#85 Organic wine adventures with Deep Down Wines

Hey, Kia ora. Welcome back to the latest episode of the it's the. It's the Be Better podcast. It's been that long since I've recorded one. I've just come back from holiday. I can't remember the name of my own podcast. We're winning it today. Back in January. We're recording the first episode in 2024. So happy new Year. Although it's probably already a new year because we've had a load of episodes come out before this one. But anyway, here we are. Thank you as always to our listeners, one of whom is one of our guests today. So thanks to Peter. You'll learn more about him in a minute. If you're a new listener, thanks for tuning in. Hopefully you enjoy it and you'll check out some of the other ones and as always, give us some reviews. Tell us, Tell us what you like. Anyway, let's get into it. So with me today, I have got Peter and Clive. Peter and Clive. How's it going?

It's great, yeah. Real good, man. Nice to see you. And. And Happy New Year. Did you have a nice break?

I did. I was just saying.

Yeah.

Before we came on air, just came back from three weeks in the States. Yeehaw. America. Everything is just big and it's awesome. Yeah, yeah, America. I just, I. I do like America. I just like their. Their style. Like, I had a couple of meetings with some potential people that might help us get some business over there and it's just like, cool. What do you need? How can I help you? Great.

Yeah, same. I like, I like going. I've been to America a few times and I like the way they operate. They're just so much more open and relaxed, you know, like, it's just straight up. There's no, like, hidden agenda. It's like, this is what it is, take it or leave it. And that's actually bloody refreshing these days, isn't it?

100. You know where you stand. But anyway, who are you two guys? Before we get too far down my holiday trips, we got CL Pizz. Who are you? Where you.

Cool. So we're. We're Deep Down Wines based in Marlborough. We're just a small organic producer making wines. We believe in trying to work with good humans. B Corp certified, proudly. Really pumped to be part of the community.

Yeah.

And we've been going since 2019. The business is just me and Clive. So.

Small, passionate and hopefully growing. That's how I put it.

And throw throwback for fans of British comedy. Clive, you might remember this one. It was Harry Enfield and Chums. This is Birdie. He is my partner and also my lover.

And also my lover, yes. The Dutch police people. That was my favorite. I don't even get me started on Harry.

But you guys aren't. You're not together, you're just.

No, no, no, we're not partners like that. No, no, not that. It's not that. It would. Yeah, but no, no. And we, unfortunately, we live at the opposite ends of the country from each other as well.

Was that. Was that design on purpose?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think if we spent too much time together, this wouldn't work, to be honest. I often call Peter my second wife, which is. Isn't. Isn't probably the greatest label for him, but it's how it feels sometimes, you know? Well, I live in Marlborough, make the wine and look around the vineyards. Peter thinks I dance, you know, in the vineyards, on the full moon, that sort of thing. It's not as glamorous as that, to be honest. But no, I make the wine here, check the vineyards, get the logistics sorted and help out with the sales and stuff. And Peter pretty much runs the business from Auckland, but it's a 50, 50 share, sort of between our two families. And, yeah, we're not trying to, like, you know, like, break. Break any huge records or kind of create a massive corporation. We want to just have a really awesome business that helps to look after two families and does the right thing.

Nice. Super cool. So how did. How did you two guys meet and decide? Hey, were you both, like, just drunk in a wine bar one night? Like, hey, you look like.

My wife said, I'm not allowed that app.

So.

No, it wasn't Tinder.

Why have you got this on your phone? I don't know, just someone said I should get it. Yeah, awkward.

No, we.

We met in 2018. I had a little consultancy which I'd run for eight years, which was small New Zealand producers and working as a marketing manager for them overseas. And that was a lot of fun. Learned a lot, lots of great experiences, heaps of travel. But it got to the point where either I had to start working for those companies full time or start something myself. And. And we all, me and Sarah, who's my wife, had always talked about starting our own little wine brand. And I was down in Marlborough catching up with different people, talking to people, and. And I got put in touch with Clive and we hung out for a night and literally had a couple glasses of wine and sat at his kitchen table from about 7 o' clock. To about 2 or 3 in the morning, just chatting and got on really well. Had lots in common, got daughters with the same name, both love organics, both love the ocean. Just real natural synergies and. Yeah. So we decided that we're going to start deep down and, yeah, it's coming up five years, which is emotional. Emotional.

As Woody Jones would say.

Yeah.

I feel like there's gonna be quite a few British comedy references that might lose someone. So it's been emotional. It's from Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels, which you can see as a movie you are missing out.

Yeah.

British gangster, dark comedy movies. And so is that story true, Clive? Is that how you really met or just.

Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Pete is pretty honest, to be.

To be fair.

No, that's true. And it was nice to meet him and it kind of came at the perfect time for me. I'd been making wine for Saracen Estate for 12 years previously to that. And that's an organic biodynamic vineyard. And that felt like it was coming time to kind of, you know, move on from. From a big job like that. So, you know, Peter got in touch, we hung out, we spoke about possibilities and, yeah, it was sort of serendipitous, to be fair. We love so much of the same stuff. Like, we often. We talk about football more than we talk about wine. You know, we're both into the Premier League, as he said. We've got all these different things in common and. But the most important thing is that we've got complementary, you know, skill sets. You know, it's easy to make wine. Well, no, it's really hard to make wine, obviously, but you can make wine, put it in the bottle. But then, you know, selling it is actually the hardest bit, to be fair. And I wouldn't have been able to go and do my own label properly without, you know, the. The, you know, Peter, our side, sort of as a partnership, I. I wouldn't have had the energy to have done all of that on my own. I don't think it's. I've seen a lot of people try to do that, you know. Yeah, just stuck some wine in the bottle and then go out and sell a few bottles. But you don't go anywhere, you know, like, it doesn't become a real business. And of course, Peter came exactly from that. From that area, which I think is why it's such a good, you know, relationship, really. So it's been really fun. I mean, it's something when you do your own business after working for Someone for so long, you do your own thing. Like, the doors are all open, you know, like, there's so many options, so many things that you can do and, and that's the most. To me, the most exciting thing about our business is that we are small, we can be nimble, we can make decisions, you know, and we can do the right thing. So, yeah, that's been. It's been an awesome five years. There's been some ups and downs, obviously, like the economy's never easy, but no, it's been a great, great start, to be honest. Really proud of what we've achieved so far.

Yeah, super cool. I think. Yeah, it's having hung out with you guys for a little bit over the end of last year. It's clear that you've got a great dynamic and, and you have that complimentary. Which is, which is fantastic. Which is what you need. Yeah, yeah.

And a shared kind of passion for wine as well, do. I mean, like, we've both been very lucky to be exposed to lots of the wines of the world and, and kind of cut our teeth on things that are inspiring and we're also trying to kind of make wines. When I say that we believe in them, they're. They're not the kind of stock standard we, you know, we based vineyards based in Marlborough and the style of wines coming out of Marlborough are quite similar and they've been massively successful, you know, over the last like 30 plus years and. Well, 40 years and they'll continue to be. But we genuinely feel like there needs to be an evolution in farming, being organic and wine making, taking away all the additives as well and being able to do that and showcase wines that kind of inspire the next generation of drinkers and sommeliers and buyers is for us an opportunity. But, but most importantly, really important for, for New Zealand and, and the Marlborough wine industry.

Nice. So for the. I, I guess. Well, so my, my dad used to be in the wine trade. Although to be fair, I didn't really learn much because I was quite young when he was in the wine trade. So it wasn't really, you know, it wasn't the thing.

I would say. I would say from the outside the industry looking in increasingly sophisticated consumer who maybe thinks they know a lot about the wine that they're drinking, but possibly doesn't add on top of that some pretty good marketing stories. Bloody marketing people with their coloring in pens. Peter. Yeah. What's. What's the state. Crayola.

Yeah.

What's. What's the kind of state of the wine industry, so obviously New Zealand wine over the last little while, you know, we're all based in New Zealand that, that's had a massive hit globally. No thanks. Or thanks in no small part to people like Graham Norton drinking his Kiwi based Sauvignon Blanc on tv. Which leads me to think, have you hooked up with one of the Premiership clubs yet to go, hey, would you like your own special boutique wine? Just saying.

There's no Arsenal. There's no Arsenal Reserve.

What a great name for it though. The reserve, you know, number, what is it? Number 12. The Reserve I'm wasting here. I should be working with you guys.

The state of the industry. I don't know, Clive, do you want me to answer or do you want to answer? I mean, it's.

Well, I might get too emotional. Peter, you have a go.

We come at it from a certain viewpoint, so it probably be quite good to be pragmatic and look at it from a kind of, you know, you know, bird's eye view.

The, the industry has been ridiculously successful. You know, Malva Savion Blanc has been one of like the world's great marketing successes. And, you know, consumers can pick it. It's came along at the perfect point in time in terms of it being acid driven, refreshing style when there was a movement away from, you know, kind of big, heavy Chardonnay.

It's, you know, in terms of like food trends and kind of like health trends, et cetera. And it's a high production.

Fast turnover, good return business model. And so now there's a lot of outside investment from Marlborough, especially from overseas, from corporate businesses. Lots of the farming is monoculture and is commercial, which means glyphosate and all the other nasty bits and pieces. And a lot of people are making the same style of wine. And what we feel is dangerous is that everything goes in cycles. And so therefore the trend is, is that, you know, mobile Savion Blanc could continue, but when it drops off, there's, there's no kind of, there's no, there's no parachute. There's nothing to kind of back it out. Like it'll just drop off a cliff. And to keep trade and consumers interested, you need to keep evolving. Everything needs to evolve, right? And what we think is necessary is to push towards organic. I mean, New Zealand should be moving that way, people should be moving that way, you know, baseline, because it's the right thing to do for the health of not only the vineyards, but the people around them. And stylistically we need to keep exciting Trade and consumers and showing that there's diversity and interest. And I think that that's something that we're really trying to hone in on.

Yeah. Clive, you got any thoughts?

Yeah, I just think. I think I'll just echo a little bit what you said, really. Like, you know, it's been so successful, it sits in the market well, you know, but it feels like it's more and more fragile. The marble wine kind of industry, as we go further. So to, you know, to do our bit, to kind of, you know, try and expand people's views of what Marlboro can be, is obviously, you know, in our best interest. But we do believe it's in the best interest of the entire industry as well. It's just, yeah, I guess it's that classic. We're sort of almost moving here to the, like, what happens across the world where one region becomes known for one grain, you know. So, you know, it's increasingly hard to find more interesting grape varieties in Marlborough, for example, because production wise, it's a lot more financially rewarding just to grow high amounts of Sauvignon Blanc. You've got a market, you can sell it. It's easy to sell all those things. So it does feel like there's a bit of homogenization going on. And that's never. That's not why we got into the industry. Peter and I are passionate about wine. Like, as he said, we fell in love with all these different incredible styles from all over Europe. You know, New World wines weren't really what we both fell in love with. I'm from England, so that's where I grew up with European wine. Peter spent a lot of time in England working in the wine industry. So similar. He. He hooked into that. So it doesn't satisfy us anyway to just try to make money from the wine industry. We want to make products that we're super proud of that do stretch people and stretch ideas and show there's another way. And you know, when we discussed what we wanted to do in the first place, you know, we threw it around and we had a few, you know, things that were just non negotiable. And one was needs to be organic. And that automatically puts you into a different category, makes it a whole lot harder to be honest, because the availability of grapes and, you know, you've got to change people's perceptions and there's premium pricing and all that sort of stuff. But that's, you know, we weren't interested in just trying to pump up Marco Sodium and Blanc and try and make cash. You know, that wasn't what we got in the industry for. So. So, yeah, so it's, it's something that I think that both Peter and I really, really believe in. Like, we're really proud of what we're doing. It's. It is pushing against the tide, but we're also finding opportunity in that, in there. And I don't think it's. It's probably. I think we probably find it a bit easier to sort of launch a new product, a new face of Marlborough in this environment. It would be to just start another old marble brand and try and feed that through the chain, because that's just getting dominated by big. So. So, yeah, it's not like we're trying to change the world, but I guess in a way we want to alert people to things. And you know, as Peter sort of said earlier on, you know, I mean, organics is one thing with chemicals for growing and what you can put in your wine, but the wine additions is something that we're really, really passionate about.

People don't realize that mostly when you come, when you talk to people about wine, they just envisage it's like this romantic thing. You know, people are handpicking these grapes, you know, beautiful maidens, you know, hand picking grapes, squeezing the berries into the thing, foot stomping them and just putting in the bottle. Isn't all wine. Organic is something we hear all the time. You know, so there's this misconception about what it is in, in reality, it's an industrial process and made in industrial, you know, facilities.

And so, and the amount of, you know, additions that you can put into a wine legally is astonishing. Things that change the flavors, things that change, change the sweetness, things that change the texture. You can adjust the acidity. You can add sugar. You know, you can, there's. You can add, I mean, those are the softer chemicals I'm talking about. You can add, you know, sort of poly PvP, which is like a kind of, like a plastic kind of pharmaceutical addition. You can add animal products. You can, you know, like the list is literally thousands of things that you can add. So, you know, we, our, our mission was to try to do things as naturally as possible and take everything out of the winemaking, if possible. And to make wines, therefore, that told a true story of those grapes and where they came from that year. And the year is, obviously changes the way a wine tastes, if it's hot or cold or, you know, all of those things. And so, so rather than making a product that was Trying to be the same every year. We want to tell a story of that vineyard every, every year and also make the wine more delicious and have more, more character than kind of the. The competitors who are making. Trying to make the same wine every year. So it's something I think that there is definitely an interested in. An interest in, you know, like, we see that we're selling wine, we're growing, you know, so there's. There's your sign.

And it's a long road, but it's. To us, it's kind of a bit of a mission without being, you know, anarchists and shouting about it. You don't know what's in your mind, you know. Yeah, we just want to teach people and show them by, you know, showing them our.

It'll just quickly. It comes down to transparency and being authentic. And.

The interesting thing is if you talk to people, as Clive said, and you say, no, we're organic. And they say, aren't all wines organic? And we say, no. And then we say, this wine is made, you know, only with grapes. There's no other additions. And then we say, our whites are Savignon Blanc with a touch of sulfur at bottling, just as a protected agent. And people go, but, like, why are you putting that in the wine? And if you actually sit down with someone and picked up a bottle of, you know, XY wine from the shelf in a supermarket and said to them, this has got 25 additions, it scares. Scares the daylights out of them. But there's no transparency from the industry. And in places like the EU now, there's like labeling, like requirements, you know, to say that you have to put all the things on the back of your bottle or a QR code that. That will take you to a website that shows. And, you know, in the modern world, there's a real appetite, especially with young people, for transparency, for labeling, you know, food, you know, wine, etc. People want to know what's in the products that they're consuming or putting on their bodies, etc. And. And we deeply believe that transparency and authenticity are kind of like a mandatory. And we want to kind of push that story. And. And as Clive said, they actually produce more honest, transparent wines that reflect the site and season. And at the end of the day, that's. That's what we're there for.

Yeah, that's. Which is super cool because. Yeah, well, it's quite a bit to unpack there, I think. Just what you were saying, Clive, in terms of like, you know, the anarchists, you know, When I first had my, what I call my hard Brexit from the corporate world, I was like, you know, let's just burn the system down. Like they're all. The whole thing just needs to start from scratch. And strangely enough, not many people buy into that energy. It's not very attractive. Literally, it's like people just like, oh, okay, why are you so angry? I don't, you know, I'm okay in my ivory tower, earning lots of money and burning the planet. So, you know, I don't care, mate. So I think, yeah, definite, definite understanding of the parallels that I went through when I saw how business was being run in general. Like, okay, this is, this is not working for anyone. You know, we need to think differently. But I think also the backdrop to the wider food and beverage industry, you know, I think most people are probably blissfully unaware, but I think as you said, Peter, more people are becoming aware of actually just how, you know, the food, the food and beverage industry has. You know, I left the medical industry because that has been co opted by for profit forces. But I think people kind of forget that the food and beverage industry was already co opted probably from the like the 70s when industrial manufacturing processes, like say all these additives and additions that aren't designed to, to make you healthier, they're designed to either reduce costs or extend shelf life to maximize profitability. And the food, I can't remember, I was listening to a podcast not so long ago. There's a guy who's writing a book on the food industry and how it kind of all happened. And they said, yeah, it's really interesting parallel that like you say, you kind of think, well, why, you know, okay, it's alcohol, you know, in moderation, blah, blah, blah. But you don't expect it to be full of harmful ingredients or at least ingredients that maybe aren't supportive of a healthy life. But beyond that, like you say, possibly even what was sprayed on the, on the grapes as well and how, you know, so it's not just, oh, we've got the grapes in, we've processed them, oh, and now we're going to top some stuff into the bottle before we put the screw cap or the cork in it. It's actually, yeah, pesticides, herbicides, all that stuff. So, yeah, and dare I say that the reason why the bigger companies do that is, is not, it's not because they want you to have a better, a better wine.

It's.

No, no, it's just for cash, right?

Yeah, yeah. And if you want to go down the kind of glyphosate path and, and, and what it's doing to, to the farms and, and really people as well, because you don't know how far it's getting into your system when you're consuming these products. I mean, Kiss the Ground's a pretty good doco on Netflix that's worth checking out as a starting point. And then.

Yes, I think I've seen that.

There's lots of. Yeah, and there's lots of other information. I mean, Clive, you'd see so much of it with organic wine grass as well.

Yeah, true. Yeah. I'm currently the chairman of Organic Wine Growers for New Zealand. For New Zealand. And you know, that I guess because I've been organic, I made the first organic wine in Marlborough in 2007. So that was the, you know, the place that I learned, you know, I sort of leapt into the area. It's a, it's kind of, I strike, I try to stay positive, but it's just a battle, you know, because you're battling corporates, you're battling the cash, you know, the finances, returns on investment, all that sort of stuff. And, and doing the right thing doesn't seem to come before any of that, you know, and so it's big business here. But yeah, it's, it is, it is sad. I mean, I do unfortunately get to walk through a few non organic vineyards as well to have a look at a few bits and pieces here. Mainly I work in organic vineyards and we only make organic wine, but I do see the other ones and you know, like, for one, it's a monoculture, you know, and I mean, there's a Sustainable Wine Growers New Zealand kind of organization sort of program that exists that everybody has to sign up to in New Zealand wine. But it feels a bit to me, toothless. I mean, you know, there's a guy at the moment ripping out. He's ripped out, I think 5,000 hectares of land in a questionable part of the region. Taken every tree down, taking every fence down, taking every building off, you know, and it's literally just vines and I think themselves. Well, how can you guys, guys get sustainably certified when that's clearly not sustainable? You know, like monocultures are one of the most dangerous things in agriculture. You know, it's like if you don't have a healthy biodiversity on a place, then you literally can only fight with chemicals. You literally put yourself in that place.

But it is, it's big business and so it does happen, you know, and it's quite sad, you Know, when you look at a vineyard in Marlborough, for example, almost mostly around the world, to be fair, I mean most vineyards are non organic around the world still. They spray like a 1 meter strip underneath the vines with herbicides so that nothing grows and that means the plant grows faster and they get more yield and their operational costs come down, etc. When the vineyard rows are only about 2 meters wide and under every plant there's 1 meter wide, you're literally talking about half the land area in that vineyard is dead. Like under glyphosate soil is dead, 100 dead. Like it's, you've got to dig down 30, 40, 50 centimeters before you find any life because there's no oxygen coming through, there's moss there growing, it's all that sort of stuff. And so I think to myself, like whole regions are becoming dead, you know, and hence that's why I got involved with organic wine growers. It's kind of like, well, you needed, you needed some people that were sympathetic to what you did around you and then there becomes a cause and then you start fighting the cause and then you end up doing that. And I guess that's why in a way, straight away, both Peter and I are interested in B Corp as well. Because we already made those choices before we considered B Corp for our business. You know, like we were going to be organic, we were going to show a new way that, that was going to, you know, produce wines with minimal additions and be transparent and be authentic. And those were the key.

Sort of.

Stones of our business to start with. And then, you know, Peter started talking about B Corp with me and you know, like, it just felt like the perfect match, to be honest, straight away, the perfect match. It was something that kind of almost put rigor around what we already, already chosen to do. So that's how we ended up there, I suppose.

Nice. Yeah, the, the glyphosate stuff, that's was it. I've read somewhere or heard somewhere. I think it's Something predicts like 90 of Americans have got glyphosate in them because it's endemic in their food.

Oh, it's terrible. It's really terrible. We, we hold a conference every two years the organic wine grows hold a big conference in Marlborough. And one year we had this amazing woman from Massey University and she was a professor of.

Occupational carcinogen. So, you know, cancer in the workplace. That's a terrible thing to be a professor of. Yeah, she highlighted some absolutely horrific things just in terms of like you say, like even in you walk in a vineyard that's been sprayed by chemicals, you take that into your house, on the bottom of your shoes, you know, and be. And at some point that transfers into your children's blood, you know, like that's how it works. It's not like you've got to breathe it in, you know, and they can find this in, in people with. Humans never learn till they. Everything up too much anyway. Right? So that, and I believe that agriculture is actually in that place, if I'm totally honest and I'm not an. But I do believe that there's so much we don't know about what we.

Do that I don't.

100%. Yeah, I, I have emceed a conference. It was initially about four or five years ago they started. It was run by Youth for Youth. It was a bunch of school kids from Burnside School here in Christchurch. They put on this two day conference all about plastics in the environment. It's called Enviropast and just, you know, highlighting plastics and, and how you can, you know, mitigate them and some of the dangers of them. And they had a professor from uc, I can't remember his name, he's a professor of toxicology and he, he just was just looking at polystyrene and he said, look, this is what this is, this is. We know what polystyrene does to the body. Basically it mimics the estrogen receptor in the male body. So polystyrene is again sort of endemic in our food system and in our water supply. And so as you ingest it in the male body, it mimics the oestrogen receptor, so you're more prone to. And we know that there's more estrogen in the water system from the pill that women take it. So he just sort of highlighted two chemicals and he said, this is what these are. The main one is polystyrene. And there was a bunch of really great questions from the people at the conference, but I sort of said, well, you've highlighted one plastic. Do we know how that's interacting with Teflon, how that's interacting with glyphosate? And he goes, no, this is the thing. Like we don't know and we will probably never be able to know what all that kind of chimera mixed together. How? Because how do you, how would you start tracking it?

No, it's depressing, isn't it?

It's depressing.

My daughter did a project on, a science project on disposable cups a few years ago because, you know, they come from an environmental standpoint. And during that process, we did some research with her, and we found out that 1 billion disposable cups, and a lot of them are polystyrene. Like, actually, the majority are still polystyrene.

In the.

In America, they use polystyrene a lot. Still a billion cups a day. Disposable, 1 billion.

It's insane having having just come back from the U.S. it's like everywhere you go. So, like, you know, we took our daughter to Disneyland. You know, they got these big signs that, you know, we're committed to a more sustainable future. You go into one of the 10 cafes or restaurants, you get a single fork and a single knife wrapped in plastic. It's like, really. It's like if we just gone back, you know, even on the ark, they would have had wooden dies and forks. You know, it's like, what are you doing? Yeah, it's insane the amount of plastic waste. But on the flip, on the flip side, you've got guys like, I'm gonna actually get him on the podcast, even though he's not a B corp. Greg Hart. He runs a regenerative farm in Napier and he's got. He's doing some really cool stuff around this. And yeah, he. He's got some. You know, with all the storms they had on the. The east coast of the north island late last year, you know, his farm did okay because he's not monoculture agriculture. He's got regenerative farming, he's got native forestry. It's. It's all working. The soil's in good quality.

Yeah, yeah, that's my experience too. Just quickly, in organics is that when there's been like the worst climatic conditions for growing grapes in Marlborough, like heaps of rain, lots of humidity, lots of disease and things like that. It's actually the organic vineyards that hold up the best under the most extreme environments because they've got more resilience because they're not just sitting there waiting to be fed, you know, dripping nitrogen into them for food and a bit of this bit of seaweed. Like, they're actually working hard for it with the soil and the microbes to extract what they need in the right time and in the right balance. So, yeah, I've seen that.

Yeah. And just quickly on the cup base, decent cups. I think the base in Auckland have got a new aqueous hot cup which we use for tastings, but a good takeaway cups and ethically made and home compostable as well. So there you go.

There you go, that's progress.

Shout out, yeah, there is progress.

And for all the doom and gloom, yeah, there has been so much progress, and I feel like the next generation or generations coming through are really hungry to make a difference and they're ready to fight. And in a way, before COVID I felt like we were on a. You know, there's more and more consumers that were making really ethical choices and, you know, with the current kind of state of play with.

I don't know, the feeling, the kind of pressure, and consumers have less money and. And I feel like people are struggling to make the choices they want based on their kind of financial positions. But I feel like there is an increased kind of awareness and an appetite to do the right thing where possible, which is. Which is positive. We've got to. We've got to find some glimmers of hope amongst all this.

It's hugely positive because as you say, the next generation are definitely going to take something, a different viewpoint to what, you know, our parents did. And now, obviously, we're trying to change that, but the next generation are way ahead of us in that. That, you know, so it's not all doom and gloom. It's a period in time so we can be part of the revolution.

We just need to be fast.

Yeah, go quick, Go quick. It kind of almost feels like the parallel is almost like the craft beer world for you guys, where it seems to be like you're kind of echoing a little bit what's been happening there, where people, you know, consumers drifting away more from the big box brands, looking for the more boutique, you know, I want to know what's in it. Yeah. And that. That seems to have had some success, obviously some challenges as well. But, yeah, yeah, there's.

There's a natural wine movement which. So if you make organic wines, you have to be certified, and if you make biodynamic wines, you have to be certified by independent bodies. And they look at, you know, your vineyards and your winemaking practices and everything that you put into the vineyard and seed wine and said wine.

And the next one.

That's really weird, Pete.

We might have lost you.

It's come about from originally. Oh, sorry.

You went all week. It was like you're in a trance.

He was a burning man.

I'm not a burning man. Not a burning man.

So you're saying the biodynamics have to. Yes.

And then. And then there's a natural wine movement which was started or kicked off by fork, you know, tiny winemakers in Beaujolais that pushed against the grain in the 70s and 80s. And that was about using no additions in wine. And that movement has grown and considerably grown. And.

The baseline is basically you should be making wines without additions. That's, that's the kind of mantra, as authentic as possible. But there's no governing body so there's no technical, you know, kind of, you know, there's nothing to wrap it up. So no one has to follow to the code. And so it gets a little bit murky in there. And some of the wines are delicious. And we looked at that movement and we make a natural wine which you could probably consider more like the craft beer market. But we don't want to kind of be tied to the cross, if that makes sense. Like we want to make wines as authentically as possible.

And, and we're seeing, we have to at some point.

Yeah, sorry, yeah, sorry, I was breaking up a bit. And, and we're definitely seeing that, how we've positioned ourselves, which is just authentic, transparent, delicious wines. It does actually reach across most, you know, parts of the consumer profile. So we are selling some wines in the hipster places in K Road as well as the fine dining restaurants in Wellington and Auckland. And you know, like they fit into all of those places. And that's really heartwarming because you know, if you just go out there shouting about like natural wine or whatever, it's, you know, you, you are very, very restricted in terms of the, I guess the market. And also you're kind of in my eyes a little bit. It's a bit dangerous in terms of like, is it a bit, could it become a bit fatty? And is there going to be a new thing, you know, one of these rotations?

Because that seems to be the, the, the, the risk in like the craft beer world is there's now so many, like how do you get that brand loyalty? Because.

Yeah, that's right.

I don't drink a huge amount. If I do have a craft beer, I'll go and check out, you know, the local supermarket. They've got, they clearly understand that they have a lot of middle aged people shopping in the supermarket. So there's just rooms and reams of, reams of, you know, and, and each with her. I'll try this one and I may never buy it again. Yeah, and I guess that's the risk is you, you become part of. Because people. But something. Yeah, you've got this real balancing act of. I think it's really cool. Like you say you've got, you know, the story of the year and the conditions versus, you know, having just been to the U.S. and if someone from Starbucks is listening, there's a lady. There was a young lady in Flagstaff, Arizona whose uncle was British and she knew how to make a really good cup of tea. The rest of your team haven't got a Scooby Doo, despite frequent instruction like, can you just put the tea bags in? Leave it. I'll come back and put the milk.

Put the milk in myself. Don't do it.

Yeah, you know, because Starbucks obviously aims for that consistency, but it's, it's consistent mediocrity. And I think you're, you're offering that. That like you kind of don't know what you're going to get. And that's part of the excitement of life, isn't it? Like, this might be better than last year's, but I don't know yet. So I try it. Or it might be slightly different, it might not be better, but it might have a different. But you're. Yeah, so I think you've got that really cool vibe and the story that you're selling. But then like I say, you're kind of growing a movement that might mean more people start doing it. People actually. Well, I've read that story last year. I want a new story next year.

So.

Yeah. How do you balance that tension or.

Yeah, there's just, just to quickly jump back for answering that in terms of like, I guess you're talking about beer. Someone like Sawmill, who we greatly respect. You know, I mean, those are absolutely delicious beers, but they're not overly funky or weird. You mean you're just really delicious. Premium, well executed examples of what they are. Pilsing is delicious. The IPA is delicious. Do you know what I mean? But they're not wacky and their brand is very clean and, and maybe very focused, purpose driven. B Corp certified, you know, I mean, that's probably someone that would be more akin to. In the beer and the beer market.

That's a great analogy.

Yep. And Sawmill, you know, is, is my go to. Because they're a B corp. And you know, I've met Mike a couple of times. It's like, yeah, I know them and like I said, it's great beer. So. Yeah.

And, and then on the kind of the seasonality, like it was funny. We, we in the middle of COVID We were trying to talk to new distributors in the US and we couldn't go and obviously travel and so we sent people samples of the wines and we'd do zoom tastings and they'd be we'd send them two vintages of each wine so that they could see the seasonality differences, do you mean. And you could be like, this is what we did last year, this is what we did this year. And this is, you know, obviously the same vineyard and similar winemaking techniques. And they were tasting our 2021 Pinot Noir and 2022 Pinot Noir, which were two completely different vintages. 21 was warm. 21. 22, sorry, was cooler. So that you'd have these guys, you know, or girls. So I say, from the importers on, zoom, holding up two glasses in their hands, one would be really dark, the 21. And one would be very light, the 22. And some. And they'd say, what happened? And we'd go, ah, you know, 21. These are, these are, these are the seasons in the glass in front of you. And some people be like, that's way too freaky. We can't work, we can't cope with that. And we'd be like, that's great, see you later, thanks for your time. And then other people be like, that's exactly what we want, our customers want. And it shows honesty and transparency. And we'd start working and that was great. So it's.

Yeah, yeah.

You can't. For us. Like, I think Clive touched on it earlier, like, diversity is the key. Like middle age, being deeply scared of becoming old and only listening to whatever nirvana and eating the same thing and watching the Chase and One Network News every night at 6 o' clock and just reputation. Groundhog Day scares the out of me personally. And also, like, isn't life meant to be an adventure? Like, aren't you meant to keep learning and keep kind of like being interested and interesting and. Yeah, diversity is the key with, with what you eat and drink and do and activities and. Yeah, just.

Yeah.

The day that I watched the Chase, God took me. Please.

It's not that bad.

He watches it.

I'm not a fan, but I do occasionally, occasionally drop it into the viewing matrix. No, I mean, I hear you, I agree. It's, it's, I guess it's, it's possibly why you guys are working. It's probably why I'm self employed. It's why you're self employed because you wouldn't get that working for a big brand, but you get to choose that working in your own business. And it is, you know, being self employed is secondary parenting and marriage. You know, we've all chosen three pretty big adventures.

Yeah.

So there's, there's never many dull moments. In life?

No, there's never time for any dull moments in life. 100.

Yeah. I'm still waiting for my ass to catch up with me. It's like I can see it. Come on, come on, let's go.

Yeah.

Yeah. But not in a, you know, kind of like being a hero way, but you also just want to do something that you're passionate about and when you sign off that you're proud of as well. And you know, I've got a 10 year old and an 8 year old and you know, the 10 year old's getting pretty interested in kind of business and commerce and I mean the way that the world works. But you know, that kind of like falls into it and talking to him about school and you know, what he wants to do in life and those kind of things and you're just like Jesus. Like you've so you've got to kind of be careful of how you paint it because historically it was like you have to work really hard at school and then get a good job and earn lots of money and then like, you know, it's a capitalist model. Right? But, but I feel like there's an awareness now that like really it's doing something that you truly believe in and, and money will come. Do you know, I mean like that's, that's the kind of, it's kind of switched in that sense. You know, financial stability gives freedom in a way but like, you know, being able to do something that, that you genuinely believe in is, is a blessing. And so I think I feel really lucky or and I think five does as well. Do you know, I mean that we do get to run our own business and we found a place that, you know, isn't. We're not going to get to the end of this and be able to buy an island. Do you know, I mean we dream of buying a boat one day together. That's kind of the, kind of, you know, the goals. But if, if it can create a lifestyle for ourselves and our families and we get to work with awesome people, that's. And make things we believe in. As I repeat you, I mean like that's, that's a massive win, right? Like that's a huge win. Yeah.

Amen. I mean that's, I think that's why we're all doing what we're doing and I think that's why, you know, most of the people that we hang out with in, in that small to medium enterprise on the B Corp journey, it's exactly the same. It's like we Just want to. We just want to have a bit of fun, do some cool stuff, hang out with some good people and at the end of the day, go, that was fun. You know, that was an adventure rather than, oh, my gosh, I just gave 60 years of my life to Big Evil Basis Inc. And all I got was a set of cufflinks or whatever.

That's what's so cool about B Corp, though, is like the community, isn't it? It's like, what, you know, I mean, I don't. I haven't met lots of other community members, but I can see from the brands that are involved and, you know, all that sort of stuff and people go there on their own accord, you know, you're not doing it because you have to. Yeah, that's what I love about it. So, like, it's so authentic. I'm sure there are people that try to get B caught because they think it's going to help them sell and all of that. And there's probably a few people that sneak in there, but I bet that's not the majority of people. It's so hard to actually achieve.

Yeah. I mean, look at. Yeah. Looking at just our client base, I mean, looking at some of the companies that are. Because there's a couple that you probably go, yeah, I think that was possibly the marketing team that were driving that one. I'd say after close to 200 ish companies that we've had on our books or have on our books, we've probably had two that I would kind of go, you're not really into this, are you?

You're.

You're doing this because you have to do this. And you can just tell because it's like, hey, here's an idea. You could implement that. Yeah, that sounds like hard work.

Really.

It's like, it's a policy document. You could just change. Yeah.

Nothing with the eggs. It's like, really? The folder.

Yeah, yeah. Can we see the manual in the. Man, it's hard. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So. So you. I was saying. So, Peter, you. You were the one who heard of B Cork first. Was that the story you kind of bought B Corp to the. To the table? Yes.

So when we were starting deep down and I was wrapping up the old business and me and Clive were talking and I read a handful of, you know, different books, Simon Sinek and people like that. And I also read Let My People Go Surfing by Eve, the founder of Yvonne, the founder of Patagonia. And that had a fairly monumental impact on me. Just because of, you know, them obviously setting up a business that.

Of.

Of how they kind of commit their employees and you know, like. Well, can you hear me?

Yeah, you're better now.

All right, sorry, hold on. I'm just going to check my. Where did I get to?

Patagonia?

Yeah, Reading. Let My People go surf.

Okay, hold on a second. I'm just gonna.

Let's have a look, a quick intermission.

Okay.

Is that better?

There we go.

Yeah, seems okay.

Yeah, yeah, sorry. So I read my. Let My People Go Surfing.

Really inspirational. Just in terms of how Patagonia around run their. Ran their business or do run their business, you know, like the freedom for their staff in terms of working hours. Putting in a creation in the 80s, you know, so that people could be close to their young children while they're at work. You know, saying to consumers, don't come and buy a new jacket. Bring it in and we'll fix it. You know, I mean, all the things that were going against the grain so early, and I did quite a lot of research into B Corp and all of it resonated and it felt like a really, like a, Like a. A tribe that we wanted to be part of and it felt like we were doing a lot of those things and we talked about it early doors, you know, back in 2019, but we launched in September 19th and the world had a bit of a blip at start of 2020. And yeah, there was a few, kind of.

A few hairy years being a young business trying to kind of get moving and growing, so we didn't really have much time and headspace to put to it. But yeah, last year we did 23 and we really hills and then obviously got to work with Uturn, which was awesome and a lot of fun and really like immensely helpful. And yeah, it was. It was a long struggle, but it also.

Kind of gives us a base to kind of. To, you know, a kind of baseline now that we are B Corp to kind of grow from. Do you mean there's lots of areas that, you know, community. We did okay, but like, you know, in governance, but like the environment. And there's definitely areas that we've got to put a bit of. Bit of work into. But that's exciting. Do you. I mean, there's an opportunity in there and we just want to get better and it kind of gives us that, um. Yeah, that ability as well.

Nice. And how about you, Clive? When. When Peter said, hey, I've got this B Corp thing that I want us to do. Had you heard of B Corp or.

Yeah, because I love fixing fog. Peanut butter.

Nice.

So that's where I first saw it, you know, and. And I was a bit intrigued. But now when Peter started bringing it up at the table and it was definitely something that seemed like a big deal to achieve, like a good thing to achieve, but a big. Quite hard to achieve at the beginning, you know. And it felt like, you know, that we did talk about it, I guess, on and off for a couple of years, didn't we? I'd say Peter and. But Peter was always championing. It was always really, really important to him. And it was important to me because, you know, I understood, once we looked into it, I understood about the other things outside of just the environmental stuff. I really enjoyed the idea of sort of, you know, setting like the blueprint for your business going forward and, you know, like the ideas of having, you know, things in your constitution that were going to make sure that you, you know, you were like, living up to your responsibilities for the environment or social, you know, reasons and things like that. So it became, yeah, very clear that, okay, this is something that really fits with us, you know, and that was never, never in doubt for me. Like, it definitely always fitted for us. I would say then, early days that I wasn't sure about if there was going to be value in it, you know, like, we didn't do it for value, but I liked more so because I'm inorganic, so I'm used to certification and rules, you know. So to me, it made a lot of sense on that level. But I mean, you know, thinking about it, you know, as. As and when we've sort of been doing it over the last couple of years or last year or so, of course there's value in it. There's value in it for yourself, you know, there's value in it for both of us, for our families. There's value in it for the environment. There's value all sorts. And I do, as Peter say, believe that value, actually financial value comes back to you as well. Because people like all of us here, and we're not just B Corp groupies because we're in B Corp, we're that type of person that appreciates that kind of thing. There's lots of people like that out there, you know, and I've been astonished since we've been B Corp, how many people have approached us, you know, sent us emails, you know, Meridian Energy rang me one day. You know, they're like, hey, how are you? So you're B Corp, you know, And I was like, yeah, and also, you know, as you probably know, Meridian Energy are, you know, fully renewable energy and all that and blah, blah. And I said, well, look, we don't have a big facility, and I'm not a winery as such. You know, my electricity bill is 100 bucks a month or whatever. It's not, you know, a big thing, but that was a real sign that, you know, people are trying to make those connections.

Okay.

They're looking for business opportunities and, and, but that's great if the people that care. We're all helping each other out. That's what B Corp's about, right? Business for the future. So, yeah, no, it's. It's been very powerful, to be honest, and I'm really excited. Like, we've just put it on our label this year, obviously. We just. We got certified in about October. September, October. You know, we've now put it on our wine labels. It says B Corp Certified on our front label. We've got the logo on the back label. We haven't taken those wines to market yet because we're still selling last year's, but we're literally just about to. I'm super excited to be able to have a different conversation and have a, you know, like, see where that leads us as well. So, yeah, it's super cool, actually. Really enjoyed it. I mean, some of the, you know, the paperwork stuff wasn't the most enjoyable stuff, but it wasn't actually that onerous. Like, you know, honestly, it was. It was just a lot of small things rather than, like, big things. So.

It also. The thing that we also love about, I think, is the snowball effect in the sense that, you know, when you're looking at your customers, it's going to your glass supplier or label supplier and being like, cool. Tell me about, you know, the board. Tell me about your business. Tell me about your environmental and recycling program. Tell me what you're doing to improve, you know, how many EV cars, all of those things. And starting those conversations with those businesses makes them think about what they're doing, and it gets them kind of reviewing their processes and what they're implementing. And, you know, you're continually talking to people about it and bringing it front of mind for people so that they can make better decisions or consider things at the. At the least. Right. And, and, and that's, I think, really, really powerful. And that's where I think that kind of momentum can build from as well. So, yeah, you just don't know what tentacles kind of, you know, had to change.

I totally. I think, yeah, The B Corp community is a series of, of tails wagging lots of dogs into the extremities of their, of their supply chains. And you know, supply chain pressure is one of the biggest reasons why a lot of companies are looking at B Corp. I mean we even, we started working with a, a spirits company late last year and. Bit similar to yourself. They'd been talking about B Corp for a couple of years but the thing that pushed them over the edge was their European distributor said, look, you really need to have some kind of social or environmental accreditation for you to be competitive in the European market in 2024. He's like, cool, I'm going to pull the trigger on B Corp. Would that, would that be good enough? He said, that's perfect. So they were already, they'd already built the business around a B Corp, kind of bit like yourselves, like in it for the right reasons, building the business around the right, the right thing. But supply chain pressure is the thing that's leading to okay, we need to go get it done.

I think I might know who that is. I won't say but is it a gin producer?

It could be.

It could be.

Yeah. And we've seen you afterwards.

I think I've had conversations with that person. That's awesome.

Right, I'll let you know afterwards.

There's you know like this our UK guys. Sorry, UK importer. You know, it's like oh yeah, cool, you're be caught now. You know there's a couple of supermarkets that have got, you know, sections in their wine department, you know, that are just be caught wines.

Yeah.

Etc, etc. So I think there is growing momentum there and yeah, more people that are able to make conscious choices, you know, as a real positive. Everyone loves.

Yep, totally. Yeah, I think I know Waitrose in the UK they for the last two, two at least, maybe even three years have been part of B Corp month.

Which is in March.

So they, they have done in store promotions, end of aisle. Hey, these are your B Corp brands in this section. So W.H. smith did the same. I don't think they sell booze though in the UK today. But yeah, Waitrose have definitely been, been one of those supermarkets.

So it's gonna be a month is in March. Did you say in March? Yeah.

So yeah, it was funny you talked about the labeling because I know we were having some frantic conversations at the end of your process around you're like, yeah, I really would like to put the B Corp logo and I need to tell the label guy like tomorrow morning at 9:00am yeah, yeah. Still haven't heard back from B lab yet. And I'm like, you can hedge your bets, but if you don't get it, oh, it's gonna be awkward.

But it works out fine in the end, fortunately.

Yeah, yeah, of course, it's a. We only bottle, like, you know, we bottle once, possibly twice a year. And to go another whole year without it, all that work. Yeah, it would have been a shame. It wasn't necessity, do you know what I mean? But it was like you wanted.

Yeah, you want it either. Just. Just get your kids with some little purple markers.

Show me who's good at drawing bees. Come on.

Literally.

As long as we don't end up with those bloody stickers that all those wine producers put all those gold medals on the wine labels and they'll be like one that says B Corp, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Buy a pack of 100 B corp badges. Yeah. To put on you.

Yeah, yeah. Just throw them on, whatever you want.

Super cool. Yeah, I think it'd be. It's gonna be really interesting to hear your feedback. Maybe we do a short update later in the year once you've had some of those conversations with your global distributors to see. See how that goes. Yeah. I think you're clearly. You've clearly got that ability to craft.

That story, though, and.

And so I think you'll be able to.

Yeah.

Make use of it. I think it just gives that depth to the story that you've already got around. You know, not only is our wine produced in a manner that, you know, it's ethical, sustainable, environmentally conscious, but we run our business in that way as well. So it's kind of like you're a truth. Yeah, yeah, super cool.

So you obviously only a few months into your B corp, but what were the areas that you were kind of when you went through the assessment? Like, oh, okay, yeah, we might need to have a think about that one. In terms of looking to the future for your next certification.

The customer section was where we did quite poorly, to be honest.

Strange. How do you put this? The environment was okay.

Yeah.

And. And governance was okay as well.

Yeah.

You know, the community was strong. Yeah. You know, we've got lots of. Lots of room to grow. Lots of, lots of. There's a decent list of things that we want to implement. To be transparent. We haven't really put much thought to it since last October. Do you mean it's fair enough?

Christmas and New Year.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It'S good. Yeah. Sorry, you go.

No, I was going to say, and I think it was really good as we went through the process. And, you know, you probably start off with 100 points or 120 points, you know, something like that. And then as you get further into the thing, you start to realize you're losing a few points here and there, you know, as things get verified and, you know, and to end up, you know, just to be certified was fantastic, of course. But, you know, like, just during that process, there was a lot of things that came that were highlighted during that. It's like, okay, it doesn't take much to do a little bit more here and a little bit more here. You know, now we're not ready for that right now because we would just want to get this over the line, you know. And also we know we've got a commitment to improve every three years, of course, which we're really excited by. So. Yeah, it's hard to say exactly. I get with, to me, the environment one, I thought we would do better in, to be honest. But then we don't have staff, we don't have, like, our own actual environment, you know, our own vineyard and that sort of stuff like that. And also, I think the first year, you know, you have, you. You like, you set it pretty low and then you'll start to add things on as you go. And I think that you. I feel it's going to be quite easy for us and those famous last words to increase that score. But I really do, you know, for example, I, you know, we do some consultancy with organics with other people to help them, lead them into the. Into the organic, you know, viticultural winemaking as well. You know, we'll offer that as a service. And that wasn't able to be, you know, accounted for in our. In our first assessment, you know, and all of that. So, you know, those sorts of things. I feel quite confident about adding it on. And yeah, we're not driven by getting a massive score. We just want to improve every three years.

Yeah, yeah. I think it's fair to say you. You kind of fell between a couple of stalls in terms of just how you're. Because we initially, because I'm trying to remember now, we. I think we had you down as wholesale retail, because that's kind of what you do. But then you.

And then we moved to agriculture because.

Of the quirks of the. The B corp assessment, and particularly because there's not that many wineries. Yeah, you got moved into the agricultural sector, which wasn't perhaps the. The truest. So people listening, there's Some. There's some specific requirements around like percentage of product that you sell or manufacture or do you warehouse it. There's like some real nuances which can dictate whether you end up being in. Yeah, wholesale retail or manufacturing or agriculture grower. And so yeah, you mainly, you guys are a sales and marketing wholesale retail outfit. But by work of the system, you kind of got thrown into the agricultural growers one, which, yeah, probably meant you got some questions that were harder for you to answer because you're not in control of. Of the. But anyway.

But it all worked out fine, you know. Yeah, like, like it was really helpful, you know, like people were really helpful yourself and Daniel and you know, like it. Yeah, it was a good process.

Nice.

It was a relief.

Yeah.

We're in. Yeah. Year one. Just get certified and then build from there. Yeah. Yes. Nice. So what does the future look like then for. For deep down, what's. What's on the cards of 2024? New Year, New you and all that. You know, what's going on. Pete's obviously not. Not changing his haircut despite we.

He hasn't cut his hair yet. That's a shame. There's no progression there.

We're excited to launch a new wine as well this year, which is something that's really fun and really fits into like the whole ethos of our business, which is it's called Deep Down Blanc. It's not very like, you know, it's. It's a wine that's a sort of a blend of three different grape varieties, one of which is red. So Pinot Noir, Chardonnay and Sauvignon. A blend and like. And it wasn't just, let's pick up these bits of wine and throw them together and make a new wine. It was like, real thoughtful and it's been planned for a year and so we're excited to take a new story out at the same time with that. It's limited release. It always gets the markets frothing a little bit. You know, when a new thing comes out that's unique, it helps to kind of like, you know, keep the energy around your business. Although it won't be the biggest wine that we sell in the year for sure. Like Sauvignon Blanc is going to be, you know, 50 times bigger in terms of volume or whatever. So that's really exciting. It's really exciting to have the story about B Corp, to be honest, because we, you know, we, we've sent out a mail chimp to all of our customers and told them Etc but to sit down with the people on the front line and have the conversation like that's that almost pyramid scheme thing happening again where you go out and we're going to talk to like the entire decent wine industry about B Corp and like you know, those are going to, questions are going to come back. So that's, that's something that's really exciting for us and we've been talking to them a little bit about it but now we can point it out, explain the bottle, you know, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, I think for last year was a pretty tough year on a lot of fronts for everybody and we're excited with the new start this year and the new wine and yeah, the B Corp launch and all that sort of stuff. So that's pretty much what you know, we're going to try and do. We're trying to expand our markets still overseas. Peter's. That's what Peter does. What you know, and we've, we're happy to say that we're exporting some wine to South Korea shortly, hopefully in Japan as well. New markets there. So yeah, it's, it's onwards, you know, onwards and upwards hopefully.

And the season, the growing season is going really well. So the grapes are looking, or the violence so you know, looking healthy and everything's looking balanced and potential crop is looking, you know, kind of not too small. Big A. Balanced again is probably the word. And as long as we have a good run to the easy end of the season, we could be up for some, you know, like absolutely stellar grapes and then delicious wine. So that is, yeah, touch wood on the, on the agenda.

Yeah.

24.

Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, sounds like it's all happening and so sorry, I was just going to.

Say, you know, like we make the best wines we can every year but when you don't have a toolbox of, you know, 70 different ingredients or additions you can add.

You know, when you look packing the grapes and putting them into a bottle rather than being able to, you know, make a big and make it consistent, it's quite a different. Yeah approach for us.

So good. So, so healthy growing seasons are always welcomed.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, you'd be doing your rain dances and your sun dances at the appropriate moments throughout the year and hoping that it all goes your way. And so for people that want to try some deep down wine, where can, can they buy it from you guys directly or what's the best way to get hold of some?

We, we sell direct to people. If they email us, we don't have E Commerce on the website yet. Watch the space. We also have a few retailers around the country. I mean Auckland by the Bottle does a good job. Bit of Caro's Point wine, organic wine store. Yeah, Faro. But we're about 98 of our business is restaurant trade. So we're in. Lucky to say that we're in lots of places and Tamakimikoro down in Tauranga, Mount Manganui, Hamilton, you know, Wellington, etc. So lots of. Yeah, really, we love working with small, passionate owner operator restaurants. Yeah, that's, you know, with me and Clive have both worked in restaurants in the past, you know, like many, many moons ago. And we both got a deep interest in food. You know, we grow grown vegetables and, and are both passionate cooks. Not say that we're good cooks, but passionate cooks. And, and yeah, we love that kind of restaurant environment and, and the people that work in there are usually really passionate about what they do. The sourcing, especially small places, you know, and, and wines as well. Do you know what I mean? Like that. They love that kind of, that, that side of hospitality and so working with them, lots of them become friends and, and, and yeah, we're lucky to be well represented in restaurants around the country. So you'll see them.

So if you go, if you're going out for dinner, having listened to this, ask the, the waiter or the Soma. I'd like deep down, please. And if they don't have it, then say we need to ring Pete and Clive and get on your wine list, please.

Yeah. And so our website is www.deep down wines.co.co nz. But yeah, yeah, I'm always thinking the UK, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah, it's sort of split. Yeah, that constant challenge of being split between two, two worlds. Yeah, fun times. Well, that's super cool. Thanks guys for, for popping on for an episode of the podcast. Yeah, I just, I like hanging out with you. You too. You make me laugh. You're right. Like the Two Ronnies or Hale and Pace. There we go. We're getting really old school British comedy now.

Maybe.

Dumb and Dumber. Yeah, no, I just, I love what you're doing. You have a great tasting wine. You were very gracious in sending me a bottle of your, of your Pinot Noir, which was super tasty. Yeah, just, you're just another cool little business trying to make a little dent into the universe. Do some cool stuff, change up some things and do it in a really cool way. So go you. And yes, if everyone out there, if you're looking for a nice wine to try deep down. Give it a go. What could. What could possibly go wrong? Nothing.

Thanks for the kind words, mate. It means a lot. That's exactly how we see ourselves, to be fair.

So I think I'd say you're pretty. Pretty open and transparent.

We certainly are.

Yeah. Thanks, Tim. That's hugely. Appreciate it, mate. It's been really cool to, I don't know, connect, work together and hang out as well. It's been a lot of laughs. So, yeah, I hope you have an awesome year as well. You certainly deserve it. So, yeah, 24, I reckon.

Yeah, no, we. We finished up last year pretty well and things are looking pretty exciting already for 2024, so I need a holiday from. My holiday to prepare myself for the onslaught that's about to happen uphill. So, yeah, yeah.

Thanks very much.

Catch you soon.

Cheers, mate.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.