#89 Helen Townsend - putting the Sustained Fun back into the toy industry

Hey, Kia ora shamay. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast with me, your host, Tim Jones, that BE Corp bloke. Thank you as always to our regular listeners, viewers, watchers, subscribers, subscribers, what have you. You know how this rolls. You listen to probably way bigger podcasts than mine and even, even they are begging for likes and subscribes. So I feel like I am well within my rights to beg for likes and subscribes because the more likes and subscribes we get, we might get some money for the podcast and then we can get some really cool stuff. I don't know, like lights and cameras. Who knows? Give it a go. It could be amazing. Anyway, with me today, I have got the amazing Helen Townset. G', day, Helen. How's it going?

Good. Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me on. This is exciting, I reckon.

And this is the second time we've spoken today on Zoom. That's how crazy today's been. It's like. It's like London buses. We haven't seen each other for six months and then twice in one day on Zoom. But that's how.

Lifeless withdrawal symptoms. Exactly.

We've got to make the most of it. So for people who don't know who Helen Townsend is and you know, there can't be that many of them, but for people who don't know who you are, who are you and what do you do?

Okay, well, I am Helen and I am the co founder of Sustained Fun, which is the world's first climate change focused toy company.

Very cool. And you have one of your little friends on the wall behind you there. This is Mr. Or Mrs. Eco Splat.

Yeah, it's. I just refer to it as it.

Quite threatening considering it's looking at me.

It looks like for people who aren't watching the video, it's. There's a little. Well, you can explain what it is, but there's a little creature over Helen's right shoulder that looks like it could at any minute jump on her head.

Yeah, well, it's a reusable water balloon, but it has eyes and arms and legs and a little smiley mouth. And I put it there and now I feel like if it moves, you have to let me know.

It'll start slowly peeling off. Do you remember that? You could get those toys as a kid I had like those little octopus toy that you threw on the wall and then it would slowly come down and it was great for the first one and then as soon as it hit the carpet, it got dog hair and everything else. On it. It was just like, yeah, I think I'm done with that now.

Yeah. The one use wonder at least clean house.

Yeah.

Which unlikely.

Unlikely if there's a child in it. Yeah. Anyone, Anyone? Anyone who's got a really clean house and a child is a psychopath. As far as I can.

The child may not be real.

Yeah, yeah. A robot child to go with the robot vacuum cleaner and the robot lawnmower and all the other robots that you can now add into your house.

So sustained fun. So yes, it talk. Talks about what? Explain to us. Obviously, like I say, you got the reusable water balloon, which if people haven't got hold of a reusable water balloon yet, they don't know what they're missing. But yeah, just talk to us a little bit about what, what the sort of products you're doing and what's the general vibe behind the company that.

Yeah, yeah. So people who don't know us as sustained fun will hopefully know us as Eco Splat because that.

The product that we started with and we knew that there would be other products but we didn't know what they were yet. This was a couple years ago. So we started with Ecoslat and I have some here, the red one is missing. I don't know where that could be. So Eco Splat. Reusable water balloons. So instead of single use water balloons which you throw once and then you have to spend hours picking them up off the lawn and then create billions of bits of rubbish every year and you have to keep spending money on them. These are reusable water balloons. So you dunk them in water, you throw them and you can throw them multiple times in a water fight. So your water fight can last all day and then you just hang them on the lunch and dry and you're good to go for the next day. So we started this company in Ecosplat because.

My colleague Anthea Ival, her daughter was just getting into water fighting kind of ages and she was like, there's no way I am buying disposable regular water balloons. So we need to come up with something that she can have water water fun without all the rubbish.

Because I think this is the thing because we won't name names, but we talked about a name earlier on in our other zoom call. But we won't, we won't name them. There are brands of water balloons available all around the world and many of them now have claims on them that the. You know, yes, they're made of plastic, but it's biodegradable plastic. So it's o. Yeah. And that's sort of part of the problem, isn't it? Because yes, it kind of might be biodegradable, but it's still microplastic and it's still crap for the environment.

Yeah. So firstly, balloons are made of latex, not plastic.

Right.

And latex is a natural substance from a rubber tree when it comes out of the tree. But by the time you've made it into balloon, it's had colors and additives and plasticizes, it's been vulcanized, which sounds terrifying.

But you know, to make it stretchy and to make it so that it forms the shape of a balloon. So I want to go all of that stuff in a balloon. It's not biodegradable anymore. It's not a natural product. It's, it's. Oh well, it's one step away from being a piece of rubbish. And if you've got packaging and other things with your water balloons, then it's just more rubbish. Even if they are made from recycled plastic and they're recyclable, which is, they're not really.

It's just more rubbish. And then you play with them for like five minutes and then what, you spend three hours picking up all the pieces?

Well, you, you say that people spend three hours, but most people don't, don't pick up the pieces. And that's the thing. You see it, you know, it's summertime here in New Zealand and it's not uncommon that you'll see the detritus of a water balloon fight in a park or something. And there's just thousands and thousands of those little pieces of latex, not plastic.

So we did some numbers. So it's about, we reckon it's about 700 pieces of rubbish per water fight with, with single use water balloons, which is ridiculous. And people have a lot of water fights and. But some people have no water fights because their parents are like, I'm not buying you those, they're terrible for the environment. So we thought this was a really good toy to start with, to start changing the toy industry and making it more sustainable. Because the fun with a reusable water balloon far outweighs the fun with something. You have to pick up all the rubbish from 100.

I mean, yeah, because we've, we've got some. And yeah, it's certainly like there's no, if anything there's like less disruption in terms of, you know, water fight tactics. It's not like, oh, I'm out of balloons, can we all stop while I go and fill my next ones up. As long as you've, you've both got access to, you know, a source of water, you can just constantly be revitalizing.

Way more dynamic, way more fun and way more interesting because if someone throws one at you, you can just throw it straight back.

And there is that as well. Yeah, you get to. It's always like dodgeball. If you catch it, it's coming straight back at you with interest and they make a very satisfying, satisfying splosh, splunk, splat, sort of, you know, and, and, and yeah, you don't sort of have plastic latexy bits sticking to your face. So, yeah, it's, it's a win, win, win. So, so yeah, it's quite cool that you sort of had that insight. I think that, you know, it's how a lot of problems are identified. It's, it's, it's something in front of us. It's that common refrain of, you know. We've interviewed.

Perry Drysdale from Untouched World and she got into it starting off by making clothes for her kids at a wall. And she realized, oh, there's a, there's an opportunity here. So I think it's, it's that classic sort of startup vibe of this is. I, I think I can do this less shit or significantly better. So let's have a go. But before that. So you. Because I, I know you as the rubbish whisperer and I just thought me, I, I just always imagined you walking around shouting because you were rubbish at whispering, but that wasn't the intent behind the marketing angle. So. Because, yeah, that's where we, I first met you was when. Yeah, you were sort of more generally around environmental products per se. Tell people what the, what was the rubbish whisper about?

Other than I heard so many puns about rubbish.

Such as, well, there's the. Do you whisper to rubbish? Are you a terrible whisperer? Yes. That's enough.

So the Robert Whisperer, I started in 2013 and that was making reusable produce bags. And so 2013, there was only one other company in New Zealand selling reusable produce bags. They were totally revolutionary.

And I had to explain to people why they might want a reusable bag because people like. But they give me free plastic ones from the supermarket. Yeah, I know, that's, this is the point.

So, so I started making those and then the rubbish whisper grew quite a lot, actually. I ended up having like, like 13 sewing contractors making produce bags in New Zealand. They weren't all full time, but like, it Was at least three full time people, I think.

So that I.

Introduced paper straws to New Zealand and this was like two years before the turtle with the straw up its nose. And I walked around New Zealand cities trying to sell paper straws to cafes and restaurants. A lot of them were, most of them like, no, they're like, why would I want this? Like, there's so much. We use so many straws. Why would I want to switch from plastic to paper? I was like, that is the point again.

The clue. The clue was in. Yeah. The fact that there's loads of them going in the bean. Yeah.

So the rubbish whisperer became.

Like, we had a lot of products. We made sandwich wraps, which, man, they are really hard, really technical to make.

And what else did we do? I don't know. All kinds of. All kinds of things. And so that, that ran well. Finally I closed it because we swapped to sustained fun in 2020.

And now last year, like plastic straws are banned and thin plastic produce bags are banned. And yeah, so it kind of was part of that whole grassroots movement to like, I guess bring awareness to the single plastic items which weren't even on the agenda in like 2012 and 2013. So it had massive impact. It was hard work. I hadn't run a business before.

But yeah, that's what I did for, I guess, five years.

Nice. Yeah, I think so. It feels you and I've had a bit of similar. Well, I think there's a lot of people in the sort of business for good arena. You know, I, I first started talking to people about B Corp in 2014, you know, and there were two, two B Corps in New Zealand and less than a thousand or about twelve hundred globally. And you, you, I think you. It's hard to know, you know, every conversation that you had with someone about a paper straw, you don't know how much impact that might have ultimately had to them changing their mind. Because not everyone's going to see the potential or understanding the first time you have. I was listening to a podcast last night and they said like the second time, you know, the second and then the third and the fourth time somebody is like exponential. The, the, the chance that you will then change your mind the more you hear the message.

Yeah.

So. Because if, if one person says it, well, that person could be crazy and a real outlier. But if they say it and then my auntie says it and then my best mate says it and then I see it on the news and. Okay, right, okay, this is a thing now. And I think yeah. Don't underestimate the impact that you had of you traipsing around the country having those conversations because you, you were more than likely the first time the person heard that.

And I definitely was the first. Yeah.

Are there some towns you're now allowed back into or you still. Still banned from. From certain areas of the country.

I have a friend who used to go into the. Like, before I knew him, he went into like a cafe and in Wellington and he was like, I don't want to. I don't want a pe. Straw. I want a plastic straw. Because he was just, it was just winding them up. I don't care about the turtles. And I like customer.

Tough man. Yeah. So, yeah, don't, don't underestimate the impact that you probably had on that, you know, on that journey.

Yeah.

Yeah. But it's interesting when you look at other parts of the world still where, you know, plastic bags and plastic in general, it's like, yeah, how many, how many bags you want? Just like take, take 100. Right. It's all good. Yeah. Fun times. So what, what were you doing before all this? Like, obviously, just. So you just started a business out of nowhere. No business experience.

What were you doing before that? And, and, and I guess the supplementary question was, well, what. What was the stroke of genius and, or insanity that was like, I know I'm going to start a business and go and tell people to change drawers.

Yeah. I was working at the Royal Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh. So as you do. As you do. So I was working there on a project. This isn't irrelevant, but it's super interesting. So I'm just going to tell you, go for it. I was working on a project to digitize plant specimens. When they, you know, when they press the plant specimen and they. That's used as identification for that species. And botanists went out from Europe in the 1800s and they went to Africa and other places and they took all the specimens back. And so now botanists in Africa don't have access to their most important specimens because they were. They were taken back. So there was this project to put them all online, and I was part of that project and I worked on that for a few years.

So no interest in business at all.

And I wanted to do science, but I didn't want to do postgrad. And I. There's. It's hard to move up in science if you don't like research.

It's kind of. Kind of necessary. So one of the. So after I'd worked in Edinburgh for A few years I ended up in Kathmandu, in Nepal. And they were just joining this, this project to put plant specimens online.

And so I went there for six months to.

Help them set up their program. And that was super interesting because we're setting up a digitization project in a building without any power.

Without any Internet.

You think that might have been a conversation starter?

They got solar, but there was no Internet. So it was. Yeah, I used to have to go out 45 minutes on the bus and start setting up the project. And then if I ran into a problem, which I did because I'm not an IT person, catch the bus all the way back, wait for the hour of power that we handed our house, quickly go on the Internet, look for a solution, wait for the next day, go back and try it out.

I did that.

That was committed.

Yeah.

But the thing with Nepal and Bangladesh, where I also spin some time, is that there's no centralized rubbish or even localized rubbish collection. And they've moved really fast from a society without any plastic to convenience based plastic items. But there's nowhere to put the rubbish. So it just ends up on the street and then it ends up in the river. And you're really confronted by all of this plastic. And it was when I was there that I thought, this is not, this is not good. And I know that in New Zealand we produce and use so much more plastic, but because it's all taken away, we never have to confront it. It's never top of our mind because it just vanishes. So when I came back to New Zealand.

I. I had finished that job, I didn't have another job. And I was like, ah, we should. Something needs, someone needs to do something about this. And I was like, ah, it'll have to be me because no one else is doing anything. So I kind of, I mean, I didn't really. I just set up the Roche Whisperer because, I don't know, it's. I wanted to. I didn't want to run a business, but I wanted to provide a solution for a problem. And running a business was a way of doing it without having to get another job and then doing it on the side. So that's how I accidentally ended up in business. And turns out in New Zealand's really easy. Just start a business. You just register and pay like 60 bucks and then you're in.

Frighteningly. I was actually thinking about that this morning. It's like people pay me money just because I have a business that I set up on the Internet. It's like, yeah, that's pretty wild where you sort of think, yeah, I was listening to a podcast. I listen to quite a lot of podcasts when I'm walking the dog. I listen to another podcast where they're talking about, you know, how in some. This one lady, she was from Africa and she was just talking about how it's almost impossible. So she's got. She lives in the us, but I think she's originally from Senegal and she was just talking about how to set up a business in Senegal. It's practically impossible and it has to almost be approved by the government. And then there's all these regulations about how you can hire people. And she said it's just absolute nightmare. Whereas, yeah, you, you forget how easy in, you know, the us, uk, Aussie, New Zealand. It's like you just go onto a website and go, I've got a name.

Yeah.

Do you have any experience?

No.

It's the first time. It's gonna be great, though.

I'm full of optimism.

But in 10 years, 10 years, I might know what I'm doing.

You watch me. Yeah, but I think that's. I think there's so many businesses that start particularly in the, in the business for good space, where it's like, well, someone needs to do something about this.

Yeah. You know, I really, really wanted someone else to do it. I didn't want to. And it were loads of products. It's all the stuff we do now. I'm like, someone really should do this. And then I wait for a while and no one does it.

I'm like, fine, all right, then I have to. Yeah. So, I mean, it sounds like, though, you've been, you've had a passion for the environment.

All your life. Like you've always been looking at that sort of world and, and conserving the, the, the, the, the environment. Is that. That be true to say?

Yeah, I mean, I didn't really think of it as conserving the environment. I just really like plants.

And ecology. So I, When I was, when I was young, like primary school, high school kind of age, my dad, he was a beekeeper and so he used to go out into, you know, the bush in farms near the bush to put his beehives out. And he used to bring home interesting things to show me, like, I don't know, interesting plant or a leaf or a cicada shell or skin or something.

And they, you know, they were, they were members of Greenpeace and Forest and Bird. And I was in the, the kcc, the Kiwi Conservation Club. We used to go, I don't know, on walks. I remember we went and looked down some frogs, which I probably didn't appreciate, but considering New Zealand frogs are so endangered, that was pretty awesome. And then at uni, I did. I did a degree in ecology and botany and things. And. Yeah, I just really like plants.

And I just feel.

Like, you know, now. Now it's acknowledged that there's a biodiversity crisis along with the climate crisis. But when I was at uni, it wasn't. And I remember thinking, why is nobody worried about that? Like, you know, you hear people about talking about, you know, polar bears, but it's not just polar bears. It's the, you know, it's like the collapse of insect populations. How when we. When I was a kid, like, you drive and your windscreen would be splattered with insects. And now nothing. There's not. There's nothing. And that is horrifying. And.

And it's the same fun as the way that we are helping that problem without. So Anthea's the same. She did micro. I mean, marine biology and also is not into research. So for us, sustained fun as a business that is designed to protect nature.

Nice.

Yeah.

In a way that you can kind of connect to without having to do too much research.

Yeah.

But obviously researching your products and what they're made of and.

Yeah, we love research. Like, the whole thing is built on research. We just want to read other people's research. Nice.

Not actually have to do it yourself. Yeah, yeah.

And other people's research is super interesting, but it's really hard to, like, convey to people because it's in a. In a research paper. And, you know, social media and marketing does not operate on a research paper.

Yeah.

Thing. So a lot of what we do is. Because everything we do is grounded in scientific research and a lot of what we do is taking a paper and putting it into one sentence that is still accurate. And that's pretty fun. We like. We like that.

Synthesizing.

Yeah.

Oh, there's always that music playing. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, I think. And that's a really, you know, I think the world needs that in the world of bloody twatter book and tick face, whatever they're called.

Like a chicken.

Yeah. When everyone's so. Yeah. You know, looking. Looking for content, but still starved of knowledge and wisdom, being. Being a conduit to maybe something a bit deeper in that world of. Yeah. Bollocks.

Yeah.

Basically.

Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. That sort of parental influence that's, you know, for parental Influence for good. I suppose that's that you.

Yeah, I think that.

I don't think I chose things for purpose. I chose things. I've always chosen things that are really interesting. But for me, what is really interesting also seems to have a purpose.

So. Yeah, I don't want to do something for him.

Yeah. Why would you? Yeah, other than research. Yeah, obviously.

Yeah.

So coming back. Yeah. To sort of sustain fund Eco Splat. So obviously, you know, a business built around an impact and it's. It's not. You know, in the world of B Corp, not every business has been built with impact in mind. Some of them, hey, we just had a business and we've now realized that we want to be a better business. And there's this framework and. But yeah, you. I think the really. For me, the really, really cool B Corps are the ones that are like, no, actually this whole thing is focused around solving a problem.

And so, yeah. So how did you come across B Corp? Where did that pop up on the radar?

Because obviously Sustained Fun is I came across B Corp with the Rubbish Whisperer. And it was probably that our circles sort of overlapped a bit.

Back in the day, so. And I, I. So the Rubbish Whisperer met all the B Corp standards as well, but.

Didn'T want to be a B Corp until everybody knew what B Corp was. Which I'm afraid probably didn't help B Corp if there's all these people hanging.

But when you're a small business, like, you've got limited funds to put towards certifications and things. So we wanted one certification that people knew about that would cover as much as. As we could. So when we came to Sustain Fun. So we set that up in 2021 and by then people knew who. What B Corp was and we were like, excellent, because we are ready to go, so. And because. So a lot of the things with B Corp are things that we do anyway, and we would do them anyway, but.

B Corp allows us to do them more formally, or actually formally. So, yeah, so we set up Sustained Fun using the B Corp framework so that it was embedded right from the beginning.

Nice. Yeah. I mean, who wants to be first in the party, Helen? You know, just. You just wait in the background doing your thing while the rest of us, you know, trying to create systemic change in the world. Better place.

It fits with our personalities really, doesn't it? I'll wait for you to go. And then.

You go first. You go first.

Classic.

It's typical. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you were. Yeah. I don't know what Number B Corp. You were.

I don't know. It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

It's not my metric anyway.

Yeah, it's always. It's curious to know. We can find out. But yeah, I think, yeah, you're one of those classic companies that, like, you say you were a B corp and everything already and yeah, you've kind of used the framework maybe just to tighten some nuts and bolts and just. Yeah, you use the framework as a guiding light rather than, okay, we need to transform. Transform the company. Because you are, yeah, such a.

So much easier to set up a company as the B corp from the beginning than retrofit later on.

100% particularly. Yeah. You know, the bigger and older the company is, you know, it's like, well, this is how we've done HR for the last 400 years or 30 years or however long it is, you might need to change that, but we don't want to or we're not sure how to. Yeah. So they're definitely easier.

Yeah.

And so what was the big journey like for you? Were there any. Obviously you built the company around a lot of it, but we were there. Were there any sort of highlights or surprises or.

I really enjoyed it. I found it really easy because of just the way that we are. So, so. And we. That we've been doing this kind of stuff for the previous sort of eight years, even if it wasn't recorded as B.

So, yeah, I really, I really enjoyed it. We. We did, yeah. So we set it up with, with B, but we hadn't been trading, so then we had to wait a year before we verified.

The only thing that I, we. I still don't know anything about this because we never got any feedback. But in the verification we went in with a, like, quite a high score and then we had our verification meeting and they're like, yep, yep, yep, yep, it's all good. Great. It's all good. And then our score dropped by heaps. But we never got any feedback. We didn't know if it was. If there's anything we could fix or if, if we'd done it wrong or anything. So it was still B Corp. Oh, what's happening? Are you still there?

Yep, I'm still here.

Sorry. Oh, my screen disappeared. Yeah, so we didn't. We never found out if there was something we could have done differently or we didn't have a chance to fix anything or if we'd done it wrong or who knows what happened. So that was a bit, A bit of a disappointment, but it Might have just been. It was in there. So it was a year ago and B Corp was really snowed under. Yeah, there was.

A bunch of new people starting a whole queue of things. So. Yeah, so that was a bit disappointing. The other thing that was really interesting was there's a question about who your suppliers are and about diversity of suppliers and whether your suppliers are companies owned by women or not. And it's really interesting because they had a minimum spend. It's something like 80% of your.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

What. What accounts for 80% of your.

Yeah.

Of your spend.

Yeah. So we decided we didn't really like that question because we have. So most of our product, most of our spend is the product which we have not that much control over who makes that. But the thing we do have control over is like all the small.

Companies we work with, like our photographer and our, you know, people who, you know, you know, all those little company accountants and all of that. But a lot of those, a lot of people use us one woman companies and so they don't. And we don't use them for like the biggest spend.

Yeah.

So. So we really wanted those companies to be counted as.

Female lead companies because like 100 bucks to a woman who set up her own company and is trying to grow it is way more important than $10,000 to multinational.

A big. Yeah, it's. Yeah. You know, B Corp's not perfect.

No. How would you measure, how would you measure these things?

Yeah, well, and in some ways, like service companies like mine are here as well because the majority of my spend goes to like Google for hosting, email and you know, LinkedIn Premium subscription and there's a few other tech platform. So when you start looking down at where we spend most of our money, it's with large companies that are monopolies that we have no real, you know, there isn't, you know, Helen's email, you know, Google suite provision based in Christchurch, where I can switch all my, you know, and there is no other LinkedIn. There is only the one LinkedIn. So yeah, it's, it's, in some ways it's sort of harder for smaller companies to do better on that supply chain stuff. Whereas in some ways the bigger companies have got more options and typically because they're the, they're the big mothership, you know, they have smaller companies feeling it. Yeah. I mean, it is all, you know, with the new draft standards coming through, I've had a quick look at some of them actually. Last year, night. Was it last night or night before last? Last Night. No, night before last. Because I've got a focus session on that at some point. Might be tomorrow or next week. Yeah. You know, they're trying to fix some of these things. Yeah. I mean, the other one is like, the geographic location because quite often, you know, you might be based in a fairly remote place and you're buying something from the closest place that you can buy it from, but it's not within the, you know, 80 miles, whatever it is, perimeter. But, you know, there are some. There is latitude around some of those points if you, if you can kind of have a conversation with the auditor. But yeah, it's not always. Yeah. I mean, it, it can sometimes come down to the auditor on the day and. Yeah, it's not always. Some of the questions are really black and white and some are nuanced and. Yeah. Comes down to how good your defense lawyer is.

Oh, I don't know if we need to go that far.

Generally, it's great. And there are questions that matters. Think about, you know, things we hadn't thought about before. And the government stuff was really good. So, you know, writing some of those policies and things. Yeah, it was really interesting. It made us. It helped us talk to each other about things that were important to us. Because. Because Anthony and I had worked together before. We knew that there were points that we, like, didn't really agree on. And so when we set it up, we're like, well, we want to make sure that when we get to those points, we don't have a fight.

Yep. So if you did, you could have had a water blade fight.

So it would have been a water blind fight.

This is how we're going to solve it in the, in the boardroom.

Yeah. So there were things like in our code of ethics, which we hadn't written and we. That was in, you know, we had them all, but we hadn't put down on paper. And so we got things. Like, for Anthea, it was really, really important that we didn't use the words warfare and bombs in our marketing. So it's in our code of ethics. And that's. For me, it was. I really, really didn't want to use debt to buy schemes because, like, we're selling toys. Like, we're not selling, I don't know.

Spare hearts or something like blood transfusions.

Yeah.

Like, we really don't want people going into debt to buy toys that cost, you know, 20 to $30.

Yeah.

So. So we put that in there and yeah. Moved on.

Nice. And so when did you, you certified? Last year. Was it the year before now?

Yeah, February last year.

That's it. Nice. So, coming up to. So pretty much one year anniversary and has it been. Yeah. Any notice any noticeable difference around you, the business, customers or anyone or just.

I don't know if it's had a. I mean, we're still so young, so it's hard to pin something down to whether it's because we're B Corp or not. But we've definitely had people, you know, have messaged us, they're like, oh, yeah, you're a B corp. Or I contacted you because you're a B corp. And people outside of the business industry going, oh, you're a B corp. Oh, that's really hard. Oh, well done. So, yeah, like, just.

It's a. I mean, it's a good way of getting. If people know what B Corp is, it's a good way of getting across your values and your purpose and things. So.

Yeah, totally. And I think that's. It's only increasing. I was talking to someone on our podcast last week. I think it might have been Mike from Brightly. You know, he, he, he connected to B through Patagonia. And so, you know, the more brands there are that are representing B Corp and talking about it, the more opportunities there are for people to connect to it, to go, either, what is this thing like, you know, Mike said, I, I saw this little bee in a circle and I was like, what is it? And then he researched. It's like, oh, this is quite cool. So, yeah, I think just the more companies, and particularly, you know, consumer companies like yours, which hopefully are getting into the hands of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people around the world, you know, they'll be able to go, oh, okay, this is. I vibe with this product because of what it's all about. This product has got this certification or this company's got this certification. Okay, that's cool. So, yeah, I think, yeah, again, don't underestimate the impact of, you know, literally the, literally the impact of each water balloon.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I haven't heard that one before, Tim.

I made that pun often myself.

Nice. There's lots of quite a few puns in the world of business for good, I find.

I, I think, yeah, supposed to be people.

If you like cheesy. Cheesy jokes.

Don't we all?

And so, I mean, how's business going? Obviously, you know, lean startup, how's the reception been? People. People getting it in general?

Yeah. I mean, there are so many people have a deep hatred for disposable Water balloons. So that's pretty exciting when they come and say that they've someone. A surprising number of people have been gifted water balloons and then they put them like in the top cupboard and won't let their children play with them and so delighted to have. Have eco splat.

Then they like. Yeah, they're really popular obviously before Christmas. We've just expanded into Australia this year so that's pretty exciting.

Nice.

And we've started a new brand called Wild Fixes which is to do with nature based solutions to climate change and people who are into nature based solutions for climate change are really, really, really excited. Excellent. So yeah, I think.

Yeah, if people are into. Are worried about toys and plastic and rubbish and sustainability and feel guilty because their kids are getting all the stuff or they're like don't want to buy it for them, you know that's. Yeah, that's for us that niche. So it's nice to be able to provide something so parents can buy things for their kids at Christmas and not feel guilty about it.

Yeah, 100% because yeah this, I mean, you know we've got an 11 year old so we're kind of through the toy sort of phase really. But it's still, still enough crap that kids want to buy.

Yeah. When you, I mean we, we did make use of toy libraries and stuff when she was smaller. That's a really cool slip. But it's still typically a plastic material but it's going to be, you know, possibly two generations of kids or more that might get the value out of it. So at least you're extending the life of it.

Have you thought about offering. It almost feels like like an amnesty you could do, you know, like come and, come and hand in your, your shitty latex balloons and we'll trade them for. They'll give you a discount on a. On your first set. You have done that?

Yeah.

Nice. Did that go well?

Envelopes full of water balloons.

Fantastic. And what'd you do? What do you do with them? Do you just have a.

We use them to take photos of single use water balloons. We didn't have to.

So your hands, your hands are free of blood.

Nice.

Yeah.

And so I suppose, I mean in terms of the impact that you're making, I mean it's a pretty obvious impact. It's around the reduction of the, of the plastic waste. But is there, is there any impact mistakes that you've made on the journey? Maybe perhaps with a rubbish whisper. It was maybe peaking too soon. But yeah. Where would have been some sort of Dead ends maybe that you've gone down to or areas that maybe didn't provide as much impact as you. As you hope they would.

Sometimes. Well, it's not a mistake because we wouldn't do it another way. But we have discovered that.

Reducing all of your carbon at source makes it really hard to report because people don't like that because you have nothing to report against. So you people like improvement. But we don't want to do it really bad so we can do it better.

Yeah, there's no point creating an artificially low base. Yeah, we're just gonna go. We're just gonna throw some toxic waste in the river this year so that next year we don't. We look like we're really good.

Yeah. So like, for example, we wanted to be zero carbon certified, but we don't produce enough carbon to qualify.

For one of the certifications. So it costs like, you know, thousands of dollars. And we're like. But we. It was like eight tons of carbon.

Yeah. Again, that's sometimes the challenge for the smaller business is you're treading so lightly that. Yeah, it's actually hard for you to.

Yeah.

We did make a mistake. So we. So this.

We purposely made these out of craft because then they'll stand out in the. The water toy aisle. So that was really great. And so then we did an activity book and we wanted it to match. So we may wanted to make a cover out of CRAFT as well. But it turns out craft is really hard to print on. And so he made these books. They're really, really ugly.

And when we showed them to people.

Like, yeah, we're good, thanks. Maybe, maybe it'll be like the ugly vegetable thing again. I think you're ahead of your time. But maybe go to the local library and suggest an ugly book section. Same result, tastes the same as the other veg. Just looks a bit ugly.

Yep. So that did not work. So this year we've swapped to just a normal colored cover.

Nice.

So, yeah, it doesn't always come out how you think it's gonna come out.

See if you've just done more research.

Oh, we do. We did that. We were so wrong.

Nice. I think, I think that's the thing. I think it's, you know, the reason I'm asking that question, because I think a lot of people just go, oh, well, you know, look, Helen is nailing it. She's got this great product. You know, it's just. It's the perfect product. You know, it's like. Well, yeah, but it's not you know, you see the finished, you see the finish end result, but you don't see all the iterations, the journey of it.

We made this way. We prototyped these way back in 2018 with a rubbish whisperer. But. And this, the size was wrong and the. It wasn't made quite right and we didn't have any packaging and then we did some packaging. We didn't like that. Well, we didn't get a printed book. Like, I've got a shelf full of like boxes made up with bits of A four. Like, should we do it this size? Should we do it this? But yeah, you never see that. It's just all like, ta da, here we are.

Yeah. I think quite often the Reese, you know, you can do research, but the book research quite often is different to what happens in the real world. And it's not until, you know, like, because we do workshops and training stuff as well as the B Corp consulting. And when, if I'm putting a new workshop together, you, it will look great, you know, when you're just looking through it, but it's not until you get in a room with 50 people and you're delivering it and you go, ah. That those slides are in completely the wrong order. Because now it makes sense you've actually done it. Yeah. So I think, yeah, you can only do as much as you can do to test, you know, offline before you actually put it into, into the real world to get real results.

You just have to take the plunge and.

Exactly that. You're never going to be. What is it? The guy, Reid Hoffman, the guy who started LinkedIn, he said, you know, you should be so embarrassed when you, when you look back at the first iteration, you should be so embarrassed that it saw the light of day, basically. Because you know that that means, you know, you're, you're pushing the right level of innovation. Because if, yeah, if it's perfect and it's the one that it will always be for the rest of your life, then you were too late. So.

Oh yeah, like, yeah, I mean we've changed the website a number of times. We started with. Well, with Ecosplat, we've just changed over to Sustained Fun is our main website that sells our brands through. And you know, logos have changed. Some logos had horrendous colors.

Well, they are. But you can't wait till it's perfect. Like, otherwise you'd never do it. You just got to go for it and, and hope for the best and then change it when you next can.

Exactly that.

Yeah.

There's so many, so many good ideas currently sat on someone's desktop or inside their head or in a notebook. So if that's. You just bloody do it. Get, get walking, get talking, get, get it out there. Because I think, particularly if you've got a bit. If you've got an idea that you think is going to make a positive contribution, it's almost like it's your duty to get that out rather than.

Right.

You tell them, come on, get it out there. You know, because yours could be the idea that we're all looking for. But, you know, whatever, whatever it is, it's like until you put it out there, you're not going to know.

No, we didn't know that. There's all these people who hated water balloons as much as they did until we made it.

Till he did it.

Yeah.

So we the first ones in the world to make that.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, that's pretty. That's cool.

I know.

So how did you go about designing it? Like, did you. Because they almost look like they're. It almost looks like a woolen, like crochet type thing. So how, how did you go about.

And said, hey, I've done this.

Yeah, pretty much. And I was like, sweet, please, let's go.

Nice. Nice.

Yeah.

Because it almost looks like a mitt, doesn't it? Almost looks like a kid. A child.

So the fabric is really absorbent, so it's stuffed with anything or anything. So, yeah, it's just choosing like, it took us a while, you know, to choose the right, right fabric and check is going to work and check it release any water and it's going to dry and things. So, yeah, there's always trials.

Yeah, it's all trials and tribulations. It's pretty much life really, isn't it?

Yep.

And so you're running a really cool little B corp. You're doing some good. You've got, you've got a good bit of impact going. Do you ever have any moments where, you know. Because obviously, you know, you're trying to scale up the business, you want to get it going. Have you had any moments where it's like, okay, look, we could take the money here, but actually it doesn't really vibe with our code of ethics or how we will run this thing. Yeah. Have you had any moments or crisis of conscience where you sort of had to take the money or have you just been pure of heart and. And gone? No, look, we're just going to stick to our. Stick to our knitting or stick to our. Our water blows.

Yeah.

And does that ever come up as a challenge?

It's really interesting because it was a little while ago that someone asked me about the challenges with balancing profit and purpose and I was just like, no, there aren't any. And that they like, we had this, we had a conversation about it. And then afterwards I realized that they didn't understand what I was saying at all. And I was like, oh, hang on, I must be saying this incorrectly because their conversation didn't go how? I mean, because they sort of thought that because we're so purpose driven, we must not be wanting to make a profit or we must not be very good at looking at the numbers or, or any of those things. It's like, no, no, no, we do all of that and we do all the purpose. But, but I think the, the question.

It was just a different way of thinking about it. So I don't consider that there is a conflict between purpose and profit because we wouldn't be doing this if there was no purpose. So it's not like we have a product and now we want to be more purposeful because we want to be a B corp. And so therefore we have to look at that product and think, how is it going to be better? And maybe we're going to lose 10% of profit margin or whatever. It's like this is what we're doing. And if, if the profit, if we make like, I don't know, a hundred dollars or when we could have made 105 or whatever, like really don't, like that's not an issue for us. But then I thought there is an example. So I have an example for you of this and I'll show you. So this is our new puzzle. So this is a puzzle that talks about the carbon cycle in the ocean. So it's got a really nice picture. It's got like value added stuff. It's got search and finds. It's got stuff about a little bit about the science. It's got storytelling prompts. So it's got lots of things for a family to do. So we were really pleased with this. And the puzzle box exactly fits the puzzle inside. And we were told when we made it that it was too small, the box was too small. And we were like, well, but it fits the puzzle. So we want to do it this size. And then we looked. So we did. We didn't just blindly go down the route of doing the size we wanted to. We checked out other puzzle box sizes. And there was another company who actually was, this was last year, I think and they were on the process of becoming B Corp and they had reduced their puzzle box size. So we're like, well, okay, so if they can do it and they're a big company that's been around 100 years or something, then we can stick with our guns and keep the size we want. But recently we discovered. So this is about the size. This is not a puzzle, because I don't have one in the size. This is the glorious game of life. A great game if you like to have your life based on who gets the biggest house at the end. I don't, but. So this is the size of a puzzle, basically. And this is our box. And it turns out, yeah, it's half the size. It turns out that in the world of toys, you can charge more for the bigger box. So it doesn't matter what your puzzle is. It could be, you know, you know, all those puzzles of like, weird looking Dolphins from the 90s or old stately homes with ivy and heaps and heaps of sky. Like, if you put in a bigger box, you can charge 10, $15 more benefits in a smaller box. And that was like, dumb. It's really dumb. Like, like we don't want to make a puzzle, put it on a massive box and shrimp wrap it, ship, use all those resources, ship it around the world and then have it take up more space on the shelf of a toy shop. And then. Or we send it out from our online shop and we spend more on shipping, the customer spends more on shipping. And we've got all those carbon emissions and all of that. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that.

So we're not gonna make money.

Yeah, like, I don't want to do that. So this is where it becomes not a conflict because it's like, no, no, I'm not gonna do that because that's dumb. And I don't want the world, I don't want to live in that world where we go, oh, it's bigger. So let's like, how big are we gonna make puzzle boxes?

It's massive.

Yeah.

It's got one. One jigsaw piece in it. Yeah.

I think a lot of this comes down to human psychology, doesn't it?

You know, it does. It's perceived value. But yeah.

Was it you who told me about the toothpastes? I'm pretty sure you the one who told me about the, like the hole in the top of the toothpaste. They make that. I'm pretty sure it was you or Anthea. How they make it they make it bigger than it needs to be so that you, you put more, you use more toothpaste than you probably need to per. You know, and because, because the dentist says I'll use a pea size. But the tooth, the toothbrush is, you know, an inch long. And I'm pretty sure it was you or Anthea said that there's a, there's a whole, there's a whole sort of manufacturing principle behind it where you know that you're basically using more toothpaste per squeeze than you want to or need to use because you're going to get through the toothpaste more quickly, which means you buy, you know, maybe one or two more a year than you would if you had the perfect, you know, almost like a shot dispenser in the bar. Like it was a perfect, like here's the pea size that you need. It just snaps it off. No, it's like, oh, it's, it's too much. But who, you know, who scrapes it off the toothbrush and puts it back? You know, it's like you don't think about it. But all these little, I guess every day you're being chipped away against with all these little things that are taking more from you than you need to be giving and they all add up and they all have a social and environmental cost. Yep. Yeah. I think, you know, you are like I say you are that the really cool impact, you know, there should be, you know, if. Because every dollar that you're making is a dollar that one of these crappy latex plasticky companies isn't making. And yours is a net positive contribution. There's is possibly a net negative contribution. So I think, yeah, I think you've got that lens which is possibly what that other person was, was getting at. But I like the fact that you kind of go into that next level of, well, yeah, but we don't need that. So I'm not interested. I think, yeah, the more purpose driven and impactful you are, the clearer. I think that's why I like asking that question because it's. The more you are of the opinion around your purpose and impact, the clearer is. No, that's just, that's a dumb thing to do. And I don't care if it's going to get me a Maserati because I don't want a Maserati anyway.

No.

So close.

That link really. I mean it's very stubborn like, but I'm not going to do it. So.

But what that does mean is that because the same with this. This is a box exactly the size of the product. And originally we made our boxes bigger and then we're like, no, that's done, we're not going to do that. But what we are starting to do this year is tell everybody why our box is the size and why it's like that. Because when we visited our stock, we've told them, they're like, ah, ah, that's really good to know. But also, we sell to a lot of shops who don't have much space.

I was going to say, you'd think, if anything, it's in the shop's benefit to be able to get more product on the shelf rather than have one massive board game.

Yeah.

I mean, yes, they're getting more money, but it gives more opportunities maybe to more people to, to create more products, you know, more, more of your type of products. Obviously, rather just more plastic. Tap. But yeah, you sort of think, yeah, yeah, but I think it's just a classic, I guess. I mean, you're targeting an industry that has been pretty much built on plastic.

Oh, yeah.

So for the last, you know what, since plastics were invented. So you're coming at this from a whole range of angles around, but that, that's a really. The way you set it up.

Yeah.

Works for how it used to work, but not how it needs to work. And so I think you're probably challenging people on a lot of levels.

Yeah, yeah. So the toy industry is a really, really long way behind most other industries when it comes to sustainability. So it's heavily plastic. Well, it is. It's not. 90, 90% of toys are made of plastic. They're all made of virgin oil. Did you know, Tim, this is amazing. Like 1% of global plastic production is in the toy industry to make toys that generally are thrown out because kids get bored of them. So, like, we want.

Did not, did not know that.

No, I know. So now the reason for our company is to. Not that this will sound too ambitious or anything, but change the global toy industry and make it more sustainable, which it's, it's, it's definitely crying out for, because we set up a campaign two years ago now called World Sustainable Toy Day. And we set it up because we decided there should be a world Saint Latoy. And we looked and there was not. And.

This is the third Friday of November, which is a week before Black Friday, which seems like a good time to remind people about the impact that the toy industry has. So it's became like a runaway success, like, straight away. So we had supporters Sign up toy companies, toy associations, toy shops, toy libraries, obviously massively into sustainable toys. And it's just like last year our theme was towards a carbon neutral toy industry. And we had, there was a toy company in Greece who we've never even heard of doing stuff for World Sustainable Toy Day. So within two years it like it was free into the wild.

So nice pretty cranium movement. But the, I mean like I say, our daughter's 11, almost 12, you know, but when, even when she was a baby, you know, the whole talk around reusable nappies.

Seems to be that the parenting world is perhaps slightly more attuned to the message now than it perhaps historically has been. And the sort of younger generation of parents coming through who perhaps are more socially and environmentally minded. So you know, you know, it's. I think your timing has got to be there or thereabouts.

Yeah.

In terms of, you know, a market that's receptive to this, you know, more natural products, you know, natural foods. You know, all of that seems to be when you, when I look at what you, you know, in terms of marketing and stuff that's out there for that in that kid space, you know, natural. Yeah. You know, wool based products, blah, blah, blah. Like it's all. Yeah, I'd say that the tide is rising for the sector that you're in more broadly.

Yeah, it's ready. I mean the customers are definitely ready, families are ready and parents are ready. It's just that the toy industry hasn't responded.

They haven't connected that. Yeah. Which is crazy.

They can just keep going. Like they know that every Christmas and every birthday parents will definitely buy something for their children. So there hasn't been any incentive to become more sustainable because it's kind of.

Like a captive market, like a monopoly. What's the same with the telecommunication companies in every country. It's like there's what, three to five telcos in every country? Well, they all have to be just as each other to get a third or a fifth of the business because you pretty much have to be with one of them. So there's no incentive for one to be exponentially better than the others because the cost, it will, you know, we'll incur to get an extra 10 of the customer base. It's not worth it. And yeah, I guess also with toys, they're always manufacturing the toy of the year that you have to have, which creates that buzz.

Yeah, it didn't, it's been like the last 15, 20 years, toys have become really trend based just like Fashion is. So that's. Yeah. Now it's a really high turnover of single use. Well, I mean, no, not. They're not all single use, but kids get sick of their toys really quickly. So.

Yeah, because there's the expectation of what's next. What's next. And I want a new one. And.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, for me, that's what toys have to do with climate change the most. It's not that they're made of plastic. It's that toys are where we train children and how in life, it's where we train them to be consumers and to follow trends and to like, we train them at school about sustainability and they go to enviro schools and all of that, but then as soon as it comes to fun, they go into a toy shop and it's all plastic. So we're teaching them that sustainability is great at school where it's boring, but when it comes to fun, it. Plastic. It's plastic, it's disposable. It's all of that. And that's really bad for the future because we need like all children to grow into adults who have, like, awareness and interest in climate change no matter what their job is. So I think super important. I think it's a super important industry when it comes to climate change. Really important.

Yeah, that's. That's a cool observation because, you know, when I used to sell medical device equipment and, and the whole thing was you need to get the doctors as early as possible, get them in their training and that, you know, you can. They're more, you know, people are more malleable in terms of their, you know, decision making and you get that loyalty from earlier spots. So, yeah, using that sort of consumer psychology insights like. Yeah, get. If we get kids as early as possible with it, with the right message.

Yeah, yeah. Kids are really. Kids and young people are really suffering from climate anxiety. And no wonder if, like every toy they've been given is like, you know, virgin plastic and like, we can't like keep. We can't keep making them so sad.

Yeah. And I mean, the irony, I always. That's the classic refrain every year when my daughter was younger, she'd spend more time playing with the bloody cardboard box than any of the plastic tap that was in it.

Yeah, we're a funny bunch. We are. Funny, funny bunch of people.

Yeah. No, that's cool.

I have no doubt that you're gonna make big waves in the industry here, I think. Yeah. It's just, it's interesting. You think you Think the toy industry, like you say it's that sort of Monopoly esque mindset but you think they'd be pretty hot on consumer demands and yeah. Human psychology and what's trending, you know, because they are all about what's trending so.

Interesting.

Yeah.

But I think possibly, I think maybe it's like a lot of industries, there's this perception that having to change to do more good is going to cost us. You know, we're going to lose money, we're going to lose market share. But there's a bunch of increasing evidence and data that coming out that shows like the transition, is it possible, you know, possibly cost neutral or there's going to be a benefit. And I just think, yeah, we just, maybe just waiting for the right people to come and take over some of these companies or you know.

Yeah, I mean, I guess before sort of this time and history with you know, being able to set up a business and a shop, shopify and social media and stuff. Like, I mean if people wanted to go into the toy industry, I mean we didn't want to go into the toy industry. We just like, well let's straws and plastic bags done. Like we need to do the next, you know, sort the next problem out.

But I guess if you wanted to be in the toy industry, you'd go and work for a toy company and they'd train you to work in the toy company and you would learn how to do it from a non sustainable toy company.

Annoying people. I was going to say disruption, but that sounds a bit entrepreneurial, doesn't it? All these annoying, annoying people who are missing about making sustainable toys.

Nice. Have you, I mean, have you thought about potentially creating like a, you know, getting in contact with some of these other global ones and hey, look, why don't we join forces? You know, because if you've got, I mean it's a challenge trying to get more than three people who don't know each other to agree or what color you might need to make a toy. But you know, the possibility of scaling quickly to take on. Because it's, it's a classic. Well, I think it's a bit of a classic conundrum. You know, if you were running Hasbro, you, you would have a mandate to be able to make a change across a global scale that would have immense impact versus chipping away. Not them saying what you're doing is not valuable and important, but you know, chipping away and trying to take on Hasbro, you know, that's. Yeah. And I just wonder if there's. If there's something around getting a few of you together where you've got different toys and like, hey, look, we'll, you know, let's create like an umbrella corporation that's bigger than the sum of the parts so that you can get better, you know, distribution deals and really take on those. Those bigger companies.

Yeah, actually, I have started thinking about that. So there are some other small companies that are doing really great, really great things, board games and all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, we've made contact with them and it would. Yeah, it'd be really good. I'd really like that.

I think that could be super impact. I said the challenge is just. It's just other people's egos and desires and. Well, you know. Yeah, but in our code of ethics, we don't care about that. And, you know, trying to do that at scale across cultures, across countries, across time zones, it's tricky. But, yeah, you just sort of think like, say if they got board games, we've got water balloons and we've got books, they've got this, like, even if you just create like a. Almost like a supply group where you have a. You all engage one person to represent your collective products and go and hit on the. I think that's. I would definitely be exploring that.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great that you think that, because I've been thinking that too. I haven't even told him. I haven't told anything. I've been thinking.

Sorry, sorry. Anthea, you should have come on the podcast as well.

But, yeah, I mean, if there's someone else, I'm going to just say if there's people listening who can, you know, help us on our growth.

Just get in touch. Yeah.

100.

Really?

We're ready, boys.

Because you're just going back to the kid thing. I knew I had something else in the back of my mind, but, like, you know, you'll be aware of this, I'm sure, but the original game of Monopoly was. Was based on sharing and compassion, not he who has the most toys or he or she who has the most toys at the end wins. And so, yeah, it's the culture of the games and it's. Even when you look at TV programs, I try not to watch TV or more watching documentaries and stuff. But you see an advert for, like, Survivor. Really, you know, why don't we have a, you know, a game show called.

I don't know, let's All Just Get Along?

Yeah, let's like, like, yeah, we work together to Survive instead of I try and tear everyone down. Yeah. But I guess we're wired to watch that because it's, it is interesting watching people tear each other apart.

Yeah. There are some really nice.

Collaborative board games around. So I've played, played a couple of them.

You're super competitive.

Yeah, this game's rubbish.

We've all won.

We didn't enjoy it that much due to the competitive nature of this household. But I have a friend who's excited, extremely not competitive. And she played it with her children and really, really enjoyed it. And the children really enjoyed it. So there's a company called. Yeah, there's a company in Australia called Joey Joey Games and they make a collaborative game called Past the Party Food, which is not available in New Zealand. It's available in Australia though, and they are great. They're another company.

Founded by someone who started off in science as well.

A theme emerging here. But you still think, you know, in the game of Monopoly, you know, you get taxed potentially by chance, you might go to jail by chance. But it's like, well, what if, what if there was a way that, you know, if you're winning, you get to mentor someone who's not doing so well or because we know that the data is there that you know that the act of giving, the act of helping, the act of mentoring is actually super, super meaningful and valuable. Whereas we, we. And we kind of know that psychology, psychologically, if you have everything but you're lonely, that's actually one of the worst places to be. And we know that having valuables and trinketry and stuff is, is meaningless. And we know that that's long term, actually detrimental to your mental health. So it's like we, we know we, you know, there's enough. Maybe we need different scientists in the, in the book with some more psychologists and psychotherapists involved in designing the board games. It's like, how do we get the, you know. Yeah. Trick people into thinking about doing more good rather than the. Yeah, I win.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's really easy to measure. I don't know, money, because it's very hard to measure quality of life and how many friends you've got and how much time you like to spend with them.

And 100. 100. I remember there's a guy, I think, is it Nathan Wallace, he's the local Kiwi guy who talks about child development stuff. And we went to watch one of his talks, my wife and I, and it was, it was like in two halves and at half time, well, for the first half, he'd been talking about, you know, if you do this with your kid, you know, then statistically they're more likely to be more successful. And he kept referring to statistically more successful. And at the half time breaking. Are there any questions? Well, yeah, I've got a question. When you say statistically more successful, what do you mean? And he said, well, basically what we track is level of. Level of job. Sorry, level of education and income. And I said, well, I've worked for some very highly qualified, very wealthy sociopaths in my life, and I'd really rather that my daughter didn't turn out into one of them. So are you not tracking, you know, meaning purpose, you know, contentment? And he's like, well, no, because we can't track them. It's like, okay, well, not not wanting to say that your research is all shit, but, you know, you're pushing kids down a track here of chasing wealth and, and. And stature rather than meaning contentment, happiness, fulfillment, and contribution.

So, I mean. And that's what makes it worth it. I mean, Anthony and I have been told that sometimes we don't get taken seriously because we're too happy, apparently.

Stop having fun at work.

Yeah. I mean, this guy, way too fun.

He's hanging out, he's doing all right.

He hasn't fallen down yet. You can't be good at business if you're also happy, apparently. Yeah.

Wow. You think? What do you mean I can't be happy in the toy industry? Like, if there's one industry that surely you have to be happy in, it's the toy industry.

You would think we were like, this is a good industry for us because we're happy people.

The toy industry needs to have a really good look at it itself as far as I'm concerned. How boring would it be working in a toy company with a bunch of grumpy old people now, like, are they just full of Scrooges or and Grinches?

Maybe not. Yeah, I think. I mean, they're billion dollar companies. It's not about.

I mean, if I had a billion dollar company, I would certainly have a Scrooge McDuck room just full of money, and I'd go swimming in it every now and then. But, you know, that would make me a little bit happy, but then I'd want to do some good with it.

Then you give it all away.

Philanthropist.

A philanthropist.

I can't be one because I can't say it.

That's easy for you to say. Yeah.

A charitable giver.

Yeah. Oh, man. It's, it's quite. Yeah, it's just, it's cool doing these podcasts to just find these little industries and people doing stuff that, you know, obviously we know each other but yeah, just learning a little bit more about these specific industries. You just said. Yeah, like surely they'd be happy in the toy industry.

I mean why, I mean why would you get into the industry, why would you go into an industry if you're.

Not allowed to kind of person does, creates that kind of vibe. Yeah, well I have no doubt you will break that barrier down as well.

Because I'm not going to be miserable.

Yeah.

Pointless.

You should have like some little fake, you know, sad mouth thing that you put on, you know. Sorry.

Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to be more sad. Sorry. It's just I have to, I have to put a face mask on because I'm really struggling to think about being said.

Yeah.

So, yeah, sort of plans for the future. What any, I mean obviously high scoring, you know, good, a solid B corp. But yeah, any areas of the business that you're working on, big, better or any new and exciting products that you've got coming down the line.

Yeah. So we've started tracking our scope 3 carbon emissions because they are our biggest ones. So apart from the mandatory things we've done. But yeah, so we're going to do that. We've got, well, I mean we've got a load of new products in the works but this year we're gonna hopefully bring out some more climate change focused products. Things to like just relieve climate anxiety and educate around.

Climate change and nature and stuff like that. But when I say educate, I mean have fun playing games. I don't. We're not an educational toy company. But we will. We're not just going to make rubbish either.

I think as I heard someone describe it once, a chocolate covered carrot. It's, it's like there's. You see the chocolate in a funny shape. You think that's cool, I'm going to eat that. But inside there's a dose of goodness.

As long as it's not disappointing. But.

Hopefully the things. I mean, yeah, I don't really want to say educating. It's like the, it's like the puzzle. Like sure, it's educational because it's about a real thing that happens in the world, but it's not educational. It's a puzzle that's fun to do. So yeah, so we're, yeah, gonna do that. And yeah, like I said, we've just swapped over from Just being Ecosplat to being Sustained Fun as a company. We're selling the products under that banner, so. Yeah, pretty exciting, I reckon.

Yeah. Eagerly watching from the sidelines to see where sustained fun goes. Yeah. Maybe you should change the name of the company to Sustain Misery. Maybe that's. Maybe that'll help me.

Oh, my goodness.

Like a sister company, like Sustained Misery.

Well, I mean, I have not had that idea, so that's a new one. Thanks.

It's all yours. I'm available. It's all yours.

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not paying you for that one, though.

All right, well, thanks. You say that, but, you know.

Okay, well, I'll think about it.

Cool. And then we spoke just before we came on. It's a question that I've been thinking about asking people, but in terms of the world of B Corp, who. Who is your favorite? B Corp. Yeah.

So you put me on the spot. So I didn't have time to go and check.

I did an hour ago.

I know, but I've been talking since then. I'm not thinking.

So.

I mean, I like the B Corpse and the companies who want to be B Corps that are founded by scientists because that's really awesome. So. Chia Sisters.

Nice.

I think they're pretty awesome. There's a Toy company. There's 18 toy companies in the world that are B Corpse.

Oh, wow.

So that's pretty awesome. There's a list of them on the website, so we contact them all and went, yay, we should do stuff together.

This will be miserable together.

There's like little, you know, they're all reasonably small. There's someone who does, I think party bags in the uk, they're a B corp and yeah, I. I like, like lots of them, I suppose. I like the little ones and the science ones. Nice people who were doing something else and then they did a company that did B Corp. I think that's awesome because that's what we do. So I feel an affinity for that.

That's reasonable, fair and reasonable. Super cool. Well, on that note, go and be miserable. Go and. Go and get rid of all the fun out of your life and go and sell some toys. No, it's been cool. Cool to catch up. We haven't seen each other for a while, but no such a cool, cool idea. I think. Yeah. Your time timing is pretty spot on. I just think. Yeah. More and more people are looking for better options across. Across their life. And I think this is, as you've seen a lot of people telling you that this is one area that they want to see some change. So, yeah, no, no doubt there'll be a plethora of other amazing toy products coming our way. And I'm just a little bit sad that my daughter's not sort of young enough to. To me to make. Make the most of it. I'm not young enough to make the most of it. Lucky to go back again.

Yeah. Our children are growing up, so we're loading our sisters and all those people like, ah. Oh, well, never mind. Oh, well, life moves on. It does, Yeah.

I don't know. Moving into the teenage years.

Well, yeah.

Anything can happen.

Okay. We. We'll just carry on being happy and L. The misery passed by.

Yeah. Can't even spell it, let alone say it. Cool. But I thank you for your time, Helen, and catch you soon.

Yeah. See ya.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.