#99 Leading with Impact: Bron and Emily on Bicultural Leadership and Ethical Tech

Hey, Kia ora. Shimai Borodar. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you as always to our regular listeners, both of you. Maybe. Um, I. I do generally, I keep meeting people who have listened to my podcast. Maybe my wife will join that crew one day. I don't know. Um, but yeah, thank you as always to our regular listeners like and subscribe all that jazz. You know how it works with me today. In this latest episode, we've got two amazing humans from Wellington, New Zealand. We've got Emily and Braun from the team at Springload. Kia ora. Good day. How's it going?

Kia ora. Thanks for having us on podcast.

No worries.

Do you want me to start?

Yeah, you, you go first. You gonna be doing that all the way through, by the way.

It's all good.

Ko.

Springload with the beautiful br.

So my name is Emily and I am the co CEO with Bron.

I think it was the beautiful br.

Is that. Is that on your business cards? If not, I think it needs to be.

I think it needs to be. That's right. K.

No kana no inangi toku oku tupuna.

I am Bron. I'm the founder and co CEO with the beautiful Emily of Springload. Text.

Thank you for being here. So for people who have no idea what Spring Spring Load is all about, what is. What's. What is Spring Load? What'd you do?

Do you want me to take that one in?

You should take that one.

Okay, I'll take that one. So. Well, I mean, it was born as a. When I was a sole trader and just slowly grew organically, basically back in the days when the web, I won't tell you actually how long ago it was because that will show just how old I am. But back in the days when the web was just emerging in New Zealand, so.

Designed and developed websites, that's where we started. And we've grown ever since, keeping that end to end. The design of. It's not just websites now. It's web apps, mobile apps, it's digital interactions, it's digital strategy. Everything from.

Content writing, research, visual design, brand, user experience, all the way through front end coding, back end coding, the hardcore technology that sits underneath it, hosting DevOps, all the magic that goes behind it effectively to create digital experiences that human beings love and want to use.

Nice. Yeah. I remember I was at university when someone got an email address and I'm like, what's that? Why do I. Why would I Don't. Don't get it. Why Do I need it?

Totally, totally.

Look at us now. Yeah.

And the irony is it's come full circle because my children, I email them and they're like, I never check my email.

Yeah, that's so true.

I'm like, oh, on Insta.

Yeah. I'm increasingly getting to that point. I just. I just don't like email. I get it. I'm just inside, you know, this. Was it Marie Condo? Does it give you joy? No.

Is it, is it abuse?

Sometimes. I don't know. Yeah, so I kind of get that. So what, what is. What, what was it that attracted you to this Internet thing? Were. Do you come from, like a tech background or.

No, I. So I have a weird brain. Half, like, half really creative. So I did a music degree and.

Done a lot of design in my life. And then I've got half very logical. So I'd also did a math degree, which is very weird, very random. But, you know, so when I discovered the web accidentally, it was my flatmate that got me into it really. He was a programmer. He taught me the programming side and. And I was just like, oh my God, this is a match made in heaven. You know, you make something beautiful, but also get to do the logic and the sort of systems thinking and the coding behind the scenes. So. And it was at a time when I started helping out friends and then clients, and it was at a time when this whole Internet thing felt really techy and really hard and they were like, just, I don't understand it. Can you please just make it easy? Can you please just help make a thing that looks beautiful that my clients and customers want to use and, and just, you know, take the technology headache away from thing away from me. So nice.

And how about you? Well, actually, before we get to Emily, I mean, there is quite a strong link though, between music and mathematics, the whole notation patterns. So I don't think it's. It's not. Maybe it's out there, is. Maybe you think. But yeah, that in general, that rational.

Creative thing is. Is a. Is a real thing. And maybe we'll get to that when we get to talking about B Corp. Because I, I like to see B Corp as, you know, the certification, the framework is the rational, you know, what do we do and how do we do it? But it needs to be underpinned by the spiritual metaphysical of, well, why should we care about doing any of this stuff? And so, yeah, maybe that's partly why B Corp was attractive. Maybe we'll get there in a minute. But Emily, how did you get Roped in.

My journey is equally as strange, I think, as Bron's journey. So my whole background has been in financial services. I have spent, I don't know, 13 plus years, and I feel like I've been saying 13 years for about five years now.

And hedge funds and.

And spent eight years overseas. So I came back to New Zealand again, back into wealth management, and I don't know, got to a point where I was like, there's more to life than just making money for people.

So.

Yeah, and it just kind of came to Springload as the CFO.

And the first day of lockdown, actually, I started at Springload and that was an interesting time, but also great starting in a tech company because you're like, oh, this should be seamless.

And it was.

And then. Yeah, so.

And I think the. The thing for me is that both. The thing that's followed me, I think, throughout my whole journey is that being Mori, I have seen underrepresentation and commerce as well as the underrepresentation in tech. And so those. That's really important for me is to get more mori into these spaces. And so tech, I think, is super important.

For.

Being inclusive and kind of reducing, I guess, the digital inequality that exists in Aotearoa in particular.

And the digital inequity that exists as well. And so I'm super passionate about that. And that also ties beautifully back to B Corp, which I'm sure we'll touch on later.

We might talk about B Corp at some point.

Yeah.

So I guess back to you, Bron. So. And maybe we'll. We'll come back to Emily in a minute and just delve into that sort of transition, that purpose epiphany moment, maybe. But for you, Bron, was. Was the ide. So was it. Have you always been called Springload or has. Has the company sort of morphed over time?

Well, technically we started as, well, Bron Thompson trading as Composite Design because I was a sole trader and Composite because I was a mix of things. And then we incorporated as Composite Design, but then we changed our name to Spring Road and. And now we are Springload. Te Pipitanga.

So been Springload, I guess, a long time. But then we were. We had the privilege of being gifted a Te Reo name Tepipitanga. And yeah, so that really encapsulates actually a whole lot of the meaning of Springload in both the word Spring load and the emergence. So Tepipitanga means a tiny trickle, tiny stream. Stream that just gets slowly bigger and bigger and turns into a beautiful river and turns into a gushing waterfall. And that goes to so many aspects of kind of not only our own growth, but the growth that we want our clients to have. Our communities to.

Innovation and new ideas and working with people and planet and all sorts of things.

So.

Yeah, nice. And so, you know, when you first started as a sole trader, was the idea of purpose, you know, a thing or, or was it, hey, yeah, you need a website? Sure. I don't really care what your business is doing. I just like designing, you know, websites. You know, has that. Was that a consideration or when did that become a consideration on the journey?

I think it was implicitly always part of that consideration in, in that, you know, I guess this happens when you're the founder of a business that often the business ends up growing off your own core values. And so my own core values, you know, I would never work for a client that I felt was doing bad things. And, you know, how you measure what bad things are is obviously pretty, you know, you can have some pretty long conversations about what makes a good company or a bad company or doing good things or doing bad things, because good people can do bad things and bad companies can do good things. And so, yeah, it's, it's a gray area. But.

Yeah, so I guess it's, it's very much been born out of my own, my own personal values, which has.

Been codified more through this B Corp process.

And is that something like you've had from day one? Is it something instilled by parents or any, any specific part?

How. Yeah, I've always had this sense of, I guess, fairness and rightness and goodness and. I don't know, I mean, it would have been instilled by my parents. Yeah, absolutely.

Whereas Emily was, was maybe set on a bit of a different path by the sounds of it.

Yeah, I think, like, not saying your.

Parents are bad, bad parents, clearly.

I think my work, my work life has been.

Definitely focused on how much can I kind of put in my. I kind of call it my knowledge, Kitty. And so how much knowledge can I put into my kitten? How do I kind of do that from a professional perspective, I guess. And it wasn't really, I think. And then outside of work, though, I have always been really passionate about.

Community initiatives, about awareness for Mori inclusivity, etc, So I think. And how do we kind of advance Mori in particular, anyway? And so for me, it was beautiful coming to Springlight because you could kind of use those two things together so I could have a job which was fulfilling and also matched my purpose and my values. And I think.

You know, that's what's great about Braun kind of talks a lot about.

That. Our values etc being purpose led from a PKEH perspective, but it also mirrors into an AOMORI perspective, which is awesome.

Nice. And so did you ever feel conflict in your previous sort of career where. Because, you know, for me, that was something. Yeah, it's, I think it's more common than people, you know, which is why I like to sort of just bring it up because I think there's a lot of people who, I'm just in the middle of writing a book and one of the, one of the parts I'm talking referencing about is, is kind of what Braun just sort of mentioned. There are good companies doing bad things. There's bad companies doing good things, there's bad companies doing bad things, and there's a smorgasbord of all of that. But there's a two British comedians called Mitchell and Webb and Mitchell Guy, he actually went to the same school as me. So that shows you how much of an underachiever I am. If you haven't heard of David Mitchell, he's like, he's on the lot of BBC comedy programs. But there's this one sketch that they did where they're both dressed as Nazi soldiers and having a conversation, and one of them turns the other and goes, hang on a minute, are we the baddies? And it's just quite, you know, a funny moment of exposing, oh, it's me that's actually causing the thing that I care about that's not been done so well. So was, was there a, oh, hang on a minute, I'm the baddy moment for you, Emily, or was it just like a series of a thousand paper cuts that led you to go, I, I, I can't do this. Yeah, for me, I think for me.

I kind of got to a point where I was like.

You kind of. You banging your head against a brick wall. That's what it felt like anyway. So you kind of like.

Yeah, let's just say that throughout my life I've had a lot of isms.

And I think that's the hard thing as well, because you kind of normalize a lot of the isms and you think, oh, that's just the way you should be treated, or that's just the way it is, which is so not okay. But then also, like, from a values perspective, a lot of the stuff that my work kind of, I hate to do my work. So, like, especially in hedge Funds and wealth. You're. You kind of got to ask yourself, what's your why? As well? Like, what is your. What is your what's your why? What are you doing here? And what's your purpose? And kind of, how does. How does that align to what your actual purpose outside of your work life is?

I think. I think also it's. Both Emily and I are quite competitive as individuals, and we both have had isms in various forms. And I think there's been this, probably for me, anyway, I can't. I can't speak to you, Em, but this is almost this thing of I'm going to prove that I, as a woman can achieve as much as a man in this man's world, in this man's domain. And, you know, like, the number of times you've said to me, Em, that you'll go into meetings and they will assume that you're the person that's getting the cups of tea and coffee. And I've had exactly the same thing where it's just like, oh, can you get the drink? And it's like, no, no, actually. Actually, I'm the boss and. Or you have meetings and sitting around, and they will talk to your male developer who's in the room, who'. You know, maybe an intermediate and, like, not make eye contact with her at all because you're the one. I'm. You know, this. In my case, I'm a woman, but to be a Mori woman, like, it's just even worse. And so we've had. There's been, I think, parts of our lives where we've just been.

Pushing and pushing and pushing to get to a place which we should be able to be. That should be baseline.

Yeah. Yeah, Totally agree.

And it's crazy to hear that that's. I mean, is that still happening?

Wow. I mean, that's crazy.

Not as often. Not as often, but not as me. But yeah.

Yeah.

I think my big thing at the moment is take is like the position now that I hold. You can take space. Right. And my. That's. My big thing at the moment is go into. Go into certain situations and take the space. Because if you don't take up the space, a.

PKEH may all come and take that space. And it's like, that is the reality of it, especially in tech as well. Like, you know, I'm particularly the 1%er that's. That's out there in tech, and it's like, you know, how do we change those stats as well? And the only way we can kind of Change those stats is by being in those spaces.

It's crazy to hear that it's still, is still happening. I know there's, there's a company now I won't name them, but they, they will find it's a female founded company and they were sending emails to people you know about partnerships and what have you with their names and they weren't getting any, you know, any replies or getting, you know, brushed off pretty easily. So they then decided to create a fake email name and they created a, you know, like Dave at. Instead of, you know, exact sending a similar email to the same people and they got replies. And I was just blown away by that. That. I don't know, I just struggle to think how people like that actually think like how. Yeah, I don't know.

Well, and we have to remember that it's not just that they're, you know, that they're bad people or thinking like this. Their whole lived experience on our generation, getting to hear our whole lived experience has been that leaders, smart, successful, ambitious, good people, they look like this, you know, in all the movies, you know, who are the protagonists? Who are the heroes? They're white men.

It's crazy. Yeah, we did a, a panel event as part of B Corp Month and we had a bunch of female founder b corpse talking and, and the conversation was very similar. Like it, we, we were. The intention behind it was sort of highlight the great work that female founder because I think it was International Women's Day the day that we did the event or the day before. So it was kind of topical. But yeah, it basically came down to a very similar conversation that these female founders were, were saying was like how. How much harder it was particularly around investment. That was one of the big things female founded businesses that you know, struggle to get, get cash. Even though the data shows that actually female founded businesses outperform, you know, in terms of, you know, particularly the startup arena that they're more likely to, to be successful and survive. So yeah, the world is, you know, humans discuss. I think that that is the ultimate thesis topic. It's just like humans discuss.

Yes.

It almost amazed what. It does amaze me that we have actually all made it this far without just killing each other every day. You know, just, it's like it's. That is, that is the bigger miracle I feel that we haven't actually just gone. Yeah, I don't know. It's a weird, weird, weird world.

All right, so when did you know. So you sort of had this. I guess there's been like A vein of purpose within the organization. But was there a moment where it became like more declared or was there, were there any moments when you're like, actually I, I mean in the startup world, quite often you do have to take work from a company that maybe you wouldn't really want to do the work for, but I got to pay the bills. Was there a particular moment when you sort of felt like you'd really crossed the Rubicon and like, okay, we are now a purpose driven company and we only work with aligned companies.

I think there was definitely a moment in 2018 when we, that's when we did a merger with another smaller company called TouchTech. So, so we were, there were about 45 of us and then we merged with another TouchTech who were 20 strong. So that jumped us up to 65 people. So it was quite a major scaling that happened, you know, over a very short period of time and we had a, you know, a full team away day with the, the whole new team had come together and I remember doing a, you know, a speech to the whole team and talking about the fact that actually.

You know, we've got scale, like we've got real scale now. We've got not only, not only, I mean, I mean in New Zealand standards, are we a reasonably reasonable sized company ourselves? But actually the clients that we're working for are, you know, are big, they are banks, they are large organizations, they're government agencies, they are organizations that are actually impacting hundreds of thousands of people's lives, especially around Aotearoa, but actually internationally. And when you really sit and think about that, you're like, we have the ability to create impact at scale. And that concept of impact at scale is.

Something that we've carried forward from that day basically. And I think it was the end of that year. So 2019 was when we became a B corp. And obviously we didn't just become a B corp because it's a very hard process to go through and a long process to go through. I think it took us about nine months all up, maybe even close to a year, all up to, to get fully certified. But it was that thing of actually we're going to say out loud the words purpose led. We're going to talk about impact at scale. We're talk, going to talk about role modeling, what it is to be a business that makes money because, you know, profit shouldn't be a dirty word. Profit. You need to not only survive as a business, but also to fuel impact projects and you know.

To do good. You actually have to be able to feed yourself. And.

Yeah, so I think that that's where we, that's where we kind of started more officially. Talking about that purpose, leading and putting that out to the world was, was.

It, you know, in the back of your mind when, when it was you as a sole trader, did you have the intention of creating a 65 person company and doing all this or was it kind of like, oh, if I can do two websites a year, I'll be pretty happy?

Yeah.

Totally. Never, you know, like, never would have ever guessed that we would have been able to get to this point. So. No.

Any, any tips? Because I think it's. I've, I've worked for companies that have been through that journey. I worked for a firm of engineers and surveyors randomly as part of my midlife crisis exit from the corporate world. And talking that there were three founding directors and they. And the one who I reported to, you know, he always said the most fun we ever had was when it was the three of us around a kitchen table doing great work. And he said, you know, Now I've got 70 people said. He literally said, I don't even know who that guy is, but, but I know that I pay his bill, you know, I'm paying his mortgage, but he wasn't here yesterday. I don't know who he is. And that sense of disconnect and, you know, it's like, now I've got all these middle managers who are reporting, which I was one of them. He's like, I've got all these people like you who report to me. I don't even know, I don't even know what jobs are doing, you know, Whereas when it was just the three of us around the kitchen table, I was out doing the jobs and we could pick and choose. So, yeah. Any tips for budding entrepreneurs who are maybe, you know, brawn by themselves on the kitchen table thinking, oh, I'm purpose driven. I might want to be a B corp, but actually I do want to get to 65. Any tips or, or advice? Hire an Emily, I guess would be one of the.

It's really, it's really hard and it's quite lonely. And having an Emily, having somebody who you can just be like completely vulnerable with and broken in front of and just be able to say, I just don't think I can do this. I need your help. And know that that person, I mean, Em's amazing.

I can't.

I mean, Emma's a special human being. She would just say, I got you, I got you back. What, What. What can I do to help? So I definitely find somebody like Emily. And, and prior to Emily, I was lucky enough to have Carl, my business partner, who was, you know, involved in start and growing the business for the first 15 years of. Of Springload's life. And, you know, he's the same as. So I think doing it not on your own is really important. I. I was always, you know, I remember as we were growing, getting to, you know, 14 people and feeling slightly.

Ashamed. Not ashamed, that's not the right word, but reserved about even talking about growing, because I knew that the team loved and I loved the culture. Like, they loved the small size of the. Of the team and the vibe, and I knew that people didn't want to change that, and I was really nervous about scaling up and, well, how can you maintain that culture? How can you maintain that vibe and get bigger? You know, and even the thought of 20 people was like, well, it's just not possible. You know, you can't get around a table together or you can't play foosball or, you know what together. I think, like, I actually genuinely believe that if you are a good human, you surround yourself by really good human beings who are talented and smart, but also nice.

If you work with clients that you genuinely want to work with and you do good work, you help them, you help them in their businesses, then.

The money will follow, growth will follow. People want to work with good people doing good things, and that goes for, you know, hiring people. It goes to clients as well. So.

Nice. I love it. People want to work with good people doing good things. I think that sums up this whole. I need to write that quote down because that's a really good quote and I'm going to steal it if that's all right. And what was it like for you, Emily? So coming in from. I'm imagining working in the world of hedge funds and investments was possibly quite cutthroat and ruthless, and it's just about return and profit.

Did you. Was there like a. Did you have to kind of go through any sort of decompression process, or did you go straight from that world to spring load or was there like a transition?

Yeah, no, I literally went, yeah. So I had a weekend to adjust.

Right, cool. We're all done.

I call it deinstitutionalizing yourself, because I think you come from. You have a really institutionalized way of thinking about business, about the world. I remember first coming in and, you know, I firmly am a firm believer if you do good work Profit will follow. And. But I know that taking that outside to my peers who, if I say that to them, they'll be like, what, are you crazy? Because that's not what we've been taught.

Right.

And it's really interesting though, I think being in a purpose led organization where that's your lived truth. And yeah, it took ages for me, you know, when I first came in here because we were in.

Lockdown and it was all about create scenarios. I'm like, I've just done that so I can just whip out the scenarios.

And planning and forecasting. And I'm like.

Especially for our business, we're like, sorry, you don't plan out three years in advance. I was like, what? How do you operate? So there's a lot of kind of like, I guess, business thinking that I had come from, which was really normal, which probably wasn't as normal for this industry. And having to adjust to that took a lot, I think, just having also with Bron, she's very values based. So having a conversation where she wasn't like, you know, I don't agree with you. I don't think that's the way forward. La la la la la. And where she would actually come in and say, oh, I totally agree with you. How do we make that happen? And I'm like, what?

Yeah, how does this work?

Where are you from?

Yeah, and just, there's just so many. And yeah, just like I said before as well, like with all the isms as well, I think becoming. That had become so normalized. I think coming into a work environment where that's kind of stripped away, it took a lot for me to adjust to that as well. Just having, you know, there's been times for us in particular where we've not worked with clients because they've had issues in their organizations.

We have been impacted by.

Racism where we've said, no, we don't want to work with you. And so lots of stuff has happened where I've been like, yeah, this is the right place to be because this is the place that believes in doing the right thing and, you know, doing good.

Nice. Yeah, it's discombobulating when you come from a world where there are values that are, you know, on the wall. And then you go, yeah, but the values say this and we've just done that. And everyone goes, yeah, she still plays with the values. To a company where you go, oh, actually you've just done what you said you do. Okay, this is, it's like, it's, it's sad. That that is the norm. I feel it's just reflecting on a couple of conversations I've had this week. I spoke to a student at UC yesterday. He's, he's doing a project, looking at, he's got a, he's got a, an idea that he wants to get out into the world. He was just asking me around, you know, alignment of, of company values and, and the reality. And I said, look, you know, my experience of the corporate world is it is bingo on the values. They get some, you know, big four consulting firm to help them come up with four values. And typically they will include integrity and professionalism and then two others. Respect. Oh yes, respect. Respect. We're gonna have some respect in there, which we don't yet, which none of them we actually follow. But there is a hunger that this yearning desire for people to actually work with a company that does have values. And I said, again, the book that I'm writing, I've been digging out some of the research on how top line CEOs and executives across the board say that they feel a sense of connection between their purpose and the company's purpose. But frontline staff and middle management, it was like 85% of senior leaders said that they felt connected. 85% of middle managers and frontline staff felt disconnected from the company's purpose and they weren't living their purpose at work. And so you go, right, so can we have a conversation about that in the mainstream work environment? No, we can't just go make some more money.

It's like, no, no, it's like, and this is the big missing piece for me. It's like, well, all the data, all the evidence shows that purpose driven, whether it's B Corp or not, but there's definite evidence around B Corp's outperforming business as usual. Like, so the evidence for me is actually if you just care about making more money, actually connect to your values, be true to them, run a better company because you will, you will get more money. And so it's just, I don't know, it's really back to humans discuss. But I think. And the other one. So I emceed an event last night. We did a movie screening for this movie called Outgrow the System, which is looking at different economic models know for the future. And we did a panel event at the end of it and one of the panelists was Basil Paul. Great name because he's a, he runs a catering company. I love nominative determination. And he, he runs a, their, their company is a Social enterprise. So they employ people who've had, who have brain injuries, but they employ them as chefs and as the team who deliver the catering. And I just, he, he said, you know, I think he just tried to capture it really well. He said that there's, there's a, there's a special vibe in our company. And, and I think that's the thing that purpose driven companies bring. There is just this sense of energy and manner and vibe that you're doing it differently, but you're actually doing it as opposed to. I just always found working in large companies, the energy is like, like I say, you've got your values on the wall, but we don't do it. And, and people can sense that. And I think it's just interesting to hear that reflected for you, Emily, where it's like, yeah, it's like you had to decompress and it's like, well, okay, you actually do what you say you do. Like, and, and that's a shock. Is, is just mildly depressing. But, hey, welcome. You're part of the crew. It's all good.

Mildly depressing. Quite depressing, yeah.

One of my favorite stats that I know it was From, I think 2015 or 2016, it was a YouGov survey in the UK it was about 37% of British employees felt their job had no meaning and was more than likely contributing to destroying the planet. And then we wonder why there's a mental health crisis. And you know, and they, they've updated the survey and I think it's gone down from 37% to maybe 30% or something. But it's still, you know, still a large number of people, yes, are just doing something that they don't care about, that they know is possibly damaging people and planet. And it's like, why. Yeah, but I think, but that, you know, this is why we want to celebrate and have amazing humans like you on, on this podcast is to try and throw a spotlight and go, look, you know, if, if Braun can go from being a sole trader, giving something a go in an emerging industry and create this amazing business at scale that's making impact at scale, not, you know, it's achievable, it's doable. So, and, and you feel better for doing it. And it's, it's you, you know, you'll bring other people on the journey. So, you know, this is why we're trying to do this podcast, is to put the message out there like there is a better way. And it's, it's really achievable you know, like you started an industry. It all started a company when there was no real industry. You know, it was a nascent industry. So it's pretty easy if you, if you're running a digital agency today. We'll just think about how you can be a better company. It's like that's, that's easy. Like you've done the hard work, you've got your clients. You're not having to invent an industry or invent a A.

From scratch. So yeah, fun times. So was there, I mean, how did you connect to the idea of B Corp? So you know, you had this kind of moment. Okay. Yeah. Actually we've realized working for other companies that do good is what we want to do. How did you hear about B Corp and what? I guess two questions. Yeah, how did you hear about B Corp and what was it specifically that you were like? This is the thing.

I can't, I honestly, I can't remember very much these days, to be honest. I'd like to say like, and I'm how I'm going to blame that on Perimenopause. Allowed to say that out loud these days because it's, it's good for us to be talking about.

And, and it really does feed your brain. So. I can't remember where I first heard about B Corp, but.

When, you know, starting to hear about it more, we, it felt like just the hygiene factor. Like it felt like, well, if we're going to talk about being purpose led, then we actually, we have to walk the walk. We have to actually be externally validated and it needs to be a really high.

Standard of validation.

So it just kind of, yeah, felt like we just have to.

Nice.

And were you part of the process going through the B Corp, Emily, or how did you manage the process?

It was pre your time, eh. Was it?

Yeah, it was pre me. I've just been doing the research.

You just turned up and took the glory. Love it. That's how I like to work too.

So any, any unexpected twists and turns on the journey that you can remember, Braun, or was it. Did you feel. Because, you know, I think most, I'd say most of the B Corp community, certainly in New Zealand and mostly around the world, I think are companies who were aligned to the ideas and principles of B Corp. They kind of just had to put a ring on it. And there was maybe a little bit of. Okay, we hadn't thought about that. I think it's the, the, the, the lesser case is the companies who are like, oh my gosh okay, we're having to completely reinvent the wheel here to become a B corp. So. Yeah. But within that, were there any sort of surprises or any parts of the assessment you can remember that you're like, wow, we thought we were nailing that, but actually we're not. Or was there one part where you're like, wow, actually we're really, we're actually better than we thought here.

I.

I remember being surprised at just the time and effort and admin, you know, involved in it and em, you've been really involved in this recent round A.

I things like the gender pay gap and I probably shouldn't have done this but you know, actually going through the process of. Because we have a process of moderation every year and we go through and we go, oh, this intermediate front end developer is getting paid this and this intermediate front end developer is getting paid this. And this intermediate design is getting paid, you know, so all our intermediates, so we kind of just make sure we moderate them all so they're all in line with each other and we also go, oh, that's there's a male and a female and blah blah, blah. And we make sure that there's no. That everyone's on par. And to be able to look across the business and have our gender pay gap be actually ever so slightly in favour of our, our women. And I had told the team, yeah. And I was thinking, well, I probably should probably shouldn't have said that. But anyway, you know, we've got to celebrate these things.

Anyway.

So that was, that was a good thing. But yeah, I don't know. What's your feeling, Emily?

I think for me the great thing with B Corp, it kind of acts as a business compass, I think, for areas that you're doing well on, but also areas you can improve on. And it's really good to. It gives you, I guess, focus on the end to end process of your whole entire business as well. So like everything from who you're buying, you know, your drinks, from your milk, from right through to your employees and the benefits and the diversity and inclusion that's happening there through to the impact that you're creating through your clients as well. And so what I love is when you look at the scores and you're like, huh, you know, you get some like, surprises where you're like, I didn't actually think we'd be doing that well on this area, but we are. And then there's other areas which show you kind of the bits you need to improve on and.

And I Also love the, the fact that you've got, you know, you get the score at the end and you're always like, how do I improve on the score? It's not all about the score, but at the same time, it is about the score.

Especially if you're.

Yeah. Hashtag not competitive at all. Yeah, the score is interesting because B Lab are very much about. They talk, you know, it's not about the score, it's about. But without doubt, every, Every company that we work with on their B Corp journey, there's a moment where the red Mr. Sends and they go, yeah, okay, right, we, we want, we want those points. Okay, right, Go, go do this. Someone get that policy going. Yeah, we're going to change, right? Go and find out who. Who are the better suppliers. We can have to get us that. It's like, I think they should make use of it. You know, people are inherently, you know, gamification. I mean, no doubt you'll be all, all over this in your client experience. App development that you do. I think, yeah, you're scorecarding. It's like, that's achievements. Yeah. So I totally hear it.

That's great. Right? Because then you go, like, even if, you know, let's just say it's not about the score, but then you, you know, you know the areas that you want to get a better score in. So then you're like, you go hard in those areas and it's like, well, that's great, because that's only improving things for everyone.

Right? Totally. And that's what. That's kind of my take on it is. I think the gamification of doing more good is. It's. And it's, you know, some people will go, oh, well, you know, if you just, if you're just doing it for the points, it's what. I don't think people, they're not doing it for the points. It's kind of like, okay, well, we can do that. And it does help us be a better company. It's. It's like you say it's. They're bound to each other. And if, if getting more points is what leads to someone doing more good, like, does it matter? Like, they're still doing more good, you know, and you have to, you have to be doing the good. It's not like you can exactly claim to be doing the good to claim fake points. Like, yeah, yeah.

And if we need to hack this, these sorts of parts of our brain and our human wiring in order to end up with a better outcome for people on planet we, I mean, the companies hack use the, you know, behavioral science to get us to be doing all sorts of bad things in the world. I feel like we should be using that for good, you know, just go all in.

Totally agree. Because that's the thing, I think once, you know. And again, some people look at some of the companies that have certified recently, I'll use the N word of Nespresso and they're like, oh, how could they be a B corp? It's like, well, they are a B corp. They've met the same, they've passed the same test as everyone else and they're in the club or in the community. And I would rather, you know, the change that they had to make to even get to 80, it took them three years to get to 80. So it's like they have made some significant improvements to even get to the baseline. And I would rather there are more companies in even if we don't like how they operate. Because like you said, once you're in, you're now going to be, you're going to have to be better over time. And I'd rather we had, you know, compared to say Cadbury, who go, oh yeah, we've just invented our own fair trade scheme. It's fully legit. Yeah, really, really hard process. Yeah, you should see it. But we won't tell you what it's like because that's confidential. You know, I don't know if they do that, but you know what I mean, it's like they invented their own fair trade mark because, because they didn't want to be part of the, the global one. It's like, well, chicken or the fox guarding the chicken.

And I think that goes back to that, you know, bad companies doing good or good companies doing bad, they're gray in that, you know, we have a client match criteria so that, you know, when a client comes to us and says, oh, we've got this rfp, we want to, you know, tend to do this work. And we think, oh, do we want to work with this company? And we put them through this kind of internal client match criteria process. And, and the reality is that actually if you think about, if your goal is impact at scale for us, you know, trying to make as much leverage to change for good as possible, then finding a client that you could say on paper is bad, but they want to change, the leverage in that can actually be so much greater than the leverage that you get from a company that is already a not for profit or a social good that want to Tweak things to make themselves even better. I think that Delta and that leverage.

That'S really important.

Totally agree. Way back in the day now, I did some work. They're called Coco now. That. Do you hang out with the Coco team when they were conscious consumers back in the day, I did some, did some work for them, did like a 12 month contract with them. And that was always one of the big conversations of the team was, you know, so for people who don't know what conscious consumes or Cocoa is, a Coco now is mainly about tracking your carbon. But they used to be this app where they would help consumers find the brands that they wanted to support because they were paying a living wage or they had fair trade, you know, in their supply chain. I actually think the original app was better. Sorry, Ben, but I think you were making more, more impact with the original one. But yeah, we had conversation. We'd have conversations, say, well, what if McDonald's rang us tomorrow and said they want to be on the app because they want to connect with more conscious consumers and they want to know where they can make impact at scale. And some people were just like, no, they don't. They shouldn't even have a license to operate. No, not interested. Whereas others, myself included, were the same. Well, actually, if we can change McDonald's by one degr, you know, and if they said, okay, right, we're moving to having only, you know, fair trade drinks, you know, in our teas and coffees, like the, the impact that that has versus, you know, Bron and Emily's lemonade stand on the street corner of Wellington, who want to go slightly better at impact. It's like, yeah, and it was interesting at this event last night. We had a, we had some protesters turn up because they wanted to protest against one of the panelists. And it's like, okay, sure, look, everyone's got their right to protest, but is it really going to change someone's mind? Probably not. Like having a conversation with them showing that what you've got is a better solution. That's what, you know, that's what I keep coming back to. It's like if we as the B corps and the good, the businesses for good could be having the best party on the street, then all the Emily's who are still stuck in these, you know, less purposeful worlds will go, hang on a minute. They're having a really good party down there. Like, I want to be, I want to be a part of that. And I think we need to be inclusive and, and letting people come and, you know, check out what's, what's on this other side rather than just going, yeah, you, you are a bad company trying to do good. It's like, well, if that's where they've got to start, that's where they've got to start, you know, so, yeah, I, I totally agree, but I think there's definitely some parts of the B Corp community and just the world in general who are like, no, just close them down. It's like, well, that's not going to happen, is it? It's pretty unreal. And what happens to all those people working in those companies? You know, they're all now unemployed and out on the street. Has that really helped? No, probably not. But yes, it's complex.

It's hard, you know, it really is, I think.

You know, like, you can kind of, you can kind of see both sides of the, the coin. Right. But the, the problem as well. Like, I always, I always think you need to acknowledge privilege when you talk about these things, because some people don't have the choice. They don't have the choice to choose which clients that they can or can't go with. They just have to go with because that's what survival looks like. And.

And, you know, like. But when you are in a privileged position where you can pick and choose who you actually want to work with, then it's making sure at that point that you can pick and choose the right clients to work with or the ones that are doing good, etc. Yeah. And sometimes it's a balance of, you know, are they simply just greenwashing something or are they actually trying to make meaningful change as well? It's just. Yeah, you kind of need to do your, your due diligence, I reckon when you, when you come across those ones that are hints.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. We can't remember who it was. I talked to someone recently and they had that moment. They, they got, they had an engagement with the company that they were like, we're not so sure. They did a. They did a bunch of work for them and it was just greenwashing. And then they came back and said, oh, okay, we don't want to do a second project. And they're like, no, like, you had your chance to prove yourself in and you, you failed. So, yeah, go find someone else. And I totally agree. I mean, when I was starting out, you know, there's, there's probably, there's a couple of clients that I've worked with historically that today I, I would probably choose not to. But you're staring down, you know, solopreneur, small business. I've got to pay the mortgage next month.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

You know, but I think it's been conscious of that as opposed to the subconscious, you know, where, where a lot of the business world is not, not even knowing that they're the baddies. And it's like I have no idea. I don't even know that what I'm doing is having a negative externality and I'm not even aware that that's even a thing. So yeah, it's a journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. So.

So I guess when it comes to the doing good, where do you feel that you're making the impact? I mean obviously there's, there's going to be actual delivery projects for companies that are purpose driven. That might make an impact to me if there's any examples of, of anything like that. But, but I guess also from a B Corp perspective, looking internally, where do you feel you're making impact as a company internally and externally with your, with your clients?

I think first up, in terms of internally, like.

One of our big things is like I was talking about before, around representation of Mori and Pasifika in tech. And that's probably a huge focus.

For us or for me as well. And how do we change those stats? So I'm always pushing on the, the banner of trying to get more Mori into tech in particular, how do we get more Mori into all of the roles.

Here at Springload as well? So making sure that we stay above.

The.

I don't know that we stay above. We'll try and stay above the, the average for representation in terms of New Zealand.

And you know, it's hard and I, you know, talking to people as well in terms of that in particular, people think that there's a pool out there of unemployed MORI tech people that. And I'm like, no, they exist on a unicorn farm. And so when you find the unicorn, you need to kind of bring the unicorn in. And that's probably more the reality than the pool of unemployed Mori technology people.

Yeah, and so that's one of our big focuses. Part of our strategy as well is having increasing our Te ao Mori capability within Springload.

And that's not just for our people, but also so we can kind of help our clients as well in that space, but also just raise the awareness, I guess internally for not only our work though, but also just being good citizens of Aotearoa.

So.

Yeah.

And maybe broadly. Yeah. Any examples of like a good client impact or. Sorry Anything else you want to add to that?

Obviously, yeah. So I guess from, from an external perspective, you know, and I talked before about the client match criteria.

But we're lucky enough to have some amazing clients who are doing incredible impact. And one of the.

Ones that I like to talk about is as we've been working with Dr. Nicola McDowell and.

Her, her small startup business, which is a.

It's. We've worked with her to create an app that she can use to help assess and diagnose children with an eye condition called cvi, Cerebral Vision impairness. Which is, which is actually really common. It's becoming more common as children are being born more and more prematurely. And it's an eye condition, so it's, it's impacts kids in the same way. It's, you know, that, you know, when autism was coming onto the scene globally about 10 years ago, and people were like, just finding out about it. That's kind of where we're at with CVI globally. And, you know, working with her and her team on this app has been, it's just been a real privilege and actually knowing that this app now is out and this tool is out there in the wild for researchers and teachers and kids and parents to be able to actually assess and diagnose because what's happening is kids get misdiagnosed all the time and then get prescribed drugs and it just can have a really, really awful impact on their life. So, yeah, so projects like that we've been working with again, again, a startup which is all around, I mean, you probably know, again, again, especially if you're in Wellington.

You know, recycling the circular economy of coffee cups and in other, you know, bowls and other stuff. And, you know, it's just a real privilege to be able to be creating. You know, I always talk about how do we use our digital superpowers for good. How do we, how do we work with organizations who are doing incredible, you know, mahi. And how do we help use our digital skills to turn that into reality?

Nice. Love it. And I think, you know.

That'S great. I think that's a great sort of concept for people who are maybe not as purpose driven. I'm going to, I'm going to keep pick on old Emily. Not, not saying you're old, but the older version of Emily, you know, sitting in, sitting in maybe their job in their company who. It's just about making money.

I think it was Aristotle who, you know, described purpose at about 350 B.C. where your, where your skills meet a human need, their enlightened purpose. And it, in some ways it's frighteningly simple.

It's.

You can do digital stuff. You can do it for people who are trying to make the world a better place, or you can do digital stuff and we could try and work out how to create an app that would make 12 year olds be more inclined to vape or smoke when they're of age. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, but, but the, the, the, the for profit urge has, like I said, the. More I've been researching it for this book I'm writing. It's, it's, it's like we've, we've been fed this narrative and we've been convinced that, you know, money, money, money, money, money. But.

Do you do any internal surveys in terms of, you know, I mean, because you've got to think if you're a developer and you're working on trying to work out and help kids, you know, maintain or have better eyesight, you'd hope 99 of people that you employ would go, yeah, okay, I'm maybe willing to do a few extra hours on that because that's quite important. Versus, hey, we've got a contract with Big Evil Bastards Inc. Over here who want to sell more plastic crap to people that don't need it. Have you done any surveying internally? Because I think that if you've got anything to reflect on that.

Yeah, I mean, our, our team are.

Very open about their feelings on the clients that they work for and, or don't work for. And we've had, you know, all sorts of interesting conversations about this sort of thing, which I think is, really, which is, which is really good.

Yeah. Have you got anything to add there?

M. No, I think that's, that's in line with our client match kind of matrix that we've got.

And you're right, there's lots of like, it's not just, you know, me and Braun making decisions about stuff. It's our whole entire team. Like it could be. And there's stuff as well that the team will know that we won't know. So they'll come to us as well and they'll be like, hey, did you know that these guys did this? And then you're like, huh, interesting.

We've had situations where we've actually gone out to the team. We've said, look, we've been given an RFI or an RFP from this company. We, you know, we, we want to get your thoughts on because it's really, it's. Most clients are really Easy. It's like, okay, well, we know they're going to pass the client mesh criteria because they're not doing anything bad. They're, you know, they're, they're a good company doing good things or, or just a normal company doing, you know, not doing harm. And, but there are clients where it's like, you know, yeah, let's have a conversation about it. And we've had, like M. Says, we've had situations where, you know, a staff member said, oh, I'm not sure if you're aware of this. And then we've actually gone to the, you know, one of the leaders in that organization and said, can I have an open and frank conversation with you about this? You know, we have some concerns in this space. I'd love to hear, you know, what your process of mitigation is around this stuff. And if they come back with a, an answer that makes you feel comfortable, then cool. If they don't, then that's a really good sign.

Nice. Yeah, I just think, like I say, you know, the idea of connecting to purpose, it's really simple. Do good with the skills that you've got. But it's not that simple because if it was that simple, everyone would be doing it. And so, you know, kudos to you for doing it because, you know, I think, don't underestimate. Yeah. You know, the impact you have by, you know, hopefully the conversations you're having with those clients who don't make the cut. Hopefully some of them kind of go really like a, A supplier has turned me down. Okay, that's it. That's. I've not had that before. You know, hopefully you, you, you, you would hope that would lead to a little, like, even a tiny bit of soul searching.

So I think, yeah, your, your impact is pretty multifaceted. Clearly, you know, an engaged team working on projects that matter, helping projects that matter get better results and hopefully influencing people, you know, more broadly to sort of go, oh, hang on a minute. Yeah, maybe we should be doing some more good. So, yeah, go, you. If you can have that all done by next Wednesday, that'd be fantastic.

So what's the future hold? So you're, you're right in the middle of the research. When, When's your research? You.

Know, we just recertified last year.

So I've just done it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So relax, calm down. Yeah. Two years to go. You'll be fine. Yeah, you can wait for that panic for 18 months. Yeah.

But, yeah, was it, Was there anything from the research? Was, Is there Anything specific that you're looking at improving or is there. Yeah, looking at any impact that you want to specifically work on?

Yeah. One of the things actually that we've been doing a lot of thinking about is around AI and how we. So that I was having a really interesting conversation with someone yesterday about this, how actually everyone just goes, oh, AI, interesting, let's turn on. And AI is infiltrating every, all the apps that we're using, all the tools that we're using. Whether we like it or not, it's kind of on by default. But what people don't realize is that AI is massively, massively.

Power intensive.

Like the data centers that they're building around the world are just huge to power this level of compute and.

The.

The kilowatts energy usage, the, the carbon footprint, the, you know, the impact to the planet of AI and of big data is, you know, it's well surpassed the aviation industry. It's well surpassed, you know, all these other things that you just are, you know, you're obviously saying, oh that's, you obviously think of as bad. And so how do, what does eco conscious AI look like? You know, if we're going to start.

Thinking about embracing AI internally to you know, optimize our own businesses or to be offering AI as part of our offering out to customers, how do we make sure that we're.

Talking about eco conscious AI, talking about ethical AI, non extractive AI, you know, where was the data come from? You know.

Is this a new version of Colonization? You know, like there's so many different aspects to this that require a lot of thought. So that's kind of, I guess one of the next big things that we're.

Really focused on and I guess possibly as well the social impact of AI. Because if you can now have one developer using AI to create 10 websites at a time, then how does that, you know, I think, you know, you look at the, the, the comedy writers being the canary in the coal mine for where I think, you know, obviously a lot of people who thought the, it was going to be the, the menial jobs that went first through computerization and AI, but actually it looks like it's possible. You know, it's the skilled jobs to the knowledge workers who are more at risk. So yeah, there's a bunch, yeah, there's a bunch to unpack there. Yeah. So again, if you can have that done by, I'll give you Thursday to have that sort of.

Yeah, yeah, just, just use AI. It'll give you all the answers.

But I Only use it ethically. Yeah.

Only ethically. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've dabbled with AI just to do a bit of research for this book I'm writing, but yeah, I mean, to be honest, I don't know, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but you seem to see people like, running their lives with. With chat, GPT or whatever. I don't know, maybe I'm doing it wrong. I haven't found it to have really solved any big problems or. Yeah, you know, anything for me.

I think it's still got a wee way to. To go. But, yeah, I think the thing we need to be aware of is that it's going to get there fast.

Yeah.

Much faster than any other technology has sort of.

Yeah. Come around.

Yeah.

Any. Anything on your radar, Emily?

Again, I think it's just around.

Like, anyway, from internally, you know, how can we be better employers as well? And part of that is that Te Ao Mori strategy. But also how do we.

I think, you know, there's always room for improvement and internally, in terms of our practices as well, our sustainability practices that we've got internally, how do we get better at all of that as well, till we score maximum points.

But it's about the points, people.

I mean, I feel like you really should be the first 200 point B corp in the world.

Just saying, that's what I'm aiming for.

Yeah, that's it. I think that's. I think possibly that's going to be the title for this episode. It's not about the points, but.

Very cool.

Yeah, it's been really cool to get to know you both a bit more and just, yeah, love, love how you. How you're doing stuff and just, you know, wishing you all the best for, for the future and what you're up to. I think you're just a really great example. Like you're. You're a really solid example of a B corp that's just, you know, you're doing what it says on the tin, you know, and, and trying to do the best that you can and there's some good examples of that. But, you know, I'm the first to say that there's a. There's a. Probably a handful of B ops out there that you sort of go.

Should you be.

You're a be. Doesn't really mean the product that you've got is, you know. But anyway, we'll leave that for. For a separate podcast. So, yeah, it's just, it's just always good to to connect with, you know, the genuine, genuinely good people trying to do the best they can with, with what they've got. And you're just a great example of that. So go you.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, a couple of questions to, to finish up on. So who, who isn't a B corp that you think should be a B corp?

I think that everyone should be a B corp. I think like my, I guess my hope would be that, I don't know, 5, 10, 15 years, everyone, every organization is actually a B corp because it means that everyone has.

We've closed that gap between the haves and the have nots a little bit and we're doing great for the planet. And I think in particular from a Teo Mori perspective, you know, if we can care for our people, our planet, our sea, our air, then we'll all be better off. Which I think is, you know, that should be the goal for everyone.

And not just the people now, but the children and our children's children the next, the generations to come that are going to have a really rough time of things. Yeah, yeah, nice.

And who's your favorite B corp?

Well, I'm going to do, I'm going to suggest we do a shout out to one of our long standing clients, kiwibank. They have, we've worked with them for many years now and they're a big bank and you know, it's actually to go through a certification process like, you know, that's as thorough and as detailed as, you know, the B corp is. I think it would, yeah, I think go good on them and it's a really good.

Role model, role model to other banks and other big organizations basically to show that anyone can do it. It's not just something that, you know, yeah, anyone can do it.

I think that's the key. You know, people often ask me, oh well, yeah, can I be a Bee corp? I'm too big, I'm too small. I'm in this industry, that industry. And for me, I always say it's not about scale, you know, or industry. I mean, obviously there's some industries where you can't be a vehicle. But for me it's about mindset and intent. If you want to just be a better company, then you'll be a big. Because you will do the change that you need to do to meet the threshold. If you're not interested or you're doing it for nefarious reasons, you won't do the work that you need to do to become a better company. So.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

And how about you Emily? Or was it what she said?

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Fantastic. Awesome. Well, so if people want to talk to Springload about digital experience, websites, all that kind of stuff. So you mentioned, because you mentioned you're working with quite small. With Dr. Nicola McDowell. So she sounds like she's quite a small operation. So you're, you're happy to work with anyone of all sizes and scales as long as there's that alignment.

Yeah. I mean and when I say, when we say alignment like there are a lot of companies that are, you know, then they're not social good or they're not, you know, so they're not like, like amazing impact companies but they're just, just nice companies. Yeah, just nice companies. Yeah. So yes. So we, we do tend to work with I guess more on the medium sized organizations. Medium to large is where we've grown to and but we do have some lovely smaller companies that we like to look after because they're part of our wider Springload. I know, nice.

And so for people to get hold of you, where should they go?

So. Well, welcome to. Give us an email on our own email addresses. So Braun Springload or Emily at Springload obviously our website Springload Co NZ and just yeah, click us an email I reckon.

Fantastic. Well anything else you want to, you want to mention or say before we close up shop and go possibly go get some lunch obviously not together because you're. Well, I don't know, you're a welly to Diamond Christchurch. But we could do a virtual. We could just keep the zoom going and have lunch together.

Might be a trend. Yeah, any, anything. Any final thoughts, comments from you, either of you?

I just want to say thanks heaps for having us. I think the, that idea of, of shining a spotlight to me, I think it's so important. You can't be what you can't see in any aspect of life and so the more people that see that it's possible to, to make money and run a business and be commercially viable and profitable and also do good. Yeah. You know like if, you know like Em was saying if, if every company in the world was making money and doing good like we wouldn't have nearly as many as the problems we do today.

Could not agree more. And it's. I think the scary thing is it's frighteningly achievable.

Yeah. Yeah.

You don't. It's like it's not that far away. It's like yeah, we could all choose.

To do it today and actually we, we all have to do it, we have to do it if we're going to change the trajectory of where things are going. We all individually, our companies, our governments, our organizations, we all have to do whatever we can do.

Beautiful. Anything from you, Emily.

Just to say a massive thank you for having us. It's been great having this chat. I think this is the first podcast that me and Bron have done together.

Which is, yeah, we are just breaking barriers left, right and center. Here we are.

It was getting weird at one time where I was getting talked about in third person, but, you know, hey, I'm still here.

Hello. Yeah, we thought your Internet had crashed. Yeah, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, like an avatar.

You guys are taking the digital experience too far, clearly.

Awesome. Well, yeah, keep on doing the amazing work you're doing. We've never met in person either, so at some point, if you ever make it down to Christchurch, let me know. I, I, Wellington is the one place I just tend to not make it to every. Everyone we hang out with is typically Auckland or Christchurch or global. So, yeah, Wellington's a bit of a void for us, but do you, do you work with Wendy from Kin? Would you know Wendy? Yeah, yeah. So I've got, we've got a few clients in Wellington, so at some point it probably should come up and come say hi.

Other awesome people like yourselves. So we'll make that happen. But yeah, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to hang out and. Yeah, we'll catch you soon.

Thanks heaps. All right, thanks, thanks, bye.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp, how to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos, they're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.