#52 Talking to Becky Fox Founder of susMBA about B Corp, purpose and meaning in work

Is this it? Have I got like another whatever it was at the time, you know, 30, 40, 50 years of working in jobs like this where I know that what I'm doing is having a negative impact on people and the planet. Certified as B Corp. Number six in New Zealand, basically. B Corp. B Corp. B Corp. B Corp.

So in this conversation I am talking to Tim Jones, who's also known as that B Corp bloke. Tim has certified so many or helped certify so many B Corps in New Zealand. He's probably one of the experts on the certification. If you don't know what B Corp certification is, is it's a really, really vigorous process that certifies the most sustainable companies there are. So you're thinking about Ben and Jerry's Patagonia. Tim's journey to creating his own business was quite interesting. He used to work in sales and marketing for big corporate medical equipment companies and real estate. But after the Christchurch earthquakes and the birth of his first child, he just became a bit disillusioned with the lack of purpose that he was getting from these jobs and meaning. So he looked elsewhere and then this is where he discovered B Corp certification. The problem was there really wasn't any B Corps in the country at that point. So Tim set out to build his own company and within that he certified himself as a B Corp. Initially the company was going to be helping sales and marketing for other purpose led companies. But pretty soon people started reaching out to him for advice on how to get through the really, really difficult certificate.

That is B Corp.

Eventually he realized that he probably should pivot and he started helping other people.

Certify through the certificate.

And this is primarily what he does now and what we spoke about. We also went on to talk about how do you hire a team that aligns with your values and how do you also delegate to this team as a founder and being able to trust.

People to do work with you?

We looked at building a community around your brand and we also touched upon imposter syndrome and all the difficulties there and all the thoughts that go through your mind when you leave the corporate world and start trying to build a business for yourself. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation and found it as interesting as I did. I hope I'll leave all of Tim's details below. So if you're thinking about B Corp certification, please make sure you reach out.

Yeah, I remember just walking out of the operating theater one lunchtime in Auckland and just went home to my wife and said I'm done. Can't do it anymore. Like I've just, I know how these guys are operating. The orthopedic surgeon I was working with that day was just being a real ass, which is fairly common, you know, just abusing the surgical team. Things aren't going well so they just shout and get angry. They're just like big kids really. And I just thought, you know, you're, everyone here is trying to help you fix this and I know that you're earning tons and tons of money and this nurse that you're shouting is possibly on, you know, minimum wage with the hours that she actually does and she's just trying to help. So yeah, that was kind of where I call it my hard Brexit from the corporate world. It was like, you know, is this it? Have I got like another whatever was at the time, you know, 30, 40, 50 years of working in jobs like this where I know that what I'm doing is having a negative impact on people on the planet. And so that's when yeah, I've started doing some Internet research and went on a bit of a journey of self discovery and purpose and what have you. And as part of that, yes, stumbled across B Corp. And it's like, oh, hello there might be, I might be mad, I might be thinking that this is, you know, a really bad way of running the show. But there's a. At the time I think it was about maybe 1500 other businesses that are equally bonkers as me. So let's go and have a chat then.

How did you realize there was a gap for. Hold on, like I can do this, I can go and start my own purpose led business.

Yeah. So I connected with Steve Arda who is CEO of Eagle Protect, who are the first B Corp. And so yeah, like I say, there was only two B Corps in the, in the country at that time. And it's like, well, you're not hiring. And I kind of don't actually really care about selling disposable gloves. I'm sure Steve loves it. But yeah, I'm kind of like.

So at that time my only logical thing was to do my own business. Like I'd been talking to people about B Corp by this point for a couple of years or about a year. So yeah, it would have been like 2014, sometime like mid or early 2014 that I discovered B Corp. And so I'd been hanging out with Steve a lot. He was running lots of events and open evenings at their warehouse depot, you know, trying to spread the word about B Corp. So I was like hey, look, know, can I just come and help? So I was just helping out, you know, doing whatever needs to be done. So I was kind of telling everyone else that they should be a B corp. And then, yeah, when I got this opportunity, you know, opportunity of being made redundant in late 2015, I was kind of like, if I don't, if I don't give my own giga go now, I'll probably never do it. Because, you know, I think the older you get, it's just harder and harder to get out of the corporate mill. But I just, I just realized I was fundamentally unemployable at that point. Like I just, I'd look on seek or what have you and you look at the, the descriptions of the job and you just go, that's just complete horse. What's it like? I. I can just. I've been there before. I know exactly what you're saying here actually means it's micromanager from hell. It's awful conditions. Nobody can, like, you can just read. And I'm just like, I'm gonna, I'll have to spend hours writing cover letters and talking and like lying in interviews to say I really want this job. And I was like, no, just can't do it. So, yeah, so let's go out. Go out by myself. So, yeah, when I initially went out by myself, I thought, well, the thing that I had been doing with the training companies was a lot of sales training and, you know, that was my background. So initially I was kind of like, well, if I can help other companies that are trying to solve big global challenges be better at selling so that they win, well, that's a good place to start. So, yeah, that's where, where I started. So did that. And then probably by about 2016, 2017, a couple of mates were like, oh, that. So, yeah, 20. By 2016, I certified grow good as a B corp. So, yeah, went out my own late 2015, like September, October 2015, by July, certified as B Corp number six in New Zealand. And so, yeah, at that point a few, you know, a few mates were kind of like, oh, that B corp stuff. Yeah, actually kind of get it. We might be keen to have a look. I think my first payment was basically a pot of tea for helping a mate go through their B corp assessment. And then the second one was a curry and two beers. So, yeah, it was sort of mates sort of going, hey, can you give us a hand? Like at least you've been through it. And I don't really know what they're Talking about so very much just like muddling our way through and like. Well, I think that, I don't know, they're probably asking for this. Yeah, let's just, let's like answer that, see what happens.

And then yeah, over the last few years and really in the last 18 months to two years we've pretty much gone from sales training with a Sprinkler B Corp to now it's basically almost 100B corp consulting that we're now doing.

When you say we now who's, who's that?

Yeah, so I've got a small team, I've got so.

B Lab who runs the B Corp certification framework. They over the last couple of years have been running training to become what's called a B consultant. So I was pretty fortunate to be the first Kiwi to go through that. So tick in the box, number one. Happy days. And so I've got Jess on my team who's also been through that training and then I've got a couple of sort of part time contract assistance for yeah, you know, admin type stuff and occasionally bring in some creative type peoples just to ju up stuff. But 90% of it is still me. But yeah, trying to build a small team so that we can scale and do more.

And how's the. I guess if they're coming over with the same vision I was going to ask from you having a vision and a purpose to now having a company where you're bringing in staff. You know, these staff might be the ones that are sitting on seat looking at those old job applications and now they actually see a company like yours.

Yeah.

How do you keep that meaning and purpose within your business as your, as your team grows?

That's going to be the big question. You know Jess, she reached out to me on LinkedIn and was just like, hey, I really like what you do. When I grow up, I kind of like to be what you do. And I was kind of like, well do you want to come and help me do some stuff? Because I kind of need some help right now. So she, she had a full time job when she started working for me so she was just doing some contract hours and what have you, so. Well, she's still doing contract hours but yeah, you know there was definitely, there was a values alignment and she was like, like I want to do what you do. And it's like well cool, well come and have a look. Come see what it is all about. Come and help me. Come and learn the ropes. And then like I say, yeah, we, we got her through the, through the training. It's, it's, I think it's hard for kind of solo business owners perhaps because you know, I am the business and the business is me. Like everything in the business is a reflection of me including the insane rubbishness of the admin and operational side of it behind the scenes. And there's, there's like mess kind of everywhere digitally and even probably if I showed you the rest of my office but that's how I operate and you know there's just, there's so much that's in my head. You know when we're going through like an impact assessment I'll just go, oh yeah, you're just like so and so company that I did two years ago and yeah, we can just tick this one because I just know and that that's the real challenge is getting stuff out of here to operationalize it to then. Yeah. Help make the boat go faster. Because at the minute the boat, the slowness, the speed of the boat is dictated by how fast I can get rid of stuff that I shouldn't be doing.

I was going to say as well that one hopefully in being able to scale for yourself that would be good but also freeing up your own time because at the moment everything is on you. But is it, is it hard as a founder to offload and to delegate 100%?

Yep. Because the classic thing is you kind of go oh look, I could, I could get them to do that but by the time I explained it and get to do it, I could just do it. But you've got to remember that that one time explanation is an investment in the thousand times that you're not going to have to do it again.

So yeah, I feel like I've heard that's a similar.

I don't even know if it's.

I wouldn't class it as an issue potentially because there's so many pros and cons for everything but a lot of purpose led businesses and B corps there is that real founder influence still within the business. You know, like the business is them and because it's come from so much passion.

Yeah.

But being able to then yeah. Allow other people in on your brain and how it works.

I think it's the same. Yeah. I mean having even the property consultancy that I work for, you know, there were three founding directors and you know they, they all had different ideas as to where, you know. So it's. Having a small business is like having a child. It's like. And it's your child and you know You. You know what's best for it. It's like, yeah, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you actually do need something to come in and go, do you know what? You can't actually do that or you shouldn't do that because it's not in their best interest. And I think, yeah, that's going to be the big challenge. Yeah, it's knowing when to sort of let go and when to bring someone in to take over. Because there's a whole lot of stuff that I do that I'll be doing badly. But I've always done it and it's like, yeah, but I get it done. It might be ugly, but it gets done. And it's like, well, yeah, but can you do that better?

I mean, I get. Luckily, I guess in your position, you're surrounded by so many other businesses that you could be learning from, so that mentoring relationship, but you're kind of organically getting it through.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. And there's, you know, there's a group of mates I've got who we all run similar size enterprises and, you know, a couple of them are also kind of in the training consulting arena. So it's like, we're always pretty good at, like, how you should do this. Like, this is working really, really well. I think it will work for you.

Just thinking back from what you're talking previously, where you was going to start up as the sales and started giving this B Corp advice that slowly obviously, like pivoted over towards that angle, you know, which is probably quite good. But did you have to then start going out and finding clients or did they. Were they literally then just knocking on your door?

The big challenge I've had over the years is B market, or the market for B Corp wasn't there in 20, 20, 15, 2016. Like, I've been called number six. Like, you say the word B Corp to people, then that's like literally got no idea what you're on about. So I kind of. And coming out of a training company, it's quite common for New Zealand businesses because the market is quite small that you kind of have to offer a multiple of options to kind of like, well, we can get some money here, get some money there, because it's normally just not the market. And so I think I carried that mindset over where it's like, well, I need to have some sales trading and I'll do some purpose stuff and I'll do some B Corp stuff. And the challenge with that is that you end up being no. 1 to anyone. Instead of being something to someone. And that's really been a challenge over the years because it's like, well, do I kind of go all in on the sales stuff and just make all my messaging around scaling purpose driven business, which I kind of was for the first few years or first probably two or three years and then it was like, actually I've kind of care more about the purpose stuff and getting people thinking about their journey to purpose with always having the B Corp message in the background. But then really over the last 18, it was about 18 months two years ago, I was actually part of a marketing coaching program and that's also been. So, you know, I have invested in myself over the years as well, particularly around mindset and just, you know, it can be quite lonely being a solo entrepreneur. So just being in a group of other people going on similar journeys and realizing that okay, yep, it's not just me.

Yeah. Doing some work with a marketing coach about two years ago and he, his first question on the, on the call we jumped on was like, cool, so what's working for you right now? And I said, oh, it's funny you mentioned it. Like, just started getting a lot of inbound inquiries on the B Corp stuff. And he's like, cool, so why are we working on a sales training funnel for you? And I'm like, yeah, that's a really good question. That's why you're the marketing coach and I'm not. And he's like, yes, why don't you build a funnel around your B Corp? And I was like, you know what? Yeah, he's right. Like the market is now ready for the message. So pretty much that night I reskinned my website and it's like basically B Corp, B Corp Big or B Corp. All my marketing messaging is everything. You know, whatever the post is like, and that's why it's a B Corp or that's why. Or you know, it's all connected to B Corp. So just pushing that message and now we've got a really good base of clients. Like I say, I had an aim of getting about, of doing 100 clients in 12 months and we're going to be there or thereabouts.

So that's that focus around one message, one product to one kind of core customer, which is basically, we're a company that wants to get B Corp certified, but we don't know how to, or we've given it a go and we're stuck. That's working really well, but equally the market is ready for that message. Whereas three years ago, four years ago, it wasn't ready for that message. So there was a lot of hustling and just door knocking. Yeah, like, hey, you're a cool company. Do some cool stuff. Do you want to have a talk about how I can help you grow your business so you can do more good? So, yeah, that was a lot of it. But, yeah, we're here now. B Corp Ahoy.

And so there's still some lumps and bumps in the road at the moment, or is it kind of cruising quite.

Well at the minute? Touchwood. We're cruising pretty well. Like I say, just having that singular message. We're getting really good referrals from our clients, which says, you know, we're doing okay. The, the sort of. The two metrics that I'm really trying to get on top of is, you know, what score did you come to us with, what score did you submit on and what score did you get verified? Because then we can kind of go, okay, most people come to us with an average score of this. We submit with an average score of this. And then really, what's the, the next gap is what's our accuracy in terms of our consulting? It's like if we, if we submit you on 120 and you get 80, well, clearly we're not that good sometimes. And you know, there is nuance with some parts of the assessment. And I'm always very open to say, look, I think these points are questionable. I don't think this is 100%. But my approach is always, it's better to be bullish and claim the points and be told no than to not claim them. Because the auditor's job is not to say, hey, Becky, what about here? Do you do this like, it's kind of my job to, to push and go. I think that is actually what they're looking for here. But yes, sometimes it can be a little bit of a gray area. But so far I'm pretty happy. Well, I'm very happy with the, the accuracy of our consulting.

These types of interactions you're having are probably not one off. Right. You're going to be with a company for a period of time, following them journey. So how, how's. How's that? I guess from your sales background or something. Is that something you probably feel quite good at?

Yeah. Really? I had to really kind of relearn how to sell because it's a lot more laid back, a lot more friendly. But I've always had like a bit of a. Almost like a bit of a wall, not A wall. But like, I've always tried to keep a professional kind of distance between client and you know, and I think that's having come from a corporate environment, you know, you kind of, you have to do that. But what I've definitely learned over the last few years is like actually everyone's just a human in business and that's been a really big learning for me on the last couple of years with the B Corp journey. Which is why, you know, we've currently got a sort of Facebook group, but we're looking at moving it off Facebook. But we've got a community of all our clients. Like when you start working with us, you come and join the community. And then also we're building up towards some input. Well, we did, we did an in person event in Auckland a few months ago. So all our Auckland clients like come say hi, we'll just have some drinks, just say, just come and meet each other. Yes, a community and getting to know your customers.

Because what we want to do is build a next level community called Beyond B Corp, where we're going to work with people who like, we've done B Corp, but actually we recognize that there's way more beyond that that we need to be thinking about. So yeah, building this next level community, bringing in partners, experts around that to help people go to the next level. And yeah, so yeah, community, community, community.

Doing business in New Zealand. So interesting. And I think there were two things that you talked about. One like just how your behavior is and how people are. And like you said, it's, it's, it's a lot more casual in some ways. But then also like you're saying initially when you built, you were trying to have a lot of different areas that you could potentially bring revenue in from. But then also then that kind of hindered your progress. Like you said, being, trying to be something to everyone and being nothing to nobody. But yeah.

Were you nervous then when you decided.

To kind of just dive straight into, okay, this is just the one thing I'm going to offer and I'm just going to stop looking at these other areas.

No, like we still can help with the other stuff. So, you know, and we've got a few people that we're talking to about sales training or what have you, but just having this kind of core message around, like be called. Be called. Be called. Which is why, you know, I used to call myself the Grow Good Guy because it's kind of, I kind of like the idea of having some kind of moniker. I think it just helps From a marketing perspective was like, I've now changed that to that B Corp bloke. Because literally the number of times I've had people book an appointment through my calendar thing, I don't know who they are. And they go, oh, I was speaking to Dave and Dave said that you're like the B Corp bloke that I should talk to. So it's like, well, let's just run with that. And so, yeah, having the core messaging just around B Corp has been really transformational for the business because it's just really clear. It's like, we help you get B Corp certified really quickly and efficiently with a bit of fun. It's like, okay, well, if you were looking for B Corp, we're probably your people. But then once we've got them and we've gone through the assessment and we're working with them, you basically have. It's like having a waf. You know, we look. We get to look through an entire business and then it's like, well, cool. Look, do you. You're not measuring your carbon. Okay. Do you want to. Is that of interest? Yes, it is. Okay, well, we've got a couple of people that we can point you towards who can help you do that. Or, you know, one of the first few questions is around purpose. It's like, oh, yeah, we haven't really got a purpose. Not really. What's like, well, let's park that for now. But we can probably help you with that. So either we can help or. And again, you know, you get to look at a company's revenue and it's like, oh, okay, would you like some help getting your revenue back up? Because we could possibly help you. So, yeah, you kind of build quite a high level of trust with a client. You get to understand how they're, what they're trying to achieve, how they're working, you know, all the rest of it. And then, yeah, we will either connect them or say some. Look, we can genuinely help you with that. And so it's working. From a market, sales and marketing perspective, it's working, you know, really well because it's like one clear message product, but with the ability to sort of pull through other products that we would have tried to have a conversation with them about, but would have just confused the message and they would just walk away going, well, I'm not really sure, like, what do they do? And do we need to work? I don't know. Whereas, like I say now, it's just kind of like, let's just start with B Corp, let's just smash that and then we can worry about the rest of it.

One thing I was just speaking to somebody else about as well is like, you put yourself out there quite a lot. You're pretty, you know, like you said, you're pretty charismatic person and stuff, but when it comes to business and when you're standing up and you're telling people things and, and how they can do stuff and. And why they might need to do it, do you ever have sort of that, like, imposter syndrome of. Of like, oh, what do I know? Why should I be saying this?

Or, you know, Totally, totally. And I mean to. I remember hovering over my first LinkedIn post, having gone out by myself, and I'm like, I can't post this. Like, who am I to be? It was. It was a post around sales stuff, because that's what I was kind of focused on at the time. And I remember just like, oh, my gosh, like, who am I to be saying this? And I posted it and it got, like, it got thousands of views. And I'm like, oh.

Okay, maybe I do know some stuff. And. But yeah, for the first couple of years, that. That's where I kind of invested a bit of. Bit of money was on mindset coaching. Because when you are the business, any, you know, feeling of lack or, you know, any. Any blocks that you have here will block your business. 100 and that. Imposter syndrome. Yeah, I mean, I remember one of my first coaches I had, you know, early on, he was like, okay, so let's talk about pricing. And I'm like, yeah, cool. He's so how much are you charging for like a. A day's training? And I was like, well, it's X. And he goes, cool. How. How did you get that pricing? I said, well, I've taken what my previous employer was charging and I've taken 500 bucks off it. And he's like, cool. So is your training better than the training you were delivering for that previous company? Well, hell yeah. Like, it's way more interactive. It's. I think it's better content. He's like, right, so why are you charging $500 less than that? Yeah, I don't know. Well, because you don't back yourself. The big thing for me, you know, looking back, is to be a consultant, a coach, or a trainer, you only need to know one more thing than the person you're coaching, teaching, or consulting to. And as long as that one thing that you know is the thing that they don't know. And Then and there's a value exchange for it, then you're in business. And the key is just one is to have that real clarity as to what it is that you have the knowledge of and just be clear that the other person doesn't have that knowledge. And that is the knowledge, I guess value gap. Yeah, but it's, it's really intimately linked to your own sort of sense of self worth and yeah mental state because you are the business. But after a while you do get to a point where you kind of go look, I'm pretty solid in what I'm saying is, is, is bang on. Obviously always willing to be corrected. And sometimes yes someone will particularly around the B corp and the impact on the purpose stuff that's a little bit more nebulous in some areas. Whereas sales stuff is pretty much standardized. It's like everyone knows like the set frameworks and ways that you do stuff.

So I think you have to have a level of confidence that what you believe to be true is true. But be willing to be open to have someone say actually there's new research on that and you need to update that. It's like cool, I'll go and do that. I'll go and check it and I'll, I will update it. And I've definitely done that over the years.

Yeah, that's so interesting because I think a lot of people, the fact that you had the insight of knowing that potentially was something that you were hesitant about but then having the foresight to go and invest in yourself and that time for you you saw it as an investment. Whereas for other, sometimes they see it as a, oh, I can't, I don't want to ask for help or acknowledge that this is something I'm not good at or I'm, I'm not necessarily not good at. But that imposter, they see it as like a weakness that potentially they just need to like not talk about or you know, because everybody else has all their stuff together. It's only just me.

That was my big realization in adulting is that no one knows what they're doing. Like no one knows what they're doing. We're all making their up. That's you know and some, some are better at not showing that they're making it up than others and others don't want to admit that they're waking it up and so don't give it a go. But fundamentally very few if any people actually know what they're doing in business and or life. It's like we're Just muddling through this.

I think I used to think about it and I think I saw an interview with Brianne from Etique and she was saying, like, just throwing spaghetti at the wall, see which one sticks. Carry on.

Pretty much, yeah, you know that. And that's kind of been, to a degree, what I've been doing. It's like sales Purpose, B Corp, like, let's just put stuff out there and you take the business as it comes in. And I think that'd be the other thing you. I think as a startup business, you pretty much just say yes. It's like, hey, can you do this? Yep, we can do that.

And then you learn, not.

Not entirely sure how I'm going to do that, but we'll give it a go. Yeah.

So do you think sometimes like saying yes, those things that are a bit outside your comfort zone or you don't feel prepared for yet in order to push you to sort of grow?

Yeah, I think there's a growth element to it. And like I say sometimes you. Unless it's like genuinely something that you know nothing about, but if it's kind of like, yeah, look, I think I know enough to be dangerous to pull something together, to deliver something along that topic. Yeah, I'm comfortable to give that a go. When it gets to that point, we're like, actually, this is just not me. Then have someone that you can send them to. But yeah, I think early on, as a consultant or coach, it's kind of like, yep, let's give that a go. And then you go and research it and you can deliver some good content.

What's your opinion then on sort of like jack of all trades or master of one sort of thing when it comes to business?

Yeah, I mean, like I say that's. That has been me until pretty recently. I think, partly, though, you, you. For me, I definitely need like a little bit of.

I need more than one thing to keep my brain interested. Like, if you just go. If I just had to do the same thing over and over again day in, day out, the rest of my life, like, yeah, nah, like, I need that variety. But, you know, like today I've done a podcast, we're doing this chat. You know, yesterday I was doing some consulting. So, you know, there's a good mix in, in what I do. I do, you know, some training and coaching stuff going on. So I get. I have a pretty good mix. But I think in general, you know, from a, from a business perspective, if you can get really clear on one problem for one client with one Message like that that is the path to success. And it's partly as we were talking about with that founder thing, is knowing what to give up. You know, it's like, yeah, I can keep pushing the barrow that I can do that purpose stuff, but how many people have actually rung me about that? Well, not that many. Okay. But more people are ringing me about the B Corp stuff. Okay. So maybe I actually just need to put that down for a bit. But it's hard because I think, particularly if you are of an entrepreneurial bent, you know, everything's an opportunity, but not everything is an opportunity now.

You know, that the market is really wanting what you're offering and you're out there. But a lot of people can sometimes look and not see the grind and the patience had, leading, leading up to that. And that's why I'm so fascinated in all these stories, actually. You know, it's not usually a linear process and it's not usually something where someone. I went and studied it and now I do it. It's a real change. And, and the pivoting that happens as well within that process.

It's interesting, there's been a few people I've been talking to over the last, you know, year or so in B Corp related industries who are like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go out and be a consultant. And then they give it three months and go, holy cow. Like, this is just shit, you know, like, I haven't paid a bill for three months. It's awful. And I think people do perhaps have this perception that, yeah, it's like, I'm just gonna go out and become a consultant and, you know, it's going to be easy money. And it's like, it's not. You know, if I look at my hourly rate over the last six years, possibly not being that great, I probably would have got more money flipping burgers at Maccas, you know, working 16 hour shifts.

But I'm. I love what I do. It's meaningful, it's purposeful, it is me. It's what I want to do. You know, I kind of love it. But yeah, it's pretty hard journey. I think you need, you need to be of a certain disposition to, to be a consultant by yourself. Yeah, like I said, we've definitely seen a lot of people in and around, like the sustainability industry who like, you only go out and be a sustainability consultant or what have you, and then six months later they're like, yeah, you know, actually I kind of quite like a job because they pay me every month.

I was chatting someone previously and they were saying they had sort of this optimistic naivety when they kind of started into their business. And I know the first business I had with my husband, it was the same thing. We just were completely nai. And at the moment, I'm helping somebody else start up their company, and it sort of gives me actually a bit more anxiety, and I actually feel a bit more crazy that I'm actually helping to do this, because I can foresee what potentially, like, could be happening down the line. How do you feel like with. With Grow Good. If you kind of had to start again, do you think you kind of. Just like you said. Yeah, yeah. Would you go into it a bit differently? Like, the mindset or.

Yeah, if I had the mindset and the knowledge that I have now, I'd be absolutely dangerous. You know, it would have just been one, like I say, one message, one market, one product, you know, build a community around it from day one. Yeah. Just everything that I'm now doing. But I think in some ways, you kind of need to go on that journey.

Yeah.

If I was starting a business fresh today, I'd go and do a ton of customer research. I just go, hey, look, I just want to know, like, is this a problem for you? If someone could solve it for you and it looked like this, would that be of interest? Like, that would be 101, which I didn't do. It was kind of like, well, people probably do need sales training. I've just come out of it. I know some people. Let's just email some people. And that, I think, is the other. The other thing that I can rely on as a salesperson. And I've. I've noticed this, like, when I do massive amounts of outbound sales, I get busy. And that's, again, something that I think a lot of people. A lot of people in business, full stop, don't or can't do. It's like, I don't care about sending a thousand emails in a week to a thousand people to say, hey, can I help you with this? Is this a problem for you? Broadly speaking. And from that, you might get 60 clients. Cool. A lot of people are just kind of like, well, I'm here. I've done my. I'm doing my marketing. Like, where are they? It's like, yep. I mean, again, you know, we're in a position now where we've got a good reputation, we're getting those referrals. I'm getting regular people booking in for a call. Or downloading our ebook and, you know, going through a bit of a sequence with us, but I still do outbound emails. Was like, hey, I like what you're doing. Have you heard of B Corp? I think you might be a good. A good B Corp. Let me know if you want to have a chat about it.

And I think a lot of people don't like doing that. It's either. It's like it's beneath me or I just don't like doing it because it's sales and sales is icky. Yeah.

Or it feels unnerving because I think a lot of people. You don't want that. No email.

Oh, my God.

Can't believe I just said they don't like me. They hate me. It's like, because you are the business, so all of that goes through your head. Yeah. Whereas now I'm just kind of like, map your loss. Like, we'd have had a ton of fun working together, but you're clearly boring and you don't want to go and have some fun with me, so. Or whatever.

Good way of looking at it. Amazing. Tim, thank you so much for your time.

No worries.

And just all that insight. And I know that I found a lot of that stuff really helpful, and I've been starting to do a little bit of business mentoring, and there's a lot of questions that people have that I think they're so similar with the things that I was talking about today. And hopefully.

Yep.

I know that those people will find it really interesting and helpful.

So cool.

You know, I just thought, no worries.

Happy to help.

Awesome. Have a great day.

Yeah. Bye. Bye.