#86 Lucy Butler and her unconscious connection to meaning and purpose

Hello, Kia ora shimai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Thank you as always to our regular listeners, both of you, possibly maybe all three of you by now, who knows? As I am frequently saying at the beginning of the podcast, I listen to some very big podcasts with millions of dollars of production value and even they beg for likes and subscribes. So I don't feel bad begging myself. So if you're listening and you haven't liked, subscribed or given us some feedback, please do that because it would be good to know what you want more of and how we're generally doing. Without further ado, I will introduce today's guest. We have the amazing, the awesome, Lucy Butler from Health Post. Hey Lucy, how's it going?

Yoda? Thanks, Tim. Yeah, thanks for having me on going on.

No worries.

Thank you.

And you are dialing in from the top of the south island in New Zealand.

Yes, absolutely. Yep. Now here in Moho Golden Bay and our Health Post hub here in Collingwood, population 200. So yeah and it's gorgeous here today. We've got the sun streaming in and yeah, no, very nice.

A beautiful part of the world for we do have international listeners. Viewers. So yeah, if you haven't made it to the top of the south island in New Zealand, it is one of. Yeah, I mean the south. We'll probably say the south island is more beautiful than the North Island. Sorry north island listeners. But in the whole place is pretty beautiful. But yeah, top of the top of the Southland is pretty special.

So it is, it's pretty spectacular. Yeah. Yeah. And it's definitely part of who we are and how we do what we do. I guess, you know, deep ties to this, this region which I guess we'll get into probably further on in the conversation.

Indeed. Yeah. So for people who don't know, Lucy Butler, don't know Health Post, who are you and tell us what, what you're about.

Sure. So we. Health Post is a leading online retailer of natural health and wellbeing. So I've been around for 35, almost 36 years. The business was founded by my mum back in 1988 as she was sort of struggling with.

Her health and various fronts and wanting to look at plant medicines and, and supplements and superfoods and things to help to heal her, her gut and her overall well being and being based here in Collingwood as she was where we have a large purpose built premises here. Now I'm actually sitting in our, our wellness room currently but it's all still only A stone's throw from where the business was founded in the basement of Mum's home. Home when we were kids. Yeah. My brother Abel's now CEO of the business and I am the values lead. So it's still very much in the family. Still family owned. Yeah. But at the inception was Mum's desire to access these products and in the late 80s in rural New Zealand, that actually was easier said than done. You know, they're very expensive. They actually were not accessible. You know, largely this is all obviously pre online shopping and that sort of thing. And Natural health in itself was a smaller, much smaller and more niche market in New Zealand at that time. So she started ordering barley grass originally in bulk and discovered that other people were sharing the same issue of accessibility and also affordability. It was very expensive because it was a lot less competitive. Yeah. And so she started weighing it out, divvying it up around the community and Health Post really grew from there and for many years really grew off the back of the tenacity of rural women, really, Mum included. And yeah, really spread through word of mouth, no advertising. It was all mail order at that stage. Really. Yeah. Pretty grassroots, Pretty grassroots beginnings, but really weirded in the purpose that we still hold true to today, which is to help people live naturally healthy lives, you know, and the products that. That Mum was accessing, my mother Linley at the time really did transform her. Her health. She did, she was able to heal herself. And so I think that propelled as well her desire to continue to, to do the work that she'd never imagined herself doing and to continue to share that with others.

Yeah, it's super cool backstory. It's. Yeah. When you, when you kind of try and delve into the origin stories of companies and. Or if people, you know, are kind of looking to reconnect to their purpose as an organization, like going back to first principles again, why were we founded? And I think it is, it's really interesting the number of B corps that I've interviewed on here, or we, I've just, I just know where they were founded by someone who's like, I'm genuinely trying to solve a real problem here as opposed to, I think in the modern world of startups, particularly tech startup, to the whole kind of unicorn. Let's, let's. Let's invent a needle that we can then solve that need. But really it's not really a need. My favorite one to poke fun out there is pooch selfie, which is like a piece of plastic that you connect to the Top of your phone that holds a tennis ball so you can get a better selfie with your dog. It's kind of like, does the world really need that? Whereas, you know, I'm struggling with my health that has massive, you know, anyone who's got even a minor health issue, you know, we know how that affects your performance as a adult child. Human parent.

Absolutely.

Sister, whatever, you know, whatever you are. Yeah, yeah. So it's really cool to just see how that. I think also you remind me or the story reminds me. Do you know Perry Drysdale from Untouched World?

Yes. And look, I listened to your wonderful interview with her just yesterday actually. Tim. Yeah, I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that conversation.

Similar kind of vibe. Just like rural mum who's not going to take any, you know, not going to take no for an answer and I'm just going to give this a go and see what happens.

Absolutely. Yeah, I thought that too as I was listening to the conversation actually. Yeah, it reminded me of that same spirit again. South island too.

Don't mess with a South Island.

Yeah, that's right. Just very independent minded, you know, independent thinkers. Used to fixing things themselves. Not used to kind of giving their power away to external sources of authority particularly easily, you know, actually just kind of working it out and being pretty open minded about how that they approach that, you know, and, and we still have, you know, strong connections within the rural community and the advocacy certainly is foundational for us. And I think being based here, just to your point earlier too, like continuing to be based here in the small rural community and continuing to be family owned and having our mum, that relationship very sort of live and real as well. There's this immediate accountability all the time to the decisions and their wider impacts. And that's part of what we loved when we discovered B Corp because it was a way of, it was a way of a language and a framework for expressing that. In a way it felt really familiar to us too for all that we learned a huge amount through that process in terms of international best practice, things we hadn't thought about and that journey continues. But also it really resonated for us at that level of, that we, we just feel accountable to all of these stakeholders because we're so deeply rooted in the sense of, of place, you know, and we can again, I'm sure this will unfold through the conversation, but community, environment, customer stewardship, you know, that's, it's really feels, it's kind of in the DNA of the business through that, that foundational, you know, story and how that's carried, that's carried through. You know, it's just we, I think for both my brother Abel and I, you know, we'll, we'll feel and know very quickly if we stray off, if we stray from that Purpose Vision values piece, you know, it's, we're going to get some very real time feedback about that. You know, on lots of levels. I think that's actually been really, been really good.

It'd be interesting to almost do a bit of a study. I wonder what percentage of B corps are family owned businesses because just, just thinking around even just some of the New Zealand community, you know, in terms of like the standard business world it. I don't know, I don't know whether B Lab could even run that stat or whether that's even captured.

But yeah, it's a really interesting point.

I can think of.

Yeah.

And whether there is something around that connection to yeah, genuine family values as opposed to quite often, you know, as corporations get bigger and the values are maybe bought in by a marketing consultant rather than actually what goes on on the day to day and people aren't actually held, held accountable to it. It's a bit different when you've got to front up to your mum at the end of the day and go yeah, actually I didn't, I didn't do what I said I was going to do.

That's right, that's right, exactly. It is, it is. And also yeah, our father is a major, you know, shareholder of the business and has been for some time. The same thing. If we want something cool, you know, something that is values based, something that's an investment. Yes, we do have an independent board of directors but really like we could, you know, it's, it's a matter of getting dad on board in the first instance, you know, and, and because yeah again those values are shared. You know, he's passionate about conservation and you know, does incredible work in that space so you know, it's not hard to get him on board with cool. With cool stuff with Zero Carbon and we founded the Health Post Nature Trust leading some awesome, you know, landscape regeneration project here in Moho Golden Bay as well. And he was instrumental in that. So again you feel really lucky. I think. I can't. I can only imagine it's a lot more complex, you know, there's a lot more layers and organizations where that you don't have that immediate ability to kind of communicate and connect on, on these levels.

But also possibly makes Christmas dinner a bit tricky when, well my mom makes you Gonna do that.

About 10 years ago, mum just absolutely banned business talk at her kitchen table. She was like, no, no, no more, no more. That's different conversations. So, yeah, keeping those lines clear is something that we've got. Gone better at, I think, over the years because it does put pressure on relationships too. You know, you're never going to see as much as those, those values are shared. You're never going to see eye to eye on every single piece. And we, and we occupy different roles within the business necessarily, too. So, you know, yeah, we. We may each be arguing our corner for different, different things. And, yeah, rightly, Mum preferred fur. That didn't happen over Christmas, did it?

Yes, but then it brings up that time when Abel didn't let you play with the train set.

Yeah, this is, this is it. This is it.

Things can devolve quickly, Tim. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, it's true. Because, I mean, I, When I was sort of straight out of uni, I started the business with my dad and a friend of mine from school and quickly realized that there was no separation between, you know, parent relationship and work relationship. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing, you know, straight out of university. But, you know, my dad was. He could only ever see me as the child and wouldn't necessarily admit that any of my ideas might have, you know, any, any. Any legs. And I remember we, we took a mutual friend of ours, he was another dad who, you know, who through school, and he was a senior partner at Grant Thornton, you know, global accounting firm. And we went for a beer with him and I said, right, you know, Ed, this is, this is the situation. These, these are the two solutions. Which one do you think would be a better one? And he chose mine. And I just kind of felt like, you know, mic drop, you know, actually, you know, I do know some stuff, but, yeah, just that we really struggle to blur. I mean, we had a tricky relationship at the best of times and so, yeah, bringing that just 24, seven. And then, yeah, so I, I just, I had to walk away from it in the end.

Yeah, no, it definitely isn't all smooth sailing. And I think, I guess we're at a size now where we can, to some extent, you know, we can, we can choose where we're working together, where we know that's going to work well also work together for a really long time. You know, so we can choose where we, where we collaborate and where we, you know, work in different. In different aspects of the business. So I think that's yeah, we've got. Yeah, that's right. And we've got offices up in Auckland and you know, we've sort of have. Have team based up there and things. So we've got quite a bit of. Got a bigger canvas.

Yeah.

So, you know, clearly very, very values driven. But for your mum, like, do you know, kind of where those, those values came from is like, was she always a values driven person or was it, you know, the inception of the business, you know, was there anything through that that could mean to solve the health problem? She had, you know, you could have gone down a pharmaceutical route, she could have gotten fed, but, you know, you went down a natural health route. So. Yeah. Where does, where does that kind of heritage come from? Is it. It seems like it's in the DNA.

Is what I. Yeah, yeah, great question. I think she is a very independent thinker, I think. Always has been, you know, from, you know, working class, you know, reasonably, reasonably poor upbringing and you know, just had to be creative. They had to be creative in how they met their needs as a family. Yeah. And I think she just has a really inquiring mind actually. And I think that's a huge part of coming, you know, and I think that's a thread that's run through the business and continues to as well. It's that it's asking, as came up in your conversation with Perry Tim, you know, none of these things are straightforward. You know, it's about being curious and asking the questions and doing the research and those are the kind of things that Mum, you know, really just not taking the received line on things. And I think a passion for plants actually in plant medicine too is. I mean, I was thinking about that this morning. I was out at home planting a couple of pudiri trees on our, on our property at home. And you know, my brother spends any spare minute he has planting trees on, on his property. My dad, still, he's 70 now, spends every weekend out planting trees. You know, Mum's got a spectacular vegetable garden. You know, I think that love of plants and that connectedness to nature as well. So a combination of that independent critical thinking and, and inquiry and, you know, and a real connection to plants and a real respect for nature and its healing, its healing capacities. Probably the, the two sort of foundational pieces, I think, for Mum's values there. And also. No, sorry, I miss a piece actually, because the human. And when I think it like the. In the first few years of the business too, you know, a lot of this was being conducted, you know, when she was working from home and we were all young, you know, we're sort of eight, nine year olds, you know, and running around and.

Yeah, she had, my youngest brother was a baby still as well at that stage. So you know, she was trying to transition from what was the domestic purposes benefit then to, to a sustainable income, which she obviously did and ended up creating an income for a whole lot of other people as well. But through that process, like her empathy, her actual human empathy is another as a, is a huge piece in terms of that value system not performed empathy. You know, like I was thinking, trying to think of how to express that difference actually when I was thinking about this yesterday, you know, we, we're so steeped in that empathetic language now and kind of performances of relatability and things like that. Whereas Mum never, Mum never had that. But she'd be having some really kind of gritty conversation over dinner with the sort of, you know, the portable phone propped under her shoulder or on, you know, under a year with someone about their, their bowel health or their whatever. You know, she'd be really listening, really asking questions. If they couldn't afford the product that she thought they needed, she'd open the bottle up, take out some, send them to them or pop the product in for free. You know, she really connected with people at that. It still does, you know, but in terms of as in the foundation of the business, you know, at that level of just really listening and really caring and I think that's been a huge amount of what created that goodwill that the business was able to grow from too. So yeah, those three strands, I think for me.

Nice. Yeah, I mean it's, it's easy to sense when someone's genuinely caring versus yeah, I'm kind of pretending to care in the hope that maybe you come back and pay me.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean it kind of, it's interesting because yeah, you look at how the business was established and almost unwittingly it was, you know, it was a B corp almost from day one in terms of how. Going about it, you know, just the idea of looking after people and planet. Yeah. So.

Just, it's really cool. Yeah, getting, just getting behind the sort of the creation myth story of some of these brands because yes, you've got your About Us section on your website but you know, you go to the website, you look around, there's some great products on there. It's still hard to get that connection without actually talking to the humans behind it. And yeah, having that, that's right where it came from, which I think is. It's a challenge. It's a tricky thing for businesses because in an increasing world of poor competition and I guess, you know, in the retail space everyone's generally trying to find the cheapest product necessary, you know, rather than, you know, the best supplier. Always. I mean that there's certainly evidence that increasingly, you know, people are wanting to support the companies that do care. Which is why we're seeing a rise of B Corp. But yeah, in an online retail environment, to be able to quickly convey that depth of passion and empathy versus, you know, big box online retailer who genuinely just doesn't care. They're just trying to make as much money as possible.

That's right. That's right. And whilst the purpose and values have stayed true throughout that 35 year journey, you know, the, the challenges and the place, the role that we have to play in that has changed so much. You know, the world has changed so much in that time. Obvious but you know, so affordability and accessibility are not, not the issues that, that they were in the 80s. You know, we can get cheap supplements in the supermarket or anywhere, you know, so over the last sort of 10 years particularly we've been so focused on applying those values and that purpose to well, what does that look like? What is the need now? You know, and it really is much more around connecting people with, to what you're saying, you know, businesses that are actually doing things better because we're a ret. Know we have hundreds of other brands with 6,000 plus products so and really rigorous range standards and we put a lot of energy into both research and relationships with our brand partners. We have a lot of B Corp, a growing number. We'd love to see more within our supply supplier brands and people can find those on our website. So invest in the technology and the customer experience to help make that information accessible so people can filter our range by B Corp as well as a range of other values, you know, such as, you know, carbon neutral and vegan and whatever, whatever else, you know, that people might want to filter the range by. So yeah, the really the, I guess the problem that we're trying to solve at this stage and have been on this, this journey for some time is really around yeah how people know they're getting a better product, how they, how they have, you know, access to transparent information. You know, we have full product, full ingred ingredients lists for all products on our website. Those ingredients are all vetted by naturopaths, you know and that's not even, it's not, it's not mandatory to, to give full ingredients listings for supplements. Somewhat bizarrely in, in New Zealand. So you know, like there's just, there's a lot. And also obviously, as many are aware, it's an industry fairly rife with greenwashing too. So you know, there's a lot of work to be done in, in connecting people with the products and, and the brands that are really doing things. Just not always that easy to tell actually without doing quite a bit of behind the scenes research. And as individual consumers, even conscious consumers, we don't have the time to be doing that with every single product that we buy. So as a retailer, that's really where we see our value is in doing that, doing that legwork for our customers. And of course what that means, how that expresses is changing all the time as these conversations evolve. The values don't change, the purpose doesn't change, but the way that it expresses has to keep, has to keep evolving as new research comes to light, as people key into different issues. You know, we're constantly learning, not afraid to acknowledge that we made a mistake or to change our minds as new research becomes available, you know, it's a constant conversation with our supply partners and with our customers as well. And again, drawing that line back to the.

Business roots, you know, and mum's approach, that's how it always was. You know, the range, her range, what she sold, grew in active conversation with her customers, you know, and in a way we're still doing that, but the conversations are more squarely focused now on these kind of ethical issues of, you know, well, where do we, we've just recently discontinued krill products from our range as an example. You know, we did when we launched our marine sustainability policy about six, five or six years ago now. Krill was considered, you know, we did a lot of independent analysis, commissioned independent research. Krill was considered one of the more sustainable sources of Omega, you know, omega 3 supplement category. For us it has very real health benefits. You know, some people really need it to be. Well, we all need it but you know, some people need to supplement it. Krill is a way that people do that. It was, it received, you know, a better bill of health sustainability wise, five or six years ago. And then, you know, in the last six months we've really come, you know, come across and again through customers as well and bringing our attention to research that, you know, indicates specific detrimental impacts that are to do with how krill is being fished now. You know, the practices have Changed climate impacts, you know, that it's impacting vulnerable species in Southern Ocean in a way that wasn't, you know, wasn't publicized in the same way, you know, five or six years ago. So we've gone out to our suppliers, we've gone out to our customers, we've had these conversations and, you know, have made that change and really tried to bring those, those groups along, I think quite successfully. You know, even those people that have been buying that product from us are like, well, I'm so pleased that you've done this research. Thank you for letting us know. You know, and we're increasingly, you know, promoting great vegan alternatives which again, have been, you know, through algae based supplementation. That's come a really long way in the last five years as well. So again, just kind of a topical example, I guess, of how these things are. You know, we just, we're never going to go out with a final position or, or a perfect statement on any of these areas, particularly not with such a good product range. You know, there's just always more work to be done.

That for me is the overarching opinion that I've come to having been doing this podcast for a while and working with a bunch of B corpses. It is not black and white, that there is no black and white. It is massive shades of gray in the middle where you, you, you know, and, and Perry was a, we'll double down on her episode as well. You know, hers was a great example where they moved to biodegradable bags for shipping their products. But then they did the research and realized actually they weren't as good an outcome as the plastic bags that they now had an auction on. So they swapped them out. They had a whole bunch of complaints from their customers, but they said this is the reasoning behind it. And then the customers are like, okay, okay, we see it, we get it. And I think that's for people who are, you know, I guess, curious about B Corp or even just wanting to do more good. I think one of the things that stops a lot of people is, yes, but we can't be perfect. Therefore we don't want to attempt doing it because we know that, you know, the letters to the editor will say, yes, but you, you're not doing this. Or what about Krill? You know, you haven't done that. And it's like, well, it is constantly moving. It's, it's really, really hard. But I think what we see most B Corps doing is, is actually being actively interested in wanting, you know, which is why, like for me, we call our coaching program to help people get B Corp certified. We call it Be better, just aim to be better. But it's un, it's very. There might be 1/32 time in your business when you reach perfection and everything is just brilliant, but then some more research will come in and go, actually, no, that bit's wrong. Need to update it. And so the key though is to have that, have that desire to want to know that you're doing the right thing. And I think that's what really sets, you know, B Corps and business for good in general is because you're that heart centered, purpose driven, values based on least. Actually, we, we care enough. Whereas if you're a big box retailer, it's like, yeah, okay, well we might, we, you know, I would hazard to guess that they, a lot of those retailers probably do know about the environmental damage of Krill, but they just look at the bottom line and go, yeah, but if we stop selling that, we're going to lose a ton of cash.

So, yeah, it's, it's so interesting, Tim. That's, that's right. And I think, you know, we tend to underestimate people's receptivity to these conversations. Like, we're pleasantly surprised again and again when we go out to customers with a complex issue, when we go to, even with our suppliers and even those that are supplying these products and we say, hey guys, you know what? Can you give us any data to assure us that these are really sustainable? And they're like, yeah, maybe kind of not like, okay, well, we're gonna, we're gonna stop. You know, this is just. And not because we're saying it's bad or it's terrible or everyone should stop taking it, but just because, because we're actually really active through the health post Nature Trust in the space of coastal and marine conservation, you know, so for us there's a values mismatch there, you know, and that's all we're saying. And if you frame the conversation in that way, they're like, okay, cool. Yep, we see that. We see that it's not a good fit for you. Respect your decision. Good on you for leading with your values, you know, and we've seen that through. Certainly, like we have a real leadership position ethically in the natural products industry in Aotearoa now. And it really is built more as much as on all the good stuff we've done on the hard conversations that we've had. You know, we've deleted a lot of products for A lot of reasons in the last 10 years, you know, including a lot of really popular products, products that sell well. So in every time we do that, you know, we have the Krills just the latest example. You know, I've done it on basis of preservatives and all manner of other things. Again, as information has come to light, you're taking something away from people that they used to buying. You're telling them there's the problem they didn't know was there. No one enjoys either of those things. And you a conversation with a supply partner where, you know, you're telling them their products not up to scratch. But actually all of those things and really I think the hard conversations ahead of anything else is what has built that respect and that trust both within the industry here and also with our customers and with our team. You know, like we've these moments are some of the things that when we talk to our team, you know, that that's what they're most proud of is seeing working for a business that they see because they're at the front line of rolling out these decisions, you know, as well, they see that we're putting our values ahead of short term profit and that's just really powerful. And they don't even need to share those values specifically. Maybe they don't have a problem with that preservative or the chemical sunscreen or the Krill oil, you know, personally, but they still care that we care, you know, and I think that's, you know, that's the kind of, whenever I get the opportunity, I try and communicate that to other businesses because I think you think you, you know, when you're having the hard conversation, you're upsetting people, you're taking something away, but done in the right way. You know, no one wants someone getting on their soapbox obviously and waving their finger at them. But you know, done in the right way, I think it really, really puts those relationships in a better place.

I totally agree. And that's my working theory as to why I think B Corps are more resilient in tough economic times. And there's some recent data from the pandemic that demonstrates that. And there was some other data collected post global financial crisis to show that B Corps were more resilient. And I think it's exactly that. Because you have better, you have better, more frequent and grown up conversations with your key stakeholders and they trust you and they want. Yeah, I think taking, taking a stand on something that, I mean it also ties into, you know, I guess the, the concept of the theory of the commons, you know, if, if we can keep, if you keep just, you know, over farming or overfishing krill and it's creating a negative environmental impact at some point that becomes completely destructive and there is no krill. But there's also probably knock on effects with other species that some you can think of, others are unimaginable right now. So it's actually not in anyone's long term interest to maybe keep pursuing this. So we've, we've identified this early but we've got a solution and I think most grow, most grown up people of which which hopefully there's some out there in the universe still would look at that and go actually this is just really smart. And like I say, if you convey that in the right manner and it's not accusatory and it's, I mean because technically you've been part of the problem by selling it anyway.

So you know, totally.

It's not like you can go, you bad consumers. It's like, yeah, but you've been selling it to us. So yeah, you know, having it in a collaborative manner to say, hey look. And I think also that the leadership position that you're taking by going, look, we're the ones who are identifying this, this, not the people farming it, not the, you know, not anyone else. It's like because we feel that sense of responsibility again it all ties back to that sense of contribution and purpose. Remember, we only want to provide you as our customer with the best product that solves your health requirements but is done so in a manner that's, you know, going to work for people and planet long term. So yeah, I think that, that to me is a great example of, of why you're successful because, because you are doing that.

Yeah, I think that that's right and that that willingness to continually keep revisiting these things, you know, and to have another layer sort of unpeeled for you because you know, we're all learning along the way with it. And I think, yeah, just not being too proud to do that. And again, it really helps when you're, as you say, in the habit of having those conversations because you haven't gone out in the first place. We didn't launch our marine sustainability policy, say this is the final word at all. We were like, look, we've got this research done, made the report, the entire, you know, 50 page report or whatever it was, you know, available on our website. Customers could have a look at the research. We're basing our decisions on, you Know what certifications we choose, chosen to accept in respect of sustainability, which ones. We hadn't just made all of that really available. So it's like, well, this is, this is what we're basing our current position on. You have our word that we will keep revisiting this. And the packaging is another great example. You know, like we're using and have done for, for some time, paper based, you know, recycled paper based packaging, Jiffy's that use, you know, post consumer waste and things. But when we went, when we started using those maybe five or six years ago, we did a lot of research again, asked a lot of questions. The compostables were really big at this stage. They seem to have been blazing. We kept getting sent. These examples are emblazoned made made by made from plants. And I was like, hold on. But I started looking into it. I was like, but, but nothing meets the home compostable standard unless it's at least half petrochemical byproduct because it doesn't break down fast enough unless it has this petrochemical byproduct. So these bags that are saying that they're made from plants are made at best from half cornstarch. And then if you ask, well, where's that being grown? What are the environmental impacts of growing that input for this bag? You get a blank look from the person who's trying to sell you the bag that's like, well, this, we're just going to hold off on this because, you know, and again, like people would be asking us, similar to Perry's experience, you know, why aren't you using the compostables? Also, like, like I mentioned before, Tim, we're super keen gardeners. I looked at these. I actually really looked. I was like, can I put this in my compost? Like, nah.

But I actually want to eat the tomatoes.

Yeah, I don't want to put it in my compost. And so I asked some of my, my teammates, you know, who are keen gardeners, would you put this in your compost? I'll tell you exactly what its composition is. But you put it now, like, yeah, nah.

Okay, well that's decision made. You know, we're not gonna sell something as home compostable that we ourselves wouldn't put in our, in our compost. You know, that's not, this doesn't really work.

But yeah, but look, when we, when we said these are the reasons we're sticking with these paper jiffies, but we're also really aware from a carbon perspective, you know, they've got a, they've got a big footprint. They're manufactured in Australia using largely coal powered plants. So you know, when we brought those bags and we said look, this is a transitional, you know, the technology, packaging technology is evolving and evolving and we just got to be keeping abreast of that. We don't think compostables are the answer but we also know this isn't the answer either, you know, because they're getting shipped in from Australia, getting made using non renewable energy. So just being upfront about that. So now we're revisiting it again, you know, now 84 apparently the packaging forum informed me, you know last week of New Zealanders have access to soft plastics recycling. So it's like okay, well is it time to rel at you know, a much smaller carbon footprint bag? You know the fellow B caught better packaging do ocean bound salvaged plastic. So we're just looking at that now and investigate, you know. And again it's just that every few years going back, going through the process again, asking the questions again, you know, it's the same in all of these different areas but it's an, that's investment, you know, that taste. You've got to pay, pay people to do that time. Got to really value it and then you've got to be able to reach the customers that really value that. But I think to your resiliency point, you know, like we've the, the natural health and wellbeing market and Aotearo as you might be aware has been blitzed by Chemist Warehouse. You know, there's just especially been quite a sad time to be in this space because a lot of good retailers have gone out of business, you know, in the last three or four years since Chemist Warehouse kind of rampaged and continues to through the New Zealand market. So you know we are holding. It's hard, it's tough times. We're having to work really, really hard. But I think our, the fact that we've been able to hold our position is so, so greatly based on this values based, you know, the depth of those values based commitments and the fact that we were really well underway with so many of these conversations when, when the Aussie giant Chemist warehouse came into New Zealand. You know, so if we hadn't have had that, that you know, really B Corp, even though we weren't a B Corp at that point, really B Corp aligned approach, you know, we may well have fallen by the wayside like so many, so many others, you know, in the last two or three years. So Yeah, I think, again, it just, it just sharpens our sense of how important it is to be.

Committing to these kinds of areas.

Nice.

Yeah.

I think for me, that. What, what sums it up. I believe the guy's name was James W. Frick, and I think he was the vice president of Alumni affairs at Notre Dame University. I know that that's what his job title was. I can't remember. I'm pretty sure that was his name. And he's got a really great quote. He said, don't tell me what your values are. Show me where you spend your money. And I think that sums it up because you can have all the values written on the wall and all the rest of it, but it's, it's actually in your actions, it's what you commit to that really articulates whether you're doing it or not. And again, this is what I just think. Companies like yours, you know, you kind of cut you in half, you're bleeding with a B in the middle. It's like, yeah, all the way through to the core. You know, you do it, you genuinely, you know, with the, with the, the best information that you've got with the best intent. And as I always say to people, it's a balancing act, doing as much good as you can with the resources that you've got, you know. Yeah, the ideal world, you'd probably spend. Spend, you know, millions of dollars to try and invent the world's perfect packaging, but unrealistic that it's going to be down to you to make that investment. But, you know, the intents there, you're, you're looking for it. And, and I think, you know, as more companies start pushing for better outcomes, someone, you know, the pressure's being put, going to be put on those supply chains to come up with better, you know, better outcomes or better products. So all of this is pushing us in the right direction, but it's genuine and I think people can see through, you know, there's just a real sense and that, yeah, what you're doing, you generally care about it and hopefully that does win through long term. But I guess it's, it's, you know, seemingly all over the world at the minute, tough economic times, and.

To a degree, people are shopping with the, you know, more with their wallets maybe, than with their values. Yeah. In the ideal world, I'd like to buy this product from them, but.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think this came up in your conversation with Perry as well, Tim. But, you know, we, we are better at doing this stuff than we are at really talking about it or getting cut through at that communication level. I mean, I love opportunities like this where we can have an in depth conversation. But you know, when it comes to, you know, attracting and retaining customers at that surface, at that initial sort of surface level, we, we really struggle because.

We don't, we're not kind of, of, we're not kind of thinking in one liners and marketing slogans. And you know, we tend to see the more you look into the complexities of things, the more reluctant you are to come out with a sort of oversimplified statement about a particular thing. And, and you know, people are busy and it can be hard to get that cut through when you're like, hey, I need to, I can't tell you, I can't communicate this to you in less than 500 words. Will you read this blog? You know, it's like, well, there's only so many people that are going to have the time or the interest to give you that much of their attention, which is totally valid. But I think that is a, that is an issue that we, that we have. You know, we're fairly sort of earnest in our endeavors and I think, you know, often doing a lot more behind the scenes than what we ever managed to actually get forward in a customer facing scene. So those that have been with us, we do have really great loyal, long standing customer base and, and they see it and they get it and they value it. But when it comes to getting that message across to, for instance, a lot of younger consumers who we know really value the work that we do, but you know, we just, we're not super adept at communicating in a way that can reach that audience. So yeah, it's something that we really need to work on and are working on. But yeah, it's a tricky one because we want to avoid, you know, slogans and oversimplifications and things as much as possible. So it takes a little bit of time probably to get to know us. You know what I mean? Yeah, I hear you.

Because you, the, the value is in, is in that depth and that authenticity. And like you say, if you kind of did a, A one. Yeah, like a really vibrant Facebook ad with, you know, kill the Krill, you know. Yeah, sure, yeah, it might, it might be punchy and catchy, but to explain. But we're not, we're not actually advocating killing Krill. We're actually saying, no, don't. These are all the reasons. Yeah, it is. I mean, I, I kind of have the same Affliction, you know, trying to explain to the casual passerby who may have no idea that even the concept of business for good. You know, we, we just, we. And you know, that's not to say that businesses have to but you know, because I think most, most small to medium businesses around the world are, you know, they're, they're quite often, you know, family run or husband and wife team or you know, small business owner. They're doing as much good as they can with what they've got. They've just never been told that there's maybe a slightly different way that you can approach business that you know, is, is more about people, planet, community and what have you. So they're not immune to the idea or they're not adverse to the idea. They just never heard about it. And so yeah, it's similar boat for me which is kind of why I do one of the reasons why I do this podcast. It' like well, hopefully someone's listening on a walk or a run or a commute and they go oh, okay, I kind of see what's going on here. Yeah, maybe so yeah, it's tough but the value is in the, is in that authenticity and the fact that it will take some work for you to connect to this because if it was easy and quick and transactional then you're just big box retailer with, with no heart and soul.

So yeah, that's it.

Anyone listening who can, who can solve this problem for us?

Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. No, it is, it's, it's, it's a, it's a bit of a tough one. But that said, like it has made us really determined to help other smaller businesses because New Zealand has some phenomenal natural products businesses and a lot of them are really small, you know, like say a couple or you know, will be a sole, sole founder. You know, there may be only sort of three or four people working, working there, but they're doing, making some really beautiful products and really doing things again with a lot more care and integrity. You know, something like B Corp might not be on their radar yet but you know, we know because we have really exhaustive onboarding, you know, criteria and conversations and things. We know that they're doing something special and they're really, you know, they're really raising the bar was with what they're producing. And it gives us great pleasure to be able to help them find their audience, to reach their conscious consumer by giving them an opportunity to tell their story, you know, that's something that, that I feel really proud about in terms of the work that we do because there are so few to what we were just talking about. You know, there are so few opportunities to get, for them to get that story across other than, you know, word of mouth at all, face to face at the farmers market, you know, so they're not going to. Most retailers are just not going to be interested in understanding in the first instance necessarily why what they're doing is special and better for the environment and how they're looking after their people and all of that, that, you know, how they might be producing a product that's better for the planet as well as better for human. The humans using it because they're, you know, doing it with greater integrity. So yeah, we get, we, we really try and champion those, those businesses and really get them, get them in front of people, you know, because it's just, there's just so few opportunities again and the way that our, you know, our market is set up to, for, for people to, to be able to talk about what they're doing and then, and, and to really promote and then ultimately encourage, you know, as they gain traction, them to go through independent certifications like the B Corp process in particular. And we're always, as you know, is advocating for more of our supplier partners to become B Corp. And also actively look for B Corp suppliers for, you know, for all men, not just for the products that we range, but also for packaging and logistics and things as well.

Yeah, yeah. You're definitely an aggregator and amplifier.

Yeah.

I guess. I wonder whether was it intentional or was it subconscious in the, you know, if, like if your mum had health posts when she was starting out as a platform, you know, was there, what was that intentional, do you think, in terms of where the business has ended up? Because, you know, you're kind of helping the same businesses or businesses.

That's it. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, good point.

Yeah.

It is closing the loop or.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't know if it would have been conscious, but I think. Yeah, and it's interesting that you draw attention to that because. Yeah, that really resonates what you're saying. I think that is partly why we get such satisfaction out of being able to do that because. Yeah, that's. That's right. It does speak back to our roots as well. Yeah.

In terms of that personal connection to meaning and purpose. It's, you know, for your mum, it must be really meaningful and she must have, I imagine like a Real sense of pride. And the fact, you know, she came from like you say, you know, from basically being on the benefit to co creating a massive retail business, like yes, that, that's fulfilling for me. Yes, I've done some cool stuff. I've created this beautiful family business so you know, brought the family into it like that. That's a, that's amazing in and of itself. But in the back of her mind there must be a bit of like, hopefully there's someone like me who's now having an easier run of this than I did by virtue of us existing. So it's kind of like double layered layer of, of meaning. Like I think you can, if you and the team could really connect into that and that sense of values like that, that is, you know, this purpose, fuel, performance that I talk about. It's like you've got a super fuel there that, you know, the, the person working on the checkout in chemist warehouse, you know, there ain't nothing there, you know.

Cheap stuff to as many people as possible. That sounds great but you're not paying me very well. You're not paying my colleagues very well. Well, you know, you. Yeah, like the whole. I think, I think that's the really tricky thing because to encapsulate, it's like, to try and capture that. It's like trying to nail mist wall or you know, the taste and smell of the number three. It's, it's really hard to articulate it but it's almost, it almost needs to be inarticulable because it is, is, it is more, more of a felt emotion thing rather than a catchy statement one liner.

That's right.

And I think that's a real tension there. But it's, it's. How do you. Yeah, it's leading people to. That there's something really, really special there.

That's right. I think, yeah, a couple of points on that. I think creating.

More diverse employment opportunities in rural communities is something that, you know, mum is rightly proud of that legacy and you know, we see the impact that it has on this community being based here as the largest employer in this community. And you know, the fact that it gives people opportunities, work opportunities that wouldn't otherwise exist. There's not enough other, you know, medium sized e commerce retailer down the road. You know, it really is, it's an anomaly. I mean we, we literally get camper vans. We're in a. In fact, if people wanted to check out because the landscape, the, the, the business health post itself and the work we do out at Whariki and and farewell spit with the health post. Nature Trust is captured beautifully on a country calendar episode. Did a, did a focus on, on our businesses and things last year and that's just a really, it's a really good way of getting a sense of the lay of the land and a lot of beau footage and things. But we really are like a reasonable sized business premises in a, in a cow paddock. You're surrounded by cow paddocks. So we do, we get camper vans and things calling in in the summer going, why would these people here, what's going on? You know, so I think, you know, it is really like actually creating that those opportunities for, for rural Kiwis is definitely part of, part of what it's about. And when it comes to again supporting those smaller natural products businesses, they often are located rurally. You know, it's something that people are doing because again that it's coming through the land and the connection with plants and plant medicine. So yeah, so it is, that is, that is really satisfying. And I think just to pick up on your other point too, Tim, you know, that attracting and retaining talent, so called, you know, wonderful people is a huge, you know, bonus of being evidently values and purpose lead. You know, I just feel like we've been so.

So fortunate with the team that we've had, you know, the team that we have now and the team team, the people that we've had, you know, over the last, you know, decades. And I think so much of that, like we really have in terms of what we've been able to pay the people that we've, that we've had with us, you know, we haven't been able to compete on that level of salary. A lot of them have come from bigger organizations to work with us because they want to be, you know, part of something that, that feels good and that reflects the kind of changes that they want to see in the world. And again, that's a really hard thing to quantify in terms of benefit business. But I believe, and I know my brother believes it's been enormously instrumental in us being able to continue to thrive and grow throughout the various, you know, challenges of the last few few years. So again, that's something I always try and take the opportunity to, to emphasize because I think if people understood how powerful that is, there would, that would be really be added incentive to double down now on, on the values and, and purpose and vision. Because yeah, really, you know, if you want to be working with people that you love and if you can be working with people that are. That love what you're doing and you know, it's just. Yeah, they change. It's this total game changer, really.

Yeah. I don't think it's, I don't think it's through luck. I think it's just genuinely, like I say, people can feel, you can feel that sense of genuine genuineness, you know, authenticity, like genuine authenticity. Because I think again, even authentic is a word that's bandied around and you know, pretty inauthentically. Have you ever had a conversation with Tish from Raglan Food?

Yes, yes, we were on it. We did a presentation for seminar together. Yeah.

Which is the, the per capita highest employer of a small rural.

Yes, we recognized, we had it. It was wonderful to meet her actually, because we recognized so many parallels in our, in our stories. Yeah, yeah, it was really, it was a really cool connection the company built.

Around her creating a better product for a partner who had some healthy.

Yeah, yeah.

Rural community. It's also, I remember doing my A level geography back in the day in the UK and Mr. Henderson, who to be, to be fair, he didn't teach us much geography. He just strung together a bunch of anecdotes over a two year course. But one of, one of the case studies I do remember was the, the founder of LEGO in Denmark. Because the, the headquarters is still to this day, I believe, in this really small town in the middle, you know, because when you look at human geography, if you're going to build a big factory to pump out stuff to sell to a global market, you know, it needs to be close to infrastructure, near a water supply, you know, there's all the kind of standard, you know, if you, if you were the NBA.

Project manager looking to build a factory, you know, here's what you need to have. And the LEGO factory has got absolutely none of it. The only reason it was built there is because the founder loved his hometown so much and he didn't want to move. And so it's kind of cool to hear that, you know, you can do what you want to do based on how you want to do it rather than just, yeah, going down the tick box and going, you know, let's be really systematic and mechanical about, you know, again, I think it just comes back to that connection to, you know, and I think this, what, this is what separates.

Business for good and B Corps is is that the really top performing ones like yourselves are. You're connected to yourself and you're connected to that deeper meaning and purpose as opposed to you know, we just. The health post B Corp would make sense to do just from a marketing perspective. It's like yeah, it's kind of trending. Yeah, we're in the kind of, you know, natural health world. Yeah, let's just go get the B Corp. And, but again and, and every B Corp that I've worked with, you know, you just kind of feel like it's genuine, like you're doing it for all the right reasons and it just shines through.

Great. Yeah, thank you, Tim. Yeah. B Corp first came to our notice at the biggest natural products trade fair in the world is in Anaheim and we're in Los Angeles and we, yeah, we went there. We have attended multiple times. But it really became clear around about 2014, 2015 I think think that you know, a lot of the most interesting brands that were popping up at this enormous trade fair, the ones that were kind of popping out of the thousands and thousands of stands and people vying for your attention were B Corps. We were like, oh, this is interesting. What's, what's this about? You know, it was belong but no one here had heard of, of it had never crossed our radar. It's not a conversation we'd ever had with, with anyone here in New Zealand at that point. Yeah, I was really just through seeing that the, the self selecting nature of the brands overcoming B Corp in that hugely competitive and in some ways quite a bit more advanced American natural products market though the trade fairs international. So it's organizations from all around the world but you know it's primarily the American brands, forward thinking American brands that were leading that B Corp kind of wave there. And then yeah, we came back and we're like oh, we got to start looking into this. This looks, this looks pretty interesting. You know. And then yeah, and that led to us certifying our know, fairly small own own brand range of, of supplements and, and superfoods and things which is called Biobalance. And that was, we certified that in 2018.

And yeah, at the time I think was the first supplement brand in Australasia to be B Corp certified. Again here in little old Collingwood, you know again population 200 where there's then there's not even really anyone in New Zealand much at that stage aware of the certification. But again just sort of seeing, just just yeah being curious I guess about what, what's happening in other parts of the world and, and what part that we here can kind of play in play in that. Because we do and I think you know, you'll be able to speak More to this, but I think seeing the, the real pickup in B Corps in this part of the world over the last little while, you know, we've got, and I feel particularly proud about the community actually in the Top of the south and Christchurch as well, totally punches it out its way to the B Corp department, for which I'm sure you can take some credit personally, Tim. But yeah, just like with we've got Picks and Chia Sisters and so other beautiful businesses just right here in our own region in the Top of the south. You know, really awesome trailblazing B Corps. I feel like again that those things that we touched on earlier, like that spirit of, you know, kind of independent, critical thinking, desire to do things better, you know, constantly looking for, for ways and things and tools to help move these, move these issues and conversations forward. And yeah, I feel, I feel proud that that's, that's the case and that that's still being expressed.

Yeah, yeah, rightly so. And yeah, I think, you know, you, you would have been a big part of that Top of the south island movement as well. You know, people seeing, you know, you've. I think that that's a large part of it for a lot of people is, you know, seeing is believing. It's like, oh, well, okay, if a company based in a small rural, you know, village, let's face it, 200 is probably, I don't know what the threshold cut off is for village versus town, but you know, pretty small community. It's kind of like, okay, well why can't we do that? So I think, yeah, go you for being the, being the trailblazer at the, at the Top of the South. I'm cognizant that we're rapidly running out of time because you're on the screen. School pickup duty, even though it is just next door.

Yes. Yep. No, I should head off by 10 past anyway. Thanks, Tim. Yeah, I've got parent teacher interviews. So yes, it is just. This is the, this is, yes, the small community. We literally share a boundary with the school. So it's pretty perfect the way to do it.

So I guess any sort of highlights or anything good, bad, unexpected or otherwise from the B Corp journey? We're, I guess, you know, it's always interesting, I think for people to hear businesses like yours which are clearly very purpose driven from day one. Were there any parts that you're kind of like, oh, actually we're not doing so well here. And equally, what were the parts where you were kind of like, man, this is so easy. We're Just tripping over points here because clearly we're. We're epic.

I think we. It was interesting because a lot of what we do, we've kind of evolved into. Again, we've been around for a while and have the sort of deep roots in this community. So a lot of what we've done has just sort of evolved over time. And I think it was a. So we know that we're doing lots of good stuff. We know all the things that we're doing for community and that we're doing for, you know, our local environment and things, but we weren't necessarily recording those in the way that we could have been, you know, in terms of policies and things like that. Like, we were just. It's just our more. More custom and pract. And we do it and we know people know we do it. And, you know, it was definitely a good prompt for us to, you know, just to get some more stuff written down really, and, you know, be a bit more thorough and again, to think. To think a bit. A bit harder about.

You know, certainly areas that we. That hadn't, you know, like diversity and inclusion. We definitely took some great, you know, you had really dug into some examples and some templates and things there through, you know, the areas is that perhaps again, we are in a small rural community that may not have reached us in the same way that they would have in a bigger urban centre in terms of significance and impact or being at the head of that sort of movement. So, yeah, that was really useful to get, just to be a bit more keyed into the international best practice in some of those areas.

It's that kind of intentionality around impact rather than, I guess, and I think that's what's a useful tool. It's a framework, it's a heuristic to kind of go, okay, like I said, what is international best practice? Rather than. That's right, we're kind of hacking away. We're trying to do the best that we can, but we don't know what we don't know.

Yes. Yeah, that's right, that's right. And there is another layer of accountability that comes from writing things down and having them subjected to external scrutiny. You know, it's like we. We trust ourselves to continue doing these things, continue building on these things. But that doesn't mean that there's not, you know, value rather than just.

Just accountability.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

That's a pretty high level of accountability.

Yeah, exactly. There's a high net. It is a high Level of accountability. Indeed, that's right. But then that said, we do have yet an external board of directors. So again, I think it's really powerful for them to know our B Corp commitments and you know, for them to govern to those commitments. And I think without going through a more formal process like that again, again, you don't have necessarily the same degree of assurance that your directors would be governing the organization in a way that aligns with your values. You can have the conversations and that's great. And obviously you recruit those roles on the basis of that values alignment in the first place. Of course. But I still think there's a lot of value in having those formalised commitments as well.

Yep, no, totally. So I guess to wrap up then, what's the future look like? Is there a particular area of impact in particular improvement that you're really focused on or is it just, yeah, general maintenance or just small wins that you've, you've got as an eye for the future?

Yeah, well, there's always, there's always more for sure. We've got, we've got plenty, plenty going on. So we've got our mindful brands as one of the ways that we try and communicate.

In a way that's a little bit easier for people to kind of to, to grasp. In a nutshell, the brands that we work with that are doing things better in the areas of transparency, packaging, nature and people community. So we're really wanting to work more with those, you know, those outstanding brands in those various areas to bring their, bring their stories more to life for, for customers and yeah, so we'll be. Be working on, on that. We're starting a partnership with the local sustainable living center to help support their CHI resilience program which is, you know, like you said, it is TOUG and you know, to produce food locally for those in need in the community in a way that is sustainable and obviously, you know, reduces a whole because we've got the Taka Hill between us and the rest of the world here. So you know, transportation, reducing the carbon, working with, with New Zealand Post on that in terms of our deliveries as well. Finally able to get an EV van that will be able to actually have the range and capacity to do the route from Nelson to Collingwood. So upgrading our electrical, you know, set up so that we can accommodate the charges and that whole piece, expanding our solar array. We've already, we've had 72 panels for ages. But we're wanting to up our solar production because that doesn't near cover now our usage we've you know, grown a fair bit since the first solar installment was put in. So, yeah, we've always got lots going on with the Nature Trust that just keeps on gathering, gathering momentum. We've got the Whariki Ecosanctuary. We're introducing threatened seabirds and other species there and protecting remnant populations of endangered species like Nelson Green gecko. We're about to get out there with the full team, actually, in a couple of weeks. We do full team tree plantings. Unfortunately, our Auckland team can't join us for these, but they go and do their. They go and do their plantings in Auckland as well. So that's. Yeah, that's always really great to get out and do some more of that. And we've, you know, that's a partnership with Manafina Wa Kimohoa and the Department of Conservation, among others as well. So we're getting some, really getting some great progress there and regenerating the pretty spectacular landscape on our back door. So, yeah, and lots in the business front. We've acquired Flora and Fauna. It's another B Corp, Australian B Corp and Nourish Life, a couple of natural products businesses that were. Have been really successful but were struggling at the time at which we. We acquired them and just trying to get them up and running again. Yeah, and that's going, that's going well. Yeah, it's taking a lot of time and energy. Yeah. Brother's spending a lot of time in Sydney there at the moment doing, doing that with his partner. Yeah. And yeah, so plenty heaps. Probably too much, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah. That was just off the top of my head too, so I won't go on. But no shortage of opportunities, that's for sure, to, to amplify impact and it's just, just about.

Yeah.

Trying to prioritize, I guess, and realizing like you said earlier, you've got to be perfect. Can't spend, you know, you know, too much time trying to refine one area. It's got to try and keep it, keep an open mind and, you know, work as much as we can across all of these aspects that we see as being important. And yeah, there's, there's a lot, there's setbacks, but there's also lots of hopeful. You know, we, we feel really again, the relationships, I think, with our customers, team and, and so many other businesses wanting to do things better, whether they're in our industry or not. You know, I just find that.

Yeah. Inspiring and hope hopeful and yeah, long may that continue to grow.

I guess I have no doubt.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's super cool.

Nice.

Look at that. We've got just about two minutes to go, so what a perfect time to. To finish. So like just. Yeah, thanks for making the time to have a chat. It's been good to, yeah. Know, get to know a bit more about, about the bizo and, and what you're doing and yeah, just, just keep on doing. I think there's a real, just genuine, genuine authenticity and so many layers of purpose and meaning of what you're doing. So. So yeah, just keep on doing what you're doing. It's.

Thanks, Tim. Super cool. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation and yeah, keep, keep doing what you're doing.

Thanks.

Yeah, yeah, you inspired many on the, on the. On the past. So, yeah, I'm sure you'll continue.

No option. I'm fundamentally unemployable. So this is, this is all I've got.

So it's quite helpful sometimes to have your options a bit strained. Keeps you focused.

Your voice. Viking ship. Yeah, just burn it. I'm here now.

Yeah, no, that's right. No, you're good for it, Tim. I've got no doubt.

Yeah, we're doing all right so far.

Cool. Well, hopefully we'll connect again before too long.

I feel like I should head up to the top of the south island soon.

Yeah, actually that'd be up there. That'd be cool. I was actually thinking it would be really nice to do a bit of a regional gathering. We'd be really keen on that. So, yeah, if you, if you do.

Something, we've got be local based in Christchurch, but we do try and represent this, you know, the whole the of the South Islands. Maybe we can do a special be local edition at the top of the Nice.

That'd be. That'd be great. Yeah, keep us posted. Cool, sounds good. Thanks again. Okay, take care.

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