#36 Better Business, Better Life - How To Be Best For The World

So, good morning and welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. Today I am joined by Tim Jones, who is the grow good guy and I'll let you explain a little bit more about what that is. But welcome Tim.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Absolute pleasure. Hey, look, Tim and I got introduced via a friend, as is always the case in little old New Zealand, and really enjoyed hearing his story. So I invited him onto the podcast to talk a little bit about that. But before we do that, Tim, would you just mind sharing with us a professional and a personal best in your life so far?

Wow. Professional best would probably be becoming. Having my company become a B corp pretty early on in the piece, which I guess we'll talk about a bit more later on. Yeah, personal best. I think it's probably being a hopefully slightly, slightly better than average dad to my nine year old daughter. I think that's what I'm, I'm aiming to try and be the best. But hey, we all have our moments and there isn't a rule book.

We are human indeed and there is absolutely no rulebook. I'm sure you're doing a fine job. Excellent. So, yeah, so B Corp, this is why we actually kind of got talking because we got introduced and you were. I didn't really understand. I'd heard of it, but didn't understand what it really meant. So I wonder if that might be a good place to start. What is a B Corp?

That's a great question. So a certified B corporation is generally, I say generally a for profit business because there are some exceptions, but in general it's for profit businesses that have been independently verified to be operating at the highest levels of transparency and accountability of their social environmental footprint. So it's kind of CSR on steroids or corporate social responsibility on steroids. The. To get certified, you undertake an initial self assessment, which is then verified by an external independent auditor from B Lab, which is a nonprofit organization with regional hubs around the world. So our regional one is in Melbourne, B Lab, Australia, New Zealand. So they verify your score independently verify your score. You need to meet a score of 80 out of 200 to get the certification.

Yeah. And it's, I guess it's corporate social responsibility to a deeper level where you actually have to prove the good that you're doing rather than, hey, look at us, we've offset our carbon. Aren't we doing great?

Yeah. Okay, that makes perfect sense. And you say it's like corporate social responsibility on steroids, but it's not just for large corporates. Right.

100%. No. So my business is a B corp. And my business is currently me and a couple of contractors that I engage, you know, from now and then all the way through to within New Zealand. We have Kathmandu is a B corp. They're a listed company. And globally you have companies of the size of like Ben and Jerry's or Danone, one of the world's biggest companies. But globally, the vast majority of B corps, in terms of, you know, the number of actual B corps are small to medium enterprises. So it is 100% ripe for businesses. I say this all the time to companies I'm either, you know, talking to about getting started with them or started working with them. It's not about size and kind of what you do. It's more about your mindset and your intent of what you want to do and what you want to prove that you're doing okay.

And so how did you get into it? How did you come across it?

That is a great question. And it's. I think my wife refers to it as my first early midlife crisis, where.

I used to work as a medical device sales rep. So I used to work for typically global multinational medical device companies such as Johnson and Johnson's and other smaller ones. And there were some activities going on in some of those companies that when you're within them, you kind of just go with the flow and, you know, they pay you well and you can kind of turn a blind eye. And I guess I was genuinely young and the big boys were making me do it. Kind of excuses.

Yeah.

But fundamentally it was the earthquakes here. So 2010 to 2011 earthquake sequence in Canterbury, and then 2012 birth of our daughter. I pretty much had what's called a subconscious awakening. So it's really, really common that if you have a near death experience or birth of a child or death of someone close to you, that you have this kind of existential wet fish to the face where you're given a real slap in the chops and you're like, whoa, what is this actually all about and what's going on? So I had that and I ended up leaving the medical device industry. And I thought, okay, maybe it's just the industry that I'm in, maybe I'll. I'll go and try something else. And so I ended up applying for about 60 different jobs across all different kinds of industries because I kind of had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up in that regard. And I ended up falling into a role really as general manager for a Firm of surveyors and engineers back in Christchurch. We'd moved up to Auckland post quake and yeah, general manager for this firm and some of the internal culture just wasn't great. And so I kind of started Googling, you know, is there some kind of HR program course that I can send a couple of people on and we could maybe sort of find some program that we could look at that would bring the culture up? And on that journey, I stumbled across this thing called B Corp certification. And I was like, okay, this is, this is pretty cool. It's kind of looking at your business beyond not just your environmental footprint, but how you treat your staff and some other metrics, which we can sort of unpack a bit more in a minute. And I thought, wow, this, this looks really cool. I wonder if there's, if there's one in New Zealand. And I had a quick look. I was like, damn it, there is one in New Zealand. I was like, I wonder if there's one in Christchurch. Hopefully there won't be one in Christchurch. It's like, damn it, there is one in Christchurch. And so I emailed the CEO, Steve Arda, who's now actually based in Tahoe, California. I said, hey, just stumbled across this B Corp stuff. I see that you are one. Like, can I come and have a chat? And so I booked in a 45 minute meeting with him at the head office, which used to be in Heathcote outside of Christchurch. And I left there maybe two and a half, three hours later, just with my mind.

Completely expanded that, you know, there was a group of companies and back in this was, this would have been 2013, you know, there was a group of companies globally that were aiming to be the best for the world, not the best in the world. And that was the thing I was looking for. It's like, I guess my time in the medical device and then in the, in the world of sort of commercial property, it just seemed to be that all anyone cared about was making money and they didn't care about whether people or the planet got destroyed on the journey. And that was the thing that really wasn't sitting with me. And I think that was where my daughter really played a part. Like, well, hang on a minute, like, what world am I creating that she's going to inherit? And do I want to be a part of one that she inherits where it's a great planet that's doing really, really well, or do I want to just, you know, skip a beat and let her be the one who has to pick up some pieces of stuff that's not going so well.

Yeah, fantastic. Actually, it's interesting because you just kind of struck a call with me. I realized that actually I had a similar kind of, I think, called a subconscious awakening on the death of my mom and my brother. It like, oh, my goodness, life suddenly became too short and what are we doing? And I too, as. As, you know, worked in the medical pharmaceutical industry for quite some time and I too put up with all the stuff that went on. And now I look back and go. I'm horrified, actually, when I look back at what we put up with here.

Totally. It's a really cool words. It's cool, it's poignant, it's devastating, it's enlightening. Called the Bleeding Edge. It used to be on Netflix. I'm not sure if it's on there, but it's a big expose of the medical device industry because a lot of people kind of go, again, I guess it's topical in the COVID you know, vax, not vax world. Yeah. You know, are skeptical of pharmaceutical companies. However, the medical device industry is actually bigger, more pervasive and less well known. So if you think in a hospital, every piece of equipment in a hospital is sold by a company, including all the bits and bobs that go into a human in an operation. And yeah, so that, that. Yeah. And typically that's the thing. We need that existential hit from outside to make us wake up and go, what's this all for?

Well, I'm pleased that we both had that in some respects. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about what it means then, you know, to be. Because you said that you have to go, is it 80 out of 200?

80 out of 200 points on this.

I have to say, I've got to be honest. So if I was at school, that wouldn't even be a pass. Right. So I've got to ask that question.

Totally. And everyone says this is like, how hard can this be? It's like, just turn up, you know, take the test. Yeah, good luck is what I say in return to that. So most companies who take the assessment, the self assessment for the first time score between 40 and 50 out of 200. So if you are a limited company whose, you know, your only fiduciary responsibility is to run solvently, you know, and trade within the laws of the land. Most of those companies giving it a first go score between 40 and 50 points. So to be even getting 80, you're doing well, I guess. Also for reference, there is no 200 point company in the world. Currently the highest I believe at the minute is about 170. Okay, so no one has got, you know, that close to 200 yet. So to be doing, to be, to be scoring eight at 80, you're doing significantly better than most of your peers. Yeah.

Okay, and so then tell me a little bit more about what's involved, like what are the things that are measured, what does it look like? And also I suppose I'm interested from business point of view, what difference does it make to the business? Because it's very, all very well and nice to get a little tick and go, yes, we've B Corp certified, but what does it really do?

Yep, totally. So the process, the.

The assessment itself looks at your business across five pillars, as I call them, or five sections. So it looks at your governance. So who owns your business? How transparent is your business? There was that whole thing a few years ago, was it the Monsec Fonseca, whatever it was called, where you know, all these companies seemingly were owned by one guy in the Bahamas and there were 50 shell companies and you know, no one knows where the money's going and no one's paying tax anywhere. You know, if you're doing that, you're probably not going to make a great people.

So the governance section, yeah is around sort of transparency and accountability. Who owns you? You get more points for being a worker owned cooperative, things like that, at sort of the highest level. Then it looks at your workers. So what, I guess what benefits beyond what is state mandated do you provide to your employees? So in New Zealand, companies typically score really well on the workers section because we have a lot of favorable trade winds. We have holiday, you know, maternity leave, paternity leave, we have a living wage, all that kind of good stuff. So yeah, the workers is worker benefits and, and entitlements beyond what is state mandated. Then it looks at your environment. So community impact. So community is where you capture supply chain as well as.

Opportunities that you're providing to perhaps people that are historically finding it hard to get employment. So do you provide opportunities for, you know, with disability or from other underrepresented groups to get employment within your company. It's also where you capture anything around charitable donations and giving back. Then there's the environment section which is pretty much, you know, the standard stuff. Your carbon emissions, your energy usage, where you get your energy from, like are you using renewable sources? It looks at your water usage and it will depend on whether, you know, if you're a manufacturer, clearly you're having A bit more of an environmental footprint than if you're a service business like mine. Um, then it has your customer model. So what are you selling? What. What product or service are you selling and to whom? I think that's the five. Is that right?

I've got five. Governance, community impact, workers, environment, customer model.

There we go. That's the one, yeah. And you had a. So, yeah. So what does this actually give you? Well, this is the thing. I think when you look broadly what's happening in the world, there are some systemic factors that are driving the rise of people wanting to prove and verify the good that they're doing. You know, climate change, we've got the cop 26 stuff going on. Covid, I think has led to a lot of business owners having that existential fish to the face. It's like, you know, if your business wasn't an essential business during lockdown, well, why does humanity need you? You know, if you're not genuinely needed by humanity, then why are you selling stuff and destroying the planet potentially? You know, at the worst, at the worst end, you know, globally, we've, we've got movements. You know, pick a social movement where someone has a concern around it. You know, there's inequality, there's race discrimination, there's gender equality, there's pay equity, there' you know, there are plenty of things that can be made better. So there's some systemic factors that I think are driving that. But for me, if you look at any business, there are four groups of humans that every business needs. You need customers, you need employees, you need investment and you need suppliers. And all four of those groups are increasingly demanding that you do better in your business. So the Colmar Brunson Better Futures Report is a really great report for some stats for Kiwi businesses. And year on year it's showing that customers and employees want to work for and buy from brands that can prove that they're genuinely contributing to something better in life than just trying to make money. The evidence is overwhelming there. Supply chain, you know, this is coming from, from two levels. You know, when you. We've got some bigger B corps coming through the process right now. One of the questions that you're asked as a B corp is, you know, look at your own supply chain and try and find small, independent, locally owned suppliers where possible. So there is going to be becoming, I think, an increasing tail wagging of dog where there is a large company in the middle who will want to start finding smaller independent suppliers locally that they can plug into. But the big one for Me really is sort of the investment side. And when the money people get B Corp, then you kind of know it's a real thing. This isn't just hug a tree, let's all sink and beyond, have a great time and try and save the planet. There is some economic reality to it. So in May this year, Anz Bank Credit, the first of this sort of lending vehicle of its kind in New Zealand, really at scale, where they created what's called an ESG back loan, so Environment Social Governance back loan for Kathmandu of 100 million Australian dollars. And that is basically indexed on Kathmandu, maintaining and increasing their B Corp certification score. Wow. So I used to give examples of this, of Danone in Europe. This is now big companies in New Zealand. And I get the impression that the team at Anz and other, you know, Kiwibank is now a B Corp co op bank. As a B Corp, I don't think we're far away from us seeing, you know, financing and investment vehicles where as part of the deal you need to be proving that you're doing more good as a business. And you know, Anz are basically saying B Corp was the one, that B Corp was the framework that they chose because it just gave legitimacy. It's independently verified and it's globally recognized.

Yeah. So like it's not just kind of waving the flag saying, hey, we're corporately social responsible, but we've actually got something that backs it up.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess just a couple of other things to point to this. So there's a study, there was a study done at the University of Ghent in Belgium a couple of years back or 2018. And they said, you know, using a panel data set of financial data of European firms that obtained B Corp certification between 2012 and 2018, this paper empirically shows that B Corp certification positively impacts the turnover growth rates. One year previous is one year post certification. So there are compelling arguments, you know, spiritually, metaphysically, just do the right thing. And there are marketing and HR and recruitment arguments. If you just kind of want to be a slightly better business and capture the goodwill, but actually if all you care about is making more money, then you should be a big bottom line too. So it's like there is no way out of this. You should just be a big.

So the Kathmandu example is a lovely example of, you know, that's obviously helped them with the bank stuff. I know that you actually work with companies to help them prepare for the B Corp certification. Can you give me an example of a company. Don't mention names, but a company you've worked with and the differences you saw before you started working with them and once they completed.

There's been some really good examples just recently where.

I think kiwis in general, we're pretty humble. We don't always sort of recognize the good that we're actually doing, which is one part of it. And the second part of it is the assessment. If you've never done the assessment before, it can be quite tricky. Some people can just do it and they can breeze through it, but if you're time poor and you're constrained and you just want to get it done, it can chew up a bit of time, which is why I've created that service. But what I typically find, one great example, it's a company that they sort of have nutrition and cosmetics.

As their products, and there was a whole lot of stuff that they were doing that for them was just business as usual. But when I was unpicking it, I was going, do you know how phenomenal it is that you're doing what you're doing here? And, and they, they couldn't recognize it because it's like the fish in the water. It's like, what do you mean? We just, we just do this. And. Yeah, yeah, and, and, and so there are some companies where they're doing a lot of good and they just haven't. They've kind of lost sight of the good that they're doing and going through the assessment and they have to kind of dredge this stuff up and bring it up and go, oh, yeah, we do do that. We do do that. And you can just see all the team, like the pride and the engagement and the excitement in the team having someone external coming, going, like, genuinely, you are doing some amazing stuff here, like, keep going, keep building on it. But equally, there's quite a few companies where they kind of go, well, we don't know what this question means, and I can sort of help unpack it. And they go, oh yeah, actually we did do that. We had that training person come in and run that program. Or, but didn't we, or didn't we help that company do this? And it's like, yes, that's exactly what this question is asking. And they're like, okay, so we are doing this stuff. Yeah, so yes, kind of. That's typically the two. Two that I work with.

Okay. And so then if somebody does it and they, they don't, you know, they don't score so well, do they then get feedback about what they could be doing to Improve. Like how does the whole process work?

Yep. So the self assessment works on the principle that you need to be showing a score of at least 80 out of 200 before you can click submit. And that's where people like me come into play. It's like if you're stuck, a lot of people ring me because they're stuck at 60 or 70 or they just, they've had a quick look at it and they just go, oh, I just need some help. I just want to do this quickly, so let's just get it done.

Yeah. So you can't click submit until you've reached at least 80.

Typically. Well, what can happen is you maybe you've got 85 and you. And you click submit. It's not uncommon that during the initial process of verification with your auditor, you will start losing points as they start going through and going, actually, okay, we're not, we're not so sure about this one or what have you.

Yep.

But that's where, you know, that's what I'm trying to offer as a service. That means that that's less likely to happen because you've kind of been almost, I guess I kind of pitch it like you have to take an exam. I've taken the exam multiple times and I've got the answer sheet. So I'm pretty confident I can get you a decent score that's not going to be, you know, going up and down too much. But yeah, typically you can't actually click certify unless you've reached the 80 out of 200 threshold. But I guess the every. Everyone kind of wants you to become a B corp. So it's not a negative scoring system, it's a positive scoring system. So you get recognized for the good that you are doing, not, you know, sort of punished for the good that you're. For the bad that you're doing, if that makes sense. So even, you know, the standards assessor will guide you and give you guidance and say, well, look, I can't give you these points right now. However, if you go and do this or if you can find me this spreadsheet or if you can show me an invoice of this, then I can give you those points.

That's what I was hoping for. So it gives you some positive ways going forward. And then once you're part of the B corp kind of family, I guess, of certified companies, is there support in that network? Is there anything else that you get from being certified?

Yep, we're definitely trying to get better at doing that. It's been, you know, for the first few years it was pretty hard with the, I guess, you know, not only the tyranny of distance that New Zealand suffers being at the bottom of the planet, but also we're a long skinny country. You know, we had lots of B corps in Christchurch. We had a couple in Wellington and a few in Auckland. So it was really hard for us to get together. And there is now a really strong community in Auckland. Mike Carroll, who runs an IT company called Brightly, he basically runs the community events in Auckland.

Yep.

So if anyone's in Auckland, they want to go and have a, you know, have a, have a look at what B Corp's all about. When they're out of lockdown in the near future, hopefully Mike will be getting some Stu Claire at Springload in Auckland. Sorry. In Wellington. She's been doing a lot of work trying to get the Wellington community going. And myself and Kath from Eagle, who were the first B Corp in New Zealand, we try and keep some events going in Christchurch. So we try. And there's like, they're called B locals. So there's these regular B local events where if you're, if you're kind of be curious, come along and have a, have a beer or whatever it is, you know the event that's being run. Yeah, yeah. So that's really a big part of it is trying to build that community of like minded businesses that just want to be better and you know, and go on a journey to do more good.

Awesome. That's fantastic. Okay, so how long have you been certified for yourself now?

2016 was my first one, so I certified 2016. It used to be that you recertified every two years. So I then recertified 2018 and then they've moved it to a three year recertification cycle due to basically overwhelming demand in the system. So I'm literally just going through my second recertification now. So it's kind of like the classic builder's house on the street. I'm spending all my time helping other people, which is why on Saturday I was working, going. Right, got to pull all these documents together and find all this, all this evidence for my own assessment.

Excellent. So if people are curious, you said obviously they can go the local events, the B local events. But is there anything online they can actually check out as well?

Yeah, totally. So B Corporation.com is the B Corp regional hub. I've got a ton of resources on my website. I've got a cheeky little ebook that's free to download on my website, we can put links in the show notes or I can send it through to you. What, whatever is easiest. Which basically summarizes, you know, the why, what and how of B Corp. Like, why is it a thing, why you should think about it and if you want to do it, how do you go and do it?

I'll definitely grab that from you. I'll put that into the notes afterwards. Yep. And so your website is.

Growgood Co. Growgood Co.

Fantastic. Okay, so one of the things I always ask is, you know, we're aiming to help people improve their lives and their businesses. What are the three kind of tips that. Or tools or things that you would like to share that have been really helpful in your journey or that you think could help people on their journey?

Yep. I think the overarching and critical one, which is maybe the thing that you and I both experienced with the existential wet fish, is get, get the alignment of you and your business. Like, if. If you don't actually know who you are and you don't actually know what you stand for, you're always going to be suffering, you know, from what I call the authenticity gap. You're going to be doing things at work and wanting to build a business that's not actually reflective of who you really, really are. But that's the hard, hard sort of mahi that needs to be done that so few people actually want to do. But, you know, I am. I and my business are one. You know, like everything that I think feels to be true, I get to express in my business and that is liberating and exciting in equal measures. Whereas know how I used to feel trapped in a corporate environment where I had to not say what I thought for fear of something happening.

Yeah. And I think, you know, whilst obviously I work most with business owners and their leaders, I think it applies even when you're in a job, though, like if you're doing something doesn't make your heart sing and find out what does because life is too short.

100%. Yeah, it was disturbingly awful statistic from UK government, UK gov or YouGov polls that they run. Again, this is maybe 2018, I think it was. 35% of British employees felt that their job provided them with no meaning and in fact it was contributing to destroying the planet. And we wonder why there's a mental health crisis. And equally for managers, I think it was 2017 or 2018. Again, a World Economic Forum survey, 50% of managers and leaders surveyed felt their job provided them with no meaning. It's like you're going to be there for 80,000 hours.

Please enjoy it.

I like it just a little bit. So yes, get that stuff under control. That would be my overarching one.

Do you have a sort of resource that you. I love the Start with why by Simon Sinek and he's got some good workbooks, things you can work through as well as the one that you use or recommend.

Yeah, I've got. I mean that's something that I work with people as well, is helping them work out. Well actually, who am I? I've got a cool little YouTube video. I can give you the link to that, which is basically like a 60 minute overview of that journey to purpose and finding out actually who you are. And there's so many. There's a lot of reading you can do that. I mean, you know, things like Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, you know, getting really down to sort of brass tacks and you know, what is it all about? And the, I mean ironically, some of the best things you can actually go and watch on movies, you know, it's that, that hero's journey.

Yeah, yeah.

Is the journey that we typically all need to go through to become the best version of us to go, you know, your homework is go and watch Star wars, go and watch Harry Potter, go and watch the Hobbit, you know, read the Hobbit, you know, so that would be. Yeah. Does that count as a piece of advice or that's.

No, no, I'm sorry, I'm holding you to just one. That's number two, please.

Number two. So my background was in sales and I do do sales training as well as the big corp and purpose stuff that I do do do more outbound sales activity. If you're in a business and you can, you can never. You think you're doing as much as you can, but you're not.

So, so just give me. So what do you mean by outbound sales activity? Because you know as soon as somebody says that to me, I go, oh my God. Cold calling, I can't do it. But that's not, that's doesn't have to be cold calling.

Yeah, well, I mean it is. I mean cold, but cold calling we're getting.

You should never be cold calling to sell on a call. The only reason you cold call is to ring someone to confirm their. Ask them to get an appointment.

Yeah.

Like don't be selling to Australia. If they go hey, well who are you? What do you want? And you end up having a conversation with them. Fantastic. But the reason for a cold call is to find, is to basically ring the, the assistant, the pa, the EA or whoever to get the details, to send an email, to book an appointment. That's the only reason you should be cold calling.

Yeah.

But just as an example, I sent 500 emails out a month ago about a campaign I was initiating. From that I got probably 30 to 40 replies. Yes. I wanted.

Yep.

About a year ago, I did another campaign. I sent a thousand messages via LinkedIn, got a hundred replies, got 30 clients.

Yeah. And it's funny, isn't it?

More of it.

Yeah. I think we get a bit nervous, like, what happens if I send it and they don't want to come? Because I'm under running an event at the moment. It's like if I invite somebody, they don't want to come. And then somebody said to me, well, if they don't want to come, they can ignore it totally. Okay.

I was doing some. Doing some coaching with a client late last year and I said to, you know, it's a challenge for you. You need to go and send at least 10 outbound emails this week to potential clients and check back in a week later. She'd undenard. She'd spent five days procrastinating. Day six, she sort of sent five. Day seven, she sent five. I said, how did it go? She said, yeah, I'm absolutely gutted. I said, oh, well, what happened? She said, well, I sent one email to a national company that I've been really wanting to do some work for, but I've just been hesitant in sending the email. They. They replied almost immediately and the, and the reply was basically, if you'd messaged me yesterday, I would have chewed your arm off. However, we found someone and we're all good.

Oh, no.

And it's like, that's, that's the corollary. Corollary to it or the contrary to it. It's like they might be sitting there going, oh, my word, if only there was someone out there who could solve this. And that could be you.

I love it. Thank you for that. And the third and final.

Oh, I don't know. This is tough. This is tough.

Earning a cape.

Yeah, I know. I think for me it's just, I guess it bring it back to the B Corp and the purpose stuff, it's like, just be better, you know, aim to be the best for the world, not the best in the world. I think we, we have this weird dynamic, particularly in New Zealand, of the whole tall Poppy syndrome and, you know, not not wanting to. To be the best. But it's like I'm. In some ways I'm kind of cool with that because tall poppy just for the sake of tall poppy makes no sense. Like who, who cares how big your business is or what's your revenue? You know, a question I ask people in workshops quite often is when we're talking about purpose versus money, it's like, cool. Well, Nate, can you name the company that Was listed number three on the NZX in March 2013? No, of course you can't because no one cares. But you can remember a brand or a company that went out of its way to do something good, that was meaningful, that made a contribution and that would be my thing is just really think about how can your organization make a dent in the universe? You know, you're going to be remembered for the thing that you did, you know, how you made people feel rather instead of, you know, what you did and how you did it.

Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah, that's fantastic. Hey, look, some really great things that I will make sure that I get hold of that YouTube video and your ebook link and we'll put a link into your growgood co where you've got other lots of useful information, right?

Yes. There's a whole free resources page you can have at it and download to your heart's content.

Wonderful. Now if people want to get in contact with you, Tim, how would they get hold of you?

Just. Yeah, through the website. You can book a book an appointment to have a call with me or genuinely, let's go old school. The easiest thing is to ring me email. Just.

Please, please, someone fix email. Do something. Yeah, my phone number's on my website. It's 021288-2363. Call me when you're stuck in traffic. If you've listened to the podcast us, call me afterwards and we'll have a chat.

That sounds fantastic. Hey look, thank you so much for your time. That's been really informative for myself and I'm sure for others as well. Love what you're doing. I'm going to go and have a look at it myself and see if we can sign up. So thank you.

Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity.

No worries. I look forward to talking in soon. Thanks, Tim.