#8 Danny Pritchard's Soul Searching Purpose Journey

Foreign.

And welcome to In Pursuit of Purpose with me, your host, Tim Jones, the grow good guy.

Hey, welcome back to the podcast or if you are joining me for the first time listening in Kia Ora. And welcome. And yeah, this week I have a chat with Danny Pritchard, who is the founder of Duffel and Company, one of New Zealand's original B corporations. He's also involved in a couple of other impact organizations. Yeah, and we unpack quite a few interesting parts of his journey, his journey to purpose, where we delve into some of the, I guess, reflection points, how isolation was important to him on that journey and a little bit of the growth and personal work he's had to put in. And yeah, towards the end we get into some interesting conversations on what the future of business is going to have to look like for us to all be able to do what we want to do, I guess on a future planet that's going to be having less resources. So yeah, be really great to get your feedback. So as usual, sit back, relax, get a cup of your favorite tipple and yeah, crack on with it. Catch you soon.

Hey Kyoto and welcome. And so yeah, with me on the podcast now we have Danny Pritchard. So Danny, who are you? What do you do? What are you doing on this podcast?

Hi. No, no, good, good question. I'm Danny Pritchard and I have a couple of little purpose driven businesses going on. Purpose for me is a very, very interesting word that isn't really spoken about too much. Tim and I were talking earlier about this and people sort of run away when you bring up the topic. But it's so, so important and hopefully we can talk about why. But I currently have one business which you may have heard of called Duffel and Company. We basically challenge the status quo by using business to instigate positive social and environmental change. And making beautiful bags is just the main way how we sort of do that. So we support talented craftsmen and barley, empower local communities, plant trees to restore biodiversity and sort of offset our carbon emissions and so on. And another sort of social enterprise that I've recently started working on that I'm really excited about is called Bring on Monday. It actually started.

By having coffee meetups on the first Monday of every month at 7am in the morning. You can imagine how many people showed up.

After a while it actually got going and it did filter out those who probably weren't that interested. But we sort of got all these social enterprises together and figured out, okay, what are they struggling with? And one of the main Things that kept coming up is profit. So it was built on the basis of that because we believe the bigger the profit you can make, like obviously the greater the impact and so on. And we see these social enterprises that kind of are doing. They have such cool ideas, some of the tech businesses and stuff like that, and they kind of just go off the radar and at the end of the day it's the manager, sorry the co founders or whatnot, who can't pay themselves and they can't rent and so they're giving, giving, giving, but can't support themselves. So that's why I started the second business, Bring on Monday. So we basically handle all things bookkeeping, finance, accounting related, add in some coaching there and stuff like that. But all for kind of a fraction of the price of a traditional accountant just because they do tend to be a little bit more expensive. So kind of, yeah, having that accountancy side of things, but also the bookkeeping, the admin, but you know, helping with budgets, that support and that coaching as well, just to make sure that these businesses do succeed.

Very cool. And on Wednesdays you do something else. Sounds like, you know, you got your week pretty full there.

Yeah, yeah.

Just casually trying to, you know, save the world through two businesses as you do.

Yeah, it's. Well, I'm lucky with Duffel and Co. We've been going for four years now and I've got such an amazing team where I can just trust them to do everything. To be honest, I don't actually do much. It's. It's all the team. But going on Monday is what I'm working on, you know, building at the moment. And one thing that I'm really, really passionate about because I, I guess we'll get into B Corp later but just I think that purpose driven businesses are the future and they need to be able to survive and, and do well and profit.

What a crazy idea. Purpose driven business is the future. You heard it here first.

There's quite a lot, loads of stuff to unpack there. There's definitely. I want to, I want to go down the social enterprise route a little bit, which is what I did with a recent guest and Hannah and definitely on the profit versus impact scale. And there's some, definitely some cool things I can pick up there from some time I spent at Kilmarnock. But before we delve into there, let's sort of delve into Danny a little bit more. And how did you like, why Duffel and company as like your first foray into business for good or purpose driven Business or social enterprise? Like where did that come from? What was the thoughts behind that?

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And to be honest, I went through university. I did have this little business at university called Dream Band. It was basically a student loyalty program and allowed students to get $3 beers. We weren't going to too many details there. And that actually went really well. And I started getting into self development, all the different books and I was kind of convinced that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. So uni, all my friends kind of went into the corporate world and I kind of battled away trying to come up with business ideas and ended up doing a door to door sales role which was character building stuff. So yeah, selling energy, knocking on doors. But I'm so glad that I did it because, you know, you build resilience and persistence just a little bit.

I think if anyone can survive door to door selling, you can survive life. As simple as that.

We'll find out over the next few weeks.

Okay, yeah. Caveat. Not sure. It actually prevents COVID 19 infection, but other than that I'd say it's pretty character. Yes.

Yeah, exactly. We won't go down that rabbit hole. And so yeah, the door to door sales and then was sitting on the couch at the time and I said, look, this is a bit boring. I'm living for commission. She wasn't in a role that she wanted to be in and we were just sort of like, well, what do we do? We don't really want proper jobs yet. We're not ready for the jobs. And we ended up moving to South Korea and teaching English for a year over there, which was very, very random, but such a cool experience. And when I was over there, I did a lot of soul searching and stuff like that, which we'll probably get into later. And after that I found myself in India and I literally just saw these bags on the side of the road. They looked awesome. I'd never seen anything like them. They were like, you know, natural kind of vegetable tan leather bags and I wanted one. And some of my friends like the photos of them too. So I started meeting the suppliers and learned that they were like, given all the equipment. All the families in the area.

Were supported and paid really, really well. And most of them had actually lost their jobs initially from the trade shift to China, which also our craftsmen in Indonesia as well. It's a similar sort of story. It's actually a massive thing what kind of like child labor did around the world and how all these talented craftsmen and producers kind of struggled Afterwards. So anyway, this was when I actually found these suppliers. This was almost five years ago. And believe it or not, social enterprise wasn't even a thing then. And maybe like three or four years ago that's when the child labor conversation was getting big. And then because of what happened in Bangladesh as well and the well being in these fashion factories and stuff like that, but it wasn't really a thing. And now they're popping up every, everywhere, which was amazing. But you know, being climate positive or carbon zero or planting trees, no one's even talking about that. So the reason why I started it, I guess is I thought this is a cool business.

I don't want a job, here's an opportunity. And I kind of just took that opportunity and went halves with a mate and we bought 100 bags to New Zealand, thought it would be cool to support these craftsmen in India. And then, yeah, I literally had them under my bed and we built a seriously. And then we, the website took these horrible looking photos ourselves and then eventually it was a mate's garage and kind of built up from there. So it is a very classic like Kiwi build the build from the ground up entrepreneurial story. But to be honest, like there wasn't a whole lot of thought like gone into the purpose and why we were doing it at that point. But as time went on then, you know, these questions started coming up. You know, we're working out why we do it and we're working out okay, like how can we make the biggest impact? And you know, we had, we had the social impact down but to bring in the environmental impact as well. So we've just had lots of moments over time where we've had to, had to pivot and do what's a little bit truer to, you know, ourselves as founders, but also, you know, what's right for the planet as well.

Nice. And how do you balance all of that whilst in the, in the. I don't know, I kind of like to say in the current economic paradigm of balancing profit with impact and doing the right thing, it's, I guess we're in interesting economic times for those tuning in at a later date. This is whilst we're right in the middle of the COVID 19 pandemic challenge. So I mean, yeah, interesting, I know, but I think hopefully say we can kind of skirt around that a little bit and keep it more around the sort of purpose conversation. But yeah.

So, yeah, so purpose. You feel like perhaps it wasn't something that was running deep. Like there's been, it's interesting, you know, for me, trying to unpack where, you know, how do you find purpose? How do you connect to it, how do you manifest it? Maybe not quite the right word, but some people, there's been a couple of people I've interviewed so far where it's, it's clear that they've had it from like almost year zero. It's like, it's just, it's been partly genetic, partly parenting that has led them to have a vision for a future world that is inclusive and you know, is, is about everyone and has that sense of purpose. Whereas others, I guess more like myself, have kind of got to a realization that there's something missing. And I think there is something more I could seek. Which side of that would you say you were on?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think one thing that I do remember now is before I started DAFWG company when I lived in Korea, at that point, like I said, I was reading all these self help books, learning about all these principles, but I started soul searching. And I didn't start until about. I was at a hogwon, which is basically an after school school.

We started about 3pm So I remember going to a cafe maybe two or three times a week where I would start asking these really, really hard questions, you know, but some of them deep, some of them not so deep. So from what excites me to what do I want written on my tombstone when I die? Also the classic question like if money wasn't an issue, you know, you had all the money in the world, how would you spend your time? And some really deep questions in there as well. You know, pen to paper and then you sort of write one thing down and then another thing comes up and you start peeling off those layers. So I think I had a pretty good idea on what I was good at, how I wanted to spend my time. And that was a pivotal moment. But I guess what manifested from all of that one thing was Duffel & Co. But when I, when I started it, I didn't consciously think, right, this is the moment, this is my purpose, I'm gonna go and start this business. I felt like I had a pretty good foundation and I feel like purpose is something that, you know, it's evolving, it's. And I think the more that you know yourself, the, the clearer that purpose becomes. And it changes as time goes on to, to a degree as, as well as we learn, as we become more wise as we come more in tune with, with ourselves. So yeah, I guess I had to Answer your question. I guess I had the. Some good foundations. I knew what direction I wanted to hid in, but not. Not precisely. I also remember.

A few. Or maybe I can't remember if I'd started Duffel & Co. At this point, but I remember going on the train with my brother and revisiting these questions and at one point started crying, which was fully intense. Which is which I was one of those moments, but it wasn't when I had those emotions. And that feeling, I wasn't like, okay, this is exactly what I'm gonna do with my life. You know, it was like, yeah, no, that's me. I, you know, I do feel really passionate about that. That is very true to me, you know, looking at these different aspects and, you know, kind of connecting the dots, I guess. Okay, what am I good at? What are my values? You know, what do I want to be remembered for? And all these kind of things and, you know, if something was taken away from me in life, you know, wouldn't be worth living, what would that be? So really, really deep. And then I know looking back at my childhood and stuff like that and connecting those thoughts and, you know, for me, it's. It's an ongoing exercise and it's. I'm stoked that we're actually talking about this because I feel like I want to revisit some of these questions again because I don't do it.

Often enough. That's amazing. Yeah. And thank you for your vulnerability in, you know, sharing the crying story. I. I've had that. I mean, I. I've certainly cried more as a bloke, you know, because blokes don't cry since.

I've been. Especially.

Kiwi blokes. Especially Kiwi blokes. Yeah. And I. I always say that's like a real test, that you're on the right track of purpose is if. If you can look into the future and imagine you not achieving your future vision on purpose, if that doesn't make you cry, then you're not. You're not on the right track. Because that's the. That's like the real. The real test. Like, do you care so deeply enough about something that the thought of that not happening or the opposite happening would bring you to tears? And I think that's. You can't get much deeper than that. I love that visceral connection to the thing that is going to pull you forward in life. Yeah, that's so cool. And that's. You're 100. Right. You know, we're just all so busy that we don't. We don't want to stop and ponder these questions. And they're hard questions and they're questions that make you cry, so why would we want to go and do that? Yeah, but you have to. I think, you know, you have to go through that.

To be.

To be. To become the human that you. You.

Can be.

Completely agree. And. And I love that question that, that you mentioned earlier as well, which I think that I will also ask myself in my next session, which I'm inspired to do. But I just wanted to point out you mentioned the, the V word. Not, not the dirty one, but V. And I'm sure that you're seeing some of, like, Bre Brown's work, and I find that very, very fascinating. And I've been reflecting on this a lot lately, and I feel like it's such a strong channel to be honest and open with ourselves.

And.

Others. Yep. Because, you know, we've got this layer of armor to defend ourselves from the truth and stuff like that. And I think it's another way of peeling off the onion. If we're. We're being authentic, the more authentic we are, the more ourselves we are, the more. Which means being vulnerable as well, then, you know, the more we can kind of be aligned with our.

Purpose, 100%. From the, you know, all the work I've done, all the work I've studied and connected to is that is the key. It's like, who. Who are you? You know, I'm pretty sure it's Socrates. You know, know thyself. It's like, but actually, who are you? And if you don't know who you are, you can't go and figure out what, what it is you should be doing to fulfill yourself and provide meaningful contribution to those around you. And I think that's, you know, in the modern world of social media and, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, of which, you know, as I say frequently in workshops and talks, you know, I absolve you of having to keep up with us. As a jones, I have that power. You know, we're all idiots. Don't try and keep up with us. It's really hard to actually just stop and go. Well, I don't. I actually don't want that, but I've been told that I should have that. And I think I do wonder if we're going to be moving into a bit of a period where more people have more time to reflect on that and how that might change a few things.

For us.

Yeah, I think, I think we have to, and I think we will. The thing that gets me is, I don't know if it's just the environment that you and I and probably a lot of these listeners surround ourselves in, but, you know, everyone seems to be really passionate talking about purpose a lot of the time. Lots of social enterprises popping up, you know, that's kind of, you know, your work is helping their, you know, businesses find their purpose and strengthening that. Right. Whereas for me, I'm in this whole social enterprise scene, so I see a lot of it, but it does feel like it is growing and more and more people are getting on board and more and more people are meditating and. And so on. But then again, that's in our little bubble. So I do hope that it's. It's happening outside.

Of it. Yeah. And I think, yeah, there's. That there's always that risk that there's a sort of a hardcore group who are genuinely doing it. And then it's. It's easy to see some purpose washing and impact washing and people claiming they're doing good, but actually, is it doing good and are you really doing it? That's a whole other.

Challenge.

I guess. But I have heard that before.

Purpose washing.

Yeah, yeah. Start using, because obviously greenwashing as well. So I'm going to definitely.

Impact Washington. There's, I mean, as an example, so a good mate of mine, Zach, who I'm interviewing, I believe in the next couple of weeks, he does similar work to me in the States. And, you know, he was just highlighting a couple of examples on LinkedIn of companies reacting to the. The pandemic situation right now, where one of them, you know, clearly articulates on their website that it's all. They're all about their staff and growing and helping their staff to, you know, thrive and do what's right and what have you. And they're one of the companies that are perhaps not acting in the most ethical way in terms of how they're recompensing their staff in a time of financial hardship. Whereas you look at how some of the big corporations of the world, like Patagonia and all birds, have responded saying, you know, look, yep, we are closing down our stores for a couple of weeks, but all our staff are going to be paid. So, you know, we're doing the right thing. And so I think there's. It's really easy to put some values, put a purpose statement out on the website and, and say, hey, we're doing it. But, you know, as Zach was saying, it's. It's do your actions and behaviors align with your statements on social media? And that's the true, the.

True test. Yeah. Practice is not always the case. Yeah, exactly.

That body. So just finishing on the sort of the soul searching part was. Was there one specific moment that you kind of felt really led you to pick up that first book or, you know, to sit down and write that first question or was it just a more sort of generic malaise, the thought of having to go and get a job in inverted commas that pushed you down.

That path? Yeah, that's a really good question. I'd kind of been eased into the book reading because I was always. I was obviously in sales. So you need something to. You needed to start setting goals and. But it was more down the whole like achieve, achieve, achieve goal, goal, goal motivation track and not so much hey, like let's be mindful, let's be present now, like let's slow things down, you know. But one thing that kind of. And I think you actually talked about this with Catherine, like mindvalley was huge.

And when I was in Korea and when I was writing these questions, that's when I started meditating and I started using Vishen's six phase meditation. And I think to actually do the meditation correctly, I needed to figure out what I actually wanted because there's a little bit of visualization.

In the exercise. So I was like, well, I don't know what to visualize. I don't actually know what I want. And I think that that triggered me to go and ask all these questions. But I would say it was probably like a few things. My brother was a big inspiration for me as well. So I think there were kind of like a few things hitting me at once. But that, that meditation I think got me over the. Got me over.

The.

Line. Yep. So since I was overseas, new environment, new people, not many people spoke English where I was. So I did feel a little bit lonely and isolated even though I was with my girlfriend at the time. And I think all of those things helped. If I was in New Zealand working the 9, 9 to 5, I don't know if all of this would.

Have happened. Yep. Just try to carve out the time and like I said, just having those, those couple of nudges in. In the right direction. Exactly. That's super cool. So, yeah, tell us a bit more about this. Go down sort of the Duffelin co route for a little bit. What's. So you've got some bags under your bed and in your mate's garage and things are Pretty good. Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about.

That journey. Yeah, this is a really interesting one actually. So at this point we're in the garage. I can't live solely off the business at this point because we live in New Zealand and.

Which I love. And so I get a job. I was kind of in career, I was teaching. So I was sort of on teaching buzz a wee bit. Yeah. And I started lecturing business at a polytech. Turns out that was the only way I could get decent paid teaching without actually having a.

Teaching.

Degree. Yep. So I found a bit of a loophole and that was a really interesting experience. I mean it got me out of my comfort zone, which was, which was cool. And so business going, teaching as well. Got to the point where I did my yearly reflection, which like I said, I need to actually do. And I was in Melbourne with my parents for New Year's, thought, you know, I was too old for R and D, so thank God I did this. And when I remember getting an Airbnb on my own for two or three nights and then started bringing up all these, all these questions and pen to paper, soul searching, checking in with myself. And one thing, one of the main questions was, you know, what's holding you back? Back. And to me it was my relationship, my social circle and a few other things. So I had that realization when I was basically again like isolated for, for a couple of days on my own. You don't really. When you're in this. And I was meditating as well when you're in this state. Like I know that lots of, even Bill Gates does it, but I know that lots of people do it right. They, they'll go away for a couple of days and go camping or just get an Airbnb somewhere on. And it is such a good time to reflect. Don't take your phone. And then like, what else do you do? Because it's so hard to carve out the time, but it's so hard to do the work. So I need to force myself to do the work. But I'm going on a little bit of a tangent. So got back, quit my job, you know, ended a relationship and then moved to Bali. So that was my. I call.

It.

My.

Nice. Because what I realize is. And lots of the stuff that I'd been visualizing back when I was in Korea, using the MindValley 6 phase, meditation was surfing every day, living in like a really cool villary looking house with like, you know, by the beach and stuff like that. But I kind of didn't think anything of it. And then I realized, once I got to, by the way, the reason why I moved there is I realized I could actually afford to live there and live and go full time on the business so I could give, you know, 100% energy towards Buffalo and Co. And so it was amazing how I ended up over there. And then I was surfing every day and I was meeting all these incredible people and all the things that I really wanted. And I happened. We started having problems with our supplier in India. The wrong stuff would show up. We would order like 10 satchels and 20 duffels and we'd get three duffels and 40 satchels. It was that bad?

Yeah. So it got to the point where, like, Kai and I were thinking about wrapping up the business and, and doing something else. So it was kind of a hard time for us. But then I was just at a local market in Bali and I met more craftsmen on the side of the road and I looked at their products and I thought, wow, these are amazing. These guys are really talented. Then went and visited them and, you know, the mum is cooking a nasi goreng in the kitchen. There's a few sitting on the floor working. And then I just knew, I want to support these guys. These guys are awesome. They're like really friendly, really kind hearted, Indonesian, welcoming people. And they turned out that they worked for Quicksilver and Volcom, I don't know, like 15, 20 years ago. But all those factories shut down in Indonesia because of the trade shift to China as well, and the child labor and stuff like that. I think Indonesia also had its own problems with some of that kind of stuff. But basically they were super talented and so we were really stoked to get them kind of all under one roof and. Yeah, get them making stuff. And so that was a huge moment for us, discovering them. And it was amazing how, like, you know, not only by moving to Bali did I start surfing and doing all these things I wanted to do. But from a business point of view, things really started to click into place. And if I didn't take that time away in the Airbnb in Melbourne, there's no way I would have moved to Bali. Well, you don't know, but.

Yeah, you feel it would be less likely.

For.

Sure. Yeah. Wow. Super cool. And then so I think, I mean, you've touched on a couple of really great things. I think, you know, that the isolation, that, that finding time and space just to let your own thoughts bubble up to the surface and connect.

But the growth part as well. Like that, that for me is a real big part of purpose, is like grow. Growing and developing and challenging your own beliefs and your own ideals and, you know, becoming the best version of you that, that, you know, that I guess there's meaning, internal meaning in going through that process. And by doing that, you become a better human, which kind of closes the loop on being more purposeful and being. Being a better global citizen. So I think, yeah, you've touched on some really cool points there, which I, I definitely see are relevant to.

To everyone.

Yeah, growth is massive. And I remember when I first started on this, let's call it the Purpose Journey, I. About a year in, I thought I'd read so many books and I thought I knew everything. And as time goes on, I realized that, you know, I actually know less and less. And there's just so much room to grow the whole time. And so there's always capacity to grow. Humans, you know, we have unlimited potential. There's not a finite moment. Yeah, maybe if you're Buddha, I don't know. You're like, I 100 know myself. There's no moment. And so for me that means that, okay, well, if I don't 100% know myself, then I can't 100% be living my purpose. But I could do it 10%, I could do it 50%, I could do it 60%, which is still gonna, you know, make my life and everyone.

Else'S.

Life. Exactly. A hell of a.

Lot better. And I think. I'm pretty sure it was Aristotle also who said, you know, I know nothing. It's that like, know thyself, but know that you know nothing in the grand scheme of things. And I think it's. It, it's. There's some. There's a bit of tension to a degree, but it's like, yeah, the more, the more you look inwards, the more you expand outwards and kind of like, say, realize that there is this infiniteness that we're a part of that you will never know potentially. Who knows what happens after our time on.

This.

World? We. Blue and green dot floating in the middle of the universe, in middle of lots of other universes, continually expanding. Yeah, there's probably more.

To life.

Yeah, we're quite insignificant in the scheme of things, aren't we? You know, Tim Ferriss says that we're just a bunch of monkeys on a.

Spinning ball.

But I guess it's, it's. Yeah, it's rationalizing that and putting it into action on. In trying to make that visceral. The Stuff that we're actually doing on a day to day basis, you know, relieve some of that suffering for some people, which is, I guess what, what you sort of identified in terms of, you know, how can you help this amazing community of people that had been, I guess, left behind by the move of sort of global capitalism around the world in terms of finding the cheapest labor sources? Which I guess that brings us nicely to the idea of B Corp. So Duffel and Co is a B core.

How did you discover B Core? And yeah, what was. Why, like, why did you choose to.

Do it?

So we were at the period where we were like, we're doing so many cool things and we feel like we're making a great impact. We're supporting these craftsmen, we're planting all these trees, we've taken plastic out of our supply chain. We work with a leather substitute made out of pineapple leaves and the list goes on. And we were just doing so much and we're like, there's no actual certification for this. We were like, okay, we could do free trade, but I think it costs, I don't know, a grand or something. And that's just one part of our business. How can we. What's something that encapsulates the whole part of our supply chain and is also going to keep us a little bit more accountable as well? And that was, and that was B Corp. That in my eyes it's the best certification out there because it takes into account the whole supply chain. But I'll tell you what was quite funny because at the time when we got it, we had a team of, I think four or five of us and it takes into account where the materials came from. If you're a product based business, right to your staff wellbeing and happiness. But we had, you know, four or five staff all just on the, on the startup, small business, social enterprise vibe. So obviously everyone was like in the survey case, five star, five star, five star for the staff wellbeing because we were, we were so small. But for corporates like that whole staff wellbeing thing is of, is massive. And it's amazing that B Corp takes into account stuff well being because most of them are just like, okay, yes, where did the goods come from? Okay, let's take that into account. And it doesn't paint the full, the full picture. Yeah. So I, I love B Corp and to answer your question, it was a certification that was kind of the best fit for, for Duffel and Co because it took into account the whole.

Supply chain. Fantastic. And I Think that, I mean, that's why I'm such a big, I guess proponent or.

Supporter of it is, is because it is wider in it, in its view as to what it, what it, you know, looks into. Because I think it's really easy for an organization to go, okay, well, you know, we're, we're child labor free certified. But hey, don't ask us about our carbon footprint or you can have minimized or offset your carbon, but hey, don't ask us about the conditions of our workers in our supply chain. So yeah, that's why I think it just helps businesses understand more about the touch points that they have in so many more areas to help them become a better business so that we can create that.

Change. So.

That'S such a good example because you see it all the time, right? We're carbon, we're carbon zero. And then you buy something from them and it's full of plastic.

All the time. But yeah, I really.

Love your. Not to say that, you know, if you're going down the carbon zero route, you know, don't, don't not do that. But yeah, just think, think more broadly and I guess that's maybe.

Yeah, an interesting time that we're at where obviously in New Zealand we've got a lot of businesses that signed up to the Climate Coalition and climate change and climate change risk mitigation seems to be the big area that most big businesses in particular are playing in. But it's like, yep, you know, adulting is hard and you know, you can't just look at the one environmental piece and not consider the social community because, and I guess the UN SDGs are sort of pointing towards that. You know, this stuff's all interlinked. You can't just solve your climate challenge on its own in isolation and ignore all the other components of your organization and supply chain and what have.

You. So.

Yeah, I think like a lot of businesses lack that authenticity because it's sort of like, okay, it's awesome that businesses are taking these steps. You know, they're, they're on the road to becoming carbon neutral or they're fair trade or something like that. You know, it's better than doing nothing. And it's hard, it's complicated for these big businesses. We understand that. But what gets me, as you talked about impact washing is just, you know, just be honest and be truthful of where you are on the journey and say what your plans are and where you're going because no one's perfect. And even with Dafu and company, we've always said, look, we're not perfect.

We use leather, and we can explain why we use leather, and we don't think it's the worst thing. And some people do, and we acknowledge that, and we do acknowledge that there could be better ways of doing things. The whole leather conversation is extremely complex. But we, you know, we acknowledge that. And we're on a journey to become better and more impactful and more authentic. And we want our customers to always understand that, and most of our fans do, and I think that's why they support us, because we're not. We're not making up shit. It's essentially. But we're also saying, hey, we're not perfect. And then you've got these bigger businesses essentially saying, hey, we're amazing, and we're.

Seeing here.

Yeah, and I think that's. That's interesting because, I mean, because we. We first really connected when I was doing some work with the Conscious Consumer team and we were looking at getting you guys on the platform. I think we did eventually, back in the day. And I think I've mentioned in other episodes, or if not, I've certainly mentioned it in. In passing in conversation, but it seems, again, it's coming back to that vulnerability. And I feel certainly my experience of working in big business is it's like, you know, admit no weakness. Don't let the customer, the market, or anyone or the competitors see that we're not as good as we kind of saying we are, because they'll. They'll get in there and, you know, they'll. It's a weak point for us. And we. We certainly had that with a couple of larger organizations who we were talking to at Conscious Consumers, where, you know, they were like, look, we. We don't want to put ourselves out there because we don't want to be criticized for what we're not doing. And it's like, well, but you're doing some really good stuff. And if people heard about that, they'd probably be supporting you a bit more. And, And I think we're maybe at that time where, yeah, more people just need to say, hey, look, we. We're not as good as we could be, but we. We have a real desire to want to do more good. Can you all just help us on that journey? And I think people would buy into that and there'd be a lot more public interest around that rather than, yeah, these kind of. I don't know, it's kind of like, yeah, these sort of fake attempts at saying we're doing the best that we can. Whereas actually scratch the surface and you kind of go are you.

Though really?

Yeah. 100. Very cool. So I guess, yeah, B core because awesome. Come be a B corps. That's definitely where it's at. But just touching on the sort of social enterprise thing, I don't know. There's an interesting movement I feel down here in good old Ototahi, Christchurch around people maybe losing a bit of the allure around the idea of social enterprise in its purest form. And more. More so I guess like looking at organizations that are businesses for good.

How do you define a social enterprise? What would you call a social enterprise in your.

Own terms?

It's a really good question. I guess if you get a keener certified.

They'Ve got one definition for it. But even that's a little bit ambiguous and I think they got theirs from Australia. For what? Because you know, at the moment we in New Zealand if you're registering a business you can only be a limited liability company or, or just like a sole trader or what you mean social enterprise is an ngo, but there's no. Yeah, yeah, a charity. So there's not. No, there's no such thing as a social enterprise. But the one way you could say, you know, you're giving away more than half your profit. Yeah, but that's tough. I think another way is like, okay, well what's happening in your supply chain? You said that you interviewed Michelle Sharp. I think it is from Kilmarnock. You know, she has a really cool labor force right. Where they're having like, you know, deaf people and disabled people making like headphones and all sorts of products, which is really, really cool. But if they were doing that and they weren't giving away their profit, that's fine. You know, they're doing something awesome. That to me that's still an impact driven business. So I think that the term social enterprise is just a synonym for a purpose driven business or impact driven business. And I feel like there's an impact driven business or a purpose driven business or small business and then there's a purpose driven corporate which are completely different things where the smaller businesses sacrificing a lot more, more in general than the.

Bigger business. Yeah. And I think that's, that's certainly where a couple of the people and I need to, I need to book this interview in. There's a group, group that want to have this conversation around like, you know, what is social enterprise? But I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head and think that's that's the real challenge is that, that 50% going back into the enterprise or, or solving the problem. And I think that is hard, that's really hard for any, any business to do. Whereas like you said, I think, and that was interesting certainly with Michelle when she was at Kilmarnock, we kind of stopped using the term social enterprise and used exactly what you said. We, we were referring to Kilmarnock as an organization of impact. And it's like impacts at the heart of what we're aiming to do. But, and I guess this segues really nicely into the, you know, the profit, the impact conversation. You know, if you haven't got the funds to employ the people, you, you can't make impact. And I think it, it's a really, I think we're in this interesting period still where there's a lot of charities trying to work out how do we maybe become a social enterprise. And I guess the stereotypical one is they go, well let's start a cafe and we'll make money in the cafe and that will fund the charity or you know, we'll start some micro enterprise. And that's like a really hard road to go down versus, you know, and I think this was sort of part of Michelle's take in, in, in moving out of the not for profit sector into the corporate is, you know, if she can affect 2% change at Vodafone in New Zealand versus maybe half a percent in squeezing the lemon of the impact that Kilmanic's making exponentially, you're making way more change. Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. I mean, yeah, it's a hard, it's hard, but there's, yeah. Interesting to unpack your thoughts there. I think align with kind of where I was.

Going. Yeah.

I think like the, the most important thing to think about is you need to measure impact and that's why B Corp's good as well because essentially you're doing that when you get your certification. I know Akina, you know, they work with businesses to measure theirs as well. And you can also have a constitution. But I think that you need to know, you need to measure your business because you need to look, know for a fact that you're creating net benefit right to the world, either both socially and environmentally or, you know, you can't be creating a negative impact of either. Like one of them could be neutral. And to me that's a business doing good and that's actually really, really hard. You take, take Dafuonco for example, where we're transporting products around the world. Okay, Suddenly we've got a hell of a lot of carbon emissions that we have to admit.

And then you've got to take into account, okay, how much our Craftsman being paid, Are they benefiting? Have they got enough money to feed their families, things like that? Can they go to school? And then you've got to take into account, okay, well, what about the employees and New Zealand that we have? Are they on a living wage? How are they going? Are they enjoying themselves? So there's a lot to unpack, but if you can just take all of everything into consideration and be like, nah. Overall I know that we're creating, you know, and the hardest, the hardest part in my eyes is the environmental. As the environmental benefit, especially for big corporates and many businesses are like, oh no, we're going to like slow down our environmental impacts. Where like we kind of took a stand and we said, no, like with Duffel and company, we want to reverse them because it's kind of too late to start slowing down. And I think like, you know, in the future those businesses, because, you know, millennials are pretty switched on when it comes to purpose driven business and stuff like that. But man, like, I think it's Gen Z, they're asking your parents why they have two cars. That's crazy. It's amazing, right? So those guys are the future of the workforce. So in 10 or 15 years, if these bigger corporates haven't sorted their shit out, then no one's going to want to work for them and they're going to crumble. So it's actually like if you're doing, creating that net benefit, it's actually an investment for the future. Everyone's going to want to work for you and you get the best talent and also your customers are.

Actually doing the right thing all to boot. Because I think that's.

Yeah, yeah. Sleep.

At night. What a crazy idea. Yeah. But 100% agree. It's the time for mitigating the bad that you do. We're, we're rapidly or if not way past that and exactly as you say, you know, net regenerative business is a really, really interesting concept. And I think, you know, when you suddenly start looking at some, you know, just even whole business sectors, you kind of go, well, in what way are you meaningfully contributing to the sustainability in the, in the raw term of, you know, the ability for us to continue doing what we're doing for as long as we can keep doing.

Changes the dynamic on a conversation rather than just, well, how much more money can we take out of this organization or can we, you know, extract from the market the next few years so that, you know, we get more money in the coffers? It's, I think it's, yeah, really interesting times ahead on that. But yeah, regenerative business, it's the only way forward because if we're not regenerative, if we keep on the extractive path, it's not going to.

End well.

No, no, it's, it's not. And for small businesses it's also a challenge because it's already hard enough starting a small business. And what, I don't know, the stats are always changing, but it's always somewhere in between. Like 16, 90% of small businesses fail. Okay, well what about small businesses that are doing good? What's that? Right. And I think that it's.

Actually, I would agree and I think based on my, well, based on my own experience of, you know, keep starting my own business and you know, try to push to keep that going. Over the last five years, it's, it's been bloody hard and there's been regular moments. You know, my wife, she runs her own B corporation. You know, there's been, there's been multiple times where we've been like, are you paying the mortgage? Because it's looking pretty skinny for me next month.

And I think that that is one of the big challenges. And I had a conversation with a couple of young lads in the UK a couple of weeks ago who were looking at starting a social enterprise and they had an interesting idea of working with a food bank. And then through the food bank they were going to start getting some sponsorship and corporate engagement and then they were going to create a micro finance scheme to loan money to these disadvantaged people to go and start their own business. And then when that business was successful, they were going to, you know, take, take some capital out of that business and reinvest it. And exactly as I said, as you just said, it's like, okay, what's the rate of failure for a startup where the, the, the owner or the, you know, the entrepreneur is from a well developed background, They've got a B com or they've understood business and they've got a supportive family and friends and they've got some capital. Okay. And you're going to give some money to these people who are already systemically disadvantaged. More than likely coming from a, you know, they had a bad start in life, they potentially don't have business acumen, they haven't been involved in the corporate World you're going to lend them 30k sterling and hope that they can go and start a micro business. It's like that's.

Almost criminal.

Sure, yeah, yeah, I did hear what was the name of, of that company because I did hear about a couple of little schemes like that. The micro financing was a little bit of a.

Hot topic.

You know, it's been.

Yeah, I mean, I know obviously microfinance has been massive in Southeast Asia particularly I guess Indian subcontinent with the UNIS foundation and what have you. But yeah, I can't remember who it was locally, but yeah, it's just in that context of starting, starting a business of any description, if you don't have full capability and full resourcing is really hard. And, and I know this was something that Michelle and I commented on frequently at Kilmarnock. It's like doing good is bloody hard work. And when you're fighting systemic barriers to do good. Because if doing good was easy, every business would be doing it. It's, it's not, it's not ingrained. So I totally think I'm not. And it's hard because, you know, I guess we, people like you and I want more people to start businesses that kind of their business to do more good. But it is a bloody hard road currently and I think you have to be aware of that before you jump in thinking, oh, it'd be great. Everyone's going to save the world. They'll all support my business and you know, we, we'll create this amazing change by this time.

Next year.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's one really, really clear disadvantage in terms of making profit at the moment for being a social enterprise or a purpose driven business or whatever we want to call it. And that is the price point, right, that you know, these, these corporates or sorry, not even corporates, just businesses that you know, don't have that social purpose or they're not doing good by the environment, they're not being taxed at all for that, but they're actually, you know, generating more profit but depleting, you know, exploiting people or exploiting the environment and it's actually unfair. So the, the way forward, you know, they need to pay some sort of.

Playing field because at the moment it's not.

Yeah. And consumers like they do understand that. But at the same day, like if every consumer's only gotten this, got a certain amount of money and if they really love a T shirt and it's, and it's 10 bucks and the, the alternatives 100 bucks, then yeah, they're probably going to buy the ten dollar t shirt. They might feel a bit guilty about it, but that's kind of the way it is at the moment and it is shifting and people are willing to pay a bit more. But I feel like there needs to be some sort of, you know, repercussion on the, on, on the non social enterprise side, especially if we're extracting stuff from the, the environment that we shouldn't be or exploiting people. And I think that's the kind of.

The biggest. I totally agree. It's even. I'd kind of, you know, forget about that part of it. You know there are. Because it's interesting you mentioned lecturing. I'm currently co teaching an MBA program called Creating Impact LED Enterprises. And as part of that we were discussing bottled water as a topic and you know, it's quite a hot topic in New Zealand. And, and the, the, a lot of the argument was framed around well, who like you know, resource consents and you know, how much money should people be paying to extract the water. But beyond that there was nothing, no recognition around. Okay, what are the long term external costs of extracting that water and putting it in bottle and then what about shipping that bottle around the world and then the cost of disposal of that bottle at the source or sorry at the, you know, with the end user. And yeah, if, if every company had to account for their full supply chain, which is I guess where you're back into the B framework of truly examining your, your organization and its major stakeholders, you'd have to think that a lot of businesses wouldn't be doing as well as they would be doing financially and would have to drastically change their makeup, their DNA and how they approach. So do you think that's something for governments to, you know, part of my vision would be how cool would it be if basically for you to be a business in New Zealand you had to be a certified B corp. Do you think that's the answer or do you think it's going to come from like consumer pressure or this, you know, the Gen Z millennial people coming through and.

Demanding this.

It's hard to say. But I will give you an example. And the bottled water is such a great example, Tim, because right now we've got, I'm not sure if you know, for the better good.

That the water company made from water bottle company made from plants.

I don't know, like the whole supply chain. But I think it's pretty cool. And you compare that to the Coca Cola company pump or whatever you know, everything in a plastic bottle and then you know, for a start, all of that plastics made in the factory, okay, what are those emissions look like? Okay, how much oil have we extracted from the ground to create that plastic? And the list goes on and it's like, okay, well if they were actually carbon zero because they're shipping that stuff all around the world and say for the better good the plant based water bottle company is, you know, how much, how much would they have to increase their price by? And I think what's, what's going to happen to make a level playing field. But what's going to happen really, really soon and what businesses are starting to do is like you said, focus. It's more geared towards the carbon zero side of things and removing emissions. So you know, by 2050, you know, new Zealand's aim is to have zero carbon emissions. And so that I think that's where we're going and businesses are going to have to start taking action because it will get to a point where if they don't then I don't know if they'll actually be able to, they'll get taxed. So I don't know what the repercussions will be but I think that's where you know, just from the government, where the government stands at the moment, that's the way it's going to. But then there's all these other factors and if we could somehow like you know, advocate B Corp. The problem is in New Zealand it's still getting some traction and I think the average person doesn't really know about it. So if you're listening, definitely Google it and learn more about it and tell your friends about it because in America it's huge. We're seeing great leaders, Patagonia or Birds, these bigger companies really, you know, doing epic, epic, epic work and they're also making a lot of money. So it proves that it can be done on a mass, on a mass scale. But Tim, that would be the dream if everyone was, was protesting being like, okay, all businesses need a B corp to operate and imagine what the world would look like then. So I don't know what, what, what's going to happen but I think that in terms of carbon we're on the right track but there's a lot of other to.

Think about. I think it's spot on there. I think that the carbon is, I guess it's literally the canary in the coal mine. It's focusing the attention, it's getting businesses to start thinking about their global impact in one pillar of their business or one part of their business. And then I guess there was a really cool study. Unfortunately it was done in the office of Coca Cola in Madrid. But they basically showed that doing good is contagious. So once one person starts doing good in an organ, they basically, I'll put a link in the, in the show notes. But they essentially had two groups of people and one group, they said, hey, look, every opportunity you have to perform an act of kindness to a colleague, you have to do it. So holding a door open, offering to buy a coffee, offering to help them out at work, like really just small acts of kindness. And then how to control group in the office who were just, you know, business as usual. And what they found was the people who were offering the acts of kindness felt happier and more engaged. But then they also found that the people receiving the acts of kindness started offering acts of kindness of themselves. So it kind of proved in this one study that, you know, doing good is, is contagious because you feel good and you want to pass it forward. And I guess it's. The other example I use is if you're in a, you know, a queue of traffic and you let someone into the queue, you know, they typically say thanks to you and you feel pretty good. And then, you know, a couple of streets further down, they'll let someone else in. And that kind of ripple of doing good can go through, you know, just as quickly as, I guess, people passing on the bad. And so, yeah, if we can get organizations to start doing some good and then they get that engagement internally, externally, and can build on it. Yeah, it's just how quickly can we.

Do it? Yeah, but the pay it forward effect.

Isn'T.

It? Yeah. And, and I mean, it's, everyone wants to feel valued. Right. And if someone lets you in, you're just literally, you know, feels warm. If you, if you're stuck in traffic and then, and then you're more willing, you feel better and then you're more willing to do it to others. So that 100 makes sense to me. And yeah, imagine, imagine.

That world. I think that's, that's the thing. Like, you know, we, we can't even imagine how good it could even be. And, but it's like, I'm willing to go and give it.

A go.

Yeah, well, if you, if you're happier.

It'S easier to be kind. There's going to be more laughter. It's been scientifically proven over and over again that you're going to be more creative, you're Going to do better work. You know, if you're, if you, if you're at work and.

You'Re.

Angry. Yep. You're not going to do a very good job and that work's going to be less meaningful. If you're in a really good mood, it's easier to focus. It's easier to kind of, you know, access your intuition and think outside the box and stuff like that. Honestly, if you're angry, you can't think out. Well, I can't just think about, I can't think outside the box. So better ideas come justifying your. Yeah, Exactly.

A hundred, 100. And in these organizations, I think it's, there's a lot more to it than having a chill out zone with a table tennis table as well. I think that's a little bit of a short shortcut.

It's behavioral. Exactly. That's what it is working is, you know, it's not just a case of hey, we'll do the B core assessment, we'll get the tick and then we'll kind of, I mean if an organized organization wants to do that, you know, sure, go and do that. But the real key is how do you take the people on that journey to being truly purpose driven and, and living a life just like you are. So, yeah, interesting times ahead. Well, look, we're, we're at the hour mark, so yeah, probably a good time to sort of wrap up and. Yeah, I guess. Any other final closing thoughts.

You'Ve got?

Yeah, I think, Well, I think we make a little commitment, Tim, and encourage the listeners to do it as well and kind of just do a little random act of kindness today, you know, due date 24 hours. So same day, same time tomorrow. So about 2pm tomorrow and we'll have to report back on Facebook messenger what, what it is because we can't tell everyone else to do it if we don't do it. You know, we've got to practice what we preach and encourage everyone else to do it. That would be my final thought and I'm interested to see.

What happens. We can maybe both post it in the show notes. I'll. You can let me know and I'll let you know and then we'll, I'll put it up there. But. Awesome. Hey look, and thank you.

So.

Much. Awesome. Got to know you a heap more, you know, than we have done in passing perhaps over the last couple of years. I'm kind of almost sensing that there's more we can unpack. So I'm thinking maybe we should do another one of these, say in a couple of months when you've got your new enterprise up and running and you can maybe give us some more in depth reporting and thoughts on what's happening in the world of the sort of startup business for goods sector. I think that'd be.

Pretty cool.

Yeah, no, definitely. I really enjoyed chatting to them and I think purpose is such an awesome topic to to talk about and I really enjoy all of the tangents and the rabbit holes that we go down. I can't wait to.

Go down. It's one thing that keeps me going normally, finding little Internet rabbit holes of goodness to go.

Cool. All right, mate, you have.

A good 100% great to chat.

To him. Cheers. D.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening in to my podcast. As I say, I'd love to know where you are on your journey and pursuit of purpose. And if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try and answer for you or people you'd like me to interview on this podcast, please do let me know through a message or a comment. Also, do connect with me on other social media platforms. You'll find me on Facebook, LinkedIn and on YouTube. For more information about me and what I offer through my business. Grow good. You can also go find me at www.growgood.co. that's Growgood.co. if you want to get in contact with me, my email is really easy. TimOgrowGood co. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, go well and keep on pursuing your purpose.