#9 Purpose In pandemic? The Dr is in the house and purpose is the cure!

Foreign.

And welcome to In Pursuit of Purpose with me, your host, Tim Jones, the grow good guy.

It's fair to say we live in interesting times at the best of times in the modern world. But right now, as the world is in the grips of the COVID 19 or coronavirus pandemic, we certainly are living in interesting times. And so I was really curious to talk with a great friend and hero of mine, Zach Mercurio, as we try and work out how does purpose play out in a pandemic. And I think this is a really interesting interview and certainly not the interview that I had in mind when Zach and I were talking about him coming on the podcast a couple of months ago. But yeah, it'd be really interesting, really interesting to get your reflections on purpose in times of pandemic and times of crisis in general. And I guess in this talk we really dig into the importance of purpose before pandemic or before crisis, but also some really useful tips, I feel, for how to connect to purpose and a sense of meaning and contribution in these crazy times. Clearly you will be sitting back and hopefully relaxing somewhere at home around the world as you're in lockdown right now and hopefully not drinking too much of your favorite tipple. So maybe get a cup of tea instead. And yeah, kick back, relax and listen.

Awesome. And so with me on this episode, I have Zach Mercurio. So welcome, Zach.

Hey, Tim. I've been looking forward to this.

So have I. And. And Mercurio by name, Mercurial by nature. It's taken us a bit of a while to. To nail down. Nail down a time that works for both of us. So I like how you're being, you know, influenced by your name there.

That's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

Or Mercutio from Romeo and Juliet. Some people. Some people say that too. It's. My name is just Mercutio, but the T. The T is an R. Right, so.

Well, there we go. Every day's a school day.

I was close, though. I was close.

So you are one of my purpose heroes. You were one of the people that I kind of discovered on my journey to purpose. But for those of you who don't know, you may be over this side of the planet in little old Aotearoa, New Zealand, but just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're up to.

Yeah, I mean, there's this big movement, as you know, if you're listening to this podcast, of having purpose. Right. Knowing your contribution. And my work really has centered on how do we move from having purpose to being purposeful, to developing a purposeful, contribution, centered mindset to provide energy for our days, our work, and the people around us. And the way I got there is honestly, it all started at 5 years old and I didn't know it. I was the youngest of two, three brothers. And you know, when you're the youngest, you get really good at entertaining yourself and comparing yourself. And that comparison sort of dominated my life. I was always searching for significance and trying to find something to give me significance. And I realized through taking a job that paid me very well that other people thought other people saw me as successful. I realized in the depths of that moment of sort of despair and misery of seeing people live for the weekends, that us human beings, we're just not made to acquire and achieve things. And I have shifted my work since then to really help people realize their own significance through purpose and meaningfulness. And so I do that in a couple ways. I do research and teach in the center for Meaning and Purpose in the Department of Psychology at Colorado State University. And then I work with organizations and individuals on how to approach work and life with a purposeful mindset to experience meaning and meaningfulness. But it all comes back from that five year old self, you know, yearning for significance and looking in all the wrong places.

That's so, so true. And that, that is so. I mean, essentially, you know, I'm an only child.

Oh. Yeah.

But yeah, you know, and a lot of people go, oh, only child, you know, it must have been spot rotten and da, da. But not always the case. Not that I'm saying I didn't have very good upbringing or have you, but that need for approval was massive with me. And I think that's because. Because you ended up in sort of marketing, advertising. I ended up in sales. Both, you know, jobs that pay well, but equally both jobs, I think, like you say, where your. There's like this manifestation for this yearning of human connection and acceptance in the work that you do to try and fill that void.

Yeah, it's kind of like the if then hamster wheel. Like if I get this job, then I'll be happy. If I get this starting salary, then I'll be worth something. If I get this PhD, then I'll be able to write a book. If I. And we follow the if then all the time. And meanwhile we miss the now because we're focused on the then.

Yes.

This destination addiction that we have.

Can strip us of our significance right now or our sense of significance right now.

Yeah, and. And sort of trying to, like you say, trying to fill that void. I've just finished up a. A coaching program with a group of people last night. And that kind of.

You're trying to fill that need for approval, like just releasing that. That particularly the, the parent connection, um, of the, the. The potential.

Feeling of. Of, you know, parents not having done enough or that need for approval that hasn't been met. And finding that approval, you know, within yourself by doing something of contribution, that. That was something really powerful for the team. And I kind of feel, in a sense that's how I kind of see purpose is like become clear on. On who you are not. On who you have been told you should be, and fill that kind of emotional internal cup through the contribution and doing. Doing good in the world rather than on that kind of destination addiction.

Yeah. I think it's the difference between the question what should I do? And how should I contribute? Those questions lead two different places. What should I do? It usually narrows our attention into some particular step or someone else's plan for your life or some sequential linear path in a spiraling world. We're not. We don't live in a linear world. We try to make it linear.

Yes.

And then what happens is that those things that you do, they can all go away. And when the floor drops out, we can't answer that question of who am I? Now? I think that that's what, like this time that we're talking in a global pandemic is a lot of people can't do the things that they thought brought them meaning. And those things are changing. And without the thing that we do, without our activity to prove our worth, who are we?

Yes.

And why are we? And so when we ask how I. How can I contribute? That opens up a whole different set of possibilities because it's not tied to it one job. It's not tied to one career or one thing or one skill set. You can contribute in the way you were built to contribute in many different ways.

Exactly. That.

There are many different mediums through which you can do that versus when you say, what should I do next? You get on the train track. It's hard to get off.

Oh, yes. And that's all great stuff. And you have, You've got that. I mean, I have this real clear sense of the moment when I kind of flipped the metaphorical Monopoly board in front of me and said, stuff this. I don't want to play this game anymore. And I know that you had that real clear moment as well. You talk about the taxi driver Moment. Yeah, because I think a lot of people, they're close to that moment in life or maybe they've had a mini moment like that. And I think the more that they hear other people having that moment, the more hope it gives people. So I'd really be keen for you to let me know what happened there. Yeah.

And I think a lot of listeners probably out there have already had the moment, and I probably had the moment before the moment, but I just wasn't noticing because I think you have to have the ability to notice and look and reflect and act. You know, when I think about reflection, I think it's. You have to notice what's happening to you. You have to reflect on it, and then you have to do something as a result of it. Those are when the moments really coalesce. And so I was. I was in this job where every meeting I had with people was talking about how to make as much money as possible.

And I would go out because I sold advertising. I would go out and talk to these human beings who had businesses that actually did need what we had, so we actually did have purpose. But then I would go back and. And the disconnect was so misery inducing, you know, that disconnect between we were talking about outcomes and not human beings. So what I noticed in that job is that people around me were talking about the weekend. And I still think it's a. It's something we don't talk about enough. How the everyday greeting is, hey, how are you? And then someone says what they did last weekend or what they're excited for this coming weekend. I mean, and that's 2/7 of our lives. It's astounding how many people really live and talk about 2/7 of their lives. I mean, that's. That's the meaning gap right there.

And so I had left work on a lunch break and I went to this parking lot and I met this cab driver, and he pulled up next to me. He got out of his cab and he said, how's it going? And in. In the US on the east coast, during a weekday, you don't make small talk. So this is a little.

And he said, how's it going? And I grumbled, oh, man, can't wait for Friday. And it was like Tuesday at the time, which is embarrassing.

And I'm kind of embarrassed, literally looking back on that. And then I asked him how he's doing, and he sort of lit up in this way that, you know, I can't really describe. He just had a sense of joy. On his face. And he said, I'm doing great. You can't beat this. I get to drive new people around the nation's capital every half hour. And then he said, he said, I'm people's parents they don't talk to. I'm their friends they never had. When people come to the U.S. i'm the first person they talk to. I feel like I'm the face of the United States, especially driving a cab here. And he's like, I love it. He was smoking a cigarette. He put the cigarette out, he got in his cab and he drove away. And I was struck by not what he did, but how he talked about what he did. Yes, that he talked about why he did it. And that emotionally moved me. And it was, it was from that moment where I went on this reflective journey of how do we learn that perspective? And that has that. That's what my research and my work has been on ever since is how can we learn to approach our lives thinking about how we contribute, the impact that we uniquely can where we are right now. And that's what's led me to this work. But it was that realization. And then I actually, I was on a train and I.

Book store bookstores were a thing.

Of poetry. I mean, so I didn't read poetry, but I picked up this book of poetry for some reason. It was called Everything Else in the World. And there was a. That said I yearn for a job so good that I'll be finishing it for the rest of my life. This is a Steven Dunn poem.

And what I Is the contribution that we make. That's the job that's so good. We'll be finishing it for the love it.

And I think that's such a, it's such a powerful story that you've got there. And because I know you've done. You did the study as part of your PhD on the janitors or the cleaners or. I know that's been a part of your work and I think that's one of the. For me, one of the challenges around purpose is I think it can be sold in inverted commas as this, you know, this world changing thing that you, that you have to be doing. And I think for sure right now there are lots of things that we do need. World changing ideas and contributions to make things better. But equally for me, I, I look at.

Like hospitality workers, you know, and there's some of the lowest paid and worst treated. And it's like this, this human is serving you your food, which is vital. It's like this. That is such a powerful role. That's like they're literally providing you with the life force that you need to keep going. And it's like, sure, you can choose to do that badly and, and not understand the conscious, but it's like this. It's actually one of the deepest acts of service you can provide another human is their food. And it's like if you understand that connection on both sides of the table, literally, you know, there is a sense of meaning and contribution. Or you can just go, well, this is a low paid student worker who's provided me a really average meal. And you know, that was really transactional.

Whereas I think, you know, in. I think this is kind of what you were sort of exploring in the work you did with the janitors. It's like in many ways, the more, the more physical contribution that you're making, there's. That there's almost actually a clearer path to recognizing your contribution. Whereas as you kind of rise up into the white collar world, it becomes harder to perhaps see that connection because you're distanced from the human that you're actually contributing to potentially.

Because pre second industrial revolution, all work was purposeful.

Yes.

Like I made. If I'm a shoemaker, I made shoes. So you could have shoes, Tim.

Yes.

If I'm a farmer, I grew food so you could eat. We put it into an assembly line. So what once was a craft where I made the shoe for you, now I'm just making a piece of the sole of the shoe and I don't know who's making the rest of the shoe. So I just go to work and I do my part as fast as possible. And they might not see that.

Yeah. And you might never see that. The human. Whereas when you're the cobbler in your village or your town and you're seeing the. The same people come through and you're having that sense of connection. Because the other one I have this conversation with. Well, I've had this conversation with my barber a couple of times. And you know, he's like, oh, you know what you do? And I try and explain what I do around helping people and organizations find purpose and meaning, like yourself. And you know, he was like, oh, man. You know, and I was like, but surely you must feel a sense of purpose in what you do. Because kind of like the cabbie or the taxi driver you spoke about, you know, the, the. A good barber is your counselor, is the dad that you didn't have, or the second dad who you go and talk to. And you have this very. You know, how many other people touch your hair for 30 to 45 minutes once a month? You know, it's like a very intimate role. And it's like for me, I, I guess you're probably the same. Like you can probably see the connection and the meaning that could be available in a role. But I guess a lot of people are just so. Well, I, I'm a barber. Because I'm a barber. I didn't really think about it. I just kind of ended up here or whatever. It's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, I think this idea of is actually very misguided. There is a big difference between being purposeful that have a purpose to save people's lives, but they don't experience their work as purpose. Worked with plumbers who society says don't have a bigger higher purpose, but they experience profound purpose in their work. And I think one of, one of the roles to discern purpose where we are then we're not going to learn to do it where we are going or where we want to go. And between people that experience meaningfulness. In my research all had a mindset that they were able to attach the discrete task or thing that they were doing to its inevitable impact. Like the janitors would say to themselves. The janitors that experience meaning. I'm cleaning toilets so people don't get sick. That, so that. Right. Connecting.

Just for them it was the cleaning supplies and what they had, their position with the impact of the work. That's what being purposeful is all about.

Yeah. Yeah.

Time. It's important to develop and discern and understand where your unique strengths do match up with a unique impact and create a sense of. Bigger sense of purpose. But I think the prerequisite for that is being purposeful. Learning how to discern meaning in the moment.

Exactly that. Because you know, there is. There is like you say, there is meaning in every action potentially. It's just you have to discern it. You have to understand it and realize how what you do is impacting someone. Someone else. And I guess, you know, ultimately for me that the key then is to get to a point where, um, you know, the contribution that you're making is. Is good for them, it's good for the wider society and it's good for. For you. And that's kind of like the, the nirvana bubble of purpose.

Right. But I would for that big job, that dream job or start that big enterprise, start thinking about how you make an impact right now. Like when you wake up and, and make Breakfast for your family or. Or you ask someone how they're doing that's just as purposeful. A clean water project in Africa. You know, mother, Mother changed the world. Go home and love your family. Now, the meta. The metaphor of that is if you don't have a family or don't go back to where you are. I mean, focus on where you are right now and how you can make a difference. And often your pathway to these bigger projects is revealed through looking at how you make an impact in these small moments. Because you learn a lot about yourself.

Exactly that. I think that. I mean, that's one of my favorite quotes that I put it, you know, put out to people in. In my field is from Gandhi. You know, that the best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others.

Yeah.

So. And exactly that start. And I'm a big fan of the. The idea of like, you know, well, and I guess part of the purpose work is, you know, first sort yourself out. Like, understand, like, kind of like you did. Like, okay, why. Why am I working this job that I don't. I don't particularly enjoy? I'm living for the weekend. Okay, Right. I need to sort myself out. And then once I sort myself out, then I can connect to my family in a more meaningful way. Once I've connected and me and my family are doing okay, you know, with meaning, then I can think about a wider sphere of influence of, you know, maybe it's my community and then it's maybe my society, and then it's maybe, you know, my country. Then it's maybe at a really, really big level. But I think, and I think different people will find their place at different parts of that. You look at someone like Elon Musk, you know, who's trying to change the world and get us all into Teslas, well, that great, you know, he wants to operate at that level. Not everyone can or will or want to operate at that level. And I think that's, for me, that's. That's where you've really hit so much, you know, really well, is like fight. You can find meaning in doing what a lot of people would look at as meaningless jobs.

And look at what's happening right now all of a sudden, especially here in the States with this coronavirus pandemic. I always think what we really hinge our identity on, like, do we hinge our identity on what we do or on why we do it? And our contribution, it really reveals who we really need. And I think that we're finding that the people that actually make society possible are the people that get paid the worst and that are the most overlooked. Like, why did it take a pandemic for us to praise frontline workers, the people that literally make everything else possible? It's because we sometimes, I think we make purpose a destination. Like we inadvertently make it some big destination. But then the third thing is, I think crisis shows us who we, who we can become. I mean, what's possible when we realize our entanglement with each other that always were purposefully connected, but it's crisis to violently show us how interconnected we are, which inevitably that inter. And what your impact is. That's purposeful thinking.

Yes. And I think that's the truth in the, you know, I guess, you know, you. You got onto your purpose journey in a moment of crisis, you know, personal crisis. So it's like, I really dislike what I'm doing. I had a very same similar moment of, okay, like, why am I here? And. And for me, it was also on the backdrop of the earthquakes that we had here in, in New Zealand. And, and I kind of feel, it's been really interesting for me. I, I kind of feel like it's been a real fire hose of content coming out of the Internet whilst everyone's sat at home. And there's, you know, do this pivot your business, do this marketing, you know, financial advice, and, and whoa. It's just like, it's overwhelming the amount of content that's being thrown out there. And I guess the majority of people very well meaning, you know, it's like, hey, I want to contribute. I have some skills, okay? How can I best possibly serve humanity right now so that they get onto the, onto, you know, a better place.

But equally, I've kind of been holding back from, from putting too much out there because it's like, how do you, how do you talk purpose in pandemic when a lot of people literally are in survival mode right now? It's like, you know, I don't know if I can pay the bills next month, and I don't know if I'm gonna have a job next week. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, personally, I mean, I. My survival is dependent upon being able to share this message in group. And we're on a shelter in place lockdown.

Yeah.

Half of my business in four hours on a Friday afternoon.

And studies purpose. It revealed to me that even I hadn't done the work enough. My identity was revealed that I had hinged myself on what I did and I had to stop and reflect back on the work that I had done, the purpose work that I've done with myself to bring me back to this place of okay, who needs you most right now? Forget about how much money you need to make to, to pay for your mortgage, like who needs me right now? And guiding my work. But this whole idea of survival and purpose without the will to survive.

The will of Viktor Frankl and I know we've talked about this, you know, Viktor Frankl called it our will to meaning when he, he was a. Viktor Frankl wrote the book Man's Search for Meaning. Really uncover that it's not our situation that defines us, how we respond to the situation and how we connect and discern meaning. And I think that, that, that he did with patients who had like schizophrenia or these really challenging psychiatric disorders is the, to reveal their purpose, their will to live, why they wanted to continue on was, was central. And I think that's central for people all over the place to cultivate that. Why are we doing this? Why, why are you stressed for what, what are you stressed for? Yeah, so I think that we have to cultivate the will to survive along with the tactics to survive. Just giving somebody a job, like doing an economic rescue package and making sure people have a job when they come back is not going to do anything for their emotional well being while they're in the job. So I think that we have to do both. We have to give people a job and we have to make sure people have what they need to survive, but we also have to make sure people are cultivating their will.

Because we were having a chat just before the, the call. And you know, resilience is a big part of purpose.

And there's, there's a lot of call, you know, people reaching out, you know, organizations wanting resilience work now. And it's kind of like.

You know, teaching resilience now is, it's like that's literally the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, isn't it?

It's like, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, like, I'm not laughing because this is a serious situation. But resilience is a developmental trajectory. So resilience is developed over time. You can't, you can't teach it or learn it.

Yeah, because you're right in many ways. You're learning resilience now. Exactly right.

And the only way to learn it is to be able to say, okay, I moved through that. How, yeah, how did I do that? And, and what, what strengths did I use what personality traits did I use? Question. I mean, for anybody who's listening, who's feeling, like, nervous and anxious right now, which I am asking myself this question, like, think of a time or a crisis or a change that you moved through. And if you're listening to this, you have yourself, like, what did I do? Well, And I guarantee you're not going to find, oh, I sat and stewed about how I was going to survive. I guarantee, like, I hunkered down into my home office and, you know, did a bunch of webinars. What I think you're going to find is that you were hopeful, you leaned on others, you asked for help. These are all purposeful things.

And it comes down to that. I guess a big part of it is that connectivity. And I really appreciate your vulnerability. And, you know, I kind of feel I'm a bit in the same boat as yourself right now. You know, it's. It's like, okay, you know, who needs purpose work right now? When in many ways, you could make an argument that actually a lot of people need purpose right now. But it's pretty hard to try and broach that conversation when, like you said, a lot of people are sat in the home offices watching webinars. And I've watched a couple last week myself.

People around you. Like, I mean, you know, for me, it's been really hard to embrace vulnerability just because I'm, like, a more logical, rational thinker. But, like, I've had to say to my wife, like, I'm really nervous about this, and I'm nervous about my livelihood and my ability to contribute. And it took me saying that for her to give me the evidence that I've made it through these things in the past. I mean, she said, she goes, you switched without any safety net. And what did you rely on to do that? And I think that's why doing this in community is really important. Being able to be vulnerable. Name what you're feeling. Even though. Even if, like, I'm, quote, unquote, you're like, you said I was your purpose hero. But I mean, like, a purpose expert. Like, this is a purpose is also a developmental trajectory. We don't just get it and arrive. Like, I don't. I. I didn't read the news of a global pandemic and sit down and read my purpose statement three times, and then all of a sudden, we sprinkle magic purpose dust on myself and get up and start skipping down the road, you know, giving out bags of free food. Like, that just doesn't happen. You have to like, go back. And you have to use the skills of being vulnerable in your network, looking inward, affirming yourself, knowing you can do it, and relying on those resources that you've built over time. And everybody who's listening has those.

Yeah, that's super cool. I think for me, because my wife runs her own business as well and her business has been going okay so far. Touchwood. And for me, a big adjustment. And it's really interesting that, you know, that that identity is like, well, I'm, I'm the grow good guy. Like, I should be out there growing good right now. I should be helping people. But the reality for the last week.

Is I've been absolutely.

Because my wife's been working and my daughter's at home and for a couple, for a couple of days I was like a real bear with a sore head.

I got work I need to be doing. People need me, you know, I'm the good guy. But I think this is a really interesting one maybe perhaps for, you know, mothers listening because, okay, we're still. Generally it is the female that will take the time off to look after the child whilst the male will stay working. And you know, I've said this to female clients in the past. It's like, like you can't underestimate the value of purpose in staying at home and developing a new human. It's like, it's like I had to take a real dose of my medicine and go, maybe my purpose right now is to be the, you know, the best dad I can be in a pandemic and, and hang out with my daughter and have some cool times in, in lockdown. You know, we're lucky in New Zealand we can still go for little walks around our, your local area. And it's like, okay, I just have to embrace that and, and I need to put the work on hold for a bit and, and pop up when I can.

And you know, being there for a small human might possibly be way more purposeful than anything you'll ever do as the grow good guy.

Exactly that.

And we have, we have to be okay with that. That's the, this is what I, this is what I mean by like, the grow good guy is doing amazing work, but it's right in front of you. You are the grow good guy as a parent.

Exactly. And for me, that was a really interesting link back to my purpose because the reason I am the grow good guy and why I'm trying to help, you know, transition as many people and organizations to be purposeful is for my daughter so that she can inherit a better planet in 10 years time when she's 17, 18 and moving into being, you know, a fully, you know, a full human interacting with this world. And it's like, well, okay, so, but I've got to make sure she's a good human to go and enter that good world. So.

Yeah, I think you raise a good point about default purposes, like the purposes that society because of gender roles can place on people. And you see that now. Like my wife, I think she has a more important job than me right now because she works for the university. She's on this Covid response team and she's doing a bunch of financial stuff to make sure that ventilators can be donated into hospitals from the university. Right.

Oh, wow.

And so I think that both, both you can contribute like as a parent, which I'm doing too right now, and honor that women contribute in the workforce right now. And we need women to be contributing in the workforce too right now as well. So. And they should be, and we should be. But I think that that's really, it's really important. What you brought up there is that to be able to stop the to do list and all this stuff. I mean, two days into this I just stopped and was like, okay, I'm just going to go build a, I'm.

Going to go, I'm just going to.

Go build a Lego tower with my five year old. Like, honestly, because I was trying to do, do, do and keep up and keep up and it just wasn't happening. And when I just stopped and let myself be and stopped identifying with what I did, there was a sense of peace that washed over me that, that I experienced when I'm doing my job and I'm on purpose.

Totally. But, and it's interesting because, you know, obviously for, I think you'd recognize or agree, you know, one of the biggest components of being purposeful and, and what I really love about your work is, is, you know, the behavior of purpose. It's, it's one thing sort of thinking that you are, but actually how you behave, which we could maybe talk about in a second in some of the corporate responses to this stuff. But you know, states of flow are a really important way of recognizing or moving towards purposeful behavior. And what I, what I found really interesting is, is you kind of forget actually how much flow there is in building a Lego tower with a five year old or with a seven year old in my case, or sitting down and just doing, coloring in for two hours. And it's like, actually, I kind of quite like to do some more coloring in during the week.

You know what?

Yeah, it's like, it's actually quite meditative.

And therapeutic and it sometimes takes some easing into. Right? It sometimes takes some easing into. Because at first you're like, I'm coloring. Why am I coloring? I need to be doing, doing work. And then, and then as you keep coloring, you let yourself keep coloring. All of a sudden you're like, wow, I'm coloring. I'm feeling something. I actually think it's a very good metaphor for building purposeful habits because being purposeful is very uncomfortable. I mean, we want to get up, look at our phone and say, what am I going to do today? What am I going to do today? Instead of looking at our phones and saying, how is what I'm going to do today going to benefit other people? And that's a very uncomfortable question. But it's just like sitting down, coloring, when you have a whole to do list, once you just start doing it and you get into it and you keep doing it, you do start to experience these states of what you called flow.

And there's nothing wrong with sitting down and coloring with your child instead of sending that email or building that new online course. I would argue, I would argue that sitting down with a child or someone else and having that comp time is way more important right now than building that course or starting that side hustle or whatever the heck people are selling, you know, in our stimulation economy.

Yeah. Which is, yeah, it's, I think there's, I mean, my kind of sense is there's, there's kind of two, broadly speaking, that we've split humanity into two camps. We've got those who are, you know, really going to really struggle and, and that could include medically, it's going to be. Financially, it's like, I don't know if there is going to be a job.

Right next, next month.

And hopefully, you know, like in New Zealand, governments will come to the party and help people through so that we don't have mass unemployment. But I kind of also get the sense that there's, there's a well to do bunch who are, you know, their work is still going. And in New Zealand we're hearing there's a whole lot of industries that they're kind of like pandemic. What pandemic? Like sales have been better than ever or businesses going better than ever. For those that are kind of, you know, life's kind of going okay and maybe now they're in isolation they're working from home. Do you think now would. Would be a good time for people to. For that group to be reflecting on purpose and maybe, you know, considering things and, you know, for an organization, you know, would now, if you're doing okay, isn't. Do you think now's a good time when you've got some downtime to reflect on connecting to purpose more. More deeply?

I think so. I mean, because it's. It's sort of a natural pause and the space we need, it's. It's can be on the flip side of all of this. If you're not impacted heavily, if you or a loved one don't have this really terrible disease, then it could be a time to pause. I think the benefit of even asking the why question, like when my toddler asks me why I have to stop and think. You know, like it inter. It interrupts the routine, like the. The business as usual. Because we get into these habits, like, we all have beliefs and habits that we don't know we have. But you get up every day, and most of us do some version of the same thing every day. Organizations do that too. What if a toddler came into your organization, just asked, why? Why are you doing this? Why are we doing this?

And then when you do ask why, and this is why this whole building resilience is a developmental trajectory is when you start to ask why. When you start to cultivate the bigger meaning, you start to cultivate the will to survive before you actually need to sur.

Is so powerful. So if you are an organization, if you are a leader, and there isn't a firm sense of purpose or being purposeful in the approach to the work, it's just doing the work to get particular outcomes. There will be a time. This is not a black swan event. There will be time where those outcomes won't be there. And I always say this. The problem with living for results as an organization or an individual is the fact that you can achieve them or you achieve.

Yeah.

And then. Then what?

Totally.

So I would. I would fill the end of the then what now. You know, have that purpose that will sustain you and pull you through those and start cultivating it now.

Totally great. I mean, as a. As a recovering salesperson, and I was. I was talking to a friend through school who's in sales, and, you know, he was just remarking the other week, it's like, so we have this sales target for this year, and it's like they've literally just made that number up, and we will all hit that Number. And I'm like, yep. How does that feel? He's like.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right?

It's like. And he said, well, you know, we, we hit our number last year within three months of the year. And it's like, cool. So how did that make you feel? He's like, well then we didn't know what to do for the rest of the year.

Yeah, yeah.

Like how many in your team? Like 200. Cool. You got 200 salespeople, you know, just.

Like, yeah.

You know, it's like one of my, one of the US columnists in the New York Times, David Brooks, wrote about there's two types of virtues to live for. There's resume virtues.

Yes.

The things that you acquire and achieve to make yourself look good or be successful. And a company can have these too. And then there's eulogy, virtues, what people will say about you at your funeral. And you can think about this as a company too. Like, do you live for you? What's your, what's your legacy going to be as a company? Is it creating a lot of value for shareholders and meeting your quarterly goals? People aren't going to remember you for that. Like even in this crisis. Like what I was saying in this crisis is I've been saying this to people all the time. After I was talking to this executive who said, I don't have time for this culture stuff during purpose. And I was like, how are you responding to this? And he showed me all these projections and these flowcharts and things. And I said, you know, people, at the end of this, your people are not going to remember you for your flowcharts and projections. They're going to remember you for your empathy and compassion. I mean, that's if you remember for the people that guided you through difficult times in your life. You don't remember, you don't remember the detailed step by step plan they created for you in the financial projections. You remember that they were there for you, that they cared for you, that they had compassion, that they had that outward focus. And that outward focus on being and contributing to you is, is that's purpose. That's being purposeful. Exactly. So, you know, I think it's a short term people are, are thinking, generally think in short term gain and not long term legacy.

And that's it. That's part of the human condition. I mean, that's like the marshmallow challenge, isn't it?

Right?

When you give the kids.

It'S like, I guess it's that deep, deep rooted survival mechanism of nah, take the marshmallow now, because there might not be any marshmallows because the other kids might eat them all. Yeah, that's a perfect.

That's a perfect metaphor, which is.

But it's interesting because equally, you could argue that that's something that defines the human condition, is that we. We are even aware that there is a thing called the future. You know, like, I've got a small West Highland terrier. Like, he doesn't know that if he doesn't eat the food. You know, if he eats the food now, he's not sure whether there's gonna be food tomorrow or not. It's like, I'm just gonna eat the food, you know, so humans are like, we. We have. I don't know, maybe that's what the next sort of transcendence of the human race needs to be, is like, okay, well, we know of the future. We know that we can save food and stockpile and, you know, we can delay gratification in that respect. But, yeah, we still don't seem to fully close that loop of sacrifice. And for me, that's a big part of purpose. Like, what. What will I be willing to sacrifice today for a better world tomorrow for me and other people? And I think that's really, like, the lockdown for me is like a really interesting concept for purpose. It's like we're all taking a hit on our lives right now to ensure that other people have a better chance of survival. And it's like, even if that's the one thing in my mind, if that's the one thing that you connect to right now, it's like, that's something that you can look back on and go, well, I did my bit. Like, I stayed home and I didn't go and have meetings and go to the bar or go and meet people. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that what we are willing to risk reveals what we value ultimately.

Yes.

And so I think that that's a. That's actually a great starting point to think about your purpose is think about what you're really willing to risk. And usually you'll. You'll find out what you. And sometimes that can be a difficult, difficult conversation to have with yourself. But I also think something you said is that we're conditioned to react to unhelpful instincts.

Like, for example, when we react and we stay in fear, and maybe we are sitting at home right now and we're in fear, our actions, our ability to problem solve, research finds, becomes worse. We are less collaborative. We are the part of Our brain that solves for problems when we experience a negative emotion for too long, actually shrinks. And so we have to learn not to react on instinct, but to respond and create the space to respond. And that's something you can learn and an organization can learn and leaders can learn. I mean, here in the States right now, the biggest threat to leaders is not this virus, it's the, it's succumbing to.

Reacting with unproductive instincts. Fear, frustration, anger, cynicism. Instead of creating the space to choose a positive and productive response that's regenerative and is not extracting of people totally.

It is certainly crazy times.

Yes.

I mean, I'm hopeful though that I kind of feel. Well, I'm hoping that the rebound from this will be a very much more purposeful world.

I'm kind of hoping that the sense of connection that we have and like, as you mentioned at the very beginning, the fact that we, you know, we realize how connected we are as a species.

I kind of feel that it's there for the taking, for, for humanity to really come together on this. And we come out of this collectively in a way better place than where we entered into. I think that's the hope, you know, and, and I guess for me again, it's like it's all part of the purposeful journey. Like you got to go and do the shadow work, you got to go into that dark cave and it's like, okay, we're all in a dark cave right now and we can choose to kind of slay some dragons and, and go on a bit of a hero's journey and come out of here way better humans and create way better organizations which will create way better systems and how we support and help each other. Or we can take that fear based track and, and maybe regress from, from what was business as usual. That's my take, whatever your thoughts are. Yeah.

And I think that this is revealing the links between us, like you said, that we often don't want to see because it may make business decisions not as streamlined or it may make leadership decisions not as easy when we can see the link to the decision to a variety of human stakeholders. But I think that what this is revealing are the links between us and thinking is being able to see those links when times are good. And I'm hoping that we can continue to make the inherent interdependence of human beings visible and that when people can be purposeful, they can see those links and talk about them and serve them and not operate in this isolated Individualism that oftentimes.

Does. Makes more of a mess in the long run and doesn't build the resources to respond when things don't go well.

Totally agree. So I guess we're. We're getting to the end of our allotted time, I guess. Yeah. Just the sort of to wrap up. What would be like if you've got it. Well, you've got a message. You've got like what. What would be your message to people right now? I guess specifically in, you know, pandemic times around. Around purpose of meaning. I think we've covered quite a lot. But is. Is there one kind of take home message you'd want to get across to people right now?

I think that this time is. Is a time of revelation in terms of what it re. What it really reveals. And I really want to invite people into asking themselves what is this revealing about me? What is this revealing about my community? What is this revealing about the world? And then pursue this question of where are my strengths most needed?

I think is something that's really helpful like if you've lost your job, still ask yourself, where are my strengths most needed? Here in Denver, Colorado, I was reading a story about this chef. Her name was Brittany Ray. She was laid off from her two, two jobs and her only way of making money. And instead of sort of sinking into despair and frustration and anger and cynicism and sort of clawing for a job, any job, she went to a local church and she set up a kitchen and she's making food 14 hours a day right now and delivering it to elderly who are in their homes, low income families. Families. And she's using her strength to make an impact. Well, the result of that is that I found out about her through reading an article about her and people have started pouring donations into her work and she's going to be starting a nonprofit. That's how when you lead with contribution, results follow.

That's amazing.

And we call that a positively deviant act in positive psychology because we. Yeah. And what happened. Because what we do is we deviate from the instinct that to respond in fear and choose a positive and productive path forward. And we can do that.

Nice. And I think that's such a. Because the purpose stuff can get really complicated or it can appear like. Because it's a big topic and you can unpack it and go into all sorts of weird and wonderful places. But I think that this is like clearly being a positive deviant is a, you know, that's a place we could all go to. But it's like, the basis of it. It's like, what are the skills you have? Where can you contribute? It's like, exactly. Organizational purpose down. That's kind of where it's at. And I think that is what I think. You know, in New Zealand here at the minute, there's. We're labeling. Like, the frontline staff here are being called essential workers.

Yes.

You know, for me, it's kind of like, okay, well, if your organization or your work has not been deemed as essential, why not? Like, how could you make yourself essential.

Right.

The next time this comes around? Because if you're not essential, then there's clearly not a, like, a deep human need for what you're offering. And right now, it's kind of medical and food. It's like, essential.

Right.

So it's like, how do you make. How can you make your business essential for humanity? I think that's a really interesting idea for people to maybe ponder on if they have that capacity right now.

Yeah, I might let you know. I might let you end on that.

Awesome. Hey, mate, it's been super cool. I absolutely love your work. We've not actually met physically yet. Hopefully one day once the lockdown's out, that might happen.

Yeah, I love.

But, you know, yeah, thank you so much. I would definitely like to get you back on for a second go. Maybe when we're not in pandemic purpose times and maybe we can talk about some other purpose stuff. But, you know, thank you so much for all the work you're doing, Zach. In the world of purpose, like I say, you've definitely been an inspiration for me, and I know you're being an inspiration for probably millions of other people around the world. So, yeah, keep on. Keep on doing what you're doing and stay safe and hope you and your family come out of this on the other side or. All well and good.

Me too. Thanks for doing this podcast, putting this out into the world, and for. For anybody who part of this movement. So thank you.

Hey, no worries. All right, mate, I'll leave you to it. Catch you.

All right, bye.

Bye.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening in to my podcast. As I say, I'd love to know where you are on your journey and pursuit of purpose. And if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try and answer for you or people you'd like me to interview on this podcast, please do let me know through a message or a comment. Also, do connect with me on other social media platforms. You'll Find me on Facebook, LinkedIn and on YouTube for more information about me and what I offer through my business grow good. You can also go find me at www.growgood.co. that's growgood.co. if you want to get in contact with me, my email is really easy. TimOgrowGood co. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, go well and keep on pursuing your purpose.

And that's a wrap. Hey, thank you so much for listening in to my podcast. As I say, I'd love to know where you are on your journey and pursuit of purpose. And if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try and answer for you or people you'd like me to interview on this podcast, please do let me know through a message or a comment. Also, do connect with me on other social media platforms. You'll find me on Facebook, LinkedIn and on YouTube for more information about me and what I offer through my business GROWGOOD. You can also go find me at www.growgood. that's GROWGOOD. CO. If you want to get in contact with me, my email is really easy. TimOgrowGood co. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, go well and keep on pursuing your purpose.

Hi Tim, just want to say loving your podcast. Really helping me in my junior of purpose. Anyway, this is just a wee test message but I'm about to head out on another walk and listen to another podcast, so I'll try to leave you a message for any light bulb moments I have during the podcast. Anyway, cheers buddy. See it. Bye.