#67 The ins and outs of medical devices with Ian Cooper of Tasman Trolleys and Medical Equipment

Hey, Kia ora shimai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better Podcast. And with me today I have Ian Cooper from Tasman Trolleys and Medical Equipment. Ian, how's it going?

Great, thanks to. And you.

I'm doing really, really well. We were just sort of talking beforehand. I'm getting increasingly despondent as the weather is getting better here in New Zealand and this and the snow and the ski season is contracting, but that's my problem to deal with. And we'll.

You've got to take out golf net.

Oh, I don't know about that. I just don't have the patience for golf. I, I, I, I refer to it as whack because that's typically what happens. I whack it. I'm normally good for one. One hit. I can kind of get it all. The other thing I found with golf is that I've only ever hired clubs and I am 6 foot 4. And mostly the clubs that you're hiring in a golf club are not designed for someone to six foot four. No, I just don't have the patience for the. No, you've got to get your legs this far apart and then bend your. I just want to hit it. I'm more of the happy Gilmour style of life.

Yeah, there's a, there's another approach to golf that you need to look at.

Yeah, I don't think, I don't think it's going to capture me, but nice try. Are you, are you a skier before we get into anything else?

I have done, but not for a while. Fair enough.

We'll let you off. Yeah, we'll let you off.

Great skating. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. We can get into the. Yeah, the machination.

Maybe we should do a ski podcast as a separate thing.

Be corps the ski. It'd be pretty niche. There is one B Corp ski field, Taos, I think it's called Taos. Taos Ski Field in New Mexico.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, so there we go.

That would be interesting.

Yeah.

But anyway, try and find a B Corp golf.

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't. Because there's a couple of B corp ski companies. There's faction skis or a B Corp Picture Clothing. They make the ski clothing. They're a B Corp and Patagonia, I suppose they have ski wear. So there's a little bit of, a little bit of action happening in the ski world, but yeah. I don't know if I say a Golf and me pitch and putt. We took a bunch of clients out To Holy Moly in Auckland. Oh yes, A couple of weeks ago. So for those of you, I think they're in Aussie as well. So if you're listening in Aussie, you might heard of them, the U.S. i don't think they're there, but yeah, it's like an indoor crazy golf with beer and pizza. What could go wrong? That was good fun. So yeah, that's about the limit of my. Limit of my skills. But anyway, beyond golf and not skiing. Yeah. Who are you? And tell us a bit more about what Tasman Trolleys and medical equipments all. All about.

Okay, so a little bit about me. Sort of background history in manufacturing. A lot of international sales and marketing experience in manufacturing. Delved a little bit into into finance world and some other online marketing and came back into manufacturing really around probably the authentic. Looking for authentic products and authentic manufacturing and then through that process got into medical. Came across Tasman Trolleys about four or five years ago. Started working with the owner at that point and opportunity came up to transition from his ownership to our ownership. So we took control of the business about sort of two and a half years ago and have been actively working in it since then. Business has been around for about 65 years. Manufacturing in the, in the same location. We're a small team. So two of the guys, one guy's been here for 50 years. One guy's been for 40 years. Wow.

Get a set of golf clubs on their 40th and 50th anniversary.

No, no, no. They get a park right out the front of the building nicely.

Yeah. So your long history there that is well recognized. So yeah, some nice stuff.

Yeah, this, it's interesting. There's a company we've just recently worked with on their B corp. Similar, similar to what you just described. Like the previous owner was in their 70s, had been running the company for 30, 40 years. Younger blood was working in the company as a general manager. Hey, actually can we look at maybe, you know, this could just be your retirement plan. We could buy, we could buy you out. Shout out to my mate Dietmar in Christchurch who he, he's a big fan of helping people work out that transition from, you know, selling their business and making sure they, they get a good, you know, get a good and fair price for it. It's quite, there's quite a lot of opportunity around at the minute. I mean my mate Dietmar, he always talks about how this is the biggest transfer of wealth, you know, generational wealth as a lot of baby boomers, maybe family run business, maybe the kids don't want to take over the business. Okay, well it's, it's selling stuff, it's got widgets, you know where someone like me, you know, when I hang up my B corp boots in probably however many years time, you know, I doubt my daughter's going to take over the business. And I don't think really other. Outside of law and accounting, not many consulting firms tend to be inherited by the next generation.

No. That's interesting. I think certainly the longevity of the business here and you see what some of the other manufacturing. I think there was a, a publicly listed healthcare company in New Zealand that's just put out their 30 year plan and there's a freight company in New Zealand that's got their 100 year plan. So it is quite interesting as you delve into some of the strategies that some of their businesses employ, what they think of that long term perspective and yeah, so we manufacture in New Plymouth, so in Taranaki, have been manufacturing here say for 65 years. Supply through to hospitals primarily in New Zealand, a little bit offshore but primarily into New Zealand. So we just deal with, deal with medical.

Nice. So yeah, a world that I am intimately familiar with having spent a good 10 or however many years as a medical device rep.

I guess it's interesting because have you been watching that painkillers on Netflix? Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quite different from a New Zealand scenario. And you do start to appreciate the benefits we have in New Zealand of more control over a bit more regulation. The distribution of drugs and other components.

100%. Yeah, all those. So for people outside of New Zealand we have a. I guess it's. Is it government run pharmac? I don't know. It's government run. So basically a big agency that sits and regulates the admission of pharmaceutical products into New Zealand and they then also push back against the companies to agree. Better pricing. Yeah. My wife used to be a pharmaceutical rep and I've got a couple of mates used to be pharmaceutical reps. I used to sell hips and knees and then spinal instruments and implants. So we were never Pharmac historically didn't regulate any of that stuff. So it was a bit of an open season. It was kind of, you know. Yeah, you could get stuff into hospitals and pick a price to a degree. Yeah. It's a wacky world. I don't think most members of the public appreciate. I mean I've just dropped my mum at the hospital today for a day procedure. I think most people walk into the hospital don't realize that pretty Much everything that they see in that hospital has been sold in by a company from the door handles through to the trolleys, through to the medical equipment, the uniforms. You kind of don't think of as a hospital as a, as a customer.

Or as a. Yeah, no, no, no. And the complexity of it and the nature of a hospital dealing with health, you, you don't want to make decisions quickly because you are playing with lives and therefore longevity of product, longevity of, of drugs is an important process in that, in that part. So. And where every time you go into hospital, Every time I go into hospital, particularly now, the focus.

From the public on hospitals and medical, you always appreciate the length and the dedication those people go to in the hospitals. So as we're going through that centralization model in New Zealand, you can see where there's opportunities to improve things and pharmac plays a role in that. And Te Whta ora Health New Zealand likewise.

Because when I was in the medical industry, there was talk about pharmac getting involved across the board with all medical devices. Is that, is that happened or is that still that.

That. That is a slow transition, as you said. There's so much that goes into a hospital trying to control all those components and is difficult and trying to tender and, and have contracts in place for those. So they've got a huge job on, on to deal with that. So one of their goals is to deal with that is to, to have more going through them and under their control. But I guess the, the centralization of Health New Zealand sort of helps some of that as well.

Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to someone on a ski lift the other day about the, the sort of centralization of stuff in the medical world or in the purchasing of medical products. And they were sort of saying, oh, you know, yeah, but we need to have better personal choice and, you know, what fits one person. I was like, well, yes, but equally, I remember back in the day, one of the large medical companies got found out. I think someone, someone moved health boards, someone in the procurement team. So it used to be there were multiple district health boards across New Zealand, which, you know, yes, it's great, you have local control, but also you have probably 40. It was about 10 or 14 health balls.

We had 20.

So there we go.

Yeah, 20. So if you take the south island wasn't too bad because I think you had four or five, the north island particularly bad. So within some areas you had, for example, Wairapa, you had the Wairapa District Health Board. Then you had, you know, capital coast and you had heart, so you had very small regions.

You had almost hospital or like a couple of hospitals and. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

And that's as you say, that localization is, is important but perhaps there's other ways to achieve, achieve that because.

Yeah, I remember. Yeah. One person must have moved, I think it was from.

The Gisborne Area Health Board to the Auckland one. And they, they look how a minute in Gisborne we were paying like four times the price for the same piece of equipment. And so the company were called in and you know, they connected the dots and it's like, please explain. It's like. Yeah, that's a bit awkward really, isn't it? Okay.

Yeah.

So, yeah. And I think the, obviously with the pandemic, I think the good thing is that the public now has a greater appreciation of the need to invest in health both for an infrastructure perspective and also the roles that nurses and other critical workers actually play and what they have to put up with on a day to day basis, which many of us probably would struggle with.

Yeah.

So I think that's certainly. If there's anything good thing to come out of the pandemic, then I guess it's the, it's the, the realization that health and education and other things are really important investments.

Yeah, it's like a little wacky. It's its own wacky micro world that you just don't. Yeah. Like I said, most people you just think, oh, hospital, they're going to fix me. But you don't realize it's actually like almost a small, a small town, a small village.

It is a small town with its.

Own stuff going on.

And then I think the other part that we perhaps don't always understand in New Zealand is access to some of those specialists. If you're remote, you can't always have that particular special specialist in, in your region. You may have to travel with wh and family. And that's just the nature of the beast to get the best, best service. And then the other one out of that is you don't really want to be in hospital. So if they kick you out quickly, it's a good thing.

Yeah.

Where sometimes we perceive that as being a bad thing. Yeah. But yeah, you better, you get better at home than you do in a hospital.

Yeah. There's some good evidence. I was listening to a podcast yesterday or something and they were talking about.

Yeah, like the space that you're in and how that can aid recovery.

Yeah.

And you know, patients who were on a ward that Had a, had a view of a park or green space, typically healed quick more quickly than those who were inside a, you know, brick walls. So yeah, it's amazing how the mind.

Yeah, we've seen quite a bit of research on that and certainly in the biophilic sort of space to make sure you do have that connection. And in fact, you're lucky in the new wards and the new wing at Christchurch, the, The views across Hagley park are amazing. You know, Florida ceiling glass and those sort of things which as you, as you put the. The research suggests that that will speed up your recovery and you'll be out of there faster, which is, which is good for everyone.

Yeah. 100.

Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone wins. Yeah. So so you new to medical, you because you were. You're generally Auckland based, but like you say, the company or have you pretty much relocated now? Down to relocated?

Yes, I made the transition out of Auckland. So yeah, so we're now, rather than commuting back. I was in Auckland Auckland yesterday. So we just go for the, the couple of days as opposed to now. So you can.

You flipped it. Flipped it around.

Flipped it around, yeah, exactly.

So but you grew up in ak, you're in Auckland.

Yeah, grew up in Auckland. Yeah, yeah.

And so. Yeah, and then. So yeah, so talk, talk me through like. Yes, your early career. Like I said, you've done. You've done a few mixed roles, but.

Yeah, I was in. In manufacturing for quite a bit. I did a Bachelor of Management studies at Waikato University. A lot of focus then on international. Worked for a couple of manufacturing companies, had the, the pleasure and the opportunity to travel internationally through those. So that exposed me to a whole lot of stuff as it does. Spent four, four years in, in the States and then made the transition return to New Zealand. Nice.

Whereabouts in the States where you're hanging out?

We were living in la.

Oh, wow.

So yeah, so yeah, different to Auckland, but different from Auckland. Yeah, yeah. When you talk about traffic, you have a different appreciation. So yeah, it's a bit like going from Monmouth to back to Auckland. Yeah. You realize what traffic is 100 and so I then went into financial services for a period of time and then went back to manufacturing. It's always good to try and find. Well, what I was looking for was authentic product, authentic manufacturing. And once you can touch a product and you can see the people who've been making it, it's quite a rewarding process. It certainly helps you to, to sell and market the product more easily.

No, no, you go.

I was gonna say that There's a real connection to. To purpose around that as well. Because I think in the modern world there's a lot, you know, cheap, quick. If it breaks, just buy a new one. Really disconnected value chains where, you know, you go and buy it from a store where the person selling it doesn't really know where it's come from, doesn't really care about it. The people who have made it and distributed it haven't don't ever meet you as the customer. Whereas you go back, I don't know, maybe even a thousand years or probably, maybe even less than that. Go back to before the Industrial Revolution. And I mean, well, Cooper, you'd be the barrel maker for us.

Barrel maker. Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, we gave the name of the function that you did for the. For the village or for the town. It had so much meaning that we. We name ourselves after it. And you'd be making the barrel, you'd have that sense of meaning and craftsmanship in making the barrel. And I come and buy the barrel to put my beer in it or whatever I want to store in it, and I go, wow, that's a really beautiful barrel. And maybe you've engraved my name on it because you're a really nice guy and you've done that for free. And I come home and I have this barrel, and I probably keep that barrel for all my life. And then I hand it down to my kids and their kids, and there's that. There's that history, there's that meeting, there's that connection that we've had, there's the meaning that you've had, whereas now it's just. Let's just churn out as many as we can, and if it breaks tomorrow, great. They're buying another one.

Yeah, yeah. And I think. I think in the last couple of years, we've probably seen, particularly with supply chain sort of slowing stuff down and people understanding a bit more, perhaps a bit more time and the flow of information, people are starting to look at that with a bit more detail. And I guess that was one of the things that we were trying to work out, how, as a small manufacturer, small design manufacturing company, how we could actually validate that externally, which is why, you know, why we ended up down this path. Yeah, I totally. I totally agree with you. And is one of the struggles, certainly in financial services that. That I had was that the. The connection between the service delivery and the. And the product and the person was quite remote, and it was becoming more and more remote.

Yeah.

As you say, even you're Walking down to the, walking down to the bank doesn't happen anymore. And that decision making process sometimes is truncated.

Yeah. Computer says no, done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Or an email. No one responds to those. Yeah. I think there's, there's probably a desire for some of that to come back where it can as those touch points.

That sort of rehumanization of work. I think. Yeah. People.

Yeah.

Are increasingly realizing that, I mean. Yeah. The stats over the last few years just show increasingly less meaning achieved through work. And there's good evidence, I think it's. If you, if you don't have a sense of fulfillment and meaning in work, there's only a 1% chance that you will have overall total life satisfaction. So we kind of think, well, it's okay, I can just go and, you know, self medicate on the weekend by getting boozed or eating out or playing lots of golf to distract myself from the. Yeah, but it doesn't, it won't, you know, it'll always catch up with you by the end of it. So.

Yeah, no, no, it's. So, yeah, so we were looking, we, we, we stumbled across this opportunity. We were a customer of this organization and just, just seemed to align because again, we, we were one of the few people who, who walked into the office and met with the people.

Yeah. So you're like, Mr. Remington, I like the company so much, I bought it.

Yes, yes. Yeah. Not quite like that, but yeah. Yeah. It certainly had a very strong reputation in the industry for longevity and we've always wanted to continue that. So, yeah, it was an exciting prospect. It was a bit of a gem that wasn't a bit, was unpolished, wasn't well known in the local region. Well known in the medical segment that we played in. But within the region, no one really knew we were here. So we're quite keen to go out and tell the story because it is a good story.

Yeah. And plenty of opportunity by the sounds of it.

Yeah, yeah. Tons of opportunity. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, I mean, yeah, manufacturing, I guess it's interesting if you, I don't know, maybe if we, if we polled the old family fortunes, we pulled 100 people walking down the street and said, local manufacturing, would you, you know, is that a, is that a boom industry? Because in, in general you hear quite a lot of tales of, you know, closures and everything's going offshore. Particularly, I guess, you know, there has been a bit of a clothing industry in New Zealand based on the back of the wool industry, local manufacturing, there's, you Know some well known companies that aren't doing that anymore. Yeah. How's that? Yeah, what I mean obviously you, you guys are doing it differently. The company's been doing it differently for a while. But.

Yeah.

What's your sense in general of that localization of manufacturing? Is it coming back?

Yeah, it's a really good question and I think if you'd asked that question four or five years ago, pre pandemic, people would have said no. It's all, you know, globalization is sort of taking over and, and many companies are suffering because of that and there's still, obviously still an element of that. But you've probably seen since post pandemic that we're probably coming back a little bit because the supply chain was certainly, you know, it did hurt a lot of people. And I think people had a bit more time to understand a little bit more about what was going on and why there is a need to support some of those local businesses because if they do fold then you know, there's people, people out on the street. So I think you still have to be the niche component is really important. You have still have to find what you, what you're good at and build upon that. And yes, we compete daily with, with imported product and we're trying to find ways that we can separate ourselves out from the stuff that has been imported and made in other, in other low cost environments. But we can't sit on, sit on that and expect that people will just buy us because of that. You still have to be innovative, you still have to try and do things differently and you have to get that connection at that emotional level with what you do and that's part of telling the story. So yeah, I think there's probably growing signs of that in that niche area.

Investment in automation, investment in some of the technology components probably is something that is needed. Not quite sure if there's an understanding that some of the business organizations levels, whether the support and how they can support that, particularly small organizations. And you know, that's, that's the nature of New Zealand manufacturing and New Zealand businesses. We are all small. So I think there needs to be a better understanding how you can do that. I mean the fact that Tim, you and I have never met.

Yeah. Is a good example of how we use two small businesses have used technology. Now if you've got to try and look at that in other parts of your business, it's relatively straightforward. But we were just talking internally here about some of the technology and some of the machines we've got. But who's going to help us? Who's going to be the Tim who's helping us through, navigate through some of the technology that is out there without paying huge hourly rates for a consultant offshore or something like that. So I think there's really good opportunities. You just have to be perhaps a little bit smarter about it than perhaps we were before. But the pandemic has certainly helped that focus on, on why we need local manufacturing to cut those supply chain lines down from where they were.

That's sort of. Yeah. That supply chain resilience.

Yeah.

And I was talking to someone at a dinner party not so long ago. We don't go to many of those.

Yeah, yeah.

But.

The guy who I was talking to was, he's in the medical device industry. He, he sells divide, you know, screws and plates and stuff. And you know, when I was selling stuff into hospitals, like I say this is a good 10, 10, 12 years ago, I left the industry.

Social and environmental decision making. And where's the product come from? What was not on the radar? Basically, we don't really care. Most of the large, large companies that sell products are US or European based, but almost all of it is manufactured in China. But the, the workarounds seem to be that as long as one part of the process was done in Germany or America, you could then put on the box made in America or made in Switzerland. Yeah.

Designed and designed in California.

Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. So I think literally if the product, if it was kind of like even if it was just assembled in the box in Germany, there was like one, it was like a real big workaround that you could say this is made in Germany, but okay, actually it was manufactured in China and not the.

Made in China is a bad thing.

Totally, totally. Not totally.

We've got to look at that in a positive light because it has helped in so many different ways. And they do have manufacturing capabilities that. And size and scale that we just don't have.

Totally, totally. And there's. Yeah. Jessie Wong from you May. They make beautiful handbags based in Wellington. I've had a couple of conversations with her about her supply chain and she gets very.

What's the word? Fired up, I guess, you know, because, because a lot of their supply chain is in China but they have reintroduced artisan crafts, techniques and skills to a labor force in China so that as you say at scale they can create beautiful crafted products where you're just not going to get that scale and the ability to do that to that locally. So yeah, totally agree it's not all, oh, it's made in Asia, bad, bad, bad.

Equally, the stuff that's made in New Zealand or the US or Europe, absolute crap.

So, yeah, and the processes behind that are equally as bad. So, yeah, I don't think we can look at some of those offshore markets and instantly assume that they're all bad. It has given us opportunities.

But are you finding an increasing interest from people that you're supplying to around the fact that you're locally made and also that, you know, now you're a B corp that you can kind of go, well, actually we, we tick quite a few boxes here. As well as just having, you know, like you say the product's got to be good, but are you finding there's more interest in. In the supply chains that you're dealing with around how it's made and where it's coming from?

There's certainly a lot of interest in and supporting local, depending on your definition of, of local. And assuming your, your hygiene factors are all in place so you can deliver, you got your price right, you got your design right, you've got your delivery right, and all those sor.

There's certainly an interest in supporting local. The validation of what that actually means is quite important and I think that's the part that we were trying to separate ourselves. So it's supporting local and making local and designing local is a bit different from supporting local from someone who's importing. So the B corp side, I don't know if there's a huge understanding of what it is, but that's part for us to tell our story and enables us to provide a vehicle to do that. So for those people we have, absolutely, there's a good involvement in it and it helps us to align with them and it does help us to, when we're up against a competitor, is to try and highlight the factors that help us achieve this. So, yeah, there's certainly a stronger understanding for that. And certainly overseas, as we start to sort of play in some of those areas, we know we will have to deal with some of those issues. So part of it, with doing it was preparation for what we think is going to come down the line and.

Looking at a range of different options we could have. This just seemed to be the most logical one for the business and for where we sit and what we wanted to achieve.

Nice.

Yeah, Like I say, talking to this guy, he was talking about, you know, hospital procurement, wanting to know the carbon footprint of a widget that's being sold in and, you know, they want to know about the packaging and is it recyclable and have you. I think. Did I connected you. I've connected you with Ollie from Med South.

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. So they're one of the ones that we've been loosely in contact with. Yeah, cool. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think we're interviewing Ollie in a couple of weeks. Okay. So watch this space if you're interested in medical device B Corps, because there's another one coming up. We're going really niche on the podcast.

Yeah, well, I think we. They're the first medical in New Zealand and we're the second.

I can't remember now who came through first.

They just beat us by one month, so that's okay. Yeah, we were. But, well, we're only the third in the Taranaki region, so that's.

So you got that?

Yeah, we got that. And we, we're manufacturers as opposed to. They're not manufacturing. So, you know, there's differences in that. But yeah, you're right, there is that understanding. I think that's having a structure by which you can go through and unpick some of that with your own suppliers. In fact, we were just, we had a supplier in here the other day just talking about Ty Point and aluminium, which is a large component of what we put into our product, aluminium. And just looking at the comparisons between Ty Point and some of the other aluminium that comes was manufactured overseas. So having a means of validating that is really, really important.

Nice. So would you say you've, you know, you've always had a purpose, you know, bent on life? Like, have you always been a purpose driven type person or did.

Did you feel connected? No, not really. I mean, I've gone. Yeah, it's, it's. I think particularly with the small business trying to find there were things that they were doing prior to us arriving that, you know, your standard connection with your local community that perhaps weren't being recognized other than perhaps a certificate in the mail and those sort of things and working with other or the way they worked with their workers.

So, no, I don't think I could honestly say, hand on heart, that that was my bent. As you go through some of the other certification processes, you start to see the positive and negative of some of those. Some of them are product based, doesn't really allow for modularity. Some of them are manufacturing based, but may be reasonably cost prohibitive in terms of how they do things. So no, I don't think that. I think probably like a lot of people in the last five to ten years. It's probably. Anna, as you, as you age you start to have a greater understanding of those sort of things.

Yep.

And you know, one of the good things about having people who have been here for 40 or 50 years is you start to understand some of the, the decisions that have been made prior to us, us coming on board. And I think that's, yeah, there's certainly a great appreciation of that as you start to unpack that. So no, I, I think it's something that has developed as you go through your career as you start to see. Yep, it's great that I can buy this for a dollar. But where is it actually coming from? Yeah, which Perhaps when you're 25 is slightly different from when you, when you're slightly older than 25.

So I think those, and I say the, that, that sort of stop in the, in everyone's life, you know, two or three years ago really gave people a chance to, to take that breath and to really understand, well, you know, is this what I want? Is this how it should be?

Yeah, I agree. I think that's had a massive, you know, the B corp movement has just accelerated in the last two to three years and I think the pandemic was a big moment where a lot of people like you say, I mean other than those of us who were part time primary school teachers trying to parent and my wife and I were both, you know, both self employed so we're both trying to keep businesses going. When most clients that I had lined up basically said, well, we don't know if we're going to be here in November so can we just call it all off for now? Sure, yeah, no problems.

Great, yeah, I'll call you in November.

Yeah, if I'm still here.

Yeah, exactly.

But other than those trials and tribulations and we were just in the middle of building a house as well, that was fun. So other than all of that, I think, yeah, we all kind of collectively walked our dogs to within an inch of their lives and realized that, oh, it actually is quite peaceful, it's quite quiet, I can hear the birds, there's no noise pollution, it's nice and green. I'm having, you know, some time to just. And I think a lot of business leaders, I think, and the other thing I sort of pose the question semi regularly in workshops and talks I give is, you know, if your business wasn't deemed essential during the lockdown, well, why are you here? If you're not essential to human existence.

You'Re kind of on the, on the edges really then, aren't you? You're taking up a bit of space, taking up a bit of oxygen. So, you know, how do you, how do you make your not. And I think this is the marketing conundrum of, you know, wants versus needs. Well, yeah, this is essential. You know, there's lots of things that are. Like the phone. It's essential. Well, is it coffee? I mean, yeah, coffee. Is it essential? Like, we've gone thousands of years without this stuff. It's been made to be. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of those kind of conversations that have been happening.

Yeah. And I think, yeah, you're right. And I think also because we were obviously an essential, we were supplying to hospitals and some of the challenges you had with your suppliers to, to validate that you were essential and, and that they were important part of your, your process, so they had to, they had to pick up the slack. In fact, I was talking to someone the other, other week about, about B Corp and just talking about the different approaches that some suppliers took during that.

That period. Some just went, no. Our lead times have gone from three or four weeks in one case out to nine months in another, where another organisation said, no, no, we'll prioritise all our components for healthcare, even though we supply education and other components, because we know healthcare is essential. So it's getting that alignment with your suppliers as well to make sure that you can move forward when you have those sort of periods of, of stress. Yeah. So, yeah, there was all of you on what essential is and how you can essentially provide to us.

Yeah, yeah. But I think, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it sounds like you were developing some stronger supply chain relationships through those conversations to help people understand, like, hey, look, we're not just making a widget here that, you know, it's like, actually we are supporting the healthcare system, so could you.

Yeah.

And was there a change in. Because that's one of my arguments, which is unconfirmed. I'm looking at working with a consulting firm to get a report or a study or white paper done on this, because my theory is that if you put B Corp in the middle, you get better employee engagement because employees go, wow, this company's really cool. It's doing more than just trying to make money. It's got a social purpose or an environmental impact at its heart. Your customers kind of go, wow, like, you're a really cool company. You're looking after your customer, you know, looking after us. You're looking after your employees. You've Got, you're managing, manage, measuring and reporting your impacts holistically. If you've got any investors, increasingly, they are all wanting to know, hey, you know, if we're going to lend you money, you know, the retail banks are now looking at the investments that they've got and going, hey, you know, Ian, your carbon emissions are a bit too big, so before we lend you any more money, we need to have a chat about your carbon emissions. So that's happening and then, yeah, with your supply chain. My theory is if all of your main stakeholders can see the good that you do and the benefit that you're providing, that you have better relationships, which is why B Corps are typically more resilient in large economic times of disruption. So post GFC and post pandemic, B Corps outperformed business as usual in terms of their resiliency. And so, yeah, do you feel like you've got a better connection now with your supply chain and customers because you've been able to articulate, you know, we need you. And this is why we're not, like I said, we're not just flipping widgets here. We're actually doing something of importance.

Yeah. I think again, it provided us a structure by which we could tell a story and they could understand what we're trying to do. So the, the ethos that we've had here is that when our suppliers come into, into our site that they should be excited, they should be welcomed. They're an important part of the component. We have to explain to them what we do and why. The part that they provide is really important to that. And, and B Corp provides that structure that we can do. Perhaps previously that wasn't done to the detail. We would Tasman Trolleys not really understanding where the product ends up from a supplier perspective. So certainly going out to people and saying that we have been certified has enabled us to build that story more and more and, and understand internally that the supplier component is such a critical part of what we do and if we get that wrong, we, we've seen what happens when it goes wrong. During the pandemic, there was certainly some suppliers who didn't understand what we do and didn't understand the role that we played in the, in the medical industry.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think it's give again. It gives you just something that, that people can refer back to. It gives us structure that we can then go and tell our story and someone else has validated what, what we're saying and that's, that's a core, core component rather than Just going, well, hey, look at us. We're great, we're amazing.

Trust us.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, we're a small company, but you should pay us a lot of attention because, you know, in say in hospitals and particularly from a customer perspective, there's, there's always a lot of pressure that they're facing on a day to day basis and we can't occupy too much of their time. From a supplier's perspective, unless they do a detailed analysis of all what their customers are doing, then they typically can sort of forget the role that you play.

Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. I think on a personal level as well as on a business level, I think we tend to overinflate the amount of that we think other people are thinking about us. When.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. I did some training with Meridian Energy. This was a few years ago now, this particular event, and their CFO came in the room to give a bit of a state of the nation before the training kicked off. And I thought this, this was a really genius.

Piece of information that he gave to their sales team was the average consumer spends 15 seconds a year thinking about their power bill. Meanwhile, for you as the sales team, all you're thinking about is your customers and their power bill.

Yeah.

And so you, you turn up and you're trying to have a conversation because they were going through a period of maybe having to increase their, their, you know, what people were going to pay them for their commercial sales. And it was just such a great framing to go, you're sitting here sweating over this because you're looking at them as all day long, but your customer actually doesn't give a. About until, until you turn up and go, hey, we need to have chat.

Bill's gonna increase. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, it's always good to reflect that. Yeah. Despite what we tell ourselves, actually most people aren't thinking about you the whole day, so.

No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

But it's important and I think from a supplier that you do have those conversations to bring yourself back into the conversation and go, look, you don't expect your suppliers to be thinking of you all day, every day, but it's like, hey, when you do think about us, we want you to think about us in this way and, and know that this is what we want to be talking to you about. Yeah.

And I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's also the, the impression you leave when they come on site. So if they have. We had someone who walked in here the other day and it was a connection to a local community. He walked in here and had a discussion with us. We, we thought we were friendly to him, but we got an email back from him sort of within an hour saying, wow, that was amazing. Really welcoming reception, love what you guys do. And, and it was just that sort of aha moment when you go, everyone you're interacting with. And he came because he saw us with B Corp. Everyone you're interacting with, you've got to leave that positive impression and make. Try and help make their day a delight as well. So we try and do that.

What a crazy idea.

Yeah. It's just, you know, rather than the truck driver or the courier driver going, oh, God, I've got to go there again, because they're really painful, is make them look forward. Oh, great, I'm going there. Fantastic. They're always nice and polite to me. I feel good. When I leave the building, those sort of things become quite important and you've just got to build that. I know, it depends on your culture. Yeah, build that into it.

100. Yeah. I mean.

It'S just. Yeah, it's something that I'm really passionate about. It's just, it's just trying to be an overwhelming force of positivity in people's lives. So that.

Absolutely.

When you, when you walk away from the conversation, at best you've had a bit of banter and they've had, they've maybe smiled and had a bit of a laugh.

Yeah, it's like. Yeah. And look, I really. One of the, One of the. When we sent out the email around B Corp to our customers and suppliers and that sort of stuff, I distinctly remember the email I got back from you or the email that you sent through, which was quite humorous, which was your face, a rather large image of your face.

You get a B Corp badge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just. Yeah, cool, thanks. You know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a nice response to something that, you know, you slog over for these sort of things and while a lot of people don't always understand what you have to do, you know, there's just some local recognition that we've had more people in the last three or four weeks since we've been certified come in and sort of talk about that and it's great to have that conversation. So, yeah, that positivity, I think, is a really important part. And if you have that, if you frame that around your community, your workers, what you're doing from a business perspective, rather than Just here. We're here to make as much money as we can today. It leaves a really different impression.

Yeah, totally.

What is it? The one those classic 60s Second World War movies, Bridge Too Far, when Sean Connery is one of the parachute regiment commanders and they've been dropped in and he gets his junior officers come up to him. So I know. Yes, sir. The vehicles have all been dropped over here and, you know, they've been destroyed and the radios aren't working and you know, we're surrounded by this SS German Panzer division. You know, it's all looking pretty, pretty grim. And his batman goes, cup of tea, sir? And he sort of goes, you know, all this bad stuff's happening. Do you really think that's going to help? I guess they can't harm, can it? That's such a good. Hey, look, you're having a bit of a bad day. Cup of tea. It can't make it any worse, can it? You know, it's probably going to make you feel it. So I think, yeah, that's just the mindset and attitude of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's. You've got to keep on reminding yourself and how much there's so many things that you could bring. Bring you down on a daily basis. Yeah. But certainly having people walking in here and say that was a delight to come is very rewarding.

Nice. Fantastic. We were trying to remember how we connected. We can't remember even though it's only a year or so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12, 18 months. Yes, yes.

But we did, but what, what. When did B Corp. Pop up on your radar and how did it pop on your radar?

Popped up on my radar about three or four years ago when I started to see.

Started to see it being used around the place and then started to understand, try and delve into a bit more in, in the organizations that would be Corp certified. What did they have that in other organizations? So, yeah, probably about three or four years ago started to pop up and. And then when we came on board here, it was trying to find something that we could sort of, you know, build a structure around that would certify what we've been doing. And the guys before us have been doing so well. So, yeah, probably three or four years ago.

It came up nice. And then. So what was the decision point where you're like, okay, enough looking around, we're gonna, we're gonna do this thing. Let's try and. And then you find this crazy bloke, Tim.

Yeah. What was the decision point? I think when we Sat down at the beginning and as we do every try and every year, sit down at the beginning of year and try and say well, what can we use to validate what we're doing in various different components? And, and that's where we sort of worked out. The B Corp probably best represented what we wanted to achieve and a closer alignment to that than some of the other things. So you know, there were various discussions around ISO and other components that we could go down, but we didn't really feel that they, they touched on this, the holistic component. And I like how they. B Corp had deals with the social, the workers, the governance, all those sort of things. So that was the part where we said yeah, this, this is something that we should look at more closely. And, and then you look at some of the organizations that have gone through the process and you. Okay, yeah, well they're aspirational brands that yeah, we would, there's elements of, of their business that we'd like to incorporate into. Into ours. So yeah, it was, I don't think it was a hard decision when we started to break it down. It's. Yeah. For a small organization again is how can we be recognized from that social perspective, the community perspective. And we weren't doing a lot, but we were doing some stuff and having some structure around that and we were doing stuff in the worker space and have some, some structure around that rather than having a, you know, an HR component to it. So yeah, I don't know if it was a long discussion internally. Just that was. Yep, that seems to be the, the, the right.

Gives us the right feelings.

Yeah, very cool.

And the good thing about, you know, you know, when we started through that process is it then gave us the ability because, you know, an organization that's been around for 65 years, there's a lot of processes that are inbuilt into a cultural component. And having gone through some of, you know, two or three organizations where you have ISO, you often see that ISO processes is, comes on board, it then goes up into a shelf and then comes out when you go through your annual.

Review. And then. So I've never been comfortable with those sort of things because unless it's ingrained in the organization, it's really not. Yeah, it's very hard to, to support what's going on. It becomes a real effort. So I wanted something that was. Or we wanted something that was built into the organization and we could pick up on the good things that we have done previously and just build some processes around that and document some of.

That nice classic B Corp journey. In many ways, we're doing a bunch of good stuff. We don't really have it written down anywhere. Let's go write it down. The ISO thing is, is an interesting one as well.

It's, it's every now and then, you know, giving a talk, whatever people say, oh yeah, but what about ISO? How does it compare? And I think you just summarized it really, really well. It's like, yep, you put it all on a bit of paper and it goes on a shelf. Whereas B Corp. The key to successfully integrating B Corp is to make the stuff that you're looking at and looking to implement. You make it part of the day to day and you make sure that someone owns it the other.

And I think, look, ISO has its pattern. Yeah. And I think if you, if we went down that path, it's a case of doing. It's building those processes around what you do. So you, so you're not trying to just not fudge it, but the processes actually work in the business. And as you say, I mean with this great stuff that's been going on here for 65 years, it just wasn't always documented and wasn't always supported. So it was just, it was, wasn't too difficult from that perspective.

Yeah. And the other thing I always say as well. So I mean, just looking at, so I saw on LinkedIn earlier today, Luckertain Group, the big global cosmetics company, is now a B corp. And just looking at the, the posts on LinkedIn and all their employees, like, oh, we're so excited. We can't believe, you know, we're a B corp. We're so show me the posts saying, oh, we're ISO certified. It's so happy. It's like.

Quality guys are probably.

I mean.

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, yeah. And I think that's the other recorps captured the hearts and minds of people. Whereas. Yeah, ISO and others, you know. Yeah, just as rigorous but, but different.

Yeah, yeah. And to say ISO certainly has its part certainly in the medical component, the environmental component, to deal with very specific things, perhaps. And certainly from a small business perspective, we just, we needed something that looked at more prongs of that wheel than just one or two elements.

100%. So you mentioned there was a couple of companies that you. Yeah. Were sort of aspirational. You thought, wow, you know, we can be in the same. So which, which are the ones that, yeah. Get you fired up or the ones that you're kind of like, okay, if we could have a little bit of what they do?

Well, I think, I look at, I look at there's a coffee man of a coffee. Coffee bean producer in New Plymouth. So Ozone Coffee.

Yep.

And you look at what they've done based out of New Plymouth. So something we can relate to and where they go and, and the brand impression they leave with you is very, very positive. I look at those ones, I go, wow, that's quite cool. That's quite neat. And the fact that we can relate back to it in this region, it makes it even easier. So I look at sort of those ones. It's interesting as you, once you get further into the B corp, you start looking at more and more brands and start saying okay, so Kathmandu and those sort of ones you go, okay, yeah, kind of. I can see where that fits the social. You knew that from the founding, the founder of Kathmandu. So they're probably some of the brands that sort of spring to mind. I was surprised in the health care industry. There wasn't much going on.

I think to me partly on the back of watching painkillers. It doesn't surprise me. And having spent so many years in the, you know, like I say in the device world that I come from, where it's really competitive, not that I'm saying what you're doing is not competitive competitive, but the, the, the when it comes to selling directly to the surgeons and there's a bit of ego involved and there's lots of money floating around. Actually my experience was that the medical device industry is the least ethical, least patient outcome. You know, in terms of like, you know, it's pretty clear cut. We've got an industry that should just be fixing people like that. The, it's a clear objective that someone comes into this system and they come out better than they came in. The whole system in general actually just cares about maximizing profit.

Companies. And I think that's reflected in the fact that there's only a handful of medical companies that are B corp. It's yeah, you know, unlike you look at like the cosmetics industry or health and beauty or food and beverage awash with B corpse. It's now almost if you're not a B corp and you're in the cosmetics or health and beauty or food and beverage, it's kind of like really you guys. But in medical it's like, oh, you guys are a beagle. Which to me I think is. Yeah, you're right the other way around.

There was another one that we, we loosely start, we did look at which was linked into patient safety, which is a us Patient safety movement.

Yep.

And that was very much looking at some of the issues that occur in hospitals and how you can avoid those. So that very specific health care and slightly different in the US because obviously it's an insurance based.

But that's something that, you know, we, we could see that we could advocate for some of those things in patient safety which is quite frightening when you start to unpick it as you know, from a device perspective and you know.

What a crazy idea, Ian, what a crazy idea. You want to be involved in the medical device industry and you care about patient safety. It'll never tell you exactly.

Well, you're covered by it in New Zealand, covered by acc, so you know, who cares what happens really sometimes and, and that was.

So one of the biggest medical device recalls was from a company called Johnson and Johnson with their ASR hip implant. The world's at the time it was the world's biggest medical device recall. Class action suits all over the world in New Zealand their response was you got ACC deal with it. Yeah, it's like, yeah, whoa, whoa, hang on a minute. So you're going to put all of that cost on the healthcare system because you created a product that failed. Nice, nice one. Yeah. So yeah, don't get me started on that. There's a whole. So I think there's a monologue podcast I should do about the medical device industry.

I feel. Well, there's a couple of good. There's some really, really interesting books about, about that particularly us based ones about how the selling of medical devices and medical drugs and is yeah. Fraught with danger. So we were trying to look at some of that, some of those sort of things. Again we're a small business so it's, it's. How much time can you spend on these things if it doesn't become part of your natural business process? So yeah, so but to the aspirational brand, certainly looking at someone local who had done it and had done it several, many years ago, I think there's six or seven plus years. Well yeah, I thought wow, that's, that's quite aspirational.

And, and seen it in other places as well. So I thought that was quite, quite cool. And then there was a furniture, there's a furniture company in Wellington have done the same thing as well. So.

Right, so that's manufacturer is that NoHo, is it?

No. Ho. Yeah. So that manufacturing component which, which is interesting as, as well I'm keen to, keen to see how that works out for us a bit more.

Yeah, I think that's Right. I think when. If you can see someone like you who's done it. Oh, okay. It's maybe not as unachievable as perhaps I was told or as I thought so. And I think don't underestimate the. The power that you will have now because we've just so shout out to Duncan from Black Pine Architecture, a very recent B Corp. He is the first B Corp to certify in Whanganui, which is sort of Lower North Island.

And I think you are very similar in Taranaki, like, you know, a small community of B Corps, but there's. There's a community there now you've got a group of you. And I don't, you know, don't underestimate the power that the three of you now have in your ability to start influencing a local economy and having conversations and more people will pick up. And for me, that's how the B Corp movement is always going to grow, is by us having the best party on the street and people wanted to come and play at this party rather than the other party. And it's like Ian's a really happy guy and everyone loves going to their warehouse and meeting them and they're just really nice to people. I want to be a part of that.

Yeah.

Or someone will hopefully listen to this or see you and go, well, like, if Ian can do it, maybe I can do it. So, yeah, it's a really cool sort of ripple effect of impact that you're having. There's also. I should remember, there's Med Enterprises as well, who've recently certified as a people.

Yes, I did see that. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think we beat them. I think they're the third.

Yes. There you go. Not. Not that it's about competition.

Not at all.

Big fan of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's funny. I think he's had to try to find that unique story that you can. You can. You can build upon and helping you to tell your story. Yeah, I think that's. That's quite cool.

Nice. So, highlights of the B Corp journey.

Getting your. Getting your email was certainly a highlight. I thought that was quite cool. The highlights.

Paying the invoice. So we got the. Actually got the certification was. Was quite.

That's quite a highlight.

I think when I got to the stage that we were. When we went through the. They were validating and checking on us. I. That was. Yeah. And we were. We were missing a few points in certain areas. When we. When we delved into it further and started to talk further about what we're doing and some of the process that we had, getting to that, that level that we required, the points that we required, that was a, that was a highlight to actually think, okay, we, we're here because you go into this thing, you know, with your help, we knew we had points, but when they start checking, you go, okay, well, we need to clarify this bit further and so we'll peg you back down. So the worst, I thought we could, if we, if we didn't get it, that there was a huge benefit in going through the process just to understand where we were and to build a whole lot of processes around that that will validate a lot of processes that we had.

Yeah.

So I think the highlight certainly was to think, oh my gosh, we're, we're there. Yeah, actually we're over it, you know, and you think, oh, I've jumped off this phone call or this zoom call with someone in Germany to validate the numbers. And it's like, wow, okay, I think we're there.

Nice.

Which was huge. So, you know, I drove it internally and then, and then starting to put some of the stuff around when you actually can start talking about it and to have, you know, say we had a social group that is coming through to do a tour next week and the only reason they knew about us, and they're a bunch of 65 plus retirees in the region and the only reason they heard about us was because of what happened with B Corp. Wow. So it's like, wow, that's cool. You know, that's, that's really good that they've been here. We've been here for 65 years. Some of these guys are 70 plus. Yeah. And they knew we existed and got a great story to tell and, you know, we're going to have a morning tea with them, talk them, take them through the factory and those things that they're really cool.

Yeah.

And then to be called up by another organization in the region and said, can we come and talk to you about it? We see that you've got it. We'd like to understand more about the process. Well, okay, there's a little bit of attention. That's quite cool as well. So, yeah, I think there were, there are a number of moments along that when you think, yeah, this is, this is quite nice.

Nice. Super cool. And anything unexpected that sort of either during the journey or something that you're kind of like, okay, yeah, didn't, didn't really expect that to be a thing going through this, but it is.

No, I think the, probably the unexpected stuff was actually how much we had that we just didn't know we had.

Yep.

And we had done it as either had been done beforehand or new stuff that we brought in when we joined. So I think it was. Yeah. How much we actually had in place. And you know, one of the.

One.

Of the documents we write wrote to, to clarify our position on a couple of things, being able to refer people to that was really quite cool. So we all get the phone calls from people about can you sponsor the local Christmas thing and that sort of stuff. To actually be able to go back to them and say, well, have you gone to the website and actually understood about our charitable policy? And have you read that? And as soon as you say, well go and read that and then give me a call back and you never hear back from them. So to have that real alignment between what, what we wanted to do, it's out there publicly so people can access it. That's quite cool. Then even going through to the recycling component. So just breaking down internally linking our. We have a bonus scheme linking recyclability for the workers, which also helps from an environmental perspective. But getting by into that to see them actually going, yeah, we had that in place before we started B Corp. But to validate that through B Corp was that's, that's quite cool. So I don't think there, there were any pain points through that. I think the big surprise that we probably had more than we thought we had, it was relatively pain free, having gone through other ones, similar sort of veins, which can be quite, quite a painful process. And you kind of feel that you're documenting things that aren't really part of your business.

Yep. Yeah.

And this, this felt natural. It felt a good fit.

Nice. Yeah. It's, it's not uncommon that people will be surprised as to how much good they're already doing. And I think, I'd say the vast majority of companies we're helping with their B Corp journey, they kind of go, oh, I didn't realize that that was special or different or worthy of, you know, recognition. I think there's possibly an element of that. I think Kiwis in general, you know, we, we, we're pretty humble. We like to be involved, we like to give back. We like to try and do as much good as we can in general.

Yeah, it just, but it just seems to be, yeah, most people are kind of like, oh, actually, yeah, we're, we're pretty good. Which is nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But having that structure around Again, talking to a company last, earlier this week about the same thing about, you know, donations and those sort of things. It depended on what day, whether you got the guy in the right mood, whether they actually do a. Have a donation. Yes, they had some structure around it, but you could sort of get around that by, by a phone call. It's just really, it's really good to be able to have that. And then people go, ah, okay, you're connected to Health. Our donations are all tied into Health. We've, we've identified the organizations, we've identified some processes on that. It's like, okay, cool. They've given it some thought so we don't get those sort of random calls. Can you sponsor this Christmas party anymore?

Yeah, nice.

Gone off that list which is quite cool, quite rewarding.

They should be reading Ozone Coffee anyway. Surely for the Christmas food list.

Well, not for 5 or 10 year olds, I don't know.

Who knows. Yeah, yeah. Oh, very cool.

I think that was, yeah, that was like, like you said, a lot of organizations don't have that confidence that what they're doing is actually the right things.

Yeah. And so what, what does now you are a B Corp. Congratulations. Yes. What does being a B Corp mean to you guys now as an organization?

It means a platform to, to develop. It means a structure that we've got to, to build upon and gives us some processes to do that. So I, I think it's just a starting point and certainly from where our score is we know we've got to head north of that and grow that and we've now we have a very clear structure to do it. So I think they're probably the, the big parts. It's, it's just keep on doing what we're doing and keep on incremental improvements. Not this wham, bam, we know we've improved. Let's just keep on going. And I just say, I keep on saying that you come back to that the various different elements that you've got going on. So let's check off the community, let's check off the workers. It just really helps drive some of those things. And we put some of the stuff. Before we even were B Corp approved, we applied for a local business award and we used some of the stuff that B Corp had helped us through and documentation as part of our matrix for applying for the award. So that really helped in that process. So it's just incremental improvements and keep on going. So now it's built into the organisation. I don't see that being as too much of a challenge. It's just going back and checking. Yeah.

And I think. Yeah, again, bang on. You know, use the assessment to. To integrate it into your business. It then becomes business as usual, but then keep looking at it for that continual improvement. Which is.

Yeah, yeah, that. That assessment tool, that online assessment tool is just so cool. It's so easy. It's just the ability to go in there and double check and having templates and clarify and put in an answer and having someone respond to it. It's just like this is way different than dealing with. Yeah. Other. Other processes that I've been through, which is wrap everything up, put it in there and send it off and hope like hell that you're gonna get through. Yeah, exactly. You know, and I, I just, I. I find that. That part really, really quite good. And then. And then once you've achieved the certification is. Is the. The marketing material they have there. We've taken some of those, put on our website, put stuff in, banners and that sort of stuff. So I, I think they've done a great job from that side as well.

Nice. Super. Super cool. So what does the future hold then, for Tasman trolleys and medical equipment? It seems like the world is your lobster.

It's.

It's all happening. Yeah. What's. What's on the.

I think. I mean, it's. I've been in many businesses before. When you start to look at those, those massive growth aspirations, it's incremental change and small. That Kaizen.

Continuous improvement that we're trying to do and with the challenges of being a small manufacturer with historically not a huge amount of investment in new technology, so it's taking on all those sort of things. So it's just incremental. Let's just keep on improving every day. And whether that's just the way that we greet people at the front door and they get excited. If we can win a supplier of a person over like that, then that's great. It makes. They've got a bit. They've had a great day. Fantastic. That's what you like. So incremental sounds really boring.

I know, but that's what's the only way to do it really, isn't it? Otherwise, yeah, we've got up on ourself and.

Yeah, we've got up on that whiteboard in, in our main office, we've got the various different categories that, you know, the community, the workers. And so it's just coming back to those things and annually just checking off.

Yep.

What are we doing in this area, we don't need a radical.

Change from an HR perspective, but we do always need to go back and look at it and are we doing the right thing and what can we improve upon? So it's just the incremental change. Really boring. I'm sorry. You know, as a golfer or as a seer, then it's just, you know, getting those lines right as you go down. Yeah, that's. That's. You're looking for the perfect run, aren't you?

100. Yeah.

Yeah. And. And as a golfer, always looking for those perfect 18 holes and that's. It's just the small bits that you can change and not the. Not the radical. Let's get a new driver or those new skis behind you are going to improve your running.

No, no, I'm. The new skis I'm trying to negotiate with my wife will definitely make me go faster.

Of course, that's the goal, isn't it?

Always got. Yeah. And I did demo some nice ones the other week and I did go quite a lot faster. So I'm like. Yeah, I'm still working on that one. Still working. Luckily, I'm pretty confident the wife doesn't listen to any of these podcasts, so I think.

Thanks. Yeah, we'll find out.

No, I think it. And, and, you know, you. You come back to some of those things. It's just that, that small, small tweaking that you can do and that, that, that Japanese manufacturing process, Kaizen, is just. You just take that to heart.

Yeah, fantastic. Well, it's been really great to get to know you a bit more. I feel. I really. I've got a good mate of mine, Adam, in Talanaki as well. Adam Harris. If you haven't connected with him, you should go. I'll connect you guys up because he's a. He's a. He's a good, good bloke too. I feel like I need to come up and test some of this. I should mystery shop you when you're not there. One day I'll come and mystery shop and see how good your hospitality actually is. And I mean, in all seriousness, we should make. We should try and get something going because as you guys, there's Ozone and there's International Volunteer hq. We've also got another client who we're working with on B Corp in the Taranaki region. So maybe we try and get a little event going and. And we come and say hi and. Yeah, we help spread the word about.

Yeah, I think part of the. How I connected with you is also through venture Taranaki. So they were very helpful in that whole process and understanding, supportive of that. So that was really, really quite helpful. So, yeah, they probably need some more understanding of what. What. Yeah, what actually goes on.

We can make that happen.

Do you have a great weekend? Are you golfing on the weekend?

No. Bit of rugby and renovation, so.

Of course, yeah, Rugby World cup is about to kick off.

Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah, it's all on. It's all on.

Yeah.

I'm hoping to go for a ski on Sunday, but the weather's not looking good for it, so good luck.

Got to try those new skis.

Yeah, man bodies. Go get them first.

Catch you soon.

Thanks very much.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.