#29 Frank and Fearless Discussion With Adam Harris

Foreign.

Hello Kia ora and welcome to Purpose Fuel Performance with me, your host, Tim Jones, the grow good guy.

Hi and welcome to the Frank and Fearless Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Harris. This podcast is all about helping leaders understand how do they get focused, flow and fun. Over the course of this podcast, I'll be working with and interviewing senior people, leaders and authors from around the world who will be giving their insights, their questions, their challenges around how they and the people that they work with become frank and fearless.

Welcome to the Frank and Fearless Leadership Podcast. Today I am joined by the wonderful Tim Jones, a Welshman who now finds himself in New Zealand. So going from one place where there was a lot of sheep to another place where there's a lot of sheep. Tim, welcome. How are you?

I will cover all bases and say Shamai and Kia ora.

Tim, let's kick straight off. So you now spend the majority of your time working and helping organizations become B Corps. Just explain what a B Corp is.

That's a very good question. It is certainly not a C Corp and it's not an A Corp. It is a B Corp. The B Corp stands for benefit Corporation. So basically the B Corp certification is third party independent verification of the transparency and accountability that a business has around its social and environmental performance. And when you certify, you get a little red certificate with a B badge.

Why is there a trend now to be thinking wider from just being a commercial organization that exists to make money? Why is it now important that we need to be thinking about the environment, about the people and about the supply chain?

It's interesting, like I think there are many.

Like my degree is in medieval history. That's a whole other podcast. But when you do history, they, they typically talk about, you need to look at the short term causes and the long term causes for an event. So at secondary school, doing A levels in the uk, I studied the French Revolution. And they talk about the short term causes and the long term causes. So short term, a group of people stormed the Bastille, cut some people's heads off whatever they did. And it's like cool. Revolution's on full on beast mode. But prior to that there were two years of bad harvests, there were many years of bad governance from the king, there was many years of high taxation, there were wars. And that all kind of led to the sudden, you know, explosiveness of that, of the start of the revolution. And I guess really B Corp and purpose driven business in general, there are many factors that are leading to it. I think in General just most people are pretty connected in the world these days to see how what I do will have an effect on the world around me. Whereas maybe even 20 years ago, you know, thanks to the Internet, you know, we didn't really get to see or know as much of that. I think we've got a massive generational shift with you know, just the younger generations coming through realizing that actually you know, there's more to life than just trying to chase money and just get a financial return in a business when actually there is a need for more meaning and purpose and contribution in our lives as individuals. Yeah, I think but also on top of that we're seeing, you know, economic forces, you know, investments. Banking is now recognizing that there is a long term better return on businesses that are looking at more than just prioritizing making money in the short term. So there are lots and lots of complex moving pieces. But I guess the take home message is it is now a thing. So get amongst them.

So you mentioned there about generations and about the younger generation really having a conscious awareness of their buying behaviors.

Yep.

So at what point does the kind of crossover come where actually an organization has no choice than to be a B corporation? Because if they're not, they're going to be going backwards pretty quickly.

Yeah, I, I don't think that's going to be too far away for some industries. I think if you look at consumer goods it is definitely now a thing. I've just recently, well a month or so ago now finished working with NZTE New Zealand Trade and Enterprise and B Lab which is the not for profit organization that runs the B Corp certification system. We just helped 43 New Zealand FMCG exporters look at the assessment and have some one on one consultation around how to do the assessment and to maximize, you know, if they go through and do certification all of them will do but you know how to maximize the certification in terms of you know, business growth and market potential and expansion and going through that. Just looking at FMCG sort of so fast moving consumer goods, consumer brands, particularly health, beauty and nutrition, looking at a lot of their peers in North America and Northern Europe, their competitors are B corporations. So for this cohort it this wasn't aspirational. This is table stakes. This is if we're claiming to be a holistic, you know, nutrition company that is, I don't know, vegetable powered, protein power type stuff and you're not a B corp, it's kind of like oh really? That's interesting. So I think there's and we're seeing that already. If you look at the B Corps we've got in New Zealand, we've got the Cheer Sisters, we've got four Fix and Fog, the peanut butter company, we've got etiquette, we've got little yellow bird who do clothing apparel. So certainly in New Zealand the early adopters are, there's a number of them from that sort of consumer facing brands. And this is the thing. You know once, once I took a photo, I posted it on LinkedIn the other day. Like I opened up the fridge and I have like The Raglan Coconut Company 1 I didn't mention and the, the coconut yogurt was in the fridge and, and it had the little B Corp logo on the back just facing out to me. And I was just like my God, that's so cool. I've got a B Corp in my fridge. And then I was like hang on a minute. And I went and looked at my. I've got my little. There you go. My Pucker T for those of you watching this on video. So my little Pucker T which is a. I think they're a UK based B Corp. And then I was like hang on a minute, I'm about to go and have a shower with my etique. B Corp Solid bar, you know, shampoo products. Oh and I bought it all with my Kiwi bank business credit card or home credit card which is now B Corp. That's pretty cool.

Those listening from further afield from a global perspective, couple of names for me that come to mind that I'd like you to add Ben and Jerry's Patagonia.

Give the audience a couple more big global brands.

Yes. Danone, which is like one of the world's biggest companies is kind of going through business units by business unit. Natura, which basically is, I think they're like a multi billion dollar South American outfit that owns the body shop and they also own Avon. They're a B Corp. It's hard to keep up with the play because there's some, if you're in the UK in particular, like B Corp is pretty big. I think they've, I think they've just hit 500 or more B Corps in the UK. I think like there's like innocent drinks. I think they're a B Corp in the uk. There's some pretty mainstream brands in the UK that like in Waitrose, if you go on to Waitrose Online to do your shopping, they have a B Corp aisle. So you can search online for all the brands in Waitrose that are A B Corp, but that's pretty cool.

So I'm a business owner, I'm a leader working within an organization.

How do I find out more about being a B corp and what's the sort of process that's involved in getting certification?

Yep.

So if you go to like in the UK it would be bcorporation.co.uk I'm pretty sure bcorporation.net is the global domain and then regionally for Australia, New Zealand it's bcorporation.com you can get a good overview of what it is and what, why the movement is a thing. I've also got a couple of ebooks that I'll get through to you and you can put as links in the show notes that give a really good summary of kind of what this thing is, where it came from and why you should look at doing it. But really the starting point is. So the, the assessment is initially a self assessment. So you go through, it's pretty much a glorified questionnaire which looks at your business across five pillars. So it looks at your governance, so who owns your business? How transparent and accountable is your business from a governance perspective? It looks at your workers. So beyond state mandated requirements for staffing and employment laws, you know, what extra benefits do your staff get around personal development, around opportunities for growth, health insurance and all those kind of things. It looks at your community impact. Um, so yeah, how, how are you operating in your local community? Are you, are you seeking to work with independent small suppliers local to where you operate or are you supporting, you know, bigger companies in your supply chain? That's hard for some bigger businesses because you can't get the scale. It looks at your environmental footprint and then it looks at your customer model. So you literally go through and your customer model is basically what, what are you selling to whom and do you have sort of guarantees in place and other bits and bobs like that and privacy, data privacy, privacy around data usage and things like that. But so essentially it's this initial self assessment and you need to meet a threshold of 80 out of 200 points for you to click submit for you to then get in the queue, which you don't have to do. You can just go online, take the assessment, it's completely free. So if you go to bimpactassessment.net you can go and take this assessment completely free and you'll get a whole lot of learnings and you'll be asked a whole lot of questions about your business that you just haven't maybe pondered on before. But yeah, if you want to go through the certification, you meet the 80 out of 200 threshold. You click submit, you go into the queue to be verified, you get a standards assessor who will then go through your assessment, pick out some questions to audit you on. You successfully complete that audit, and as long as you're still over 80 out of 200 points, you pay your certification fee and you come. Welcome to the community. So that's it.

So two things I want to pick up on there. One, actually, it's a really good benchmarking tool to ask as where you're at and actually if you're a business or an organization or a leader that is thinking and being different to your competitors, great place to start. Just talk to us a little bit about the community because you kind of mentioned this aspect of opening the fridge and feeling and I know you well and I know that there's a huge sense of kind of pride knowing that the conscious purchases that you're making are in line with those organizations that are aspiring and doing things more than just earning and making money.

So it is a real thing. Like it was really interesting when Kiwi Bank, I mean, I guess I've been, I've been part of this thing since day, almost day one. So I. When I stumbled across B Corporation in, I think it was 2013, there were two B Corps in New Zealand. We're now at about 46ish, give or take. It's hard to keep up because they're coming through semi regularly these days. But I've been pretty heavily invested in it, I guess on a personal side because I was so disenchanted by what the modern business world was providing me and my, what I call my hard Brexit from the corporate world of just, you know, it is completely meaningless. It's pointless. We're all just trying to kill each other to earn more money for some bloke typically at the top of the food chain who actually doesn't give a rat's ass about anything that we're doing here. And I'm. I'm spending my time creating a spreadsheet to send someone else. I'm sending it to Adam and his company and he doesn't even care about the spreadsheet. He doesn't even like the company he's working for. And yet, you know, we're all doing this and that's okay, that's normal. So I had this real. For me, it was like the earthquakes we had here in Christchurch 2010, 2011. Then my daughter was born in 2012, I basically had what's called a subconscious awakening. So I kind of got to see the show for what it really was and how utterly insane most of what we're doing on a day to day basis. So I guess I'm relatively deep in the matrix on this one. And so yeah, it does, it feels, it literally when, when the message from like Kiwi bank came through, I got, I was on like the early release email from Julia, the head of sustainability. I just picked up the phone straight away, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like I just speechless. And there is this sense of community because I guess we are. Well for the last, since like 2013, man, it's like almost 10 years. We've, we've kind of been on the bleeding edge of trying to transform business and the economy and capitalism and, and everything so that everyone has a better go and has a better opportunity at surviving. You know, we're glorified chimpanzees spinning around on a disk in the middle of a universe inside a bunch of infinite other universes. You know, we're all just trying to have a good time here and get to maybe 80 or 90 and think that that was worthwhile. But it's like there's this core group of businesses that genuinely get that and genuinely actually care about trying to be the best for the world, not the best in the world. And so there is this, there is a real sense of community. It's not, it doesn't necessarily mean that just because someone's a B corp, they're going to be your best mate, but there is definitely this sense of sort of esprit de corps that you, you have met a benchmark as a business that not every other business has and that means you are doing something different. And so I guess it's the, the intent, the philosophy that, the mindset within the businesses that just means, I mean there's a good mate of mine, Ian Harvey, he runs a business called Collective Intelligence and he, they certified as a B corp and he was like, look, we really want to try and do something. So Ian basically created a roadshow event. We went from, we did Christchurch, Wellington, Auckland over three days and basically all we did was it was him and his team who pretty much ran it. But he said it was astonishingly, it seemed to him astonishingly easy to create a three day roadshow event because we were dealing with other B corps. Everyone was just like, do you need a venue? Do you want some sponsorship? Do you need help with setting up? It was like everyone just wanted to chip in because they were like, yeah, we want to help spread the, spread the word. Whereas he said, you know, he runs events semi regularly. And he just said this was by far and away the easiest series of events to run because there was that sense of community.

So there was a phrase in that that I heard which I just want to repeat because I think it was great. A B corp aspires to be best for the world, not in the world. Well, I mean that, that, that, that for me and I know, I know quite a bit about B corpse because of spending time with you and you educate me. I think for me that absolutely sums it up in wanting to be and do things better for all of the different stakeholders involved.

You've mentioned a couple of times so far around purpose.

Because this is a word that gets banging around a lot. You know, what's your purpose? What's your higher meaning? And I don't know why I'm doing it with an American accent.

Why not?

But maybe because it just. There's definitely kind of a cheesiness about it. But from your perspective, what is purpose and what's the impact that that should have, first and foremost on the individual, but then second of all into an organization.

I spent six years trying to work out what the answer to this question was. And it's one of those classic examples. Just go look in the dictionary. Because the dictionary actually nails it really, really well. The dictionary describes purpose as essentially the reason for which something was made or created and something's useful. Usefulness. And that. It's like that is actually the definition. So if you look on the individual level, if you look at like the word genius, if I say to you genius, who is the first person that comes to mind?

Albert Einstein.

Albert Einstein. 100%, every time, ever since Albert Einstein. The thing is, right, genius doesn't actually mean genius in terms of, wow, you're really, really brainy. Genius is. It comes from the Latin, which basically means soul. So the first part of purpose is to be the absolute purest, most authentic, soul driven version of you. So there's that famous Mark Twain quote, paraphrasing badly. The two most important days in the world are the day you were born, the day you find out why it nails it. Because this is the thing. Like, the chances of you being you, Adam, are so infinitesimally small that you should not exist as a human. So your mum and dad had to stay together long enough to have at least one decent night of some kind of fun. Hopefully, you know, but that was the one sperm out of the many million that your dad created over all of his life that met the one egg that your mum had created at that time. But that's your mum and dad at an unbroken chain of genetic reproduction that goes back, depending on your religious, spiritual, scientific belief system, a long, long time. So, like, the chance that you exist is so small that you should not exist. But equally, you are unique. Like, you have skills, you have, you know, you have a. You were born with an innate personality type which is kind of yours, which then gets built on over time. So that's, that's the first part of it is like, be you. But that's the hardest part because no, not many people know who they are and not many organizations know who they really are. The second part to it then is you being you sort of being the best version of you contributing to the greatest good that you can for someone or something around you. Now for many people. And this is the really, you know, this is, I guess it's like purpose with a small P. Purpose with a big P. In some ways. Like if, if we were all just good parents and raised good kids, that's a pretty meaningful life, you know, it's like if that's where you just need to stop. And right now, in lockdown, where we are in, in New Zealand, like, we're both struggling with that. You know, we're not even. Because let's face it, your kids are on an iPad. My kid is definitely on an iPad right now. But this is the thing, like, as you start becoming more you and becoming the best version of you.

You will want to kind of lift heavier and more frequent loads of contributions. So start with you, become the best version of you, then become the best family of you. Then start thinking about, how can I operate in my community to do some good? Okay, now I've nailed or maybe my business, then it's my community that it's maybe my society, that it's maybe my country. And then it's like, cool. Now I'm can operate at a global level of this stuff, but the hud, it's, it's relatively easy to go and contribute to something. And this is where most businesses were founded was because someone had a problem. And it's like, cool, I think I can solve that for you. But where it kind of has all got a little bit misguided is, okay, well, the problem that you had is that a genuine kind of Maslov's hierarchy of need. Need, or have we actually created the need with you with Our crafty marketing department over here with our great coloring in skills. Sorry, marketing people, as a salesperson, I have to get that one in. You know, have we created an artificial need here which is actually preying on your lack of meaning and purpose because you're not complete and you don't know who you are. And so we'll make you buy stuff that you don't need so that you feel slightly more complete. And then we'll try and sell you more of that year on, year on. And then we do that and we go, wow, there's lots of money in this. This is cool. Because everyone likes money and buying shit. You know, it's like this is the problem. Instead of actually pulling it back and going does anyone actually need what we're selling? What a crazy idea.

So yeah, so I'm sure there'll be people that will be listening to this or those people that go, yeah Tim, that's really quite inspirational. And you know, and I hear you, however, surely that's for everybody else because what you're asking of me is to spend time on myself and work out what it is that I want and need. And that's too hard.

It is too hard. Which is why the vast majority of people who listen to this and who listen to me preach on about purpose at any time won't bother. Because it's too hard. It's the hardest thing you'll ever do. I think it was 2014, University of Virginia in the US they got a whole lot of grad students in, you know, to do this experiment and they said, right, we're basically put you in a room in a minute. It's a dark room. You're going to be in there with nothing but yourself and your own thoughts. You need to stay in the room. I think it was like 10 minutes or maybe 20 minutes. If however you want to leave the room anytime, you can self administer an electric shock. What percentage of people self administered the electric shock? Oh.

75%.

It was some, it was 70 to 80%. And they weren't asked to listen to their thoughts, to challenge their thoughts, to question their thoughts. It was just be in a room with nothing but your own thoughts. Like if you can't even handle the day to day mundane chatter of the chimp mind, what hope have you got of. But this is like, this is the irony of, you know, most people listening to this will like either Star wars or the Hobbit or Harry Potter. It's like the clue is in the really high grossing movies that do really, really well, it is the hero's journey. And the hero's journey means you have to go inside and slay the metaphorical dr, which is the parts of you that you don't want to exit, you don't want to admit exists. And the bits of you that aren't complete. And all the childhood trauma, because we all had it, whether it was just like mom and dad didn't give you enough cuddles when you genuinely, when you wanted them, through to extreme trauma of, you know, physical, domestic, you know, violence and sexual abuse and what have you. Like, we're all carrying stuff that we don't want to admit that we're carrying it. But this is, you know, this is the story that has captured humanity since forever. It's like, what is it the story of Percival or parcel, you know, where should the Knights of the Round Table enter? The forest where it appears darkest to them. It's like the clue is there, but people don't want to do it because it's hard because you have to go and admit that there's a whole lot of stuff that you don't know and you're not who you thought you were. And there's blame and there's anger and there's resentment for you. You being this version of you that was created typically by your parents, your society, your peers, your schooling, all the rest of it. And so people would rather be comfortably numb and go and buy that new iPhone or Android phone and get their fix and their need for approval from that, rather than actually going inside and doing the work. But if you're a leader listening to this and you want to take yourself, which is why I call it Purpose Fuel Performance. It's like, if you tap into this stuff, it's. It's like nuclear fuel. It's.

Yeah. And, you know, that's one of the reasons why I called my business Franken Fearless, because first and foremost is that we've got to look at ourselves, you know, we've got to look at ourselves in the mirror and just, you know, be the best version of ourselves. I just want to pick up on. So if your hero's Journey was a film, or would the title of the film be. And who would. Who would play you?

Oh, well, my working title for all my sort of Purpose Journey stuff is In Pursuit of Purpose. And I'd probably. I'd want to have a young Dolph Lundgren.

So, interestingly, locally, here where I am in New Plymouth, Dolph Lundgren's stunt double now lives around the corner.

I'LL take him, he's hired.

I have been. I have been said that I do also. Some people think I look like Greg Davis of Inbetweeners and Taskmaster Phone.

Yes.

But I think it's only because I'm tall and half Welsh, just like him.

Yeah, you do look quite similar to him, to be fair as well. It's a little bit of a toss up as to who's funnier out of the two of you, but.

Well, thank you, I'll take that. I think. I think that's a compliment, but I'm not sure.

Tim, your. Your journey to getting to where you are now. What. What's the biggest regret that you've got when you. When you reflect back?

Genuinely no regrets as that Cheesy. If you're in New Zealand, you'll have seen the no Regurgits advert. For those of you outside New Zealand, it means nothing, but Google it. It's not that funny.

I remember when I lived in. I lived in Australia for a year. So I left the uk, went to Australia for a year, went back to the UK for a year, came to New Zealand and I was watching some movie with this family that I was living with and it was one of those. There was a French guy in it and, you know, full of, you know, philosophical ideas and stuff. And the one thing that really stuck with me, I can't remember the name of the movie, but I remember this line. He said, there's no such thing as regrets. There's only things we did or didn't do. And I. For me, that just sums it up. It's like you, you wouldn't be you if all the stuff that hadn't happened in your life hadn't happened.

So why do you think it is that people hold. Hold so much energy, positive or negative, as to the things that they have done or they haven't done?

That's a great question. It's. It's human condition, I guess, that kind of loss aversion mentality. You know, we typically regret the things we didn't do more than we regret the things that we did do.

It's part partly like negative memories are typically there for you to remember so that you don't do it again. So feelings of sort of shame, regret, anger, what have you, that's typically. It's ingrained in your mind because your body's like. Or your, your brain is like. That was really close. If you do that again, you're going to be thrown out from the tribe or you could have died. So let's let's burn that one in, you know, with acid, you know, etch it in so that you don't forget that one.

I was going to say something else aligned to that, but it skipped my mind. What was the question? Say the question again because I had something that I think was actually quite genius.

So when you think about the positive or negative events that happen, why. Why do we hold on to it so much?

Yeah, yeah. So we hold onto it for the memories. But this is the key. Like, so if you. I love me. A bit of Jungian psychology. So the shadow, shadow integration. So the parts of you that you don't like. So anytime you feel anger, resentment, shame, like any of those really, really bad juju, kind of like vibey energies inside you, you have to work out where that came from. And you, again, this is the hard part. You got to go and ask yourself, well, actually, how much of that did I contribute to? Maybe, maybe it was me. We don't like having those. We just want to live in, you know, la la land. It's unicorns and rainbows. Life's good. It's not me, it's everyone else. You know, it's the world. I can't do anything. It's. It's easy to kind of drift through life with that mentality. And typically we don't go there. You know, I can't remember who coined the phrase, but you know, we, we only change when we're sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like when you are on death's door or when you are at your absolute lowest, that's when we realize that the pain of change is going to be no worse than the pain we're in. It's hard to, it's hard to ask people to go through change and deep transformational work when life is good because why would I upset the apple cart?

So when we know that the actual rainbows and the unicorns are at the other end of the rainbow, when you find and understand purpose and we also picking up on your points with regards to know and understand that the journey is hard.

Why is it still that there's so many people that are just stopping and preventing themselves from going on the journey to get, you know, some might say the self actualization, you know, what, what is it? What can we do in the roles that you and I do and, and other leaders? What can we do to encourage, support, challenge, mentor, guide, coach to help people through their individual journeys?

Nice. I mean a large part of it is maybe who you're hanging out with. You know, what is it? Was it plus or minus 10?

Yeah. Jim Ray.

Yeah. You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You know, misery likes company.

Why should you go off and become, you know, transcended and transformational, Adam, when you and I can just be sad and depressed here, drinking beers together in this pub for the last, for the next 20 years, like we have done for the last 10 years. You know, there's a lot of that, you know, poor me, that there's some really interesting research recently on mirror neurons. So the people that you hang out the most with, your, your brainwaves start sinking. So, you know, and because we have that negative bias, you know it all, it's easy to get into a negative doom loop spiral of, well, it's, there's no point, you know, it's quite easy to get nihilistic about stuff rather than to sort of step up and do stuff. So, yeah, I think it's. Look, the main one would be, you know, who you hanging out with and who's actually got your best interest at heart would be, I think, a key one. And I think for, for organizations or for people who are in a role where they can facilitate helping people become their best version of themselves. Like, why wouldn't you do that? Like, if you're genuinely a leader, that's, that's kind of your job is to make the people around you become the best versions of them so that you all do better together. But again, I, from my experience of the corporate world, there was many leaders who were like, actually, no, I don't want you to look better than me because all of a sudden I'm going to look bad in front of the boss. So we'll just maybe keep you down there or we won't send you on that program or we won't put you on that course. So I think there's, that's a gross generalization. But certainly some of the leaders that I worked under in my career were, it's kind of like, yeah, we don't really want you to be looking much better than me because whereas the good leaders were like, I want you to shine here. Like, I'm even. Even though you only did a half, like, I might have helped you on this project, I'm going to let you take all the glory because, yeah, I.

I subscribed to and I heard this quote many years ago. Surround yourself with people that are better than you. You know, if you give, you give people the conditions for success and you're almost a Little bit of a puppeteer and just pulling the strings very, very subtly and slightly, actually, is that you will enhance, encourage, delegate, elevate all of the skills that are needed to have to have success. Just want to go back slightly. As you were talking before, you reminded me of an exercise I did. This is probably going back about 10 years ago with a speaker friend of mine in the UK called Juliet Lee. And I remember being on a retreat with her, and she said, right, okay, I want you to write down who's the one person that really annoys you, and just write down the three or four traits and who's the one person that you really admire, and what are the three or four traits? So, you know, you write it down. And then I just remember really distinctly, she just turned around and looked me dead in the eyes. And she says, so those things that you see in the people that you don't like and the people that you like, they're the traits that you've got. And part of me was just like, oh, shit. And then part of me was like, she's got me. Absolutely. And I think there's something in that. Is that actually, how often do we take that opportunity to stop and reflect on those people that we've actually got in our lives and almost do a bit of a sense check? So random story question coming to you now. Who's the one person that's not in your life that you would want in your life?

Wow, that's an interesting one.

Before I answer that one, can I quickly close off the thing? So what you're talking about is like, that's. That's exactly like the Jungian shadow trigger. It's like the thing that you see in other people. So the first thing, when you. When you get triggered by anything, the first thing you need to ask yourself is, is it true? It's like, okay, I've been triggered. Is how or what I've been triggered on, is it actually true or have I made this up in my mind? Is this bigger than this thing actually is? If it is true, is there something that I can learn from this? Like, actually, am I wrong? Could I do this better or could I be more disciplined? Which is. Which was like, that's been a big one for me over the last couple years. Then the next thing is to say, cool, can I control any of this? Like, or what of this? Can I control and make better and become better than me? And then you take appropriate action? Or if it's false and it's out of your control, you have to Ignore it. Ultimately, this is all around that integration. So this is what I love about when you start looking into words like the word atonement. If you break it down, it is at one mint. When you. When you are an individual, you are indivisible. It's like, I am one. There. You. You can't hurt me. I am one. I'm bulletproof. I'm on my track. I'm contributing. I am me. 100% me. Authentic, doing my thing. It's like, that's the place to be in terms of people who are not in my life. I don't know. This is a really tricky one. It would be interesting to have met both my grandfathers. I never knew either of them. They both, like, my dad's dad died when he was maybe 15, and my mum's dad died when she was about 4. So that would just be interesting because, like, the. The paternal line in my family, my dad passed away in 2016, so I. I have. The paternal line is not strong in the. In the Jones Whnau. So, yeah, it'd be interesting just to have met them. But ultimately the one I'd love to know whether he was a real dude or not was King Arthur. It's like, come on, we've got to know.

Show me you love your. You love your history. I know. I do love your history. Okay, so if you were going to be at the side of any battle, sitting next to a historic leader.

Who would you want to be sat next to? And what would you be wanting to hear?

I reckon either.

Man, that's a good question. I don't know. I'd probably go someone like, maybe Julius Caesar or Marcus Aurelius. Like, I've just. I'm really getting into my stoic philosophy. So I reckon sitting down with Marcus Aurelius and going, dude, that's. Hey, trust me, write that one down. That's a keeper.

I mean, Marcus Aurelius, just like, I know there's lots of things that aren't good, though. He had slaves, but, hey, they all had slaves. You know, not justifying it, but, you know, yes, there's some. There's some not cool things that he did, but, man, you look at some of the stuff he wrote and you're like, you're a smart geezer. Like, you. You knew some stuff.

When you. When you look back and you think about all the wonderful things that you've done, what would you have wanted to spend more time doing?

Certainly not drinking beer at Cardiff University, because I seem to have maximized that between 1996 and 1999.

Is that where your student loan went?

Well, luckily I didn't have one. I was the last, the last group in the UK to get through with a free tertiary education. So. Thank you. So the government paid for your alcohol? Well, I did. I was in the. I was in the reserve forces, so I got paid. I was in the, in the OTC and then the ta. So I paid my way. Got paid to play a bit of rugby for them as well. I don't know. Like I said, for me there are, there are no regrets. There's nothing that I'd want to do differently because I think if I did anything different, I wouldn't be who I am today. And I. I'm pretty happy now with who I am. And I think it's all, it's all part of the journey and you know, it's like any Time Machine type movie seems to be. You go back and change one thing doesn't end so well.

Yeah, the whole slide, the whole sliding doors aspect, isn't it?

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

So it'll be rude of me not to pick up on. So you were born and raised in Wales, you're now living.

Well, born in Oxford, unfortunately.

Okay.

It's a half Welsh. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so if England, England, Wales and New Zealand were in the semifinals of the Rugby World cup, who's your team?

Wales, 100%. And I was, I was there to watch them with that disastrous Alain Roland red card decision in the semi final in Auckland. Whenever that was a few years ago. Genuine tears. There were floods of tears from many hardened Harlech men chiseled from granite and steel. Who. Yeah, terrible night, but don't bring that back up. Trigger. Trigger.

So how. So then, Tim, how do you deal with your triggers? I mean, let's pick up on that because you kind of mentioned it before, but how. How do you deal with your triggers?

So it's all about awareness. That that is like, it was written on the temple of Apollo at Delphi. Like, know thyself. Like it's. It is the maxim for all maxims. Just know who you are. Okay, so I had, I had this during the previous lockdown. It was a really big thing for me. So we were at the time living in a rental place. So it was me, my wife, my daughter and my mother in law was living with us. So we were in the process of. We had a section we were just about to start building with like a granny flats. It was all gonna be good during lockdown. Like I'm pretty Close to the edge because it looks like my business is about a fold because all my future business was, you know, face to face training, coaching, speaking stuff. They suddenly go, well, there's no school, so now you're a teacher and a parent. And my wife's business, she picked up a massive contract like the day before lockdown. So she basically kicked me out of my home office and said, you're on it, buddy. Good luck. So having a pretty bad time was working till sort of 1 2am in the morning. So I was kind of doing parenting teaching until 6 or 7, getting dinner done. And then I'd sit down and try and do a day's work to try and salvage what I could. And during the day the mother in law would come in and she'd make herself a sandwich on the kitchen worktop without using a chopping board. And I'd have just cleaned it as part of my, you know, household duties during the day, trying to get everything spick and span. And there'd just be a trailer crumbs and some little splodges of, you know, tomato, what have you. And I just sit there and kind of just go, did you mentally. Didn't actually say anything. Just mentally like, did you not just see that that was like spotless before you came in. And now it's not like, doesn't that bother you? And I was getting close to like, how do I, how do I have this conversation? And then basically remembered the similar conversation that you had with a lady you mentioned. I was like, oh, hang on a minute, Timothy, what are one of the things that you've historically struggled with in your business? Would it be discipline? And would it be just like generally a bit of sense of order?

The shadow is calling, Timothy. So then it's like, cool, okay, this is just the daily challenge for me. It's like, oh, I will add this to my daily list. It's like, it's cool. I'm going to do it. Because being disciplined enough to come back and clean something that's already been cleaned, that's cool. And now, now that you've remembered that the discipline is the thing that you need to really work on, bring use that now as like an anchor. Tidying the kitchen right now. Go tidy your business.

So there's some great stuff there for me. There's a couple of teachers of mine. There was a friend of mine now in the US called Professor Sri Kumar Rao, who wrote a book called are you ready to succeed?

His students have now actually taken on a business called Wise humanity. Davide and Elizabeth and I hope, and both of those will be future guests on the. On the podcast. And one of the tools that they helped me understand was something called good thing, bad thing. Who knows? The aspect of we. We find in the moment when the emotion comes up is that we feel that we need to label something totally. We need to label it. This is really good or this is really bad. And actually what we need to do is we need to find a way of pausing, is to take in that. That step back mentally and just allowing ourselves not to kind of, kind of label how. What's the practices that you do on it? I mean, for me personally, you know, I wrote a book called the Check in Strategy Journal with a friend of mine, Robert Craven, but for me, journaling has actually been a big part of that. It's about journaling in the morning, but also in the evening to just capture those moments of how and what do I need to do to just prevent myself from the reaction that I know is going to come based on the triggers? You know, what. What is it that you do?

Yep, totally. So that was. That was a big part certainly of my journey. Sort of discovering my purpose was like just writing down stuff and like, really reflecting on stuff. Just. Yeah. And as you were saying just before, like that pausing and stuff again, this is like the. All the stoic stuff that I'm really sort of digging into at the minute. It's like, the thing is, like you said, it's neither good or bad. You're putting your. Projecting that onto it. You control what you can jog on from the rest of it. It's like, don't let it chew up your mental real estate. So, yeah, journaling, definitely reflecting on how, you know, how could I have been better today? It's like, what have I done today that I'm not as proud of, you know, Or I could have done it in a better way. That's. Yeah, that's. That's all you can do. Like the. I've kind of been trying to draw this into a bit of a model. I've been trying to put some ideas down. I'm trying to put it into a model, but you kind of need. Judgment is a bit of a loaded word. Don't judge people. But judgment in maybe a more spiritual sense or typically a biblical sense, like judgment against something, the highest ideal. You know, like the almost like the ultimate purpose question to ask yourself is, who could I be if I created the best version of me? What would that. What would that person look like? And Think like and be and do so judging yourself against the best ideal of you that you can imagine, imagine today, but then comparing yourself against who you were yesterday, that's like, cool, I'm still not there yet. That's a path and that's a life journey. But am I better than I was yesterday? Yeah. Cool. And that's, that's really the basis for me is like, just keep comparing yourself against, against yourself. Like, play your own, your own game in that regard and be the best version of you. But yeah, journaling for me, the other, the other one is just taking time out. I like going for a walk in the morning and I'll listen to some podcasts. I'll just get some content in my head. Just get me thinking. That kind of keeps me on an even kill. Just, you know, it's, it's either one of Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle. They kind of all blend into one with a lot of their quotes because, I mean, they're basically, you know, one taught the other who taught the other. But, you know, it's kind of like the, the only thing you need to know is that you know nothing. You know, paraphrasing it really badly. It's like if you just enter every day with curiosity and the belief that you're wrong on everything that, you know, that's a cool way to be because it's like. But again, this is where people get, they get so held on to their beliefs and everything that they believe to be true. And as soon as that gets, you know, a little chink in the armor or a little, you know, a little pebble falls off the wall of impregnability around that belief, it's, it's really, really stressful.

So, so just before this, this podcast recording, I was doing a video talking about comfort zone and, you know, challenging yourself to get comfortably uncomfortable so that you can become more frank and fearless. Continuing on the conversation that we've been speaking about. First of all, you gotta be frank and fearless with yourself before you can do that with other people. What did you do on a daily, weekly, or on a consistent basis that pushes you to the edge of your comfort zone?

I guess all sorts. So it's funny you mentioned that because I've just started a 60 day challenge type thing which I've put out on social. It's like, you know, have it, have a go at it. It's like a few things that I do on a regular basis, and one of them is, is do something hard, like, push yourself. Now, it can be as simple as, like, When I go for a walk in the morning, I go out around a little reserve and there's some pebbles and some little bits of gravel and stuff. Occasionally I get a pebble in my shoe. It's like cool, just keep walking. It's, it's, it's annoying. Cool. But can you live with it? Yeah, it's not going to kill me. So there are many little micro things that you can do on a daily basis that will push you, that will extend you where you might typically go, oh, this is too hard, I'm just going to stop. And even things like just having a cold shower. I love going for a walk. Like it will be minus something down here in Christchurch in the middle of winter and I'll be wearing shorts and the T shirts and I'll put a pair of gloves on, stop me getting frostbite. But I'm quite happy to walk around in minus something in shorts and a T shirt because it's like it's, it's going to be cold call. But if I can learn to cope with the cold it's just going to make me because this is like for me when it comes to kind of like resilience. I kind of like the David Goggins school of resilience. Like the main way you get resilient is by doing things that push you. It's as simple as that. Like and if you, and again this kind of leans back on the stoics again it's like if you can do things that are hard deliberately when it comes to something hard hitting you unexpectedly, you are so better prepared to handle the slings and arrows of misfortune that will come your way. Because yeah it's, it's guaranteed that something's going to happen. So whether it's like if you're going for a run, like push the last hundred meters or add another 100 meters on the run or walk up like there are a million and one ways you can stretch yourself, you know, in little ways every day. And again they compound. You know, if I do three of those today, it'll mean that tomorrow I get to do those same three things again but to the next level.

Yeah, a friend of mine, Chris Payne again, he'll be a future guest. He. I remember him telling me about the aspects of kind of setting goals and creating new habits and depending on the research you reckon it takes between 30 and 66 days to create a new habit. Is that, you know, the age old thing, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time is that you Set yourself the minimum. So let's say, for example, it's going to be press ups. You know, I want to get to the stages doing, you know, 50 press ups is that you start and the expect. You set the expectation so that it becomes achievable to say, I will do a minimum of one per day.

Yeah.

And by doing the minimum, the chances are you're going to do more than that per day. But it just keeps. Keeps the rhythm and the maintenance. Maintenance. And I think one of the challenges for a lot of people is that they set the expectation too high, too quick, and they don't build that resilience level up.

Yep. Plus, also, the goal is probably meaningless. You know, it's. If there is no meaning in what you're doing, if there's no purpose to it, you give up, you quit. You know, it's like I do an example in workshops. I get people to. If you. I don't know if it's going on video as well, but if you kind of get your hand and make a fist and then unmake your fists, it's kind of like blinking like a light type thing. I get people in workshops to start doing that. And I go, cool, right? Some people actively resist. Like, they won't even start doing it. It's like, cool. Some of you aren't even doing it. If I said to you, right, I want you to keep doing this for three hours, how many of you would be willing to do that? And most people are like, not really. And I go, okay. But if I said, through some mechanism, we worked out that performing that maneuver or that movement was pumping more air into the neonatal unit of the local hospital, how much? How long would you go for? And most were like, well, yeah, and some people who haven't started will start doing it. I'm like, it's not real. It's just hypothetical. But the depth of the meaning behind the thing that you want to do is basically intimately connected to how hard and fast and far you will go to achieve it. If it's. Which comes back to the work stuff, it's like, hey, Adam, could you fill in that spreadsheet and send it to Tim at Grow Good? Really can't be bothered, because I know that he doesn't really look at spreadsheets, and I don't like spreadsheets. And actually, this company's job, you know, the job I'm doing is meaningless. And I don't even know why we make these widgets.

It's like, yeah, our bodies and our minds will take the path of least resistance.

100%.

Yeah. And we need to find those motivations or that higher purpose individually or from a collective group that allows us to do it. Tim, I wanted, I just want to move on because.

I'm absolutely thrilled that you're on board as part of the Frank and fearless coaching team. I can't even remember how we met less than a year ago, but you know what it's like sometimes you just meet somebody and there's that instant connection. And it just goes to show how free flowing this conversation is. I'm just keen for you to just explain what sort of coach are you?

Nice. So like I say, I mean, you've probably picked up with my medieval history and frequent references to ancient philosophy. I try and blend ancient philosophy with a modern scientific research and it's amazing the number of overlaps, like the stuff that people writing down 2,000, 3,000 years ago that is now proven scientifically to be a thing. And you kind of go, that's quite cool. So, yeah, I try and blend some ancient frameworks, philosophies and ideas with modern research, but basically pose questions to you to like, you have the answer in you. You know, it's like, let's draw that out. And I try and do that in a manner that is using humor and a little bit of sarcasm and.

A little bit of, you know, poke every now and then. Come on, you can do this. You can do this.

And have you got any killer questions that you want to share?

I mean, where do you start? I guess it depends on what we're, you know, what we're talking about, to be honest.

Let's talk about purpose then. Is there one or two killer questions that you really ask people to help them understand?

I mean, like I say the ulta on the individual level that the ultimate question is, who could you be? It's like strip away all the pretense, all the, all the, all the resentment, all the anger, like become who you could be. That's. And I guess linked to that is why are you who you are? Like, go back and review your life today. What has made you who you? And this is kind of like the purpose journey summarized. There's like, who are you now? So know thyself. Who are you? Why are you who you are? Who could you be? And this is the hero's journey in three questions. Because the key point is like in the Harry Potter movement, you know, movies, it's the Phoenix, you know, it's like burn off all the bits of you that you've been carrying today that you don't want to carry any longer so that you can create the new version of you and step into who you could be. But those are three really hard questions that people don't want to go and think about.

And have you met anybody that has answered those three questions?

Totally. I mean this is what I work with people to help them go that. But I'm just doing this, I'm doing some one on one coaching with a. He's a senior exec in a large New Zealand company and I'm pushing him like and he, he's, we got to a point the other day he, he was almost in tears. He's like, I, I now know what's led me to be why I am and who I am for the last kind of 30 years. And I know where I now know. I know he's like, I know exactly where that's come from. And it's, it's, some of it is holding him back and it's like cool, you've, he's, he's a real Harry Potter fan. And I'm like, cool, you're down the toilet. You've just found the basilisk. You're going to cut its head off.

Tim.

The stories, the humor. It's no surprise that you and I are working so closely together because there's a similarity in the way that we work, the way that we think, but also the ability to help people understand to become better versions of themselves. Our styles are different, but there's similarities. I've loved this conversation. I know that we're going to get you back for another, another part two somewhere down the line. Any last things that you, any tools, tips, techniques, resources that you would recommend to the listeners?

Like I say, I've got a whole lot of free resources on my website. Happy to get a link to you so they can go and check out PRPs and B Corp and, and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think for me it just if you genuinely feel that you're a leader and you are genuinely part of this sort of frank and fearless community, get, get real with yourself and go and do, go and do this hard work. Like the, the clue is there. Like it's, it's like I say it's in all the, the highest grossing movies. Like what's the name the lady who, who wrote Harry Potter?

J.K. rowling.

J.K. rowling. Like it's no coincidence that she's a kabillionaire because she put the archetypal story that is the story of humanity at its best into a book that kids could understand and read. It's like the clues are there everywhere. You won't like. I think it was Tony Robbins who said no one, no one ever regretted doing good. And it's like no one will regret going on this journey of transformation. Yes, it's hard, but if you're a leader, that's what you signed up for, you know, like get amongst them.

Well, Tim, you are a leader and you definitely do good. I mean, good is even in your name. Your company name. The Grow Good Company. Tim, thank you very much. This has been the Frank and Fearless Leadership Podcast. I've been your host, Adam Harrens. Please subscribe and see you on the next episode.

Thank you.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening into my podcast. I hope you found it informative and inspirational. I'd love to know where you are on your purpose journey. And if you have any specific questions or people you'd like me to interview to help you on that journey, please do let me know. Also, feel free to connect with me on other social media platforms. You can check out all those links in the Show Notes below. And if you want to see how I might be able to help you specifically on your purpose journey, you can go and check out my website, www.growgood or drop me a line by email timrogood co. All those links will also be in the show Notes. I would genuinely love to hear from you. But anyway, until next time, go well and keep seeking that purpose fuel performance in your life.