#102 Stripping Down Waste: Anita Spiller on True Earth & Business for Good

Hello. G'. Day. Kia ora shamai. Welcome to the latest episode of the B Pedder Podcast with me, me as ever, your host, Tim Jones, that BE Corp bloke. I've recorded an episode yesterday, so I've already given a shout out to Shayna, who asked me to give her a shout out, who's one of my local listeners. But I'll give her two shout outs back to back. There you go, Shayna. If anyone else is tuning in and you want to shout out, just let me know. I'm happy to do it. As always, you know, every episode I'm begging for likes and subscribes like all the other good people. We've got Brooke listening in the background on this podcast and she was saying her favorite podcast is the New York Times one. I'm pretty sure they're asking for likes and subscribe, so I don't feel bad me asking for that as well. Anyway, without further ado, we'll get into today's episode. And with me today, I have got Anita Spiller and she is dialing in all the way from Squamish in Canada, and she is from the company True Earth. Anita, how's it going?

Fantastic, thanks, Tim. I'm excited to be here. And let's. Let's go.

Excellent. All things B Corp. Is there a way that you would say hello in your sort of local lingo in Squamish or bc?

Yeah, I'm kind of a hay person, which my mother always hated. She's like, why are you doing that?

Don't do that.

Were you born in a barn? Don't do that. So I.

I want to say the right answer is hello, but I really am like, hey, how you doing?

That's all good. Yeah. I liked it. Because in New Zealand we say increasingly there's more Teo Maori being used, so kia ora is, you know, fairly common. And then I'm half Welsh, so I'm learning some Welsh to connect to my Welsh roots. So Shamai is how you say hi in Welsh. So, yeah, just like bring in, bring in, you know the world to this podcast. So it's always good to know what the. What the local lingo is.

I love that we might also say bonjour as well, which is the French hello. So I'm actually all your French listeners out there.

I don't know if I have any, but if we do, bonjour Sava. Yes. So I'm trying to relearn French as and learning Welsh. So I'm on the old. Well, I'll Give them a shout out. Duolingo looking for sponsors. And yes, I'm learning. So what I'm doing is I'm learning, doing the French lesson. And then when I fail the lessons, which I quite often do, I then go back to the Welsh lesson and use the practice mode of Welsh to get my, my hearts back up. So it's quite confusing because the language is. There's quite a lot of similarity. So in Welsh, window is fenetra and in French it's fetra. So it's like sometimes there's lots of similarity, but then equally sometimes the word order of Welsh is the opposite to French. So I. Yeah, but anyway, it's confusing in your brain.

Yeah, I did some Spanish during the, during the lockdowns.

Nice.

Yeah, I still really. I could, I could maybe get us a table, maybe order us a drink. I'll probably find the bathroom, but other than that.

So as long as you can order. Helen, who I spoke to yesterday, podcast, she was talking about her, she's been trying to learn languages and she figured. So I know she was looking at traveling abroad to, to get out of the UK to do some work and she figured she wasn't that great at languages, but she figured as well, if you can order a beer, you're doing okay. From there. It's, you know, it's all good anyway, so just tell people who you are, what you do. If people don't know Anita, and they don't know what, what or who True Earth is.

Oh, well, thanks. So I'm the Vice President of ESG at True Earth, which sounds very fancy, but really it just gives me the privilege of spearheading our efforts to do kind of three things so reduce our environmental impact, to promote social responsibility and social good, and then to do some really good governance because the three things must go together. So I've had the joy of being with True Earth since the early part of 2020, April of 2020, and true Earth was born in 2019. So I'm an OG. I've been there just about as long as everyone, with the exception of our founders, of course. And my really, my day to day work is implementing our ESG strategy and making sure we live into our critical cause, which is to make true, lasting change that helps save the planet.

Nice. And the products that you're making are, well, you can tell what they are and then I'll say how we connected.

Okay, sure. So True Earth award winning B Corp certified, super proud of that. We're a household cleaning product company and so we have product for the laundry, the kitchen and the bathroom. But many folks might know us because we invented the Eco strip. We hold the trademark on a laundry Eco strip. So basically we have done a highly concentrated Eco strip. Our reason for being is to eradicate plastic. We're just trying to get rid of all of the plastic packaging that is on all of your household cleaning products. And so if you've, if you've tried our laundry Eco strip, then you're a part of our truth movement. And I hear, Tim, that you've tried it out.

What do you think I did? Yes. So that's how I kind of connected to True Earth and Anita to get this episode going. So we were in the States in January for a family holiday and I'm such a B Corp geek. Wherever I go, anywhere, you know, I'm like looking in the stores, fossicking around, trying to see B Corp stuff and you know, just, I take photos of them and you know, I'm just, I'm so sad. I need to get, need to get a life. But obviously we need to do, we need to do some shopping. We were staying in, you know, apartments and Airbnbs and we needed some laundry products and I was like, hey, this looks cool and they're a B Corp. Let's give it a go. And yeah, it's great products. So go.

Awesome. Because that was a hard fought battle to get our B Corp certification on all of our packaging. So I'm glad it's working. There's a benefit of B Corp right.

There have to, I mean, yeah, I, I am the outlier I think when it comes to, I sit here with my BCOP T shirt. What else have I got? I've had some B Corp tea this morning. You know, I, I, I, I live and breathe B Corp. I'm trying to just find as much, you know, as much B Corp in my life. I'd say I'm an outlier on that, but I think that we'll maybe get into this a little bit later. But I think the general trend is that more and more people are looking for that credibility, looking for third party independent verification of companies, claims around performance and ESG and what have you. So yeah, I'm definitely, I mean, I.

Think if we hope to drive a collective movement of people who are trying to make small changes to live a more sustainable lifestyle, it has to start somewhere. So thanks for trying us out.

Hey, pleasure. I just need, need to try and find it, find it over here. I don't think it's, it's not stocked in New Zealand. I've not seen it.

A retail location. No. You could do a subscription and have it delivered to your house, but there we go. Not yet at a retail, but I mean, maybe you got some space in your garage. You could be our first retailer.

Hey, stranger things have happened.

As a B corp geek, you could do.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's not a bad idea. Maybe we'll have a chat about that afterwards.

So how did the idea come around? And then just tell us a little bit about who the. Who the founders were and. Yeah, what. What their kind of story was to getting this happening.

Yeah, so we have three co founders and it was a family friend who actually invented the eco Strip and sadly it sat on a shelf for about seven years. He was a really great scientist and not a particularly good storyteller, so really hard for him to really do that marketing message. And yeah, one of our founders has a lot of small children and was looking around his house and saw all this plastic everywhere and was trying to figure out what he could do to make a change. And so they, they pulled it off the shelf in the early part of 2019. Went to market in April. It was one product, just one laundry Eco Strip. We thought if we can help eradicate the plastic packaging and household cleaning, then we're really onto something. They did a test in the market and they hoped that they could get just 100 families, a hundred people who might try it out, and tens of thousands of them took it on. We did get a little bit lucky with COVID and the lockdown where folks were not able to get laundry detergent on the regular shelves. That this was something that started as a subscription model and so we could deliver it to your house on the trucks that are already coming, you know, Canada Post, US Postal Service. So it was a really good mix to start with.

I mean, it is often that timing, you know, like I feel like life is like good comedy. It's all in the timing. Had you been a year earlier or 10 years earlier, who knows? But I guess that's the joy of sort of startup business. Life is product. We're talking. I guess it's fresh because talking to Helen, who's a marketing consultant yesterday, you know, product market fit, good marketing, connect to the customer, have a story that resonates, have a product that works, you know, da, da, da, da da. So I guess it's. What's that? The quote, you know, when sort of fortune makes good timing or good planning. I can't remember. That's quite interesting.

And I think that is, that is the case here. And you know what, what the founders of True Earth were able to do was to launch an entirely new product category. So Eco Strips in the sheet category is, is now taking over the world, right. And we're going up against Big Soap. You've heard of Big Oil, Big Gas. And we're battling big. So like, so that would be, you.

Know, the Procter and Gambles, Unilever's, those kind of guys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, some of them are coming out with their own sheet formats too. And so for us, that's such a win for the planet. You know, if, if we were able to trans all cleanups to this sheet variety so we can stop transporting massive plastic bottles and huge amounts of water across the globe, you know, that's a win for us. Of course we want you to buy the True Earth product. But you know, our sales went up on Amazon when one of our competitors launched a sheet product and they're helping us market, right. Some of these big soaps, they got, they got the money to push out the new format. So I think more than anything, we're super proud of this new category and the format that we're now able to deliver this product.

And yeah, it's always interesting, that dynamic between the first mover who's, I mean, I used to work for Johnson and Johnson in their medical device division and I got connected with one of their product designers in their international head office in Leeds in the north of England. And after a while I got to realizing that he just had the worst job in the company because he would do all these designs and create all these really edgy, forward thinking products. But the company, all they ever did was go and acquire a startup. They never, they never actually, they very rarely if ever launched an internally designed product because it's too much risk, you know, litigation risk. Whereas we'll let the small company take the risk, launch the product and then when they become annoying enough, we'll either try and copy it or buy them. So yeah, I think there's this misnomer that big companies spend all this money on R and D and they're the ones who practice. I mean, sure, I'm sure there's been some cases, but I, I think would hazard a guess it's mainly the small guy or girl who's like, hey, here's a problem, I think I can solve it. Oh, I can. Let's give it a go. And yeah, so it's interesting hearing that you, you know, all boats are Rising on this time. But then hopefully you get the, the win ultimately because, you know, you're the, the small battler and you're a B corp and you know, so yeah, it's interesting, Interesting. So talk to us a bit more about the, the product itself. So for people who maybe aren't aware, who are living under a rock in a cave and haven't used the laundry strip yet.

Describe a little bit. We'll put some links or maybe if you've gotten some like YouTube links or whatever we can put in the show notes. But yeah, just describe to people what it is and how is it different from maybe because in New Zealand and I'd say Australia, the majority of people probably use like a powder for their lawn. I mean, talking just specifically about the laundry products, it's mainly a powder and sometimes, yeah, it's the diluted.

Liquid form. But yeah, so talk, let's geek out on, on that stuff.

Let's geek out. So, okay, so imagine a very small strip. It is a highly concentrated cleaning product and there's no measuring, there's no mess. You don't have to figure out you're not pouring anything into any sort of a container to figure out what a small, medium and large load looks like. It literally is one strip equals one load. You throw it right in the bin where your clothes are, the water hits it, it dissolves, and it washes your clothes. So it is as effective and as easy as all of our competitors, while at the same time eliminating the plastic packaging. So there's no water, there's no plastic packaging, it's very light and it's very small. So super great for folks that are traveling, super great for folks that can't carry a giant jug home with them or a giant plastic container. So from that perspective, imagine a month's worth of laundry in the size of your cell phone.

Well, yeah, so I guess the big, the big benefits are like you say, not, not as a company at a high level in terms of your footprint. You're not shipping around big heavy boxes of powder because like a 1 kilo box of washing powder is pretty heavy. Obviously it's a kilo, duh. But you know, they're bulky and it's got a good amount of weight to it. And then like I say that the detergent in a liquid form, it's probably what, 90 something percent water, give or take. So you're paying to have a large amount of liquid shipped and obviously liquid used in a manufacturing process. So yeah, it's kind of really interesting to Get, I think, for people to understand, you know, maybe if you're in, if someone's listening and they have a product themselves, you know, really thinking about the product and input material source reduction, you know, how do we put less in, send less, but still get the same outcome? I think it's.

That's where the high concentration comes in. Right. So what we're trying to do is eliminate all of the things. Right? So you're doing your laundry, you're already filling your tub with water. Whether you're doing your laundry in a sink, in a washing machine, in a tub, in a bucket, you already have the water component. So the last thing you need is to be adding more water to that piece. Right. And the weight matters in terms of the CO2 emissions that we are using to transport laundry detergent. So if I'm sending it, whether it's around the corner or around the globe, anytime we can take the weight of unnecessary materials out of it, that's good news for the planet.

Yeah.

Ours comes in a cardboard envelope. It doesn't need to come in a big container. Right. And that can just go in the recycle bin when you're done. So, you know, if you're looking for a zero waste life, if you're looking to kind of eliminate all of that. And for me, if, if we want to see a future without plastic, we have to stop buying plastic. Sounds super simple, right? It sounds very trite, very simple, but I think it's true, you know, and it's really hard to do. Like you go to the grocery store, I love my yogurt. Can't find it in anything other than a plastic tub. I can make it at home. Not. That's never going to happen. So I have to find local solutions. And so what we're just trying to offer is one small change that you can make. And it's not just laundry now. We've done it for our toilet bowl cleaner. We have a multi surface cleaner. You know, we have a dishwashing tab. We're trying to take everything that's under your sink, in your kitchen, your bathroom and your laundry room and see if we can deliver it in a highly concentrated format without the need for the plastic packaging.

Nice. Have you come across a New Zealand company who's now global called Etique Ethic?

No.

So they do, they, they focused on personal care. So shampoos, conditioners, moisturizer blocks. But Marianne had had a very similar moment. So she's like, why are we making, you know, why are we making shampoos? And conditioners in a diluted format filling with water in plastic, you know, and a lot of the stuff that's going in it is chemical based, you know. Yes. They're non toxic, perhaps, but then you kind of put them all together. Are they. Who knows? No one's ever done the tests. Yeah. So she's very similar vibe. She's like, she wants to get rid of plastic from the bathroom. And that was also, I keep saying, she's. She, she sold her steak out of the business. She's now got a separate business. She's doing a similar thing called Incredibles. So she's looking at creating drinks out of like solid bars.

Like a tablet or something.

Yeah, like a tablet drink. So it's really interesting. There's, there's like this explosion in that sort of personal care food and beverage market of. Hang on. It's really dumb to be shipping water around the planet and putting it in plastic. But like you say, isn't it done.

That we got rid of like a bar of soap? Right, like the bar of soap that I grew up with.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. And. And then of course, we made it into a liquid format. And then of course we decided we needed to automatically foam, which is kind of blind, like mind blowing to me. It's like, really? Do I need it to foam? Yeah, I can just take that bar. You know, I. So I think sometimes we've just sort of let brands and marketers kind of get away from us. And some of the best things are honestly the things that my grandmother used, the things that my, you know, my mom use in the home. And we can, I think, look backwards often to, you know, those of us that have wise humans in our lives to think, yeah, we don't need to recreate what they have given us.

Yeah.

Wisdom of elders.

Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, we've gotten. And I, we will blame the marketing people. I, the two people. I'm a reformed salesperson, so the two people I tend to pick on are marketing teams and the finance teams. And you know, that's purely because the finance people just speak in a different language as far as I'm concerned. It's like numerically dyslexic, don't know what you're on about. And the marketing teams because it's generally like, could you stop me coloring in with your crayons? You know, just. We actually just need to go and sell some products. So. Yeah, there we go. Apologies to anyone and everyone in those two teams. I've offended, but I do it Regularly. So you should be used to it by now. Yeah, no, that's super cool. And then so in terms of the product itself, because obviously.

Recent, you know, again, probably blame the, the marketing product manager type peoples is those little.

Plastic pods that you kind of get for laundry, which again, is kind of like, I don't know really what the sales. And it's the same with dishwasher tablets that kind of haze a little bit of plastic with some liquid in it. You know, it's, it's better for the, I don't know, claims it's better for the planet. So. Yeah. What's the actual material made out of? Like, is there any. Is that all natural and super friendly or is there, you know, something in there that you're kind of working on to make better?

Yeah, I mean, I think we're always going to be working. Right. I think the biggest challenge is that we need surfactant in order to clean things. Right. So unless you're just going to use vinegar. You know, there are some challenges, some of the surfactants, but we really, literally spend every day of our lives trying to make sure we're using the very cleanest ingredients. And I'm super proud. We're very transparent about all of our ingredients. You can go on to True Earth, which is our website, look up any product and the full list of ingredients are there. Are we trying to innovate and do better? Absolutely.

And I think that's the key. I think one of the things that stops people doing good or looking at B Corp is they go, yeah, but we're not perfect. And I think this is the thing that, you know, at the minute, to become a B Corp, you need to score a minimum of 80 out of 200 on the assessment might be changing. There is no 200 Point B Corp. So no one has won B Corp. No one's kind of like, we solved it. We've solved all the problems the business is causing. And so, yeah, don't let perfection, you know, be.

And we're not perfect at True Earth and we're not asking anyone else to be. And we try to remember every day that our battle is against the plastic packaging.

Yeah.

You know, we're trying to put really good ingredients and really good products in the hands of our True Earth change makers. But, you know, at the end of the day, if we can eradicate and eliminate, like, we're at like 186 million plastic containers that we didn't create in the first place, so we don't have to eradicate them. Because we just didn't create them in the first place. And yeah, and that's what I would say to folks too is if, if you're after perfection, then progress is really going to suffer because we have to move faster. The planet and the people need us to move faster, need us to look at really in depth systems change. Like we have to recreate the way in which. And that's why we're so proud of this new category because this is a whole new way of delivering a product to a customer that now some of the big players are getting on board with. So I mean that's good news for the planet for sure.

I think that's key progress, not perfection. And that's why. So you know, when we part, the big part of my job is helping people get through the B Corp assessment. And that for me is the key. That's why I call that program Be Better. It's like use the B Corp framework to be a better business but don't try and be a perfect business because there is no perfect business. And you know you can do the best, you know, it's kind of do the best that you can with what you've got to make as much good as you can. But don't kill yourself in the business trying to be perfect which then ends up in your business probably failing and then no impact being made it's attention. But I think that's the interesting part of running a business in the B Corp world. In the modern world where you're trying to take on a pretty chunky problem as a small startup company. It's like we're doing our best man, throw us a bone.

But hey, that's the, yeah, I think that's the fun part of being in this world. It's, it's not just, yeah, let's source as many products as cheap as we can, chuck it in a plastic container and then sell as many through the supermarkets as we can. Brilliant. We drive off into the sunset with our bags of cash, which is possibly the old model.

So how did you get involved? You knew the, the founders. Is that how you got rubbed in or did you just see a job?

Yeah, no, I knew the CEO. We'd worked together on and off over the years. And when the pandemic hit, he called me and said, I have all this laundry detergent sitting in the warehouse and I want to give it away. Can you help? And I have a long history in social service and I've worked with a lot of food banks and services over the years and I said, what's a laundry strip? What's an eco strip? What are you talking about? What is it? So he, you know, he sent me some and I wanted to try it for myself, honestly, like, I, like, I'm like every other good salesperson. It's hard to hawk something if you don't really truly believe in it. And so when I used it and realized this could actually make a huge difference, especially in the world of food banks and shelters, it really is perfect built, right. If you think if, if you're someone in need who's gone to a food bank and you want to collect a food box, what better thing to tuck in there, but eight loads of laundry? So he said, can you give away a million loads? I said, well, that sounds like a lot. A million loads. So over the course of the early part of 2020, so mostly over the summer of 2020, we started to build some really long standing national partnerships. The Toronto Daily Bread Food bank was the first one and they took all 1 million loads.

And since then we're coming up on 50 million loads that we'll have donated and we're building long standing partnerships. We're looking for the large partners to really help us understand where the greatest need is. And, you know, as food prices are rising, as housing is increasing, as the world is getting a harder place to live, we want to support those that are suffering from poverty. And it's just a small thing, but it's something that we all can do. And so if anybody is out there listening to this, that has product in their warehouse and we're super proud we give first quality product. We don't, you know, yes, we have a home for some of our damaged products, but, you know, what we give is first quality. So if anybody listening has first quality product that they would like help, because the social structure systems, especially in North America, can be complicated. We can help, we can help connect folks to the right people. It is the right thing to do, especially now. And it was one of the key contributors to our B Corp score. We got huge points on, on that part of our program.

Yeah, that's, that's the design to give business impact. Yes. For people who maybe haven't. I think I've talked about the impact business models in previous episodes, but if you're new to this, obviously go back, listen to all the other episodes. Duh. But the B Corp assessment is split into two levels. So you've got operational questions, which is, you know, how do we run the company? Basically, how do we treat the staff on the day to day. How do we monitor our environmental performance on the day to day? But then there's these, I call them depending on your age range, it's either you're going Pokemon hunting or Super Mario bonus level unlocking. So it's the really high scoring B Corps unlock this kind of second level of questions which is where if you can demonstrate, you go above and beyond what's legally required as a business to create more positive social or environmental impact. That's where you unlock the big points. Any, any company that's really got over about 90 has probably unlocked an impact business model. And anything over 100, they've definitely unlocked at least one impact business model. So the design to give one is basically you commit to giving a percentage of revenue or profits or in kind donations or pro bono hours to a worthy cause or causes. And if you can demonstrate and prove that, then you get those points. So go you. And that's really cool how you're doing that with like premium grade product because it is fairly common, I'd say with even within the B corp community that's kind of like, yeah, you know, look, it's got a scratch or it's slightly damaged or it's been returned or what have you.

And I'm not saying you shouldn't give that.

You should absolutely not knocking that. But it is kind of like.

You know, I think there's a, there's a real sense with some B corps that, you know, if you kind of cut, cut them in half, it would be B all the way through to the middle. And I get that impression with you guys. It's like your design from day one around environmental impact, but you've also baked in the social impact and that sense of mission and purpose and genuinely want to transform. Whereas you know, I think there are other B corps in the world where it's kind of like, look, we're a good business, we're doing, we're doing okay things. But we're kind of like, we're not really focused on transformation and change of a category or a product or an industry. And I think that's for me that, and I think that's, I don't know whether you've done any research or studies on this, but for me that, that, that's the sense I get why companies like yours are performing really well is because people, it's like, it resonates. It's like, oh my word, this is good for the planet, it's good for me. And they're helping other people. Like, why wouldn't I use this product rather than Big Evil Bastards Inc. Who I just don't care.

It is, it is the three P's right? Like we always want to help people with their product purchases for sure. Right. Products matter, but people matter too. And we want to make sure that we are helping people. But we also have a board. We're also very interested in making profit. My team would not have been able to give away close to 50 million loads of laundry if we weren't making money. The more our salespeople sell, the more we're able to give away. We have a donation promise that for every $25 that is purchased anywhere in the world, online or in store, we're going to make sure that one person has laundry for a month. As we believe clean laundry is a human right and you have to stand behind what you say. And it is for all of us, B Corp and otherwise, to do the right thing.

Yeah, that's super cool. Super, super cool. And you're so right. You know, it is this tension between, you know, I guess doing well as a company and doing good. And it's a fine line. And there are really good examples of companies that have got, that have tried to do too much good and have folded and they now don't exist and the impact that they were making is now not happening. And again, you know, this is, for me, the exciting part of being a CEO or a business leader in this modern world is it's, it's, I mean it's relatively easy to start a business and just make as much money as you can out of it. Like that's old school, that's pretty. And it's quite boring and actually it's quite unfulfilling for you and ultimately your customers and suppliers and your staff, right? Yeah. And your staff will kind of see through that.

I mean I, I would get the impression that if we went and walked around your warehouse or you know, the head office, that's just a cool vibe amongst the team as well. Because companies that are doing all this good, it's hard not to just be enthused by it on the day to day and, and just knowing as a salesperson, like I know that I'm helping some people, like I'm, I'm, I'm maybe getting commission or however you structure your enumeration, but it's like I'm doing okay, but I'm also helping some people over here and I'm helping save the planet. It's like, why wouldn't you want to come to work It.

It matters to our staff. Right. You know, with almost without exception, like, staff are looking to join True Earth because we're a social impact model. Because do they want to go to work and do a good job and feed their families, but they want to help other people as well. So every one of our employees can give product to whatever their organization in need that's close to their heart. That matters. So if they're volunteering at a food bank, we make sure that they can take the Truarth product along with them, but we also make sure they can volunteer in the community, that they can have lunches together, that we're building a community of people who feel like we're all striving for the same good. I think especially now with so many people working remotely, that it matters when they come together, that they feel like they're a part of something greater than themselves.

100%. And I mean, it's. You know, there's evidence, there's data points that point to all of this, and that's. And that's kind of great, but I think these conversations are actually more insightful and more convincing to people than. Okay, there's some white paper here from some university I've never heard of telling me that B Corp helps increase stuff retention and attraction rates. But I think people can. They can connect to it through the authenticity of how you're telling it. And I think there's more value in that. Which, again, is part of the reason why I'm doing this podcast to help people just connect and understand and hear firsthand, like, no, this isn't the thing. It's happening.

Yeah. And for truth, becoming a B Corp certified was. Was not just a goal, it was an imperative. Like, since inception, like this. This is something that has always been on a. On a. Not just a wish list, but on the let's get this done list. So much so that our board mandated it the year before we certified. That said, you will get this done.

That's super.

So, like, that's some scary stuff.

Yeah. You're the second company I've spoken to where the. So there's. There's one other company that I know based here in New Zealand, where the CEO was interviewing for the job. And as part of the interview process, you know, he. He said one of the things that I would want to do, you know, they gave him the opportunity to give his little pitch, like, you would you do the first 90 days? He said one of the priorities would be to do B Corp certification. And he said while he was Saying that, that, you know, it's mainly the board who are interviewing at this point. They just start chuckling. And he, he said, oh, what's so funny? He said, that's on our, you know, strategic plan for you to implement. And so that's the second, only the second example I know of though, where the board had gone, no, no, no, we're going to get you to implement this. And that's just, yeah, super, super cool.

And I think we're different though. Like my ESG team, myself and my entire team report directly into the CEO's office, which is very different. If I talk to some of my counterparts, you know, many of them are into the Risk department or legal or finance, it becomes, you know, a carbon accounting exercise as opposed to, you know, ours is inbred into who we are. Like, this is the core of our being. And because we're into the CEO's office, we, we do have the ear of the CEO. Just yesterday we were talking about getting everything off of a truck and onto rail. We've done the work. We understand what the CO2 emissions change is going to be and it was enough for him to just say, we're just going to do it. You can't just start talking about this stuff. We have to have single trucks off the road and we have to start using the best modes of transportation. Yesterday he wrote a memo. I don't know about other organizations who can literally walk into the CEO's office during their one on one and say, I need a memo. I need you to just say, we're moving from truck to rail, full stop. If you need an exception, well, guess what? They have to come to the VP of ESG to plead their case as to why I should let them put it on a truck. I think that's very different from many other organizations. That becomes a financial or a risk exercise.

Yeah, totally. And I think again, this is just proof that you've baked in the B corp across the company. It's, it's a mindset and a way of doing business not well. It's this thing that we'd kind of need to adhere to or tick box. And again, you can tell the difference between the companies that have approached it around. No, no, this is now baked into the DNA of the company and it informs and enforces decision making across the company. And again, you can see some of the B Corp light companies where it's like, okay, actually tough decision. I mean, I'm not saying again, this, this is part of this challenge of balancing purpose and profit. Sometimes you have to make the for profit decision. It's like, honestly, we do. Like I say, if it comes down to long term survivalship of the business or maximizing impact, like sometimes you got to make that tough call. But I think the more you bake it into the DNA, the more it becomes just business as usual. Like B Corp is strategy. It's a whole different ball game. And again, you can just feel that and sense that in companies like yours where it's like, you know, it's kind of like, what would be Corp do? Okay, well, we should do that rather. Rather than. We should do that rather than not.

What's the right thing to do is, is not always the thing that you can do because you have shareholders, you have a board, you have profit, you have goals you need to meet. But we're having those conversations and I think that is just a beautiful thing.

Yeah, yeah, it's at least have the conversation rather than old school. Well, it's just about maximizing profit. So it's an. There's no discussion. It's like just send it on, on the, on the, on the truck maybe because it's going to get that quicker. We get data that so.

But come on, as consumers. I'm sorry, are you having a laundry emergency? Like really, you're having a laundry emergency? You need that to come on the truck at 10:00 tonight? I mean, yeah, most people know they're running out of laundry detergent and they'll go get some and whatever. You can come to the stores. We're in thousands of stores. You can get it. So I just think we need to keep it in mind. And, and to as consumers too, like we're offering a longer delay option so that we can send it on a Net zero option so we don't have to kill the planet. So they can get their laundry detergent tomorrow. Because nobody needs that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe you do.

And if you do, like, okay, well.

Yeah, you might have been told you need it. And I guess, I mean, we live in a slightly different world here in New Zealand. Like, you know, if you buy something on Amazon, which, you know, I try not to, but it's typically something that I just can't, you know, something from overseas that I want to get here. You're lucky on a week's delivery, you know, so we're very much. New Zealand is pretty poor or has, you know, I think we've missed out on this whole, you know, same day, maybe even before lunch delivery from Amazon, thank goodness or whatever. And so Yeah, I think, I possibly think in the US and maybe some parts of the UK and Europe, there's been this, you know, expedition of, hey, we can get it there. Like, you know, in fact, I would almost hesitate to say that with AI it's probably gonna get to the point where stuff will turn up and you'll go, but I didn't order that. And then 10 seconds later you go, oh, I've run out of laundry.

Honestly, I think like I'm talking to my cell phone and I'm talking about something and I feel like, like it's already on the truck at the end of my street. It's just waiting for me to hit the buy now button.

It feels like that's where we're getting to. So I think, yeah, some sometimes just actually, hey, just slow down a bit. You know, it's like, take it easy, you don't need to have it next second. Yeah. So when you got the call up, so you mentioned you had a background in sort of social services. Talk to me a bit more about that because like I said, I always like to kind of explore. Have you always been someone who's been purpose driven and looking to do good or was the call to come and join true Earth, like the moment of like, oh, wow, I get to now do some good. I've been, you know, sort of suckling on the, the teeth of the, the evil empires for the like. It sounds like you've kind of not had that moment of. I feel like I've been doing a lot of bad work and now's my chance to kind of a tone. It sounds like you've mainly been doing if you've been working social services. But yeah, just tell us a bit about your background.

And you know, I think it's yes and I think it's yes and really, I mean, I grew up as the youngest of four girls, single mom. I had a lot of really powerful female role models in my life who seemed to be breaking barriers at every turn. And I think I was surrounded by people who really believed in social justice, in collaboration and leaving the planet better than it was like radical hospitality and inclusion. You know, mine was the house where everyone was welcome. My friends were always over. I have no idea how my mom managed with four girls and all of our friends. But, you know, she really was my, my inspiration. I had an aunt also who just was always fighting for women's rights. So I, I do think it is a part of my, my DNA, but I certainly had a life where, you know, I was in Sales for. For much of my life in public relations. And I was building and growing and acquiring, you know, the cars, the houses, the golf memberships, the whole thing.

And then I. I do think there. There are moments in life you can look back and you can say, yeah, that. That call from Badliski really did change my life. I'm also a minister in the United Church of Canada. And so people are like, wait, aren't you following Jesus? What, like, what's happening? How are you working for a laundry company? And part of it for me is this beautiful intersection that I am able.

To follow my creator and also do good for the planet. So it's that people helping people part, but also the environmental piece where I think I want to have something to say when my grandchildren look at me and say, like, nana, what did you do when you knew that the planet was in crisis? I had the joy of being in Jasper, Alberta last week and spent five glorious days in Jasper. And nine hours after I left, it started to literally burn down. And 30% of the structures burned. It's like, we got to pay attention. We got to go. Like, whoever your God is or your creator and Mother Earth are, they're pissed off and they are showing us at every turn, like, we have to stop being so selfish. So I look at that moment when Brad called me to say, like, thank you, because it gave me this action, this ability to do something about it, to just get out of my own head, get out of my own house, stop just preaching. Because I do a lot of preaching, tell people what to do. But here's a way for me to actually put it into action and to say, like, I am going to fight for justice. I'm going to fight for economic, social, and environmental justice. And I think everyone has the capacity to do that because we all have to do something. So if you're listening to this, like, what are you gonna do? Let's stop talking about it and let's do something about it.

Yeah, Love it. Yeah, I totally agree. I think, yeah, a lot of people talk about stuff. And why is this that and why, you know, if you're fired up and you want to get something changed or do something differently about something, well, you know, go volunteer. Go go find a charity or something that's. That's solving that. That crisis. Like, you don't have to quickly joke and go and start a startup to save the planet and. And be socially responsible, but, you know, go volunteer. There's a great phrase from Gandhi. The best way to find yourself is to lose Yourself in the service of others. So I think if you are a bit lost and kind of not sure or no, but I want to do good but I'm kind of stuck on that materialism hedonic treadmill trap. It's like just go give some time to a charity that you are aligned with and you'll be amazed at what that might do for you and connections it might bring open.

It seems selfish to help someone else, but it really is yourself that you're helping more than anything else. Like when you can recognize and see in the face of others that we are more similar than we are different. You know, we are all walking the same path and, and everyone is struggling from something. We all come off looking good but really everybody has something underneath that they're struggling with. And so part of it for me is when you ask somebody how they are, maybe we ask like how's your soul?

Yeah.

How's your environmental anxiety? Like how are you feeling about Jasper burning down like 100 fires in California right now? Like I'm sure where you are, like there are so many something going on impacts. Yeah.

And I think I'd be interested on your opinion is because I think that the more so on that selfishness like say for me the idea of purpose. So if you're living a life of purpose, but the definition of purpose from the dictionary is something's reason for being or use or usefulness and something's contribution. And so purpose dedicating you know your life to something that's bigger than you and that bigger than you could just be your family. It could just be looking after your kids. Like I often I do a lot of purpose workshops and some purpose coaching and, and it's like if we, if we were just all really good parents to our kids that would solve a lot of the social and environmental challenges of the world because a lot of the reasons why people are destroying the planet and people and just generally being asses is because of that mis parenting opportunity where they're seeking love and affection and they do that by chasing all the rest of it. So you, you being the, the most soul driven version of you contributing to something bigger than you is the most selfish act that you can do, but it's also the most giving act. And I think this is the real conundrum in the modern world. It's like at the minute it feels like a lot of people are generally sort of just looking after themselves and I think it's a. On the full battle or the backdrop of that sort of neoliberal Reagan, Thatcher kind of 80s economics like you do. You just amass as much personal wealth like you do you. And maybe give some to charity and it will kind of all wash out in the end. And it's like, well, yes, but you just doing you does typically seem to have ended up with quite a few externalities which aren't working for us. So. Yeah, I totally agree. I just. I'd be interested on your thoughts. You know, it is. Is the modern. Do you feel as a minister that the general decline of connection to spirituality of any sort of kind, whether it's Christianity or, you know, any sort of belief system, do you think that has been part of the journey to leading us to this kind of more material, individual, individual. Individual, individualistic. There we go. Got it. Third time part of world, which in my view is kind of led to some of these issues.

I mean, a great question. I think part of it is that there really is no decline in spirituality. There is a decline in people attending church and wanting to be connected to, you know, whatever their version of church is. But when. When you look at any of the surveys and you talk to people, people are deeply connected. What they are struggling with, I think, is how do we live that out and how do we surround ourselves with people that share the same values? And I think many people don't even know what their values are. I have two. Two values. They're justice and joy. And every decision I make in my life, I look through those two lenses. Is this going to provide justice for the world and is this going to bring me joy? Then I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to do that. But if it doesn't fit one of those two markers. So I think the great place to start for people is like, what are your values? And my daughter called me up. She's like, what do you mean? Like, family's not one of your values, Mom. You know, I have two of my own children and, you know, two that I've been gifted with in life. And it's like, no, but you bring me the greatest joy of my life. You were the best things that I, that I ever did. And I am fighting for a world where they can have a just future, you know, where young people can afford to own a home, which I don't know about where you live, but in Vancouver, which is one of the highest, most expensive places to live in all of Canada and some parts of the world, I live in a place where, you know, I want kids to be able to afford to go to school, if that's what they want to do, you know. So for me, I would just ask folks, like, what are your core values? What are the things that are so meaningful for you that you're going to go after them without anything else? Like, that's the thing. So ask yourself what really matters to you. And then also, I think the pandemic did a terrible thing. Driving everyone home gave us excuses to stop being together as community. It gave us permission to just like, I don't want to do that anymore. I'm just going to stay in my house and I'm just going to be fed by whatever social media that you're living into that. I think we've lost the community piece. So do I want people to come to church? Absolutely. If you're in Squamish, come on over 10:05 on a Sunday morning and we can talk about community and radical hospitality and what it means to physically and spiritually feed people. But also, I think we have to get away from competition and start again thinking about collaboration. You know, when I was growing up, it really was a neighborhood, the neighborhood of families who knew one another. Like we knew our neighbors intimately. I'd be like, hey, I'm going to Sarah's house. And my mom knew that that was a safe place for me, you know, that, that we would help each other if there was a death for a neighbor. We would come with food, with love, with prayers. You know, I, I think in many ways we can go back to some of those traditional values that might help the world be less selfish.

Yeah, that's. I think the community.

Community, I feel, has, as a word, has, has lost something, I think, you know, because you sort of think of our community Neighborhood watch, so you kind of think, oh, it's the, the busy bee old lady down the street. Or you think of someone who, someone who's good in the community. It's kind of like it, it doesn't, I think part of its things, it doesn't sound sexy and exciting for people. And I think your reflection on the COVID thing is really, really interesting because, because we had a series of massive earthquakes here in Christchurch, 2010, 2011. And what was really interesting there was community did come together. So, you know, the first earthquake happened at something like 4am in the morning. I can't remember what it was. And literally we were all standing outside in the street in our pajamas going, what was that? You know, is this a nuclear bomb just dropped? You know that. Because that's what it kind of felt like. And all I'LL never forget, like the silence, apart from all the car and house alarms going off, that was the only noise you could hear. And suddenly the next door neighbor, who we'd never said hello to in two years, you know, are you okay? You know, we're suddenly, you know, we're all coming together. Oh, do you need this? Do you need that? And I also sort of reflect back on, you know, business originally. So indulge. My, my degree is in medieval history, but, you know, back in the day, that's super useful. I bet it's super, super useful, particularly doing B Corp consulting. Yeah, you'd be so surprised. But, you know, back in the day, a lot of us were named after the contribution that we made to our community. So if you're the smith, you know, you're the blacksmith. If you're a shoemaker or shoemaker, you were the shoemaker. And so the sense of we use again, I think, like we've had all this stuff. I just think the last couple of hundred years, Industrial revolution has actually been the aberration, actually, I think for a long time. I'm not, and I've said it before, I'm not saying that your average Blacksmith in the 1900s had a great environmental policy and his intern policy, you know, was probably not great. And yeah, there was probably some. They probably weren't paying a living wage. But you know, fundamentally the idea that they would, they were there to serve the community. If they weren't providing a good product, with respect, you know, they would be run out of town. It's like we don't want.

Yeah.

And I think that's what we, what we need to try and bring back is that idea of connection, community, doing good. You know, by doing good. We all do well. Yeah, love it.

I mean, and there was lots of pandemic positives too. Right. Most of what I pray for is that the world will collectively respond to the climate crisis like they did to the COVID outbreak and the race for the vaccine. Like, imagine if we were working together and not in competition trying to solve the climate crisis, that if we were working collectively and could use that as a shining example of the ways in which that we could fix. Because I do think all of the solutions we need for the climate crisis already exist.

Totally, totally.

I think they're out there. I think innovation matters. I think lots of innovation is being squashed. You know, I think massively like ours, it sat on a shelf for seven years before that eco strip went to market. So I think we have to somehow get back to community, get back to collaboration, start working together for real systems change. Because it is a systems change. This isn't one. Eco strip is not going to change the world, but a massive systems change will.

Totally. I always, Well, I sort of look back and go in. I think it was in 2019, a group of scientists in Japan landed a robot in an. On an asteroid in outer space. So I always like to frame that as that's something that we can do. So can you tell me why we can't feed people in the county next door to us when we know that we have more food? You know, in some parts of the world we've got rampant obesity and in others we've got people who can't, you know, who's starving to death. You can't tell me that that's not just a logistical issue. It's. It's not.

There's enough food in the world to feed everyone.

It's like, we can solve that. And I think on your. I've heard other people call it coopetition, where you're sort of like your competitors, but you cooperate. You know, again, great example. It was the medical device world I used to work in. You know, companies would, I don't know, a couple of pens. You know, let's say the. I'm holding up a black Biro or felt tip pen and a silver fountain pen. So let's say the, the black pen is the standard product. Some company invents the silver one, which is ever so slightly different. But they will then lock down, you know, a thousand patents around that new pen to stop everyone else who's got the commoditized version getting close to that. And you kind of go, well, is that actually helping patients get better outcomes? No, it's helping you maintain your profits for 25 years while the patent runs. And the other type, the other sort of thing I think of is, you know, what if Apple and, and Samsung got together and said, well, actually, how do we work together to create, to solve interhuman communication rather than who can sell more phones than the other. It's just like, yeah, you're obviously thinking, I wonder, or suggest that your spiritual connection and background is providing you a higher level of awareness and consciousness around those kind of ideas? So go you.

I sure hope so.

A force for good in more ways than one. So B Corp. So like you said, it was, it was on the board's mandate. The team were kind of like, we're bigger. B Corp, from day one. Do you know how they heard of B Corp? Because 2019, it's still, you know, relatively new ish around the block.

So I can take credit for that. So, yeah, it was a part of the ESG strategy. I mean, if we're being perfectly honest, it was a series A strategy. It was, you know, we wanted to show that we were, you know, responsible business partners with great practices, with a commitment to play our part and to provide some economic systems change. But more than anything, it was something for me that we could lean into and leverage the. The community. And while at that time it was relatively unheard of, you know, you would say B Corp to a consumer and they'd be like, I don't know. I don't know what that is. And even now, the recognition, even of the. The symbol is not as high as we. As we want it to be. But for us, it wasn't just a nice to have. It was something that we absolutely had to do. You know, for me, it's something that we can stand on and it's something that holds us accountable and we continually have to work towards improvement. Like, for those of you listening who are thinking about B Corp certification, this is not a one and done. This is not of like, we have ticked the box. We have done the B Corp assessment and we have gotten our score. There is a commitment to constant improvement, and I think that's good for all of us when we're forced to be accountable.

I like to say be corps. Not for Christmas, it's for life.

It really is.

And what was the process like? So you were relatively small sort of startup still at the point, or had you gone sort of pretty big, pretty quick?

Yeah, at that point. So we certified. When did we certify? We certified in April of 2023, and we started 18 months before that. So it would have been the back end of 2021. So still Covid, still locked down here? More so in the eastern part of the country, but certainly here in the west as well.

Yeah, I wish I knew now what I didn't know then. It was a struggle.

I didn't know enough to hire a consultant and even then probably couldn't afford it. I couldn't have gotten the budget to do it anyway. And so Kate Hubers and I led the charge. And, you know, we have a pretty high sense of ourselves. We're like, we got this. How hard could this be? No problem, right? So we thought we would come in with a score around 99. When we had done our first assessment, we thought, no problem, 80 easy. For those of you who haven't Done the assessment. We called it Whack a Mole, which was an old game where literally the head of the animal would pop up and you'd try to just beat it down, but then three more heads would pop up. Because you unlock these different questions and these different levels and what you think is super easy and then you get reviewed and you have to prove everything that you said. The thing I didn't know then was that I would have asked for the proof from all the business units in the moment when they were selecting their answer. So if they're saying A, B or C, it's like, show me why you think it's B. Where's the backup? Because the best part of B Corp is that they are looking under your hood. They look at everything, they question everything. I think at the time we'd given 20 million loads away and we couldn't get full marks. It's like, how could we have given away close to $10 million worth of product and we can't get full marks because we had to prove the impact. It wasn't enough for us to just say that we did it. We needed to hear from those end users that it was really good for them. But the best part of it was it's this beautiful gap analysis. It really in and of itself created the plan for the following three years because we squeaked in at 82.2.

That's a long way from 99.

Yeah. And it's not uncommon. I think people, you know, people who I help, they've either massively under awarded points because they haven't unlocked the impact business models, they go, yeah, look, we're sitting at 180 and it's like, no, you're not.

So yeah, yeah.

I mean, it is one of the best things we ever did, honestly. It helped us.

I think, get into the rest of the business units for them to understand what it means to be a business for good. Because they had to go deep, right? They had to really unlock and think about the questions. It wasn't enough to just do a survey and be done. And then after, in the last couple of years when we've been looking at the improvement, we're creating policy now, we're changing the way in which we're governing because of the answers that we had originally given. Because being responsible business is really important to us and.

It is a giant process. And at the time when we qualified, I said, I am never doing that again. I will quit in three years, less six months. Because it was hard, because we didn't have a Consultant. Because you know what? I didn't know you then. I wish I had known you then because maybe I could have called you and said so.

Good.

So, yeah, my advice is like, join the community. Go to every one of their webinars. Read, read, read, read, read. Ask questions if you can afford, or do that.

But it is, it is really powerful work and it really, it was one of the best things we've ever done. I'm really super proud of our B Corp certification.

Nice. And I think you've articulated really well. And this is something that, you know, people who I work with. I am very dogmatic about making you bring the team on the journey because the worst thing you can do is just have one internal person who's just chipping away at it. And then you send an all company email. Hey, we're a B corp. And people are like, well, were we a C corp or why aren't we an A corp? And what does that mean? Yeah, like, what does this even mean? There's so much engagement you can bring an agenda on, particularly for companies like yours when you're. I think that the big thing I typically notice with companies like yours where that there's so much good going on is a. It's almost normalized and people just kind of go, yeah, but that's just how we do it here at Truth. And having sometimes having someone external going, actually, this is amazing what you're doing. Like, I had that with one client, Genora. They were just like, yeah, but we just do that. It's like, not every company is doing this though. What you're doing is actually very, very special. So having the team have that moment of sort of remembrance or connection to the good you're doing, but also making sure that everyone across the company is aware what the B Corp standard is. So it's like, you know, your operations or logistics team are kind of like, oh, okay, road's probably not the best option if we can think about it. Okay, now we're aware of that and we know that that's points on the table for our next set. It's part of our plan, you know, and it just creates that awareness and engagement and excitement that lifts it and.

They start thinking about in their own individual business units. You know, I'm super happy. Like, every single one of our employees, I think we're at 178 right now. Every single one of them has an ESG accountability. They have their five that relate to their business practice and then they have an ESG accountability and our team meets with them to say, here's what you can do to work for our company that is trying to do business for good. And so they're, of course they're compensated for that too. So it matters to them. They want to hit their goals, but they get super excited when they come up with a change. Right. When a staff from one of our manufacturing plants comes and says, you know, we have an air gap in our delivery door, I'm like, oh, yeah, let's pull the bills from that. Let's see what's happening there. And then they uncover and they do a fix and they see all their bills go down and it's like, oh, you did that. You uncovered that. Not only did you know, and we know when you cut your carbon, you cut your costs. So great savings for them. So when you see some of these other units come back and they have all this excitement around stuff, you're like, that was hard thought to get there because originally this was like, you got to do it because the board said so. You got to do it because the VP of ESG said so. When it becomes internalized, it's a whole different thing. That's a joy to work with people who deeply care.

Totally. It's just, yeah, it's. I call it like the self sourcing chocolate cake of goodness. It's just like a souffle or. Yeah, this, this. It's just like chocolate just pouring out and it's resourcing itself and there's just more chocolate and everyone's just having a great time and you just build that momentum and you become, I think, an unstoppable force at that point for good. When it's just everyone and you're gonna.

Have folks, right, like any of your marketing people out there, like, to get the B Corp logo on our packaging was. Was hard fought. You know, real estate is expensive on packaging and to put that B Corp logo on meant that something else had to give. And so that was a struggle. But, but we're there and we're committed and we'll have it on every single packaging moving forward. And nice. We know that consumers don't always know what that means right now, but we know that the movement is growing. We know that we're engaging consumers. We know that they are wanting and looking to make purchases that meet these like really high verified standards of esg. And B Corp is the way to say that all in one little stamp, right?

Nailed it.

Microp.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And that's what we're saying. And I think don't underestimate the.

Addition that you will make to the movement of people who get your product, test it, buy it, see the story, connect to it and go, ah. You know, and whether that means they then start looking for more products in their pantry that a B Corp or whether it's, I mean the, the first B Corp in New Zealand, Steve Arda from Eagle Protect, he saw is it method who are, I think they might be a household product in California. Anyway, he, he saw this company that was a B Corp and he was like, wow, like their branding's really cool. Their messaging's pretty cool. You know, what is this B Corp thing? He did some research on it. He's like, oh my God, like that's, this is really awesome. Like I, I want to do it. And so in 2012, he, so B Lab wasn't in this region, so he had to ring the American B Lab and say, hey, I'm in New Zealand. And they're kind of like new where? And he's like, I'd like, I'd like to put my company through this beacon thing. And they're kind of like, okay, sure, we think so. You know, don't underestimate the impact that I think the consumer facing brands. You, you are the, you know, the coal face or the front, you know, front lines of this conversion because people sit in the supermarket. Whereas, you know, for me as a business consultant, the only people who see my B Corp logo are the people who already know about B Corp or the rubbish that I spout on LinkedIn or whatever.

But it is, I think incumbent for all of us in the B Corp movement to, to be talking about what it means, why it matters, who our favorite B Corps are. Like, it, it isn't enough. And we can't put all of.

All of the, the blame or whatever on, on B Lab to, to do the work of marketing B Corp. I think we all have to do our part, you know, and I think one of the greatest things about the B Corp is the community. You know, we've only been a part of the community for just over a year now, but you know, the relationships that we have built, the learnings, the community, the, the way in which, you know, you can take a need to this community and they are more than willing to help there. Isn't that like, oh, I don't know if we should help you or not because we're B corpse. We are in this together, working together for the betterment of all.

100% agree.

So what's the future look like for True Earth. Have you got any impact improvement plans on the radar or. Yeah. Any other cool products that are coming into the market that you want to tell people about?

Yeah, I mean, for us, we talked about it earlier, like the climate crisis is not letting up and so we have to continue to, to go faster and continue to innovate and continue to push other organizations to do better. So we're, we're constantly coming out with, with new product. It is for us. And if you look at, you know, I can't tell you what the next product is, but if you just look under your sink, in your kitchen or your bathroom or your laundry room, you're going to be like, oh, I wonder if they're going to do that.

Top secret.

Now, we just recently came out with an in laundry wash fabric softener, which is an awesome product. Like, not everyone uses fabric softener, but if you're a fabric softener person out there, I would say give it a try. You know, in combination with the laundry, it's, it's a pretty fantastic product. So, you know, we're, we're not intimidated about what's happening out there. You know, we, we want to continue to deliver products for our customers that is going to help them eliminate that plastic. And so when we look to the future, we, we think part of that B Corp strategy too is, is in the improvement piece in the things that, you know, we, and much of it is like, it's not that we weren't doing everything, it's that we weren't able to prove it. You know, like we didn't have a policy or we didn't really understand the logistics. We didn't have kind of the backup paperwork. And I think to, to strengthen the hold and the level of accountability, you know, we have to just keep chipping away at it. You know, our goal is always of between a 15 and 20% improvement every year.

Nice.

And that's a heavy lift for an organization that's trying to launch new products and save the world. But yeah, we're, we're certainly working on it. And, and then of course, we don't know what the new standards are going to look like.

Yep.

We will not be grandfathered into that. And so us, like everyone else, will have to look to those new standards. But I am all for it. You know, if we're going to level up the accountability, if we're going to level up to make sure that there are no loopholes, because, you know, you could do really well in one of the five categories and not so well in another. And so I do think we need to level that and make sure there are these minimum standards. So I say that now I'm looking for minimum standards. We'll see what they are.

You might be changing your tune on that one. It's funny, I was working with a client last week. We did, because. So some clients like to just do like an all day event. They just like lock the team in the room and we don't leave. So we've got every question answered. Others are just horrified at the thought of that. It's like, no, we want to do it.

That sounds terrible.

Anyway, we. With all my clients, I do a kickoff session where we explain like, you know, actually, what is B Corp? Where did B Corp come from? What are some examples of B Corp? So just to set the scene and get everyone excited and, you know, talk about controversial industries and how there are some companies that can't be a B corp. And someone always goes, oh, that's interesting that tobacco can't be be caught, but alcohol can. I normally say, yeah, at the end of the day when we've gone through B Corp, ask me again whether you think alcohol should be a B corp or not. At the end of the day, they're like, yeah, I get it. I quite like a glass of wine. Have you gone through the B Corp in a day? So, yeah, super cool. Well, I have no doubt that the world and humanity is in safer hands with Anita Spiller being a part of it and the same for True Earth. So just thank you so much for being willing and able to jump on the podcast with some crazy bloke in New Zealand that you've never heard of. And yeah, keep up the amazing work that you did. You know, I think you're like, I say, I don't say it to every podcast guest. You know, I think you're genuinely one of those companies that is. You're making orders of change that you probably don't recognize and probably won't recognize until 10 years down the line and you'll look back and go, actually, yeah, that was quite cool. We, we did a thing.

Sometimes I think like, we're so far ahead of it, right? Like we're, we're really, we're kind of, we're sprinting if we're using kind of, you know, Olympics metaphors right now. But you don't have to sprint though too. And I might just say as a final, like the one, the one mistake I think I continue to make is that I don't say, I don't know I don't say I need help. I don't say I don't understand that. So I, I think we can all live into. Maybe we just need to be like toddlers, right? Like four year olds say, but why? But why? But why? I don't know why. It's like I think we can all be more comfortable in just leaning into. There are so many experts out there that can help us do this work that we don't all have to pretend that we know everything. It's okay to know nothing.

100.

Thank you for having me. This was a joy.

It's been great. So, yeah, keep up the great work and hopefully I'll get over to Vancouver at some point and drop in maybe for a service on the way to some skiing.

I love that you didn't ask me what my favorite B Corp was, so.

I was actually gonna. You're right, I didn't. So who is your favorite BE Corp?

Well, other than True Earth, of course. Cheekbone Beauty.

Cheekbone.

Do you know Jen Harper?

No. If you know, let's, let's connect and let's get her on the podcast.

You should interview her. So she is one of the first indigenous owned and founded cosmetics company and she really wanted to see indigenous women represented and she wanted to produce really great product. She has an incredible line of product that started with lip gloss. You know, what girl doesn't like a little bit of lip gloss? And she's creating space in the beauty industry. And so if you haven't heard of Cheekbone Beauty. Cheekbone Beauty, then look it up, buy some product. I think they're an incredible example of B Corp. You know, I think Jen often said something like representation saves lives.

And I think that's true. She tells an incredible story about her brother and so please interview her just so I can listen to her again.

If you've got a connection. Yeah, let me know. If not, I'll just reach out to her and say Anita said yeah, she'd talk to you.

Cheekbone Beauty.

Cool.

And True Earth.

And True Earth. Yeah. So, yeah. So if people are listening and they want to get yourself some True Earth products, it's your website. Is True Earth True Earth or True Earth?

No, True earth. Yeah. So.earth is an extension.

Nice. Who knew? It's about time.

Who knew?

Yeah.

Tru Earth.

Tru. There we go. Cool. So we'll put that in the show notes for the rest of it. But yeah, again, thank you so much, Anita. It's been great to connect. Absolutely love your work and yeah, hopefully we'll meet in person one day. Who knows?

Come see us in in Canada.

Will do.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.