#88 Fiddler on the Shoe

Hey, Kia ora shimai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. A big thank you as always to our regular listeners, possibly both of you. No, we've got a few more than that, but no thank you. I'm bumping into people who say, hey, I've listened to your podcast and that's quite cool as ever. If you like what we're putting out there, tell a friend, tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your brother, sister, uncle, auntie, I don't know, tell someone in the chip shop. And if you could give us a five star review on any platform of any kind, that would be greatly, greatly appreciated. Anyway, without further ado, with me today, I have got Jillian Boucher. Gillian, how are you?

I'm good, Tim. I'm good, thanks. How are you?

I am doing all right. We're recording this on a Friday afternoon, so life can't be too bad.

That's right, that's right. And you nailed my name. Thank you.

Thankfully, because we tested it before we started. But hey, we'll do the behind the scenes release of the podcast episode later on perhaps. So, Gillian, for people who don't know who you are, who are you and what do you do?

My name is Gillian Boucher and I am a sustainability advisor and co founder of Orba Shoes and I am also a sustainability consultant for Morphm Environmental and I am based here on the beautiful Kapiti coast just north of Wellington. Waikanai Beach. It's a bit blustery today, but that's okay. It's been quite hot, so it's nice to cool down.

Nice. And we'll take whatever Mother Nature throws at us on any given day. Absolutely. So I'm sensing, well, people listening in will be sensing that maybe both of us have accents. So where are you from originally?

I am from a small little island called Cape Breton island, which is part of the province of Nova Scotia in eastern Canada. So the island is attached to the mainland by a very small man made causeway and mostly populated by Scottish immigrants that came over through the Highland clearances as economic migrants, though I'd say they'd meet the criteria of refugees, to be honest.

Over a man's refugee is another man's economic migrant.

Yeah, yeah.

About.

Over the course of about 100 years, they came over to Cape Breton island from, from the west coast and Highlands and Islands of Scotland. So it's quite a predominantly Scottish culture. I do have a French last name, much to my grandfather's dismay. My mother married a Frenchman.

He was very Scottish. My grandfather. And. Yeah. So I grew up surrounded by Scottish culture and music and dance and language, so it was a pretty interesting way to grow up.

Nice.

So, yeah, that's where I'm.

Did you learn any Gaelic or anything?

I did, I did, I did. I had a pretty good grasp on the language by the time I was 12. Gaelic was my grandfather and my grandmother's first language. Wow. And they started just kind of using the language at home when they didn't want the kids to know what they were saying, so.

So that. That was the incentive to learn. I really want to know what they're talking about. I reckon that's probably why they did it. It's like, we'll talk in this, we'll talk this, and then the kids will want to know if we're talking about them. So that will incentivize them to learn. I quite like that as an idea to get your kid to learn a language.

And as a result. And of course, the concerted effort on, you know, on behalf of the Nova Scotia government.

Kids weren't allowed to speak anything other than English in school. So my grandparents on my father's side were French speakers, and my grandparents and my mother's side were Gaelic speakers, and I speak neither, which is a sad. Yeah, just a sad reality for a lot of people.

You could have had both, and that would have been.

I could have had. I could have had both. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

For those people who don't know their history, I'd like people like myself with a degree in history, Scotland. It's funny because Scotland and France are actually quite an old alliance because the common. Common enemy was England. So the. There's this historically strong links between Scotland and France because they would occasionally sort of buddy up and go, look, you come from the south, we'll come from the north. We might get them, but never really successful. So.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. There were definitely elements of that in Nova Scotia with the French settlers and the Scottish settlers, but.

Not a lot of intermarriage between a lot of the Scottish settlers. I think they were just really aware of how strongly they wanted to hold on to their culture and their background and their roots. And that's still. That's still. Is pretty much the way today, for sure, when. When I go back. Yeah. As a result, I did become a professional touring fiddle player.

As you do.

As you do. You know, I thought, yeah, everyone and their dog plays the fiddle from Cape Breton Island. So, yeah, I do have one of those little stereotypes.

You have to. You have to get out. Because there's too much competition, like.

Absolutely. My goodness. Yeah, it was an interesting way to grow up, for sure.

Yeah, I can imagine. That's. That's cool. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Just cool story, cool background. So. So how. Well, we'll. We'll. Maybe we'll start there. So. Yeah. So how did you. You've. When did you leave Nova Scotia? Cape Breton Island? Like, what's.

As soon as I could.

Sorry, Mom. Sorry, Mom.

Well, actually, I was really fortun. Because when I did pick up the fiddle, piano was my first instrument and I was also a dancer. But when I did pick up the fiddle, so happens I was pretty darn good at it. And.

It became a social passport. So I started traveling internationally when I was about 16 to do shows in America and teach and that sort of thing, and then moved over to the UK when I graduated from high school, went to Edinburgh University to study biology. Quit when I realized that I was having way more fun playing music in pubs and doing gigs and teaching.

So.

I ended up living there for three years, just playing music and teaching and pouring pints and having a really great time. Yeah, that sounds a bit.

Remnants of my university career. In my first term, I was playing rugby for the university, which I thought, you know, was. I should be proud of this. But Wednesdays was. Was always the away games for sports or. Sorry, every other Wednesday would be an away game. And so I was missing a tutorial on a Wednesday with one of the professors. So I went to the. The head of history. So I went to the history department. So I'm looking for Prof. Whatever his name was. And the. The history secretary, History department. He doesn't have an office here because he works in like three or four different universities across South Wales. But what's it about? You know, maybe, maybe I can help. I said, well, I've missed some of his tutorials. I'm just trying to catch up, you know, I just want to see what. What I've missed. And she's like, oh, I think you need to talk to the head of department. So next minute I'm wheeled in front of the head of department. He's so what's this I've hear you about? You're missing some tutorials? I said, well, yeah, I'm representing university at rugby, sir. And he goes, well, I think you need to think about what's more important, playing rugby or your history degree. And I think it was the fact that I paused.

I made my history degree, obviously. Obviously.

Yeah. Yeah, well, you finished your degree at.

Least I got it, I got it. I got. What they call in the UK is A. I got a 2, 2. So it's either called a Desmond, as in Desmond Tutu, or a sportsman's degree. So it shows because in the uk, you either get a first, a two one, a two two, a third, or I think it's a third or a pass. And a 2:1 is always like the silver medal in the Olympics. It's like, you knew that if you pushed a bit harder, you could have. You possibly could have got a first. Whereas a two two was like, I burnt that bridge on day one. I knew I was. I knew that I was just gonna. A 22 was like the solid degree that was like, yeah, you. You turned up to enough lectures, but you've clearly got some character and you. You were in some societies and you can. You can drink a pint of beer, so.

Yeah, I hear you, I hear you. I went back to university when I was 28, and I was definitely a bit more focused and driven. Yeah, definitely.

One of my high was an older student and he. Yeah, he was doing economics and accounting. So shout out to Dave. And he worked like a dog because it's like, you know, I have to get this degree for my job, whereas we're kind of like, yeah, if I get it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, being a slightly mature student was definitely helpful, that's for sure. But no, I ended up coming to New Zealand the first time for a music tour when I was about 20 and just kept coming back. Always loved New Zealand, but knew that I had to be closer to where the gigs were and where the money was and it wasn't here. But that kind of changed about 10 years ago, where my gigs were becoming kind of more cohesive, tours a bit more structured, and I was doing that, like, three times a year. So I was able to finally say, okay, I can live in the place that I love and just leave three times a year for six weeks at a time and make that work. So I made that work until pretty much until the borders closed.

Yeah.

And I couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, that'll do it. That'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. So that was. That was an interesting time. And so I kind of hung up my bow and by then I had finished my master's in my second degree and I was ready to just kind of really focus on. Focus on a new career. Yeah.

And so that's what led to Orba, I'm guessing, or was there something that's.

What led to Orba? That's definitely what led to Orba.

Orba was a concept that was kind of floating around with another local entrepreneur here based in Kapiti. He had been over to Bali on business and was introduced to a man named Marshall Westlake who was kind of considered the grandfather of the footwear industry in Indonesia and his background, he's British and he started his career with Clark's Footwear in the UK back in the day. And when he moved to Indonesia at that time, 30, 40 years ago, products and things were packaged in banana leaf and there was minimal kind of plastic packaging kind of going around. And when plastic was introduced en masse.

People were just kind of tossing plastic the way they would banana leaf. And so he just saw this incredible rise in pollution and he knew that he was part of an industry that was contributing to that pollution, whether it be through the manufacturing of petroleum based rubbers in low cost countries with very low environmental regulations, pollution of waterways and landfill at the end of life. And so he, he decided that he wanted to end his career or finish his career or at least have something that he could be proud of and that is to create the most sustainable footwear possible.

But he needed people to kind of take the idea and run with it. And so yeah, it was an idea and I was looking for something to kind of bite my teeth into and because they wanted to create something that could make really impressive environmental claims and needed to look at materials, needed look at life cycle assessment of materials and compare them and processes and supply chain and shoes are still made in low cost countries. There's a lot of issues with that, especially with supply chain management and then of course end of life. So yeah, it was the perfect project for me to kind of get stuck into and I ended up being Orba's first full time employee actually. Back in 20. Back in 2000 and 20, yeah.

Super cool. It's funny how sometimes, yeah, life just throws up these chance encounters. But I guess it's a big part of it is having the courage, the curiosity to go. Yeah, because you could have quite easily gone, oh, I don't know, this is risky. Or you know, I've got bills to pay, you know, maybe, or just go and get a job as a sustainability consultant or whatever. So it's quite, there's, I don't know if you know the Shakti mats, you've seen those? Yeah, yeah, People. If people don't know what they are, it's like a mat that's got these little pin things on it and you lie down on it. And it puts the blood flow.

Like a nail bed.

Yeah, basically a plastic nail bed. But because I think they're based in Christchurch or they've got. They've got something down here. And the origin story of how that happened is very similar. Basically, a guy, the guy who now runs it was like at some meditation retreat in India and the guy who had the. The, who invented the Shakti map was basically, he was like a millionaire or a billionaire. He's like, I've got enough money, I don't need any more. I've got this idea. You can have it if you want, but just make sure you take it out. And it's like, how cool is that? Like, I'm looking for my moment of some dude who goes, I've got the idea. It's all here, you just need to go and do it. Maybe one day. I don't know. Although I quite like.

Maybe one day. Yeah, maybe one day. Look, there's a lot of great ideas out there, but it's. It's having the ability to kind of take the ideas and make a plan and actually go for it. And I think that's where myself and my husband Scott, who's also involved in the company, that's where our strengths were. My strengths were in strategy, sustainability and his strengths were in business growth.

So it was a really, really cool kind of intertwined and really great connection and we haven't killed each other yet and it's been quite a few years, but. But our work really complements each other and. Yeah, so it's been. It's been really interesting and, yeah, really exciting, actually.

Nice.

Very exciting.

I tried working with my dad after university and that was pretty clearly going to end in a murder suicide one way or the other. So we were just like, yeah, I think we'll just call it quits and I'll go to New Zealand. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

No, we've.

Yeah.

I think it either works or it doesn't work. I don't. I don't think there's a. There's a middle ground. Like, I think there's bad days, maybe, but, yeah, it'll either work or it won't work. And it's really clear.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And. Absolutely. And now that I've really started working full time with Morphem, I've kind of stepped back a little bit from, From Orba. I've done a. I've done a lot of their strategy and where they're going and what they, what they're doing, which is waiting for that next step. Of growth and you know, bumping into, bumping. Crossing over into international markets and start recruiting and so yeah, yeah. But also it wasn't that daunting for us to take on a new, a new business or a new vision because we've been entrepreneurs our whole life. You know, I've always been a job maker. I self managed, self promoted, self booked my, my music career completely. So yeah, I've always been quite independently driven.

Nice. Yeah. I think.

You know, there's various schools and universities now that teach entrepreneurism but I kind of tend to feel fundamentally you're like you say you're either a job maker or maybe a job doer because it's not for the faint hearted going out and giving something a go and if you, if you don't like an element of uncertainty in your life or you're not at least capable of handling uncertainty and yeah, that extra level of stress.

Yeah, definitely. And a lot of trial and error and I think, yeah. And I do give, I do take my hat off to, to Scott because he is just one of those powerhouse entrepreneurs. He is like he'll be an entrepreneur forever and he just lives off the thrill of it. Whereas I'm like, I'm a little tired of this now. I just like a little security please.

Yeah. So, so yeah, yeah. Looking for a little bit, looking for something a little bit more structured.

Yep.

At this time in my life, which I've, which I've found for sure.

Yeah, yeah. So tell us a bit more about Orbis and for people who haven't come across the amazing shoes that Aubrey makes, tell us a bit about why they're different and why they're so amazing and then, and then maybe if we can backfill a little bit about how you got, you've got the idea, you got the sort of the product mix for making them, but how did you go about making the first pair of shoes and did they work? I suppose would be a supplementary question. So that was quite a few questions there.

But looking into materials. So by the time we met Greg and Marshall, they had been researching materials for four years, pretty much looking for materials to replace all of the different components that go into footwear. There's a really cool photo on the Orba website, actually, I think it's on the materials page and it's basically where we've kind of deconstructed the entire shoe and you can see like there's toe puffs and heel stiffeners and there's all sorts of little bits and shoes that if you Take them apart. You'd be like, wow, I didn't know that there were so many components. A lot of these components are made out of plastic. Plastic or synthetics. And we had to figure out how to replace every single component with a material that could meet the number one criteria. It had to be compostable, basically. It had to be biodegradable and compostable. It had to be completely non toxic, non polluting, not made out of synthetics and not made out of petroleum based rubbers and plastics. So that created.

A real problem.

Trying to find suppliers who first of all suppliers would be like, why? Why do you want a heel stiffener made out of plant based fabric? We're like, because we're on this mission.

To shit and destroy the planet.

Hello, we're on this mission. I know, it's, it's such a funny thing. You never really think about shoes as being polluting. We never really think about the things that we absolutely, really need. They're such a necessity. And so we just buy what's available to us. And so shifting this kind of paradigm on. Wait a second, I think we can probably address some of this because they are made out of pretty nasty stuff. And it's the petroleum based rubber that really drives me crazy because we don't even know how long that stuff's going to be around for because the first piece of petroleum made rubber is still out there and sitting in landfill somewhere. So.

Even trying to figure out how to make a sole that didn't have any petroleum based rubber in it was R and D and trial and error for years and finding. It's been a huge science experiment.

But in 2021 we released the first Orba Ghost. We had figured it out.

And we released Orba and it was such a celebration being able to kind of figure out how to replace all of these components. So our next goal is to really kind of solidify the process for end of life.

Now when I talk about the materials, it wasn't just the materials that were really important to us. A lot of materials were coming also from low cost countries, a lot of manufacturing in low cost countries. So our supply chain management was again another entity that we felt really, really strongly about. And transparency. Knowing who's making our shoes, knowing what kind of working conditions they're in, knowing that labor laws are being adhered to. So that was a whole other element of the process of orb having purpose even before. And this was before I even knew what B Corp was. All of these elements to us covered our basis for true Sustainability when it comes to product manufacturing.

And I got to implement all of this stuff because I was the first employee. So we were a small team and whenever I had a suggestion, everyone just agreed. And it was that level of commitment to doing the right thing made it just pretty streamlined. It was pretty fantastic. Pretty fantastic. So a lot of supply chain management and even running training programs for some of our suppliers. Our hand woven flax canvas, hand woven by some beautiful women in Ubud in Bali. And we just saw that there were a couple of things they really wanted to grow in a sustainable way. They were really committed to that. But there were just a few little things that were kind of like, oh, you could use the schedule for sweeping the floors and better working hours and kind of that sort of commitment. And so we found some training programs, score training programs run by the ILO and engaged with them. And we paid for training for two facilities in Bali before we even sold a shoe. We were committed to funding training programs to help our suppliers kind of, yeah, grow in a more sustainable way with us. And now we're, yeah, looking at processes for the most efficient way of getting these shoes to break down and in a natural environment. So. So compostability is our end goal. We were actually just visiting a facility today looking at shredding the shoes into 2 centimeter pieces and putting them through a process to create soil that can be tested to make sure that it meets all the standards for soil compostability. Yeah, lots of exciting things.

Nice. So much.

Yeah, there's so much.

So much. But I think you're, you know, when I first came across all. But I just, like, this is so cool.

Because I guess, I guess there is another globally well known shoe brand that is B Corp, that is a bit of a darling perhaps to a lot of people. The old. Am I allowed to mention the word or do you get all shaky?

Of course, absolutely. All.

Yeah, all birds.

Who's going to say it first?

Yeah, it's like, you know, Macbeth in the actors don't say the N word. You know, like they. Because I had all birds before I had all this and you kind of go, wow, like this is really cool. Like they're a big brand and you know, yeah, they, they got cool materials, natural materials. But where they perhaps. Well, I don't, I personally don't believe that their shoe is as sustainable or as biodegradable as your shoe. And you know, so when, when I saw the orbits come along, wow, this, this is like a seriously cool piece of kit. And I think you are up there with, you know, for a first time, you know, a first time B corp. High scoring B corp. That's just absolutely nailing a problem. It's like, go you. Because my kind of test with the B corp is, you know, can you throw rocks at them? Can you look at the go, yeah, look, you've done well here. But. And I think that's where I go with all birds. I kind of go, yeah, look, the shoes are good, but they wear out really quickly and the upper hasn't worn out and I just want to replace the bottom, but I can't do that. And I have to put your shoes in the bin and there's a bunch of stuff in there that's maybe not going to be so good for the planet. Whereas you've kind of like almost gone to. So I think, I think it's the key for what you've done is like you've, you've actually got. How do we solve this problem? Rather than. I kind of almost feel like all but gone. How do we make a slightly better, more ethical trainer? Whereas you've gone, no, no. How do we create a shoe that you could possibly, you know, put some, put a couple of flowers in it and it could turn into a plant pot in your garden for a bit, you know.

Such a good idea.

I gave that to David yesterday.

I did, I did some for people listening. I was part of some sort of consumer brand testing for Orba yesterday and we're not sure how I got on the list. But anyway, one of my ideas was like, you guys should create like a list of 100 ideas but for your old orbits. And one of them could be like, you stick them on the wall upside down and you put some, you know, little indoor plants in them. If I might do that with my next pair that wear out, I'll test it for you. I'll. I'll nail them.

That is just. Oh, I think that's such a good idea. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'll make, I'll have to make a note of that for.

You've got plenty of time. You've got plenty of time before this episode gets launched to get that implemented, so don't worry. So people, in the future, if you see Orbiz hanging on walls with flowers covering, you know that it was launched here today.

Amazing.

I think what, what allbirds did though, and kudos to them and they've put an awful lot of work into, into materials innovation. They, they started the conversation.

Yeah, 100%.

It's like started the conversation you know, and as soon as you start the conversation, then you can start thinking about, oh, okay, well, if that's possible, maybe the next step up is possible. How? Okay, there's a. There's a really good benchmark. Let's raise it.

You know, I've used the same analogy about four times this week. It's like when Roger Bannister ran the first minute mile. You know, it's like as soon as he did it, about 20 people did it the week after, because suddenly people realized it was possible and it was possible.

You can do.

That's what a lot of cool beacons like yourselves are doing. It's like, actually this camp, it can be done. It just comes down to thinking differently and choosing how, being more intentional around the design of a product. Because like, every shoe is designed the same way. Because the system has been designed around putting plastic and petrochemical materials into it.

Yeah.

Because that's the system and everyone's geared up to do it. So, yeah, when you were going to these suppliers and sort of saying, hey, we want to make a show out this material in general, once they got over the shock and the kind of like, this woman's got rocks on her head, were they then receptive to the idea? Were they kind of like, okay, yeah, this is, this is cool. This is a challenge. Like, okay, we want in on it, or were they still just kind of like, sure, we'll study this stuff, but don't come crying to us when the shoes are falling apart.

A lot of them were pretty cool because they were like, oh, premium product. We can make way more money, way more money from these guys.

You know, like, geez, I think there's a tiny little organ. I think our organic cotton labels are shipped from Italy. My goodness. You know, they cost so much money. But.

Yeah, once we found the right suppliers and they kind of got what we were doing and some of them had already joined the movement and they were like, yeah, we've got this, like this. It's plastic, but it's a bioplastic. So it's actually not petroleum based plastic. It's made from organic matter, and it's met kind of compostability standards. So it just took a long time to find them, but they were out there. The most difficult part of the shoe, I think, was the composition of the sole. And it's still going through iterations. In fact, I think we've only really reached our final iteration just within the last month.

Yeah. So working with organic and inorganic kind of matter within the. Within the compound determines how quickly it will decompose and will kind of biodegrade in the right environment. So we've been, yeah. Playing around with the recipe to try and find the right one and stay fit for purpose because you can have any. Something as sustainable as you want, made it out of the most amazing materials and great supply chain and all that. But you know, if you can't wear them, then we're just wasting time and money and resources. And one of the, one of the biggest compliments we get apart from our kind of sustainability efforts is how comfortable they are. And that's cool. That's really cool. So we know they're fit for purpose. Yeah, yeah.

Like we've, we've made these shoes out of biodegradable jelly. They're good for approximately seven seconds before they will just completely obliterate. But hey, it's a winter planet. Yeah.

And when. Well, we do get that. We do. Especially in the beginning, but it seems to kind of. We're not getting the question so often now. But in the beginning people are like, what shoes made out of biodegradable, compostable materials? Will they fall apart when you're wearing them? And I'm like, does your linen shirt fall apart when you wear it to the beach? No. So that's just not really how it works. So there's been so much opportunity for education as well and, and how to kind of how to get the messages across, our key messages. Because it is such a different, it's such a different product, it's such a different process. As you can see, we're doing a lot of work in that space with the guy who we were speaking with yesterday.

Yeah.

Doing some work in that space.

Yeah, he's doing some really cool stuff. He should totally be a B Corp as well. I feel that's different thinking. Yeah. I think it's that classic kind of Peter Thiel 0 to 1, isn't it? You're creating a market and so you are the first big mover in this kind of thing. And so it's going to be, there's going to be an expensive educating and people being skeptical and. But I guess it's that, that adoption curve, you've got the people like me who are like, I actively looking to buy my clothing. That is B Corp. This is a B Corp T shirt. Yeah. Pair of shorts on. Yeah. I haven't really found a decent B Corp sock company yet. So if all. Well, I mean all birds sell some socks, but they wore out really, really quickly.

Right.

Still looking for like A really good pair of socks to complement my, my range. But, you know, I'm, I'm probably on the extreme end of that adoption curve. If it's a bee club, I'm going to buy it because, yeah, I'm like, so I kind of have to. But I didn't, you know, obviously genuinely believe in it. And so I think, yeah, you're creating a, like a, the new thing and that's expensive. But the, the opportunity is that once you have convinced everyone and people, I think I'm on my like my second or third pair of orbits now and I'm like, well, that's me done. I don't need to think about looking at any other shoe brands because I'm just going to buy Orba. And so I think you. Yeah, it's going to take time, but you'll get there because people are going to connect into it and go, yeah, I mean.

Yep. And when shoe companies start, you know, demanding more kind of ethical materials and healthier materials to make the products from, then the cost for supplying does go down. And that's just economics. So, yeah, I mean it's been a bit of a labor of love and a rather expensive project. But, but look, we're still really, really passionate about it and really excited about it. Yeah. And, and looking at some exciting, exciting things in the future for sure.

Nice. So currently selling in New Zealand, but globally still.

Currently or just New Zealand, still testing. Here we're coming out with some colors. New Zealand is an awesome market for testing products. It's got the right population size, it's easy to communicate with. And so we're. Even though economically it's a little bit of a struggle staying in one market because we're using materials and processes that haven't been used in the footwear industry before. We kind of have to have to go through quite a rigorous process of testing them and testing out new dyeing methods because of course we're not going to be using toxic dyes, we're using plant based dyes. In Bali, there's traditional dyeing methods that use about five different plants and they can create 200 different colors. Quite amazing. And they're absolutely beautiful. And so, yeah, looking at a range of colors and having to test out how best to dye the fabric and the upper. So currently doing that. So it takes a long time. It takes a long time. It's not a fast throw it together kind of process.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's cool.

Yeah, we did make it easier for ourselves, Tim.

But where's the fun in that, you know, that's that good Scottish. That's that good Scottish Presbyterian. Self flagellation. No, it must be hard. Give me more winter driving snow.

Actually, it's all the Scottish Catholics moved to Cape Breton island, so it's even a bit, even a bit worse, but.

Even more and more guilt. I need guilt as well.

Exactly. Yeah.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

But I mean, if anything, you know, anything worth doing is typically hard, you know, so it's, it's when, when you're in the middle of it, you know, it's that whole, what's it, Winston Churchill, you know, that the, the hour is dark, it's just before dawn, you know, it's, it feels like it's a nightmare. It's struggle street. It's. But I think you'll look back in three to five years time when you're smashing it in America and Europe and you'll be like, what were we worried about? Yeah. Yeah, look at us now. Emperors of shoes globally.

Why did I have a mental breakdown that day? That doesn't make sense.

Just, just that one day.

Yeah, yeah. And also I think because we take such great care in, in our processes, in our material selection. Like we leave no stone unturned, as you say. Like we're a pretty impenetrable B Corp in that, in that regard it does create such a solid foundation for growth. And. Yeah, so, so definitely, I think that's really, really important. Taking the time, taking the care, taking the patience to really create a really strong foundation to grow on for sure.

So when did B Corp pop up on the radar for you guys? Had you heard of B Corp before being involved with Orba? Or was it part of the journey of. Part of your learning or.

Yeah, I don't, I'm gonna, I don't think so. My, my, my degree in sustainable development was more about environmental management and sustainable procurement practices. Procurement practices. And so it's a bit more kind of sciencey and development projects and environmental based projects, not so much product based. So this was a little bit of a leap for me working in the product space, but not, not so much. I could still take all of the tools that, that I had learned and kind of apply them appropriately. I think B Corp first came on my radar when probably when I was looking at who else is working in this space. And allbirds came up, Veja came up.

And then I was like, what is this little bee in a circle business? And just looked into it and I was like, whoa, this is a big movement. There wasn't really a lot of buzz about it here, and that would have been about four years ago.

And. But there certainly seemed to be quite a buzz about it in North America, in Europe, and it just looked like such a great way to benchmark our practices and a great way to put a stamp of approval on what I knew that we were doing really, really well. You know, it was great to go through the process of measuring it, measuring our impact and advertising our impact and joining a community. Cool, Cool organizations, like, it's the cool kids. B corpse are the cool kids.

I agree.

I like to be cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's. No, that's, that's. Yeah, I agree. It's cool. And that's. That's interesting. Yeah. That you sort of just could see that it was a movement that you wanted to be a part of.

Was there, having gone through the assessment, were there parts of the assessment? Yeah. Were there any sort of surprises? Were there things that you're like, hang on a minute, why haven't they asked us about this? Because we've just spent, you know, a billion dollars of R D trying to make our shoe do this really well. And this, the system doesn't care about it. Or, and, or what was there that you were like, yeah, this is pretty easy. We know. You know, I guess, what's the assessment? A relatively easy one because you're like, yeah, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing this. And then were there any outliers where you're kind of like, okay, no, we hadn't thought about that. Now we need to go back and think about that.

You're stretching my memory a bit because it was, Sorry, it was about two and a half, maybe three years ago when I went to make a self assessment. I'll make it up. And then you can correct me if I'm wrong because it might have been in there, I don't know. But maybe because we put so much energy into.

Materials that had end of life response, responsibility for end of life.

I'm wondering if there was enough covered on that in the B impact assessment. But look, it was rigorous, it was thorough. It covered some really, really awesome stuff. Stuff that I didn't even think about, really. So in that way it was beneficial to like, oh, wow, we could be doing that quite easily. Did I find the process challenging? Not really. Because a lot of the criteria that B Corp was looking for as an educated sustainability professional, I had implemented with Orba from Day Dot, and because we were a small organization.

It didn't involve moving things around. And it didn't involve changing anything. We could just kind of develop in the way that we, that I could see that we needed to develop. And so we basically met a lot of the criteria that Orville was looking for. There was some governance structure stuff that we were kind of doing but not documenting.

And you know, a few things like that. So the documentation and providing evidence. But it really gave us an opportunity to get organized and again, because we were small, that wasn't super challenging. It was, it was, yeah, it gave us an opportunity to get organized from day one in a way that we kind of knew we should be organized.

So yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, you're a really good example of you know, a high scoring B corp where from like you say from day one the intent has been about a specific impact. And that's, that's not every B corp, you know, not every B corp has got a. There's a good mate of mine, Tim o', Brien, he has been a previous podcast guest and he wrote a LinkedIn post a while ago talking about how, you know, purpose statements are dead. You know, long live the impact statement. And initially I kind of saw his post and I was like, I'm not reviving what you're saying here because I think purpose is already important. But we had a back and forth over email and then we discussed it more at length on the podcast episode and I totally get what you're saying now. What he's saying is that, you know, because the risk is a lot of, a lot of purpose statements are done by the marketing teams, you know, wow, look at us. Aren't be amazing. But actually are you making an impact? And yeah, you can, you know, a cigarette company could, could create a purpose statement because you know, there is a, there is a potential benefit to smoking cigarettes. You know, it's good for reducing anxiety, it's good for weight loss, it's good for social, you know, sociability if you want to meet other people who are smoking. So you can actually craft a purpose statement around why smoking is good. But the, the key is actually the impact. Okay. So the more you do of this. Actually yes, there's, there's some benefits around social anxiety that are weight loss, but you're probably also going to die of cancer. So doing like the, the impact and outcome measurement would then help you redefine that purpose piece. And I think your, you know, what you've done at AUBA is a great example of impact led. It's like I said, we are solving a problem from day one, whereas there's many B Corps who meet the criteria who, you know, we are a better business, but we're not really focused on solving a specific. Which is where the impact business models come to play. And I just think, yeah, you're a great example where we had a. A real deep change that we're trying to make from day one, and we're going to build a business around it. So your type of business is the one that typically sails through B Corp, because from day one you've gone, yeah, we're kind of doing this as opposed to like you say, look, we want to do more good, but we haven't really been thinking about it in that way. So we're going to have to put a lot of changes in the business to get us to that point. So kudos to you guys for doing it from day one.

Yeah. And well, thank you very much. But I think it's the visionaries at the very beginning of Orba who wanted to do good to begin with. You know.

Being a business for good and having positive impact was just the crux of it. And then we realized that there were actually, There was actually like an organization out there that would recognize that.

B Corp. Give me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually, you know, it was really quite enjoyable going through the, through the assessment, the assessment phase. And as B Corp has grown, it's just. Yeah. So proud to be B Corp. So proud to be part of the, part of the community. And we have collaborated with so many other B Corps and it's got that, like, it's a community. There's. There's just help and encouragement and sharing of ideas and sharing of thinking. You know, there's not this competitive kind of vibe whatsoever. Let's share our followers, let's share our products, let's share this and share our good times. You know, it's been really cool collaborating with some awesome B Corps out there in New Zealand. Yeah.

Nice. And I mean, hopefully that will be a springboard for you into the rest of the world, you know, is to connect in through the networks.

Definitely, definitely.

You know. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you sort of breeze through through B Corp. Yeah.

High achiever since day one.

High achiever. But I think, look, also, it was.

These guys were. We were all pretty lucky that I was in the middle of studying a Master's in sustainable development, you know.

Lucky or was it meant to be?

You know, maybe it was meant to be those stars aligned, you know, and there are a lot of. There are a lot of businesses And a lot of organizations out there that really want to, to be impactful and be better and just don't really have the knowledge, skill set to kind of know where to begin or what to do or how to create their own roadmap based on their activities and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah. So I think Orbit was quite fortunate.

There as well and I think that's where I find B Corp is a useful tool for that because a lot of people, I don't know where to start and they think, oh definitely is this, oh it's this unattainable, like you know, sacred cow. We never will never be a B Corp, but actually just have a go look at the framework and then start working towards it or get some help.

You don't have towards it.

It's.

Yeah, yeah. I mean you don't have to pay to register and have a look at the BE impact assessment and look at the criteria and get your thinking cap on and BE like, oh, that's criteria for environment, that's criteria for community. We could start thinking about these things that, you know, so it's a great tool to go in and have a look around and kind of start mapping out what, what is, what are areas that you know, you could improve for your business. Yeah, agree.

Yeah. So talking of which, so you, like you said, you kind of reduced your time currently at Orba. I think when we last chatted you're so, you know, you've done a lot there. So let's, you know. Yeah, Chapeau, as the French would say. So what are you up to now? You're still hanging out with Auba obviously because you're deeply connected to the organization on a familial level as well as others. But yeah, what are you up to currently? You're working in the sort of world of sustainability.

Yep, absolutely. So back in, back in August I joined the team at MORPHM Environmental in their Wellington office which has been absolutely fantastic. Morphem is a super cool organization, potentially be court material.

And a lot of MORPHM team are based up in Auckland so you've got a bit of a smaller team down here in Wellington and yeah, just fantastic group of water engineers, ecologists, wetland management projects. Just really, really super cool. Yeah, super cool stuff. And so I joined their sustainability team in August to help grow.

Grow kind of our service offering how we want to go about it. What does it look like for Morphem? Sustainability underpins everything that Morphem does within. You know, doing good and seeing positive impact from, from projects So I say sustainability team. I consider everybody at morphm to be part of the sustainability team. But yeah, so it's just been a bit of a, bit of a great last five and a half months of kind of developing sustainability strategy for morphm and consulting services.

Nice. And so are we going to see because of all this water ecology work doing, is Orba suddenly going to make a range of Wellington boots?

Hey look, I think because this rubber, the, the rubber sole is so groundbreaking, you know, as soon as we get some really solid compostability stats out there and how long, like what the exact process is and how long it's going to take there, the, the use for that type of rubber is endless because it is a bio rubber. It doesn't have any chemicals in it. So that will be interesting. But there you go. But what we are looking forward to is I noticed that there's a lot of environmental criteria in the B impact assessment and some of that stuff. Organizations and businesses might not really have a clue how to go about preparing metrics on their environmental performance. That's definitely something that, that we offer at morphm, helping businesses kind of go through and be like, well, let's create environmental policy. What are your environmental objectives? What are your impacts? How can we address your impacts? How big is your organization and do you have lots of environmental impacts throughout your value chain? Is an environmental management system something that could be looked at? So all of those cool kind of environmental sustainability geeky stuff that I love?

Yeah, I think it's fair to say first time around, you know, most of our clients, they get to the environmental stuff and most people are, yeah, I'd say most people, well, companies of a decent size have possibly engaged an organization to do some carbon work, but when it comes to water consumption, waste management, energy use, they're like, yeah. And I think the thing that's tough is for, you know, a large number of companies, they're maybe in a shared office or they might rent one floor of a, you know, a tower block and the landlord, you know, they're not spitting out the data on an individual level. So it's interesting to see what, what you see, but whether there's going to be more pressure on landlords and building owners to be able to go, actually I do need to be able to say, you know, more for me are using this amount of water because they, they want to know what they're using. Yeah, I think, I think that this is the next. The two areas that we see that most people need help on are the environmental side of things and then supply chain and, and within that environmental impact supply chain because, you know, if, if you have got a product and, and it. Well, as you will know with Orba, you know, what's the, what's the, what's the impact on biodiversity of your supply chain? What's the impact, environmental impact or waste impact of your supply chain? And most people.

Absolutely.

I, I buy all our stuff off a guy called Dave in Auckland and he seems like a really nice guy, but I don't know where he sources all the stuff.

Stuff wrong. Exactly.

We'll go talk to Dave and see what Dave knows. Yeah.

And you can't manage what you don't measure and so impact assessments, environmental impact assessments, sustainability assessments, supply chain assessments. So, yeah, there's, there's definitely growing acknowledgement of its importance and growing demand. And look, there's a lot of quick wins too, because it doesn't have to sound too daunting, a lot of quick wins in a lot of cases.

But I think there's definitely going to be a bit more pressure on aspiring B Corps when the new BIA standards come out. For sure. I assume there's new mandatory minimums within the environmental criteria.

Which is a great thing. That's really good. Mandatory minimums across the board. I've got to be a really, truly sustainable business. Yeah.

Part of a focus group for the update of the standards. And I need to actually go and read in a bit more depth about the updated standards, but my understanding is certainly one of them under the environmental is, you know, circularity will be a minimum requirement. So.

Wow.

So some of it is going to be really stepped up. It's interesting. I'm. I'm still on the fence a little bit about the updated requirements. I know that want to keep B Corp as, you know, a rigorous tool, but I keep coming back to the fact we're sitting at 0.01% of companies globally are currently certified B Corp. So we. Are we going to raise the bar too high and make it unachievable for too many people.

Or. Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, it's way above my pay grade. But my, my kind of gut feel is that the, there's a middle ground of companies who could squeak in as a B Corp. They get the benefit of that. They recognize that doing good is good for them and their business and their stakeholders, which then means they want to go further down the journey as opposed to now. It might just be like, well, there's no point trying because that's just too hard or will the psychology be. And maybe this is where David from Hardwired can tell us is the psychology. Wow, this is a challenge. We're going to step up and we will meet that bar. Don't know.

Yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting. That's a. Interesting stat. Did you say 0.01?

It's about 0.0. So there's about just under 8,000b corps globally and on a Google search that I've done, there's about half a million businesses in New Zealand and the type. Whatever the total number was, it's about 0.01% of the global for profit business community. I mean, and that's probably not including some countries where there's no data on how. I mean how many limited businesses are there in, I don't know, Burkina Faso? I've, I doubt there's a register for that. Possibly, you know, there's going to be a whole bunch of areas of the world that just don't have a company register of every limited company maybe. So it's possibly less than that. But it's, it's that we're not even at 1% and my fear is we ratchet this up too hard and people just go, it's not worth it. You know, yes, it's great. If we can get it, we might get some benefits but the, you know, the challenge of getting it is going to be overwhelming for us so we just won't bother. And that's my fear. But I'll know more next week having. Having been in the focus group. So.

Yeah, and for developing economies.

Businesses, business growth and developing economies that would never be able to achieve something like B Corp status. It's almost like we have to have tiers of, of B Corp based on, you know, region and economic. Socio. Economic.

I mean there is, there's kind of two assessments that you take currently based on developing versus developed. So. And that does take some factors into consideration.

Yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting. I think the heart, the heart's in the right place. Like, yeah, we need to make this.

Yeah, definitely robust.

But let's not lose. Like I say, it's, it's like when back in the 90s when the labor government under Tony Blair was trying to get elected. I remember it was one of those phrases just stuck in your mind. They, they talked about in the, in the media how it was the battle for white van man. Like the typical bloke who's a tradie, who drives A white van. He. That was the swing voter that both parties needed to appeal to. And I kind of feel like that's what we're at risk at losing is that swing voter, white van man who's like, yeah, I could be. I could be convinced that I need to do better in my business around social, environmental. But if it's too hard for me to start doing it, then I'll, Yeah, I'll. I'll wait another two years. Whereas I think at the minute B Corp is, it's. It's a hard bar. You know, you look at the number of people.

Yeah, it is. It totally is. It's robust.

It's achievable if you do the work to get what you need to do. So it's like, at the minute, I kind of think it's. It's at a pretty good level where some people still don't make the cut, but you can do it if you make changes.

Look, I know this space. I know the sustainability space. And I thought the process was rigorous and the criteria was great and not too, Too much need for improvement to be fair. So I was a bit surprised to see that these new standards were coming. And so it will be interesting to see how that all kind of pans out. But, yeah, I mean, I'd love to see more B Corp. And I think what's going to really push the movement is whether it's consumer driven and.

When consumers start absolutely demanding that they only want to buy from B Corp. And, you know, look, if it's not a robust program. And I have heard a couple of times from people, oh, that B Corp stuff. I don't know if it's. I don't know if their bar is high enough. You know, it sounds like a lot of organizations can just get in and not do the mahi. And I'm like, no, I've been through the process. It's pretty rigorous. So, yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting. I just want to see it grow. And so hopefully, hopefully, incredibly stringent standards and criteria don't inhibit that. Yeah, that's all I can hope.

Yeah. It's a fine line, I think, between, you know, scaling the movement. We used to have this conversation when I was hanging out with the team at what is now Coco, but used to be called conscious consumers. It's like, you know, what if we got McDonald's on the platform? If we could change McDonald's by half a percent in terms of how they perform socially and environmentally, the impact that that would have versus Jillian's, you Know, gourmet juice store who's absolutely maxed out but can only sell 10 juices a day. Like the both, both, both is having an impact, but you can, you can move the dial. And I think that for me is the key is moving the metadile more than the micro dial of little small startups doing their thing like we need them, but it's like we also need to change it at that big level. And I just recorded another podcast earlier on today where Mike from Brightly was saying about how, you know, he kind of connected to B Corp because Patagonia, he sort of go, well, this is the thing, like we need more brands. And I think Orbit is going to be one of those brands that people connect to it because maybe they're just, I mean like I say, it's a great looking shoe, it performs well, so people are going to recommend it. I mean I recommend it to everyone. And if people say, oh, those are, those are cool shoes, where are they? Oh, and then again, they're Orbis. They're like the most sustainable shoe. They're a B Corp, they're amazing. So I think you, you will be ultimately part of that global mix of companies that's telling a really cool story that people connect to and then they go, okay, B Corp. Yeah, I get it. Okay, where else are the big. Oh, that peanut butter in my fridge has got that B. That little B in the circle.

Yeah.

Oh, my bank's got to be with us. Okay, I'm connecting some dots here. So I just kind of think, I think my personal opinion is. Yeah, I think it's robust enough and I think if we put it into overdrive now and got more. If we, even if we got to 5% of the global business community as a B Corp, you'd then have enough interest and people would go, okay, yeah, let's actually take it further.

That's my, yeah, that's my theory. I don't know. That would be.

That's willing to be proven wrong.

It sounds, it sounds like a sensible theory. And I would tend to agree. I would tend to agree.

Well, I'll see if I get a chance to pipe up on my focus group and yeah, get shot down or not. I'll let you know if there's no more podcasts after this one, then people will know.

Yeah, for sure.

And so, yeah, what's sort of coming down the line at Orba? Have you got any insights as to what's happening there?

Colors.

Colors.

Yeah, colors. Colors using non toxic plant based dyes. Colors are next For Orba, little bit more testing on quality control.

Covid definitely impacted some quality control issues.

At the factories in Indonesia.

So tightening that up, literally tightening up the weaves of the uppers.

Yeah, kind of just find, find tweaking and getting some, getting some investment to put into.

Expansion in range and then expansion in market. So overseas. Yeah, working on that.

And you may or may not be able to divulge, but are you looking at like crowdfunding as an option or just looking for institutional or possibly a.

Bit of everything, actually. I'm glad you brought that up. Oh, my goodness. There is a pledge me campaign happening right now. It's been.

About two weeks. It's been running for about two weeks.

And that is to bring the black Orba ghost to the market. So, yeah, asking for a dollar deposit from all of our Orba fans who want a black ghost. And that lets us know how many we manufacture so we don't run into overdrive of manufacturing and contribute to waste. So it's a bit of a kind of exploring, exploring this kind of system.

To see how that could potentially work in the future.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We see it as kind of building efficiency into our manufacturing.

So head on over to sort of Tesla.

Yeah, yeah, actually, yes, indeed. Yeah, it's an interesting model and hopefully, hopefully we'll win.

Yep, I have no doubt you'll win. I mean, yeah, be interesting to see how you go in the more, you know, in the broader investment world. Because all the evidence we see from reports, and some anecdotally, is that investors are increasingly wanting to, to put their money behind innovative brands that are solving a problem. So, yeah, maybe do an update when you've got all your cash and you can tell us how, how it went.

Lots, lots of growth in impact investment funds. Lots of growth and impact investment and a lot of criteria. And a lot of these impact investors, they're very stringent and they like seeing B Corp, you know, sometimes that's top of their list. And so, yes, a lot of growth in impact investment funds and even, you.

Know, locally with the banks you look at, you know, Kiwi bank, bnz, Anz have all got, yeah, small to medium business loans in the market that if, and certainly with Kiwi bank, if you're a B corp, you get a better rate, interest rate on your, on your loans. So the lights are on and burning brightly in the investment community. And for me that's, you know, that was always a signal when the money people get it, you know, that this shit's real.

Absolutely. It was an awesome signal. It was a fantastic signal. Yeah. If the money people get it. Well, they haven't poked holes in it so no, yeah, it's definitely a signal. Definitely a signal. I know. Yay.

And any areas of sort of impact improvement that all was looking at or do you feel like you're pretty maxed out on the, on the good that you're doing?

It's going to depend on growth. It's definitely going to depend on growth. And so right now we're kind of at this little bit of a stage where there's manageable growth. We're still in one market so everything that we've kind of implemented, it's easy to, it's easy to track. Our supply chain hasn't changed, it hasn't grown.

And I think it's. Yeah, when we, when we start incurring exponential growth.

Praying for exponential growth, then, then it's going to be staying on top of that and managing. Managing growth. Managing growth for sure in a sustainable way. So but we have the foundations in place to, and the systems in place to, to manage that and to track that. And so yeah, feeling, feeling, feeling pretty safe with that I think.

And I think that that's the key, you know, is having that sustainable platform to be able to build on and not because it's that it's that balance between sort of purpose and profit or revenue and impact. There's no point having a really big flash in the pan of impact and then you guys fall over. It's. You've got to kind of build the two so that you can have that long term positive contribution rather than overwhelming your supply chain by saying, hey, we've just got a million orders in the US and then they have to compromise you. You know, you have a poor quality product, it fails. Clients are like these shoes are rubbish. Not buying those again. And then yeah, the potential for the impact you had is completely gone. Yeah. So the joys of a startup in the full purpose.

The joys of a startup. The joys of a startup. And also running compostability trials. Yeah. And we finally got some more because they're expensive too. I mean all this testing that we, that we're doing to, to.

Meet our claims and.

You know, find the exact end of end of life solution for Orbas. It's not cheap and it's, it takes time. You can't compost something in 24 hours. Yeah. So.

Yeah, next on, next on the testing agenda is Worm Farm for sure. So working on that and yeah, different, different processes. Thankfully, thankfully it's Kind of a scene that's growing. Waste management is definitely a little behind in that kind of regard when it comes to, you know, consumers are wanting these products that are compostable and biodegradable and meet all these claims, but where the heck do they go? The end of the day, they go in the rubbish.

And then they don't do what they're supposed to do. Because landfill just isn't the environment that decomposes products and materials. So, yeah, a lot of education and a lot of infrastructure still needed in that waste space, for sure.

It's definitely feels like that's the next frontier. It's, you know, you look at all the packaging. Yeah, it's biodegradable, compostable, and then. Yeah, but it's still microplastic and it's not really combustible. And, you know, is it compostable in New Zealand? Yeah, so, yeah, that's. But I guess, yeah, you know, we try, you know, there. I think it feels like there's enough people now pushing in the right direction to try and make. Make it happen, and it. It'll come.

The conversations are being had. The conversations are being had. I have this conversation all the time with tons of different people. So, yeah, the conversations are being had. And that's. That's where we start, you know.

Yep. And I think we'll all be looking back when we're all living on Mars, in the colony on Mars, whether Elon has in plan for us, and we'll go, oh, Jillian, do you remember that time in. In, you know, 2020 when you were having conversations about biodegradable, you know, plastics or. Or rubber, combustible rubber, and people are like, oh, what a stupid idea. Now look at. Everyone's wearing biodegradable rubber helmets. You know, I think. I think it's interesting because we're right in the middle of this transition period, and I think there's a bunch of us, you know, who are in the B corp world who are doing. Who are trying to push the boundaries and do all this stuff, and I don't think we understand quite what we're. What is actually happening. And I think it'll only be in 20 or 30 years time. We'll look back and go, man, that. What a ride that was. And can you believe it took us five years to convince people that, you know, they shouldn't be doing this? Oh, what a crazy idea. I mean, I look back and think, you know, yeah, not even. Well, it's getting longer now, but maybe, you know, what was it in the 60s and 70s, a GP would quite often give you a prescription for cigarettes. And you look at that now and you just go, how insane is that? Like a doctor would tell you to smoke for your health. And I just think there's a bunch of things that we're doing today that we'll look back or go, I don't believe it took us, you know, plastic.

Yeah, plastic is going to be in that conversation. You know.

Plastic and petroleum based. Anything is going to be in that conversation. In, you know, hopefully. Hopefully it doesn't take us too, too long to get to that space where we're like, what on earth did we do? Why did we make plastic for 60 years?

Yep.

That was dumb, you know. Yeah. But the conversations are being had.

Yep.

We'll get there, we'll get there, we'll get there. Yep.

Cool. Oh, well, it's Friday afternoon. You probably want to go and have a glass of wine or a beer or a sherry or whatever.

Well, I live right next door to a pub, so that's good planning.

Shout out to the Long Beach Cafe. And why can I Beach. Nice.

Hey, look, we're looking for a sponsor for the podcast, so if they're Keith.

Yeah, no, they're fantastic. And they brew their own beer and everything. They're just super cool. They've got a huge veggie garden out in the back that they use to make all of their food and it's just a cool, cool place. Yeah.

Making me want to go there.

Well, if you're ever passing through cafeteria.

I feel like we should. I should try. I don't get to. I get to Auckland more than anywhere. It's Christchurch in Auckland. Wellington. We've got a few clients in Wellington. But, yeah, I just, I just, I rarely go there, so I know I need to make the effort. I'll come, I'll come up and we'll try some of the local beers and.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, for sure.

So if people want it. Well, people go and buy some bloody Orbit shoes. What's the website? What's the website address for people to go and buy some more shoes and maybe pledge for the. For the black ones.

Orbashoes. Eco.

Nice.

Dot Eco. We're a dot. Eco.

That's so cool.

Yeah, and that wasn't cheap.

You're just pushing the boundaries everywhere, aren't you? Is that from like Ecuador or something? Is that, Is that, Is that what it is? Or is it actually.

It's eco. It's not eco. It's actually an eco movement. It's a thing It's a, it's an eco domain movement.

It's not. Not from Ecuador because I think there's this ECU or. I know some people used to do that. They used to find a country that had that like, you know, South Africa is dot code or ZA and whatever. So it's like go and find the thingy that resembles your brand. But yeah, basically you're just a trailblazer everywhere. It's.

The dot eco family. Yeah, nice.

But yes, everyone go buy some shoes. If you want some help on your environmental management system or your environmental stuff as a B Corp or want to be B Corp, then yeah, get in touch with, with Gillian and Wolfen. But I mean, genuinely, you are just one of the big hopes that I'm just like, yes, you're just like nailing it. And I have no doubt global domination is coming your way. If it doesn't, it says more about humanity than you.

That's great. I know you're always singing, you're always singing your praises and I really, really appreciate it because you've got a really great audience and a really growing audience. So we super, super appreciate it.

Yeah, well, you know, I wouldn't support good people doing the. Doing the right stuff. And you are 100 that. So, you know, go you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Now go and get a beer.

Hopefully it's a. So it's better be a Sawmill beer. Hashtag B Corp. Just saying. And if they don't stock Sawmill Beer in your, in your pub, you need to have a conversation with them.

They brew their own beer.

All right, we'll just get one bottle of Sawmill for you every now and then.

Yeah, okay, that's what I'll do. Yeah, I used to play gig gigs up at the Sawmill Cafe, actually.

Oh, there you go.

Back in the day.

I think we've got Mike and Kirsty coming on as guests in the near future. So.

Cool.

I'll get. I'll get the. Get the real background on you.

That was a long time ago. That was a long time ago.

See if they remember.

Yeah, I've always been well behaved.

And on that note, awesome.

Hey, thanks so much. You have a great weekend and thanks.

You too, Tim. Awesome. Thank you so much for the opportunity to have a chat.

Pleasure.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp, how to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.