#28 Talking About Seeds And Life With Steven Moe

Foreign.

Welcome to Purpose Fuel Performance with me, your host, Tim Jones, the grow good guy.

Well, kia ora, and welcome to, I guess an updated version of what I was running as my PfP TV live on LinkedIn, which I'm now no longer doing. So we're doing zoom calls, which we're clearly recording. And with me for this, I have Stephen Mo. Stephen and I know each other relatively well. We met a few years ago, which we'll unpack shortly. But for those of people who are living under an Internet rock and haven't been listening to a podcast for the last two or three years. Stephen Mo. Who are you?

Oh, that's great. Well, first, thanks so much for letting me join your podcast. This is awesome. I've been waiting for the invite.

I know, I feel really bad. It.

When's it coming? When's it coming? Because people, people may or may not know, but I do a podcast called Seeds, and you were guest number two on that episode. And I was reflecting and thinking, you've been on four times on Seeds since then. I don't know if you realize, you're.

Like, that's just greedy.

You're getting into the most appearances. So this is awesome. Yeah. So the first thing, when people hear me talk, they hear an accent. So, um, it's good to just roll back the years and explain. I actually grew up in New Zealand. My dad has an unusual career. He's a marine biologist. And so in the early 1980s, he was brought over to help with the salmon industry, which was a brand new field, which is aquaculture, raising salmon and then exporting it to Japan, America, all over the world. So I came to New ZEALAND Basically about 1983, 84. I was 7 years old. And so that was kind of my beginnings of New Zealand was way back as a child. So I have an accent, but I'm one of those people that once you scratch below the surface, you find that actually my Turanga Wai Wai, where I feel most connected is here in New Zealand and specifically here in Christchurch.

Nice. Yeah, I get that when I go back to the UK or if I speak to people from the uk, like, oh, you've got such a crazy accent. And then here people go, where are you from? So you kind of feel like you're cultural no man's land at the best of times. So you're here now, but tell us a little about, like, what do you do these days? Like, who are you? What do you do? I know what you do. But then we're people who don't know. So, yeah. What's your day to day life about?

Well, these days I think my career has taken interesting paths in similar ways to yours in some ways, I think.

So I think that's fair to say.

I, I like to think of myself as a catalyst for impact. So I'm not giving anything away there in terms of a traditional title, you know, like a job description. But I'm happy to tell people that the, basically the role is a lawyer. So whenever I say that, you have to be careful. Because he said the L word. That's right. So that's why you're a nice lawyer.

You're a lawyer for good. You're not like an ambulance chasing. Yeah, you know, awful lawyer.

That's right. That's my aim. I'm glad that it's coming across that way.

It certainly is.

But I think it's important to frame the conversation because I grew up in Christchurch. I studied at Canterbury and then I got a job at a very big firm in Wellington called Russell McVeigh. So people are aware of the legal industry will know Russell McVeigh because it's quite. At the time it was the biggest law firm in New Zealand. So I kind of moved into this, you know, prestigious graduate big firm culture and really found, I guess that it didn't resonate with me as, as to who I was. But that was just the beginnings of the murmurings of what would come later. Because the good thing of moving to Wellington is that my. I met my wife Ellie and she's from the uk, so we thought actually, wouldn't it be cool to be in Europe for a little while? So we left Welling after three years and I worked at an international law firm for about 12 years. And this is a firm that had about 4,000 lawyers in 55 offices. And I was in the M and a corporate team. So big mergers and acquisitions. I think the biggest deal I helped with was a 2 billion pound IPO of a massive company. You know, so it's, it's. The scale of things was quite big, but it was really about six years ago and I was having a revelation that, you know, what am I here for? You know, the big questions, how am I using my life, my time? How could I possibly take the skills and everything that I've learned up to this point and then reinterpret it in a new way for the future? So when we came back to Christchurch in 2016, um, I really wanted to give a go at reinventing who I was and who my career was. And that's the beauty of moving country. Sometimes you can kind of start fresh. So I started getting into social enterprise and so I guess I would be the leading social enterprise lawyer in New Zealand now. And with that comes the flip side of knowing about charities, not for profits as well. So that's why I talk about being impact driven or purpose driven. So it's kind of a broad umbrella. But it then covers, you know, companies that are for purpose as well as charities that are traditional, you know, not for profits.

Nice.

So what was it that, like, why law? What was it that. Because I find quite particularly, you know, with your. With your dad's background, it's quite common that people who do. Who are practicing law, there's at least one parent who did law, if not there's a grandparent as well who did law. And it's kind of like it seems like doctors, accountants, lawyers and sports people. There is this kind of genetic lineage or, you know, ancestry that put some pressure on being a lawyer. But was there, was there that external pressure or was it just. You like the idea of being a lawyer? Yeah. Well, talk to us about that.

Yeah, for me, there's only one other lawyer that I know of in my family history. So my grandfather was. He wasn't a practicing lawyer, he was actually an academic in Panama of all places. So he taught the law. But I didn't have a direct relationship with him like he was living in Panama, my mother was born in Panama. So for me it wasn't so much having a direct connection of another lawyer, it was always, for me, I viewed the law and having the degree as being like a key that would open doors. So that was the most important thing was how could I get a qualification? And in this case it was the law that would then open doors of opportunities. And I think the law is actually quite a good key because even if you don't become a lawyer, it's taught you a certain way of thinking, quite logical way of thinking. So that was my mindset for why I ended up studying law. And then it's fortunate that I've now been able to bring together my own spirit, if you like, or who I am as a person and have it meld nicely with being a lawyer who's about impact and helping people get their legal structures right.

Nice.

Yeah, so that's a bit of that origin story, if you like.

Because. Yeah, I guess like fast forward then to your. Because you were working, you work in the uk but you also spent a bit of time in Japan, is that right? Doing some. Was it you were in Japan, was that directly before you came to New Zealand?

No, we were in Sydney just before returning to New Zealand and I was in Tokyo before that. So, yeah, I've lived in six different countries for more than a year. So even for me it gets confusing.

Try to remember the order.

Yeah, yeah. So I lived in Chile as a child, so I learned Spanish in Chile. And then when I was 20, I moved to Japan and taught English for a year, so I learned Japanese while I was there. So I've had a quite a multicultural background as well, which I think shapes who you are as a person in terms of maybe having a bit of empathy with different experiences and life journeys. You know, if you've, if you've been a fish out of water and you don't speak the language, you're probably going to have a different mindset.

Yeah, I think that particularly, I think there's yourself and Michelle Sharp that really sort of echoes true where you've had that experience of being brought up or having experience of other cultures, just people experience. Yeah. Does give you that a real empathetic lens on what's happening in other people's lives, but. So you sort of mentioned that you felt like law was a key. Was there like pressure, though, to go to university? Full stop. Was that because your parents were academic? We got this academic. Certainly Grandfather was there because that's often a key sort of sliding door moment for people like, I know it was for me, the school I went to, it wasn't, you know, do you want to go to university or not? It was, which universities are you applying for, Timothy? Because boys from this school go to university and whilst I had an amazing time and probably could have studied a little bit harder, and I'm really grateful for the degree in history that I have because again, it taught me a lot of stuff. As an 18 year old boy, would I actually have wanted to go to university? Probably not. And where would that have taken me? Who knows? But yeah, was there, because that's quite often on people's kind of life journey. That's, that's a big sliding door moment. Is that teenage period. You know, do I go and get an apprenticeship, do I go and get a job or do I go to go and do further education? So what. Yeah. What was that like for you?

I think for me I've always enjoyed reading, writing, you know, debating that type of thing. So I've always had a kind of an academic bent. But so all through high school I did history and English and those sorts of people sometimes End up doing law because there's lots of reading and writing. And so I think for me, yeah, I mean, my mother, she did a degree, she ended up doing a year at the Sorbonne University in Paris. And my dad, he did his biology degree. So definitely education was always seen as an important part of, you know, like it probably was an expectation, I guess, but maybe like you, it was sort of where, you know, where are you going to go rather than are you going to go? Yeah, but I think for me it probably was the right decision at that time, I think. I think I learned a lot and the discipline of study, you know, and being able to express yourself logically in the written word and reading is quite good. I would say after three years I was quite tired. And because the law degree is a five year degree, I actually did a Bachelor of Arts as well. And my degree was in history and political science. So five years is quite a long time to be studying. So after three years, this is when the Nagano Olympics were happening in Japan. And I got this opportunity to go one of those random things where kind of a friend of a friend had heard of an opportunity to go and work at a ski resort in Japan. And so I did that for three months and I was based in Nagano or Niigata and then ended up staying for another nine months. But that to me was the sliding door moment. It wasn't the going to university, it was the decision not to finish my degree and then do something. Because I remember really distinctly somebody who I respected saying, you really need to finish your degree, then go and have overseas experience. You need to get into a job, start paying down a mortgage. This is the way things happen. And another friend who actually was from Chile, we were up hiking in Lake Daniels, up in the Lewis Pass, and he said to me, look, you're 21 years old, this is your moment. If you choose not to go to Japan, they're going to pay for your airfare, they're going to pay you to work at a ski resort. You can ski every day.

Yeah.

And you know, like, what if you don't embrace this? What is that saying about your attitude to life as well? He didn't say it that words, but it was, that was what the essence was. So I'm really glad that I grasped hold of that way of looking at it, which is basically when I'm 95, will I regret not doing this? And I think if I had not gone to Japan, I would have had regret. And of course the story goes like this. I learned more in that year on my own in Japan teaching English than I did three years at university, you know, and I think the Japanese culture, the way of being seeped into me in a way that is really hard to explain unless you've lived in Japan.

Yeah.

If you have a Japanese connection, people who've been there know what I'm talking about. It gets into your blood and there is a way of expressing yourself and being and how you relate to people. So I think for me the sliding door moment was the decision not to finish my degree, jump into a job, but instead to take a year out, go to Japan and teach English.

Nice. Which I mean takes a bit of courage, but I guess it's also, it's logical because the degree will always be there. I mean there's some people go back in their 40s or 50s to finish off that one paper that they need to finish off. So I guess it's like, yeah, I'm a firm believer in the same. It's. And I think it's well documented that we regret the things we didn't do more than we regret the things that we did do, even if the thing we did do didn't work out as we'd hoped. So, yeah, I guess life lessons for people listening would be, yeah, take, seize the day, take the opportunity, particularly a really great one like that. Yeah.

Exactly. And the key for me is this. It's actually, it puts life in perspective. If you think from the age of 90 or 95, like assuming that we have the good fortune to live that long, you know, what will you look back on and maybe regret? And I talk about this a lot with entrepreneurs or people who are thinking of starting their own thing and they're like, oh, but I've got the security of this job, but I really, really want to do this other thing. And it's been weighing on me and I'm not sure what I should do. It's like, talk to your 75 year old self. What are they going to tell you? They're probably going to tell you, dive in, make mistakes, learn from it. You know, embrace life. Rather than play it safe, just keep what you've got. So, and I think it's important to do that early in life if you can. Because if I reflect now, I've now made a number of decisions which you would look at and you'd go, why would you do that? So Russell McVeigh is a really respected law firm. Why would you leave that to go to London? Okay, well that sort of makes sense. I can explain that. But why would you leave there to go to Tokyo and then to Sydney? Like, every time I've had to reinvent my career and it's been about establishing myself, like, every three or four years. But if you view it from the mindset of this person is focused on experiences rather than possessions, and living in Japan with my wife, having a baby born there, those are things that are not capable of being bought.

Experience over possessions. That would be my sort of message.

I guess, because it's a pretty standard formula that you get into a law firm, you work your way up, and one day you make partner. And it's not uncommon that you might be in the same law firm for decades or you might shift between senior associate to get a partnership in a different firm or something. But so, yeah, it's kind of a bit. I mean, you are a pretty counterculture lawyer. Out of all the lawyers I know. You know, you're definitely. I mean, you have your own podcast. How many lawyers have their own podcasts where they talk about people doing good in the world? I don't think you must be the only one, if not the first, surely.

I'd like to think so. I'll take it as a compliment as well.

You need to fact check that one. But I'd be pretty confident. But, yeah, I think that's. There's something else that really sits there for me. Like that curiosity piece. Like, you. You had this compulsion that, like, something's calling me. I need to go and check that. And the more I've been digging into Jungian psychology, like Carl Jung, he's one of his theories, is curiosity is the best potential version of you calling yourself towards it. And so the thing that you're curious about, that the business that you want to start or the place that you want to go to.

It'S calling you there for a reason. And I think the other part of that is like, curiosity in some ways is an evolutionary nightmare because, oh, I wonder what's on the edge of that cliff. And you get to the edge of the cliff and you fall off it. The fact that we have curiosity and that we have that as an ability that is linked to a depth in us that we maybe don't understand. Like, why specifically am I curious about that thing? That's some really, really cool stuff that I don't think anyone really understand. Well, we don't really know what consciousness is, full stop. So, yeah, I think that's. That's a real. When I'm working with people on their purpose, that's like things like what, What. What are you curious about? Because that is something that you do not understand is calling you towards it. So I think that's a really great.

Life lesson, and I agree completely. And I actually try to model the use of the word curious. I'm not sure if you do this consciously as well, but maybe this is enc to you. In my podcast, if you listen to it, you'll hear me quite often phrase things like I'm just curious, and then I'll ask the question. And the reason I'm using that terminology is I'm trying to model the concept that we can all be curious about the person that we're talking to, the situation that we're facing, whatever it is, if we can bring curiosity as the lens through which we see the world, it's going to be a much richer and deeper experience. So I think that I love the word curious. And on the seeds, that's the podcast, the website I think I have there at the front, sort of be curious, you know, let's be curious. I think it's such a key to unlocking things and related to that. So just riffing off of that. The thing that I've learned is that something my mother told me is that every person has an interesting story, and if you don't think they're interesting, that's your fault.

Yes.

Because you haven't asked the right questions yet. So. So it ties in with that idea of being curious. But how often have you met someone and you think this person is not very interesting or that, you know, they're, you know, frankly, I'd rather go and get another drink, but actually, if that's. That's on you, you need to be asking the right questions because there will be something that they are an expert in or some experience that you can learn from. And it's the mindset of coming to every conversation with the curiosity.

Totally agree. And I think for me, it's our old mate Socrates, or Socrates, as normal people like to call him. You know, the only thing that I know is that I know nothing. And I think if more people entered into conversations with the. With the idea that everything that you know is false and be curious enough to engage with another human to understand their point of view and their life experience. You know, I think we solve a whole lot of the social problems that we see in the world. And people just shouting at each other on the Internet, it's like, well, what if you're both right? Whoa, what a crazy idea. And the only way you do that is through Good dialogue and asking great questions. I think that's something that I'm really grateful that, you know, being a sales guy for so many years, learning how to ask great questions at the right time is what you pay to do. Um, and I think it's, it's really underutilized and I guess it's the same for a lawyer really, isn't it? You're, you're paid to know what question to ask at the right time, to elicit the right information, to get the right result. There's lots of quite a few similarities in that regard. Yeah, yeah.

But the interesting thing on that part, and I'm sure you find this as well, is that, you know, we're given two ears and one mouth. You have to, you have to be able to listen, truly listen to people, to then be curious to ask the question. And I think very often, particularly in western individualistic culture, we like to talk about ourselves a lot, which is fine, but we also don't listen very well anymore. And particularly I think as social media, you know, like it used to be a thing like a ted talk is 18 minutes, like that was the attention span. But these days I'm noticing that the videos are getting smaller and smaller. You know, like here's a three minute clip or here's a 30 second teaser, you know, and it's like our ability to focus is being reduced even as we are overwhelmed with a tidal wave of information and we can access so much more than we could in the past, but we can't really focus in and really get curious and then ask the good questions. So I guess the encouragement there is, you know, listen, really absorb and then ask the question.

Yeah, Pause, reflect, then get stuck in instead of having your question pre framed. Yeah, no, all very good. Although I guess the counter that I was listening to one of the Joe Rogan podcasts today, luckily he speaks quite slowly. Maybe it's all the weed that he ingests, but I can now tolerate listening. I can, I can comprehend listening to him at triple speed on Spotify. So I can get through a three hour podcast on a 60 minute walk. So that's, that's quite good. But yes, it's like you got like Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan going with the, that expanded content. But I think it's fair to say in general, I mean, I noticed in the training that I deliver to companies, a 90 minute training session is pretty much what I do because even at half day sessions you see that you're losing people because they're tired. That They've got one aisle. I haven't checked Facebook for 20 minutes. I really am itching to get to my phone. I remember when I was doing, you know, as an employee, you'd be sent on two day training courses. I just don't think that people could handle that anymore. Two days of just sitting in a room, having to be engaged. Yeah. It's insane how we've. I guess it's like we're swamped with information and staff for wisdom though, isn't it? It's that classic. We've got everything at our fingertips on this little device. We can get the answer to pretty much any question in the world, yet we seem to be not as smart for it, ironically.

Yeah, yeah. It is ironic that that loneliness is spiking at the moment that we could connect. You know, it's. It's like what's. But I think that the reality is that a lot of social media and things, I mean, I'm not saying anything new. It's very superficial. Right. There's not the true connections that there used to be maybe where you would go and you would sit with someone and be with them for an hour or two hours, you know, and have a drink or have lunch or whatever. And. Whereas the, you know, the checking on Instagram and hitting like, or it's, it's, it's a connection, but it's not the level of depth. Um, I'm interested that you listen fast on podcasts as well, because I listen as fast as I can as well. So I guess both of us like to absorb as much as we can, but that's how I get through. A lot of the content is, is just put it to double speed. I. Even if I'm listening back to my podcast, I'll put it on double speed. So I'm kind of used to my own voice now, talking really fast.

There's probably some school where you can go to, to, to have your voice so that we can record a podcast at a level that means other people could listen at double speed because some people's interviews are just too quick and you can't. Yeah, you can't double spin it. But this is the thing. Like, I've got. So we've got like a home Spotify account, so we share that. And so I'll be out for a walk in the morning listening to a podcast and then my daughter will put Spotify on in the bathroom while she's having a bath. So I lose it. So. But I've got, I think I've got 46 podcast episodes on my list on Spotify, but on YouTube, I'll also go and find podcasts and interviews on YouTube. I've got 293 videos listed in my watch later list range and they range in time from 40 minutes to. Some of them are like four hours. That's why I kind of feel like I have, because every time I listen to one of these videos, because I normally listen to the YouTube video whilst I'm walking, just leave it on in my, in my pocket. Typically I'll listen to that interview and they'll reference three other people that I've not heard of and I'll immediately go and search them and add three of their videos to my watch list. And I think that's the thing, like there's so much that you could learn that it's. You're never going to run out of podcasts or videos to watch. So that I think that's why I like to listen at triple speed. It's like I've, you know, I'm not getting any younger. I've only got, what, maybe 40 more years to listen to as many podcasts as I can in my 60 minute walking window in the morning.

Yeah, and then it's a balance, isn't it? Because at some point you actually just need to turn it all off and go sit under a tree and watch a butterfly land on a flower. There's this balancing between, yes, the media is there, the saturation, the intense content, but also I think we're getting poorer at being still and calming. And, you know, the meditation is kind of a word that's getting more popular now. But, you know, it's, it's something that I think we're losing sight of. Whereas past generations, there probably was more of an understanding of just, you know, slow down and not feeling the need to check Facebook or, you know, the latest, whatever it is that's showing up.

There's this two parts that I've got a big thing written on the bottom of my screen here that says it's got consume with a line through it and it's got create underneath it. Because it's like when you're. We're both. Well, you're certainly ahead of me in terms of your levels of content creation. But it's easy to fall into the trap of I just want to learn one more thing. I want to learn one more thing before I put my spin on it or before I create this thing. But yeah, just the last sort of week of lockdown here, I kind of went through a Real phase where actually no, stop listening and just draw the model. Put the thing together that you've been ruminating on. I think the other word that I think is an interesting word is contemplate, which if I think I'm correct in understanding is, you know, contemple is to go into the temple and be quiet and ruminate as opposed to sort of meditate, which is more around. Get everything out of your head, try and clear everything. And I think there's, there's room in life for both. You know, have, have try and have some absolute quiet, watch the butterfly, try and think of nothing but equally stuff that you are learning. At some point you have to kind of sit down and ruminate it and digest it and contemplate it and go, what does that mean? Is that true? Do I believe that? Is that a thing for me or. Yeah. And then how do I. Particularly for me, I think where I'm trying to. You're still complex information around purpose and meaning in life and, you know, translate that to people. There's some pretty random ideas out there that you've got to try and distill and try and work out. How do you. Yeah. Recreate that in a, in a, in an easy to understand manner. So, yeah.

Yeah. The biggest tool that I found is really helpful and it may help you is realizing that that creative side of things, you know, the actual. So you, you've downloaded the hundred hours of YouTube videos or you've become an expert or, you know, you' got a lot of information. It's giving yourself permission not to be perfect when you then outwork it. And what I mean by that is sometimes as a person who tends to like to get things right, you know, I want it to be really high standard. I want it to be a good quality. I don't want noises in the background of my podcast. You know, like it's all little stuff, but it's a symptom of who I am. So I could get gridlocked by the fear that this isn't perfect, what I'm creating. You know, this article that I'm writing, it could be better. And so the way that I've gotten over that is there's different expressions of this, but it's, it's. I basically call it the 8020 rule.

Yep.

Which is, which is, in my interpretation of that is that if you put in 20% of the work, you'll get 80% of the product. Right. And then it's the last bits that take up 80% of the time. But are actually only worth 20%. So it's like, give it your best, do everything you can, but at some point, realize it doesn't have to be perfect. It is what it is. Nobody else knows what it is. Could have been right, and then draw a line under it. And there's. One of my favorite authors is Annie Dillard. So she won the Pulitzer Prize for a book called Pilgrim at Tinker Creek. And it came out in the mid-1970s. And what she said is this. The urgency is spend it all, say it now. Don't save something thinking it's going to be perfect for that book or that article or that other thing that you're working on. Use it right now. And she says it's like a well of water. As you use the creative content, more will come up. But as soon as you stop using.

Stymies you, and then you get stuck. So don't be afraid to take the creative content and use it up. Just spill it all out now, because more will come and then the creativity can continue to flow.

That's what I definitely needed to hear that because I've got like a list, a notes thing on my phone. It's got 97 notes, separate notes, and it's like post and article ideas. And again, this last couple of weeks of like, no, stop consuming, just get creating. I've just started to like the things that have been in my head. I've just come straight home and I've written a LinkedIn post about it, or I've sent an email out to my email list and it's like, you just do it. But it definitely feels better for doing it because it's like, well, what good is it sitting here on my phone when it could be an idea that someone needs to hear today? So, yeah, definitely good advice.

And the example that I can give is actually one that relates to you because the other day I posted something on on Monday, so we're recording this on a Friday. And I posted on Monday something I did a personality test, a free personality test, 16 personalities. And I said, what do people in my network think? You know? And Carl Davidson wrote, shame on you, Stephen Mo. Basically, personality tests are not accurate is what he was saying. Yeah, yeah, it's all good. But it got me thinking, like, yeah, how much do we take for granted in terms of myths about leadership, myths about company culture? What do we do? You know, like, personality test is great because companies can tick boxes that they got future employees to do a test, but how accurate are they really? It's like, we've Bought into this. You know, this is a part of it. So anyway, that was the Monday, and then I. He posted something, and then I reached out to you and Michael and Sina and Elle as people who I respect and have different perspectives, and said, hey, would you do a panel with me? Um, so that was the Tuesday, I think, and by Wednesday, we'd set a day and a time. And that's happening as we're recording, you know, 10 days from now.

Yeah.

And we're just going to talk about leadership myths and have a zoom call. And there's like 30 people have signed up to watch us talk about this. So the point is, you just move quickly. If you get an idea, just go for it, do it. Don't delay and don't think. Yeah, maybe in October I'll do that.

You know, momentum. It's the key. Yeah, super cool. Going back.

Yeah.

Yes, I go for it.

Your questions are great, and I just want to reverse it round a little bit. I'm just curious.

You hijacking podcast?

No, no. Well, hopefully we get to use this on mine as well. But I'm just thinking when you go out and you are giving the training, you know, like you're going into a room of people that you haven't met before.

Yep.

How do you. How do you read the room in terms of the vibe and the energy level? Because as a facilitator, as somebody presenting, there's quite a lot of pressure actually, you know, to. To bring that energy to the room. And some rooms are going to be full of people maybe who've been told they have to be there.

Some are favorite. My favorite kind.

How do you. How do you know what type of room it's going to be? And then how do you adapt or what's your opening ways to address that sort of thing?

Great questions.

Yeah. I think it's one of my skills, I think, is that ability to read a room. I think that is one of my kind of innate abilities. Is that kind of almost like Spidey sense? Yeah. I'm trying to think. There's a proper word for it. Intuition. That's the word. I think I'm pretty intuitive. Like, I can read the room. And I think that's partly why I ended up in a sales role, is because that's a really useful skill. You need to be able to. You know, I used to sell stuff to orthopedic surgeons, and you'd occasionally be waiting for them all day to meet them between procedures in the hospital to go and take them for a Coffee to try and have a sales conversation with them. And you'd have to be really good at reading them as they came into the tea room to kind of go, this guy looks like he hasn't slept for a week. It's clearly been a bad day of operating. He's running late. The last thing he wants to do now is talk to me probably. So I think that's an innate skill that great salespeople need to have. Is he. But it's like, I always refer to it as like he's asking your dad for the car keys. You know, dad's come home from work. You need to be able to read the room. Is he in a good mood, medium mood, or is he absolutely livid? He's had the worst day ever. It's like now's, you know, pick your time to ask for the car keys. So definitely feel like I have that as a skill. Yeah. In terms of like the one, the word that is consistently used in feedback from when I've run events is energy. And, you know, that's kind of part of what I'm about as the grow good guy or just me in general is I just try and bring unbounded amounts of energy into a room which is kind of half as almost half of what people are paying for from a training event is. I was listening to, I think it was, I think it was Scott Barry Kaufman's podcast. He's like, he runs the psychology podcast that's really good if you're into your brain stuff. And he interviewed these two ladies who, they'd been looking into the use of humor and like kind of what is comedy and what is humor within a broader environment than just comedy. And they said in their lectures, because they're teaching at a university in the US in their lectures they try and get at least like two to three laughs into a lecture because they basically said it's the number of times that the average employee laughs at work in the week is maybe once all week. So they basically said if you can make them laugh, you've given them a better day than they had at work. And that's what I typically try and start is I use a lot of music. So when people are coming into the room, there's some high energy, positive music. I'll try and interact with a couple of people independently as like, there's always a few people come early. It's like, hey, how are you? Like, what's your name? Da da da da. Yes. Get a bit of music. Dad jokes always work really, really well. Um, you know, a couple of icebreakers normally try and take the piss out of myself because it's kind of like it's, it's fair game. Like I'm, I'm 6 foot 415, 20 kilos at the front. I am fair game. You can make fun of me, you can, you know, pick me up for making mistakes and what have you. Um, but yeah, all of that definitely helps to kind of raise the energy levels. But you still. I remember the one room, this is when I was working for a different company. I was, I was employed as a trainer and the room was filled with basically middle aged white dudes who were all from very conservative backgrounds. And they were all just sat there like this and I was like, okay. And 15, 20 minutes in, I was asking questions and there was just nothing from the room. And it's like this is a half day program and I see, I reckon we're going to be done in 90 minutes because I'm relying on the interaction from the room to fill. Yeah, sometimes you just got to know that you're, it's not going to be a great day. But you, you, you know, I guess it's like any performing artist. You just have to bring your A game and hope that you can bring people up a little bit. I mean typically when, when people, when it's an in house event and a company has paid for the event, typically there's generally a sense of buy it and it's, it's maybe part of a, a program or a broader piece of work or it's an off site day. The harder ones are when it's a public event and a company might have sent some of their employees because they think they need to learn this stuff and those are the hardest ones. And for those ones, I will literally say. Let me guess, many of you in this room have been told to come here and you don't necessarily want to be here, but hey, we're all here now. So I think if you just front foot it with a bit of humor and then put some energy around it, you can, I can turn most rounds upside down, even 20 minutes.

Yeah, that's awesome. I like that answer. And it does often come back to your, your energy level because I think if you can project energy, even if they then reflect 50% of it back, it's going to be a much higher level. And I think that's a key that lots of presenters and facilitators haven't yet learned. So this might be a learning for some people is if you're at the front, you've got to up your game in terms of your, your level. Um, our mutual friend Michael Philpot was really good at teaching me this. And he's just a guru when it comes to speaking and things. So shout out to him. But you know that you bring the energy level and, and you set the tone and that's really important to do right from the beginning. And like you say, trying to have some sort of humor at the start or some sort of a joke as well. And it's. Yeah, definitely not a. Something that is natural, you know, Like, I think it does take practice. I'm doing a lot with the Institute of Directors to facilitate the legal portion of their company director course. So this is a week long course. It's one of the premier courses in, in New Zealand. It's amazing. And I, I'm there for four hours talking about legal things. Frankly speaking, it's probably not the most exciting part. Um, but the way I walk in and I try to up the energy level of the room and I say, hey everyone, I want you to know that the next four hours are the best part of this course, you know, and just, and by framing it because then they smile and like they weren't. They're not really looking forward to the legal part, honestly, you know, like. But if we, if we're just open about it and we have a little laugh at the start, it's like, okay, now we can continue. So, yeah, that's really good.

And yeah, Michael taught me everything that I know in terms of how to do my facilitation yet. So he's definitely been a big part in my. Well, what I believe has been some success over the last few years in terms of delivery of content that, yeah, it's memorable, but it's also, it's a fun, it's a fun session. I was watching Matilda the movie with my daughter last night and there's that. Oh yeah, there's a scene in the classroom where they have to kind of, you know, move everything when. What's her name? Mrs. Trunchbull. Yeah, when she's got to, you know, move all the happy stuff. It says if, if you're, if you're having fun, you're not learning. It's like it's the complete opposite. You know, clearly that's why Roald Dahl or the producers had it in there. It's like, if you're having fun, you know, it's all. I guess it kind of relies on a bit of neuro. Linguistic. Neuro linguistic. Programming and a bit of sort of Maslow's, you know, peak. Peak experiences. If you're having a great experience and, you know, using the music, I use lots of, you know, bright visuals on my slide decks, getting people playing games. You know, it's all intended to make it a peak experience that you kind of go, actually, that was pretty cool. And, you know, if they remember the two or three key things that they need to remember, then happy days.

But, yeah, and I think the key thing, I mean, it's great to chat with you because it's reminding me that there is this intentionality about it. Like, people assume that the great facilitators stood up, that they just. They're just naturally good at this. Right. But it's all, you know, you have to practice this stuff. You have to think about it. Those visuals didn't just drop into your PowerPoint, like, you had to actually put the effort in. And the thing I'm doing more and more whenever I can and I'm speaking is I try to bring some visual tool to represent what I'm talking about, like a prop, basically. But it might be an avocado. And I say, you know, here's an avocado. Doesn't it look delicious? We could make, you know, toast. We could put some on it. It could be guacamole. The true potential of this avocado is the beautiful food it is. Wait a minute. Is it the true potential? What's inside the avocado? There's a seed, there's a tree. There's potentially thousands of other avocados. But by having. By bringing the physical object, it. It makes it grounded in kind of reality rather than just sort of words that roll off the tongue.

Yep. No, totally. No. It's all good stuff. Yeah. And that's a big thing for me. Like, I will. I will agonize over one slide, and I will have three different images that I'm looking at going.

The colors are a bit brighter on that one, but this one fits the slide better. And then literally, for each slide, there'll be a song. And again, I will spend maybe an hour on one slide researching. Like, I'll Google. I'll, like. I don't know, like, I found one song. It's actually called the Gratitude Song. It's like I was looking for a song to depict gratitude for a slide about, hey, you know, reflect on what are three to five things you're grateful for. But there is a song called the Gratitude Song. But, you know, that probably took me an hour of sourcing to find a song that had the word gratitude either in the lyrics or in the title. And then there might be three or four songs and then you've got to try and pick the one. Okay, this one has some swearing so probably don't want that one. This one's a bit too down tempo or this one's got a bit, you know, it's a bit angry or it's by a band that, you know, no one knows. So yeah, all of this stuff. But the key thing I have to keep in the back of my mind is the, the people you were presenting to have no idea what you were going to present anyway. So it's all, it's all in my head. But I want to create the best experience I can and get the best. So yeah, typically after creating and then delivering a session, I am wiped out. Like people kind of go, oh teachers, they're so lazy. It's like you go and deliver training content to a group of people for 90 minutes or a half day and actually put some effort into it and you'll. I totally understand why they date long holidays. I need a long holiday after a couple of weeks of big delivery.

Yeah, yeah, well that, that four hour one that I mentioned. Like I'll. I'll feel pretty wiped out at the end of four hours of presenting. Like it's. Yeah, it's an energy level that's required that it's not just a normal reserves you're giving out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But then the fun part, you know, thinking of the fun side is you're always. I'm. At least I am. You probably are as well. You're always thinking about the props that you could use or the illustrations and you're looking for stories. And I just got something that was really fun and I haven't got it yet but it's an old fashioned typewriter and I think that's going to be an amazing tool to use. I don't know what I'm going to use it for yet, but I couldn't resist buying this typewriter because I love the idea that in 1930 when it was made it was like the premier technology. The way to communicate was a typewriter.

There's nothing better than this.

Yeah, exactly. And you physically push a key and an ink mark goes on a piece of paper and I haven't worked out what the illustration is going to be but I know it's going to be good because it's like such great material. You know this hundred year old thing that's a piece of technology from that long ago, and we can still use it as well. So that's cool.

And it's like something that, you know, you sort of mentioned earlier, like, you know, that. That spirit that was kind of within you that wanted to stop doing, like, the M A stuff and the big corporate law stuff, but it's kind of like.

Some of those really historic buildings have that. That energy in them, you know, because they've witnessed so much stuff and there's been so much happen within them and good and bad. And it's kind of curious, like, you know, the energy that might be stored in your typewriter, you know, what. What were. What were the documents that were written on that in the 1930s? I mean, there could have been some really powerful stuff written on it. So it's like. Yeah, I think that's quite interesting. Again, it's that kind of Jungian sort of collective consciousness. You know, we're all sort of connected. There's. There's stuff out there, energy levels that we don't understand. Yeah, interesting.

There's so much we don't understand. And I think the more that, as, you know, the more you dive into it, the more you realize how little we know. And, yeah, the reality is the human mind and how we operate and what have been our influences and consciousness. And, like, there's so much. There's a huge, obviously huge amount of wisdom that I think we've completely not been embracing as well from a Western perspective, where our mentality growing up in the west has been, you know, we've got it together. You should come to Disneyland.

Yeah, queue for half a day.

But the reality is that if you look to indigenous ways of being and doing things, you know, and here in our backyard, to our Mori, there's amazing concepts there of kaitiakitanga, stewardship, guardianship, looking for the next generation, Mana Kitanga, you know, looking after each other, welcoming strangers in huge amounts that we can learn. And, you know, this is the beauty of being alive, though, right? We're not stuck, we're not static. We can actually grow and learn from others. So I think that's. Yeah, quite encouraging as well.

When do you think we lost that sense of connection to wisdom in the West?

I don't know. I wonder if it wasn't something to do with the Industrial Revolution and sort of the introduction of cars and railways and, you know, like.

We'Ve transcended in some ways, you know, it's an amazing thing to think about, isn't it? Like, if you go back a relatively short time in if you think about the lifetime of a planet, you know, go back 120 years and outside of this window, people were riding on horses.

Yeah.

And then a few years later there was like horseless carriages, which is cars, you know. And I think the, the reliance on machines and you know, ways of doing things shifted maybe from the old ways.

And I guess the move of the education system to be more industrialized than, you know, I guess the basis for the modern schooling systems globally is we need to have people that can sit still for eight hours and do something in a factory. But I guess, yeah, it's interesting because you look back, like I said, I love looking into my sort of ancient philosophies and other concepts. You look at, you know, what Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, you know, there was a seemingly a whole lot of knowledge that we had back then that yeah, we just, we only seem to be glimpsing back into right now. And I guess there's only pockets of it, the sort of the intellectual dark web as they call it. You know, your sort of big hitters, your Dawkins, your Petersons, your. Yeah, those kind of guys who are really Sam Harris's who are sort of really trying to bring some of these big concepts back into fashion. But I guess there's always been an element of. Maybe it is, it's an elitist aspiration to be able to tap into some of this stuff in some ways because it's always been your, you know, your top tier of the class system historically that would have access to a Socrates or a Plato, you know, your generals and your emperors and what have you. But by the same token, was it. I remember one of the Stoic philosophers, he was a slave. He started off life as a slave and then, you know, I think either got his freedom or was still a slave while he was writing Stoic philosophy. So I don't know. I also kind of feel I quite like watching French document like French TV programs and French movies and they always seem to have. There seems to be. I guess that's why I've got my Tour de France French themed flags. My birthday is the 14th of July. So I have a natural affinity to the French and all things Franco. But in some of the, even their equivalent documentaries of like a crime series, there seems to be a depth of intellect to some of the characters in terms of how they're approaching life and. Yeah, what they talk about, which we don't seem to have either in the UK or in New Zealand. Yeah, yeah.

I don't have all the answers Here. But it's a fascinating question, that's for sure. I. Yeah, I think as well, though, I think anybody is capable of getting to those sorts of depths and thinking through. I'm just reminded what you were saying about what's the energy in a typewriter or in a building or something like that. And it reminds me of a story I heard that kind of matches what we're talking about, which is a person's walking along a road and they see someone in the distance, and they go up to them and they say, what are you doing? And they say, I'm. I'm stacking this brick on top of this other brick. And so the person keeps walking and they see another person doing the same thing, and they say, what are you doing? And they say, well, I'm putting this brick here because I'm building a wall. And then they walk a little bit further and they meet the third person and they say, what are you doing? They say, I'm building a cathedral. And it's. That the vision, like all three of them are doing the same thing, but having the vision or the bigger conception of, you know, even that the person building this cathedral. You know, this is the olden days, right. Like, they may not. They were intergenerational projects sometimes where you. You would work on this thing your whole life, and it might not be done by the end, but having that vision to go, I'm building something that's bigger than just stacking a brick on top of another brick. I think that way of thinking of life is quite helpful.

Yeah, totally. And there's the Ken Follett books. Have you read those?

I can't remember. No. They're quite thick. I haven't read those ones.

Yeah.

He'S one of those guys. He's got a couple of. He's got at least two trilogy series where one of them is about a cathedral being built in medieval England. And it's like three. Each book is a generation. And it's amazing because it loops back to the grandfather and the father and the things and exactly that. It's. And that's such a. The brick story is. It's that classic one, because all three of them are right, but one of them has taken the lens. And I've used that metaphor in purpose workshops, trying to get people to think about. Yeah, look, you are stacking widgets here or you are doing this task, but it's. If you can connect to the mean, connect to the contribution that that's making to something that's bigger than you, that's useful, but if that is then meaningful for you, that's even better. And that's kind of what purpose is all about. The other similar expression I've heard to that one is from Antoine de Saint Expir and he says, if you want to build a ship, don't drum up with the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. That's like I, I like that. It's like this is the thing. It's like you're doing. Choose to see how you're contributing to something way bigger than you. Otherwise you're just stacking bricks or you're just building a ship. It's like, yeah, that's cool stuff I'm using.

We're getting shorter and shorter. The one I use a lot at the moment is plant seeds of trees. You won't sit in the shade of nice. Which again, it's that sort of longer term thinking. And I think this is why I've enjoyed our friendship because I like to look around and see people who don't do what I do, but I can respect what they're doing in their lane or the way I think of it is like trains and they're, we're all on different tracks.

Yep.

But we're probably headed in the same general direction. And I can look over and I can see you doing what you do. You can look over at me. We can both look over and say, look at what Michael Philpott's doing. Michelle Sharp over there. You know, I'm just naming some of the local people that we all know, you know, Bridget Williams, Beaton Seed. All these people doing amazing stuff and go, they, they're not doing what I do, but they're doing stuff that matters. And that perspective of the long, the long game that this interview might be listened to, maybe, who knows, Using technology.

Yeah.

In a hundred years time, the people listening then are going to go, you know, they'll, they'll be using whatever the equivalent of Google is to look up this person Tim and this person Stephen and going, wow, listen to that conversation they had in 2021. And then look what those two went on to do in their respective areas. And you know, Tim continued to advocate for B corporations and there ended up being, you know, 50,000 B cores. And if we trace back to the, if we trace back to the origins, one of the people who was an ambassador was this guy named Tim. And that's really cool. And this guy Stephen, he kept advocating for, you know, New legal structures that enshrined purpose. And then later on they ended up with this. And it's. But the point is it can be really demoralizing. This is why it's an encouragement for both of us in the short term. Like I'm just, I'm just giving another talk next week or I. What have I achieved really? But if you can are able to have that bigger perspective, then it's like, oh, actually there is, there's a bigger thing going on here that I can't even express in words. Yeah, yeah.

And that's William James, the American philosopher. The best use of life is to, is to spend it for some. Something that will, that you won't see. Essentially the best use of life is to use it for something that allow. That outlasts it. It's like, yeah, play big, you know, play to the highest level that you can to do the most good that you can. Which is why it's all about grow good.

Yeah. And that was a big thing for you as well, wasn't it, in terms of when your daughter was born. That was part of your coming to realize that, you know, maybe it was time to do different things. Right?

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's bigger than me. Yeah. I mean, how about for you? Because yeah, we sort of, you're that, that just keen to dig into that little moment that you had where you're kind of, you know, you're high flying lawyer, you're seemingly, you know, the world is at your feet and you kind of like, actually I want to reinvent myself again, but this time I want to have a bit more meaning behind it. So was there a specific moment that led to that or was it like a series of moments?

Well, I think there were maybe a couple of factors. The first factor which I think is something that's really, really important is that my parents were a big influence on me. So go back to the 1960s. They were some of the first volunteers to go on the Peace Corps, which is something that John F. Kennedy set up as the president in the US in the 1960s. So they went to South America and worked with poor people as early 20 somethings. And so I think their life. And they met each other in Chile, they got married and then I came later on. But who I am has been shaped by the people who've come before me. So I think part of it was recognizing that there is a legacy there of wanting to live up to, you know, what my parents were about. So that's actually more I've reflected the More I've realized that actually is important. And then, yeah, I think the second thing is, it's really the first half of life is often about the CV and it's about the qualification that you've got and how you know which language can you speak and what grades did you get and what job have you got. And you know, we talk about midlife crisis because part of it is that first half you're running hard to achieve something that society has said this, this will be a success. You know, when you've got this job and you've paid off this mortgage and you've got this car and all that stuff. And then I think there is a point that does come not, not too early, you know, you have to live through it, where you then look at yourself and go, actually, what am I doing with my life? And that bigger question when I'm 75, how will I look back? And so for me, I think I was getting to my late 30s sort of time, you know, like mid to late 30s and thinking, you know, when I call my client and tell them they've now got a million more dollars, how, how is that helping the world, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so I think that was a big thing for me. And then the point of this is that the second half of life is very often much more motivated by principles. And it's motivated by was this person kind, did they care about people, did they take the time to mentor, did they try to speak into young people's lives? Those are the things that are going to be remembered. When you're at a funeral, nobody's going to stand up and say, I just checked and they, they got a B plus and you know.

This course. And so I guess the point is coming to an awareness of that, realizing that there are kind of two halves of life and realizing I was getting to a point where I needed to make a choice. And so the second half of the life could be more about regenerative effort. And. And then I think I've just been really fortunate that I landed on my feet in terms of the law firm that I work for, which has been open to this. And you know, not every firm would be open to a purpose driven lawyer coming in and, and doing that type of work.

Yeah, so that's themselves out there on the Internet.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's been a big part of it. But yeah, those are some of the factors.

I think that's a really common. That was certainly my, you know, I was like mid to late 30s. It's a really common. When you look at the male developmental stages, like we. Our prefrontal cortex doesn't come online until our sort of mid-20s, which we're typically unable to make any decisions, let alone good decisions. And then, yeah, that mid-30s is when it's, like Carl Jung would call it, the individuation process starts. So when you're starting to question, like, who am I? What am I here to do? And then guys typically reach emotional maturity by 42. So that's when we kind of have a real deeper sense of who we are and what we're about. And. Yeah, a bit of sort of mental resilience and stability and. And what have you. So, yeah, it's. It's a pretty common journey as well.

Is you stop caring as much what other people think, which I think is a. It's a good thing. Because, you know, being willing, like you. Like you. You're a great example. You're willing to stand up and make a joke about yourself, you know, Whereas if you're 23 or 24, you probably aren't willing to make a joke in the same way. So, you know. Yeah. Taking yourself too seriously.

No. One of my favorite words around that kind of process, I guess you and I both went through, is atonement. Because it's. It's like there's an element of. You've realized that maybe some of the work I've been doing hasn't been as noble in the contribution that it could have made. And there's also this sense of a split personality. Like, there's a part of me calling me to say maybe I could do something more meaningful. But when you break down the word atonement, you get at 1 ment, which is part of this individuation process. It's like I now need to become the individual who is indivisible, who I was kind of meant to be. And I think, yeah, when you get to that point as an. As a person, you. You do have that real sense of purpose and identity, and you are unshakable in kind of who you are at your core level, but you still are open to the ideas and I guess, like, the nuances are open to contemplation and discussion. And actually, I am seeing that from slightly the wrong angle, but I'm okay with, you know, transcending myself again to accept that and move on. Whereas, yeah, some of those more rigid ideas that we might hold in our youth. The impetuousness of youth, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what's what, you know, you talk about the energy it takes to put into these presentations and things. How do you recharge? Have you got any go tos or.

I mean typically like a 90 minute session on its own is not too bad. I'll still sort of, I'll just come home and pretty much just crash on the couch for an hour and just binge watch some rubbish on TV just to clear my head. The other thing as well, like typically on a big training day, I can do like 20,000 steps. So you're not only mentally drained, but you actually, you've done a proper workout. So yeah, depending on how big a session it's been or if I've got a really busy week, you know, I try, try and space out.

Trading days so that I don't have like too many consecutively because it does just, you know, it accumulates and take its toll. But yeah, really it's. I just have to have some downtime, zero human contact, you know, I'm just wiped out. Small talk, not interested. I think, I think it's a common thing for people who do this kind of work or, and also salespeople, I mean teachers as well. If you've been having to talk to people all week, you get to Friday night and it's like the thought of going out for drinks or you know, for a meal, I'm done. Like, I've spent all my small talk all week talking to random people that I don't know in a training room, trying to bring the energy that's like I've got nothing. And so it's, it's, I'm definitely slightly more extroverted, but I actually do need quiet time for me just to recharge. And you know, typically immediately afterwards it's like just crash and burn. But then it's like for me, my recharge is going for a daily walk, listening to a podcast or yeah, just go for a bike ride or just doing, doing some quiet time for myself where I'm not having to be the sort of the fun, energetic guy, it's kind of like I can just, yeah. Bring it back together so I can go again.

Yeah, that's really good. The danger for people like you and I who have young families is that the, that the family ends up suffering from what we do because it, it can feel tempting, like you say, to crash and burn on the, on the couch watching reruns of Friends or whatever. And it's like actually, you know, because I've got young children, I need to bring all that I am home just as much as I do to these strangers at, at work or wherever. So that's the balance, isn't it? Because it, it's like how do you continue to have that level of energy for all aspects of your life? And for me I definitely need sometimes when it's just quiet and I can just like you, you know, go for a walk or, or find some random shop to go in, preferably a secondhand bookstore and just see, you know, just browse through there and don't buy anything but you know, just, just kind of stimulate the mind in a different way. But it's definitely a balancing thing. I interview a lot of people and one of them I interviewed entrepreneur and I remember basically the family life had really suffered because he committed so much to the business. So it's a cautionary tale, I guess. Just have to be careful.

Yeah, I mean I've definitely been guilty of that. I think when you're starting out a business you do feel an immense amount of pressure to make it work. And typically that looks like late finishes, early starts. There's a constant for me, definitely there was the real concept, well, if you don't do that today, like you might not be in business tomorrow. And so yeah, I definitely was. I tended to though to sort of pull those hours later at night when everyone was asleep. I. Historically I've been probably more productive working from 8pm till midnight than any other part of the day. But just more recently it's like I think with the lockdowns and just getting busier and busier. It's like actually the. I'm. I'm actually able just to not work in the evenings now. I'm on kind of on top of it to a degree, but I'm genuinely so. I'm just so busy that I'm just wiped out that I can't work from 8 to midnight anymore because I know that I actually need the eight hour sleep to be productive the next day. But it is hard, you know, self employed. I mean, I didn't do it in a smart way really either because you know, my wife had just gone back to work starting her own business. And so we went from two really good salaries to basically 0.25 of a salary. And so we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. Yeah, I think if you, if you're looking at making that entrepreneurial leap, you want to have a stable boat to be leaping off. I think I kind of felt like I, I felt like I was in a, an emerging tsunami that I had to jump off the boat. But I hadn't realized that I didn't really have much of a life raft with me. And so I guess it's the. The part Viking heritage of, well, you're in the water now, boy. You got to swim to shore, because the boat ain't there anymore. And. And you. You realize actually that you don't even want to be on the boat. You want to be on a different boat. So. Yeah, so, I mean, that would be a question for you in terms of. You've interviewed now, what, 200? How many? 200.

Yeah, it's. I think next week is two, six, nine. So, yeah, it's a lot of people.

So 269 entrepreneurs, people doing things slightly differently with a. With a lens on impact and purpose. What would be your. Yeah, what's, like, the key lessons or key themes that you've seen across all those? There has to be some wisdom there that you could have pulled out for us.

Oh, yeah, for sure. I've actually curated. I've got a page where I've put some of my favorite ones as well, so we can put that in the show. Notes. I think, you know, a word that we mentioned before, which was curious. I think the people that I talked to, who tend to have done some really interesting things, they're willing to try new things. They're willing to ask questions. You know, it's kind of an entrepreneur attitude to the world is, why? Why do we do it this way? We could do this better. And then willingness to, you know, go there and think, well, what would that look like? That's a theme.

Constructive discontent is a phrase that I use for quite a while. It's like, I know that this could be better. And I'm not just saying that because I'm resentful and angry. It's like, genuinely, I think this could be better. And I think that's kind of the core of impact and purpose, is I see something that's happening here, and I think it could be better for everyone.

Yeah, exactly. And then, like you on my podcast, what I do is I ask people about their origins. So really, I go right back to what was life like for you when you were 4 or 5 years old? And really try to trace in the first half of the show all the influences on who they've now become. And so I think some of the themes that emerge from that is just the value of mentors, the value of older people speaking into a young person's life. So often this has been critical at moments. Like me in Japan, you Know, like there was somebody who was willing to talk to me and encourage me to do something. And so the flip side of that for the listeners, of course, is who do you know who's younger on a path? Maybe you don't even know them very well, but you could be the person that's the catalyst, that's the, the spark in their life that then causes them to go down a path that is far more generative. Because sometimes parents aren't able to see the true abilities of their children even. But you as a third person, maybe an uncle and aunt, you know, someone who's known a child their whole life and now they're 17 and, you know, actually taking a bit of time, why not, you know, say, hey, let's, let's go together on a one day ski trip, just you and me, and actually be willing to spend the time with somebody on their journey. Like, I think we need more of that handing off of intergenerational wisdom rather than just sort of like, you'll, you'll, you'll get there. You know, we all go through hard times and get up off the ground and keep going, you know, like. So I think that's a theme that comes through in the podcast, is supporting each other, encouraging each other. Yeah, yeah.

Nice. Yeah, I think that's. Again, with that sort of lack of easy access to wisdom. That, yeah, that just lack of. I just, I kind of feel like again, we touched on indigenous cultures and ideas, even just the kind of the stages of life, you know, like the coming into man ceremony or, you know, the manhood ceremony or, the, you know, going into womanhood ceremony. A lot of other cultures recognize those key stages in life and are more attuned to helping you navigate those key developmental stages. Whereas like you say here, it's kind of like, well, you're 18, you've got your school stuff, see ya, out you go into the world, try and get a job. That'd be useful. You know, don't, don't be too much of an idiot. That would be even better. Thank you so much. I mean, that's obviously over generalizing the western culture, but that, that.

Yeah, there's not seemingly easy places to access. Great pearls of wisdom out there. And I guess you're right. Particularly you and I are getting to the age now where we will have those people in our life, which is quite scary that someone might actually listen to something that we say that could change their life.

But this is so. I love that point. I'm just going to riff off of it and Go completely different direction. But how often when we. When we have birthdays, you know, if somebody's having a birthday and they're asked, how old are you? And they say, I'm 21, you know.

Yeah.

Like, it's a common thing. And I've. I've really tried to consciously not do that. The reason is. And I'm sure, you know, people like this as well. How many people do we know who, because of cancer and accident, whatever it is, they didn't get the chance to become 45, which is what I am right now. Like, to. Yeah, I think it's okay to get older. You know, like, it's a privilege that's denied to many, and I think it's an important concept to come become okay with, particularly in our culture, which is all about youth and young and everything. And I think if more of us can be willing to embrace our true age and say, you know what? I'm really happy that I am the age I am, because there's no point in wishing that you were younger anyway. You can't change things. But too often. My point is, too often we kind of. If only I was 27 again, you know, if only I was 21. If only I could have another chance. But how. There's millions of people were denied the chance to become the age that you are, Tim. To become the age that I am. And I think it's kind of almost an insult to those people to not be okay with getting older and embracing it. So, yeah, it's something I've been thinking about a lot. That's why it's coming out.

Yeah. I think there's two parts to me for that. One part is glancing into Facebook and looking at the number of people who were on Facebook. Oh, thank God. My booze delivery has arrived. It was amazing. I ordered it an hour ago. And my massive 20 crates of gin and vodka and beer has turned up.

Is one thing. And Lynn linked to that. This. This search for, you know, youth. This sort of. I guess it's. What is it? Peter Pan. Was Peter Pan the one I'm. Yeah. You know, that kind of search for eternal youth.

For me, it's symptomatic of this dis. Ease that a lot of people feel about who they are. And, you know, they. They haven't gone through the process. They haven't gone through that transcendence to become who they could be and be comfortable. I'm. I feel the most comfortable I've ever felt as myself, as a human being. I'm 43, apart from creaky knees and, you know, increasingly getting tired. And I keep saying I need to get my hair cut because I can see all the grays. When it's a bit shorter, it doesn't look as gray. But like you said, I think it's, we don't respect that, that wisdom, the stuff that, you know, we've both been around for 40 odd years. There's some stuff we know that a 19 year old just does not know because they just haven't, they can't necessarily because they've either not had the experience or they just haven't had enough life to actually come across that thing. And yeah, I think we, we reject that. And I guess two parts I'm unpacking there. One is that rejection of some smart stuff that's out there that we could connect into. But also just if you're uncomfortable with who you are, the answer is not going to be found in another order of booze from the online stock, online shop. It's going to become, you know, come from doing the development work that you need to do to find out where that's come from. But that's hard. Not many people like doing it.

Yeah, exactly. But I think both of us have this idea that you can grow, you can, you know, your, your slogan, you know, grow good. You know my podcast seeds, I chose seeds as the picture. You plant them, right conditions, what do you get? You know, a plant, a tree, whatever. So it is possible to change. And that would be my encouragement, you know, as we're drawing to an end here, is that it's possible for you as a listener to be listening to us riffing and then to go, I want to embrace some of these concepts as well. You know, like, we can all move forward, we can all become better versions of who we, who we have been in the past. One of the key things for me when I was, I think I must have been 16 or 17, so this is going back quite young, is I started thinking, how can I become the type of person that I would like to meet?

Nice.

So if I could do a course on a topic and that, the type of people that I like to meet, you know, they're interesting, they've got a variety of interests, they're, you know, they've accomplished some things, they've traveled. If I can become that type of person, then I'm going to make the active choice to do that thing. And that's been a really nice mindset for me to think through in my own life. Like, do I want to try to learn today. Well, the type of people that I would like to meet probably do speak a little bit of today, at least. So, yes, I do want to, you know. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, I think that's. There's some cool stuff there. It's kind of like the word decision basically means to kill the idea. So there are some things that you need to know that you don't want to do, and then there are the things that you're curious about that are part of this identity that you want to create that you will want to do. So it's like, it's as valuable to know as much of the things that you don't want to do so that you can kind of, you know, just create a short list of things that you could do. Because we're short of time. But, yeah, I think totally for me, it's. Have the ideal, like, the ultimate purpose. Question that I ask my clients is, who could you be? You know, there is this potential future version of you that you can step into, because if you're not growing, it's entropy. You're dying. So you have to constantly be growing and developing, because there'll be new things that hit you in life that you need to become adept at handling. Um, and so I guess it's like judgment against yourself as to who you could be. And am I living up to the ideals of who I could be? But the comparison against who you were yesterday, rather than the comparison of the, you know, the person who is a little bit like who you want to be, because that's when you get into that really dangerous social media loop of, oh, but look at them. They've got 10 more followers than me. And whoa, whoa, whoa is me. And so you kind of quit, and it's pretty easy. Rundown to nihilism and will. Who cares? So, yeah, keep growing, I think. Be a seed and grow. Good.

Exactly. That's good. Well, I'm gonna take the audio and put it on my podcast, and I think what we should do is every year, maybe we should just catch up. That's what I think. Tim Ferriss catches up with somebody pretty regularly, and they call it the random episode. Right.

I'm totally up for that. I can bring random any day you want. I know.

Because the last time you're on my show, I think I didn't tell you what it was about, and you came out and we talked about house prices.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, always open for that. Yeah, we should definitely do that. Awesome. Well, thank you, Stephen. And, yeah, you know, massive groveling Apologies for not having you on sooner. You've. You've been, like, on my list of people. So I need to get Stephen. Need to get Stephen. And then I either forget to record a podcast or something else. Yeah, someone else has got booked in, so, yeah, massive. Thanks for carving out some time today and we should definitely do it again, so.

Yeah, yeah, no worries. And thank you because I think you were literally one of the first people I even got to practice interviewing for seeds. So it's a nice full circle to see you with your podcast as well. I love seeing other people starting them who've been on and it's like, oh, yeah, it's, you know, the next generation. So thank you.

Awesome. All right, mate, we'll see you. Cheers.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening into my podcast. I hope you found it informative and inspirational. I'd love to know where you are on your purpose journey. And if you have any specific questions or people you'd like me to interview to help you on that journey, please do let me know. Also, feel free to connect with me on other social media platforms. You can check out all those links in the Show Notes below. And if you want to see how I might be able to help you specifically on your purpose journey, you can go and check out my website, www.growgood.co or drop me a line by email, timogood. Co. All those links will also be in the show notes. I would genuinely love to hear from you. But anyway, until next time, go well and keep seeking that purpose. Fuel performance in your life.

This.