#17 B Corp Is Better Business?

Foreign.

Welcome to Purpose Fueled Performance with me, your host, Tim Jones, the Grow good guy.

This podcast was originally performed before a live studio audience and that is to say my podcast has taken on a slightly different format from from now on because I'm initially live streaming the content on LinkedIn. So it's a nice way to get double your content. Really. So yeah, this event was a live streamed event on my LinkedIn personal page. So if you're interested in watching these events live and you want to be involved in asking questions or posting comments, if you're not connected connected with me on LinkedIn already do. So there should be a link in the show notes. Yeah. So in this, it's March 2021. When we recorded this in March 2021, it was B Corporation month. And so the, I guess the tagline for B Core month this year was better business is B corp. And so I wanted to test that. Is that true? So we, I pulled together a group of some B corporations, some new, some old, from mainly from RTRA New Zealand, but also incorporating or including Steve Arda from Equal Protect, who's now based in California, but he's a Kiwi originally to try and answer the question, is B core a better business? So yeah, sit back, relax, get yourself a cup of tea and see if maybe your business could be a better business by being a B corporation. And if that is the case, there's a guy that I know, he's a qu. Good guy, he's a pretty decent guy and he might be able to help you become a better business by being a B corporation. So yeah, give me a call. Catcha.

Well, there we go. Apparently we're live, so.

Oh, and we have Austin joining us just in the nick of time. There we go. Cool. So hopefully we're live. Hopefully people have LinkedIn. If you can hear us, let us know. This is all new to all of us. Hopefully we're working. So yeah. Kia ora. Welcome to B Core is Better Business. Question mark Live panel event with some awesome, amazing humans from various different B corporations, all theoretically Kiwi, apart from Steve, who's in America, but we won't hold that against him. So really, I guess the aim behind what I'm trying to do here is introduce the idea, the topic of B corporations to more people in New Zealand. We've got quite a few of them already. I think we're at 46 now. I keep losing count. We keep getting more and more every day, but also really just to get under the hood a little bit of what B corporations are why some of these amazing organizations chose to go down that route. What have they got out of being a B corporation? And maybe what the future of B corporation in New Zealand looks like. So, yeah, I guess it was always going to be my intention to pick on Steve first because Steve, it is genuinely all your fault that any of us here are B corporations in New Zealand because you were the first B corporation to certify in New Zealand. And what year was that?

It was 2012, I believe. I get confused. It's an age thing. I get confused. But it's also been in America thing, I think been a day behind. But I don't think I can take the blame for the B Corps. I think you can yourself. You've championed the thing. We sort of were first for various reasons which I can go into. But if I do, then no one else here will have anything to say because there'll be no time. But it was just one of those things we did. But yeah, it's been a long time and I think we've recertified for the third time last year, which was really tough, to be honest. We're in a difficult industry to be a big corp. But we, you know, managed to get through each each time and luckily it's now three years, which helps us.

Yeah. So what was it though that made you. I mean, it was. It wasn't even a thing, you know, for you to sort of find this thing or have connected to this idea of B corporations. Like what was it that drove you to certify and be the first in New Zealand?

Well, it's interesting in Amy's Fine Foods, which is a customer of ours over here, has just become a B corp and they were a B corp the day they started, but they just weren't certified. So I like to think we were reasonably similar. We ran the business in that way. We wanted to empower people to have wonderful lives. And even selling disposable gloves, you can still be excited about what you do. And we are literally on a mission to save the world one glove at a time. We're in the States, been here five years and we're making really good progress here and saving the US Particularly the food system over here. One glove at a time. And it needs it. They need somebody like us in our business. But so that's how we started. Linda and I started the business. And then in 2006 and I was traveling to Europe via the States and one time I stopped in at San Francisco and discovered a company called Method who do detergents and dishwashing and love their business because they, like us, are in a very boring business. And they turned it around into a bit of a designer saying they were recently bought, well, not recently, a few years ago, bought out by Ecova, which is a European, I think B Corp as well. But they've done some wonderful stuff. And through that I found the San Francisco office of B Lab at the time and met up with them, this is probably in 2011. And I just liked the whole idea of it and thought it would be interesting to go through the process. And I have to say they were incredibly patient.

We were talking with them from all around the world. And at that stage the impact assessment was very American orientated and there were all sorts of things that didn't really fit with New Zealand. But it took us about a year, but we eventually got through and it was just really nice. And then no one noticed, of course, except us. And no one even knew what it was. I think we were the third in Australasia and about just under 200 or maybe around 200 around the world at that stage. And it was pretty cool. And the only person who actually noticed was a guy called Tim Jones who came knocking on our door soon after and said, damn, I thought I was going to be the first B Corp in New Zealand. And so, and that's where it sort of all started. So it's been an interesting and rewarding experience. You know, we, we tell people we are no way a social enterprise. We sell products for profit, unashamedly. It's how we do that and what we do with the profit that's the difference. You know, we're. Our business is built around a profit center, not around a social goal as such. But we are saving. We know, for example, we're saving hundreds of thousands of pounds to use the American lingo of waste every year. Just by helping people with their process, we're keeping factories safe for workers in Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia and China. So all these sort of things are a byproduct of running a business that, that is run under the B Corp sort of philosophy.

Nice. And I'll. How about you, Tesh? Because Tesh, you're, I think maybe B Cord number 42, 43. I've suggested to B Lab originally that kind of like the All Blacks, you know, when you get your test cap, you know, you get given a T shirt, you know, B Corp number 42 or whatever, so that we all know you know, who's who and what's what. But you're one of the newer B corporations. So what. What was it about the movement or. Yeah. That made you want to be a part of it and go through the certification?

So we got our certification through start of the year in end of Jan, and that was, after working towards it for the last nearly two years, a good year and a half. And, yeah, it was quite a process. It was something that I'd heard about and was familiar with, and I'd sort of recognized other brands that I really admire who were B corps and thought, yep, we want to become one of those. But I didn't realize how much was involved. The process was a lot more intense and detailed and thorough than I think I could have imagined. And that was great. We learned heaps going through the process. We came across all these things that we should have already had in place and needed to put in place. And so now we have those all sorted. So it was almost like a business coaching tool. At the same time, you know, I found it really educational. I really enjoyed everything that we learned out of it. And then it felt truly satisfying when we did get our certification because we've gone through other certification processes and this was by far the most intense.

That's really. Yeah, I think that's true. Reflection. I don't think anyone relishes going through the assessment, although obviously we're trying to coax more people to want to be a B corporation. But I think that that is the validity of the assessment is that it's not just, hey, take my money, we'll put a stamp on our business and, you know, we can claim now that we're doing some good. You know, and I think Steve's alluded to it being. How is it you refer to yourselves again, like the cleanest, dirtiest business in the world or something along those lines? That was a great tagline you had.

We just call ourselves the DDSB Corp. In the world, but with the biggest opportunity because we. Shipping a product from a long way away gets used for 10 minutes and then thrown out. So how do we make that better? Yeah, that's sort of underlying theme.

Nice. And so, yeah, it's open to the floor. I mean, who else like going through the assessment? I know a lot of businesses. I love that description. Tash. It's kind of like a coaching program for your business because you do get asked a lot of questions that. In. In other. Yeah. Frameworks or just questions that you wouldn't typically ponder on as a business owner. So, yeah, anyone else from the floor who. Who was kind of intrigued or shocked or had Some epiphanies when they were going through the assessment as to. Yeah. The types of questions you were being asked.

Tim, we've just pressed go this morning. We've just sent our second assessment in. So that went out at 11am this morning. So we've just finished the, the recertification. It's like hallelujah, it's done, you know. And look, I think for us I got interested in it because of Alex Hennent who's on the board of B Lab in Australia and he said, harv, I think you'll be really interested in this. There's some great companies and so forth. And so that's what I said. And I think picking up on Tisha's point is that for me B Corp is a action. So it's about actually doing something and we learned a lot about better business by going through the assessment and I think it's just a. I think it's something that's overlooked. For me it's more about what you can learn about your business than getting the stamp. The stamp's lovely to get but I think it's really important to look at it as a learning tool and where to next. And so with us we're looking to lift our mark. Our first mark was 84 and a half. This time I think it'll be well over 90 but let's see what they come back with. But I think it's for us it is a guide to actually.

Performing our commercial business in a better way and giving us the guideline. And so just a quick of something that we put in place because the wonderful thing with the assessment.

It tells you what they're looking for. We've put in place now a process where by a whistleblower policy. So now we have got somebody outside the business that any staff can contact, if there is any bullying, any sexual misconduct, any issues, any of the staff can contact this person outside the company and report it. Now I hope that is never ever used obviously, but it's there. And what if we had that in place? If it wasn't going through any certification? No, we wouldn't have. But they gave us a guideline of what to do there. So there's. That's just an example and going back to it, it's an action, it's not a theory based thing, it's an action and our business performance better because we're a B corp and that's why we did it.

Nice. So performance wise.

Better performing across more metrics though than just the financial. I guess that's kind of the. I know, Steve, you're very much like, hey, look, we're a for profit business first. But while we're doing that, we're trying to make as much good as we can. But I think that really is the whole concept behind the B Corporation. I guess concept and framework is, you know, better business for better outcomes to all stakeholders rather than just the, the, the old world, I guess model of for the shareholders, which is primarily what business has been based on historically. So I'm going to pick on Brian and Austin next because you both essentially are organizations that have an element of certification and audit in terms of the businesses that you do and your organizations that are certifying other businesses and you are both B corporations. So yeah, how does B Corporation fit into the, I guess like the sustainable frameworks that you offer for your clients? Maybe ladies first, Austin.

Yeah, I think that was one of the things that really drove us to B Corp. Was that it aligned with our own principles of, you know, you can't manage what you're not measuring, so measure it, get it independently verified and you know exactly what you have to work with. And it gives you that really solid baseline. And I think echoing what everyone else says, it's the questions that it makes you ask yourself. We were just going through a self assessment yesterday with my CE and some admins, the beekeepers, and just sort of sitting there and having a chat about, oh gosh, actually this thing that we're doing is still really informal. How do we formalize that, how do we make sure that it's really locked in so that should something change that we can't stop the good work that we're already doing, you know, having an environmental business impact model to begin with as an environmental certification company, you know, we can take a lot of things ourselves quite easily, but there's still a lot of work to be done. And I think we're quite proud of what a strong sort of score we have on our. The care we give to workers because you know, if you don't have take care of your staff, you're not going to have a business. And so it's, it's nice to have that recognition and that framework to evaluate the work you're doing and then, yeah, the. I love that when you go through the assessment, it gives you so many great ideas and then you can tap into the network and get more ideas about what can you practically actually do to boost your performance, to boost, you know, to push yourself to constantly be doing better.

Nice. And how about you Brian, maybe give an explanation of what COGO is all about as well?

Sure, sure. No, thank you. Yeah, Coco is really on a mission to, to change the world. And I guess within B Corp space, that comes up relatively regularly more than in common business. But the idea is really to link, you know, people out there in the public who are looking to engage and, you know, purchase things, to buy things based on their values with businesses who are.

Who are delivering in those spaces. So it's not so much that we're certifying, we're trying to simplify to the market, to people who are looking to.

Buy and to support the right kind of businesses where they can go with a bit of confidence. So it's very much a platform to highlight certifications and the things that businesses are doing already. So the reason for us to get on board with B Corp was really to walk the talk and make sure that we've, we're doing all the things that we, we should be when we're talking about how to, you know, link the public with businesses and get that virtual cycle going, you know, are we actually aligned with those businesses and those good practices? And it's really a, that's probably the most, you know, credible framework out there that's, that's covering, you know, all the broad topics of sustainability. So, you know, for your business, it's not that you need to go in and tick all the boxes, but you have the ability to get credit for the good things that you're doing and in particular the stuff around the impact business model, scoring and recognition. So for purpose led businesses, that's really exciting area where we can have a really good think about we're trying to deliver this impact with our business model. And are we actually, how are we measuring that, how are we delivering on that and are we making the right kind of progress.

While you're on mute, Tim. Sorry.

Which is good for me. I'm cool with you being on mute.

First time running this show, kids, we're working on everything. Yeah. I think what's really interesting for me and the thing that I really liked when I first met Steve, you know, literally I was working for a company and I was thinking, right, we need to be better at measuring, you know, stuff. There was some cultural challenges internally in terms of corporate culture. So I literally googled, you know, HR fix plus environmental stuff. And B Corporation came up as this model of how to, you know, measure business across different, varying, different metrics. And I think it's really interesting as well that, you know, two organizations who are Primarily focused on carbon. So in cocoa and toy to.

You, you know, you're kind of being asked to ponder and measure other topics. So your social impact, your, you know, what are you doing for your customers and for me. That's why I think B Corporation currently is the holy grail of certification protocols. Because it's relatively easy to say, well yeah, we've got our carbon emissions under control and maybe we're even, you know, carbon, carbon positive, if that's the right word or you know, we've really got our emissions under control but we could have child labor in our supply chain. But we're not talking about that because we want to focus on the good we're doing over here on our environmental. Yeah, Lee, let's bring Lee in. So again, another I guess like environmentally focused organization, method recycling. I frequently see your beautifully designed bins around various locations that I'm around. So yes. What does B Corporation certification mean to you guys?

Yeah, so for method, obviously we're a product based company with a really heavy focus on circularity and design. So. So as a both purpose and founder based business, we started with a set of principles that have really driven method to where they are. And obviously I've only joined in the past couple of years but we already had some really good practices in place but we weren't measuring them, they weren't formalized. So B Corp for us was a big part of formalizing what we did as well as identifying things we maybe weren't seeing because they weren't directly in front of us. One of the biggest parts that came out about for us was that we are gold standard in our office. Obviously sustainability is what we do but we weren't thinking so much about our remote teams and how that translates to the people in Australia and the uk. So that was a big part of it for us. And one of the biggest things that come out for us is being in such a great community of people willing to help or share their expertise. The reason we finally got certified is actually going to see a talk from sharesies and they said stop questioning yourself. If you've got 80 points, hit submit. And a little bit of help from Tim as well. So for us certifying was great. It helped us formalize a lot of things we were already doing. But for us it's about the community of being around like minded businesses and wanting to see ourselves alongside the Kogos and the little yellow birds and shares these who we admire so much and that community that's built around it.

Fantastic. That's really really cool.

So where, what do you think is stopping more businesses from getting onto B core certification? Like open. Open to the panel. Like what stopped you from doing it earlier maybe who wants to take that one on?

I think one of the things just to point about where the world's dirtiest B corp. One of the things that really appealed to us and people possibly don't know enough yet is that you don't have to be some wonderful environmentally friendly, carbon positive business to get into it. You can be a normal sort of business and work your way through. And the great thing is with the bia, the business impact assessment is it helps you so much. We started I think at 56 points was our first time when we went through it and it was like we're toast. But with the help of the B lab at the time in the States we worked our way up to 80 points and we've sort of gone a bit further and cath from our team who, you know Tim has worked really hard over the last couple of recertifications to sort of edge those points up. Although I have to say they make it harder every time which seems to be rather tough on the people. But I understand what they're doing. They're lifting us all up. So I think that's one of the things that people should understand is you don't have to be some special business and you see companies like Brewdog who are one of my favorite brewery out of Scotland.

Enjoy a pink ipa. So those sort of sort of mainstream sort of businesses if you like rather than ones that are pretty special and some, and some pretty special ones as well. But there's a great group and I think that's something that people maybe don't understand. They maybe think it's a, it's for, for the privileged few, but it's actually one of the only certifications I think that any business could attempt. Maybe if you're drilling for oil that could be difficult or something like that. But apart from that, you know there's, there's almost anything you could do and that's why people like Danone I guess have managed to work their way into it and other huge businesses in New Zealand as well.

Yeah Brian?

Yeah, extra to Steve's point I think it's, it's great that the framework is able is catering for small through to large businesses. So it's not like a framework that's come out of corporate space and then you know, like it's totally just doesn't make sense and is totally overly bureaucratic and Challenging and just illogical for small businesses. So it has that scale element to it, which is a big plus.

No, I totally agree, Tim.

I think initially it looked like just some smaller.

I'm going to call them boutique businesses. That's not the right word. But smaller businesses, you know, getting involved. I think we've broken through that now that, that with Kathmandu and Sinlay accrediting in New Zealand. I think that's a really good sign to New Zealand. It's still, you know, it's like trying to get anything up and going. Even if it's good news, it's hard to sell. You know, if B Corp were drugged dealers that we get a whole lot more publicity. Right. So good news is a really hard thing to sell. Maybe we could get into that. But the good thing, this isn't live and it's not going to be. Nobody's going to listen to it. But I think, you know, good, I think good news is a really hard thing to sell. And so most people still don't know about B Corp. It's still a relatively new thing that is under the radar. And I think going to Steve's point, this is not for special companies. This is for any company to take on and look at because there is no doubt going through the certification, you will become a better business, you will make more money, your staff will be happier. There's a whole lot of benefits come out of this. So I don't see B Corp as a feel good thing. I see it as, you know, I'm a practical person, I like practical things. B Corp is a practical measure that is going to lift the performance of your business. That's why we do it. And so I think more companies can look at this regardless of what, regardless of the industry, you know, and go, go through the set, go through. It's all open. You can go through, measure your business, see where you're at and go, okay, what do we need to lift? And you know, on 56 points starting off, you'd go, wow, we'll never get there. But you have. And so I would encourage any business to look at the framework. The other thing is there is too much wastage in the system of people lining up at the start line and not getting through. And there's too much wastage. So we've got to find a way of helping companies. And I know you're great at this time that when companies line up to the start gate and go, yeah, we want to certify to make sure you've got enough support, support around you to get through because it is hard. It's good that it's hard and I hope it's never easy.

You know, I'm really proud we're a B corp because it's bloody hard to get and that's good. So make sure you've got enough support around you that when you line up, that you've got the momentum, enough people behind you to get you through.

Definitely. And I. And totally echo all those points. I think, yeah, the kind of. It's applicable for anyone. Size doesn't kind of matter. I think you're all, you're all right. You know, when I look back, you know, Steve, obviously B Corp number one and then the first kind of 10 pretty much were all small businesses who were already doing good. So they had, it was more a validation of the good that we're doing rather than a, hey, we need to look at this assessment to understand how we could do more good. Whereas, yeah, when you've got your Sin Lays and your Kathmandu, so you know, the two biggest by size, sort of by volume B corporations in the Australia, New Zealand region, in New Zealand, thumbs up to us, that changes the narrative. And I'm really hopeful because obviously, you know, we only have an NZX50. We don't need to get many CEOs in a room to have a conversation. Hopefully some of them might watch this or one of their team might listen in. And, you know, I think it's a relatively. I'm doing some numbers, doing the, the stats the other day. I, I know it's the kind of. The classic Kiwi. Yes. But we win. We won the most gold medals per capita. But I think it is a worthy stat to look at. And when you look at the per capita stats, I think the USA was about 0.8 B corporations per populate per, you know, total population. Aussie was four and we're eight. So, you know, we're smashing it. And I think I'm hopeful because the Kiwi DNA is kind of, you know, stand up for big, challenging topics that we're passionate about. You know, first to give women the vote globally, anti apartheid, anti nuclear. You know, we've got, it's in the DNA to stand up and do what's right at scale. So, yeah, I think it is, it's, it's, it's partly a marketing challenge, but it's, it's a new, it's a relatively new framework. And as we get more and bigger organizations, there's a really, really big, big corporation that they have certified, but they can't they haven't publicly announced yet. It's killing me because they are going to be such an amazing edition on the top end of town.

Tim, you always do this. You just like a kid before Christmas. I mean just, ah, it's classic. I just, I, I just want to say one other thing. That B Corps aren't perfect. Just because you're a big does not make you a perfect business. Right. And it's interesting, I had, somebody.

Was, had a swipe at me recently because of Kathmandu has been in the news around not paying their way subsidy back to the government and being criticized for that and said, you know, I thought B Corp would be better as a business and so forth. I said, look, I, I have no judgment around whether Kathmandu should pay it back or not.

But I do. But I said the key point here is that just because you're a B Corp does not make you perfect. And, and it's something I think we need to be very careful of that we don't. And I don't see it actually Tim, within the community, but looking from outside that people go, we're a B Corp and so we are, you know, we are perfect because that's absolute. It's not true. You're still a fallible company. You still make mistakes and trip up and just because you've got that stamp does not make you perfect. However, for us it makes us a lot more conscious making sure that we've got our act together.

Yep, very cool.

It's about progress, right? Not perfection. That's the, the mantra that you hear. And it's so wonderful that you know the entry level for B Corp, it is hard to get those 80 points but it's not impossible. And it's, it, it does let you enter the game at a fairly low level and you have so much room to improve from there, which is, it's such a nice thing that, you know, they reward you for just doing something and the more you do, the more they reward you.

Yeah, totally. And I mean to get 80 is no mean feat. I think the median score on first attempt is still somewhere around the 50 mark. So, you know, business as usual. Kind of never really given this big corporation thing a thought. Hear about it, let's give it a go. They might get to 50 on average.

So yeah, getting to 80 is no mean feat. And I think for me it's what I kind of refer to as the purpose horizon. As you start doing if you're at 50, having taken the assessment you've, you've had your eyes Open to a whole lot of other things that you hadn't had to think about before. That's cool. You're not, you know, you're now aware of that. And when you've got to 80, you're then aware of, okay, well, for us to maybe get to 90 or 100 if we really, really want to go all in and really push the boat out, you know, we now have a framework of understanding of where we need to be doing better. And so, yeah, it's interesting that we've got three. I was talking to Harv earlier on and the three highest scoring B corporations in New Zealand, I'm pretty sure are a teak little yellow bird and the Cheer Sisters. So consumer brands with female leaders. So, Tash, what's all that about?

What can I say? We got 96.7 on our first. Which is first assessment.

First go is a really good score.

Okay, I'm out of here. I'm going home now.

I am too, I'm afraid. Sorry.

Tim. I'm sorry. I knew we were on the wrong call. We're in the wrong place.

Obviously there's room for us to improve. I was really impressed when, because I'm friends with the Cheer sisters, Chloe and Flossy, they're awesome. And when I heard this goal, which I think was like 117, I was like, wow, that's incredible. And I could genuinely appreciate the success because I was thinking, wow, how would we have gotten those extra 20 points? You know, so it is impressive and it. And it's cool as well because it makes you aspire to do better next time. I think it's great that they have that point system. Everyone likes to win, you know, everyone likes a little bit of that motivation of doing better and getting more points. So even though there aren't any prizes and as of yet we don't have T shirts, but I think you should keep getting that idea through Tim. That one's got 15.

So if we. If we can have a T shirt sponsor, Anna and. And Steve is desperate for Brewdog to send him just one can of beer and he'll stop going on about it.

Yeah, it would seem a waste to post one environmentally friendly.

Yeah, yeah. The. Just a quick point. And Ian, one point is I live in California, so everything's legal I over here. So if there's anything you need, just let me know. I'll put it in the post for you. But one of the things, and it's probably interesting for some who have international ambitions, the B Corp was a great. We Got here five years ago and it was a great entry into a market because all of a sudden you had a few friends that you could go to first. It didn't mean they were going to buy off you automatically, but you had people you could talk to and find out about a market. So if people have any sort of international ambitions, it's, it's, it's, it's worth it just for that, let alone the other good things that we already talked about.

Yeah, we've, we're in the UK as well with, with our app and, and stuff over there. Have really noticed a big uptick in terms of B corp awareness and, and number of businesses.

I think they just hit 500B corporations in the UK this week, which is the UK just kind of came out of nowhere.

They were pretty late to the party in terms of having a B lab established and I remember they got to 100 within. It felt like about six months and now they're at 500. It's like, wow, imagine 500B corporations in New Zealand. I'm getting. I was like, I'll calm down, Tim. But like.

Community.

Hey, that's, that's my, my goal has always been in the back of my mind, the most number of B cores per capita of any country. And that's my, that's my. Kind of where I made me for.

But Tim, I think we've hit the tipping point. You know, it sat at about 15 or 16 for a long, long time and I think there is momentum now that there is. I think we've hit that tipping point and I think it is really important having those two big companies in there. I think that gives it real credibility to a wider, to a wider range of companies. And I know I've had a meeting with the sustainability manager of Fonterra who have been through the, the assessment process and.

You know, and whether they'll have a go at it or not, but they were very aware of where their mark is and their mark was a lot higher than I was expecting because they got a huge number of points because they're a co op. And so it's interesting to see that it is, it is starting to move. And I think, you know, the more bigger companies come on board, I think that it's huge to the movement.

Totally. And I think this is a conversation because, I guess for transparency. Well, not that it really matters, but I did some work for COGO a few years ago and we'd regularly have conversations as a team. You know, what if someone like McDonald's wanted to come and join the platform on Cogo. So Coco is all about, I guess, for the, for the businesses, helping them understand marketing data, insights about where potential customers are who care about systemic problems that your business could try and work to solve. So it's really, really cool tool from a business. If you're not on Cogo as a New Zealand or UK business, you should totally reach out to Josh, I'm guessing is probably the best guy. Will, will tag Josh in the link somewhere. Not Brian. Brian's like, no, don't email me. It's a really, really cool tool. And that was one of the always the big questions as a team and half the team would say no. Like if McDonald's rang us tomorrow and said they wanted to come on board and they wanted to work out how they could move to being 100% ethical, you know, kind of like free range eggs and you know, cruelty free, you know, meat products, half the team would kind of be like, no, they don't, they, they don't have a mandate to exist as far as we're concerned. You know, whereas the other half of the company are kind of like, well, we should totally get them on board because if we convert McDonald's by 1% in terms of the more good they do, that's significantly more impact than, you know, someone starting a small business selling vegetarian burgers to try and compete against McDonald's which is going to take them maybe 50 years to scale and be of that size. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily, I think we need both to happen. But I think, yeah, the big end of town is where a lot of change is going to drive. And I know, Steve, that's something, you know, you've always talked about. It's better to have these sort of bigger corporations who maybe aren't doing as good as they could in terms of social environment. It's better to have them on side and bring them on the journey rather than kind of throw rocks at them.

Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the couple of interesting stories.

One of the very first retreats we went to, which I can't remember where that was, but may have been Oregon, but someone stood up and said B Corp should mandate living wage as part of the impact assessment. And there's a lot of division and the founders came out and I'm paraphrasing, so hope no one sues me, but they basically said that excludes people and we're all about inclusion. And it's like rather than excluding people for not doing that, which for some companies would be impossible to do overnight, especially in the States, if you've got 50,000 workers, for example. But that could be an excuse as well. So how do we include people like that and. And help them get to those goals as opposed to just exclude them and have them as not part of it? And the other one was one of the founders whose name's just escaping me in Australia. Someone asked, could a coal company be a B corp?

You know, because Australia is full of coal and all those other things. And he said, on the face of it, you would think not. But if their goal was to change the world of energy into something else, you know, using that as a base, but because they know energy, so how do we move to other energies, then that's possible. And again, it's. The founders have this really inclusive.

Frame of mind, which I think is great. And it's gone right through. You know, a lot of us and various groups say they're awful. They should. They should be out because they do. They sell gloves, for example, disposable gloves. Well, it's like that's all there is at the moment. But how do we make it better until we think of something that's better for the environment or the world than a disposable glove? And we're working on that. But in the meantime, you can make a difference.

Definitely.

And from a food production perspective, we do need gloves. Hygiene is really important.

I'm not sure I've seen you on the customer list, Tish. Just saying.

Tim told me about you in our last call.

Yeah, well, this could get ugly, Tim.

Yeah, yeah.

Would you like us all to leave the live panel so that you two can cover the question?

So we've got our first question from the floor. Hopefully this will work. There we go. Look at that. How cool is this? So from Ria here, I'm going to throw this one straight to Austin because I think this is like. This has to be in your wheelhouse. How does B Corp Certification align with ISO standard ISO 26000? It seems to be similar. Correct, Rhea?

If she's wrong.

I think it is similar. I don't know the 26,000 series as well as I know the 14,000 series, but it definitely does tick a lot of the same boxes. And I think that this is true of a lot of certifications where if you have an ISO certification for your carbon footprint or your environmental management or your quality management, those. The work that you're doing as part of that would help you answer and prove your answers in The B Corp assessment. So if you, if you are aligned with that full series of sustainability standards, you're probably going to be able to whiz through that B Corp assessment fairly straightforwardly. And it might help you give a few more practical ideas though. I think the thing with ISO standards is A, because they're group consensus standards, they can be a little bit more of the sort of lowest common agreed point. So there's definitely room to grow. And the other thing with ISO standards is that it's essentially just sort of giving you that really base level of these are the things that you should take off to kind of say that you have this. And the nice thing about the B Corp framework in comparison is that it goes so much further. And I mean, I think I would assume that if, if you actually manage to get a full number of points, B Lab would immediately start thinking, great, how can we push this further? What do we, what do we need to do differently? Because that's not, that's not good enough. There's no such thing as perfection. So, yeah, I think if you're, if you're doing one of those things, it won't stop you or prevent you from doing the other. The ISO work would feed nicely into your B Corp certification and help you prove it.

Yeah, and just extra that I think that, I think from what I'm familiar with, ISO 26000 standard, that it's not a certifiable standard. So it's still, that's still got a lot of use. But if you're looking for that badge of endorsement or that third party kind of, that reassurance, someone's taken a look at it, then, yeah, it's a better place for that.

That was, yeah, that was going to be my commentary, I think. Yeah. You know, you, you're, it's a just a sustainability standard short. I've been involved with two or I've been employed by two organizations as they went through ISO certification, if that's the right word, or the audit. And I know it's an intense amount of work, but if you're looking at just the one, the one pillar of sustainability, that's great, it's a start. But like I say, the B Corporation because it looks at the five pillars. So you've got your governance, you've got your workers, you've got your social impact, your environmental impact and then your customer or business model, you're just kind of being forced to look at a whole lot of other areas. And like I said, I think that the big risk And I think this is probably my challenge to the big end of town is okay, the climate thing is the big thing that a lot of organizations are kind of going for, which is it's a thing that we need to go for but you know, you can't. It seems like there's enough systemic challenges facing all of us that picking one of them alone when you're at the big end of town isn't going to be enough to really help us solve the problem. So. And I think exactly what Brian said. It's, it's a, I mean it'd be interesting to get some feedback from, from the room in a second, but I think it would be a stretch to say right now that having a B core logo on your brand in the supermarket is massively beneficial because it is not as well recognized currently. But I think that third party verification to have a stamp that is increasingly recognized globally by all stakeholders as having validity is a big thing.

Yeah, I can speak to that and say that I think maybe one out of every 10 customers if that might have any idea what a B Corp logo mean? I had a meeting just yesterday with a auditor from price Waterhouse Coopers PwC and they're looking at setting up sustainability auditors audits as part of the services that they offer to their very large customers. And I mentioned B Corporation certification to her and she was like, oh, what is that?

I don't think the recognition is really there yet.

Which is interesting because One of the 60 tabs I have open on my Chrome browser is a report from PwC UK B corp corporations in 2020. How has COVID 19 impacted the B Core landscape? Yeah, interest. Interesting that some of these big organizations that globally are saying yeah, we're all on it. It hasn't quite filtered down if they need someone to come and facilitate some sessions for them. More than happy. Hint hint. Cool. We've got another question from the crowd. So this is from Yatin. Do you have any suggestions, recommendations for businesses before they start to go through the certificate certification process to get the team prepared for the intense process? Yeah Lee, maybe I'll let you have a, have a bite of that one first.

Yeah, sure. So when we actually started the B Corp process, it was actually me and another junior staff member at the time. We decided we were gonna take a stab at and see how far we got. And I don't think there was a way to prepare for it except to not overthink it too much.

And really focus on the areas that matter to your business. For example, there's five areas, but every business has a different area that they are going to excel in or do worse in. So I think in terms of having a team that's ready to go through the process, it's about assigning roles. Potentially it's one person manages each section or you set aside a certain amount of time each week. It's really about taking it as a project and having a timeline and being prepared for, I guess, a bit of a wait. I'm not quite sure what it's like at the moment, but when we certified, after actually applying to get certified, there was about a three month wait before we had to do any more work. So I think the big part about it is going into it with the intention of finishing it and making sure there are people responsible for achieving it. Once we stopped overthinking the little details and you know, where do we get our pens from? Things started to move a lot quicker and a lot easier for our business.

Definitely, yeah. Anyone else? Steve? Ian, you've just been through recertification. Did you do things differently from the first time round when you did your initial certification?

Yeah, we worked in teams and we would do it in little bites. So three of us were involved in it and we found actually working on Zoom worked really well because you could bring up the questions and so forth and work through it together. Even if we were in the office together. We found that it was really good to bring it up, but I think it's, don't give it to one person to do because they'll just drown. You know, it needs to be a team effort and look after each other as you go through. And there are troughs and lows and some days are going good and some aren't. So we just broke it down into our slots and said, right, we'll, we'll focus for an hour on this and then, you know, we got another piece of time. So yeah, we just became more systematic this time and we were better prepared. We knew what we were getting in for and it was still hard, but it was.

More systematic.

Nice.

One other thing is go and find a B corp that has a similar business to you and reach out and ask if they're open to questions because I don't know many B Corps that wouldn't be more than happy to sit down and have a conversation about it and help you get there. Or Tim, if you're in New Zealand, it's an easy way to go.

Thank you.

I'd like to claim a lot of responsibility for the recertification. Tim. But as you know, it was Cass and she's, she's a veteran now, she's done two, I think, and then Francis before her. And so we've got a lot of experience. But, but I mean it was, it was really tough this time because things have moved on in the certification and we had a lot of meetings with the Australian B lab crew and even the US and, and that's the thing, I think it's, it's telling people that there's a lot of support within the B lab.

Hierarchy, if that's the right word, and even their tools, they give you help a lot as well. So it's just, it seems daunting, but it's just one step, you know, small steps as it is, and then you can get through it. But as I say, we've got a bit of experience under our belt now, which doesn't necessarily make it easier, but it certainly makes it more structured, I guess, to Ian's point.

Yep. And how about you, Austin, because you're, you're probably the biggest B corporation on the call. How does, how does size alter? Because obviously for some like me, it's, you know, I'd have to sit down, do the assessment. It's kind of me and my business. But when you've got teams and departments, what's the challenge there?

I think you definitely need a cross functional team. If you have, if you have enough staff to have teams or have really discreet departments that having people feed into the process, even if they're not leading it, but they're sort of part of the team, it makes it a lot easier, quicker and easier to get answers. And you get a lot of that, you know, sort of cross pollination. You get some great ideas from different teams in different parts of the country, different offices. And we've always been really fortunate in that our, our chief executive has always been really passionate and part of the, the B corp work that we're doing. And having that top down direction means that you have, you have a direct voice to your board or your, you know, whoever your sort of executive leaders are, you have that, you know, direct voice to ensure that you have the resource needed. We have an impact team which we set up after our first one that looks across all of our ranges of impact. But it means, you know, we meet fortnightly and we can just chat about different things. So if, if I'm walking through the assessment and I have, you know, a question or an idea, I have a form right there, we can chat about it and we can go off and ask questions. And we have that direct voice to leadership which I think is, is vital if you want to keep things moving. Resource and access to leadership, definitely.

I think that's, it's. I guess it's increasingly common that I'm approached by kind of like a concerned citizen within a large organization who has come across B corporation at some level. And hey, I really want to, you know, this is, I think this is amazing. This is what we need as an organization. But if you don't have that, that C level or at least senior leadership team buy in, it's, it's, it's just impossible. Yeah, but it's definitely the advice I give to organizations is create what you know, the bee team or a team of beekeepers. I know Steve or Kath's role in Eagle is the beekeeper. And it's a kind of a, well, I guess documented name that people or moniker that people are given in B corporations. So having, having one person who's kind of leading the assessment who is sort of the font of all truth and maybe is the person who enters the information for consistency. But it's a really.

It'S a really useful tool if you bring the team on the journey. It's, it's a massive employee engagement tool as well because you're getting people to identify which of the five pillars actually do they find some meaning in at work. And I guess it's a signal to your, to the team, the broader team, the organization, hey, we want to go on a journey to do more good in the world. And no one really gets upset or distressed at the idea of doing more good in their life. So that's the big advice I give to people, is use this as a tool not just to measure the good you're doing, but to bring the team and potentially also your supply chain and your customers on that journey. And I think the B corporation, oddly enough the one that I think nailed it, the best to date is Sinlay, who are, you know, big dirty dairy. But because it took them two years to get 80 points, they had to bring the whole team on the journey to bring them all behind it. And it's like, you know, you guys need to go and find two points for us in your team, you know, work on it. Come tell us, how do we get these two points?

So yeah.

Tim, we had a delightful situation when we were going through with our first assessment. And in our office we've got Karen who runs our office and we're going through the assessment and she cotton on to this whole process and got really enthusiastic by it. She climbed up onto, had a look in the ceiling one day in our offices to find that our offices weren't insulated. We'd never looked right, we're just renting the space, I'm not insulated. She gets on the phone, she rings our, our landlord and says officers are insulated. He goes yeah, no, no, that, he says well you need to insulate them. And, and he goes well no, it's not in the contract. And he said no, no, we're about to certify as a B corp and if we're going to stay here you've got to insulate the, the, the officers. And he's like what? And she goes we can't, we can't possibly stay in uninsulated offices. We'll pay half of that.

Anyway. Next thing the officers were insulated. But it was lovely to see that call to action being more conscious and go, what am I going to do about it? And I think that's a really important spin off that can have in the team that everybody's got to be involved in it and not just a group.

And yeah, that's been, it's, it's, yeah, it's about changing actions.

Fantastic. And I think that again that's something I really like about it is because tells you, you know, you asked the question are you doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 1? However it's like oh, we're doing this. But never knew that that was a thing. Okay, now I know that's a thing. And I think particularly for the small to medium business which is owner, kind of owner, operator or CEO, someone like Steve who's, you know, hands on in the business. It's easy for Steve as well, more so than a Sinlay or a publicly listed company to go, yeah, sure, we'll have that as a policy now or yeah, now that I know that's a thing, let's just make that happen. Or as Star Trek would say, make it. So if you're wondering what's on Steve's shoulder, it's Spock. Who's who? I'm not sure. Do you love Spock more than brewdog beer or is it. If they, if they had a Spock based beer you'd be so that's not.

A logical, that's not a logical comment at all, Tim. It says, is it? Now he's my voice of reason so that's why he's sitting there helping me. But I guess if I can. I was just thinking I was going to put a Question in. But I'm not sure how to do it. So I'll just, I'll just say it. But one of the, one of the things we get over here is.

Is the green washing or enviro washing or the, the washing. And there's a lot of companies in the States that, as you probably know in New Zealand as well that make all sorts of outrageous claims that are absolutely false or, or at least very thin. And I think the B Corp gives you some security over that and that people who know B Corp or the B Lab assessment know that it's really, it's, it's tough, you can't sort of get away with that. But I just wonder if what I'll be interested to know what the other guys think in terms of is that being portrayed enough by B Lab or by B Corps at how rigorous this is. Because, you know, we could go out, get a $0.01 for the planet sticker to put on eight boxes in a, you know, zero waste sort of, you know, all these different things you can just go out and get. But the B that you have to actually earn the B Corp certification and that's to me really important. But I'm not sure people understand that as well as they could. And whether that's our job or B Labs or everybody's, I'm not really sure how that works.

Don't all, don't all go at once. Lee's in.

I think that's one of the big things about B Corp and knowing what B Corp is all about is these big businesses we've talked about wanting to get on board. The McDonald's is, the Pepsi's. I've gone very American. But they could make a lot of substantial changes just by swapping some of their providers to B Corps. A substantial amount of B Corps actually report on the impact and such as Etique or Little Yellow Bird. Just making those swaps can actually increase both their points and their impact on the world as well as giving them validation that even if they've not got the B Corp certification, they can say we are working with good people who are doing the innovation so that we can keep doing what we do and make a profit. And I think that's a big part of it. I don't think there was any way we could have got through the BCoRT certification without being honest and open about our practices. And yeah, I think it's a really good tool for trying to hide from greenwashing and outrageous claims because once you're responsible to a group of people that Care so deeply it's nearly impossible to get away with it. Nor would you want to.

Great answer. How about you, Brian? You're obviously, you know, you, Cogo is kind of all about creating change in the business world. What does, how do you. Yeah. See all that?

Yeah, it's, it's a bit of a balance really, because, you know, if B Corp is going out and projecting that, that it's.

Very robust and very complicated and a big framework and everything, then we're kind of maybe putting off some of the businesses coming in. And I don't mean to keep it a secret, you know, as such, but, but yeah, there's a role for kind of getting the certification, getting the logo out there and recognition up. But then, I mean that's, that's to an extent back on the businesses that have gone through the process and, and you know, having the confidence that they've gone through that and that it means something and that they then can communicate that really confidently. And I think it's, it is growing and those big businesses have had a bit of a part to play in that as well. But there's, there's a lot more to do, I think, in terms of, you know, blowing our own trumpets a bit and getting the message out there as much as possible.

Definitely. I think, I think, because there's two things that I, I see there, I think being an imported Kiwi looking into New Zealand with the objectivity of a foreigners kind of lens, and Kiwis are quite humble people. And then businesses that are generally doing good for some reason are, you know. Well, your guess is typically more humble. So there's kind of double layer of humbleness around. Well, we're just doing the right thing. Didn't think we have to shout about it. But I do think, you know, what was we also said earlier on, you know, people need good news stories. I think people want to see business that is actually doing some good. So maybe there is a role for the media to be, you know, rather than just sort of the two minutes at the end of the news. Oh, here's our good sort, you know, who's picked up some litter on their street. But that's tough because, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. That's what that, that sector is all about, I guess. Yeah, I guess we're also getting to, like we said a couple of times, we're getting to that critical mass as a movement now in New Zealand and there's a couple of B corporations who I have seen with adverts on tv, but I haven't seen their B core logo on there, which is, you know, that's interesting. Why not? It's, it's, it theoretically is a unique advantage. The B, the big B corporation that has just certified, that I can't name, is in a industry that needs to increasingly show trust and accountability. So I, I really do hope that they will be leading on the front foot with their, with their logo on everything and educating people. But maybe now we're getting to a critical mass. It's something that we should be looking at as a community is, you know, I don't know how much does it cost to put an ad on TV? Let's all put in 50 bucks and I don't know, get on Choice TV at 3am in the morning and have one ad play for 30 seconds. But it's a start.

There's a role to play there, Tim, with, with the impact, you know, that we're measuring through the B Corp certification verification process. It's, it's really, I think, powerful. And that's something that cogo we try to, to communicate and try to get businesses thinking more about when they're coming onto the platform is that, you know, you can manage, you can be managing things, but what's the, what's the output? What's the kind of, the impact that's, that's being delivered? And that, that I think resonates pretty powerfully if it's communicated in the right way.

Yep. I mean it's, it's because it's an interesting, I guess, set up the community so we have all these beautiful humans on this panel are their businesses are certified B corporations. And we have B Lab, which is a global network of not, not for profit, I guess, centers whose job are, whose job is to partly run the certification program. So they have the auditors and the verification standards committees and what have you, but they're also responsible for building the movement so interacting, creating events and so on and so forth. But I guess this is the big challenge in sort of how do we grow the movement is, you know, B Lab is a small, not for profit. That is not, you know, awash with thousands or even hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Most of the B corporations on this call, you know, we're all relatively, relatively small in terms of a global scale. You know, how do we perhaps work better with B labs or other groups to get the word out there to more people? Harv, what do you reckon?

One of the things that we are using more and more is that when we use, we Use a lot of conference centers and rooms and so forth. And we will ask them and challenge them on some of their policies and so forth. And at times you can see them why you're asking these questions. Right. And so we're trying to raise the profile. So we're a B corp and this is really important to us. So even with our bank, you know, we challenge them because we bank with one of the bigger banks and, you know, we don't get any points because we bank with them, but we challenge them all the time on stuff. So I think it's important for us to push back to other people that we do business with and ask them to lift the game. And just on the B Lab thing, Tim, I think it's really important that.

We have recently pushed something back to B Lab and said, look, we are working on how we lift our cultural intelligence within collective intelligence. And we're looking at putting a framework together to start integrating more indigenous practices, using more Mauro culture, more Moro values within our framework. And that fits in beautifully with BCorp. But I think that New Zealand has got a role here that we could lead other countries because I think of our relationship with Mori is more.

Dynamic than a lot of other countries and their indigenous people. And I am really passionate about how we introduce that more and more into business practices. And so I'll push that back to B Lab and say we're working on this and we'll be coming back to you with some ideas of how this can be integrated into the assessment, because I think it's a really important signal going forward and a really important practice. And so far they've said, yep, cool. Keen to see what you're working on. So I also think, you know, it's important for us to also make sure that we are having a say in the way that the assessment is developed going forward. And don't just sit there passively being catered to by. From wherever America or that we have influence back and start asking for things that are important to us.

Nice. I think it's. It's definitely getting better since, I mean, you know, I think year. Year one, when it was. Yeah, it's pretty hard to even get a hold of anyone at B Lab. You know, Steve had to go to San Francisco.

I guess, to your point, it's, you know, there's 50 B Corps, and I don't know what that adds up to in. In revenue for B Lab. It's probably not a lot. And so they haven't got a lot to play with. But I think we need to as a group maybe work with some, you know, it would be great to get some very retail type people, even if they're not B Corps, but maybe would assist in promoting it. I know the various supermarkets over here have had B Corp Corp events and you know, the retailers have got on board with that. So that. Right. And you know, they get the front of the row or something. So I don't know how, how that happens, but that's one, you know, get it in front of the people so that they can actually see it.

I think that's the big missing link at the minute is getting that recognition so that consumers know that they have an option. You know, if there's two brands that I can support or there's two businesses that I can work with, this one is a better business, which is, I guess the better business is B Corp. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that?

One thing that we're doing, it's just a small action I guess is we've set up for COGO in Wellington, where headquarters is based, a tech for good recurring event. So every month for two months and we're trying to bring together different businesses, you know, different speakers and mostly tech industry. But it doesn't have to be just, just to, and then invite the tech industry participants in, to kind of build that awareness around what, what's possible and what cool kind of activities and actions and things can be driven in this space. Because you know, in our experience there's, there's a few that are quite engaged in the space but there's a lot that kind of see it as, you know, it's a technical, technical focus, side to the business and, and the impact of that is a little bit disconnected. So that's something that we're, we're trying to nudge along and that's probably coming out of our, you know, background as B Corp needing to, or wanting to grow the movement.

Nice. I think that's kind of always been one of the challenges with a small community, a small community of small businesses where people are just busy trying to run their business and do as much good as they can. You know, again, Steve and, and Eagle have taken on a large amount of that sort of heavy lifting in Christchurch, running events and sponsoring and getting people out to see their factory and like come and see what a B corporation is actually all about. So I think that's getting better as we're getting this critical mass of more organizations in Auckland, Wellington. Obviously we've got Raglan representing. There's another B Corporation coming in, Raglan, soon. Watch this space. You have your own little. Your own little hub there of awesomeness. And Harv just doing his own thing in. In Palmy. But, you know, we'll get there.

And fielding and fielding. There's a difference.

Does anyone know.

You said you're going to be nice.

Sorry, I'll mute him. Tej, don't worry.

One thing we're doing at the moment to help promote BCOP is a giveaway. So we teamed up with all the other food certified B Corps in New Zealand. So Bix and Pog, Peanut butter and Cheer Sisters and People's Coffee. So we've made a B Corp breakfast giveaway that we're running on our Facebook and our Instagram at the moment. And that's just a nice way to kind of reach people with a bit of a story about what B Corp is and then there's a prize they can win and they tag their friends and share the giveaway. So really simple. But it's a nice storytelling method and people tend to engage with giveaways maybe more than they do with just sort of informational posts.

Nice. That's super cool. Yeah. And I think this is, again, we're just getting to that size now where we've got enough organizations in tech, in food, you know, in sustainability, in different areas where you. We can start doing some of that cool stuff. Yeah, yeah, super cool.

Oh, no, you go, sorry. And it's as much about the retail side of things and educating our individuals on it as it is institutional. So I've had a few conversations about how do we make government aware of what B Corps are doing so that they can put into the procurement policies that if a company is B Corp, they're a preferred vendor or. And how that could help grow the industry, even if they're just asking companies, oh, are you a B Corp? It could actually inspire change. And. Yeah, how do we make big institutional change with the people that have the power of purchase?

Definitely that's. That's a conversation that I know I've had locally here with different authorities. Is, you know, you, you. It's a headache for you to screen, actually. Are people doing good as a business? Well, if they're a certified B Corporation, they have met a global verified standard of transparency and accountability and social environmental impact. So that, you know, that's an easy mechanism for you just to go, yep, you're through the first round of some screening on that basis. But obviously you need to be able to Provide the goods services, operations as per the rfp, whatever. But that's, it's an interesting thing because there's been a couple of really big companies I've had conversations with in the last couple of weeks where it is their, it's their procurement team that have come to me because they are increasingly being asked in tenders through, through other large organizations. You know, question one, you know, what is your social impact that you've had in the last 12 months? And they kind of go, well, we know we've done some good stuff, but we haven't documented it, we have no verification of it. And so, yeah, it's in. I think procurement can play a really, really big role. Yeah. Particularly for some of those bigger companies who might not be ready or it might take them a couple of years like a sinlay to actually go through the process because they have to make some big changes. But yeah, go and find some B corporations in your supply chain, support them.

So B core is better business. We all agreed on that.

Of course.

Of course. It's just on your. Procurement's tough. San Francisco and it might be, might have changed, but San Francisco county or whatever they're called, Council offer 3% head start for B Corps on major RFP intenders. And I've always sort of been on the fence about that. I'm not sure people should be giving a head start start, but it's one way of them doing exactly what you're saying is filling in the first part of the sheet. What's your impact? So I think that's an option for some people. I think big companies, and I can name a few in New Zealand that we've dealt with over the years are scared of that because all they see is price increase. And that's not necessarily the case. You know, we've always said that our products may be slightly more per piece, but they're always cheaper per month. And we've got lots of documentation on that now. So it's an interesting one. And procurement is an interesting. Often it's a person in a room with no windows in a spreadsheet and so he hasn't got a lot of view of the world or she. So it's a difficult place to start. And then you often get the person at the top saying, yes, let's do it. But then it doesn't trickle down to the procurement. So it's a tricky one. I was going to say though, Tim, and one way to get the word across. I've always had this thought that we should hold a Be estival, be apostrophe estivale. And New Zealand's now the only place in the world that you can gather publicly anyway. So maybe we should put together, have some nice food, some important bands from overseas. I've got nothing to do anyway. And some music and brew dog of course and bre beers and wines from New Zealand and really raised the profile and I think you'd be good at organizing that. I've just got a feeling.

Yeah. I've got nothing else to do this week.

I like it with the food and the food and booze. Hopefully Sawmill might turn up as our local preferred beer supplier. We clearly got some great coconut based products we'll be getting. We've got the recycling bins sorted. Team of facilitators. We could run some events.

Yeah.

Austin can make us carbon neutral and Brian can help bring a whole lot of businesses. Let's make it happen. Yeah, why not? So what does the future look like for B Corporation in New Zealand? Who wants to take that one?

I'll jump in. I think it looks really bright, you know, to be honest. And when you look at what's going on in New Zealand at the moment and sure that there's, there's impacts from COVID and that's going to continue for, for quite some time. Even though it could be indirect with supply chain or customers offshore, there's really, you see movement and growing interests like right across society, you know, like in terms of sustainability and people being more aware of these, this importance of these, these things and businesses that are, are doing meaningful work in, in that space. So like, you know, the public, you've seen stuff around climate with, you know, extinction, rebellion, protests. You've got government taking action, you know, in a number of areas. Even so stuff around, you know, product stewardship and circularity, not just climate. And on some social issues too, you're seeing, you know, some local councils or local government getting a bit more engaged, more big businesses taking action. So it feels really broad and that's just going to grow. I think the interest in B Corp because it's a certification third party and everybody's going to increasingly I think recognize the value of that. If there's solutions ready to go, businesses already positioned, then that's say for a procurement perspective that's a quick win or an easy decision. Doing all this assessment on your own, it's really hard, you know, going through that process.

Anyone else? What does the future look like? Do we think we'll get to a point where, I mean Steve might be able to talk this a little bit because in the US Your US business is a pbc, is that. That's correct, isn't it? You're a public benefit corporation. So it's kind of a, almost like a B corporation off the shelf. I mean, is the future in New Zealand that when you go to government or business.govt to to register your business, you know, is social and environmental impact the two other pillars that your business is going to be measured against as well as are you running solvently?

Yeah, I mean the PBC system, which I think in a few countries now around the world or similar is really as a public benefit statement that you'll run the business in accordance with what you say. And it's a wee bit like a sticker. You know, it's a good entry point for, for people to get into a community. But I think the B corp thing is going to be if you're not in it, then you're out of it. And so it's, you know, you'll miss out on things. And it's getting certainly gaining.

Strength here as well, you know, in a big way. But I think the real growth has been in Europe and maybe Australasia. I don't know the numbers. You might, Tim. And so it's going to be one of those things where people will start saying what is this and why is it growing so much and why do people care? And the answer I always give is it's the way business was designed. I mean, you're part of a community, whether it's global or Ashburton. And as a business, you contributed to the community. You sponsored the local baseball to be an American team and all those sort of things and you just contributed and you were just good people. So it's really simple. I realize there's a lot more to it now with everything and the complexity of business, but it's just, just to me, it's just this. It's the simplest thing. It's getting back to what business was always designed to be. Just a really good part of a community.

Love it.

100%. Right? Yeah. I mean, the analogy I often use when I'm talking to people about sort of purpose and, and doing good is, you know, if, if you, if you think back to a thousand years or 2,000 years when you were sitting around a campfire as a tribe, if, if one of your tribe members is coming in and you know, pouring the, the dinner on the campfire and kicking the shelters down, it's not long before that person's asked to leave the tribe. And it just seems increasingly we're recognizing some of the activity that some organizations are doing is, you know what, actually you're not kind of contributing to the tribe so much here. So could you stop doing that?

Well, look, we've, we're an hour 12 in. I think we've covered a lot of, a lot of space here. You're all very busy humans clearly trying to change the world and make the world a better place. Final thoughts. Maybe just one final thought from each of you. Maybe. Who wants to go first? Either just go or I'll pick on someone half. Oh, I'll unmute you.

Keep up the good work. You've had a huge impact on New Zealand and keeping the thing going.

I absolutely agree with what Steve said. It is the future of B Corp. I think commerce is not going to go away.

So regardless what changes, commerce is not going to get away. We just need to get better at conducting commerce.

Nice.

Anyone else?

For anyone out there who's listening and thinking, oh, should we go through this process? We want to sign up, become a B corp. I would just say don't wait to start because the process does take a long time. So don't sort of wait until you think, I've got everything sorted, we're doing everything right and we'll become a B Corp. Now I think just start the earlier the better. And it might take a year, might take two years, but at least you'll be on the journey.

Well, see, Steve will probably know the quote, but the Warren Miller, the ski guy, if you don't do it today, you'll be a day older when you do do it.

It's not to get any easier if you start.

Yeah, what I like is about, you know, the second best time to plant a tree is now. The first best time was 20 years ago. And so it's like you just got to start. But I think the other thing is, and to Ian's point, business has always been, I guess business and wars unfortunately have always been times and maybe pandemics and other three have been times of great change and advancement. And it's business that, you know, you look at some of these guys with their like or loathe them, but the Elon Musk's of this world have made considerable strides just by thinking differently. And obviously Steve Jobs was a thinking differently person. And it's just that's where business has to lead. But they have to do it responsibly. And I think that's the call from the general public which is Slowly gaining in volume in terms of people listening. Companies because of social media, I guess, which the curse that is because of. Sorry, we're on social media, aren't we? Am I still here? And so it's like you can expose companies for their bad and good practices really quickly and so that has helped and I think it just is accelerating. So that's the exciting part for us and I'm hoping that we'll live to see the day where it's just a standard and anything else gets called out quickly.

Nice. Anyone else, final comments before we close up shop?

Yeah, I'd say we've said it's pretty daunting, It's a pretty hard thing to do, we won't lie about that. But there's lots of resources in the community from the vlab and, and you know, just make a start on the impact assessment with some intent and I'm sure that you'll get there.

Pretty much.

Yeah. I think just, just get started. You know, it might take you a few years before you can hit those 80 points, but that doesn't matter because you're doing really good work to get there. Yeah, just, just get started. That's how we're going to have that sort of just transition to the world that we want to live in.

That's.

Yeah. To everyone's comments, I think it's just, you know, it's just about exploring, getting into the assessment. All the information's in there. You can play around, you know, you can read up, you can get in contact with, with Tim or other big corps, you know, like it's, you don't have to. You load everything up at the front and then get daunted by having how you're going to jump in, you know, like you can, you can start off easy and just explore and when you're ready, you jump in.

Boom. Love it.

Steve, one of your employees is, you know, clearly malingering on social media here. You know, if you need to jump off and have a chat with them.

You know, I know essentially it's against the company policy. I'm sure we've got a social media policy, so I'm not sure what she's. She must be on leave.

Hi, Kath.

Big shout out to Kath. Kath is my partner in crime in the Christchurch region. We, we are the co chairs of B Local. We've been a bit rubbish on organizing events, but if you're, if you're in any of the regions, if you want to get connected with any of the B corporations, you see all the people on the call here. As Kath said, you can go to bcorporation.com.

Find me on the Internet. If you can't find me on the Internet, the Internet's broken. But I'll connect you. We'll make stuff happen. I'll put some links to some other resources around B Corporation. But yeah, I think general consensus seems to be that B Corp is better business. And don't wait. Go and give it a go. Have a go at the assessment. It's free to take the assessment. You only pay if you want to get verified and certified. Go do it. You'll create a better business. Thank you all so much for giving us some of your time to help try and grow this movement and yeah, spread some good stories and. And some. Some cool stuff.

Yeah, let's do it again sometimes. All right, guys, I'll. I don't know how this works to. I can remove you or you can remove yourselves. There we go. There we go. I'll kick you all out. See you later.

Hey, so thank you for tuning in. If you've been watching this live or watching on the replay, I hope that was some value for you. This is a new, new thing that I'm wanting to try to help bring a bit more purpose to help those of you who want to go in pursuit of purpose find this purposeful performance. So yeah, if there's other B corporations that you'd like me to interview or yeah, other topics or ideas that, that you want to explore on purpose, let me know. Put them a comment. Or you can drop me a note to Tim@growgood.co if you can't find me. The Internet is broken. So yeah, thank you so much for tuning in. Catch you soon on the next one. Peace out.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening into my podcast. I hope you found it informative and inspirational. I'd love to know where you are on your purpose journey. And if you have any specific questions or people you'd like me to interview to help you on that journey, please do let me know. Also, feel free to connect with me on other social media platforms. You can check out all those links in the show notes below. And if you want to see how I might be able to help you specifically on your purpose journey, you can go and check out my website, www.growgood.co or drop me a line by email timogrogood Co. All those links will also be in the show notes. I would genuinely love to hear from you. But anyway, until next time, go well and keep seeking that purpose fuel performance in your.