#2 Tim is interviewed by Ian Harvey on finding his purpose and B Corp

Foreign.

And welcome to In Pursuit of Purpose with me your host, Tim Jones, the Grow Good guy.

Hey, and welcome to episode two of the In Pursuit of Purpose podcast. Kia ora. Welcome, I'm Tim, your host Tim here, the Grow Good Guy based in in little old Ototahi, Christchurch, Aoteara, New Zealand. And in this second episode, I guess you could say it's a bit of a cheat episode in that this was a podcast that I actually recorded with a good friend of mine, Ian Harvey, on his podcast, which is called Stuff that Matters Now. So Harv runs an organization called Collective Intelligence who are based in a little town pretty much called Palmerston north, which is at the bottom of the north island of New Zealand for those of you not in New Zealand. New Zealand has two islands, the the north island and the south island, very imaginatively named. Harv is what we call down in this part of the world a good bastard. And that means he's a good guy trying to do good things in the world. And I was really stoked that he invited me to be one of the first guests on his podcast. And in this we really unpack a bit of my journey on getting to being more purpose driven, some of the trials and tribulations and we also talk a little bit about the B Corporation movement, which I'm a big advocate of and based here in New Zealand. I'm also of the B Corporation ambassadors. So yeah, get yourself a cup of tea, sit back, relax, put your feet up and check out the great conversation. There was some good banter in this conversation as well as some good depth of content we felt. And so yeah, check it out and please do subscribe. Give me some comments. I'd love to know where you are in your journey to purpose and how I can help you unpack these ideas so that you too can go in pursuit of purpose.

Kia ora. Welcome to the first series of Stuff that Matters Now, a podcast brought to you by Collective Intelligence. I'm Harv AKA Ian Harvey, founder of Collective Intelligence, and it's going to be my great pleasure in this series to introduce to you a bunch of really cool people who are making a difference in the world every single day. Our job here at Collective Intelligence is to help curious people evolve and become more courageous so they can tackle the stuff that's needed to make this world a better place. You're about to listen to an epic chat I've just had with one of our many change making Collective Intelligence members. Let's have a quick listen to a wee clip of some of the stuff we've talked about to give you an.

Idea of what's ahead in true society, there is a codependency that we all need each other, which is where this idea of the big basic idea of purpose is your use or usefulness, which if you take that to the next level is how do you contribute to other people? To other people? It has to be. Purpose is outside of you.

Right.

Like so when people go, oh, my purpose is to earn as much money as I can to feed my family. No, that's survival. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's number two, you know, Survival.

Yeah.

And this is the thing, like when you. The whole world we live in, and this is my take on why we have so much chronic stress, is we're all in a constant state of fear.

Before we crack on and talk about the stuff today's guest had to share with us, a big shout out to Rob McDonald and his talented team at T wangwa State over there in Hawke's Bay. Not only do these guys make international gold medal winning wines, they've helped us bring this podcast to your ears. Brilliant stuff. Thank you, Rod.

Who would call themselves the grow good guy? Well, that's Tim Jones from Christchurch and I got to interview him when he was up here in Manor II talking to the chamber of commerce around business for purpose, B Corp movement and a whole range of where the world is changing in business. I was fascinated to learn Tim's journey which has led him to where he is now and his views on how business can be a force for good throughout the world. He is a very entertaining guy and with a huge amount of passion. Good morning, Tim. Hello. And you'll notice that Tim's got a funny accent, which is okay, but he speaks English reasonably well.

Reasonably well.

Reasonable.

So terminite basic Australian as well.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay, so you're pretty educated. That's good. So Tim and I have just come off a evening last night talking to the local chamber of commerce around.

B corpse and bring them up to date with that. And.

Tom, great to have you in the. In the studio. Studio. Should we call it a studio? Studio sound and our boardroom egg cartons on the wall.

And look, it was just a great opportunity to talk to Tim this morning as he comes through town. He's very, very impressed with feeling. I know.

I'm loving it. Timaru. I'm still Timaru. Because, you know, Tim of Timaru, that's still my number one provincial town that I'm aiming For really? Yeah.

I've want to become mayor. And then, you know, it's like if your name's Tim, you get a rate rebate or something. We'll just get. Make it like an enclave, global enclave for Tim's.

So what it be for Fielding? Fred. Fred of Fielding, maybe. Anyway, we're talking. We were really talking now, so. So look, I. It's interesting, I was saying to Tim.

This morning that I've known Tim for sort of few years, but I didn't really understand what your gig is with this whole purpose thing. Right. So I'd heard about this, you know, I know about B Corp, we're a B Corp. So I just thought you were a B Corp guy, which is good, right? Not knocking that, but what I learned and why I wanted to interview Tim this morning was that there is a whole element to Tim I didn't understand.

And it's good. So.

Before I kick off, so I met at the World Forum, wasn't it? Social enterprise World Forum.

In Christchurch. And the first thing I noticed, you're a big bastard and you're sort of Welsh.

Yes. I have actually put on the bottom of my LinkedIn profile. P.S. when you meet me in real life, I have been described as abnormally tall because a lot of people get shocked as to actually how tall I am.

Oh, really?

They meet me like, oh, you way bigger than your LinkedIn photo looks like.

Yeah, big bastard.

But I'm a friendly giant.

A friendly giant. And your team is now number one in the world.

Thank you.

And the great thing is.

Thank you for bringing that up.

And the good thing is you haven't mentioned that at all. Not much, no. So thank you for that. And so look, I'm really interested in this interview today, Tim, we're going to crack on because I'm really interested. I learned a lot yesterday around purpose. The irony is we've been grappling with purpose and trying to find our purpose for the last two years and I didn't utilize your skills and I realized I had and I could have and I should have, but I didn't know what you were about. And so that's what I want from this interview today is for people to know what is this purpose thing? Why is it important and. And how you can help them.

Fantastic.

So we. So let's kick off. Where have you. Where have you. Why are you here in New Zealand?

That's a great question. It's part of my missionary work. I was sent here.

So I met a Kiwi girl back in the day. In 2005.

Come on, you bastards do that all the time.

When I see. When I. So I moved to New Zealand in 2004 and at the time, the big thing on the news was this Kiwi man drought. And so what I reckon it was is actually she was a government sanctioned snatch squad sent to the uk. Right, let's bring some fine, tall, strapping specimens.

Yes.

To New Zealand. And fill that mandrel.

Yeah.

So I came over with a young lady In 2004, we went out for a few more years, we broke up and then I moved down to Christchurch and met my now wife. So, yeah, I came here for a year in 2004. That's what the plan was. And 15 years later, Kiwi child, Kiwi wife, Kiwi.

So you, are you legally? Are you legally?

I have a passport and everything.

Have you?

You cannot get rid of me. Sorry. People have tried. They've written letters.

So, Tom, where were you born?

I was born in Oxford in the United Kingdom.

Which is not. Which is not.

Well, it's not Wales, no. But I'm a Jones, I'm half Welsh. My dad, I guess, well, I still feel he didn't make quite, perhaps as much effort as he could have done to get my mum over the border.

Right.

On that crucial day.

Right.

You know, know, Oxford to Cardiff's maybe 90 minute trip could have been done. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, identity, who you are. This, this is a big part of purpose.

We'll get to that, we'll get to that.

Don't get, you know. But, but yeah, I guess raised, you know, my mum's family, English, but with a lot of Irish heritage, but my dad's family, Welsh, interesting, but also some Irish heritage. So the Welsh side was very much, I guess, inculcated through my father. There were some dynamics between my mum and dad where it was kind of inculcated.

That's a big word for a wall. Big stomach.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, taking to the rugby in Wales, we spent most of our family holidays in Wales, so.

And there's also, I guess throughout my life there's been an under, like an undertone of supporting the underdog. And so of course, when you're going to public school in England in the 80s and 90s, supporting Welsh rugby is definitely supporting the underdog.

Like, people, people when I work, because I went to university in Cardiff and they call you a plastic taff, you know, you're half. You're not the real thing.

Right.

And it's like I Went to school every Monday morning throughout the 80s and 90s having to deal with a bunch of toffee nose English people.

Yeah.

Talking about how rubbish the team and I backed you. Don't tell me I'm not a proper supporter.

Yeah, yeah, it's easy, it's easy in.

Pontypool to console yourselves. But you try doing that in Oxford, mate.

Yeah, yeah. Because you know, through that period there were no players I can remember. I came from the 70s. Yeah, yeah.

Interestingly, I did some research a few years ago on Neil Jenkins who was.

Ugly wing nut. Yeah. A face only a mother could love truly. But at one point I think he was like the number three or four test point scorer. Now you, if he was playing for the All Blacks, you know, with a winning team, he would have, I think Dan Carter at the time was number one. Like if he had a proper team in, in front of him, he would have been properly dangerous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, fight. Yeah. So Tim, the. So where did your, your professional career and so forth, where did that, what's the. Tell us about that?

So I guess going through school, one of the, one of the memories that sticks to me, I remember talking to the careers Master at school. I went to Chris Master.

Yeah. So that will give you some idea as to what sort of school I went to. So I went to Abingdon Boys School which is just south of Oxford. I think my UK geography is failing miserably more and more. I guess it's an equivalent of say Christ College, which they're twin schools, so that kind of school environment. And I used to walk through the town every day to go to school and I'd see these people in shops and go through like a bit of a shopping mall. And I remember saying to the careers master, so how did I. I kind of understand how shops work. Like, do the people in there, do they own them? Do they rent them? Do they own the stuff? I just. Boys from this school don't work in shops. Forget about it. Don't worry, don't think about it. Okay. You know, being in a relatively sort of still Victorian era mindset of sort of command and control, just do what you're told. You go, oh, okay. You know, you will be an accountant, a lawyer, or you'll join the armed forces or you'll ideally go to Oxbridge and become a professor like.

And if you marry well, you'll never have to go into a shop.

There'll be people who go to shop for you. Yes, yeah. So that was kind of the background and yeah, I Guess the. The trajectory that was set for me was go to university and then go and get a proper job, go and follow a career. And I guess out of all the options that were kind of on the table for me, the one that I liked the most was the army. I just thought it's pretty cool. You get. Get to run around and show people. Yeah. Potentially. And blow things up. And the.

The armed forces over in UK is actually a big deal, isn't it?

It's relatively big deal, yeah. You know, and the career path for a lot of people of my peer, you know, my peer group was you go and do your three to six years and then you go and get a job in London because it's. Oh, you know, squiffy. Fantastic. Yeah. Must be a good chap. Right, in you come. You know, anything. Well, this is all. It's gonna be fantastic.

Yeah.

And that was my plan. Well.

More than likely.

It sounds very. I got a picture of square.

Yeah. Yeah. And so that was my plan. So I guess. Yeah. University. You know, I went to university because that's what boys from my school do. Didn't pause to think, do I want to go University particularly so studied history because that's what I just. I figured if I'm going to go and do this for three years, I should do something that I actually vaguely like doing. There was also a little part of me that's like our history, six hours a week of lectures. I could probably handle that. This is my housemate Ben, who was doing zoology doing 12 hours a day. I was like, he's like, man, that's not fair. I said, well, no, this just shows a higher level of education, surely that I've chosen this. Anyway, so I did studied medieval history, as you do, and I loved it. And then who won off various people.

Yeah.

William the Conqueror did a pretty good job.

He did all right. Yeah.

That was. My thesis was comparing William the Conqueror and Harold to see whether, like, you know, you, obviously, you win the battle. You're called William the Conqueror. It's kind of.

I guess, you know, the theory is he must have been amazing. Actually. It was a really close. It was a close game.

Right.

One of the longest battles in medieval. In the medieval. Lasted about eight hours. Unheard of. So it was actually a really close game. Could have gone either way. There you go.

The shit you learn.

I know. And still there. And. Yeah, so I went to university, was in the reserve forces at university and then came out the end of it. Excuse me. Went to apply for the army and got A letter back from them saying, you're untrainable in her majesty's forces as an officer. Don't call us again. And so that was nice and clear. It was really clear.

But like you're. But like your, your guidance guy at school. Yeah. Don't go to the shop.

Just don't go in the shop.

Don't go in the army.

Okay.

Right.

That's my plan.

Kind of was your reason for that.

Looking back, it now makes complete sense. And I see that at the time I was like, just.

Were you devastated?

Oh, apoplectic would be the next big word I'd throw into the conversation in this one week.

There was a girl who I was trying to date and we'd had a couple of dates. No, no. And I thought she was like the best thing since sliced bread. She broke up with me.

Right.

I got the letter from the army.

Right.

And on the day that I opened the letter, I trod in dog poo. And my, my housemates just. They thought this was the funniest thing ever. And I'm just like, right, that's it. You know?

Yeah.

At least the third thing, the dog poo was, you know, minimal.

Yeah.

Things come in threes.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's just like everything, my entire future vision had just been imploded. Imploded.

I love that letter. Never contact. This.

This is the thing. So you get. There's basically three letters you get. One is congratulations. You can get to go to Sandhurst, which is like the officer training place. And the next intake is whenever it is. Or you can defer and da, da, da. Or you get what's called the Roco letter. So they have a thing called Row Allen Company. So it basically means you're a bit of a rough diamond. We think if we beat you up for 12 weeks on a pre training program, you might make it through. And typically the people that do, Roal and Company, literally, if you survive it, I know two mates that got Roko passes and they got medically discharged. They literally try and kill you.

Right.

And if you survive, then obviously you're made of good stuff.

Right.

And the people that survive that typically come on go on to become seriously amazing leaders. Yeah. I didn't even get that.

Yeah. And then you got. The third letter is just don't turn up.

Yeah. So I look back on the, on the, on the selection program and there was a couple of key things that I know I didn't do as well as I could have done, but I just think, I mean, they clearly do a lot of they must spend a lot of money on sort of psychometrics and evaluating. And realistically, I look back on where I would have had to go as an army officer. I would have gone. The day I left to go to. I left, ultimately go to Australia after this. The day I left, my reserve unit, got called up to go to Iraq.

Right.

And I'm like, I kind of actually don't fundamentally agree with what you're doing over there.

Yeah.

And that's probably not a good place to be as an officer in charge of 30 young men and women going, yeah, I'm not so convinced. But we're going anyway.

Yeah.

That's not a good pip talk. No, it's not.

Follow me, follow me.

Maybe. Actually, should we have a chat about this? Yeah. So I think, I look back now, so.

So the call by the army was.

Right, I. Yeah, I think it was, yeah. But it's interesting. I think I'm not putting myself in the same league as a human as Charles Upham, but I read his biography and, you know, they described him as the worst barrack room officer they'd ever had, but he had them. He had that mindset of thinking differently. And I think that if I had got in, that's what I would have bought.

Right.

But I think I would have been. I mean, I look at what I. How I challenge everything now. And that was. That was in me. Yeah. And I think I just would have.

But Charles often was in World War II and they took everybody.

Exactly.

There was no. There was no test.

Totally.

It was just like.

And this is the interesting thing, you know, some of the best officers that the British army has. Has produced didn't go through Sandhurst. They didn't go through the regimented trading program to create, you know, the cookie cutter officer. So I kind of look at that. I. I just think, yeah, I would have spent six years in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yeah.

And I know mates who've been there and they. They didn't have fun times. So I'm kind of like, I literally dodged a bullet. So I look back at the time, I was like.

Why do they hate me?

You know, all my mates have got. Haven't got in, you know, and this is. There's an interesting undertone there again of like a. So I ended up in sales. And one of the biggest factors that hampers people selling is something called a need for approval. So the reason most people get into sales is they want other people to like them. It's like, if I. If you buy my stuff, I'll feel good because, you know, we've made a connection. I've helped you.

So. Yeah, that kind of got a real slap when it's like all my mates have got in and I haven't. I must be some kind of real.

Yeah, well, there is an element. So, so how did, how did you, like, was this, seriously, this is, was this a big deal for you to overcome over the massive years?

It's probably, probably took me 10 years.

Right.

Literally.

Right. Because we're joking about it now. But I'm picturing all your mates going in one direction but you're not included 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. And what So I, I, I was sort of so committed to that path, I even thought about joining the army as a soldier.

Right.

And my mates were like, do you know how much you'll get beaten up?

Right.

By you saying you went to like they find out you went to a posh school.

Yeah.

And you're with 16 year old, 18 year old street fighters from, you know, the northeast of England or Scotland. Like what planet are you on?

Yeah.

So I basically said, right, I'm gonna go to Australia for a year. I'm gonna go find myself.

Right.

And what was really interesting was I went to Brisbane. I thought, I'm not gonna, there's no point going to Sydney. Sydney is just, I'll live in a flat full of palms. I'll work in some rubbish telesales job with palms and I'll go to the beach with palms. Like I might as well go to Manchester if I want to hang out with palms.

Well, it's like the New Zealanders go to London.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I thought, I'll go to Brisbane. It seems like pretty warm and I don't know anyone there. So I literally turned up into a backpackers and I thought I should probably get a job. And so I went to the local myer center in Brisbane, like their shopping center. And I was wandering around and it's a shop.

Yeah.

And there was a Canterbury Rugby store in there and they had an ad in the window saying, you know, part time sales assistant. I thought, well, I know a bit about rugby. Could probably bluff my way into selling a rugby top or two. Anyway, walked in and the guy who was the manager, I said, oh, g'. Day. Interested in the job. And he looked at me and went, do you play rugby? And I said, well, not right now. I've just landed from the uk. Who did he play for? And I said, I played for these things. I played for the army. And he goes, oh, I'VE just left the navy. I used to play Navy rugby. You must be a good bloke. I'll have a chat to the boss. The job's yours. And so going to Australia to get away from this military connection, this. My mate Tyson, he became a really good mate. And all his mates were either in the army or just leaving the army or just joining the army. And I'm like, I've come to the other side of the world and I meet the same tribe.

Damn you. Why are you doing this to me? Yeah. And I ended up actually living with a family to. Through my mate Tyson. Family friends of his, the Tolhurst. And the dad was an ex army officer and all his mates were ex army. So I was kind of. It was bizarre how I went to the other side of the world to get away from that environment and. And not have to go and hang out with my mates in their officer's mess for a beer and be reminded of my failure and how useless I am as a human. And I end up sit, you know, in. Exactly. Yeah. I don't. I haven't really fully unpacked that. As to why. Why that happened, I don't know. Maybe I sort of manifested it by having that. I even tried to join the Australian Army. I thought, bugger it if you. If. If you don't want me motherland. But because I wasn't a citizen, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have me. And I was like, well, surely wouldn't you give me citizenship if I volunteer for your army? Wouldn't that be a deal we could cut? They're like, no, it doesn't work like that, mate.

Right, fine. So how long do you stay in Brisbane for?

Just under a year.

Right? Yeah. And. And then what was the plan? What was going through your head at that stage?

No plan. I think for me, you know, life had been pretty regimented. You know, I went to a junior public school and then I think we call it public school, private school, same difference, posh school. And then went, you know, went to university. Slightly less regimented, but, you know, going to Australia, it was just like, I just want to go. And, you know, a lot of people, I guess, have a gap year between school and uni. I didn't do that. So I kind of felt like this is just my year to basically go and drink, well, rum and Coke, as it turned out, because that's what you do in Brisbane, Queensland. Diesel, as they affectionately call it, and just, you know, just let loose for a year, really, and just kind of yeah, Just let it all go. But during that I just. You know, Australia is a magnificent country, but when you're working minimum wage jobs on a. I had a working holiday visa, so I could only work for three months in any role before I had to move on. So you're doing that. It's pretty transitory. You don't have any money and you sort of go, man, I'd love to go to the Daintree, but I've got 25 bucks.

Yeah.

So I thought, well, actually, maybe I should go and get a proper job and then maybe I could, you know, if I got a job with a really big company, I could maybe transfer to Australia ultimately. Or, you know, if I'm working in a really well paid job in the uk, I can fly to Australia whenever I want and go for a holiday.

Yeah.

So I started reconnecting with a few mates back in the uk and one of them, Will, he had had a slightly similar story. He had been in the navy, or I think he had gone through part of the training program and then just realized he didn't want to do it. And so he had got a job working for an orthopedic company selling hips and knees. And he just said, mate, you'll. You'll be brilliant. Like, they just employ tall blokes predominantly, who have played rugby to a decent level, who can learn the basics of orthopaedics to go and talk to orthopaedic surgeons. And I was like, that does sound like really random and quite interesting. I've always been a. I haven't really unpacked this either. I like the. The non normal.

Right.

You know, medieval history. Like, who studies medieval history? Like every car I've had, it's always been something a bit different, but different. Maybe it's that need for approval. I want people to notice me and go, oh, look, he's a bit different. He must be exotic and exciting and it's just something in it appealed to me. He said, look, the money's really good, you know, give you a car and insurance and there's loads of international travel and I mean, I must have been, what, 21, 22 or something. Sign me up. So I said, well, what do I do? And he said, look, when you come back or when you're coming back, let me know. Basically, I can get you through the first couple of rounds of interviews as a personal recommendation. From there, it's over to you. So I ended up applying through to Johnson. It was Johnson Johnson. They had a graduate training scheme and so yeah, he got me through the first two rounds. So I basically had to go through one set of interviews and then some testing and I got offered the job and so.

So you made it through this testing? Yeah. Right.

Which is quite. That was quite good because it's like, you know, the Johnson and Johnson graduate training scheme is like, they don't take numpties well, apparently.

But back then.

Back then, I don't know, maybe they. I slipped through. But it's kind of up there in many ways with like, you know, Procter and Gambler or Unilever, you know, they take good people. So that was quite affirming to. Okay, right. I'm actually a good human.

You're back.

You're back on the saddle.

Yeah, right, Right. I'm accepted.

Yeah.

So then. And you're back in the UK at this.

In the uk.

Yep. And then you don't obviously have to do a bit of training to learn what this stuff was all about.

Pretty much, yeah. And it's. It's a. And again, you know, this is a whole world that you just don't get taught about, you know, Mr. Townsend, where was this as an option? You know, it's a really interesting. It is a genuinely interesting job, which very few people ever understand. So if you think about in a hospital, every product that is sold into a hospital or was used in a hospital, there is at least potentially 10 to 12 companies who could supply that product. And each of those companies has a person like me selling that product into a hospital.

Right.

But you don't. You don't. You know that you, as a patient, you just don't. You don't see that. Yeah. So, yeah, the training was super intense and it's pass fail. So I think it was the first six or six or eight weeks, basically you had tests on biomechanics and physiology of the hip and knee. So I was selling hips and knees. So if you didn't get, I think like 90 pass mark. If you didn't pass it, you don't.

Yeah, because that's interesting. You know, last night Tim stayed with Kate and I and listening to you talk to Kate, who's a doctor. You know, you sound as though you knew you.

Yeah. And you have to, because ultimately the job. So part of the job was meeting surgeons in their. In their consulting rooms and having conversations with them and understanding what they're trying to achieve in surgery and. And being able to.

So I had to comprehend totally.

You literally, you learn the language of orthopaedics because it is a. It Is a. You know, it's lots of Latin terminology with.

It's.

It's a mixture of. It's really weird. It's like a mixture of Latin and mechanics.

Yeah. Carpentry and. Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah.

Literally, you know, so you can't just.

Turn up and go, look, we've got a lovely blue one. You should buy the blue one.

So awesome.

It's so good. It looked lovely in Mr. Smith.

And ultimately, you. Part of the job is you go into the operating theater and you support the surgery. So your product, you know, the surgeon and. And his or her team are the experts on.

So you've got an opinion, you're watching.

Yes.

And do you have an opinion on that?

Totally. So when they're getting down to putting the prosthesis in or the implant, you are the expert, because you see maybe 10,000 of them a year, whereas the surgeon might only see 100. And so if they. If there's some tricky anatomy or something's not just going right, they literally, you.

Know, and they ask your opinion, they'll.

Turn around and go. Literally, they'll go, what do I do now?

Oh, Tim, I'm not cool with this. I mean, I've had one hip, but I've another. You.

Do you want me to come and help with the second one?

Oh, that's spooky.

It is.

I mean, you're how old at this stage?

Oh, early twenties.

And you're Army. Army region.

Army failure.

Yeah.

Can't even knock halls down.

Did this freak you out at all to begin with?

Yeah. You're, like, massively nervous. I mean, they. They nurture you through the first. Well, the first thing you have to do is the faint test. So they send you to a friendly orthopedic surgeon, and they stand you in the operating theater. And if you faint, you have one more chance, you go to another one. If you faint again, you don't get the job. But, yeah, I mean, because I was on the training program, a lot of my initial part was out following other sales reps. So big shout out to Nige Kavanagh. He was my mentor. He was just a legend. Had so much time for Nige. And.

So tell me, why was he so good?

He just. He was super funny. He was a Scouser. Hey. And I suck it, you know, like, just. That's probably more Monk Union. But anyway, yeah, just. It took the time just to help me get to what, you know, he. He knew the standard that you needed. Like, he was, you know, one of the highest performing. It's because it's this. I guess here's a nice segue into the whole purpose, profit thing. You know, he understood how to help me understand how to do the sales and the importance of, you know, you have to hit your target. But, you know, salespeople are generally quite wily and they game the system. They'll. They'll understand, okay, right, I need to sell five of those and six of them, 10 of them, then I get my commission. Happy days. But also he understood the protocol and the etiquette of the operating theater and, you know, the nuances of a good hip and a good knee replacement.

Right.

And that's really what you, what you were learning.

Right.

But he was just, he was just a nice guy and did it in a, in a nice manner.

Yeah, yeah. See, it's interesting. So I've had been in surgery a bit this year, but I'm interested in the, the people who run the team and the, in the surgery, they fascinate me.

Yep.

You know, they're just sitting in the middle of this thing, not very busy, just looking, coordinating and so forth. And I love chatting to them beforehand. Yeah. You know, because I'd say, what do you do? And say, well, I'm in charge of all this.

Right.

And just go, ah. You know, and I thought, because, you know, stuff obviously goes wrong, but they're just looking at, everybody's doing their specific thing and this person was overseeing the whole shebang. Yeah. So, okay, so.

You hit the mentor in your early 20s and then how long did you stay with in that game?

So about 10 years in total. So. Yeah. Met Kiwi, girlfriend, moved to New Zealand and ended up.

Were you good at this?

I think I was, yeah. I mean, I knew my surgical stuff.

I did pretty well. You know, when I moved to New Zealand, the first company that I worked for, they literally gave me a sheet of A4 paper and said, we think these guys are spine surgeons. That's your business. You need to grow this to a million dollar business by the end of this year. And a million dollars in orthopedics sales is not massive, but from a base of like $300,000, that's not a bad nudge.

Right.

And so this first company, I grew that ultimately to it. There's a team of three of us and we were doing about four or five million dollars of sales. So I think I did all right. Yeah, I enjoyed it.

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

I mean, it's genuinely interesting. You know, every day you're walking and.

This goes on today, this, this whole. Right I just. Yeah, yeah. So then I'm interested in some of the ethics that would go on behind the scenes.

Yep.

Tom, that would be.

Are there some compromises from time to time on the ethics side of it?

Yes.

Okay. Are we able to talk about that?

Yeah, 100%. And that's really what got to me over. Over time. So the first company I worked for was a company called Synthes, or Syntes, if you're in Switzerland.

And they had bought a product from another company, which is really common, and they.

Were testing the product to get it ready for, you know, full market launch. And during that process, eight people died on the operating table because the product wasn't actually fit for surgery yet, wasn't fit for putting into humans. It was a cement product. So dental cement.

Right.

Is pretty common. And so for quite often, little old ladies get. It's called a vertebral fracture. So their spine, one of their bones just collapses. Yeah. And so because the bone quality is normally really poor, it's hard to put screws and nuts and bolts, which is basically what spinal surgery is all about. And so the holy grail was like, if you could create a cement product that you can just inject in and basically pump it back up, right, that might work. Anyway, this product.

It'S the setting time, basically, is what's critical. So the hip replacement you've had, they use cement, and it's really well documented that you need a quick setting time. So the cement goes hard really quick. So you've got to be really dab hand at getting the implant in. So the challenge with the cement that they used here was they got the mixture wrong, I guess, basically, and it just leaked into the person. And so you've got this hot cement just crossing through, you know. Yeah. Some eight patients died on the operating table in an operation that they should have walked out of. And the company pursued doing the surgery because they wanted to get the. They wanted the product to be able to get to market so that the other companies didn't get theirs to market because, you know, first. First in wins gets market share. And yeah, I can say. I can post you the link from the New York Times or Washington Post, can't remember which one it is, where they. They have the, you know, some of the insights and documentation what was going in inside in the company. And. But when you're in the company, they kind of go, look, you know, this stuff happens all the time. You know, when you're pushing the boundaries, you know, how else are we gonna.

The big picture?

You Know, you've got to think about this. Eight people out of the number of surgeries and you go, I suppose it makes sense, yeah, you know, because you, I guess you're relatively young and naive anyway, but you know, they're paying you and life's good. So that was like the first one and then the second one was where it must been about two or three years later. It was mainly in the usa, but the ripple came out all the way through to New Zealand as well. There was a whistleblower from one of the medical companies. She was the lady who was booking the travel and she just went, I don't know, I can't remember the actual. Whether she just had a bad time and she thought, right, this is it, I'm taking you down. But she basically went to the U.S. department of justice and showed all the payments and the hotel bills and the food, flights and accommodation that they'd been paying for. Surgeons and their wives and their kids and all the rest of it, which was illegal. And so the Department of Justice in the US basically subpoenaed every major orthopedic company and said, right, show us your books, what's going on? And we kind of knew, I mean, I didn't have a surgeon on my books who, who I knew that we were paying. I mean, there were things like per diems and hey, look, we'd love you to come and speak at this conference and yes, would Mrs. Zein. So I like to come as well. I'm sure we can find a business class flight for them and what have you. But at the highest level, and particularly in the us, surgeons were having Porsches, Ferraris, houses bought for them. It's like, that's nice work if you can get it.

Yeah.

And again, the defense was, yeah, but we're all doing it. It's a level playing field.

And so, and so then the repercussions of that is that they're picking that, that product over other products, regardless of whether it was suited and all that sort of.

Exactly that. Right. But like I say, you know, the argument from the companies and to a degree the surgeons was, well, you know, your products FDA approved or it's CE mark safe use, what difference does it make? You know, it's like you've got a teal keep cup. You know, it'd be me saying, well, yeah, but his is red.

Right.

Does the same thing, just a different color.

So.

And again, you kind of go, yeah, I suppose. Right, I see your argument.

So that was the first time that just, that dropped into Your consciousness that. Yeah, something's not a handy here.

Yeah. And then I guess the final one, that really brought it home to me. I always wondered why most of the surgeons in New Zealand have their own business. I just didn't really think about it. So if a surgeon's working in private, they will ask you for a quote for the implants that they're going to use. You send that through to their rooms. Their rooms, then deal with Southern Cross Insurance or whoever, process at their end, and then the surgery gets done. And I was like, okay, it is what it is. I guess that's just how they do it. Didn't really think about it, but then I had to. One of the companies I was working for, just before I left medical, part of my job was to go and talk to the insurance providers. We had a new product that was new to market. It was more expensive than what else was out there, but it had quicker recovery time. So I was just trying to give them the evidence to say, look, you're paying more upfront, but you're going to pay less overall. It's a better surgery, better outcomes. And as part of that, the guy who I sat down, he said, you know, this is all good. Yeah, Look, I'm sure this will. This will be fine. He said, but while you're here, he's got a bit of a random question for you. He said, do you know much about hips and knees? I said, well, I used to sell them. I know roughly what's going on. He said, well, do you know roughly how much this one costs? And I said, well, I know how much that one costs. It's about $5,000 pretty much on the nose. And he's like, so do you know why this surgeon would be sending me invoices for $10,000 for that implant?

There's only one immediate reason that springs to mind, is that he wants to put $5,000 in his pocket.

Or postage was really expensive. Yeah, yeah.

And so essentially, that's. That's the system that we have here. So it's definitely happening in orthopaedics. I don't know of other specialties, but the surgeons call it a handling fee. In it, I'm doing inverted commas for the radio. So under the podcast. Podcast, sorry.

Yeah.

On the wireless.

Yes.

This is fielding.

Be nice. Sorry.

So, yeah, they. So the surgeons have agreed different pricing tiers with the insurance companies. So for. For the hip replacing that you've had in their private agreement, they will say that, look, in extreme cases, we might have to put $10,000 worth of implants, but actually 98.9% of the time it will be a $5,000 implant. So we can invoice up to 10. That's what we've got, the boundary. So of course what they do is just go, I'll just invoice for 10. But they will negotiate with the companies the best rate that they can. Oh look, come on, I do 100 of your hips a year. Come on, make it four and a half. Oh, you're all right then, right?

There is no transparency or accountability as to where that many, that money in the middle is going. But.

And that's still the same today as.

Far as I'm aware. Right. I mean I actually rang the Serious Fraud Office when I heard this. When I kind of, in my mind I had the smoking gun, I, I had my suspicions and, and this guy at Southern Cross just like, okay. And I rang them and they just said, well, there's not a clear case of who's being defrauded here. I was like, well surely everyone who's got an insurance policy in New Zealand is paying more money than they need to because these jokers are.

Interesting.

Buying a second Maserati.

Look, I've just had some procedure on my head. I have durbitrance, I've had one hand done and the other one's about to be done. Use the new procedure where it's not operated on. So the operation costs 12 grand to do this. Right. And the surgeon that did this does it through an injection. Right. And it took takes three days basically for it to work and. Right. And it cost $4,000. No surgery, $4,000. This is great. Lots of people using it. Nah, I said why not? No profit on it. Right. It's because you take a twelve thousand dollar down to four and this thing is just a stunning non surgical procedure but the doc, the surgeons aren't taking it on. Yeah. And you know, I'm just, I'm booked in for my second one and you know, and I put in the claim to Southern Cross and I, you know, they won't cover the cost of the injection because it's not covered by. Is it pharma? Right, Pharma. Right. I'm going to.

But that makes no sense.

It doesn't make any sense.

Right, but it does. And this is, you know, this was the, the crisis of conscience I had which meant I had to leave. If the medical industry.

Its primary objective should be making humans better at any cost, but it's not it's primary objective and and this is what really got me. It's like not from the companies. You can kind of understand. Okay. Because that's the culture, that's the, you know, the, the main culture of business is we need to make as much money as we can for the shareholders. You can kind of understand why they might cut corners to make more money, but when the surgeons are doing it. I worked with about 40 different spinal surgeons in New Zealand and when I first started meeting them, I asked them all this, this one question amongst many, but the one I asked all of them was, why did you choose to become a surgeon? One of them, only one of them. I'd been hospitalized as a kid and I just saw how amazing the service was and I wanted to give back all the others. Well, you know, I was going to be a world class accountant, lawyer or doctor. I just like the idea of cutting people open. Yep, okay.

Completely bereft of the purpose. And so if your focus is on making as much money, you choose the path that makes the most money, regardless of the potential side effects. And if the industry, that is surely the one industry in the world that should be 100% purpose driven, if that's not, what hope have we got in the rest of the world?

So, Tim, that. Yeah, okay, so it's a nice little segue into the. Which is also a big word for doing good, right? It was a small word, but it was a big word. But so, so 10 years in the game, it starts to get to you. Yep, yep. And, and what was what, what came from this for you? What was the, what fell out for you to go, I want to do something different?

I mean, it was literally just that it all kind of, kind of came together. I mean, I was certainly helped in inverted commons again by the earthquakes in Christchurch and then pretty soon after that, the birth of our daughter. So a birth or death in a family and a near death experience, two great ways to have your subconscious awoken. You know, you often hear, and I think this is why, why there are so many B cores and purpose driven businesses. In Christchurch. We had a collective near death experience. You know, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This life is short, it's fragile.

You can feel it in Christchurch at the moment. You know, it's interesting and you know, you've been through the massacre in March as well, and Christchurch has got an energy all its own right now. Yeah, it's quite so.

And I think it's from that. That's my take on it. And so for me, I feel really lucky in that regard, it was like, done. I'm out. Can't do it anymore. So I didn't really have this lingering. Too much of a lingering period of. Or should I go? Should I not go? Which is where I think most people get.

Yeah.

It's like, life's good.

Yeah.

Why would I upset this? I know there's bad stuff that I'm kind of vicariously supporting, but you hit the big job. Me, I just. It's like, nah. And literally, I remember I was in the operating theater in Ascot Hospital in Auckland. Lunchtime, I down tools. I walked home, said, I'm out. I can't do this anymore. The surgeon being particularly obnoxious. I'm sitting there going, I know. I just know. I know you now. I know what you're about. And you're. You're bitching and moaning to these nurses who work twice the hours you do for a pittance. And, yeah, it's not. The surgery is complex. That's what you pay to do, mate.

Yeah.

And I just walked home, said, well, I'm out. Can't do it. And so. But the next part of the journey was awful. I'm not, you know, when everything that you've believed to be true, you kind of lift up the veil and go, oh, my word, it's all a lie. It's all a ruse. Like, that hits you. And so I ended up applying for about 60 different jobs. I thought it must. Maybe it's just medical. Like, it's such. Because it's such a little bubble of an industry.

And it's not. You're not really selling in the business to business, you're selling to doctors. It's not. It's not the proper business world. So I applied for about 60 different jobs, you know, sales manager here and da, da, da. I just want to go and try something else. Just give anything a go. But I ended up landing a job as general manager for a firm of surveyors and engineers. And I thought, oh, this would be interesting, you know, because you're working in the. In the built environment. A. It was. So we'd moved to Auckland post quake. It's like, cool. Back to Christchurch, hopefully contribute to the rebuild in a meaningful way. Like, I'm not a builder, I have no technical skills. But, you know, if I'm working in that environment, that's quite cool.

And I thought, no, it's gonna be really interesting. Just bumping up against lots of different industries, or would this be a really good gateway to sort of see what else is out there? But After a couple of months, I was like, man, I thought, you know, orthopedic surgeons like money and felt entitled. And then I met commercial property developers. It's like, oh, my word. It's like, this is no different. People just want to make as much money as they can, and they don't care about the environmental and social consequences of the action. So as long as they're making the money.

You left one lot of wank frying.

Pan into the fire and then found another one. Yeah, and I got really, really depressed. I said, I. Now that I know what I know, I can't do this. Like, I cannot sit here for the next 40 years knowing what we're doing just to help this bunch of people make more money. I just. You almost, you know, what's the movie? There's a movie. It's like a 1970s movie where the guy has these sunglasses and he can see. Like he sees through all the advertising. I can't remember the name of it.

Oh, really?

Yeah. And it's like he sees the world for what? And it's like, I felt like this. It's like, you know, you almost want to just stop and shake people. Can't you see what you're doing? Can you see the insanity in the system? This is all crazy. And so for a while, I just thought, I am. I am alone. Like, it's me, you know? Why? You know, I've had this awakening, maybe. Do we need to go to Hill Morton? The loony bin in Gryce shirt, You know, do I need to check myself in?

You know, it's interesting. Consciousness is a fascinating thing. Right? Because once you've got it, it's pretty hard to turn off.

This is the thing. Oh, there's a really cool cartoon I've got, and it's these two Buddhist monks and one's eyes closed, deep in meditation, and the other one's kind of got one eye open, and out of the corner of his mouth he goes, hey, have you ever thought about quitting this for a life of mindless consumerism? And it's like the further you go down the rabbit hole, you can't go back. And again, what's it, you know, you look at the guy who's been scientifically proven to be the happiest guy in the world. Matthew Rickard. He's a Buddhist monk.

Right.

Maybe we are doing it wrong.

So. So you went through this, and when you say you were depressed, like, were you clinically depressed?

I don't know.

Or you just. Off with the world.

Just. Just A sense of impending doom. I just felt I'm unemployable. I can't, there's, I can't see me sitting in a job.

Right.

You know, just. And this is the system, this is what it is. Like, this is what everyone else is doing.

So you're going back to almost the army days.

You don't fit in the army. Yeah, you had fitted in this thing. They did accept you. But you're going extreme morals and values don't align with us. And where do they align?

Exactly that.

Right.

And so it was on that journey I discovered B Core. And so I was like, hey, this is different. Like they, they want to, you know, make money, but they actually care. I thought, wow, this is interesting. So I thought, I bet there can't be one in New Zealand. Wouldn't it be cool if I could get this, this company I was working for to be a B corp? So I jumped and searched like, damn it, there's two in New Zealand. There won't be one in the South Islands. Nothing ever happens in Christchurch, damn it, there's one in Christchurch. And so I denied for about a month and I thought, oh, shall I send these people an email? And in the end I saw it right. So I emailed the CEO Steve Arda. I said, hi Steve, just come across B Corp really, you know, just don't know what it is.

So can. We haven't really talked about B Corp on this podcast, but before. So can you just quickly. Because I don't want to focus too much on the B Corp. I'm more interested in the purpose thing. And this is all about me, this podcast, right? Yep. So just, so just frame up what B Corp is so people understand what this thing is.

So B Corporation was founded in about 2007 with the concept that, you know, the for profit world. Yes, we've had amazing gains and some amazing opportunities come out of it, but there has been a societal and environmental cost to it. So what if we could create a movement of businesses and organizations that recognize that whilst, you know, being in commerce and making a profit, you do good whilst you're doing that and certainly minimize the harm that you do. So that's kind of in essence, so B Corporation business for good. I guess their tagline is aim to be the best for the world, not the best in the world. So it's kind of just taking, you know, what is competition, what is success and twisting it a little bit and going, let's have success, success for everyone. Not just.

Right. So it's still Profit orientated.

Yep.

And it's making sure that you're not looking after just the shareholders.

Exactly that. But you're looking just the financial return.

Right.

So I guess the. It's come out of the US where and part one of the reasons why they're called a B Corp is a limited company off the shelf in the US is called a C Corporation. And if you are the CEO of a C corporation, the only sort of fiduciary goal that you have to maintain is increasing shareholder value each quarter. So you have to make more money. And they don't, you know, the government, the legal system, the shareholders don't care how you do that. That's not it. There's no laws around that. You just have to make more money. And so that's how we, I feel we've ended up where we are. It's like, well, how do we cut more corners? How do we save some costs? You know, how do we do stuff? So as a B Corp or a pbc, which is like an off the shelf B corp framework, it basically gives the leadership team, the CEO, the mandate to go, yeah, look, we aim to make a profit, but we're not going to do it at the expense of the environment. Planet. Environment. Community, our suppliers, whatever. So I kind of hate the word holistic, but it is that.

So this must have been quite a nice.

Surprise. Very much.

It's like, I'm not. Okay, I might be crazy, but there's other people that are crazy like me. Okay. Yeah, let's not go there.

Yeah, yeah, okay, let's just. Yeah, you are a little bit crazy.

Okay.

Yeah. So. So, okay, so then you've got this, you've got this thing, this B corp thing going on and you go, okay, I found my crowd.

Yep.

That's what it was like for.

You haven't been kicked out of this one yet. So it's going strong.

Yeah. A few more years and.

And so. And your business now is a registered B corp. Yep. Yep. And in New Zealand we have got.

20 something I need to check here. I was asked this last night. I should have had that number. We're high twenties.

Yeah.

With I personally know there's four or five more coming through that I've been working with recently and there'll be others.

So it's a, it's a growing movement worldwide. It's growing in New Zealand at any size company can become a B corp. It is, I mean collective intelligence became a B Corp about 12, 18 months ago.

Yep.

It is phenomenally hard to get but it is. It's. It's. What's the word? It's. It's. It's a fabulous standard and, you know, we're a better company as a result. And it's great to have that validation from outside. Yep. Yeah.

Bcorporation.com. yeah, for more info.

And anybody can do the assessment.

Free to take the assessment if you want to certify.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's a great tool just to look at your business through. Just see. Look at what you don't know.

Yeah.

It looks at your business across five pillars, so governance, employees, environmental impact, social impact, and then your sort of business model, how you treat you.

So for us, Tim, it forced us to look at every aspect of our business, you know, and it's. It's not easy. You've got to get 80 points out of 200. And there was a young woman last night, it was like. And I laughed because it was. I had the same attitude. Yeah. How hard can it get be to get 80 points out of a possible 200? Yeah, that's only 40%. You know, I. I did that at school, so it can't be that hard. But it is a phenomenally tough standard to get. Okay, so then you've got the. The crowd there and. And you've been a huge ambassador of B Corp in New Zealand and in Christchurch. I also think that Christchurch is really strong in this field because of your work. You know, you've helped a lot of people through the system and so forth. And.

You know, I've connected with people that I think need to look at this B Corp status and helping them through, because.

To ease that pain of getting through the system.

But what I really want to focus on is this unique thing that you do that I wasn't aware of, which I should have been.

I'll talk to my marketing self, which I should.

Which I should have been is around this thing called Purpose. What's that about?

Yeah, it's really curious. So this whole, you know, finding B core, then, like I say, it's the rabbit hole that I've gone down and, And. But the more I go down it, the more it just makes sense. And so I've just been doing a whole lot of research. I'm really lucky to have been given two opportunities to give some keynote talks at some events coming up. And I thought, right, I need to, like, I've given talks, they're okay, but I want to make, like, a really amazing one. And so as part of that, I've been doing a heap of Research on purpose and just trying to, it's been really useful to help me try and clarify it in my head. Because purpose is, it can be intangible. You know, it's, it's a, it is a potential, a fleeting moment here or there that you don't really recognize, but when you look back on it, you recognize it. This was an exercise. We got the people at the event last night. So, like, what's the moment of purpose that you can recognize in the last week or month? Like, and it takes time to connect to it and the idea of purpose in many ways, I said to you yesterday, it's kind of like trying to think of the, or explain the taste and smell of the number three. It's like, it's, it is quite a difficult topic. And you were going to use that.

Word again, weren't you?

Ethereal. Yeah, sorry.

And I think it's because it's something that we're not conditioned to think about. You know, anything that you don't know, you, you have to grapple with it when you first come across it and, but you start researching some of the great works of time and some of the greatest thinkers of time, which is what I've been doing. You know that the earliest quote on purpose I can find is Socrates in sort of 400 BC we know this stuff, you know, I know Buddha was the first quote. Basically a life of purpose. A purpose. The purpose of life is a life of purpose. This is like, I can't remember how long ago that was.

I don't know.

I know because we don't get.

If you, if, if we all knew this stuff, it would be systemically changing.

Right, Right.

So you could argue that there is a good reason you look, I mean even you look back in the, like the 17, 1800s, you would have been taught, you know, properly how to debate and you'd be taught how to, you know, question ideas and challenge. We're not even taught that anymore. You know, you just taught. And I went to a really good school, you know, top percentage school in the uk. I was taught how to essentially what, what they were looking to pump out was a Victorian explorer, like someone who will not really challenge authority, but will go off and conquer foreign lands.

Right.

That's what they're, that's the mindset of the school that, you know, and, and success for them is getting you to go to Oxford or Cambridge.

Right. That's a KPI.

That's a KPI. Not necessarily creating well rounded individuals who go and challenge and be deep, think like we don't teach anyone to do that. There's no that. There's no value in that.

Okay, I just want to go back to this basic thing. Why is purpose important?

So.

If you're doing anything and there is no meaning or purpose to it, how long do you do it for? If I said to you I want.

You to, can people do it forever?

Well, and they do, but how do they feel going through that? Why do we have such high rates of mental health issues? Youth suicide guys sort of our age, high suicide rates. You know, one of the. I guess one of the phrases I use is, yeah, sure, we've never had it so good. Like being born now. IPhones, microphones, podcasts. There's no. There's very few kind of infectious diseases that are going to catch us today and probably kill us by the end of today. Like, life's pretty good. If you've been born in New Zealand or any western democratized country, you've had it the best you've ever had it in history.

We've got anxiety, Totally. Chronic stress, all that sort of shit. And suicide rates.

Yes. So we've never had it so good, but we've never felt so bad.

Right.

And why is that? And my take on it is because the majority of us are spending most of our lives doing stuff that is meaningless. We've been conditioned that even if you're paid well. Even if you're paid well. I talked about this last night. So there's a Harvard study, and they followed people for 80 years, and it's still going. And they initially took a cohort of people from Harvard University, and this includes presidents of the USA are in this cohort. And then they thought, hang on a minute. This isn't really like. This is a pretty exclusive cohort. We should probably follow something different. So they've also got a group of the poorest of the poor in Boston, and they wanted to follow these two groups to see what leads to a good life. How do we replicate a good life? The number one determiner of a good life life, full of contentment, was the number was. Was an adequate number of close connections, like people that you can turn to and talk to about anything and know that they will support you. Not money, not wealth, not prestige, not power, the village, none of that. Connection.

Yeah.

And.

Even that, the whole. The whole idea of work, to a degree, like humans aren't designed to sit in a cubicle for eight hours a day and focus on a spreadsheet for potentially no greater good than just making the company more Money. And that's what most of us are doing. We are meaning seeking creatures. For whatever reason, we've evolved this way. Partly for me, I think you look at a tribe like if we were in the wet field with no nice building and microphones, let's say. I mean, you're a farmer. By background, you're really good at raising the livestock. Well, I'm a big unit. I might be better at building the houses. Well, we need each other. Because if I'm building the house, I'm not making the. I'm not tending livestock. But while you're tending livestock, you can't build a house. And so there is a. In true society, there is a codependency that we all need each other, which is where this idea of, the basic idea of purpose is your use or usefulness, which if you take that to the next level, is how do you.

Contribute to other people?

To other people, it has to be. Purpose is outside of you. So when people go, all my purpose is to earn as much money as I can to feed my family. No, that's survival. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's wrong. Number two, you know, survival. And this is the thing when you. The whole world we live in, and this is my take on why we have so much chronic stress, is we're all in a constant state of fear. We haven't broken through survival because we think for us to be surviving, we need more money, we need more prestige, we need more all of that. Whereas actually, and this is again, you look at the people who are the happiest are typically the Buddhist monk who owns nothing, has nothing, is at one with themselves. Like the whole idea of atonement, at 1 ment, I am at one with myself. I mean, you said yesterday when you connected to that purpose statement that you've, you've got to. You felt at peace and at ease. And this is the thing, you know, who wouldn't want that?

Yeah. So, I mean, the great, just a bit of background. The great irony of this conversation is that I finally worked out my personal purpose or why. And it's around inclusivity, right. And I, I love.

Working to make life more inclusive. You know, it's something that's always spun my wheels, right? And then how do we bring that into the business of collective intelligence? And I've never been able to express that. And from that period, and that's another story to where we are now, is that then, you know, working out. Our purpose is to evolve people together to create A better world.

That's amazing.

That's our geek.

And that's the thing. I mean, the example I used last night is I'll be allowed to mention, you know, advertising from big companies. So Volvo at the minute, have a really cool advert and it's all about, you know, we've been collecting crash data for years and years and, you know, they are known as the safecar company, so you probably think it's pretty good data. We are sharing that data with everyone because we want more people to get home safely. That's purpose. Like, we're doing this for the betterment of as many people around us as we can. And there's no downside to it. That's purpose.

What's. What's interesting, interesting, Tim, is that when we crystallize that purpose, right, And a lot of people fed into this, right? And it was interesting because we've looked at purpose, we've looked at all sorts of flash words and shit, you know, and we go, oh, yeah, that looks good. Yeah, that's us. Right? But it didn't. It never touched the heart.

Yes.

And so when we came up with this and my mental, Keith Mason was superb at the final push with us, and he said, forget about the big words, your purpose will be a whole, will be some small words.

Right?

So our purpose is a number of small words. There's nothing flashing it, Right. And it is people evolving together to create a better world.

Yeah.

And since that's landed, I feel really calm. I don't worry about the cash flow so much. I don't. It's funny, it's just like that's our gig and that's what brings us together. But it's been hell getting there.

Yeah.

And you could have bloody helped me. You didn't.

Well, you didn't ring me, so that's fine.

Which I find. Which I find it ironic that we are. That's why, listening to you yesterday, I went, man, I want to get you, you know, down on this, in this. So this is part of what you're working with, with companies now to help them find their purpose. Yep, yep.

But it's. This is the thing, companies are but a group of individuals who are choosing to organize together for a shared goal. And so if you're going to go down the route of organizational purpose, it has to start with the individuals. If you're not already on purpose or in purpose or off purpose as the individual in a company, you can't have a collective purpose because you're just a group of people making Potentially meaningless platitudes. Yeah, another big word. Yeah.

So Tim, how do. And I'm mindful of time because Tim's got to actually get on a plane and go back to Christchurch at some stage very soon. And so, so this. Do you, so do you help individuals with purpose as well?

Yeah, you have to, like I say, if you're going to start the organizational. But the way.

No, I don't get this because. So individuals within a company. Yep. So there could be hundreds of them. Yep.

So the key, like if company wants to go on the organizational purpose journey, the owner or senior leader has to, has to be wanting to do this.

Right.

And if they're not, it's dead in the water.

Waste of time.

100% waste of time. So in that case, it would be okay. You're, you are a disengaged employee who wants to find out what they could be doing. That's it, that's an end. That's.

So I talked to Melissa Jenner a few weeks ago and she was saying that 67% of employees are disengaged at work. I mean, mate, that's crazy.

It's just insane, isn't it? Yeah, but it's the thing, you know, we talk about, well, why did people do that? Well, there's lots of reasons. You know, the societal pressures that, you know, just get a good job, you've got a good job. Like, why would you throw that away? Like, think of the money. Think of, like we're sent on this trajectory of chasing the wrong stuff that we think will make us happy. But it's proven time and time again that, you know, anything above US$70,000, no increase in happiness once your basic survival needs are met. Money does not. Yeah, it means you get to go to a better hotel or you get to go on a business class. You know, and once you've done that business class, then you want the level above that. You will never win it. Like, you'll never win the prestige or the, or the, or the trinketry battle. It's always someone with more money than you. You're never going to win that battle. But it's interesting what you said. It's that heart connection. Now one of my other theories is we, you know, the west again, this western democratized world, we have been so taken down the scientific, rational route and there's many good reasons why we've gone down there. And yet again, that's given us lots and lots of really great things. But when you are choosing your potential life partner or even Buying a house or buying a car, you don't necessarily make a rational decision. You make an emotional decision. You fall in love with the house that you buy. You don't. There will be some people that will make a spreadsheet and as a secondary thing, you might make a spreadsheet, oh, look, actually that needs a new roof and kind of we shouldn't do it. But even then a lot of people would still go and buy it. And this is the thing where in your life have you been taught to connect to your heart and soul? But I don't remember having that lesson at school. Like, nice. We're not taught it, but. But we are emotional, you know, and this is interesting. I have this for a while. I had this real. Can I use juxtaposition? There you go. Another big. We'll play big word bingo.

Yes. Yes.

You know, I've been taught to sell and do marketing. Like, that's my. It's all about influence. It's all about how do you, how do you persuade someone to do something the way you want to do it. And so.

How people's mind work. And it's, it's a well known idea in sales and marketing. People buy on emotion, they defend on logic. But we know that, you know, I would argue that's how Trump won. I'll make America great again. I'm not going to tell you what great is. You can transpose that, but emotionally, Whoa. Yeah. Who doesn't want to be great? Like, that's an emotional punch to the heart.

And I remember some good shit behind back then and I want that again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Even though that thing that you had might have actually been really shit.

Yeah.

But you can't remember that because rose tinted glasses, you always think the past is better than what you've currently got. So genius. And this is the thing like. And again, part of the purpose stuff is, you know, connecting to who you really are. What, what do you really think and feel? And what's really interesting, you look at the top five regrets of the dying. The number one. One number one regret of the dying. I wish I'd lived a life true to myself, not the life that others wish for me. What does that say? And we wonder why people are disengaged at work.

Yeah.

You know, then one of the other ones. I wish I'd left myself be happier. I wish I'd express my emotions. I wish I'd connect, stay connected with friends and family. And I wish I'd work less.

It's.

It's all there the evidence is all there.

Okay, so, Tim, on that note. And look, we could. You're an interesting person. We could talk on for forever.

But.

You'Ve got to complain.

You've got to catch a plane.

Tom, how do people find you Growgood Co? If you can't find me on the Internet? The Internet's broken. That's my General theory, really. LinkedIn, Facebook, you're everywhere. Yeah, I just spam the Internet.

Okay.

Tim Jones, growgood Co.

Okay. And you can help companies find their purpose and. Which is going to help people be more engaged.

Yep.

Companies will operate better if you just.

Want to listen to it on the rational side, you'll be more engaged. More productivity, like more money. Yeah, great. But you'll also have a bunch of enlightened, connected humans that go and do great things in the world.

Who would want that?

Yeah. Crazy idea.

Tim, thank you so much. This has been. This has been fabulous, and I've enjoyed having you here more than I thought I would actually, you know, could I.

Have that as a testimony?

Well, yeah, because it's just. I mean, you're a fun guy, but you've, You've. Yesterday was enlightening for me because you've read this, you've. There's a bit more depth there than I thought, mate. And it's. I. I've really enjoyed it. So.

Good luck with this journey and I hope people reach out to you and use your skills.

Thank you.

Cool. Okay, mate, thank you.

You've just been listening to an episode of Stuff that Matters now, brought to you by Collective Intelligence. I hope you enjoyed listening to the fun stuff, the rugged stuff, and the complete stuff up that have helped this particular Collective Intelligence member evolve while making the world a better place. Do check out our Stuff that Matters now podcast series on your favorite podcast provider, or Visit our website, www.colliveintelligence.co.nz to get links to new episodes. Contact us if you want to learn more about how we can help you evolve yourself and others. Thanks for listening.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening in to my podcast. As I say, I'd love to know where you are on your journey in pursuit of purpose. And if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try and answer for you or people you'd like me to interview on this podcast, please do let me know through a message or a comment. Also, do connect with me on other social media platforms. You'll find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, and on YouTube. For more information about me and what I offer through my business. Grow Good. You can also go find me at www.growgood.co. that's GROWGOOD CO. If you want to get in contact with me, my email is really easy. Tim at Growgood Co. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, go well and keep on pursuing your purpose.