#4 Catherine Van Der Meulen - THE Entrepreneurial Woman With Purpose!

Foreign.

And welcome to In Pursuit of Purpose with me, your host, Tim Jones, the grow good guy.

Wow.

So that one. Another firecracker. I thought Michelle Sharp's interview was good, but I hate to say it, Michelle, I think Katherine has pipped you on this one. This is a really cool one. We go really deep on purpose on this one. And this is exactly what I wanted this podcast to be about. So I'm super excited. We are really deep here with Catherine on her journey in pursuit of purpose and getting really clear on what is purpose and what isn't purpose and why this. This idea of purpose is so important for you as an individual. And if you're a business owner, business leader, why it is absolutely vital you get your head around this. And I think Katherine goes a long way to helping us unpack this. So, yeah, sit back, relax, get yourself a cup of tea or. We have had feedback from one viewer. Her preference was the genotonic. Depending on what time of day you're in and where you're at. Sit back, put your feet up, relax, and check this amazing interview with Katherine out. Please do give me some feedback. I'd love to hear your thoughts on your journey, going in pursuit of purpose, or any feedback on your thoughts from listening to me and Katherine talk today. Go well and keep going in pursuit of purpose.

Yes. And so with me today is Katherine van der Melen. So a good morning as it is. Good morning. I hope, to Catherine.

Good. Good morning. Depending on where you are in the world. Yes, good morning.

And what time you might be listening to this podcast. So there we go.

Lovely.

So, Catherine, I guess the reason I was really intrigued to get you onto my podcast, you are an amazing human and you're doing some really cool things, but I also feel you've got a pretty cool backstory in terms of how you came to being, I guess, more purposeful in your life. And I know maybe towards the end we will talk about some cool things that, well, you're scheming on, but you've managed to rope me in on the schemes as well, so that's all pretty cool. Yes, maybe just for those. I'm sure most people will know who you are, but for those few people who've been living in, you know, under a rock or in a cave, just. Yeah. Who are you and what's a bit of your backstory? What got you to where you are?

Yeah, so you can probably tell by my accent I am an Aussie living in New Zealand. So hailing originally from Sydney with a. With a Dutch background, And I'm discovering that there are a lot more Dutch in New Zealand. There must have been a good migration policy many moons ago. So it's really nice to see the Dutch contingents over here.

Totally. Well, with Able Tasman, you can't go. You can't get more Dutch.

That is true. That is true. It's probably why they all ended up in the Marlborough. But yeah, we've been living in New Zealand for the last year. But I guess in the lead up to that, working in my family business for about 15 years and I, you know, I went, I started to go on that purpose journey because I really discovered in hindsight after we sold that business, what that business looked like with purpose and what that business looks like without purpose. And I really wanted to understand what were the kind of key fundamentals of that. And I think at the time also I was reading lots of Robin Sharma books and he was very much on that purpose journey. And I then started to develop a program for teenagers in school called discover your purpose. Because I thought if I'm only really discovering my purpose. Well, I actually thought back then I was starting to discover my purpose. And I probably think I probably wasn't at all. And I thought if I need to, if I had to go on this journey to discover my purpose, how could we support more teenagers to go on that journey to discover their purpose? And so while I was propped up in bed just giving birth after I gave birth to my son, had lots of time on my hands, as you do when they're newborns, and I started to write a program called discover your purpose, which was about supporting teenagers. And I facilitated that in two very different areas. One quite an underprivileged area in Sydney, and one a very wealthy area in Sydney. What I realized was, you know, kids had the same issues, teenagers had the same fundamental issues, and they really didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives. And it was about supporting and educating them to go on this purpose journey, to find what they truly loved, what they were passionate about and what they were interested in and going on that journey and actually building a career in adverted commas, if you can even call it a career in the 21st century. A career or a life that actually was very purpose, purpose led. But then I ended up in an organization that wasn't.

Practicing what I was forever preaching about. And I worked in that role in Sydney for a number of years and I built really great relationships. But I was looking back at that one New Year's Eve as we Always do. And we set our New Year's resolutions and I said, this year I want to work within an organization or my own organization that's really built around my purpose. And then a year on from that made the decision to move to New Zealand and I sat back living in Marlborough with a bit more time on my hands and reflecting on how I wanted to live and what was important to me, and went back on the journey to really understand my values, embed my values, and then build an organization that were based on around my values. And interestingly, what happened in the last year was that I then only started to attract people into my life that had similar values that were on a similar journey. And we all wanted to go on that same journey together to support and empower each other. So that's probably been my journey to date around the purpose piece.

Very cool. I like the way that you kind of just say, you know, you're part of a family business, but that family business was.

The family business was supreme.

So it's just a little one.

A large fast fashion business. I look back, obviously in hindsight and shake my head at the fast fashion world and truly don't believe in fast fashion. I think it's obviously since selling that business and educating myself on the truth of fashion that I now go, God, what were we doing?

But, you know, we are a lot wiser, I would say, these days and a lot more education. And you can't, you can't unsee and you can't unlearn some of those things that you learn the truth about industries. And once you have that truth and once you do learn what that is, you need to be able to follow your heart and follow your values. And that certainly wasn't aligning to my values and probably why I always was in conflict in that business because it wasn't aligned to my values.

That's. That for me is the really interesting part, because this is the common theme that I find with people going through the, you know, the pursuit of purpose journey is that at some point something happens and there's. There is this like, real epiphany. And I use epiphany with the semi religious connotations because I think you do have this awakening and it's like, literally, oh my God, how did I not see everything that I've just been a part of? And that's really, really interesting. Like, for me, there was a very specific moment. Like, I remember it clear as day. Was there a specific moment for you or did it just kind of creep up on you over a series of events.

It probably did creep up on me, I think as I educated myself and I actually know there was probably quite an epiphany moment when I realized that my values. I'd been appointed to a CEO role of another fast fashion business. It was based in Queensland, I was based in Sydney. I had a four month old baby when I got when I joined this business. And I was traveling every Monday morning at 4am up to Queensland. And there was a point where there was a program being run called for the Fashion Revolution and the Pro. And the campaign was to wear your clothes on the inside out to show that you're in support of being transparent about where your clothes were made and nice. The Fashion Revolution and this organization at the time didn't want to be a part of that campaign. And I truly believe that was probably my light bulb moment because I was like, but why don't they want to be a part of that campaign? Why don't they want to share the truth of where their products are made and being transparent? Three months later the investor pulled out of that business and my role was made redundant. And I came back to Sydney with my head between my tail between my legs and I was like, holy hell, what am I doing? You know, have come from the fast fashion world, you know, now being made redundant from this, from this role and what am I going to do with my life? And I went to a conscious capitalism event and I went to a B corp event and I was like, hallelujah, I have finally found that because someone had said to me, you need to find organizations that have the aligned values to you. And I was like, I didn't really even know what my aligned values were. And I was like, well, I'm going to go and discover what's important to me. And I think also when you have children, your head changes about that because you go, where am I going to spend my time if I'm not able to spend it with my children full time? Not that I would want to spend all that time with my children. If I'm really being truthful, if I'm taking that time away from spending that with my children, I want to make sure that I'm spending that time with, in the most valuable way that I'm working for good people, around good people, with good people, for good people. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to wait. I don't, I don't want to waste my time working with schmucks anymore 100%.

And that, you know, the birth of our daughter, me and my wife, that, that was a pivotal moment for me. It was. And I think it's interesting. I think the male, female experience of having a child is, is different, clearly.

Definitely. Yeah.

And my, my take is, from my experience is that, you know, my wife, she became very, you know, that, that mothering, protection, protection driven instinct, like, was there literally overnight. And it's like, it's, it's about making sure, you know, this baby has everything that it needs around it in the house. But for me, my focus went massively externally and it was like, oh, my God, like, what, what am I doing? I'm working in an industry that is not values aligned, that is actually causing some horrendous outputs. And I'll put a link to my backstory in the medical world rather than chewing up time talking about that. But for me, it was like, what am I doing to contribute to the better, a better world that my daughter's going to inherit one day? And that was, that was a real moment for me. Yeah. So it's interesting. Interesting.

So, because I had always thought, you know, I had always thought and fantasized about my children, you know, us carrying the family business through and my children taking it over. And I was like, in hindsight, I'm like, I'm actually really happy. Although I've done a lot of grieving about it, that I've, I've found a place of peace about it, that we sold the business and now it's somebody else's journey because actually, I don't want to pass that legacy onto my children because I'm not proud of that industry in any way, shape or form, because it doesn't do. You know, there's only small parts of it that are doing the right thing by the world and I don't want my children to be a part of that. So that was, you know, another great highlight, moment of realization.

Totally.

And it's. I love that you're saying grief because, because for me, you know, this, this is the thing, this is the journey and it's this to, to really get to purpose. And I want to just dip into a couple of things you mentioned. What one was where you said, like, you kind of thought you had purpose, but it wasn't really purpose because I think that's, that's a real risk for a lot of people. And I think there's a lot of right now, you know, In New Zealand, 2020, you know, it's going to be the year of purpose. And I think there's A lot of people selling snake oil purpose. It's like any, any new boom industry, you know, everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon. But I guess before that.

I guess the topic that you touched on there is this idea of sacrifice. It's like the me who I am is, is fitting badly into the world that as I see it, and I have to create a new version of me. And to go and do that, you know, it's. It's the phoenix. You have to burn off the feathers that, you know, aren't supporting you, not letting you fly. And I think that that's. That for me is one of the crucial parts of the purpose journey. And if, and if you haven't done that and you're not willing to do that, I think that's where you end up in this false purpose, like the phony purpose, where it's like, oh yeah, life's all good. I kind of have some values and I think I'm doing okay.

Yeah. So just maybe just explore that kind of, you know, so you kind of had this idea of purpose popped up and, and then you kind of thought you had your purpose, but it wasn't. What. Just tell me a bit more about that.

Yeah, I think the purpose piece is an ongoing, an ongoing journey, I don't think. You get to this place and you go, okay, I've got my purpose, I'm done.

Exactly.

I'm gonna pack that away and.

Live on it every day. But I think it kind of. It. What's the word I'm looking for it. The flower opened when I connected and understood who I was.

Yes.

And who I truly was as a person.

Yes.

Not by who my parents created me to be. Not by who they wanted me to be. Not by who my teachers wanted me to be. Not by who my ex husband wanted me to be, but who I was. And my life truly changed when I connected to who I was. And I did a 21 day online meditation with Deepak Chopra and Oprah. And that, you know, was 20 minutes every day of meditation, but then probably 30 minutes every day of journaling.

Yes.

And the quest and the questions that they would ask about four or five different questions to unpack who you are, then to build and then to build that and support you in that growth to becoming who you are. And then how do you then implement that into every stage of your life? And I think by knowing who, the truth of who you are and then connecting to that. I think it all lies within us. We've just taken on other people's crap on our journey that's not actually ours. We've taken on our parents stuff. We've taken on our, you know, partners things are they actually. That's not our journey. That's their stuff. They've just passed it on to us thinking that we want it, but do we want it? Let's just shed and peel it off. And then you get back to that very raw state. And then you can go, hallelujah, this is who I am. Yeah.

Love it.

I think that's probably the. Was probably that changing time when I let go of everyone else's preconceived ideas or peel back those layers that weren't actually mine because they didn't serve me anymore. They weren't mine to begin with. They were somebody else's.

I 1 billion percent agree with that. And that for me, you've hit on the crux of, you know, finding your purpose or connecting to your purpose. Like you said, 100. It's there within you. It's just that all this other has been laid on top of you.

Yeah.

And these societal expectations, peer expectations.

Yeah.

And.

Yeah.

And that really is. I'm. I'm just in the middle of running a coaching group right now. And, you know, this, this was the hard part for everyone. It's like. And I guess this is where when you're getting into, like, the Jungian psychology of it, like, it's staring into the abyss. You need to stare into those. Those potentially dark parts of you that you don't connect with and, and you've got to try and work out, well, is that actually me? And if that is actually me and I need to change that, okay, that's one thing. Or is this version of me, like you say, being put in there by someone else? And what, what, I mean, one horrific stat that I like to pull out every now and then is you look at the top five regrets of those close to death, and number one is, I wish to live the life true to myself, not the life that others live for me. And you sort of go, that's the number one regret of the dying as formulated by a lady working in a hospice. And now that, to me, is the essence of why so many people are living a life lacking in meaning and purpose because they're living a life to the expectations of a lot of other people. And I genuinely feel this is the taboo topic in New Zealand in particular, where we have still some of the highest suicide rates for youth and guys my age in, you know, 40s to 50s. And I think the Mental health is a part of it, but I think more fundamentally is people just have a severe lack of meaning and purpose in their life. And that's sort of part of my mission. Man, that's really cool.

And listen, there's a wonderful chapter in a book called the Untethered Soul. The Life of Me, I can't remember, Michael, who wrote it. Thank you. But the chapter really kind of goes through the who I am piece. And it goes, well, who we are. And I would automatically in my past go, I'm a mother. I am a businesswoman. I am a daughter, I am a sister. I am an entrepreneur. I'm a social activist. I'm a change. Like, I'm all these things, but they're not actually who I am. They're the roles that I'm playing in my Personas. Yeah. And then you peel back one layer back, and you go, okay, well, who am I? These are my values. I am X, Y, and Z. And, you know, and then it's actually. There's probably four different layers that you actually need to peel back and go, well, to get to that root, to who you are. And while I was doing a yoga retreat last year, I probably got to layer three. I haven't been. And I probably need to reread the chapter to reconnect to going to that layer four. But I think that's when those nice awakening moments you get can get to. Because we're not just the roles we play, but we are actually the people at who we are at our core, and they're based on values. But are they actually our values, and are they actually our beliefs? That's where you've got to get past and go, what? What is actually me?

Exactly. That. Exactly. And that was a big piece of work for me, if anyone is really curious to get into that. The one, the piece that really worked for me was it was a thing called Proust's questionnaire. I'll put a link to that in the notes. And this is sort of Marcel Proust. I think he was like, you know, the philosopher writer from, I think, about the late 1800s. And around that time, obviously, there was no Facebook and Instagram and Netflix. So what people would do is they would write a questionnaire, they would come up with a series of questions, and then they'd print them off and hand them out to their friends. Their friends would go away, they'd fill out the answers, and then they'd come back and discuss them. And what's really interesting about Prowse Questionnaire is it's very frequently used by fiction writers to create characters. So it's 35 questions that get to the absolute heart and soul of how do you want this person to think and feel? But if you do it in a self reflective manner, it actually gets you to think about, well, actually who am I and what do I really think and feel? And this is what I call the authenticity gap. It's like there's this version of me that's being created and then there's this underlying. And this is where there's some. I'm part of this group called the Global Purpose Leaders. And we, you know, some, some people come at purpose from a spiritual lens and some people come from I guess, the rational lens or the psychological lens. But in my, my experience hanging out with this group and, and the more I read about purpose, it, it's like you seemingly, the more layers you, you unpack, you're trying to get back to like the soul of you as a human. Like what are you? And there's some really interesting, you know, theories and research around. I mean.

I have been down a bit of a Jordan Peterson rabbit hole recently. Some people will go, oh, yabu sucks. Tim's awful for listening to him. Others will go, yeah, he's, he's a legend. But one thing that really gripped me in one of his, I've listened to all his lecture series recently and one thing that really gripped me was he said, you know, curiosity, like what is that? You know, you become curious about something but you don't know why that is. Like, why does something grab you? And we, we don't know that we can't, we don't know what that level of consciousness is and why something instinctively grabs you. And, and his theory is like, that's the basis of the soul. It's like you cannot get more innate than this thing is grabbing my attention and I don't know why. And yeah, so yeah, you're 100 on the right path I think on what you're doing. And you're right, you know, this, this is a journey and this is I guess why I'm saying go in pursuit of this thing because you might, you probably won't get to the end of the journey. And that's cool.

And that's part of the fun.

Well, exactly. And within that I think that is actually where there is a lot of meaning to be found. It's like I know that I'm never going to win this. Whereas I think that's, that's my take on the material world of you Know, chasing the big, big dollars and the big house and all the rest of it is like, you can achieve it. And that's part of the problem because you've achieved it. And it's like, well, now what? Now I need a bigger one. Yeah, yeah. Really fascinating. So that's cool. Yeah, I think that's really cool that you recognize and because I think there's a. A lot of people out there will. Will be thinking, well, you know, I've got purpose. My purpose is I work in my job to earn money to keep my family going. And it's like, that's not purpose. That's survival. And yeah, very, very big difference between, yes, there's an element of sacrifice and service that you're doing, but that's just called being an adult. Yeah, that's not human purpose. Yeah, that's. That's human. Whether you were in a modern capitalist society or if you were, you know, in a tribe somewhere in the Serengeti, you'd still be working every day to help your, you know, your family survive. So I think that's a really key thing. Like if. Yeah, if you're listening, if you think you've got purpose, just really check on that. Yeah. So what. What does purpose mean to you then? This, this word, I feel it's. It's a word that's been used by a lot of people. I think. I think if we looked at the Google, you know, search trend of purpose over the last few years, I think it's rapidly going up. What does it mean to you, really?

For me, it's quite simple. It's just the why. It's the why you do what you do. And why do I get up every day to make stuff happen? And what do I want to. What do I want to achieve? And what is that kind of burning desire with me of what I want and what's important to me and how I want to live? And it really is that simple. Why are we doing what we're doing? Like, if you were to look at any of those fast fashion brands, why are they doing what they're doing? There's no why behind that. That is just making money.

Yeah.

So, you know, but then you've got these authentic and transparent and wonderful organizations who are, you know, making change in the world and advocating for, you know, social injustices and environmental impact. And, you know, there's a why behind that. And I think in the 21st century, we don't have an opportunity to not be building businesses without a true purpose. And a purpose is not to make money. That's an outcome. So we need to make sure that every organization that is designed now and in the future or any business that has been designed to date really needs to take that helicopter view and go, what is our reason for being? Why are we here.

And how we actually going to make it a viable product or service that people actually want, people actually need, that the world needs. The world doesn't need more plastic crap. The world doesn't need more products. Do you know what I mean? So we can 100% we can get back to really simplify simple journey. Let's do things that people want and need or build services that are a vehicle to change. You know, you see a lot more when I was speaking to Westfield Center Group when they were opening their Newmarket.

Shopping center, they were talking about how many more service oriented businesses that there are, you know, and there's a trend around that as well. When I went back to Australia a couple of times last year and where my gym is, the street where my gym is, they were all used to be physical retail stores selling stuff but now they're all service oriented businesses. Their travel companies, their eyebrow bars, they're, you know, all the things we need. Eyebrow bars, a whole bar for eyebrows.

What about the eyelashes? They feel so left out.

Those eyelashes, those extensions and all that kind of stuff. So they've all become more service orientated businesses and I do believe that is the future because people don't need more stuff, you know. So I really think, you know, it is as simple as why. And if we continually question ourselves why do I do this? Why am I this way? Why? Why, why, why, why? We really get to that truth and then being able to build that purpose.

Love it. Yeah, I think 100% agree. You know, it's, it's, I guess the definition I run with is part of purpose is, you know, your reason for being. So it's that why. But the other part of it is what's your contribution? And yeah, obviously being a white middle class guy going to a posh school in the UK, I'm a big fan of Jurassic 5, old school hip hop and they have a great song called Contribution and it's quite simply, you know what you either part of the problem or part of the solution, what's your contribution to life? And it's like it's so simple and I mean because we met up in Christchurch a couple of weeks ago and we'll get on to why we met up a little bit later on but we had, we had a really Interesting discussion around a big brand called Coca Cola. And, you know, we were just sort of saying, you know, if you start looking at some businesses like that and you sort of go, well, actually, what is your contribution? Because you're extracting water from the planet, you're bottling it, you're putting it in plastic. And I did see recently that I think it was at least Coke. New Zealand said they're not stopping using plastic bottles because they, you know, they don't want to.

And then they're shipping this product all around the world. And the product is basically sugar in a can that makes you fat and gives you diabetes. And what. What was really interesting is after we had that conversation, are you a follower of Mind Valley?

Yeah, of course.

So Vishal Lukiani, the CEO, he actually made a video last week, and I'm like, damn it. He beat me to it. But I think equally, I didn't. I. I felt like I didn't have the balls to actually go and make that video. But now he's done it. I'm gonna make my own one. And he's basically calling them out on the same thing. And I think, okay, this is really interesting because people are generally waking up and kind of going, well, yeah, hang on a minute. Actually, when I strip away your advertising and marketing and you trying to tell me that this is happiness in a can, which is genius marketing, actually, this thing's not good for me, and it's not good for my friends and family. It's not good for the planet. So I think there's a really interesting transition where we're going into, where there will be some businesses who lose their mandate to exist. And I think that's. That's going to be. There's going to be blood on the floor. You know, there's going to be. Unless people, you know, CEOs and business leaders and business owners realize this. And it's like, okay, well, how do we. How do we take what we've got? We've got resources. How can we use those to contribute? What's your thoughts on that?

And I think the losing the mandate to exist is a natural culling of business, really. And as we go through different cycles and as we become more educated as consumers and as we demand more information, as you know, we're asking these organizations to show up more. It's going to be a natural process for these organizations just to fall by the wayside, to not exist. To not exist in the future. How the hell, excuse my language, McDonald's, for example, still exists. How does KFC still exist? You know, you think of these huge conglomerates of brands that, what is their true reason for being? Are they delivering healthy, nutritious food to adults and children? You know, there's, there's so many organizations like that that, you know, that, you know, will naturally.

No longer exist in the future as we become more educated. But we need to continue that education because there's a huge market that's not. Not educated. And they still see that McDonald's has white bread and lettuce and meat and tomatoes in their hamburger. So they're healthy.

Indeed.

Well, I guess. And there goes any hope of sponsorship from McDonald's Coke for my podcast, but, hey, probably not.

Listen, I think I would have to. I might have to ditch you. I might have to ditch our conversation.

If you do, that would be reasonable and expected.

Yeah. And it's interesting, I think, you know, we sort of touched on that transparency point. I remember it was maybe three years ago now, there was a lady actually in Christchurch and she wrote a letter to Farmers, the clothes retailer and, well, department store, for want of a better word. And she was like, hey, you know, I buy my kids clothes from your store. I'm just really concerned as to where you're getting your clothing from. Could you please let me know? And their reply was, you know, dear madam, thank you so much for your letter. However, that information is classified. He's gonna go, hang on, like, you're not making, you know, nuclear weapons here. You're, you're importing and selling clothes. And if you're not willing to tell me how, where, when and why, you know, that's all happening, then I'm going to presume the worst.

Yes, of course.

So, and I, I mean, I've also, I did some work for a great, we Kiwi company called, well, they used to be called Conscious Consumers. They're now called Coco. I'll put it. So many links I'm gonna have to put into the, the notes here. And we had some great conversations with some big retailers in New Zealand, excuse me, a few years ago, and quite a few of them were doing some good, but they didn't want to put themselves out there for fear of being exposed for not doing as much good as they could do. And I find that a really interesting thing that, whether it's a Kiwi thing, you know, we're relatively humble bunch, we don't like to talk about the good that we are doing, but I find that quite interesting and I think it'll be interesting to see this year whether More companies do start talking about the good that they're doing and saying, look, yeah, we know we're not perfect and I think this is the thing, none of us are perfect. But hey, every day I'm waking up and trying to do the best I can and make a more positive contribution than I did the day before, please support me. Yeah, I think that's gonna be an interesting trend to watch this year.

And as long as they're on the journey, you know, I always say, you know, organizations that come to me and they say, but it's too hard to go on this journey completely. And I say we'll just do 1% this year, do 1% next year. And if in the next 10 years you've done 10% and you've made valid change in your organization towards that journey, that's a really good start. It's better than. Better than zero.

Exactly.

And you know, if you're looking at say for example, the B Corp certification and I think that's a really wonderful place to start and even if you don't want to become a B Corp certified company, if that's not important to you and it's, you know, a lot of organizations that I've spoken to, it's not, I can't understand it as much as I preach it. Why, why, why? I agree why you wouldn't want to go on the B Corp. Jo, But I think it's a really good measure of, you know, all those different areas of focus to really start to look at and go, well, I only got for this section, I only got 10 out of 20. So what are the, what is that gap between 10 and 20 that I can then go and work on to make my organization better? How can I look at how, you know, my workers are, what my workers wages are? How can I look at our water usage and our environmental impact of toxicity and all the different layers that are obviously ask you those series of questions. I think it's a really good place for organizations to start to look at the depths of their organization through the lens of, through the lens of B Corp.

Exactly that. And I think you're right. You know, if you, if you don't start doing this today, you know it's going to be another day. If not, then it becomes another year before you do start it and then you're going to be even further behind the trends that's happening here.

And then you just be another one of those organizations that finds themselves going under dinosaur and not understanding why exactly that.

And I think. And you Hundred percent right. You know, you know, this, the very word purpose, it's ethereal, it's hard to grasp, you know, and I think there are companies there that are kind of, we know we need to do this, but we just don't know where to start. And it's just starting, you know, reach out to a Catherine or reach out to a team or find someone who understands us a little bit more than you and just, Just start. Because I think, as we've alluded to on the. On the personal side of things, once you get going on the Purpose journey, you kind of go. Go further on the journey. And I think this is. It's the same thing with organizations like Start where you're at. Just start educating and upskilling yourself and start. Even start to understand what purpose is and what it could mean to your business. And as you go on that journey, you will then, you know, you'll be moved then in the right direction and the path will unfold.

Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly, you know, when I was made redundant from that role. And I came back and I went to the B Corp event and I went to the Conscious Capitalism event and I started to connect with more people and I really just wanted to have conversations with those people. And I went to 10, 20, 30B Corps in Australia to learn more about them, what was important to them, what their purpose was, what their drivers were, what their challenges were, and really starting to unpack those. And then, you know, I did a university degree a couple of years ago, and all the businesses that I put forward as my case studies were all B Corp certified companies. So that gave me the, really, the depths and the knowledge to explore B Corp through their worlds and to be able to interview those CEOs and to be able to interview people in those organizations to get to that truth. And I really, you know, I made that my mission because that was important to me and I wanted to learn from those kinds of people. I didn't want to go and learn from brands like Victoria's Secret or Abercrombie and Fitch because they weren't doing the right thing in the world. So why the hell would I want to study them? I wanted to study organizations that I wanted to see in our future.

Nice.

Yeah, super cool.

So why do you think, why do we need purpose? Like, why is it. Why do individuals and organizations need this stuff?

Why do we need purpose? That is a very good question. It is quite a hard thing to articulate. I feel much happier living and breathing my purpose every day. Living and Breathing based on my values, making conscious decisions based on my values, not working with certain organizations because, because of those things, and making harder decisions based on that. So I think the reason why we do need purpose is to be happier as humans. And I always thought if I could walk into an organization every single day and every single person in that organization was happy, imagine what our world would look like if every person in our world was happy and we unpacked their stuff and they were all living their purpose and they were all working with organizations that were, you know, living their purpose. And I just think that we would create a world of happier humans because they were doing things that they loved. Imagine an entire organization doing what they loved. Imagine how productive they would be if they were doing what they loved. So I think, you know, for an organization, if you want to create happy, productive, healthy work environments that, you know, get more shit done, basically, then purpose is a key journey to that. And human purpose and self actualization is a key to that as well. Because if you don't support people to find their self actualization, they're not going to help your organization to find their, that self actualization.

Love it. And I think you're 100% right. Again, you know, we, we can barely comprehend how amazing a world of fully, you know, aligned.

Integrated humans all acting out from a place of, you know, love and connection and service and contribution. Like we, we, we've never, I, I don't feel, I don't know, maybe in prehistory, maybe we did have a time like that and we, and we don't know about it, but certainly you look throughout, you know, recorded history, there doesn't really seem to be a time.

Where we can clearly identify where this has been the case.

And I think definitely agree.

Yeah, that's my kind of call to humanity is, you know, you've got to go and do this stuff. But as, as we both know, it's hard.

Yeah.

You know, because you've got to basically unpack the more than likely the world that you hold to be true currently. Yeah, it's not true.

Correct.

And we don't like doing that kind of stuff. We quite like, you know, going and doing something else instead, like maybe self medicating or watching Netflix or whatever.

And I think what you said before about looking at it from a place of love is a key part to that. And I always use the quote by John Mackey, when John Mackey from Whole foods in the U.S. whole Foods Market in the U.S. was sitting under the willow tree with Oprah on Soul Food Sundays. And she said, what's love got to do with business, John? And he's like, love has absolutely everything to do with business. And if you were to go to any CEO in the world and go, well, if you just bring some love into your business, that go, this woman is on drugs.

Yeah, yeah.

But I truly believe if we could build more love and more happiness into our businesses that people would be happier, more content, more productive, you know, so that love piece is such a crucial part of connecting people and building great relationships. Why can't we build love into organizations and love with purpose?

Exactly. Because I think, you know, the, the other path doesn't end well. You know, the, the constant competing against others for, you know, pointless outcomes. You know. Yeah, people doing relatively pointless, you know, the rise of the whole phenomena of bullshit jobs where, you know, people are just, I mean this is a really horrific stat from the UK. It was a British government poll about three years ago. I think 40% of those surveyed felt that their job provided them with no meaning and they actually felt the world would be better if their job didn't exist. And then we, and then we wonder why we have, you know, a mental health crisis and a suicide crisis. It's like to me it's seemingly obvious. Maybe that's, maybe that's a T shirt. We should get made up, you know, less spreadsheets, more love.

Definitely spreadsheet today and go and hug her, hug a colleague. But you know, it is interesting that it's.

You know, the idea of loving people at work. When you or I say it seems quite natural. But when like you say, you, you imagine that at a high level board meeting of an NZ listed company and that, that would probably come across as relatively woo woo, but you sort of go, this is, this is a, this is one of the most basic human needs. Just.

Yeah.

And you know, my take on, on why a lot of people are living, you know, this life of rampant consumerism and materialism is it's that deep seated need for love and approval, particularly from, from parents who may or may not actually have given that approval in the right way. And literally, you know, you didn't get enough hugs as a kid. And that, that is co opted by the world of marketing to, to make you feel that, you know, if I just get that, you know, new jacket or if I have that car, people will like me because they'll think I'm a better person because I can afford this brand new thing and I look good in it. And I genuinely feel that that, that Love and acceptance and connection. Human connection is the antidote to that. That's like, I'd love to get to a point where I have enough money in my business to start buying up advertising space and instead of having the, you know, buy this shit, your life would be better. It would just have, like, finish work early today and go for a walk in the forest with no. With no. With no advertising on it. Although I've given the game away now. If I do that, you'll know it was me.

You know, or, you know, just bring a friend you haven't spoken to for five years, you know, instead of going. Going for that beer or, or buying that new thing and, you know, whatever. It's interesting.

Human connection.

Yeah. What a crazy idea. It might catch on. I mean, because I do, you know, I grew up in the, I guess, 80s and 90s in the UK and I wasn't really cognizant of, you know, people like Margaret Thatcher at a. At a high level. But when you look back and you look at that kind of Reagan Thatcher era, and one of Margaret Thatcher's, you know, big slogans was, there's no such thing as society. You know, it's all about the individual. And you just go, how. How wrong can you be? We're. We are essentially smart monkeys that came out of the trees and now have iPads and Netflix. You know, we. We are a connected tribal animal that is all about connection and working with each other for shared outcomes. Yeah, it's fascinating how. How we've been duped, I feel, into.

Something.

Yeah, very cool. Now, one other thing that you've mentioned a few times early on is this. Well, a couple, two or three things, really, but all kind of interlinked, I feel, was time reflection and in particular, journaling. And that's something I'm big on. Getting coaching clients to do is like, just start putting your thoughts down on paper and get. Getting all this stuff out.

Was there anything specific within that that you felt was particularly useful to you or any tips or tricks that you can lay down for people who are thinking about embarking on that kind of pursuit?

Well, let's start with the time piece. So I was at a commbank, which is the ASB over here, a Women in Focus event, nearly two years ago, and at the end of the amazing three days that we spent up in Byron bay together with 200 other women, she said, one of the facilitators said, if anyone's looking for more space and time in their life, I offer coaching on this topic. And I was like, as a mother of two small humans, I need more time and more space. Of course, I put up my hand and I said, yes, I will lock in that session with you. And it was through that conversation, she just was, you know, asking me lots of questions that I'd already asked myself over the years, but probably hadn't unpacked in detail. But what was important to me? How did I want to spend my days? Why was I doing the work that I was doing when I could be doing other work that was far more valuable and had more meaning? What did I want to be doing? I wanted to be spending more time with my kids. My daughter said to me, after I'd gone to Melbourne 500 times that year, when are you going to spend quality time with this mum and not have to go, not have to go away every week? And I thought, wow, when am I going to spend quality time? Because these years are absolutely going to fly by. And that was a catalyst and a reason for us to move to New Zealand, that I didn't have to work as hard and I didn't have to, you know, be spending my life in a car running my children from one place to the next. And I was able to give them more time. We had more time to be able to travel and go on adventures together. More time to, you know, be outdoors and, you know, just being. Just being present. And so that timepiece, we spend our days just doing stuff that we possibly don't need to be doing. So actually looking at your day and go, okay, well, here is a diary of all the different things that I've done today. What is the process of elimination? Outsourcing everything. Outsourcing someone to fold the washing for you. Outsourcing someone to cook for you if you can. Outsourcing someone stuff to someone to clean the house. If you can pay someone $25 an hour to clean the house, that is far more better. That's a far better use of their time than your time because you want to be able to do things. If I could spend that two hours spending that time with my children playing tennis, I'm going to be able to build that. Those memories, and I'm building better humans for the future. And I can get somebody else to do those other things for me. So it's really about identifying what are we spending our time on and how can we get support for other people to support us on those things where we can then allow that time to spend on the things that are important to you and whether that's about Working and building a business or whether that's about spending more time with your family or whether that's about booking trips away and weekend adventures. So it's really just about making that diary is the kind of practical part. Making a diary of how you are spending your time. And that's hour by hour if you, you need to. One hour I folded washing, two hours I cooked dinner, three hours I did it. And it really, you break that day down and you look at that in a week and then chunk that together and go, who could I get to help me so that I can outsource some of these things so that I am finding more time in my life basically. And it's the model of the four hour work week really by Tim Ferriss. And I guess on the journaling part, I probably started journaling when I started reading Robin Sharma's books like the Saint, the Surfer and the CEO, the Monk who Sold His Ferrari, all of the great Robin Sharma books. And yeah, I've just, I've journaled through some traumatic situations in my life. I've journaled through pain, I've journaled through happiness. I've journaled through my meditation. I've been doing meditation now with Deepak and Oprah every three months. There was a free 21 day meditation. You journal throughout that for 21 days and you unpack stuff. And I, you know, the interesting thing for me about journaling was that I started to see patterns.

Yes, I think that's the key.

Patterns of behavior, patterns of response, patterns of things that I wasn't happy with. And I thought, how am I continuing to repeat the same stuff throughout the year? I need to then identify what is the core of that thing that keeps coming up. That, that pattern is that trigger and then actually going and doing the work on that and unpacking that through my, through my journaling. So I've been journaling for years and I've got my favorite journals. They're a company, I think originally a Swedish company, it's called Bookbinder. There's one in Melbourne, but you can buy them online. One in Melbourne and bought them in Stockholm as well. But just beautiful lined up hardcover material material, journals. And I've tried to use other journals. I was like, oh, I don't need to spend $40 on a journal. I'll just buy a $20 one. And I never end up using the $20 one. And I go and buy myself another book binder because I just don't like writing in the other ones. They just, they're a Nice state of flow.

Well, I think there's a, with the, with that last comment, there's an element of. So I have a nice fountain pen, it didn't cost me too much. And I'll do a shout out to Michelle Sharp from She's now Vodafone. She and I both have the same Moleskine notebook and we get the one that's got dotted, it's got dotted squares so that it can either be squares or lines. And yeah, that's, that's our go to. But I think there's an element of. You're valuing your, the content of your own mind by utilizing, you know what, the most expensive form of paper and pen that you can afford. It's like, yeah, you know what I mean? It's like I'm valuing my own content as opposed to, I'll find a scrap of recycled paper before it goes in the bin and I'll use a biro to scribble a thought on. That's, you know, that's like the last minute shopping list.

It's the journal that is the greatest psychologist. So if you pay a psychologist 250 an hour, you may as well buy yourself a 250.

50.

Yeah, because it really is the greatest. That and running. I always found to be really great psychologists.

Yep, 100% cycling for me. I'm going to have to, there's so many notes. I'm going to have to put your book binder in there as well and everything. But I'll do another shout out to a guy, Bill Courtright, who he said he's, he's keen to be a guest, so I need to get him booked in a future episode. But he has a really cool process which I'll link to where, which, which kind of through journaling, but also just through the journey, you become hyper aware of that voice. And it's all about calming that ego, calming that trigger, calming that behavior that is instinctive, that, you know, pops up for some reason and trying to work out, okay, well, why is that? And is that, is that a learned behavior? And I, for me, I had a lot of triggers that were very much learned behaviors from either or both of my parents. And you kind of just, you just learn to react in a certain way to a certain, you know, trigger. Or is it that, you know, is it something more innate, more instinctive? That is a part of my personality just based on, you know, genetics and who I am that needs work. And I think that that for me is the crux and. But it's the hardest part. It's the hardest part to self examine because we don't want, we don't want to typically do that. So good on you for doing that.

Thank you.

That's why you're amazing human because you're doing all the hard work. Do the mahi get the treats of being a great.

Yeah, it's that hard work piece. You know, there's probably not something that I spend that much work on and that is that self development. Like if I was to look at my bookshelf, it really is all self and personal development and probably, you know, health and nutrition. But it's, but it's generally about self awareness and self exploration and mind stuff that I'm probably most fascinated in. And if you do commit and you do do that hard work, you do tend to, you know, come out the other end a much happier and better, better human. I would say.

Exactly. A thousand percent agree. Thousand.

Yeah.

And I think this is when you. I don't know if you've listened to any Jordan Peterson or no, but I want to Joseph Campbell. So I guess Peterson is a bit of a disciple of Joseph Campbell. All about myth, archetypes and I guess getting into a bit of Jungian psychology stuff here. But it's as he says, you know, as they kind of collectively say, it's this idea of the hero's journey and you know, all the major films that are hyper successful and the two that are most or three that are the easiest to identify for kiwis listening, you've got the Hobbit franchises and the Lord of the Rings, you've got Star wars and you've got Harry Potter and all of them are a deep exploration of the hero's journey. And you know, them being called to slay the dragon metaphorically and.

You know, this is the archetypal story that I think has been laid out is the one that we all need to go through. And I think in the modern Western world we're lacking that, we're lacking that narrative of being told that you need to go and slay that internal dragon. Whereas I think I haven't done the research on this. It's something I'd love to go and go and do is looking at maybe. I mean certainly in other, you know, tribal based communities, the, particularly for males, you know, the idea of the, of the male initiation ceremony, you, you might have to go and wander for, for many days or weeks and survive by yourself but at the same time, you know, you're sitting in a cave with, with your own Thoughts and the shadows are jumping out at you, and you're scared of the noises of the wolves or the lions or the hyenas, and it's like you're slaying the dragons. You're coming to terms with all that. You are not currently. And I kind of feel this. This is. This is where the purpose can fill that void in the modern. In this modern world. That's certainly my theory and my hope. I see that, and I feel that's your story. That's. That's what you've done.

Yeah, very interesting. And I guess what, you know, in the entrepreneurial Women with Purpose piece that I've launched, the Hero's Journey is such a crucial and fundamental part of the foundation of that project, because I really wanted to highlight and share more women's stories in a more meaningful way. So all of our speakers for the series of events, they are all telling their story through the lens of the Hero's journey. So what was. What was their call to adventure? What were some of the trials and tribulations that they faced? Have they looked back and gone, what the hell am I doing? For example, what are some of the learnings and experiences have been? What is their, you know, what is their future plan and what is their call for action? What is that? What are the changes that they're wanting to see in the world? And I'm surprised, actually, you know, probably not so much with the speakers, because they're all quite, very, quite on that journey. I've been surprised when I say to people, have you heard of the Heroes.

Journey Is. I'm surprised of how many people don't. And I think it's such a, you know, I think that would be really something to highlight and share with your audience to, you know, what is that true narrative of that story? What is our story? And how do we share our story in a meaningful way that connects that people know that we are real? I was only talking to Ian Harv Harvey essay Halves from Collective Intelligence. And he's like, oh, I'm so glad you called about this, because now I realize you're actually human, because at some point I was thinking, holy hell, this woman is superhuman. She's not having to deal with any crap in her life. And, you know, then when you share what that truth is and you share some of those trials and tribulations that you're going through, that you've been through, we all connect. And going back to your piece about connection, before that, human connection, because everyone's walking around in the world Going, oh, my life is amazing and I've got my. Together and I've got. Everyone's got something. Everyone's got.

Exactly. Thank you, Facebook, for purporting.

I know, I know. But you've also got to share the bullshit as well. You know, that there isn't. I'm never going to go and share, you know, lots of the layers of complexity that are going on in my life and the traumas and all of those things, because I don't think I need to share that baggage. I've. I'm the one who has to deal with all of that stuff. And that's where my journal has been, a great psychologist for that. And I don't think I need to go and share those things, but that if you share snippets of it, people go, holy hell, she's human. She really is human. Yeah.

And I think that's a big thing. I'm glad you mentioned that because I wanted to bring it up, what you said earlier on about, you know, the kids program you were doing and how, you know, different backgrounds, socioeconomic groups, cultures, what have you. Still having the same problems.

Yeah.

And, and this is the thing. And I think that's why the hero's journey is archetypal. And I guess the definition of archetypal, as I understand it, is. It's like, it's a, it's a truth beyond which there is is no further truth. It's as true. It's a truism as far as you can get in that, you know, that story. And you know, I'm, I'm not a religious person, but when you start overlapping the idea of the hero's journey and then you overlap that onto the Bible and particularly the, you know, the New Testament stories of Jesus, you kind of go, well, that, that is the archetypal, archetypal story. It's like, yeah, here is a guy who was suffering, you know, who had some amazing ideas, but had to suffer for his ideas. And, and, you know, was willing literally to make the ultimate sacrifice, which is, which is part of the hero's journey. And you see that in Harry Potter where he dies and he's transformed out of fire. It's like he's a phoenix. But, and I think this is the thing, like, these movies are so popular because instinctively we understand the journey that they're going on, but we kind of think that we're going through that journey. But actually, if you, if you did a self assessment of your life, you know, you're not Harry Potter. You're The. You're what's his. What's the. The evil dude. I can't remember his name now he's in, you know, the boy. Anyway, you know, never watch them. It's. It's more likely that you're not Luke Skywalker. It's more likely that you're one of Darth Vader's henchmen. You know what I mean? It's like you think you're living a life of purpose and you think you're being a hero in your life, but actually if you do the mahi, if you sit down and reflect on actually what contribution am I making in the world, it's more likely you're what, a Darth Vader's henchmen pressing the buttons on the Death Star rather than, you know, Luke Skywalker, Chewbacca or Han Solo.

So very true. So very true.

So, yeah, is it really cool. So on entrepreneurial Women with purpose, Plug time. Tell everyone more about this amazing event which apparently has got some really awful.

Really amazing dude helping with it as well. So I guess I'll take you back to where it started. And it was, you know, really me reaching out to, as I did with you when I reached out to you, I think, was it? You were one of the first people that I connected with in New Zealand because I thought, where am I going to find like minded people? And I went straight to the B Corp website, found out all the contact details for everyone who was a B Corp certified company and I rang them to have a conversation. And then of course those conversations led me to other people to have conversations. And I would say that I spent most of my year of 2019 in a conversation with not much of an intention but just to build relationships and have those humans, human connections. And while I was having all of those conversations, I was realizing there was a common thread, really great, successful and profitable businesses. But they're all doing something for the greater good of the world. And whether that be social impact, social awareness, solving different social issues and, or environmental issues, that someone, every, each of those organizations was doing something for the greater good of the world. And then, But I was also realizing, and I think this is an Aussie versus New Zealand thing, is that Australians seem to shout from the rooftop about what they're doing. Whereas New Zealand really, I know it's interesting, I know.

That New Zealanders are a lot more humble about, you know, sharing, sharing their stories. And I thought, well, I think, you know, these stories really need to be told because there's some really great and wonderful Things happening, we really need to be able to shout those a little bit more from the rooftop. And then at the same time I was talking to, you know, much bigger brands like New Zealand Post and Vodafone and Xero and they were all trying to connect to women in a more meaningful, in a more meaningful way. So it was really about a combination of how do I bring these two things together, how do we share interesting women's stories, how do we support them in amplifying their stories to create growth in their organizations? But growth with purpose, you know, as we spoke about at the beginning, today is really what's the point of creating a mega business and a huge enterprise if we're not doing something that actually solves the world's problems or, you know, is attributing to, you know, higher, higher impact. So it was really bringing those two things together. And so we launched a series of events which are happening, happening this march across New Zealand in Auckland, Christchurch and Wellington and really bringing together like minded people. We've got five speakers in each location, we've got a wonderful purpose workshop that Tim and I will be doing together. And then we're also hosting a speed dating session. I think the speed dating session probably for me is the most fun part of the day. And we've left it to just before lunch to host the speed dating session. But really what that is, if you think about what speed dating was before Tinder and eharmony and those kind of digital brands came out, it was about humans connecting, to meet each other, to form relationships. So each person will sit across the table from one another. You'll each have 10 minutes with five different people on your table. And really those sessions are about connecting, exploring, having conversations, building emotional connections and relationships with the view that the intention to come out of that, if we build these connections and we build these relationships, it's much easier to then go and build a business partnership or create a collaboration or doing something that's meaningful. So any of the collaborations that I've done the last couple of years have really been off the back of building those wonderful connections and building those wonderful relationships. So each person, each group of people on the table has a set of question cards on the table and they pick up one of those question cards and they ask that other person across the table. So it's not about, hi Tim, how are you? Hi Catherine. What do you do with your day is it's more of a deep and meaningful conversation. So tell me about one of the key failures in your business or tell Me about the most successful journey or, you know, tell me about a trial and tribulation that you faced in your organization. And there might be tears and there might be laughter, and there might be, you know, so we're really wanting to find those deep and meaningful relationships. And Ian Harvey from Collective Intelligence is hosting that session of the day. And when I was talking to halves about what the questions would be and exploring that with his facilitators, which is what we're doing now, one of the questions that I had thought, he thought it was a bit too harsh to start in this way, but tell me a story about the last time you cried.

Wow.

And so, you know, we. That's what. That was one of the questions that I started with. And then at the end of our discussion, he. And so I said, so, Hobbs, before I let you go, I've got one more question for you. Oh, sure. And I said, tell me a story about the last time you cried.

Nice.

And he just went.

Okay.

And he had the balls to share it with me, which I was so. And at that really built our friendship and relationship and, you know, a wonderful business relationship that we do have. And I think that really supported the foundation of, you know, building that wonderful connection and building that wonderful relationship. So. And I'm really excited to have them, as I am you guys, to have them on board as a, as a partner for entrepreneurial women with purpose. But I guess beyond, you know, the events, we want to be able to have $30,000 to invest into UN Women New Zealand, or give it. Not invest, but to give, give to UN Women New Zealand as a, as a contribution that, you know, from every ticket that's sold, that we'll be able to give that profit to UN Women. And that money goes towards women's economic empowerment into the Pacific Islands. And then off the back of that, really, you know, the big, kind of, bigger picture view, beyond the kind of storytelling and story sharing and bringing those organizations together, is that we're looking at setting up a microfinance fund to support women in the Pacific to get access to small business loans and also an impact investment fund for women here in New Zealand to give them access to good quality green funds for growth and for the greater good of the world in their. In their business journey. So there's kind of a long term, long term view which, you know, but the first part is really the launch events that we're hosting across the country in March.

Wow. So just a quiet 2020 on the cards for you then.

Very quiet 2020. And try and spend some good quality time with my children.

That's the balance. That's the balance.

That's the balance.

Wow. No, it's going to be an amazing session, group of events, and I'm really grateful for you having me a bit part of it. I think it's going to be. Yeah. Some real high energy, and I think. Yeah, can't wait to see what comes out of it. But I think you've hit on something really important there as well. Well, two things. You know, Kiwis are super humble, and if you're working in the kind of do good space, you're typically the more humble. So you've got this double layer of humility that we need to try and crack through. And that's. I, you know, similar. For me, it's a big reason why I'm doing this podcast is just highlight people that are doing good and have been on this journey. And it's like, let's just raise the profile that there are. There are people out there doing this. So don't be afraid of giving it a go because, you know, there's not much you will lose by giving it a go. You'll just have immense growth and more than likely come out a way better human.

Way better human.

But also the whole idea of collaboration. And I think historically, the CSR world or sustainability world, I think that's just been rife with competition and it's. And I see this, I'm doing some consulting work with a charity group at the minute, and you know that the not for profit sector is more competitive than the for profit sector, you know, because everyone's scrambling for funding and money.

Yeah.

And I think there's a real. It's almost like some kind of messiah complex that I'm going to be the one that saves the world. And, Catherine, you need to be number two or number three, because I want to be the one who saves the world. And I think the real risk there is business as usual just gets to go, well, you haven't got your story straight. You're not. You're not organized. So we'll just keep doing what we're doing until you kind of get your shit together over there. And so having these kind of events where, you know, we're collaborating and you're asking other people to collaborate, I think that is the key, and it's one of the bedrocks really of, you know, the B Corporation movement is, you know, how do you. How do you work with your industry peers to create positive change rather than competing against each other? To sell more shit that people don't need.

Yeah, I think that competitive landscape is becoming a thing of the past. It definitely still exists, and I do believe, believe that our futures are going to be formed by collaborations. You can only see that in the amount of mergers and acquisitions that are going on in the world these days that, you know, the power of bringing lots of interesting organizations together. You know, speaking to the guys at Icebreaker the other day, who are now owned by a much bigger conglomerate out of the US VF Corp. And they were acquired because of their purpose, you know, and because of, you know, what they. What they stood for and them wanting to go on that purpose journey for all of their other organizations within their business. So, you know, that's just an interesting. An interesting view that much larger organizations are taking part in this piece and seeing it as a valuable offering.

Could not agree more. Yeah.

Well, we're pretty much up to the hour, Mark, and I know that. Well, clearly you are a super busy human. You've got a lot of stuff to get on with. Just in for February and March, and no doubt you've got a lot of other stuff. So, yeah, look, thank you so much for agreeing to be. Be on here. I felt like I've learned a heap more about you and I just.

And likewise, I've learned lots of things from you. I've been taking lots of different notes about all the. All the things that you've been mentioning for me to explore and. And tap into and learn more. So I'm excited to get all those links in the bio of all these different things that we can all learn more about.

That will be my job for the rest of the day, is finding all these links I have to find.

I'll send. I'll send you a few, too.

Awesome. That'll be fantastic. But hey, look, thank you so much. And look, just keep on. I cannot wait to be a part of Entrepreneurial Women With Purpose. And I just need to confirm, live on air, that I don't need to wear a frock, do I? I can't turn up.

Absolutely, Absolutely. We'll take you as you are as to who you are, as long as you, the real you, will take you as the real version of you. Wonderful.

I think I'm. I think I'm pretty much there.

Good. All right, thanks, Tim.

Cheers, Katherine. Bye.

Bye.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening in to my podcast. As I say, I'd love to know where you are on your journey in pursuit of purpose. And if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try and answer for you or people you'd like me to interview on this podcast, please do let me know through a message or a comment. Also, do connect with me on other social media platforms. You'll find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, and on YouTube. For more information about me and what I offer through my business, Grow Good. You can also go find me at www.growgood.co. that's GrowGood.co. if you want to get in contact with me, my email is really easy. Timogrowgood Co. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, go well and keep on pursuing your purpose.