#48 Vikings Of Impact! Talking B Corp and Purpose with Eli Harrel from Valhalla

Tim, welcome to Products With Purpose. Thanks for being here. Tell us, where are you joining us from?

Hello. Or should I maybe say Kia ora? Because I'm calling in from New Zealand or culturally, I'm half Welsh, so. Shamai. There we go. We've covered all our bases, so, yeah. Dialing in from New Zealand. Grow Good headquarters.

I'm really glad to have have you here. I've been looking forward to this conversation since we talked last. And so let's get started by talking about, you know, before we hear your background story and how you got here, what is Grow Good? What are you doing?

So, pretty much it's been an interesting journey, which we'll get to, but right now we pretty much are 99.9% focused on helping companies get through the B Corp certification process. So, yeah, helping them understand it, navigate it, get to the point of being able to get that certification. So if people don't know what B Corp is, we can explain a bit more about what that is.

Yeah, we definitely should. I think it's becoming something people are hearing. I know I'm. I'm seeing it and hearing it everywhere, but a couple years ago, I didn't really know that much about it, so I think that'd be good if we go into a little bit of background. But why don't we start with a little bit of your background and how you got here?

Yeah, so I'm originally from the uk, Grew up over there. Went to, I guess, what you'd call traditionally a good school, as in, your parents pay a lot of money to go there and it was only boys, which apparently in the UK is a marker of a good school.

And I guess my trajectory in life seemed to have been mapped out for me. You know, it's like you go to a good school, you'll just go to university and then you'll study a good degree at university and then you'll get a proper job, which to them would mean medicine, accounting, law or the military. And you go and do something, you know, noble and, and, you know, useful for society at that level. And I kind of. I've been on that trajectory. I ended up going to university. I studied Medieval history, which is clearly really, really useful. Um, it's mildly useful on quiz nights in the pub if there's questions on, you know, the Norman Conquest, but they don't come up that often. And. And for me, my. My path that I thought I could see was joining the military. I wanted to be an army officer in the British Army. That was kind of. Yeah, what I was pinning my career hopes on. And that was all good until I went to do the selection to join the army and they said, yeah, actually we don't want you. Um, so it's kind of like, so what do I do now?

Did they tell you why?

Well, basically I failed the selection criteria. So you do this like this three day psychometric physical tests. And on reflection that there was a couple of them that I know I didn't do too well. But yeah, I don't know, it was. I didn't think I'd done that badly, but apparently I had.

So, yeah, I had no plan B. And obviously having a degree in history, only other options are to be a librarian or a history teacher, neither of which were really compelling to me. So, yeah, I went and lived in Australia for a year and just thought, right, I'll go and find myself. Because it's quite common that before you go to university or, you know, at that age you might go traveling, I guess, for people from the uk, Aussie, New Zealand, Aussie for a year. Yeah, did a gap year, met some really cool people. Almost all the people that I met though were either ex military or, you know, had just got into the. There was like massive military connections which was kind of like, okay, well this is nice. I've come kind of come to get, come to the other side of the planet to get away from all of that and hey, here we are. But that was cool. No, so made some really good mates there, lived there for about a year and then thought, look, I want to get back to the uk. I'm just living hand to mouth, you know, just no money to really go and do anything with and, you know, I can't just do short term jobs forever. And a good mate of mine was working for Johnson and Johnson as a medical device sales rep and he just said, mate, I think you'd be, you know, him and I, we're very similar personality types. He said, look, I'm doing really well. I think you'd be really good at this. I can give a recommendation to the leadership team and that will kind of get you through quite a few of the hoops in terms of the recruitment process. So I was like, sure, yeah, give it a go. So this was for, yeah, Johnson and Johnson and I got onto their graduate training scheme. So pretty competitive scheme. And like I said, partly because I'd had this internal recommendation, you kind of got through the first two or three stages of the recruitment journey okay. And I got that job. So I did medical device sales for A year in the UK selling hips and knees. And then I met a Kiwi girl and her visa was running out. My, and my sort of 12 month, you know, program was running out. And so it was either get married to stay together or move to New Zealand. And I thought, well, New Zealand seems less terminal than getting married at the age of 24. So I guess I kind of thought, well, New Zealand, Australia, they're both pretty much the same. They speak funny and they like rugby and beer. So you know, how hard can it be to go to New Zealand instead? And I guess the plan was to come here for a year and then just reassess and then probably go back to the UK. But that was 2004.

Ended up still in the medical device world over here. Got in working for another large multinational company here and went out with, well, was referred to as Kiwi Girlfriend 1.0. We went out for about another three years or so and then things just, you know, weren't working out. And so I, we were living in Auckland, which is in the north island of New Zealand. I had an opportunity to move to the South Island. I said, look, I'm kind of going. So I went and within a couple of months met the now wife. Stayed in the medical device world for a few years and then really, 2010, 2011, here in Christchurch, where I'm based, we had a series of massive earthquakes and those earthquakes and then 2012 we had our daughter. That sort of two year period was really what got me on this path. It's, it's fairly common in terms of like the medical literature that if you have a near death experience, the birth of a child or the death of someone significant or close to you, any one of those can trigger what's called a subconscious awakening. And I basically had two out of three of them. And there was a lot of stuff going on in the medical device industry that I guess you kind of see. You watch it, but you kind of watch it go by. And the big corporate PR spin machine just tells you, look, it's all good, you know, yeah, nothing to see here. And so there was stuff like one of the companies I worked for, and this is all, it's all in the news or was in the news. One of the companies I'd work for essentially knowingly launched a product into the market too soon.

One of the.

The surgeon who was running the trial, he was a shareholder in the company. So it was in his interest that the product, you know, got to market. So they had this, had this product out. It hadn't been fully tested in terms of what it was being used for. And the first, at least four patients that they tried it on died in the operating theater. And you know, at the time they kind of spit it and go, well, you know, it's kind of medical misadventure and you know, know you can't, you know, you're not going to create leap forwards in technology without, you know, taking risk. And you know, but then let's say when you're in it, you kind of go, oh yes, but yeah, it kind of makes sense.

And then a couple of years after that, almost every major medical device company was subpoenaed by the U.S. department of justice for basically bribing surgeons was how it was, you know, pitched. You know, so surgeons would be paid to go to conferences, they'd be paid to go and talk at events, they'd be, they'd be taken to conferences and what have you. But to the level where also some of them were literally like, hey, the new Ferrari is being delivered next week. You know, it'll be, you know, don't stress about it.

Yeah.

And yeah, I guess all of that came into sharp relief. Having gone through the earthquakes in the, having had, you know, our daughter. And I'm just like, what am I doing? Like, I'm working for these companies that theoretically about, you know, making people's lives better, but actually all they care about is making money. And you know, I'm actively being a part of this and in terms of, you know, supporting their activity, even though I'm not actually killing the patients myself, but I'm supportive, I'm giving agency to this, you know, type of business that they're doing. And so that was the beginning of me trying to find out, well, what's it all about? Like, is it is, you know, is your job as an employee just to support companies to maximize their profit? Because that seems to be what it's all about. And so I went on a bit of a journey of sort of self discovery to work out, well, what is, what is life all about? And is, you know, is it just to be happy? Is it just to make money? Like, what is it? And that's what I got onto the, like the purpose journey. And then through that I stumbled through this rabbit hole, Internet rabbit hole and found B Corp. And it's like, okay, so there's a group of. And this would have been 2013, 2014. You know, it's like back then there was about a thousand HB Corps. It's like, well, I might be Crazy. But there's a thousand other business owners who are equally crazy, who equally believe that the way we're running the show in terms of, like, let's just make as much money as possible and who cares how we make it? And so, yeah, that's how I got into it.

Just kind of pull on the thread of the subconscious awakening and the earthquakes and birth of your. You said daughter, right?

Yep.

Waking up and kind of asking these more existential questions. And I've had a lot of these moments, a number of these moments over the last, let's say, 10 years also where I've. I've had questions for myself around.

Getting aligned with. With myself and kind of.

Yep.

Is. Is this thing that I'm doing or is this.

Am I supporting something that I don't really believe in? And took a lot of deep digging. Like, what was that process like for you to. You know, at least in my experience, the realization might happen in a short period of time, but the work that it takes to detangle yourself, disentangle yourself from not only the external world that you're committed to, but also kind of the internal wiring of what you've been doing for so long. Like, what was that process like for you?

Horrendous. Still going. You know, this is. This for me, is the key to human existence. It's. It's to work out, like, you know, it probably took me six years to really get my head around that existential unbundling and to work out, well, who. Who am I? Who do I think I am? Why am I who I am? How did I end up to be who I am? And, you know, all these questions and. But, you know, this is the key thing. This. This is in many ways the key to a successful and productive and a life of contentment.

I agree.

And, you know, I'm not very smart. It took me six years to think about, how do you. How do you unpack purpose? It took me six years to go, actually, just look in the dictionary. Huh? What a crazy idea. Because people kind of take all these words and they try and work out what they mean. And if you look at the. The definition of purpose, it's the reason for which something was made or created and something's useful, usefulness. And you kind of go, right, so why was I created? And what unique skills have I got that I can give to society and the planet to make the place better? Like, it's. It's simple. It's really simple. Great. You just go and do that. But then you've Got all the conditioning you've got. Yeah. But mom and dad want you to be a lawyer or mom and dad want you to do this, and your school say no, only you get to. You know, I asked my. I remember, you know what, I used to walk through the town to get to school every day, and I asked the careers master one day, I said, oh, Mr. Townsend, I'm just curious, how do, like, how does, how do shops work? Do the people in them, do they own the shop? Do they own all the clothes and stuff in them, or do they rent it? But just how does it work? Boys from this school don't work in shops. So don't worry about it, Timothy. It's like just, you know, these aren't the droids you're looking for. You don't need to worry about that. It's like, oh, okay. And so you just kind of ignore that As a whole career choice has now been. I've been told that that is not a career choice that I can choose because you, as the school wouldn't want to say that one of our kids has gone and got into retail. Oh, imagine that.

And this is the big thing. So for me, the. One of the first part for me was to go, well, actually, who am I? Like, who. Who do I think I am? And I think having been a sales, you know, in sales roles, they're pretty good at getting you to do personality tests on yourself because they want to know who you are and what motivates you and all the rest of it. So I had a pretty good idea of, yeah, I kind of roughly know how I approach the world. So then the next case is like, well, why? Well, am I actually who I think I am, or have I been created by other things? And that was, yeah, those are the questions. Yeah. And the key thing that helped me unbundle that was a thing called Proust's questionnaire. I don't know if you've heard of this. So back in the late 1800s, because they didn't have Facebook and TikTok and whatever else, entertainment consisted of you writing a questionnaire and then going to the, you know, the tea house or the coffee room and sharing your questionnaire with your mates. And then your mates would go away for a week and you'd come back the next week, and they come back with their answers and you'd all laugh at them and go, haha, I can't believe that Eli said that. Haha. And Prowse questionnaire is used by fiction writers to create characters. So it's I think it's 35 or 36 questions on, you know, what, what's things like, what are your values? What would be your motto? How would you like to die? Who is the historical character that you would most like to meet?

Nice.

What are the virtues that you most like and dislike in a man or a woman? And so fiction writers have taken it to be able to really create a character and go, like, how would this character turn up and think and feel and be behaving. But if you use it as an introspective piece to review yourself and go, actually, what do I really believe? Not what I say on social media or what I tell my parents, because I think that's what they here, but actually what do I think and feel? And then from that is what I kind of call the authenticity gap. There's like this version of you that's been created versus this, the true version of you. And for me, this is, you know, typically what the midlife crisis comes to because you have, you know, typically you've had. You're having a kid or you have some big existential shock, and it's like.

You realize there's a gap, there's a.

Massive gap, and those two come crashing together and you go, I just don't know anymore. And that's the existential. So for me, it was like, who am I? Is that really me? And then working out what led me to be not the true version of me and to understand where all those kind of sliding door moments were through your life.

Yeah, I think that's really well said that, that, that that aligns very similarly, I mean, very closely to my experiences. And it was in my early 30s that I started some big, like, for example, a business that I'd been building for a number of years. The partnership between myself and my co founders got really stressful. And that business started like that partnership started crumbling. And.

That. That was one of those sort of moments when I think it got me just asking questions like that. It was the first time I really remember asking. I'd spent the decade of my twenties just working on creating freedom, like, how much? What do I need to do to be successful, working hard, building the American dream? But started asking questions like these in my early 30s when I was super stressed out. Things were going, you know, things were very shaky. Who exactly am I? And who do I want to become? And like, what am I doing for that? And the next 15 years has been this process of figuring out how did I be? How. How was I wired to become someone that really isn't me and who, you know, what is that true inner self. So, yeah. Fascinating experience. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Go ahead.

If you have more.

Yeah, I mean it's what, it's what I call the tribalization process, you know, the.

Your, your parents expectations, you know, and the classic example would be, well, neither, you know, there are expectations of all different kinds. It's like either we didn't go to university, therefore we're going to make sure. Absolutely. That you do go to university. Yeah, we recognize. Or we went to university, therefore you must go to university, or we didn't go, therefore you shouldn't go. Because people like us don't. Like all expectations from parents, society, your peers, your school, you know, all of that basically influences your, your path in life.

Absolutely.

I think it's, it's more rare that someone can kind of be immune to that and go, no, actually I'm not interested in what you're telling me. I know that this is my path. I think the vast majority of people are asleep at the wheel in their own lives. They have this, you know, I love the etymology of words, you know, discontent. You know, I'm, I'm not content, I am diseased. You know, I'm not at ease. Which manifests with disease. You know, we just kind of, we know, just look at the meaning crisis in the modern working environment. Like most, if you look at all the Gallup polls that come out every year, like the vast majority of people are disengaged or actively, you know, actively disengaged. Like I'm stealing everything I can from your office because I hate this business so much. You know what I mean? It's like, it's insane. Like, I don't think we could have created a. If we wanted to create a worse system to lock people into sort of existential nightmare. I don't think we could have done better than what we've actually managed to create. You know what I mean? In terms of like a complete system that creates you and then just traps you in this bubble of consumerism and chasing success, which only looks like financial and material success in the vast generalized case of humanity. It's.

Yeah, it's inside something, you know, kind of just on the, the other side of that coin that I'm excited about is that so many people are really waking up right now and, and saying like, we're not willing to. There's enough data sharing and story sharing happening across the planet that people are realizing that they're, they, they've got to prioritize meaning they've got to prioritize purpose more.

100.

I'd love to have a conversation with you maybe offline another time about, like, the possibility of kids growing up without that expectation from their tribe and their parents that they.

Yeah.

That they have to go through all those years of unpacking.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's the interesting thing, because if you look at an actual tribe, it's. It's very common that when a child is born, the parents will give them a birth name, and then when they go through the rite of passage as a young adult, which we don't do really, it's not structured after the rite of passage, and they've had maybe 12 to 15 years of watching the kid in action. It's not uncommon that they have almost like a renaming ceremony where the tribe goes. Actually, Eli, we've worked out what your role is going to be like. You have these skills and you have this proclivity to be good at this. So this is, you know, we now know what your place is. And. And so, like, that's what we've always done. It's kind of only recently that we go, no, like, Eli, like, we want you to be a doctor or a lawyer because that's going to make us look like we were good parents and it's going to be a good job for you and the family's going to be safe and secure. It's like, okay, I see that, but I'm really rubbish with people and science. Yeah, but that's okay. Just like, just fudge it. Just give it a go. You'll be fine. You know, I think it's. We need to get back to that. And I don't think it's as far away as we perhaps think or don't even think, which is part of the problem.

Yeah, yeah. I love these. These kind of conversations. And so. So that process that you went through, kind of realizing, you know, that. That what you were doing and who you had been wired to be was. Was not really you and trying to figure those things out and now, like, leading that, you know, like, get us to the point of. Of grow good and. And why you've chosen this. Like, what's the. What's the. Why is this more aligned for you?

Yeah. Did I choose it or did it choose me? There we go. That's the thug life, whatever it is. Yeah. So I got to a point, I was. I was st. I can see it right now. I was so part of my job as part of the job, as A medical rep is you go into the operating room for the Americans, or the operating theater, if you are of the Commonwealth persuasion and part of your job is to help the surgical team, help the surgeon, you know, make sure that the procedure goes well. If they get stuck or they're not sure about how things work, when it comes to your product, you kind of navigate and guide them through that. So I was standing in this operating theater. The surgeon was being a jackass as they, I want to be orthopedic surgeons, like, typically a player kind of guys, mainly guys, they just want everything to be perfect and the best. And if it's not going well, they just start shouting and berating everyone in the room. So he's, they're kind of doing his typical thing. And I'm just like, I know how much money you earn and I know how much money you're kind of gaming in the system and you're abusing these two nurses who are paid a pittance and just doing the best that they can. I'm like, I'm just, I'm literally, I'm done. And I, I held my tongue. I almost felt like saying, dude, you're a jackass. Like, I'm done. But I thought, no, I don't want to burn my bridges completely. But I basically went home that lunchtime. We lived a couple of blocks away from the hospital that I was working at the time. I went home and I said to my wife, I'm done. I just can't do this anymore. Like, I've seen too much. I know how this thing works. I just, I cannot, I cannot do it. Cannot do it. And so I ended up applying for, I don't know, about 80 different jobs because the medical device world is really insular and, you know, you kind of bounce between jobs because everyone knows everyone. It's like really connected industry. And I thought, well, maybe it's just the medical industry. Like, I've had my only real working life experience has been in this one industry. So I just applied for jobs in all sorts of different industries. I thought, look, we, we'd moved up to Auckland post earthquakes to have our daughter. So I thought, right, we want to get back to Christchurch, want to get anything in anything but medical, and I want to try and get a leadership role because I'm, you know, I'm in my early 30s. I, I again, you know, I need to have a leadership position on my CV by the time I'm 30.

Yeah.

And I ended up being hired as general manager for a firm of surveyors. And engineers, that was completely random. But they wanted someone with BD experience, not with technical background. They wanted someone to, you know, lead the sales growth of a new office they were building and build a team around. I thought, wow, this sounds like pretty cool. But you know, in the rebuild of Christchurch, So this is 2014, they. They kind of polled the community and everyone living in Christchurch said, we want a green, sustainable, livable, walkable city that is community and family friendly and interconnected. Great. So the public has spoken. What did we get? We got a city that was cheap and nasty and built around the car and disconnected communities. And it was all built around the property developers getting their buildings up as cheap and as quick as possible. And being in that industry and listening to the property developers and just watching what they wanted to build, it was like, I don't care how warm the building is, I just want it cheap and quick. And it's like, right, okay, so it's not just the medical industry. Okay. So though the commercial property industry is the same and then being in that industry, you know, you would bump into lots of other groups like banking, finance, insurance, you know, some of the companies that were tenants and some of the buildings that we might be, you know, doing some advice around. And again, everyone was, it just like, it just came back to $$$. And it's like.

None of you see the impact that you're having by taking the quick, easy financial route here. Like, you're creating all this damage and you're destroying the planet. And so it kind of really just crystallized that. Hang on, it wasn't just medical. It seems to be that everyone just cares about making as much money and they just really don't care about anything else. And because I'd had that, that kind of moment of clarity and by this point it was fairly well crystallized. And it was just like, this is just insane. And so I got out of that industry and I thought, I want to get into coaching and training. Like, it's something that I thought about whilst I was selling medical. Like I say, we got sent on a lot of training programs. Yeah, because you have to be able to, you know, outwit in many ways psychologically highly trained orthopedic or neurosurgeon, like the smart people. So you need to be on your game when it comes to psychology and, you know, communication and what have you. And I thought, well, I reckon I could take a lot of that content and probably do. I thought I could do better. And so I ended up getting hired into A role as a full time sales trainer for a small company based in sort of one of the provincial areas of New Zealand. And my plan really was to stay with them for a few years, just get, you know, trained up, build up a bit of a Rolodex and then go out on my own. But after about nine months they'd kind of overestimated their forward bookings. So they hired five of us at the beginning of the year and by the end, well, pretty much just before the end of the year, the five of us were made redundant. So late 2015 I just thought, I've kind of been telling everyone else that they should be a B corp for, for about a year now. I tried to get the property company and they were just like, well, does it make us more money? I said, I don't know, but it seems like a really cool thing to do. The trading company were, were pretty interested but they, you know, they were a small family run business, just didn't have the capacity. And back then there was still like 2B Corps in New Zealand. So they're kind of like what? Yeah, kind of looks interesting, but not really sure what you're talking about, Tim. So I kind of thought, well look, I've been telling everyone else that they should be a B corp. I've got an opportunity now. My daughter was kind of just at preschool. My wife was just looking at getting back into the workforce herself and I just thought if I don't give my own thing a go now, I'm gonna go and take a job that I dislike, that I know is complete BS again and it will be 10 years, I'll be 10 years down the line and I'll hate my life. And I just said to my wife, look, I just, can I just give it a go?

So tell me like, how did you first discover B corpse? And why did you, you know, what led you to start telling other people they, you know, you know, kind of championing.

I think it was two parts to it. So having gone down this purpose journey and try to work out like there's got to be ways that companies can try and do some good, you know, whilst they're doing what they do. So in the property consultancy I was trying to work out, you know, is there a qualification or some training I could get because I had no construction or property experience per se, whereas everyone else was like a chartered surveyor, an engineer or what have you. So I felt like I, I need to try and get some kind of qualification to prove that I know something in the building Industry. So there's a group over here. Well, they have to be most countries called like the Green Building Council, so the New Zealand Green Building Council. So I did a training program through them to become a Green Building practitioner, I think it was called, which basically means you understand the principles of green building. You can provide some advice on that. So I'd kind of gone down a bit of a rabbit hole there and just been searching courses and certifications and what have you. But then the other part of it was that the internal culture in the company was pretty toxic. And so I was kind of Googling, you know, certifications for me that I could pursue whilst at the same time looking for kind of HR fixes and cultural frameworks that I could maybe introduce to at least get my improve. Christchurch office humming which would then kind of prove to the Wellington and Auckland officers where they were pretty dysfunctional, like, hey, you know, this is working. And kind of through that I just ended up in this Internet rabbit hole and came across this B Corp thing. Thought, wow, like this is really interesting. Like it's social impact, environmental impact, treating your staff. I was like, okay, this looks pretty cool. And I thought, well, this typically like stuff like that just isn't in New Zealand yet. So I thought, I bet there won't be one in New Zealand. Maybe we could be the first company in New Zealand. I think I've always liked being like the first or being doing something different. Anyway, on a personal note. Nice. And I had a quick look and I was like, damn it, there's two of them in New Zealand, so I bet there can't be one in the South Island. I was like, damn it, there's one in Christchurch. So I rang this guy, Steve Arda. Well, I emailed him.

You're supposed to be happy that there are people doing it.

Well, I am, I am now. But back then it was like, you know, come on, I want to be the first. So, yeah, I emailed Steve and said, hey, look, you know, I've just stumbled across this B Corp stuff. Could I just come and have a coffee with you and see what's what? And so I booked, you know, like a 45 minute meeting with him in his office and I left about three hours later just with, you know, my head just exploding with all these ideas and like, oh my word, like he gets it. Like this guy runs a business, he's the CEO of a business and he gets all the stuff that I've been talking about that I don't understand what everyone else is doing all this Crazy stuff. And so that was just like really, really cool. And so I just said to him, look, how can I help? So he was B Corp number one in New Zealand. And so he was really know, pushing the conversation. They would run open days or open evenings in their warehouse and you know, just get people to come in, have a look, see a B Corp. What does it mean? So yeah, I would like be handing out drinks at events, whatever, like, whatever, you know, helping him organize movie nights and stuff like that. And so I then got connected with B Lab. So my, my business is a certified B corporation, but B Lab is the organization that runs the certification framework and runs the whole thing globally. So I got connected with the CEO of B Lab at the time and I was like, just what do you need doing? Like, I will pretty much do anything that you need doing in New Zealand. Like, and I don't care if you don't pay me. Like, I just want to, I want people to know about this thing. And I was really like, come on, you just find some, any money, like pay for some flights for me and I'll just go and talk to, I'll go and like I said, I'll get a list of all the CEOs of the top 500 companies in New Zealand. I'll personally send them a note and go and meet with them and explain to them what this thing is. But they were just B Lab has historically been really under resourced and it was just like, we just don't, we can't even pay, you know, we can't even buy you a coffee, you know, almost. So after about a year of engaging with them, they said, look, we're going to give you the title of B Corp Ambassador for New Zealand. Because I was literally like this. You know, I think his name's Diogenes. I think it is. He was like one of the crazy.

Yes, my son talks about him all the time.

Was he the guy who lived in a barrel and sort of walked? Right? Yeah, he sort of walked. Well, there you go. Your son's onto it. You know, he was kind of walking around saying, show me an honest man. Show me. And I kind of felt like I was him. Like, show me a B Corp. You should be a B Corp. But it's like, who are you? I just like B Corp, you know, it's like, well, at least now I can say I'm the official B Corp ambassador, so I have some legitimacy as to why I'm talking to you about B Corp. So I had that for about a year or so. And then, yeah, got made redundant. And I thought, okay, look, I'm talking this B Corp stuff, and I don't even have one myself. So, yeah, late 2015, you know, the stars kind of aligned. And I said, right, if I don't do this now, it ain't gonna happen. So I did it, and here we are.

So for the. So for the people that, yeah, thank you for the story. That's amazing. I love it. For people out there who maybe have heard of B Corp, or now they've heard of it because we're talking about it, but still don't know, you know, like, what's the. Just a little quick background I'd really like to talk. With the remaining time we have, I'd like to talk mostly about how can we move forward? How can people work with you? What, you know, how can they. They use this? But, like, what's the background purpose, how to B Corp. Just. Just give people a B Corp overview in a. In a couple of minutes.

So B Corp's got a really. I call it, I guess with the Maori culture that we have here. It's. There's a concept called the creation myth story. Like, how did your, you know, culture. How did your. How did it. How did your, you know, race or I guess one of it would kind of arrive here? And the creation myth story for B Corp is really cool. So the guy who co founded it was a guy called J. Cohen Gilbert, and he used to be the CEO of AND one, which was a massive basketball brand. And basically he. His whole existence had been chasing Nike. It's like, when we beat Nike, you know, we can sort of rest and we'll all be happy. And that was his plan until September 11, 2001, when his sister was trapped in the Twin Towers. She got out and then about a week or two later, one of his colleagues at AND one passed away. And say he had that existential moment. It's like, what am I doing? Like, who cares if we're number two or number 20 to Nike? Like, life is short. Life is precious. What am I doing? And so they instigated a whole lot of stuff that would be like B Corp. So they looked at their supply chain and made sure that people were paid well in their supply chain. They offered employee ownership to their. To their staff. They created a community outreach program to at risk youth in Philadelphia, which is where they were based. Massive problems with, you know, with at risk youth just not having opportunities. And so the business went from strength to strength. And then Fast forward to 2005. And Jay's like, I'm kind of out. I've done my dash, I want to move on. They take the business to Wall street and the first thing the bankers do is go, look, you've got a great brand, but the numbers are terrible. You're giving away all this equity, so we need to rip all that out so we can sell the business. So he sold the business and then got together with Bart Houlihan, his cfo, and Andrew Cassoway, one of the Wall street bankers. And he's like, I kind of feel a bit bad that we sold out there. So I've been thinking, why don't the three of us start a new business and we'll build in all this good stuff? Because it felt pretty good and, you know, everyone kind of loved it. And so they looked at creating like a pizza, a pizza franchise and some other consumer goods brands and what have you. And the guys like drinking a bit of whiskey and I reckon a few glasses turned into a few bottles of whiskey. And one of them was like, well, instead of creating one business, what if we created a movement of businesses that aim to be the best for the world, not the best in the world. And so that's kind of like the creation myth story of B Corp or B Lab. So this is 2006. They went to 10 of their mates and said, look, we've created this certification framework which basically looks at your business and how it's performing. And is it the B and B Corp stands for benefit, you know, is it benefiting more than just your shareholders or is it just looking to make as much money? So that was the beginning of it. So B Corp certification is, is basically a verification for businesses that want to prove that they're balancing purpose and profit. So rather than just focusing on shareholder return, profit maximization, B Corps have to consider the impact of their operations on their workers, their community, the environment, their customers, you know, their supply chain, their broader stakeholders.

So all stakeholders.

Yeah, yeah, true stakeholder capitalism rather than just, let's just make as much money and we don't really care how we do that.

So we could, we could really think of B Corp as the framework to ensure stakeholder capitalism is happening, or Stakeholder.

Yeah, it generally is because. Because now in most, you know, Western democratized nations, to become a B Corp, you have to be willing and able to update your, your constitution or other corporate governing document to include a purpose clause and a stakeholder clause, but which basically says we will at all times consider the impact of our operations on all our stakeholders. So whereas, you know, if you're the CEO of a company in the US or, I mean, the UK's Company's act has changed recently, but in most developed nations, your only job as a CEO is to make more money next quarter than you did the previous quarter. And to do that you typically have to go, well, yeah, we are going to close that division because we're not going to make the number unless we increase our profitability. So we just have to sack those people or we're going to find a cheaper supplier or whatever. So, yeah, it's genuine move to get people to have to consider. Actually, is this in the long term interest of all of our stakeholders or is it just about us maximizing profit this month?

So we are seeing, you know, we're hearing this name, B Corp, more often now. We're seeing the logo on people's websites especially. I'm seeing it on the websites of companies that I really respect. But I'd love to go a little deeper on what makes it so legitimate. In other words, what, what is, what is it about the B Corp certification that ensures that an organization is really doing this shit? Right.

Yep.

And then, and then maybe a little bit about what are some of the, maybe a few specific stories or what are some of the benefits that employees and other stakeholders are seeing. Yep. From companies making this choice.

Yep. So look, I'm always really clear to say that the B Corp is not a silver bullet and it is not perfect, but it is, in my opinion, the best and only solution that we've really got that looks to solve any or all of the challenges that we're facing collectively as a species. And so the B Corp assessment, it looks, it looks at your business across five areas of your business. So it looks at your governance performance. So how transparent are we in terms of our ethics reporting? You know, do we have 50 shell companies ending up somewhere in the Bahamas and no one can work out where the money' going? It looks at your, how you treat your workers. So do we compensate our staff well? Do we provide opportunities for career development and so on and training and so forth? It looks at our community impact. So what's a community is a bit, it's a bit of a funny one because it's kind of like a hodgepodge of different things. It looks at your supply chain, if you have one. So where are you getting your stuff from and how do you treat your supply chain? It looks at diversity across your ownership, your board, your leadership and your staff. It looks at your charitable Work. So are you doing volunteering in kind, product donations or just cash donations to a charity? It looks at your environmental footprint and then it looks at how do you treat your customers and even what are you selling and if your product has an inherent benefit to your customers. So I like it. I hate the word holistic, but it is holistic. There's plenty of other certifications that will just measure your carbon or they'll just prove that you are child labor free or that you are living wage certified. So B Corp is kind of almost like the Google of certification systems because it, it pulls in all these other things that you might be doing under one certification, the other. The other reasons why I like it is it's globally recognized and it's independently verified. So to become a B Corp, you do an initial self assessment and it's free to take that initial assessment and you can play around with it and go through that assessment as many times as you want. But to get, if you can see it behind me, my little certificate here behind me, to get the certification, to get the independent validation and to prove that the claims that you're making are true, you pay your money to go through an independent audit process with B Lab. So someone comes and reviews your business, reviews your questions, and they go, great. Well Tim, you claim here that you're doing this. Can you give me an example of how you do that? And you provide an example and then they go, great. Well, now what I'll need to see is a spreadsheet showing me your supply chain, where they're based and how much you spend with each one to prove that you're sourcing X percent of your material from local suppliers. Great, okay, well, I'll go and do that for you. I'll download that from my accounting software and prove that to you.

So I'd love to get into, you know, if I'm hearing this, as a business owner, there's probably some little bit of nervousness or even fear around, you know, being that transparent and vulnerable and am I going to find places where I can't change things easily and I can't change them enough to get here? But before, before we go into those challenges, which I know that's, that's something that you exist to help people through.

Can you share with us a, you know, a couple stories or just some of the things that you're seeing or you've heard about where companies that have made the decision to go through this process, like what are the payoffs, what are the benefit, what are the things you Know some stories that why is it worth doing?

Yep. So, I mean, at the high level, generically, we sort of talk to people that there are four main groups of people that every business bumps into and that's customers, employees, some kind of supply chain. And typically there's some money involved. So either it's an investor or there's a, you know, you've got a bank of some description. And all four of those are looking at your business in the middle and starting to ask the questions either directly or, or at least if not in their own head, like, what is Eli actually up to? Like, he's making some claims here, but is that true? I don't know. Maybe I'll send an email. So I've yet to see any evidence that would show that becoming a B Corp is bad for your business. I mean, no one's ever said, send that to me. I have got reams and reams and reams of evidence and stats and, you know, documentation showing that B Corp positively impacts your business. So some, I guess, like one, one probably interesting example would be there's a company here based in Christchurch called Kathmandu. And they're. They used to be. So they sell outdoor clothing, kind of a bit like Patagonia. And historically their whole model has been, you know, stack them high, sell them cheap. So it was always like, buy two, get one free, you know, poor quality material, just, just high volume, sell as many as we can. And they got to a point where I guess their sustainability and brand team were kind of like, actually, do you know what? I don't think this is going to be the future of retail, particularly in the outdoor space. And so Tim Loftus, who's a mate of mine, was the brand manager trying to convince the team that they should look at doing better in sustainability. And I'll send a link to. It's called the dump fee model of sort of uptake on sustainability. I don't know if you've heard of that fee Dunphy. Yeah. D U N P H Y And basically it's also, you know, to begin with, you're kind of actively resistant to doing any good around sustainability because it seems all fluffy and woo woo. And it's like, whatever, but what? Tim. Tim's a smart operator. And he, he sat down with like the CFO and the CEO one day and he said, well, look, let's take sustainability off the table. He said, do you know how much we spend every year lighting all our retail stores? And the CFO was kind of like, no, I don't actually. And Tim's like, well, I can tell you it's like something like $2.2 million a year we're spending on just lighting in our stores. What if I could have that for you? And the CFOs like, well, yes, clearly that would be of interest. He goes, great. They're called LEDs. So it's like there's multiple examples where just looking at doing good through social, the social and or environmental lens has a business benefit. So that's one example. You know, we're definitely anecdotally people that we've helped with B Corp here. You know, they, they are saying like, we're having potential employees just email us and say, I want to come and work for you because you're a B Corp. And I, I kind of just from that I, I'm anticipating that you can be good people to work with. And in, in general, the vast majority of B Corps are run by good people with good intent. And so, yeah, we're definitely seeing so many benefits from people. You know, if you do it authentically and you, and you fully integrate the learnings and the opportunities from the assessment, it's just a huge win. Win.

Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. So talk to us a little bit about, you know, the, if somebody out there is a little bit afraid of digging into the process, kind of a little bit of fear of the unknown and what can you tell them about the process itself?

And so it's really interesting. There's.

I think that there's a lot of people that, like you said, they're scared to kind of look. It's like, oh, I don't think we're going to be doing very well. Well, at some point you're going to have to look because, you know, this trend is not going away anytime soon. So I think it's so much better if you could, if you can, look front foot it, be, be brave and honest that we're not doing so well in some areas.

Just lean into it.

Yeah. Because the key thing to remember is no one's perfect. You know, to become a B Corp, you need to score 80 out of 200 points on the assessment. There is no 200 point B Corp currently. So no one's won B Corp, no one is like, we are perfect. You know, there is nothing more for us to do. So even the best, the highest scoring B corp still have got work to do. Like every, everyone is on a journey and increasingly I think people will respect you more for being honest and vulnerable and saying, look, we realize that this isn't great. But I agree when we built this business 20 years ago, we didn't know that and it was a different time. And I think in general the vast majority of people will respect you for being honest about it and going to your community of stakeholders and saying but we want to make it better, so can you let us know what you think we should do so much better. There was a classic example here. There's a chain of, it's kind of like a Target, I guess type store called Farmers and it would have been about 2017 or 2018 maybe a lady, a mum emailed them and said hey, I'd just like to know a little bit more about your supply chain and specifically where do you source your kids clothing from? To which their reply was I'm very sorry madam, but that information is classified. Well, I'm now imagining six year old children making my clothes. I'm not imagining that. It's amazing because if you don't want to tell me about it. Yeah. And so we've got this really interesting period I think we're in right now where there's some, there's green washing and purpose washing. People just making vastly over inflated claims about the good that they're doing.

Yes.

There's a next group in the middle kind of going la la la la. I just don't, I don't want to in case people throw rocks at me and say I'm rubbish, I'm just not going to admit to anything. But then on the other extreme, it's a new phrase I've heard recently called green hushing which is where people are actually doing really, really cool stuff.

But I don't want to talk about. Yeah, yeah. For fear of being criticism to brag or.

Yeah, yeah. So but I kind of think that, you know, whether you want to use it as a marketing play or whatever, it's like people are hungry for good news stories. They want to, they want to see companies doing cool things that are solving big problems or at least not making the planet worse or people worse. It's like no, no, like that.

I totally agree and I think this is a really important thing for all of us to be looking at, thinking about, evaluating, noticing how we are, how are we showing up in, in this way. Because this whole everything you just talked about fascinates me a lot. I think we're in a period of time where you're right, it, it can be so powerful and rewarded by, by culture and society when we are transparent and vulnerable. But then there's this fear of the cancel culture where it's, it's super risky. It feels so risky to be, to be vulnerable because it feels like there's so much, you know, danger. Yeah, but. But I think the reality is, is that when we drop all of that fear and we're just honest about the process, it is rewarded like it is. And because everybody wants. And, and when we're doing, when we're authentically trying to improve and we're authentically looking at what we're not doing well and we're saying to ourselves and even willing to show other people.

If we.

Can tell those stories more openly, we can, we can be examples for other people. We can be influencing other people and like showing them the path because the people who are doing it well, if they don't show the other, you know, show others that path, then. Then there's no model.

Yeah.

So I think, I think those of us who are, you know, doing our best should, should be more. Just broadcast a little bit more. Not to, not to brag, not to say I'm doing it perfectly, but like to show a model.

Yeah, yeah. But I think it links back to the whole purpose thing because, you know, purpose is, you know, the reason for which somebody's made or created useful. Usefulness. But within the human context, it's also you being the truest version of you. It's like, you know, if you look at the. And this. And this kind of overlaps to. But if you can be the most authentic version of your business that's pushing for the best that it can do with the constraints and the resources that you've got. No one can ask for more than that. I mean.

Exactly.

They can, but you genuinely can't be doing any more. You know, you can sleep at night going, I know we're not perfect, but we're doing the best that we can. And you know, that that level of contentment is actually kind of what we're all looking for, you know, but totally hidden amongst all the other marketing messaging of, no, just have a faster car with a bigger house and go on a nice holiday.

A whole other topic. Yeah, well, with a few, few minutes that we've got left, can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, how do you go about helping companies who are the want to be helping and how, how could people engage with you if they're interested in this?

Totally. So the, the B Corp impact assessment, it's. If you want to go through it and get it all done, it's kind of like you have to take an open book exam, but you've not been told that you need to take an exam. And the exam's actually in Swahili. And basically we're the book that you can bring in and we're kind of like some kind of Hogwarts book that talks and it can translate lots of funky languages, including Swahili. So basically we, we have a process that just makes it really efficient. We try and make it fun. It's because it can be quite. Basically it's a pretty dry online checkbox assessment that you need to go through, which is not that fun really. So we try and bring a bit of humor, make it a bit of fun. We're also really, really dogmatic about bringing your team on the journey because the worst you can do, and we see this happen time and time again, a company will go and do it by themselves and they'll have one person in the company who's gone through the assessment by themselves. They sit in a queue for a few months. They finally get Veri and then they send an all company email. Hey, everyone, we're a B corp. We'll go, were we a C corp and why aren't we an A corp?

Like this means what it means.

Yes, we're really dogmatic about making you bring your team on the journey because if you just nail the internal employee journey, you're going to pay, you know, get your return on investment. For any investment that you might need to make on the journey, you're going to get that back like 100 times. Yes. So literally we just sit down either one on one or we work in cohorts, if industry groups kind of align or if you've got a similar kind of product type, service to type. And literally we just go through the assessment with people line by line and go, right, what do you understand by this question? And people normally go, we think it means that. And I go, no, it doesn't mean that, it actually means this. And they go, ah, right. And then they go, no, we're not doing that. Or they go, yeah, we are doing that. So yeah, we just, we just take them through that process. We have loads of resources for people. So there's, there's examples where, you know, for a lot of small to medium businesses, you might not have a code of ethics and a whistleblower policy, but you kind of go, well, actually that's not a bad thing to do. And yeah, we do have a pretty big team now. Bigger than I kind of thought. Oh yeah, we do have 10 people. So maybe actually having A whistleblower policy is not a bad thing. Cool. So we've got, like, templates and resources where, like, we've got a white label copy of stuff like that. Like, that's yours, put your logo on it, tell everyone that you've got it, educate people what it is and why you've got it. But, you know, we've done the heavy lifting for you. And the other thing we're really big on is we've got a community where all our clients that we're working with come and join the community. And like, classic example, Jamie, who's got a business here based in New Zealand, really cool little B Corp, they make edible coffee cups. It's like, out of this sort of biscuity material. So you drink your coffee, then you eat your cup, you know, zero waste. Fantastic. He's just launched in the uk.

Well, that's zero waste.

Not totally zero waste. Pretty close to zero, but good waste.

Sorry.

He's just got his first employee and he sort of messaged in the community, hey, has anyone got a template for an employee, an offer of employment? And Wendy, who's from Kin Recruitment, was like, yeah, I'll send you one. You know, so, just trying to help everyone. And we've had one lady in our group get sponsorship for her podcast from one of the other members in our group. So, you know, we just want to get a community of really cool businesses who want to be the best for the world, like all B corps, and just help us all get on and do some really cool stuff. That's basically what we're about.

I got a selfish question. Where are you guys organizing? What tool are you using to keep the conversations in the community connected?

Like, so currently we're using Facebook, which is a Facebook group. We are looking at a couple of other options. Facebook being Facebook. It's interesting. Like, we did a poll a few months ago, said, look, Facebook, yay or nay. And people kind of like, it was split. People like, yeah, Facebook is easy because I go on Facebook. Then others are like, no, I hate Facebook. I'm never on here and it's annoying. So I don't see stuff. I don't think there's any easy answer we've got.

Seemed like Discord is. Is becoming a community center, but I'm just curious. We don't have to go too far on that. Yeah, I'll.

We'll have a chat.

I'd love to. I'd love to hear what you guys come up with and what you learned, because I think this is a. A Gap in the world that isn't. There's no.

The latest one I've seen is called Circles or Circles. Yeah, that looks pretty good. I'm okay. We've got a few things we want to. There's a couple of other communities we want to build around the whole B Corp thing. Yes, we're, we're just looking at that and I think over Christmas I'm probably going to commit to that and start building some stuff over Christmas and then have it ready to launch next year.

I'd love to keep talking to you about that. So for those people out there that might be interested, what's the best way to kind of engage with you to learn more?

Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends where you're on the journey. If you're kind of like yeah, we know what B Corp is, we want to go just if you go to growgood Co, you can book a call with me, we can have a chat, we can see if we can help you. If you're kind of like this Bight thing sounds mildly interesting. You can download a free ebook from our website which is the. Well I've self titled it the definitive guide to B Corp. Feedback has been. It's been a really good overview of what B Corp is, why you should maybe look at it. It's got some stats around, you know, employees looking for this kind of stuff and customers, what have you. So it's a pretty good high level overview of yeah. What B Corp is, what the journey looks like. So yeah, those would be. And always happy to connect on LinkedIn. Semi regular posting of content through LinkedIn would be my main sort of platform.

Yeah, nice. We'll link to those things in the show notes. Awesome. Well, so you know, just for the conversation today to this point I really enjoy it and I've really enjoyed it and I appreciate what you're doing. Just a couple of wrap up questions that I like to ask. When you look at the world, your, your world, you know, whatever you're seeing, kind of the world you see through your lens, what's something that when you look forward 10 to 20 years that you see a trend that makes you really optimistic.

So my kind of my vision, my, my, my thoughts would be that within 20 years B Corp will be the, the benchmark for business standard if you're not and we're already seeing this. So like Xero, one of the world's biggest accounting, you know, online accounting tools, they just launched a partnership with a carbon tracking tool that like talks to zero. So you can kind of report that I don't think we're far off. Yeah. That. That going to become the standard? Probably not. Maybe not B Corp as, like, as a. As a fairly rigorous standard, but I think as a business, it's no longer just you do your tax return and you pay some tax. It's like, have you done anything socially? Have you done anything environmentally? Are your staff? Have you got good engagement internally? I kind of think that's where we're going to go.

Agree. I love it. And if you could recommend a book to listeners, what would it be?

So this was a good one. When you, when you sent me this one, I was like, oh man.

Just recently I have just been all in on podcasts. I feel bad. I've got a good mate of mine, he just sends me book recommendations. I can't remember this Japanese word which describes books that you own that you will never read.

But anyway, is there. Of course there is.

Yes. And. But one of the books that I just love, I loved reading was the Count of Monte Cristo by Alexander Dumas.

And I've heard that's good.

I've actually just recently read a book. So interesting fact about him, his dad was originally from Haiti, or as it was the Dominican Republic, I think it used to be called, before it was called Haiti. So his dad was black and he was a general in Napoleon's army. And I've just read a biography about his life and that would. Those two together are pretty cool because you kind of see where it's going. But for those of you who haven't watched the movie or read the book, the County Monte Cristo is based about a guy who is imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. And then the rest of the book is about how he then meets all the people that led to him being arrested. How he confronts them. I don't know. It's kind of like a really cool story about someone who does good out of really bad situation. Yeah, I think it. I think it under. Underlines just a sense of justice that I feel it's like, no, you should be held to account for doing something that's bad. And he certainly gets his. He gets his.

Thank you. Thank you for that recommendation. I'll. I haven't read any fiction in a long time, so kind of kind of itching to read some fictional. I'll add that to my list. Thank you. So I recently read a book called. That I would ultra highly recommend. Very quick read called Long Path by Ari Wallach.

Right.

And in this book he talks about what kind of an ancestor do you want to be? And I think, I think you would really. I think you would really enjoy this book. But the reason I bring it up is just kind of in closing. Thank you for. Thank you for the. Being an ancestor. It's like thinking about one of the things he talks about in the book. He says that Mother Teresa said one of the problems with humans is that we draw the circle of our family too small.

Yeah.

And so thinking about descendants, you know, just the amount of people in generations to come that the work you're doing is impacting. And so I just want to say thank you for, for the work you're doing and appreciate it. The impact that it's going to have down the line.

That's cool. I think I, I talk about that with the Welsh flag. So I'm half Welsh.

I remember you said that.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's like, you know, the Welsh flag is a red dragon with a green bottom half and a white top half behind it, representing the sort of the ground and the sky. And the Welsh dragon, was it Kens, more immediately from a guy called Uther Pendragon, who, if King Arthur did exist, he was possibly a close blood relative. And it's like, well, where did he get it from? Well, he got the Red Dragon from the Draco Legion, which was a Roman cavalry legion active in Britain. Where did they got it from? Well, they got it from Da, which is ancient Romania. Where did the Dacians get it from? We don't know. And so I, I look at the Welsh flag as a symbol that I am the current holder or the connection that goes back to ancient data. And it's the thing. I'm, I'm. I'm the next Jones in line. Well, am I doing all right as a Jones or am I being a bit of a dick? It's like I think I'm doing all right on balance. But yeah, I think it's a really. I totally agree. It's a really powerful thing to think about. Am I honoring who basically died to get me here, you know, who had their lives to get me here. And, and for me, the immediate one was like, you know, and this kind of was the catalyst. All it was in having a daughter. It's like, what am I leaving to her? But yeah, you start extending that. Yeah, we're really bad in the west that thinking anything longer than a month.

Yeah, that's what the book is all about is the problems with short termism. And yeah, I think you'll, I think you'll enjoy the book, but.

Well, then add it to my pile.

Thank you for redefining what it means to keep up with the Joneses then.

Exactly.

Awesome. All right, on that note, cheers, Matt. Thank you, Tim. Really enjoyed it.

Likewise.

All right, we'll just cut it there. And thank you so much. Really enjoyed it.

You have.

I've got a speaking engagement I gotta run to pretty quick, but just quickly, do you have any, any feedback you could think of for me? Anything you think we can improve?

That was great. Good chats. Perfect. Enjoyed it. Yeah.

Two other questions I'd like to ask. Is there. What could you think of that I could be doing to support you right now?

Good question. Just, yeah, any shout outs or connections that you know, people who you think like, hey, look, actually you just should be A B corp, like that would be super cool.

I have it in my mind to push this internally with my, my leadership team for us. And I would, I would love to actually, you know, arrange a cohort of other companies we could do this with together. So that, that's definitely on my mind.

And.

Yeah, got some other ideas in mind as well. I'll definitely float them around. Last question. Is there, you know, who could you think of that I should either interview or that I should know if there's anyone you could think of?

Let me have a ponder on that one.

Yeah, just keep it in mind.

Yeah, there's a, there's a few sort of tech based companies that, you know, have, you know, they're on the B Corp journey certainly that I'm connected with locally. There's one guy, Dan Fowley, he started a company here called Trinio and they, they went through B Corp and then sold to a B Corp and then that B Corp got sold to Salesforce. That could be an interesting story from it in terms of like a CEO founder who went on the money journey, then kind of connected to the purpose journey and then. Yeah, so, yeah, I'll give that, give that some thought.

Okay. That'd be amazing. Thank you. All right, well, we'll be in touch with scheduling when this will go live and yeah, looking forward to talking soon. Thanks so much, man.

Have a good, have a good talk. Talk soon. Cheers. Bye bye.