#83 B Corp meets business analysis with Jamie Bell of Redvespa

Hey, Kia Ora Shamay. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you as always to our regular listeners. If you this is your first time listening, thank you for popping along. Whether you're a first time or a long time listener, know how this works. Please give us a review somewhere. Wherever you're listening, it always helps. It's always refreshing. I listen to quite a few big podcasts and even they are out there begging for likes and subscribes. So I don't feel bad doing that for myself. Anyway, with me today we have Jamie Bell from Red Vespa. G', day, Jamie. How's it going?

Hey, Tim. It's good, thank you.

Excellent.

That pitch at the start about whether you're a first time or a longtime listener resonates with me because I'm a longtime listener, first time caller.

Excellent. Well, there we go. Who knew? Yeah, I've met a couple of random people who go, oh yeah, I listen to your podcast. It's like, wow. Like someone other than. Well, I know that my mum doesn't listen to it, so it's not even that. It's like, wow, that's quite cool.

Yeah.

Oh, awesome. Well, thank you for, for coming along and being a guest as well. So for people who don't know Jamie Bell or Red Vesper, give us the, the quick overviews to. Yeah. Who you are and, and presumably, well, people might be thinking, Red Vespa, you guys are motorcycle repair people or Nippy inner city courier company. Yeah, let's dispel those myths.

Yeah, for sure. So it's probably good that we start at that point. So Red Vespa is a business analyst consultancy. We've been in business, this is our 20th year.

Founded in Wellington and we've spread to Auckland and Christchurch as well. So nice to be spread around the mortu like that.

When Red Vespa started, Business analysis was a pretty new thing in New Zealand. We played a big role in bringing the iiba, so the professional body for business analysis, to New Zealand as well. So we've sort of been there watching it grow and change and develop along the way. And it's always been at the core of what we've done. I'm not a business analyst. It's still a bit of a dark art to me. I'm learning a lot every day from our BA group. My role title is head of experience, which is kind of a fairly broad role in other organizations that might mean customer experience or it might mean people experience. We've got some great people in specific Roles around that, that I work with every day and support. So there's, there's marketing, there's brand, there's people experience.

There'S comms, which is kind of my core, core background that I bought to the bought to read vesper initially and then what we call our business for good stuff. So that's where B Corp lands.

Nice. So yeah, business analysts, it's, it's up there with sort of got a mate of mine who's a consultant at McKinsey. It's like, what do you do? Oh, it's all very. Yeah, you, you wouldn't understand it. Okay. I mean he's explained to me a couple of times what he does and I'm just like, I still don't really understand what you do.

So if you got. So yeah, for the uninitiated, like if someone's listening and they're going, oh, I need a business analyst, what typically is, is the challenge that someone's face facing that they go, oh, I need a red Vesper in.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I've had a few different presentations from our bas over the years as to what they do and it's always very varied and are incredible. We work with some pretty interesting clients across, across the country. Obviously Wellington, we've got a lot of government departments. Christchurch is a really interesting space for us in terms of startups and agriculture, the primary sector, that kind of stuff. Typically what it tends to be is somebody's got a project.

And, and they need some help with the ins and outs of it. So it's not project management, but it's making sure that you've got the right stakeholders engaged, that you're exploring the right things, that your research is in the right area.

Yeah. And so what we've, I think one of the things that we found in the last couple of years with, with kind of what happened under Covid.

As businesses, you know, had to adapt their ways of working and there were a lot of additional software tools that the businesses picked up and tried. You know, lots of software suppliers and things gave you trials or gave you different versions of their products. And what a lot of businesses have ended up with is a whole heap of stuff they don't use anymore, a whole other stuff that they don't know if they use properly. So we finding we quite often will go in and do a bit of systems analysis for people, find out what they're using, if they're using it right, what they could be using better. One of the things that I think is quite good about Us is we're tool agnostic. So we don't go in and go, oh, you need to use this tool every time. What we do is we go in and we analyze what you're trying to do, what you've got at the moment, what's not working, and then we look for the right tool for you. So, you know, that's kind of a couple of things that touch on the fringes of what they do. But yeah, they're pretty, pretty smart people that can do some pretty amazing things for clients. And, and we're really lucky that we also work with some clients who are doing some pretty cool stuff out there in the world as well. So, you know, that feeds into our values and our business for good philosophy a lot of the time as well, which is really great.

Nice. Yeah. So sort of like a mixture of research advice.

Almost like a bit of mechanic for the.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great analogy. I was just going to say they sort of get under the hood. Yeah. They get deep into your business. They. And it's about really understanding what's going on and digging deeper and asking the right questions. Curiosity is a really important skill for business analysts. And you know, we, we really celebrate that in our people and that, that's one of the really big, big skills that they bring. And then they've got all these tools, you know, business process maps and all these different things that they use to turn that, that curiosity and that knowledge into things that will help move your business forward or, you know, as we say, kind of unleash the potential in your business.

Yeah, lots, lots of matrices and heuristics. Seems to be the consultant tool bag, isn't it? Yeah. I've got a matrix for this. Hold on. Love it.

From another spreadsheet.

Nice. Yeah, spreadsheets, that's where I get lost. Yeah, spreadsheets, not so much, my friend. PowerPoint. Yeah, all over it. Yeah. So. But I'm, I like to feel I'm quite a curious person. See. And maybe I could do all right as a business analyst. But yeah, it'd be the spreadsheeting thing that, getting into the detail. That's. Yeah, that's, that's not me.

Like I say, there's all types of all types of bas. So yeah.

Maybe, maybe.

Yeah. If the B corp world suddenly closes up for me.

And so yeah, the sort of the business for good type of stuff. Like where did that. Was that something that the company was doing from day one or is that something that's kind of morphed over Time. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that side of things.

Yeah, so it's pretty much been there since day one. So the Red Vespa origin story is pretty familiar to a lot of Wellington businesses. The family dining table. Richard Gibson, the founder of Red Vespa, came home one day and basically said to his wife Sarah, I want to start my own business. I've had enough of everything I'm seeing out there. I think. I think I can do it better. He talked to somebody that he valued their opinion, and they sort of said, you know, what's the worst that could happen? Why not go for it?

And from that day, you know, we exist underneath the Gibson family trust. And they've always been of the belief that they're not just in business for the sake of business. There's more to it than that. So that was kind of an undercurrent. That was. That was in the business for probably the first 13 years till about 2016. And then there are a few triggers pulled that made the business look at how to formalize that, what other avenues we might take where we might try and increase that impact a little bit.

Yeah. And that's where the B Corp exploration came in. So started looking into it in 2016, and then we were first certified in 2018. So a bit of a journey for us through about two years there. It just predates me. I came on in early 2019. But, you know, I've heard. I've heard the stories. I'm aware that, you know, our first certification was pretty rigorous process for us. Thankfully, we've got business analysts to support it along the way. So that was. That's a real benefit. But, yeah, it was. It was really, you know, that 2018 certification was the culmination, more or less, of. Of 15 years of work in. In red Vespa to get to that point.

Yeah. And I guess Beagle, it's a useful tool to sort of bring disparate things and approaches into sort of sharper relief around. Okay, well, actually, how do we formalize that? Or. Okay, yeah, we've been thinking about doing that, but how do we make it tangible or how do we do stuff? So, Yeah, I mean, 2018, you know, I'm trying to remember.

Yeah, we certified 2016. We were number six. So.

Do you know what number B Corp you guys work?

I think we're about 16 or 17.

Yeah. So early in the piece. So. Yeah, yeah. No, super cool. And. And because, yeah, we were just talking before we kicked off. So you. You've. You're a Twice certified. B Corp. About to start going well. Got one eye on your next certification coming up in 2025. So. Yeah. What. So you. And you said you were involved with the last certification that went through. So. Yeah. Just talk us through any of the sort of. Yeah. Process or highlights or of.

Yeah.

What. What you guys are doing around the B Corp world.

Yeah. I guess it feels like our two sort of periods of certification are quite different in terms of what it's meant for us and what we've done with it. So 2018, we went into that certification process with a pretty clear directive from Sarah Gibson, who was our CEO by that point, that this was a learning process as much as anything else. The journey was more important than the destination. One of the reasons for looking at B Corp was that the breadth of scope, it looks at your business from so many different angles. So there was a feeling that we could at least learn a lot from it. And I think we kind of ticked both boxes and that we got certified and we learned a lot from it. We learned a lot about ourselves in terms of, you know, that, that belief through those first 13 years that we were in business for good was kind of solidified. You know, we didn't, we didn't have to change a lot through that first certification. We did have to explain a lot. So I felt the, the reflections that have kind of come through to me was.

The, the New Zealand way of doing things versus what at that time was probably quite an American centric view of things.

We had to kind of navigate some waters and tell some stories, but that was really good for us as well. And, and I'm hoping it was good on the other side. Other side too.

And then we got to the point of, of recertifying and, and we weren't sure if we were going to do it.

But we, we. Because we spent quite a bit of our time.

Particularly in 2019, we were pretty heavily invested in the B Corp community In Wellington around B Corp Month, we were organizing events and, and trying to arrange meetups and things. But the, the community was still pretty small then. It was just pockets of people around.

And, and we didn't have the kind of the B lab support out of Australia that we've got now as well, so. Australia, New Zealand. So we put quite a lot of effort into that. We, we, we really wanted to kind of bring people with us, have those conversations.

And then when we got to the point where we had to recertify, we, we thought long and hard about whether we were going to do it or Not. And we did. And it was quite similar to the first, the first time in that, you know, we were in a really good place to be going through that process in terms of the things that we were already doing.

I think, I think that learning thing is still there. We're, we're definitely a, a business that focuses on continuous learning and we're not afraid of change. So going through that process and then afterwards, what I find is the beauty of this is the community, the different ways of doing things, having your eyes open to things that you might not have considered before. So I think some of the learning in that second time was actually still a little bit aligned with.

You know, this is the way we do things in Red Vesper, and this is the way businesses do things in New Zealand. And we're getting asked a few questions. We go, well, you know, that, that feels like a bit of a silly question. Of course we're going to do that. And then we thought, well, do our people know that? And have we shared that with others? And, and, and what are other businesses takes on this? So you just.

For us, that was the real beauty of it. You keep getting these different perspectives and insights and start thinking about the ways that you do things, and then that starts to feed into your planning, not just around certification, but what you're going to do in the next year of operation in your business and beyond that as well.

Yeah, totally agree. I think, yeah. Everything that you've mentioned, it's really. I get frustrated when I see people not using it as a learning tool, not using it as a time for curiosity, to explore, to think about, you know, the program that we run to help people get through B Corp, we call it Be Better. So it's like, use the B Corp framework to become a better business and just use it to shine a light in all those areas of the business and start having those conversations, you know, ask your customers, hey, what is it that we do that's important to you? What are the things that we do that annoy you? Are there things that you want us to be doing better? It's, it's. Yes. It's reminiscent of those programs when the CEOs go back to the shop floor, they're shocked that their staff on minimum wage are struggling to survive. It's like, oh, who knew? It's like, yeah, go, just go and have some chats and see what people know.

Yeah. And you see the research, you know, you're talking about there about your, your businesses being better, the research that's come out lately About B Corps being better positioned and doing better through these tough kind of financial times as well.

Yep.

That just validates and reinforces what those of us in those businesses see.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. There was, I don't know if you saw it, there was an article in nbr, I think it was last week and looking at the sort of the, you know, the raw data behind it, essentially B Lab Global have done like a meta analysis of the performance of B Corps financial, the financial performance of B Corps against the general business community and they've literally gone and found all these studies and so they've done the meta analysis of all these studies and essentially the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly clear that B Corps outperform financially and are more resilient. So I, I've been saying this for a few years now, you know, like the slam dunk case for B Corp. If you just care about making more money, you should actually look at being a B Corp. But if you care about people, plan it, trying to do the good thing, you know, thinking about purpose, thinking about your impact. Well, B Corp's a really useful framework. So it's, it's, it's like an open and shut case. That's right.

Like I said, it was a great, I read that article and it was a great article just to reinforce what, what we already know. Right. Although I did start off talking about I think woke capitalism and I thought, oh, where's this article going? But yeah, Andrew out of B Lab there did a great job in telling that story and the data backs it up. So it was really great.

Yeah, no, totally. And I think, yeah, the US centric, I mean it is, it's a US based framework. Ultimately that's where it's come from. It's definitely got better over the years. I think the more as more B Corps come through in each region, you know, we get to put that feedback through to B Lab and say, yeah, look, this question just doesn't fly. But I just always think, you know, the poor people that are putting together that certification framework, like where would you even start? Question one. I don't know, what do you reckon? Well, I don't know, maybe this. Oh, I don't know. How many points for it? Well, I don't know. Two points or half a point. I mean. Yeah. Where do you even start doing that?

Especially something that covers the breadth that the B Corp does. Right. It's you know, the various ticks and things that you get that go down one avenue. But this is that, that broad spectrum you get with us then yeah, it's, yeah, obviously, obviously a challenge. And, and when you look at all the regions in the world where there are B Corps, you know, we can say, well, it feels a bit weird answering that question from a New Zealand perspective. It's going to feel weird for a different reason in a different part of the world and it's going to feel bang on somewhere else. So.

Exactly that. And I mean, that's what we always say with, with people we're hanging out with is, look, there's going to be some questions that you just trip over the points because you're in New Zealand. There's going to be some that you go, well, that's not fair because we don't, we don't do that here. Well, that's not how we do it. But exactly as he said, you know, I've got a good mate of mine, Loudon, he's got a great quote. Life's not fair, but it's not fair to everyone. And you go, same with the B cork assessment. It's not fair, but it's not fair. It's equally unfair to everyone taking it. So on average, you know, you'll get given probably in New Zealand, you pretty much trip over points in the worker section around, you know, state provided healthcare, state provided superannuation leave, entitlement, parental leave. So like, we get given those points just because we live in a nice country. Whereas, yeah, if you're in the U.S. you're like, yeah, no, we don't get any of that. So, yeah, the joys of, yeah, a global frame. But I think that's, for me, that's the, the power of it is it's a globally recognized framework and if you're a B corp here, that means something to people who know what B Corp is anywhere around the world. So if it was too localized, too idiosyncratic, that's, some people say, oh, you know, it needs to reflect more know, localize. It's like, yeah, but you're going to end up being so nuanced that it's, you know, it's finding that fine line between global recognition versus yeah, this is specific to my city or my village where, you know, we only, yeah, we do this thing this way.

So. Yeah, for sure. And if you, if you want to look at things which are specific, there are options out there for you as well. So. Yeah, and I think the other thing is just reflecting on that, that kind of 2019 experience where we were driving, that's very different now. And there's, there's, you know, You've got wait lists and waiting times for your certification to go through. And, you know, and it's great now that we've got, you know, the B local community in Wellington and I know elsewhere is really strong as well, but my experiences in Wellington, it's a great community and, you know, the connections go well beyond the occasional meetup and that sort of thing. And I think the last two or three that I've been to, there's been a couple of people who are curious about what it means.

Nice.

B Corp. And so it's great to have them drop in and, and as much as kind of tell them a bit of the story, actually hear what they're doing and why they want to be part of the community. So it's. I. We hosted the Wellington Group recently and I was reluctant to give a presentation because I wanted it to be about connection. But my message to everybody was actually that the community is the great strength of this. It's what, it's, you know, a big reason why we're part of it and it's where a lot of that learning comes from and that sharing.

Yeah, you guys definitely seem to be smashing the community stuff in, in Wellington. Shout out you obviously to yourselves, Claire, Everett and Lee from Method Recycling.

Yeah, because I mean, I always reflect, you know, I remember, say, Cath Row, myself and Kathy Gillespie, we are on the B local committee here for Christchurch. You know, Kath and I were the only B local in New Zealand from, I don't know, 2014 ish, until I, I don't know when B local Wellington got established or B local Auckland. It's, it's not that long ago and for the first six years it was the same six people coming to every event. It's like, you guys still a B corp? Yep.

Cool.

Yeah. So wait, cool. And then suddenly you get like a stranger walking. Who are you? Well, this is so exciting. Like you're interested in being big.

So yes, it's. Yeah, I think it's. Yeah. Just, just remember where you are on that journey. I was in Wanganui recently and we're trying. There's the first local B corp there, Duncan from Black Pine Architects. So he, there's Scaffold, but technically they're based in Palmerston north, but they have an office in Wanganui. And then of course there's Kiwi Bank, Kathmandu and Co Op bank who have offices in Wanganui. But Duncan is the first sort of local born Wanganuian B Corp. And yeah, we're trying to give them some advice as to how to kindle this movement. And like, you just gotta remember, you know, I'm just thinking back, you are where we were 10 years ago.

Yeah.

You know, it's gonna take time. It's gonna take a few really events where no one turns up and that's okay, but you got to do those events to almost get the numbers on the boards before people start hearing about it and away you go. Yeah. So what sort of community stuff are you finding going well in. In the Wellington area beyond, you know, just the sort of the catch ups and. Yeah. How does that sort of roll into what the business is up to?

Yeah, so I mean, from our perspective, that connection element's really strong. We love that. And I think there's a good balance that's happening and it's probably what we're seeing is a little bit, I suspect, the, the connections between the different B locals. So, you know, the.

The kind of online learning opportunities that are popping up as well that aren't necessarily limited to one region or it's one region that's driving it and it's being shared with other regions or other B corps across the country. So I think there's a really good balance, you know, and we find that with running just, you know, internally running events is getting it right between your connection and your learning and, and the different ways of delivering it. Obviously Covid's kind of shaken up the way that we deliver things. So I mean that, that's the nice thing and it's kind of cool as well when you see, you know, different presentations. The one recently about sort of recruitment and stuff and Wendy from Kin was there and you know, we've, we've worked with Ken for a long time. Ken brought me on to my role at Red Vespa. So you kind of see them and you go, oh yeah, you know, you know people now. So you're kind of celebrating them a little bit even when they're just. When they're popping up in another B Corp or B local presentation. And I think you start to be able to represent each other's stories and that kind of thing. So yeah, for me, everything's about balance. And I think that that's where we're starting to see in terms of the B local communities, connections across the country, people from different regions dropping into events as well is always nice. Yeah, it's just that growth and it feels like that kind of the Whanganui example, I think is a good one. They're at a different stage. But I still feel like in Wellington, we're still growing and there's still a bit of building happening and it's, you know, the snowball's a bit further down the hill, but it's still moving, so. Yeah, yeah.

And so the same here, you know. You know, we've got an increasingly growing database of people who sign up for the B Local. We'll try and make sure we get some links to all the B locals both here and maybe further, further afield.

Yeah, it, it's just growing, I think, you know, interest in the movement is growing. Understanding of, yeah, the idea of business as a force of good and just, yeah, thinking about how you operate is. It's, yeah, it's becoming just more and more. So. Yeah, it's not, not unsurprising that people are seeking out those opportunities for community, for connection to, to understand again, if anyone's listening and you're like, okay, I'm vaguely interested in this B Corp thing, but I want to go and meet some, go and find a B Local. Just Google, be local wherever you are in the world. There's, there's hundreds of them all around the world now. Yeah. Come and meet a real life B Corp and ask them what they do.

The values alignment that comes with being a B Corp, you know, you know that, that community already has that really strong values alignment. So if you are in that position and you go along and talk to a B corp or pick up the phone and drop an email, McCor whatever.

B Corps are conditioned to want to share that story. And so, you know, like I said that last Vloca Wellington, there were a couple of groups there that were exploring it. And I watched those people go around the room and have really, really good conversations, really positive conversations that was about what they were doing, about what these other companies were getting out of B Corp, about, you know, families and pets and kids and all of those kind of things, like there's just, there's an immediate kind of trust and openness that comes with those groups. And so like, if you're in there, then awesome. Let's, let's talk about this.

Yeah, that's the common refrain or comment is. Yeah, in general, the B Corp community is a really easy one to connect with and do business with, particularly B Corp. To B Corp, like people. I mean, I mean, I'm probably a bit of an outlier, but I will literally go, okay, right, what, what product is there that I want that, you know, can I find a B Corp version of it? You know, so my toothpaste, you know, the clothes that I wear. Like, I'm a bit of an outlier because I'm pretty B Corp focused. But yeah, it's. It's generally really easy. And if you are a B corp talking to another B corp in particular, it's like you just like you say, you know that there's some basic shared values and ways we're thinking approaching business. That just means it's, it's an easier door to open rather than. Yeah, not.

Yeah, yeah. And I share that value as well. So, you know, like four years ago when we were organizing things.

Our approach was to look and see which other B corps we could support. And for the most part, that meant that we went somewhere that served people's coffee. That was about as far as we could go with it. But we posted recently, you know, and we jumped in and we're like, okay, who have we got that can supply all of these things? We're like, okay, cool. We've got a good, We've got a decent list and got a decent spread.

Yeah.

And when we, when we reached out and started talking to them, they're like, yeah, this is awesome. Like, how can we help? Let's, let's support you as well. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And even just going into the supermarket, I did a LinkedIn post probably a couple of years ago now where it's like, I've just used my Kiwi Bank B Corp credit card to buy some pukka, B Corp certified tea, some raglan coconut, B Corp certified yogurt, and I cover it. There was a couple of other things and it's like, wow. Like, that's quite cool. Yeah. You know, and again, I just look back to the early days of the movement where you just go, there's just nothing. There's like just. Just nothing. It's the same six companies. Yeah. I mean, Etique was, was, I guess, an early consumer brand that you could get. Get your head around. But yeah, a lot of the other ones were service businesses where it's like, yeah. Whereas like you say now you could probably cater quite a decent banquet just on B Corp. A lot of honey brands. As long as you're into your mead.

Yeah.

It shows you. It's just proof that Marmite just, you know, isn't worthy. And, and chocolate spread. What are you doing?

No, but it means I can make a really solid sandwich for my kids. So that's good nutrition and goodness.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, I think there is something to be said for that though, right? Like, you know, we're all, we're all Consumers of some sort and being able to kind of shop B Corp like that and, and the increasing opportunities that come up and options is a pretty cool thing. And it's a pretty, it's a very visible way that you can see the, the kind of, the movement growing.

In a previous life I worked at Auckland Zoo and it was at the, the point where, you know, the palm oil story was really strong and, and heaps of pressure was being put on Cadbury at the time for shifting to palm oil. And we, we took an approach of trying to come up with you know, like shopping lists for people of palm oil free alternatives to the things that you know, people are running out there buying that's filled with palm oil. And you know, when you start digging into that it gets pretty difficult as well. So you know, it's, we are all, we're all consumers to different levels whether we like it or not. And to be able to have easier options or, or more visible options for kind of ethical consumption is great. Yeah.

100 yeah, I thought, I think there was something I saw on the TV this morning about an app that the zoos have just launched. Exactly on that, that palm oil thing. So you kind of like scan it.

The, the food industry in particular is really interesting one. I was listening to a podcast about sort of health and nutrition the other day and how, how the nutrition, like the food and nutrition industry basically in the 70s was completely transformed from being, you know, pre that it was mainly everything that you were getting was natural. You know, it's like it's just a natural product. But that sort of 60s to 70s, the introductions of sort of mass produced plastics, then the introduction of some chemicals, preservative sweeteners, enhancers, like all that cascade of stuff that's been brought in. And there's a blog I want to do on this. So I guess I'm sort of formulating in my head right now because if you think about, you know, purpose and impact as your lens of a business, you know, and it also ties in. There was a news article because in the Financial Times where some of the shareholders of Unilever had said, you know, mayonnaise doesn't need to have a purpose. You know, it doesn't need to have a social purpose. You go, well okay, yeah, it doesn't need to have a social purpose. You know, like you got, you've got Ben and Jerry's at one extreme who you know, make big stances on global issues and that's theirs to do that if they want to do that. So they use their ice cream as a brand to push.

Social topics that they think need changing. That's cool. Yeah. Mayonnaise doesn't have to do that. But if you bring it back down to, well, what is the purpose of food? Well, the purpose of food is to provide you nutrition and vitality and do no harm. Well, then you go, okay, hang on a minute. So why are you putting loads of these cheap synthetic oils into your products? So instead of just like, try and try and find an off the shelf olive oil that's just got. Sorry, off the shelf mayonnaise that's just got olive oil and eggs in it. It's impossible. They've all got canola oil or rapeseed oil. The reason they're doing that is not because it's better for you, it's because it's cheaper for them. And yeah, I just think that the world of the consumer world has been driven by that. Like just, we need to make it cheapest, we can sell more of them. But I think this is the thing that more and more people are going, actually, I don't want that because I see that the damage that that's doing, whether it's to me as the consumer or socially or environmentally, the cheap cost of you making that stuff, you know the hashtag TEMU or whatever it's called. Yeah. And increasingly you've got that choice.

So yeah, that purpose thing is interesting as well. You know, I've been thinking about that a little bit in terms of our business because we're, we're looking ahead to, to next year and you know, strategic planning and that kind of thing and reflecting on what the purpose of, of Red Vesper is. And we, we define it as to unleash potential and people, business and community. And if you take that purpose by itself, you know, that doesn't say anything about business analysis.

Yes.

You know, we, we could be selling mayonnaise under that purpose. We could, it could be anything. And it's just that we've, we've, for 20 years we've invested in business analysis as, as the, the thing that we use, the tool that we use to help unleash that potential across all of those, across all of those categories. So, you know, that's, it's a really, it's a really. Obviously everybody knows it's a strong thing when you've got a really strong purpose, but the application of it and then the, the other layers that, that show where you use it and how you use it, whether that's mayonnaise, business analysis, whatever it wants whatever it is. And so I think that's, that's, you know, something that, that I love about Reed Vespa. It's one of the things I, I made quite a career shift to come to reedvespa. So as I mentioned I'd worked at Auckland Zoo. My background was in museums and heritage.

Wow.

And you know, to, to go to, you know, a private business consultancy was quite a shift for me. And it, it was at a point where the own, the, you know, as I said, it was Tracy at Kim's. Tracy and I have been friends for a very long time and, and Tracy was kind of working there and said oh, you know, if you're interested in other roles I can send some through. I said oh, I'm kind of interested but, but not seriously. And I started getting this sort of raft of emails from me. How about this one? What about this one? What about this one? And everyone I looked at was like, well if I'm going to leave where I am now, which feels very aligned with passion and purpose, I've got to go somewhere where I can see the same kind of thing. And eventually the, the Red Vesper role came through and I went okay, I think this is one where, where that's true.

And you know, once I looked into it and looked into B Corp, hadn't heard of B Corp at that time. So for me that was a new thing to explore and understand and, and it was just that immediate thing where you know, that was a signal. Everything else that I was looking at validated it backed it up that the purpose was real and that I could go into this business and, and you know, have an impact and live that purpose.

Yeah, that's super cool to hear.

Is quite often. Yeah, I mean I, I believe on possibly fundamentally unemployable in the real world now having been self employed for so long. But whenever I look back and think about when you're looking at jobs, you, you could read through the job description. Okay, you're saying that so what that, what I know that actually means is the culture's terrible. You're going to flog me to with an inch of my life every week. But I'm going to be paid maybe relatively well. So yeah, so I think again it's a common thing that we hear when people, when people connect to a B Corp or a truly purpose driven business.

It's all in alignment but there's no, there's no bs. It's like no, we say what we're doing and we are doing it. We Might not be perfect at it all the time, but, you know, we're doing it, I think. Yeah. People are quite often nicely surprised when you see that or when you, when you connect to that.

I remember going for a job interview somewhere else and I asked the specific question, you know, what, what's the culture like here? Like, can you tell me the story of the culture? And they said, we do the stuff quiz together every day. That was the extent of the answer. And you know, we did stuff quiz together every day. But that would probably be the last thing that I would tell you about our culture and what it's like.

It's like the minuscule part of it.

Yeah.

So how did you get into the world of museums?

Probably accidentally, actually, I feel like accidentally probably sums up most of my career choices. I, I grew up in Central Otago and after high school I went to Otago University because that's what you did, you know, that was, that was the natural progression.

That's the path.

Yeah, yeah. And I studied English and art history because I liked them in seventh form. I had no idea where I was going. I just knew that I was going to be there for a little while. After three years of, you know, my first experience with a BA as a Bachelor of Arts rather than Business Analysis.

I did a one year diploma in marketing because I'm sitting there going, well, marketing makes everything practical, you know, turn anything into it. And then I just went, God, what am I going to do with this? And I picked up a role as a, as a visitor host at the art gallery in Dunedin.

Yep.

Glorified security guard, really. And I was having a chat with my mum and I was like, there's some people here who look like they've got pretty cool jobs, but I don't know how to go about moving from security to the top floor. And she said, I thought I saw something about museum studies or something along those lines, you should have a look. And the next day at work I walked downstairs and there was a brochure there for museum studies course. I think I applied for it and within two weeks I was moving to Wellington to do a Master's in museum studies.

Yeah. And so, so, you know, I kind of bounced around doing that and still was a bit of an outlier in that course. A lot of people that were going into that course. It was at a time where museums were really starting to lean into tertiary education and museum studies as kind of a prerequisite. Up until that point, museums were kind of filled with people who'd been there for 30 or 40 years as a historian, and they'd developed into the. The modern museum. So it's kind of a prerequisite to get in. But most of my colleagues in that course wanted to be a curator. They knew what they wanted to do. And all I knew was that I didn't want to be a curator.

And I didn't know what that meant. So it was a great opportunity to go and kind of explore that world and see what people were doing. And then I finished that course and I ended up going and being a curator, pretty much.

They got you. Damn it.

Yeah, the track works.

Yeah. They always say they don't want to be a curator, but little do they know.

Yeah, yeah. And then so I spent two years kind of sitting out the back of a museum, putting objects in boxes and things, going, you know, this isn't what I wanted. This isn't what I got into this for. And then I went to Auckland Zoo, and my role there was interpretation, which people always ask me if I was sort of a Dr. Doolittle sort of a role, but it really was interpreting the world of the animals for visitors. So it was more. It was about storytelling and experience.

And, you know, that was an incredible, incredible place to work. And. And lots of people will still ask me about, you know, the role of zoos in modern society and all of those kind of things. And the best thing that I could ever say to them was the people who least want there to be zoos are zookeepers. You know, they're so passionate about these animals and the conservation of them. A lot of them would. Would taking opportunities to go overseas and work with them in the wild and look at, you know, rehabilitation programs and all of those kind of things like that. They. They were very much seeing their role as being kind of like this temporary role to try and care for these animals in the hope that the conservation efforts would get better and better and better. So that's why we were talking about palm oil. You know, that was a huge part of my time there was, how do we tell that story in a way that brings people on board, helps them make the right kind of consumer choices?

And that isn't just kind of shock and awe, but it's actually bringing them on the journey with you. Yeah, so I love doing that. And then completely flipped again, became the director of the New Zealand Cricket Museum in Wellington.

That's pretty niche.

There is such a thing. Yeah, it's very. That's very niche. It's funny, though, you know, New Zealand's a country with such A proud sporting history and we are very bad at kind of preserving it and sharing it. There's not much more than the cricket museum and the rugby museum in terms of that, that story. The sports hall of fame in Dunedin has been struggling for a few years.

So yeah, cricket's kind of always been my sport. I got that job and people said to me this must be a dream job. You know, history element, it's, it's your favorite sport. And I, I mean. Oh yeah, I guess it is. And then I was about six months into the role and I was sitting at my desk and looking out over the basin reserve on a beautiful sunny Wellington day while a game of cricket was being played and I thought, oh actually you know what, they're probably right. This is pretty cool. Pretty cool, but very tough in a very small museum to, to sustain the energy in yourself. And when I, when I came into Reed Vispa, wellbeing was an explicit part of my role. So, well being for the business.

And part of what attracted me to that part of the role was my experience through kind of not, not just the cricket museum but, but working in a sector, you know, in a, in the museum and heritage sector where everything is collection based. It's so much of what happens is driven by the passion of the people looking after those collections. They see themselves as real kaitiaki, like the real, real guardians for that taonga and you know, so that means that if I got a phone call on a Saturday night from somebody telling me that their great aunt had played for New Zealand and the only time that they had to come into the museum was 8 o' clock the following morning, I'd be there opening the door for them, letting them in, sharing with them. And that led to some incredible experiences. But it's not particularly sustainable from your own well being perspective.

No, yeah, yeah. Makes life a bit tricky.

Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, I thought I had a pretty random background, but yeah, I think, think you might be winning the, the awards for, for randomness.

Yeah. Super cool. And so customer experience stuff that you're doing now.

Yeah. What does that look like? I mean CX customer experience. It feels like, you know, some people might be, think, oh it's just another buzzword that, you know, someone's going to try and make me pay them some money to map out some stuff that I kind of already know. But yeah, what is, what does customer experience mean for you, for you guys at Red Vespa?

Yeah, I mean buzzwords come and go, right. And they have their time and they, and then they disappear. And if you're working around them, you wonder why it was ever a thing. I mean we've got a really, really great sales team. They, they handle most of our customer experience. And I think the thing that kind of differentiates us and has done since day one in terms of consultancies, a lot of consultancies take the approach of land and expand. So get in there and then let's put more people, let's fill this out, let's kind of take over. That's never, that's never been our approach pretty explicitly from day one that wasn't our approach. It's always been relationship based. You know, we've got an incredible team of client relationship managers who just do just that. You know, they, they work really closely with their clients again to understand what it is that they need so that we can put the right people in, right people in to support them. And I think that's a real strength of us is that relationship based. And what that means is, you know, people are moving jobs all the time and they tend to take us with them, which is always really cool and gives us, us new opportunities. So we've never had to be a business that's really.

You know, really kind of hard and fast on the marketing funnel or customer experience or anything like that. We treat people like, like people, we build the relationships with them. You know, that's constant. I can't see that changing anytime soon. That's a real strength of us. So, so that's, I think that's how we kind of look at that. Probably very different to a lot of other places and certainly not buying into the buzzword around customer experience.

The real.

I guess the part of my role that I'm loving at the moment is the people experience side of it. So we've got a fantastic people experience manager based down in Christchurch who I work very closely with and we've spent a lot of this year looking at the experience of our people and.

Obviously that ties in really, really closely with some of the goals and things that are aligned with B Corp. So we're looking at their experience, what we offer them, what that relationship looks like and trying to develop that and grow that. So it's been a lot of exploring different options, different ideas, talking to people, sourcing ideas from our people.

You know, starting point for, for any idea as well, why wouldn't we do this?

And then, yeah, so, so it's been a really exciting year. I think from that perspective. Just.

You know, I'm, I'm on the, the board of trustees for my kids school. And it was pointed out at a recent meeting that term four last year was pretty much the first time that schools returned to normal under Covid. So up until that point there was still a lot of restrictions on activities schools could do.

And obviously that extended to the wider community. But you kind of forget actually, like we've forgotten quite quickly how close we are to that. Obviously it's still ongoing. You know, there's still a lot of things to consider around it. But in terms of the government restrictions and measures that were put in place, they're actually relatively, they're still relatively recent. So, you know, we're still coming out of that. We're still learning what it means for people. We're still understanding, you know, what the kind of flexible working and hybrid working environments and arrangements look like now. You know, that's still all in flux. So I think for us it's been a great year for learning, for understanding a bit more, for leaning into that and then looking at how we can be.

Better employers for our people, better serve their needs.

Nice.

Yeah. I think it was reflecting back on something you mentioned earlier on about, you know, the B corp made you look at things and then maybe realize that you were doing them but no one knew about them. That's a really common thing where people like the CEO goes, well, in my head, I know that I just hadn't written it down. So it's not written down, but I think, yes, interesting. I mean, like I say, well, I don't work in a big company, but I have worked in a, in big company for some really, really big ones. And it, it was always quite dogmatic and you know, you know, the expectations is you will be here from 8 to 5. There is no buts. It's like some people just don't like, I don't like working like that. Like I, I genuinely don't understand how people can Turn up at 8 o' clock every day and work till 5 o'.

Clock.

And I don't believe that they're all working for that complete amount of time anyway. So. So what? Yeah, what, what are, what are your kind of, I guess two questions. What are the big trends that you're seeing in terms of people experience? And then what would be your top maybe three tips for people to think about? Because I think quite often it's what we see. What I've seen historically is the boss goes, well, I'd like this, therefore you could all have that as a benefit. But actually no, no one else cares about that benefit because it's specific to the boss. And so, you know, health insurance, the boss might go, well, I want that, therefore I'll give it to everyone. But everyone else might be going, well, actually that's not important to me. So, yeah, what, what, what are your top trends and what would be your top tips for people to, to do it, do it well?

Yeah, good questions. I think we're, again, you know, we're relatively unique in that our, the bulk of our workforce go and work in client workplaces. And so, you know, one of, one of the key skill sets for business analysts is to kind of be comfortable with ambiguity. And they also have to be kind of cultural anthropologists or archaeologists a little bit. They have to adapt to the cultures of the businesses that they're going into. And sometimes that, that's really tough and that's where we get involved in terms of support and things. So, you know, there's still this real desire for a flexible way of working. You know, the, the ongoing pursuit of the work life balance, those kind of things. And the challenge for us, and we're always having this conversation and this is what we're always trying to learn from our people, is what does that mean for you when you're in our offices working with us and what's the difference when you're out with a client and the client has different expectations and, and how do we, how do we help kind of navigate those waters for people so that there's not such, you know, a cultural or a way of working imbalance for people. So, you know, that's, that's something that's always front of mind, but it's even more so now.

And, and kind of.

Really being aware and being able to embrace that people have different ways of working. I think one of the really interesting things, and you know, you're talking about kind of the, the 8, 5 or 9 to 5 thing is one of the things that we learned about ourselves during COVID is that.

Not one, one workspace isn't ideal for any one type of, or isn't ideal for every type of work. Right. So a lot of the reason for working in an office, and we kind of, I guess reinforce this a little bit, is actually about connection. You know, you're not productive, you're not at your desk from 9 to 5. There's actually quite a lot that comes from the, the interactions that you have in an office. Doesn't have to be a chat, doesn't have to be an email, just jump over to the desk. Have a conversation with somebody, somebody, learn a little bit about them. So it's being able to embrace that and then going, well, if I want to do. If I want to do deep work, like if I've got something I really want to get stuck into, is the office the best place for me to be doing it. I should probably opt to do that when it's a day where I'm working from home. So being aware of those things and being able to adapt your circumstance depending on the type of work that you've got to do, also see that through.

Virtual meetings and that kind of thing. It's much better if you're going to have a virtual meeting when everybody is virtual. If you have a couple of people that are virtual and then you've got five people in a room, you know that there's going to be a meeting after the meeting in that room and the experience, the ability for everybody to kind of get in on it. So, you know, there's. I, I think the thing is that there's still, in terms of trends and things, things are still evolving, we're still learning, we're still adapting. One of the things that we've talked about is, is kind of holding on to the best of that time. So, you know, we had a. And it really interrupted three years there. But there are things there that were really key for us to learn. So how do we hold on to them, not just kind of resign them, like, you know, trying to put this thing in the rear view and drive away from it as quickly as we can. But actually, there's a few things we should remember. We should look at how they work now, how they evolve, how they develop. So, yeah, I think that's the main thing for us is just constantly kind of reflecting and being aware of those things, those changes.

I think the main thing for me.

Probably over the last year and going forward is about clarity and transparency.

And.

It feels like it's a bigger thing now. And I think as much as anything else, that might be.

The changes in the ways of working, but also the way that employment markets have changed and employers have changed and all of those kind of things.

You don't. You want happy staff, right? You want, you want people to enjoy the work that they're doing. You want them to be engaged and, you know, in a business like ours, kind of on board with the purpose and bringing that skill set in the pursuit of that purpose. And I feel like, you know, there's probably been a trend in the past towards kind of retention at all costs. Like, you know, it costs a lot to get a new person into your business. Let's retain them. And that might mean that we're not going to tell them some things that they might. Otherwise they might, might make them change their mind. You know, I think we've had a philosophy around things like learning and development to, to develop the whole person. If what that means is that, you know, you, a year down the track, you decide that you want to go and do something else because you've learned some really amazing skills. Yeah, cool. Go, go do it. Go, go be the best version of yourself. Go and use those skills. If you can't use them here, then, you know, I'm proud that we've been able to help you develop to the point where you can go and use them somewhere else.

So I think that's, that's kind of the thing that we've been trying to apply, is give people as much clarity and transparency as we possibly can so that they are empowered to make their decisions. And, you know, the people that, that want to be here are here for the right reasons. And, you know, it's kind of, it's. I, I think it's fallen by the wayside in, in terms of the All Blacks. But that phrase, bit of better people make better all Blacks, I'm not sure they apply it quite as strongly anymore. But that, that kind of mentality. Right, so develop the whole person, help them develop some skills and then, yeah, that, you know, we've got people who have been with us for 11, 12, 13 years developing, applying those skills, living our purpose and our values that whole time. And then there's other people who, who come and go in 1, 2, 3. And, you know, when I see them pop up on LinkedIn and see what they're doing now, I'm like, yeah, cool. Like, that's awesome. I'm glad you've gone on to do that. That's, that's you really. You know, if we talk about Red Vesper and that, that unleashing potential mentality, that's what we're seeing in those people.

That's cool.

Yeah. I remember working the first job I had in New Zealand, 2004. I absolutely loved it. It was amazing role.

But it got to a point where the culture internally changed. New boss, he started bringing in his mates, you know, recruiting his mates into the company. Promises were made, weren't fulfilled. Um, it got really sneaky beaky, backstabby. And in the end I said, I'm done. You know, this is not what I, you know, what I. What I'd signed up for, I did four years with, was amazing. And there were. There were promises around. Yeah. Future roles and aspirations that I sat down and, you know, looked this guy in the eye, he's like, yeah, yeah, we can make that happen. And the next minute he gives it to a mate of his, and it's like, really? Like, just tell me. Like, if you told me, I probably would have stayed, but the fact that you did it through subterfuge and it was all just. Yeah. And the someone from the HR team somewhere in the world rang me and said, basically they said, how much more can we pay you to stay? And I said, you don't understand, do you? It's not about the money, it's the culture. I would not. You could not. There's not an amount of money you could pay me because the level of trust that's been broken with my boss, and she was just like, okay, so how much money? It's like, you're not listening, are you? Yeah, we're done. You know, come and. Come and collect my badge and gun. I'm done. I'm out. I don't care anymore. And, yeah, that was my overarching experience of working for larger companies was just the complete lack of culture, trust, transparency, ethics. Yeah. And I think. Yeah, that's why I think the world's changing. I think if I was me, if. If I was where I was now, when I was in 2015, when I. When I started the business, there's possibly jobs out there now that I would look for, you know, dare I say it, you know, sales in red Vespa, or there's now enough big B corpse or B corps of a certain size where, you know, I come from a background in sales, I could probably get a job and probably be pretty happy doing that. But, yeah, when I. When I had that sort of moment, 2040, there were two B Corps in New Zealand and, like, neither were hiring.

Yeah.

So it's like, okay, I'm starting. Like I said, I'm fundamentally unemployable. I just. I think I'm too. I'm too curious on the internal stuff. Although, yeah, maybe. Maybe there's companies like yours that actually, you know, do embrace that more. But I used to just feel like I'd ask the question that no one else was willing to ask at the meeting and there'd be a sharp intake of breath, a bit of a whistle, like, oh, he's just asked that question. It's like, well, sorry, I just thought that was an obvious question to ask. Yeah, Come and see me after Tim and we'll have a chat about that. Oh, okay.

Right.

I've just, I've pointed out the elephant, haven't I? Excellent.

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you want to be able to invest in a, in a culture where the elephant isn't an elephant. Right. We're having a conversation about. Oh, it was the, the question was, you know, would you rather fight one elephant sized duck or 100 duck size?

So maybe we're talking about duck sized elephants is what, is what we're really aiming for. Yeah, I think one of the things as well is, you know, I started off, I took three months off at the last, at the end of last year, so I had a little mini sabbatical and came back really kind of refreshed and had time at the start of the year to kind of think about the approach I wanted to take. And, and for me it was to be very bad at complicating things, which ironically is a complex way of saying keep it simple. Yeah. But one of the things that was, that was kind of part of that is a lot of times in business and a lot of this I've seen around, kind of stuff that links to people experience as well, is that you want it to be perfect before you unleash it on people.

And it's not quite, you know, done as better than perfect. I think in place is better than perfect setting and you know, getting things to a point where you're ready to go, right, this is what it is now and, and it's in place and it's not done. It'll never be done. It's continuous improvement. Tell us what you think about it. Tell us what the elephant in the room is. Let's see if we can make it better. See, see how it fits, how we, you know, that, that whole thing about balancing purpose and profit, like let's talk about what this means to you, what it means to the commercials, what the story is around this idea and how we make it better from this point.

Yeah. And I think for me it comes down to the, the willingness and the lack of ego at the senior leadership level to. And that's what I, I think partly it was the industry that I was in, the medical device industry. I've mentioned it in a few episodes recently. You know, if you've been watching the Pharmacist or Painkillers or the Bleeding Edge or Netflix, like the whole world is that medical world is full of, you know, the dark triad, narcissist, psychopath, you Know, type people who just want to make as much money as possible. And anything that you say against that is, well, you know, you're the weird one. And I think, yeah, it's also, what was it project Aristotle that Google did a few years ago to work out what was the difference between high performing teams and the less performing teams. And basically it came down to trust between the members which was based on the ability for the youngest, most junior, newest person of the team if they felt comfortable being able to express an opinion or a concern, then that was typically the differentiator. And I always reflect back on that and go that that was the opposite of most of my business career was like the boss just said no, this is how we're doing it. Don't care, I'm in charge, I know best. And, and you know, even if you think we're strategically in the wrong direction, I don't want to hear it because I know best. And it's like, yeah, but you, you don't. Because that's possibly not the. Yeah. And I think.

Whether that's. Yeah, I don't know how or why that's changing, but it definitely feels like it's changing and it feels like the more B Corp type companies that we get that more there just seems to be a higher level of consciousness involved with the people operating and whether that's been a generational shift that we're seeing as some of the older generation who, who were from that more you know, almost post second World War dictatorial commander control type businesses. Yeah, I don't know why it's happening per se, but it definitely seems to be a trend more to this. You know, actually. Yeah, well, let's just have a quick check in and see which is interesting because I spent a little bit of time in the military and if you look at like the difference between conventional forces and special Forces, conventional forces are you're being told this is exactly what you've got to do and you do it exactly as I tell. But actually the special forces who do most of the work are in small compact teams where they have, you know, discussion amongst themselves as to how they're going to achieve a thing and make sure that they're all on board. So you kind of go from actually a true high performance in some really tricky areas actually that collegial. Let's make sure we're all good at good about this rather than you're going to do what I tell you clearly outperforms.

Yeah, yeah. I think that team understanding of team dynamics is maybe something as that's kind of growing as a bit of a trend as well, I think. I mean, my experience is that, that, that we're seeing it more in our business and trying to understand it better and, and better support it. And you know, that kind of comes from. We were a little bit of a, I guess, kind of a lone wolf approach for a lot of our people. You know, there'll be one person going out to work in a client team and like I said, they've got to navigate the difference between the cultures and we try and support them in doing so. But, but really it is still them going out there into the world and hopefully being resourced to be able to deal with that. But now we're seeing more opportunities for consultants to go in as teams and be more integral parts of client teams. And I think we're starting to think more and learn more about what that means in terms of ways of working, different ways of supporting people, being more, again, kind of clear and transparent about the roles that people play in teams, the strengths that they have, the skill sets that they bring in. And then while there might be some conflict along the way now that's kind of. That conflict conflict's a bit healthier, you know, and it leads to better results. In the end, I think overall businesses are getting better at that kind of thing.

Yeah, it always astounds me how, because, because again, coming from a sales background, the amount of money that was invested in me for my personal development around sales skills and psychological, you know, how to understand how other people think and feel. So, you know, I, I've probably done every major personality profile system that you can imagine and a couple that you've never even heard of. And so I've got a really good understanding of how I operate and I'm pretty good at picking up the vibe of other people pretty quickly in terms of just, yeah, how they think, you know, how they're behaving, their use of language, you know, you can pigeonhole to a degree by profession. You know, like, typically accountants are going to be really detail focused versus, you know, someone like you don't get into. You don't typically run your own podcast. If you're a detail focused person, it's because you're a people person. So, you know, you can kind of in general start thinking about how people operate. But it astounds me how few people or how few organizations even just do a basic personality profile across their team and let people know. The reason why Jamie's always angry with you is because he's A red personality and he likes things done quickly and efficiently and on task and he doesn't like fluff. And you're what I would call a blue. And you're all about people and everyone having a go and it being collegial. It's like that's why you two don't get on. It's not because Jamie doesn't like you, it's because Jamie's style of getting stuff done is different to yours. But in the bar afterwards, your best mates, you can have a beer together. But yeah, it's just that. And even in the, in, in the home as well, it's like just understanding that, you know, when someone's a bit hungry and itchy and scratchy in the house and their true personality is coming out, it's maybe not personal, it's just that's how they react. Yes. It amazes me.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm, that, that whole thing, I'm increasingly becoming fascinated by ways of working, you know, and the difference between individuals and how they bring that to a team and the, the well being aspect and the, the tensions that can create. So I've just, I've just become accredited as a facilitator for team management profiles. And that's, that's a tool that I, I tend to be a bit skeptical about those kind of things. It's a tool that I got a lot of value out of when I first started at Redvisper where I had a colleague where I felt like, I'm always up against a wall with this person. This is causing me like serious problems. And then we went through that process and I went, oh, exactly what you said. You're a blue person, I'm a red person. And I can see exactly why this isn't working, but actually it should work really well if we were both aware of this because we fill in the gaps for each other. So I've just been going through that process with our senior leadership team and, and starting to plot out where they sit on the wheel and how we work together and the kind of conversations we should be having and who should be leading various things based on those skills rather than just kind of dropping in and going, well, it's your turn, you do this one.

Totally. And I love what you said about, you know, filling in the gaps. You know, that's the key. It's like, okay, you're a real people person, you know, you should be doing those types of things. You shouldn't be so focused on the detail stuff because, you know, that's the Challenge for me is I can do focus and detail when I really, really have to, but it's not my natural proclivity. You say, hey, there's a gap opened up at To PI this afternoon. We're looking for a keynote speaker. Can you deliver a keynote this afternoon? Sure. Yeah. I can do it with. I could give the talk without any prep and it would be okay. Like, it probably pretty good. Like, it wouldn't be the best one with no prep, but I've got a couple of keynotes I can pull out pretty quickly. But, yeah, you asked me to do some meta analysis on some spreadsheets that your crew sent me through. I just don't have the inclination to do it and. And my brain's not wired that way, and that's okay. And yeah, the more you. I think, yeah, particularly as teams get bigger.

Really understanding, you know, who should be doing what. And then I think that also links back to that element of purpose as well. It's like, well, do I get fulfillment and meaning from the work that I'm doing? Well, if I. If I'm constantly being asked to do something that's a stretch for me. Yeah, there's that whole. Was it Mikhailovich flow model of. I can never remember the guy's name, but the flow model of, you know, if you're extending yourself where it's pushing to. To work as sort of as hard as you can, but you're still getting enjoyment out of it, then you will thrive and get better. But if you're just being pushed to a point where, you know, you're possibly embarrassed or. I don't. I can't actually tell people that I can't do this because they think I should be able to do this. Yeah, you completely. Yeah. Disconnect, you know, that purpose of meaning and the desire to even want to be there.

Yeah. I mean, I had this conversation with. With Sarah Gibson as our CEO, and I was talking about my, you know, profile that came back, and it said that in the. In the segment that's called Concluder Producer, my Preference is about 2%. It's about as low as you can get. And she said to me, but. But you do that all the time, so. Yeah, do. But what that's telling you is that I don't really enjoy it. So I can do it and I'm happy to do it, but if you make me do that 50 of the time, I am not going to be loving life.

Yeah, we're going to have a conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's. Yeah, that's Such a. Just. Yeah. The amount that every company could get out of just doing that, I think that alone would solve so many problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just.

Just awareness and acknowledgement. Right.

It's.

That's, that's so important and I, I think that we've got a lot to learn in that area.

Yeah. You know. Yes. It's like we are all different and that's okay because we need different people, different do, different roles. And if all of your people in the company are exactly the same, you're going to be, you know, the ship's going to kind of be lurching on in one direction and you're not going to get the full, you know, the full power out of it.

If I know that you're the person who loves getting done, like, you're the one who wants to see it to the end.

Yeah.

I'm gonna feel bad about asking you to do that.

No. Because I'll be like, yeah, yeah, give me another one, give me another one. Whereas if. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. So it's. Yes. This is like premium, you know, people and culture advice people are getting here for a free podcast. I think we should start charging.

So I guess getting back to the B Corp you've mentioned, so, yeah, you're up for your number three in 2025. So have you got any plans or schemes as to where you might be looking to do some more good? I mean, you touched on some of the people side of things. Like, you're obviously looking at the workers side of things, but yeah. Anything else that you. That you've got on the list to get underway between now and the reset?

I think there'll be more things that will come into play as we keep working on our strategy for next year. So, like I said, we've had a really big focus on people experience this year. We've done really well in terms of kind of ticking off a lot of the goals that we set out to do. There's still a couple left on the list, but we'll look at what we do next year probably with more of an eye towards what might be sitting in B Corp. I think one of the things for us though is, is again, it's that learning thing, but it's also about authenticity. We learn a lot out of B Corp, we get a lot of ideas out of it, but we're not going into it chasing points. Yep. You know, we, we're comfortable, happy to be part of that community and to know that, to have it validated that what we're doing is working towards, you know, being in business for good and having that, that positive impact. So we're not, we're not out there chasing points. I think there's a few things that we need to do to refine what we're doing. Carbon emissions and carbon offsetting, I think is, is still.

Something that we've got to. Got to get right for our business. I'll be really honest about that. We, we did a lot of work last year with some internal resourcing to pull together a process for measuring our emissions, which I kind of picked up when I came in in January. And I think we've still got a bit to go on that journey to get a bit better at it. So I've been looking at some of the other options, some of the other tools that are available for that. Obviously it's really important for us to have that, that baseline year locked in. We can do that with the data that we've got from, from last year. I'm kind of looking at this year as a bit of a baseline, B baseline, two year, just to, to see what that looks like. We want to have that in place so we can look at reduction as well. But the information, the data that goes into, it's got to be really good. As business analysts, we, we know that and we care about that. So yeah, I think there's a few things like that, little things where we'll look to kind of, kind of tweak it and then strategy for next year, kind of build on the success of this year, maybe look a little bit more ahead to B Corp and kind of the changing standards and things.

See what we're doing now that might fit in that what we can adapt.

Yeah, smart move. Yeah. For people who don't know. Yeah. So the B Corp assessment every few years has an update and it's looking like 2025 is going to be a pretty significant update. It's pretty much always been five main sections or topic areas that it explores and it's looking. The latest I've heard is it was looking at 10, but it might now be nine sections that it's moving to. So, yeah, there's going to be quite a bit of change. It's still not fully articulated as to what it's going to look like. So, yeah, we're not sort of making any big moves yet. But yeah, because I'm not sure whether our next certification will. Yeah, we don't know whether our next one is going to be before or after that. If it's before it, then I'M less worried from my own perspective. Although obviously from a client helping perspective, we need to get our heads around it. But yeah, for our business, I, I get the feeling that I think we will be before the new standards come in. So we will then, yeah, be three years away. So we should have some good ideas as to how we can. Yeah. Do whatever needs to be done. Yeah, yeah, I've said it a few times. My only concern, I, I see the logic in. So at the minute, to get B Corp, you need to score 80 out of 200 points. Get those 80 points wherever you can across the assessment. There's no, no mandate or no. Yeah. No enforcement that they have to meet any minimum requirements in each section. The new standards looking likely that you will have to meet a minimum standard across all nine areas. And my only fear with that is, is we might lose some of the middle ground. People who might go, look, we, maybe they don't agree with an area or they're just not that interested in one of the areas or it's just not that important to them in their business and they kind of almost end up being forced to take action on a topic that they're not that invested in that where I think at the minute you can get people, you know, we can still get people into the, into the camp and we can affect a big amount of change across multiple issues. But there might be a couple that they go, well, I'm actually just not that concerned about it. It's just, it's. For me personally, it's not that important. I, I see, I, I can see both sides and, and I still, I still don't know. But.

Yeah, yeah. And it's obviously really, you know, really open and rigorous feedback process that they've gone through in terms of exploring this. And like you say 10, nine, you know, these things are still, I think January, there's another kind of round of feedback.

Yeah, yeah. Some focus groups and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're just sort of sitting on the edges kind of going, oh, let's, let's see what happens with this. Yeah. Like you say, it might be that there's some things in there that are really important from a vehicle perspective that maybe as a business owner's important or maybe this is, I think again comes to that challenge, that regional challenge to make sure that the things that are really important in that, in those B Corp standards actually apply globally.

Yep.

So that, that's the challenge for them and then we'll adapt to it.

100, way above my pay grade. I'm So I just remember back there was a teacher at school, Dr. King, he was the, I think it was Dr. King, he was the guy who wrote the school timetable. So where'd you start? How do you actually make sure that no kid is in the same room, you know, at the same time? Or every teacher is. Where do you even start? Where do you even start? It's like so that's why I imagine people like that running the B Corp impact assessment. It's like, so we got this start here.

I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure we'll have a BA that can help with that these days.

Yeah, yeah. Well it's interesting you mentioned that because in the UK.

B Lab have outsourced some of the.

Certificate, the verification to an independent third party company. So yeah, I can't remember the name of the company now. And also within this region, within the Asia Pacific region, there is Ganache, Tim, who are a company that also does some certification verification work. So yeah, maybe drop a note to Andrew say, hey, we've got some smart people who.

I mean, I think that's the thing, that's the thing, right? Where businesses, whether it's, you know, whoever it happens to be, we're all trying to do, do more with less now, with more demand as well. So, you know, again, it's that community thing, right? It's being able to know where to go for support, for advice or you know, where you need that additional resource. That might be a business analyst or it might be, you know, a consultant who can help you with your B Corp certification. You know.

Yes.

We can't be so insular these days and so proud that we can't look for help. And even to the point, you know, I said on the board of trustees, the school's wrestling a little bit with some new guidelines from the Ministry of Education about how to do this strategic planning. I look at that and go, well, you know, I can help with that. But also actually I think I could probably bring a BA and run a session with the school's leadership and they would, they would get it like that. So, you know, you never quite know where your support's going to come from or the people that might need your help.

You just don't know. You just don't know.

Cool. And so, yeah, you got one eye on B Corp. Any other sort of cool, exciting projects coming up in the world of Red Vespa?

Yeah, so we, I mean, I can't believe I haven't mentioned this already, but our just about the same time as we became a B corp. We, we created a book called your Kingdom which is a guide for well being and potential for youth. So the youth of New Zealand have kind of been a big focus for our social purpose.

So we've had that book for seven years now given away. You can request it from the website, we'll send copies out. There's individuals and groups that work with youth across the country and schools that have requested copies. It's become part of induction packs for new staff at various companies. It's been really amazing having that as a, as a resource and it's opened the door for us going and talking to different communities. You know, the last two years we've gone to Festival for the future run by Inspiring Stories in Wellington. I've been there both years. I think I've had one conversation about business analysis. The rest of it's about social purpose, B corp and this the resource that we've got around your Kingdom.

So we're looking at, we've got working with some consultants right now actually on a schools program around that.

Which is a little bit more of a connection between the work that we do and that element of social purpose. So unleashing potential new. So you know, we're looking at how we can bring creativity and problem solving to kids to help really strengthen that, that skill set, that superpower for them which is effectively what our bas do for our clients. So there's, there's a great connection there. And I mean from a, from that business for good perspective I'm really interested in how we can continue to kind of democratize that BA skill set. So we've got a few initiatives at the moment. We run what we call good projects which has tended to operate as a buy one, give one kind of model for charities and community groups and things like that. So that's been really cool. But it also, you know you have to have a level of funding to engage in that you have to be able to define your project. Not all of that is particularly easy. So again looking at how we share that skill set that this year that's, that's looked like some of our consultants with some, some skills in specific areas delivering lunch and learns to the likes of the Graham Dingle Foundation.

Nice.

So you're looking for more opportunities to be able to do things like that.

Is really, is really important for me and that's where I want to see our business for good growth happening.

Nice. So if someone's got a good course that might need some support.

Yeah.

I'm open to all conversations.

You never know what's going to come out of it. So, you know, if you've even got just the smallest kernel of an idea, I'd love to hear from people and see what we can do.

Nice. Super cool. Well, I reckon that's probably a good time to wrap it up. Great to connect. Thank you for all the work you're doing, you know, with the local community in the Wellington area and beyond. Yeah, I think you guys are probably one of those real under the radar B Corps. I think a lot of us sort of service companies compared to the, you know, the, the, the, you know, the glitzy, showy, you know, consumer brands that people are increasing, getting, getting, getting more, more awareness of. Yeah, I think there's a bunch of just hard grafters doing some good work around the country and around the world and that's companies like you guys. So keep, keep vespering, keep doing the good stuff.

Thank you. Yeah, that's, that's a great point. You know, I appreciate the, the opportunity to tell a bit of.

You know, we do, we do fly under the radar a little bit, but we are very proud of our B Corp certification and being part of that community. So it's nice to have the opportunity to talk about it and celebrate it.

Nice. Oh, maybe we'll do a special research repodcast when you, when you've got the next one over the line. It's probably not a bad idea actually, that. Learnings from Recertification, part three.

Cool. All right, mate, well, we'll leave you to it and we'll catch you soon.

Peace.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Growgood. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp, how to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.