars, like millions and millions of bottles every day. It would be very, very, very hard for them to pivot overnight.

So the change is not going to come from them. They have a very profitable setup that is geared around these huge facilities. And the change will come from little companies in New Zealand driving the change within and it will come from legislation and things like that. So I think while we are small, we are very mighty and we have a big role to play. So yeah, we may be small, but we are mighty.

100%.

And so investment. Have you. You're just getting like what I call it proper investors. You haven't you. Have you done crowdfunding? Are you looking at anything like that?

No, we don't do crowdfunding. We've had an amazing group of investors. So once we had done that initial pilot plant and started selling into our first stores, which was borrow fresh here in New Zealand and kind of proven the concept and selling online, that's when we first got our investors. Our investors have been amazing right from the beginning. They share our vision. One of our big investors is climate vc. So they back our mission to do good business for good again. We couldn't have a more supportive group investors. So they've been incredible throughout the entire journey and at the moment we're just building on that existing group for the next round. But the next round is blind to how far growth in America because that's where we'll see huge impact and that is our goal impact at scale because every single bottle out of landfill is a great day. So.

Yeah, that's, that's great. And we're definitely seeing increasing interest from the financial sector investment sector in businesses like yours, which is driving a lot of, you know, a lot of people want to come and work with us because like, hey, our investment partner has said we need to look at B Corp or we know that if we want to be B Corp, if we want to get investment, we need to be measuring and reporting our impact. So yeah, it's, you know, for me, I always felt when the money people get it, you know, that this shit's real rather than, you know, Ellie, passionate mum trying to make the best product, like that's cool. But the people with the cash go, actually, yeah, we see something here and we see that you're like, you say it's I, I Frequently say it makes sense and it can make sense. You know, you're doing good in a sensible way. That's making a lot of sense. But it can also have a good return for investors. So why. Why wouldn't we.

And be for. That was also fantastic because using climate VC as an example, and there obviously not are any investors, so I won't speak on behalf of all the investors, but they had very kind of set requirements as to what they required from us in order to get investment. And with B Corp, it was just like we didn't have to do anything extra. We'd done it all. It was. Our impact was fantastic compared to other companies where all the tick boxes they were asking to check we were doing anyway or had done because of B Corp. So it made that kind of process of giving them what they needed very easy and meant they could demonstrate as well that we were doing what we needed to be doing. And that's another great benefit of the B Corp framework.

Yeah, that's. Thank you. That's exactly what we're hearing. It's great to, you know, hear you echo that back.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a bunch of reasons why you might want to, you know, beyond. Beyond just wanting to do good and proving the good that you're doing. There are a bunch of benefits, you know, customer attraction, employee attraction, investment attraction, and supply chain pressure. That's the four main things that we see. Yeah. And for some businesses, it's all four of those at the same time. And for others, I mean. Well, two. Couple of questions. There's three questions that spring to mind. Have you had people reach out to you yet? Say, how have you got any jobs because of what you're doing, because you're quite a cool, cool startup company, or do you feel like you're still a little bit.

I mean, I actually think we.

Get on the phone criticizing the packaging and start asking to work there if you, if you think you could do better.

Definitely, though, when you're hiring and the roles we have hired, being an impact business is a great appeal. And members of our team who have joined, that's been a really big draw card for them. They really believe in the mission. And to be honest, we wouldn't want anybody on the team who didn't believe in the mission and kind of share that with us. So, yeah, that's definitely an appealing, appealing part of being on the team. I'm sure if we, if we did start hiring that we. It would be a. Continue to be an attractive part of the role.

And undoubtedly you Know, we definitely hear that.

I think especially generations, they want to go to work and. Well, not all of them, but I think more and more people want to go to work and they're doing something that actually is for good and not for bad.

Yeah, what a crazy idea. Yeah.

Might catch on.

And so how, how have you gone about selling the product? So obviously getting it into supermarkets and then interview. So yeah, is that, have you done that in house or have you.

No, we work with various distribution partners on that. They are experts. We have a fractional sales manager in the US as well. We have distributors in Australia. So having people who are expert in market has been really key because every market is different. In Australia especially, you think we're really similar. We're really not very similar at all. I think that's often a big mistake people make when they're moving from New Zealand into Australia. Is they. They assume we're the same and we're not the same. We're similar, but we're not the same. So yeah, we work with various distributors. Supermarkets are obviously a massive channel for us because that's how you get the kind of normalized everyday availability for people. I would say that it's definitely not an easy journey to get into supermarkets, but it's also really encouraging to see so many supermarket buyers really getting behind the mission and backing us.

When they don't have to. So it just shows again that change is coming. They know that change is coming and I think they know that in 10 years time we're not going to have aisles and aisles full of single use, reuse, reusable bottles. So.

Yeah, I'm always really encouraged by the number of buyers who do really get the mission. And yeah, it's been great to see us kind of expanding throughout supermarkets in New Zealand, Australia and soon America too. So yeah, I think when you can get the buyers to arrange you, then it shows that change is definitely happening because even three years ago in New Zealand these products just weren't in supermarkets at all. And now you have whole dissolvable sections, refill sections. It's so much more normalized and that education is definitely working. So when we see new people entering the market, we're obviously the best in my opinion. But it's great because it just shows they're helping to, you know, promote the concept, normalize the concept. Although I will caveat that with a lot of people have tried average versions and have been put off by it. So that's another part of the education process is kind of showing that our Product does work, the testing it's gone through and, you know, encouraging them to try the concept again if they've been burnt by a. By a bad one. So ups and downs. But it's, yeah, amazing to me seeing how much this concept is being normalized, which is great.

Yeah.

The way of the future.

Yeah. No, I always remember working for various global multinational companies and similar thing. They say, Australia, New Zealand, it's all the same. And one of my mates, he had a great description, he said, yeah, you know, Sydney is as far away from Auckland as London is from Berlin. And the cultural differences are just as great, but similar, you know, Anglo Saxon population. Germany and the uk, but completely poles apart. And it's the same with Aussie New Zealand. Yeah, I think we're often just lumped together as either, well, the eighth state or the. Or the west island, as my mate Sam likes to call Australia.

Our population sizes are very different. New Zealand's got 5 million people. Australia is so much bigger than that. So in New Zealand you kind of get used to going very deep with a small amount of target people. In Australia you have to go very broad. And yeah, yeah, you have to remember that it's a very different audience as well. So yeah, we've definitely learned a lot between the two countries and taken those learnings over to America now, which has also been really exciting.

So nice. And so did you. Did you actively reach out to distribution partners and say, hey, we want to get into W. Or did they come and knock on your door and say, hey, we like, no.

Reached out. When we originally were set up, one of our investors was a distribution partner. So that really smart move. Yes. Kickstart the whole thing, which definitely again helps if people believe in your mission. And then we've kind of had a few shuffles around since then and people. Yeah, we've had people reach out to us too, especially in America, which has been great. So yeah, watch the space over there. It's exciting to be working with new over there.

That's a nice feeling. It's all validation when people start ringing you going, hey, I, I like what you've got. Can I have something?

Yes.

Yeah. And is that. Are you both coasts or is it like west coast, east coast or so so we were.

We've been at two different Expos in America this year. One on the east coast, one on the west coast.

Expo east and Expo west and Expo.

Yes. So an Expo west was very new to us. We were just kind of looking at the American market. We've just been back At Expo east we won an innovation award which was amazing and just the visibility and awareness of who we are has come on leaps and bounds since then. So it's, yeah, it's really exciting going into that market. There's so much scale, there's so much work to do and so much impact to be had. So we're really excited about that market. Buying all our learnings whilst still looking after Australia and New Zealand. We're not leaving them behind. It's just, it's part of the kind of growth mindset for us. So.

Yep, totally. It's, it's similar to path what we're trying to do. You know, we're actively looking for clients in the US because. Why not? You know, because we can charge Kiwi pesos to a US client and you know, we do, we do okay on a business for business wise and we get to scale our impact and work with, with a bigger pool of companies. So yeah, smart move. Any plans then to, to relocate manufacturing to avoid shipping stuff?

We had always designed the factory that it was very replicable in other markets. So I mean technically we could pull it apart and put it on a ship tomorrow. It's been designed that way. We wouldn't because we're still serving Australia and New Zealand and we've got enough to serve early America. The idea is that as we grow we will, will replicate the factory in market which again will reduce on shipping we see for everything where we possibly can. But it's still, I mean the sachets weigh very little compared to shipping a bottle of water around the world. But it's still shipping. We want to avoid that. So that is absolutely the plan and it always has been. So again, right from the beginning we've had this really clear in our mind like we don't want to design a factory that can't be scaled, can't be replicated. So that would be, that's definitely a later stage as we expand into America for sure. Sure. So we will be replicating. Yeah, nice.

Makes a whole lot of sense. Yes. Just a different way of doing business because I think, you know, the business of even 10, 15 years ago wouldn't, would just be. No, no, we're just going to build a bigger plant here. We'll just ship it because it's probably cheaper to do that, you know, for quite a few years. So yeah, hold just the whole also about it.

Really committed to hiring people and the economies we're working in. We're really proud of work here, employ here. It's definitely so Much cheaper to do it offshore. We don't want to do that. We want to be able to innovate. We love employing locally and supporting local economies. So we'll definitely do that when we move into other markets as well. I think it's a core part, our team is like 100% the reason behind our success. We have an amazing team in the factory. I can't speak highly enough of them and if we didn't have them it would be a very different business. So whilst manufacturing New Zealand can be a challenge and off putting, maybe for some people, it's definitely not worth writing off if you can, if you can make it happen. It's so rewarding if you can. So I would encourage people to look into options. Also a great advantage for us when Covid hit is that we weren't tangled up in these nasty supply chain delays. We weren't, I can't imagine we had been shipping all our product over from China and it was stuck in, stuck on a boat somewhere. Like everything would have ground to a halt. So I think for us it kind of protected us that we weren't protected from that, from that massive headache that a lot of people did get tangled up in when they were importing.

Yep. 100%. Yeah. Sort of being master of your own destiny, you literally can't put a price on that. Yeah.

And so, yeah, I guess looking to the future, what's what impact improvement plans have you got lined up? You've obviously got a few that you probably could have got in on your last assessment. But is there anything sort of major that you're, you're looking to?

Carbon reporting has been the big one we've been working on which we've, which we're all fully completed now, that was a big kind of process. I think I've learned, I've learned a lot about carbon and the scopes. I actually it my mind how green washy and misleading people are when they say they're carbon positive when they're only offsetting one. I've learned about the scopes. If you don't know about scopes, go and Google it.

Because scope three is basically 85% of most people's businesses. So when you say you're carbon positive and you're only writing off 7% of your business, that is just a lie. So I think for us it was really astonishing how much people pull the wall over your eyes when it comes to carbon. So the offset to scope 1, 2 and 3, which was, you know, a big process to evaluate and get all that and so that was a job, a job we're really glad we've done. It's all again, just about chipping away at things. Packaging is one we're always improving on. We learn the hard way. Two years ago and we had to see air freight like last minute order how much the carbon impact of that was. And now we have, you know, wherever we possibly can, we would never ever airfreight anything. So I think it's all learnings. I go into the impact assessment report tool all the time. So it's all in my head what we're working towards. I won't name names, but I do speak to a couple of people who are coming up through certification and you can tell they haven't thought about it for a really long time. So I think it's really important to remember that three years isn't very far away and there's a lot of work to do in that, in that middle ground. You can't just forget about it for three years and then come back to it. So for us it's kind of continuous improvement. And again like that tool is amazing for setting goal goals. And.

Yeah, it's, I think it's really important to keep on top of it, which I try and do. But yeah, the carbon one was a massive one for us and it's probably a good thing because it looks like that's the way B Corp is moving towards with kind of bare minimums which as it should be, I think that's a good, a good direction to be moving in to kind of tick off the bare minimum. So you're not getting companies sneaking through who have missed out some really big. Not sneaking through. That's unfair. But you know, there are some big things that really kind of do constitute a good, a good business and if you're not doing them then, then they should be being done. So.

Yeah, it's interesting to see the developments, but I think they're all for the good. And as the B Corp movement grows, it's kind of a necessary thing. You get so many more companies, it has to be regulated and kind of the, the goal posts change, don't they? So it's. Yep, it's part of what it is.

Yeah, I think they.

Bang on the, the carbon thing. The whole carbon thing just feels like it's Wild west at the minute because like I say people, it is but.

The problem is.

But most, even governments don't know what, what they're doing.

That's the thing. There's no, no globally standardized framework and there's no reporting. So it's. It, it is, it's. For me it's. Yeah. It's a concern that a lot of people, there's a. Probably a lot of people who thinking they're putting effort in to solving something but actually aren't and there's probably an equal number of people who don't care that they're not really solving something but they paid some money to make it look like they're solving something. So actually are we really solving it? Possibly not. So. Yeah, I just feel that, that that whole area just needs a whole big look at that because.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again it's education thing. I had no idea about scopes and so we started diving into this and I realized how many companies had misled me with their carbon positive claims. It's just a lie from most of their perspectives. Setting maybe of their business.

Yep.

It's just. Yeah, it's. Yeah. Google Scopes one, two and three. You'll learn a lot because it just, it's actually wild how willing people are to mislead you about their carbon footprint and it's really. Yeah. Along with greenwashing, it's, it's not good practice and I, it's, it's, it's really hard because again it comes back to consumers trying to do their best with the information they have and they are doing that. You know, they read the packaging like oh great, this option here is carbon positive and that one's not. So I'll go with the carbon positive one. And they're trying to do their best but the information they've been given.

Yeah, good information actually the one that's not carbon offset might have done more to minimize its scope three.

Yeah. Or it might manufacture locally.

Yeah.

It might have a much smaller footprint in the first place even. It's just. Yes. It's a very gray area and there's so much work to do. So I think again like the B Corp movement driving that kind of change and standardization which is what's so desperately needed.

Yeah.

It's only a good thing. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see progresses.

And what does the future hold for cleanery obviously other than global domination. Any, any new, any new and exciting products or.

Yeah, we are launching a brand new dishwashing liquid next week make which is really exciting. It's been asked for for a very long time and we've been so busy we haven't really had time to launch it. So that's coming. Got toilet cleaner in the works.

Various other things we're working on. That's, again, the advantage of having our own chemist and engineers in house is that we are always working on new products. We can tweak them really easily. If someone asks for something, we can do it really quickly. So, yeah, there's always new stuff in the. In the pipeline. But very excited about dishwashing liquid because before we started developing that product, that was one of the biggest sources of plastic waste in our house and I was very keen to eliminate that. And I think that's probably the case for a lot of people because it's such an everyday product that everybody uses. So that's another great way for people to just make an easy swap. So I'll be interested to see how that goes when we launch it. But, yeah, excited. So always adding to the range and pushing into new markets is kind of the goal for the future.

Super exciting. Love it.

Yes.

Love what? Yeah, just love what you're up to. Love your vibe. You know, we love hanging out with you. Just keep on keeping on. You're just a great example of. Yeah, like, just a cool startup that's trying to change the world. And if every startup was trying to solve a problem like you're trying to solve it, we'd probably solve quite, quite quickly. So that's, you know, that's why we need to grow good and do it quickly. So, yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for being on with me today. It's been great.

I would also just finish off by encouraging anyone thinking about BCorp. It's not as scary as it sounds. Just take the first step and work with Tim because Tim was amazing talking us through the application. I think a lot of people I speak to, like, I'd love to do that, but I just don't think we could make it happen or it's too busy. I'm too. It's actually very manageable. You just need to commit to it and it's a very easy process to look into. So don't be off foot. It's work, but it's work worth doing, so go for it.

I love it. Thank you. Appreciate your. Your sentence.

Thank you, Tim.

And yeah, I think you've highlighted a load of the benefits that we tell people that these are the benefits you get out of it anyway. So it's. Yes, there's going to be some work, but you're going to reap the rewards. So, you know, why wouldn't you do it? Yeah. And you make the world a better place. So it's win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win. Everyone's raining cleaner ear products.

All right, Ellie, well, thank you so much. Say hi hi to Mark and we'll hopefully get him. Get him on our cheeky Grow Good ski trip next year. Watch this space. Might. Might happen. Hopefully. I wanted to make it happen. Cool.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.