#93 Skiing, Sustainability, and B Corp Leadership with Dawn from Taos Ski Valley

There we go. Right, we are recording.

Hello, and welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better Podcast. And those of you watching on video might notice something. Those of you not listening on video, clearly you're missing out looking at my beautiful face. But beyond that, we've also just invested in the Streamyard platform to be able to enable us to make the video quality a bit better and put some funky graphics and basically do some awesome stuff. So if you're watching this one, thanks for tuning in. As ever. If you haven't liked or subscribed, I listen to all the big podcasts like what's his name, Stephen, the Diary of a CEO, and he's always begging for likes and subscribes. So I feel very much within comfortable range of asking for likes and subscribes.

What else? Yeah, I think that's about it really. So we'll get into this episode. I am very, very excited. People who've been listening to the podcast, people who know me know that I love to go skiing. We've already interviewed a couple of ski brands, so you can check those episodes out. We had Wonder, Alpine and Western backcountry. You can go and delve in. But with me today, I have got dawn and she is from Taos Ski Field in New Mexico. Welcome, Dawn. How are you?

Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I'm doing well, thank you.

Excellent. So, yeah, for people who sort of don't know who you are, who are you and where are you from?

Sure. My name is Dawn Bulwark and I'm the Vice President of Social and Environmental Responsibility for Koski Valley Incorporated. We're a resort in northern New Mexico. So we are at the beginning of the Rockies.

In the southern end. And we are. Our base area is at an elevation of 9,200ft with a top elevation of about 12,141ft, which is Kachina Peak, which is kind of what we're famous for. We're famous for kind of our steep terrain. We're a very kind of expert oriented mountain, but half of our terrain is also beginning in intermediate. And the cool thing about our mountain is that you can access all three levels from each of our lifts, apart from the Kachina Peak lift. And so we're a pretty great varied mountain because of our southern latitude. We also enjoy quite a few sunny days.

And have absolute beautiful weather here. So, yeah, thanks again for having us on.

I know, yeah, I think we connected on LinkedIn not so long ago because I thought I saw a post from. From you Saying that you just recertified as a B corp. I knew that Taos was a. Was a B corp because I've got a mate of mine. I will give a shout out to Kerry. A mate of mine, Kerry. I don't think he listens to the podcast, so he's probably not going to hear it. But he. He's a mate of mine from here in Christchurch, New Zealand, but he goes to the States pretty much every February, March, for a big ski trip. Does some client work over there. He's got a bunch of clients over there. And I know that he's been to Taos, so that's. That's pretty cool. So we've got connections there, but a lot of people, we were just saying before we started, even in the States, don't really know that you can go skiing in New Mexico. So if you're listening and you want to go skiing in New Mexico, turns out you can. But what was, I guess, what was the backstory to someone going, hey, because when you hear New Mexico, you sort of think cactuses, desert. So. So who was it? How did someone create a ski field or, you know, what was the idea around creating a ski field? Like the history of Taos?

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's kind of a cool history. So Ernie Blake was our founder, and he was Swiss and came to the United States and actually worked for the army, the U.S. army, during World War II. And he.

Led a very interesting life. And he, because of his roots in Europe, loved skiing. He happened to be managing the Santa Fe ski area, which is just south of us. And he would go back and forth between the Santa Fe ski area and the Glenwood ski area in Colorado. He had a little plane, and he always wished to have his own ski area. He would fly these mountains, and he noticed that these mountains here where we are, held snow very much into the spring. And he and.

Alaskan by the name of Pete Totemoff, who was working at the Forest Service at the time. They came and landed and hiked around, and Ernie said, this is the place. This is where I'm going to build a ski area. And. And Pete said, you are crazy. It is too steep. No one's gonna come here. And that didn't deter Ernie. So he and his wife Rhoda, and their three kids, Mickey, Wendy and Peter, came and lived in a little Airstream. There was some existing buildings here from. There used to be mining here at the turn of the century. So. So Ernie started the Skerry in 1955, and the Blake family owned and operated the resort until 2014 when because of all the kind of consolidation and homogenization within the ski industry in the US it just really was really hard for a family owned company to stay competitive. And so they reached out to Louis Bacon, who is our current owner, to see if he would be interested. He had owned property here for about 20 years prior to that and really loved the area and loved the ski resort. And so, you know, we went through that process and it's been about 10 years now. And our owner is a philanthropist and a conservationist. And that really kind of started setting the foundation along with what the Blake family had done with the community to that foundation for certifying as a B Corp. Nice.

Yeah. It seems that the history of most ski fields outside of Europe are some crazy person who goes, I want to go skiing there. And then just through sheer determination, grit will they just put some infrastructure in and make it work. Similar like the nearest mountain to me, Mount Hut. It was a. There was a German guy post Second World War who came over here and was like, I think we could ski here and made it happen.

Yeah, yeah. It's a very similar story. Yeah, it's great. Those folks, they were definitely pioneers and we are very thankful for the foundations they laid for us.

100%. I don't know what my life would be like without skiing.

And so tell us a bit about your role because I. Again, I mean, because. Because you guys are. I know B Lab are like, don't talk about being the only or the biggest or the best, but fundamentally, you guys are the only ski resort that is a B Corp. Certified ski resort. I have been trying really hard. I'm going to send this episode to the CEOs of all the ski fields in New Zealand and go, dudes, dudes, come on. You know, just have a chat with Dawn. It can't be that hard. But yeah, talk us a bit about your role as VP of Social and Environmental responsibility. What. What's. Because I guess in some ways, you know, because sometimes you look at kind of skiing and you go, well, I'm in the outdoors. I'm not really having much of an impact on nature. But typically you've had to drive to the ski resort and then there's these big machines running big lifts and. And you're jamming. I don't know how many thousands of people you get onto your slopes a year, but you're jamming probably thousands of people into buildings and you're having to ship food and beverage and you've got waste so it's kind of like a very natural sport that creates quite a lot of unnatural stuff. So, yeah. What's the key part of your role?

Sure. So my role, I very honestly call got to create myself. So during our ownership change, I was attending a National Ski Rays association winter conference and there was a session with Judy Dorsey with Brendel Group, which is a sustainability consulting firm in Fort Collins, Colorado, and a company called rrc, who had a whole session about the ROI of sustainability efforts ski resorts. And I loved this session. It definitely spoke to me. I thought because of the ownership change and there was a commitment by our owner to invest in upgrading infrastructure and buildings, et cetera, that there was a real opportunity to do it in a sustainable way. And so I came back from that, presented information to our ownership and leadership, and they approved us.

Contracting with Brendel Group to kind of start us on our sustainability journey. And with that, we became part of the NSAA Climate Challenge and started measuring our scope one and two emissions as part of that. So our year was 2014. We started reducing. We started setting out projects in 2015, but we had a pretty antiquated snowmaking system at the time, 30 year old system. And one of the first investments our new owner made was in upgrading that system. And that first year we were able to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by about. We had set a goal of I think 10% by 2020. And we exceeded that goal just that first year. So then we had to really start looking at other projects and that just kind of started snowballing and literally snowballing. Snowballing. Yeah, literally snowballing. Thank you. And we started looking at various other projects we could invest in. And so we did things like we were building. Part of the new ownership was building more lodging here in the base area. And we started looking at LEED certification for that building. So the Blake, which is named for our founding family, is a silver LEED certified building. And we have geothermal wells that push.

Push heat to the building at about, well, push air to the building of about, you know, 50 degrees. And again, I'm sorry that this is all in US terms and metric terms, but 50 degrees. And then from there we can heat and cool the building versus having to create heat when it's really cold or cool it down if it's warmer than that. So.

That was really one of our first big projects. And then again, we just started looking at various things we were doing. We were really investing in our community as far as charitable giving. As I shared, our owner is A philanthropist, and really.

Wanted to make sure we were doing our part to help our community. And so.

Couple years later, we. Our current CEO, David Norton.

Was coming in and he was observing everything we were doing and had a chat with a friend who said, you know, considering what everything the ski resorts do, and you should look at B Corp Certification. We were looking at different types of certifications.

That we thought would align with us. And. And our board of directors did some research.

Our owner did some research, and we got the green light to go ahead and engage in the assessment. So our CEO, our CFO and I sat down and went through the assessment, and we were in the 80 point range, and we just went from there. So I finished up the assessment and got it submitted, and we went through the verification process. And then. So that was the latter part of 2016, and then we certified in February of 2017.

Nice. So 2017.

And so you would have done the research.

In 2020, and then we did.

Our research in the middle of the pandemic.

Yeah, nice, nice. Yeah. Some really good numbers to have. Nothing against that.

Yeah, right.

And so. So you said you kind of created this role. Did you have a background of social and environmental.

No, no, My background has been varied. So I was born and raised in Taos. I grew up here. My grandfather was actually an original investor in the resort with Ernie. He was a doctor at the time, and he and my grandmother came from the Midwest and loved to ski, and that was very much what the family did. So he had an opportunity to invest a partner of his, Al Rosen, for whom one of our very famous runs, Al's Run, is named. They practice medicine together. And Al knew Ernie and told my grandfather about this opportunity. So my grandfather cashed in a life insurance policy and gave it to Ernie. And so as a kid, this is what my family did, is we would come skiing. And so I grew up on this mountain and I was on the ski team.

And then I went away to college. I didn't think I would ever come back to Taos, to be very honest. Taos in New Mexico were small, and I knew there was a big, wide world out there, so I went exploring it.

I had an undergrad degree from the University of Redlands in California in political science and religion. It's a small liberal arts school.

Then I was thinking I was going to be a lawyer. I came home.

And I ski instructed for a season, and then I moved up to Denver for a while, and I came back. I was working for a family law attorney, which was just a nightmare. And the marketing director at the time.

Who was actually Ernie's son in law, said he had a position open in marketing and if I was interested I should come talk to him about it. So I came up and interviewed and spoke to him about it and.

He about a week later said, if you're interested, that position is yours. So that's how I kind of started my career in the industry. So I worked in marketing for a couple years. Then the human resources director, VP of admin, she said, you know, at some point I'm going to retire. Are you interested in what I do here? And I was like, I have no idea what you do here.

Does anyone have any idea what HR does?

Exactly. So I started learning how to like balance the payroll account and just started learning kind of the human resources aspect. So I did human resources for about eight years after that for the resort on a year round basis. And then I didn't mean to work in the industry for 10 years. And I had a bit of a mid-30s crisis and decided to go get a master's in elementary education. And I taught second grade for three years down in Albuquerque.

But I was up here all the time. I miss my friends, I miss my family. I missed just being up here. And so I came back and I came back into the human resources role. And so I did that until the ownership change. And then my role started expanding as I shared in after that NSA conference and really started looking at our sustainability and how we can make an impact. And then B Corp came about and so I was doing HR and our B Corp certification and sustainability.

And then, yeah, the structure of our organization started to change and they asked what I wanted to do and I said, well, I'm happy to continue supporting hr, but I would, you know, really like to dive further into our sustainability efforts. And so that's how that came about. So I still, as part of my role, I still oversee human resources, our admin team, workforce lodging, and then our sustainability efforts. B Corp certification, we're also climate neutral certified and our community relations efforts. So.

Just just a little, just a little bit of.

Just a little bit, just a little. I'm just a little bit busy.

Yeah. And how big's the team at Taos?

Total Team Winter. Total Team Winter. We get close to 900 folks. We have about 200. That number fluctuates a little bit year round team. But you know, with the, with expanding into lodging.

And property management and things like that, workforce lodging, again, that's something that's newer to us. So we've really, you know, our folks, we need more folks to help us out. So. Yeah, so we swell from about 200, 250 in the summertime to.

I think right now as we're gearing up for this season, I think we're about 750, but you know, by the holidays will be well into 850 or so.

Wow. Yeah, it's a decent size.

Yeah.

Organization. I'm really. I thought my degree was random. I've got a degree in medieval history, but.

Oh, perfect. Yeah.

Political science and religion. That sounds. Yeah, that's like a really interesting mix.

Yeah. And I, you know, my, I have a. My sister said you really should major in business. And I was like, why would I do that? I'm never going into business.

Although, I mean, to be honest, there's probably more to learn about business in political science and religion than doing a business like a business degree. Yeah, you, you learn profit and loss and you know, marketing 101. But political, like how to actually get people to do stuff.

Political.

I mean, political science. I'm guessing that must be some stuff around. Okay, well actually, how do you know policy and stuff like that.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's all about kind of the social sciences. Right. I think has been my focus. And I'll tell you what, that master's in elementary education really helps out when you deal with human resources. So.

Yeah. If you can deal with school kids, you can deal with humans in the work environment.

Exactly.

Yeah. You are actually, according to the literature, you are actually behaving like a toddler right now, so.

And I can say that because I have a master's in this subject.

Yeah. I don't think I ever pulled that line out, but now that you've planted it, it's all yours.

It's all yours. Just go check out this link, come back to me. Come up when you're ready. Yeah. That's so cool. I think it's so cool because, you know, I think there's a lot of people that want to get involved in business for good or they're running a business or, you know, they want to do. I mean, a lot of the companies that I help with B Corp, it's. It's not a sustainability person. You know, it's not a sustainability trained person that's running the B Corp. It's normally someone, it's someone like you who's just like, either, hey, I'm really passionate about this, I want to add this to my role, or it's that person in the company who is you know, they call him the gopher. That's just that person who gets stuff done, and they're normally in brand or marketing or ops or finance or something. And it's like, hey, we just know that you're going to get this project done, so could, you know, could you prioritize this amongst your other stuff? So I think it's, it's quite reassuring to know that even large organizations, you know, you, you don't have to necessarily come from that background to be able to nail it and, and start doing stuff. And I do, I think to a degree there, There is a little bit of a, like, oh, you know, sustainability. It's like, any new. I guess, you know, it's a relatively new function. Yes, you need to have a degree. And I mean, yeah, sure, if you want to be certifying and doing a whole bunch of stuff, but actually it's, it's, it's fairly common sense. You just look at what stuff are we doing that's making a negative impact? Let's do less of that. What stuff we're doing that's making a good impact. Let's do more of that.

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're spot on, Tim. I think, you know, like, when we kind of started on, on this journey, there, there weren't a lot of sustainability specialists ever. Right. Like, the person who helped me out for a while, he was a ski patroller in the winter and then did this on the side. And, and that's what I tell a lot of students I speak to, and I speak to.

Either master's programs or undergrad programs that, you know, they're, they're always like, how can you break into the ski industry? And I'm like, you just have to be willing to do a job and then just bring that sustainability lens into your work. And that's how you get started. And we had a great ski resort kind of roundtable at Mountain Towns, which is a Climate Solutions Summit. Yearly Climate Solutions Summit. And we were talking about this very subject of like, the number of people who held like, tandem issue, tandem responsibilities in other departments and how sustainability was just part of their position versus those who were hired into sustainability.

So.

Was that the recent conference where Matt from Destination Queenstown was at?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to his presentation. He was wonderful. Yeah, it was very inspiring.

I'll send him the link so we can have a listen. Yeah, see if he can help us work on the number of B Corp ski fields in Queenstown, because there's only like two or three There you go.

Yeah, something.

Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah. I just think there's value in having a varied background in the workplace, and I just think the humanities are massively undervalued. Have you. Have you come across the guy, Gus Spen? He's got a famous quote which I always butcher. He's. He's a U.S. environmental lawyer. And basically he sort of said, you know, I used to think with 10 years of good science, data and, you know, whatever, we'd be able to convince the world that, you know, we can solve the biggest environmental challenges. But basically, I've realized it's. It's about consciousness, spirituality, and, you know, connection, really, and. And that's, you know, and science can't solve that. And I'm. I'm a big believer in that. But it's actually, I think the humanities are going to save, you know, the planet or create the biggest change, not necessarily science, because it takes people to change, and people don't change when they see data and numbers. They change when they connect and feel and understand and resonate. And, you know, that's what changes humanity. So I think it's actually really cool that. And hopefully inspiring to people that, yeah, you can have a degree in medieval history or political science and religion and get out there and do some good for the. For the planet and try and make some change. So, yeah, that's super cool.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's. I think that's a really important to underscore. I think there's a woman, Dr. Katherine Hayhoe, who does. She's a.

Scientist and also teaches in. Is a professor in Texas, and she is. I would highly recommend looking her up and following her. She does a weekly newsletter that is like, what's going well, what's not going so well and what you can do. And she speaks very much about the importance of that. Honestly, we're all much more aligned around taking action. And it's us talking to other people versus, like, all of the scientific data that gets people motivated to do something.

Yeah, I'm just a big believer, you know, for the B Corp movement, business for good in general, is if you can be showing that you're having a better party, then people want to come hang out with you, and they don't. It doesn't matter about data and, you know, bullet points and the rest. It's just like, we're having more fun and we're not destroying the planet. So do you want to come and be a part of it or not? And that's, you know, My whole vibe at Grow Good is like you could, you can do good and you can have fun at the same time. It doesn't have to be right. Everyone get your sackcloth shirts on. And you know you can't have. Because I think a lot of sustainability is cards don't, shouldn't, you know, it's like, well I get that but instead of pointing out the negative, just show the optionality around the better and you know, I'll give another shout. I think I give a shout out to Nick almost every time I'm talking about this. So the T shirts that I wear, they're from a B corp in Melbourne in Australia and it's fair trade cotton. Like this is just a better T shirt than me buying one from teu, you know, or some other God awful shine or whatever it's called sheen. Like some, some online places it would have been made by a six year old. So it's just better and so you know, wear it. But instead of, you know, throwing rocks at people saying oh you shouldn't wear that, it's like, hey, did you know that for not much more money you can actually get a really cool T shirt that fits really well, it's really comfy and it's been made ethically, like isn't that cool? And I think, yeah, it's just, I think sometimes in the, in the, in the sort of business for good impact purpose sustainability world, a lot of people get beaten down and lose that enthusiasm. But people don't want to hang out with grumpy people telling you you can't do stuff. Oddly enough.

Yep, yep. So our, we had kind of a three word tagline that we used for just basically getting our staff and our communication to outwardly to people and it was enjoy, protect and give back.

So that definitely aligns with your philosophy.

Yeah, nice one.

So yeah, I mean I guess the B corp, so you mentioned, it was kind of mentioned to you by, by someone else and the company was receptive, which is pretty cool because I think quite often particularly, which I think demonstrates the genuine commitment to what the organized organization is all about. Because for you we've got, I think there's a similar example over here in New Zealand. So Sawmill Brewery, to date they are the only brewery beer company in New Zealand that's a B corp and it's like none of the others have jumped on it. And quite often when you see in one sector, if you look at the rest of the food and beverage sector, you know, globally, it's like it's massive. You look at clothing. You've got Patagonia, you've got Cotopaxi, you've got picture outdoor clothing. So it's kind of like, okay, it's a bit of a trend here. But yeah, you and I know there's a few beer companies in the States. Like it's a new Belgium beer company, I think probably the biggest one.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm sure there's a ton of smaller B Corp beers that I don't know. But if you're listening, I'm more than happy to accept something, try them and talk about them on my next podcast.

But it's interesting, like, yeah, you and Sawmill are kind of like these one offs that hasn't been replicated by the rest of the industry. Why do you think that is?

Oh, I think it gets complicated. I think it's, it may be easier for independent businesses. So again, you know, we're independently owned versus being owned by Vale Alterra, you know, Powder Mountain, I mean Powdercore or Boyne. And I think that there's probably a lot of moving parts and a lot of pieces internally that make trying to commit to something like B Corp challenging. It doesn't mean they're not doing great things. And that's something I always tell, whether I'm speaking to businesses or students or whomever that, you know, there are lots of good companies in the world and lots of good companies within our industry who are doing great things. That they don't have a certification doesn't mean they're having less of a positive impact.

So I think again, I think the kind of complexity of the industry like that, it's hard to align everything with where with us. You know, we're one resort and we're not, you know, not multiple resorts. We're not, you know, very top heavy.

And we have the capacity. So I think that's another challenge is with maybe the smaller independent resorts that it is challenging to find the capacity to dedicate that time and effort towards certification. Whereas you can still get a bit of a foundation just by going through the assessment. I've known companies.

Within New Mexico, we have about a dozen certified B Corps. So we're pretty small compared to other. Even just north of us in Colorado that have over 100 certified B Corps. So we're still a pretty small community. But I think that just, I think finding the capacity to.

Pursue certification I think is daunting. So I think it's that internal alignment along with the capacity and I think.

That'S fair summary for most companies that undertake B Corp the really, really big ones, it just gets complicated. It's really tricky. It can be a multi year process, you know, to, to, to get either across the 80 or get the alignment. Sometimes for bigger companies it's just a case of actually, you know, for the head of HR going, hang on, we, we've got an office in Guatemala. Since when? And you know, how many, how many people are in the office? Like, what's going on? Like quite often I, I heard back to breweries, there was a, I remember talking to one of the bigger brewery people in New Zealand and they were talking about how literally they discovered like two warehouses of beer that they did not know existed. And when they, when they actually got there they realized that the beer had all got off and they had to basically pour it down the drain. I'm like, that's criminal.

Like, oh, that's awesome.

Surely there's something you could have done with some beer that was slightly off. I don't know. How could you not know? It's like some companies are so big, it's like, how can you not know.

That you, that you have two warehouses?

Yeah, it's just like.

And again, you know, with the B Corp journey, smaller companies, it's like I say it's that resource. Like we'd love to do this but we're just fighting fires, you know, shameless plug. I mean, guess that that's kind of what I'm here to do. So if you are time poor and want some help, I might know a guy. But yeah, it's, it's really common. It's so it's that Goldilock size company in the middle like you guys, where you've got enough resource and you've got somebody who go yeah, actually, you know, this, this can be part of my role. Happy days. But yeah would be it and I totally get it, you know, with some of those. But I, I don't know the full scene, you know, sort of market of the ski world in, in the U.S. but you, you hear, you know and you see things about, you know, the Vale, massive resorts, massive lift ticket fees. It just, it seems to be prioritization around sort of experience and rather than, you know what, clearly when people go to your website it's and, and the fact, I just think the very heritage and the story that you've articulated, it's like clear that, that you've got this real bedrock of actually doing good is, is what we're all about. Like I say not say that the others aren't doing some good stuff, but I think it would be fair to say there's. There's a. There's a level of extra authenticity, which I think is. Is always really the key for me of a true, true B Corp. It's like if you. If you cut the company in half, is it all the way through, or is it just like a little thin veneer of, yeah, we're just trying to be less bad than maybe we used to be? And I think it's clear that you guys have built from that foundation of. Now, look, we've always tried to do good, and at least now we've got a methodology and a framework on how to keep doing more good or be better, which is why I call it the Be Better podcast.

Yeah. And, you know, I think on that point, we're unique in that a lot of scarier communities.

The community's built up because of the ski area. So if you look at, like, an Aspen or avail. Telluride, places like that, you know, a lot of those communities grew up because of the ski area being there. Whereas we. Right. Our community, the Taos community, would be there with or without us. We have a Native American pueblo, Taos Pueblo, that has been continuously inhabited for over a thousand years. And then we have a rich Hispanic culture here that came in with the Spanish conquests in the mid-1500s. So, again, those are. Those are.

Really one.

Sets us apart in that we know that there is a broader community and folks who would have no interest in skiing. To be quite honest, there's a very rich artist community here that's been in existence since the early 1900s. So I think that because of those aspects about where we're located and just the rich diversity where we are really.

Might have situated us in a way that. That was part of our DNA from the beginning.

That's. Yeah. Rather than. I've just been catching up with the last season of Yellowstone and then that whole kind of like, you know, yeah, let's build a big ski field and resorts and these beautiful rural. Yeah, it's. It's kind of. You can see how. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's the challenge that tourism more broadly faces. I know that's what, you know, like, the guys at Mata Destination Queenstown, it's like, you know, we've. We've created. I think that's the challenge when you. When you create a destination town or city and it relies on the destination, if there's nothing underneath it.

You know, And I. I know Matt's spoken at an event that I ran last Year in Queenstown, you know, about how, you know, Covid, you know, almost killed us financially. And it's like, how do you build that resilience around resort towns? And I guess that's quite. It's, it's. It's. You just. Yeah, you're just quite an interesting case where, like, you say you're, you. You're not core to the. To the. To the region. It's like you're, you're an addition. But if you weren't there, you know, I'm sure, yeah, the team and everyone would miss it. But. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear that. I think it's the same. I'd say it's the same with. Well, I suppose the ski fields here are slightly different. Like Queenstown.

Thinking of the south island one, some of them. There's a lot of what are called club fields here. So, you know, in some cases, it's literally just like a tractor engine with a rope toe on it, you know, not employing a huge number of people, you know, necessarily. So, yeah, if they sort of disappeared, I'm sure people would utterly miss them. But, yeah, it's not like they're. They're core to people getting to that region. Whereas I think, yeah, Queenstown is probably a little bit less exposed because it's got the summer activities and there's a bunch of stuff you can do that's not skiing. But skiing is a big draw card for people to go there. So. Yeah, that's just sort of interesting to reflect on. On that difference. Yeah, I think I, I, obviously we chatted a couple of times before, but I really want to come. I feel Carrie, I think my mate Carrie should just pay for me to come with him next time he goes, great idea.

I think. I think, right, there's got to be. He has to have like a companion fair or something. Right.

Surely, surely, surely. He's got a broken wrist at the minute, so he will definitely need a companion.

He might have to come in his stead then.

Yeah, like. Yeah, I think that's right. I will be sending this episode to him straight away. No, I'm generally. I do, I do definitely want to get. I know we're sort of possibly scheming about some stuff to get me out to Taos next year, the year after. So, yeah, watch the space.

So, yeah, so B Corp. In terms of, like, going through the process. So it's. Obviously you kind of already started doing some stuff, so you weren't, you weren't coming at it from, you know, a zero. You know or from, you know, we've got no idea what we're doing. But yeah. Eddie, any reflections on, on that journey? Like was, was there stuff that you. Because again, we were talking before we started, you know, on the B Corp assessment and I hear this refrain from clients frequently. It's like this assessment's kind of rigged. It's not, it doesn't fit my business. You know, my business is so unique. And it's like, well, yes, this is a generic framework that has need to be applicable to everything from a farm to a small one woman service company or you know, fruit seller in the middle of nowhere. So yes, it's not going to be perfect for every business, but clearly a ski field is possibly not what they had in mind when they were creating this impact assessment. So yeah, just any kind of reflections, you know, good, bad, ugly, indifferent. Any surprises as you went through the initial process and, and I guess over the research that you've been involved in.

Sure, yeah. So, you know, our experience with our initial certification.

You know, as we were going through the assessment, there were, there were some basic things where we were like, we're answering no to it on this assessment, but there's no reason why we couldn't do that. Right. So for example, one of the questions I think in the, in the workers section has to do with offering.

You know, ESR funds in your 401k plan. Like, do you offer those? And we're like, no, but why can't we? So you know, then after we certified, right, like you're already thinking about how you can be better the next time around. So we reached out to our investment Advisor with our 401k plan and said, hey, we are interested in bringing ESR funds into our.

As an investing option. Interestingly, at the time there was initial concern by our incentive because the IRS had actually explicitly said that your fiduciary duty in a 401 plan is for maximizing earnings.

For your team and that that was not a consideration you could make. And then the irs, there was some things going on, I guess internally and there was language that did allow us to have ESR funds. So we worked with them to build out. We have model portfolios as part of our 401k plan, depending on your risk tolerance. So they created three more model portfolios to allow staff to invest both their kind of investment tolerance as well as into ESG funds. So that's one example. And then certainly I felt like we were maybe ahead of things with regard to our carbon emission tracking for scope one and scope two emissions. So the NSA climate challenge had required us to do that. And that really, I would say when we certified initially, those environmental questions were pretty dang easy.

Because we had already had collected all of that data. That seems to evolve now. And it looks like, you know, in version seven, that there will be a greater emphasis as there should be, on companies measuring their carbon emissions and reducing them. So those are kind of two takeaways. One, I think from our second recertification.

That was challenging. It had, I think it's on the community front, kind of your economic impact on community. And at that point they talked about local purchasing within a 200 mile radius of your main operations. And in the second certification they reduce that to 50 miles. We are 20 miles from the town of town, which is very rural. We're in a very rural place. So to try to, you know, do a lot of your have focusing your supply chain within 50 miles is really kind of ridiculous. Ask of us. So I've definitely shared feedback about that. So, so, and you know, we found certainly in this last recertification, so we recertified again in August.

There is an education of the analysts that takes place when you're the only ski resort who is certified. Right.

Just imagine them turning up and going, sorry, you're a what?

Right? So there is some education pieces as you're going through the verification process that you need to do with the analyst or the.

Standard, you know, the standards team or whoever, you know, is looking at your submission. So, you know, that tends to get challenging.

Trying to do that education because sometimes you feel like they get it and sometimes you don't feel like they get it. So. But I can imagine we're not the only company that feels that way.

Yeah, I definitely feel, I'm just trying to look up the lady's name because I know for my first, I think it was two certifications. I think her name was Julie Strasberger. She was, she was either a German lady based in the Netherlands or a Dutch lady based in Germany. But anyway, she did like my first two or three certifications. And so the second time around I was like, oh, hey Tim. It's like, hey, how's it going? And it's kind of like, you know, back then, I mean, you would have been the same like when you guys. I mean, I first certified 2016, so yeah, there was, there was only like a thousand plus B corps globally. So, you know, it was a bit easier for maybe an auditor to remember you from the last time. So the second time around it's like, oh, yeah, I kind of vaguely remember you. I vaguely remember your business. Yeah, that's all good. That's all the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like relatively easy again, you know, shameless plug. But I think that's one of the advantages of having a consistent consultant help you. Is like a big part of my job is actually defense counsel as much as sustainability advice. Because I can go, well, look, I know that there's 20 other companies that have got that point. So if your auditor is saying no, you know, I can send them the evidence or I, I can say, you can go and have a look at these companies and see that they've been awarded those points for the same thing. So either they get them taken off or we get them added on type thing. And so, yeah, some, sometimes it's just having that experience in your corner to go, I get it because, because, yeah, you know.

An audit is an audit. There is a benchmark. But with a lot of the points around B Corp, there's a lot of nuance and contextuality and particularly when you're, you're like, you say a ski resort or a company that's kind of like, well, we kind of sell beverages, but they're, you know, they're in a different form. You know what I mean? It's like if, if you're just not quite run of the mill, it sometimes does get a bit, you know. Yeah. And so having that, that, that, yeah. Call a person just to back you up is sometimes. Yeah. Useful.

Yeah. And you know, I would say, I think, I think another thing that we experienced is in the U.S. they, I think, require. Now, when we first certified, it was not a requirement, but as a. For you to.

Oh, I'm forgetting the name, but it's where you, I'm sorry, you register as a Benefit Corp, Right. For your company in the US and so the first round, we didn't have Benefit Corp. Legislation passed in the state of New Mexico in 2020. It like just had, it had just passed and the analyst was saying that we had to do it, whereas we had received counsel previously from actually some a B lab council person that said, no, you don't have to do it because you've already done the, the government, you know, the legal requirement. And so, and then this time we had to do it. So those are some examples of like, okay, are we doing this or not doing it?

So we had the same say in news. So for people who are curious about the B Corp journey, there is now a requirement that you have to update your articles of incorporation or your constitution or whatever it's called in your local, you know, jurisdiction. And so in, in New Zealand, it's one of the only countries in the world where you don't have to have a constitution or articles of incorporation when you start a company. So when you start a company, you're just governed by the Companies Act 1993, which is basically a, a template constitution. And so we had a very similar thing here in New Zealand, particularly for small, small to medium businesses who have got no need for a constitution because it's, you know, in my case it's me, my wife for shareholders of, of grow good. It's like, you know, we don't need a big constitution at all. And so this was the thing like all these small to medium companies go, we don't have a constitution, but if we did, we totally put the purpose of stakeholder clause in it. So can we not just have a document that says we, we adopt these clauses? And so it was like this similar thing like this Kafka esque wheel of no, you must have a constitution. But we don't have a constitution and we don't legally need to have one. But you need a constitution. It's like, so in the end, I was actually working with a law firm on their B corp and I said, hey, I don't suppose is there such a thing as a template constitution? And they're like, not really, but we could knock one up for you. And I was like, fantastic. So for my New Zealand clients, I now have a template constitution. So for all the small to medium ones, it's like, cool, you don't have one. Here's one. It's got all the everything that you need and basically it's the company's act written out into a constitution. So you just need to go and upload it. But yes, sometimes. But I kind of feel like it's reassuring that sometimes they are a bit like that because it's like, well, you're a certification standard company. And if they say that's the standard, that's the standard. But I, I think ultimately they do see sense and go, okay, we kind of get it. Like you can't actually, like you cannot actually do that. Cool, okay, we'll give you a note from the teacher to say okay, yes, here's the workaround. So yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you know, so I think again, you know, I think each company is, is different, right? Like whether even if it there, as you said, you know, a lot of.

Beverage companies or Food companies within the B Corp realm. That, that, that they're often. But each of those companies is unique. Right. And so they, you know, fit into the standards. I think is, is going to be different.

So one of my favorite things, just, just remember, just like everybody else, you're unique.

That's a great.

Super cool.

So yeah, no, that's cool. Yeah. I mean if, you know, if B Corp was easy, everyone would be doing it. It, there's all, you know, it's a journey. There's always going to be dragons to slay, there's going to be ups and downs. You know, just embrace it. Like I say, you know, I think approach it with a positive mindset. Yep. You know, we're gonna. And I think your approach was spot on. And really that's kind of my approach when I help people. It's like, okay, you're not doing this, but I think you could easily do that. And this is what that would look like.

Exactly.

That's, yeah, that's, that's why I like working with, with sort of privately owned medium sized companies because it's like the CEOs in the room. Are you metaphysically opposed to trying to offer your employees a better savings option? No, I think it's a really cool idea. Great. Well let's go and see if we can do it easy.

Yeah. And that's the cool thing is one I think, you know, the B Corp community you can always rely on like hey, how did you do this? And like what work worked for you? Or tell us like what didn't work for you on this so that we cannot have to go through that learning process so that, you know, I've always said what I really appreciate about being a certified B Corp is that we have a community that constantly inspires as well as challenges us to be better. So that's something I just, the I've.

Wasn'T an expectation going into our B Corp certification that you would just have this amazing community of B corps who are willing to lean in and help each other out and share, you know, best practices. So that's something I've really come to appreciate. And you know, frankly I think we were grateful that we were a certified B Corp when the pandemic hit. I think it helped us with our decision making and how we operated as a business when everything was starting to shut down, etc. And what we were going to do with our staff, etcetera, you know, et cetera, et cetera for our community. So there, there was having that foundation to that very tumultuous. Time was really, really helpful for us.

Yeah, I totally agree. I'm. I'm working on. Well, shout out to another mate, my Carl Davidson. He's actually been on the podcast, but when I first started the podcast, it was slightly broader than just B Corp. It was like purpose and bit of other stuff. But anyway, he works, he's all about critical thinking and research. He runs a company called True Wind, so if you're looking for some research projects to be done for your company, he's your man. But he also teaches at the University of Canterbury locally, and, and I once I've said to him, hey, look, you put me in contact with the right person because I, I want to do it. So I know, like, there's heaps of data that shows, you know, B Corps more resilient. They were more resilient during the pandemic. In general, you know, they survived, but it was the same post GFC 2008. B Corps outperformed the market in terms of survivability. Now, my, my. They don't say why, they just sort of said they were. And I want to try and get someone from UC here to do the study, but because my theory is exactly what you've just articulated is if you, if you as a B Corp, you're, you're, you know, willing and able to treat your stakeholders with more dignity and respect. So you look after your employees, you do what's right. You know, the hard right decision, like the easy wrong decision would be, hey, everyone, sorry there's no people skiing, so see you later, you know, good luck. Similarly, with your supply chain, with your investors, with your local community. My theory is B Corps are more resilient because they have better, stronger relationships with their key stakeholders, which means everyone's willing to see you win because they recognize the good that you're doing. Whereas if what I call Big Evil Bastards, Inc. If you're just like, hey, sorry, suppliers, but we're not paying that invoice, even though you've shipped all the food because we've got nowhere to buy it, or, you know, hey, sorry, employees, but yeah, you know, good luck and we're not going to repatriate. You'll get you home or, you know, people will remember that and next time around they're not going to help you. So I think there's this element of reciprocity and connection that B Corpse creates amongst their sort of key stakeholders. And that's what I want to go get studies. Maybe we could see if we could include you in that study.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it goes back to what we kind of started off with about humanity and connection. Right. Like, I think that that's, that's definitely within the fabric of B Corp is. Is Right. The emphasis on humanity and connection. And, and those are what I think probably time and time again have gotten.

Our world to that next spot during tumultuous times.

So another thing I say frequently in sort of workshops and events is, you know, people won't remember what you had. They remember what you did and how you did it. And you know, that again, it's that connection. It's that, how did that. How did that person make me feel, you know, rather than, you know, oh, look. Look at the amazing stuff that they collected on the. On their journey. But I think the end of the modern world. It was interesting that when you were talking about just the employee sort of superannuational pension schemes, we would call it over here, retirement fund. It's like, no, you have to maximize the return for them. It's like, well, okay, so what, we just invest in whatever's making money. Okay.

Whether it's doing more harm than good. Right.

It's like, do I get any. And I. And I get no optionality around that. That's dictated from the top. Yeah. I mean there's. It's crazy that we're in 2024 and that's still like, there's things like that still out there. It's like, really?

Yeah. And seem to be making a comeback. Right?

Yeah.

And so where's. In terms of like impact improvement, what are some big projects or wins or thoughts you've got for being better at Taos?

Yeah, I think it's really balancing all of those areas. So whether it's on the environmental front, we have like a lot of the B Corp community have committed to a net 0, 2030 goal of reducing our emissions to the greatest extent possible. So a lot of our efforts are looking at what we can do to.

Especially on our building efficiency. That's our biggest source of carbon emissions. Things like.

I don't know what this looks like in New Zealand, but renewable diesel, which is pretty prominent in Europe but has not really taken off here in the US is something we're actually implementing this winter. So it's just a drop in fuel. So you don't. There isn't a lot of. There isn't any like, changes to the machinery you have to do to allow for the renewable diesel.

So certainly environmental is really forefront for us. I think it's obvious. I mean, we have, you know, it's about being in the mountains and we're definitely seeing those impacts of climate change here. So I think that's probably true for most ski areas. So environmentalist forefront, again, really making sure our staff is taken care of, whether that's career development opportunities, whether that is looking at other living wage. We just went through a process with the Living Wage Institute to look at all of our benefits and how that impacts the monetary wage. So we're learning all about that.

Certainly on the community front, we are rededicating ourselves to uplifting the youth of our community and.

Aligning our charitable giving with that. So we're creating a fund we're calling the Uplift Youth Fund that will seek projects to support youth in our community.

And then obviously customers, all of that feedback, I think our weakest honest and it's a tough nut to crack. But supply chain for us is really challenging. So.

We do what we can, whether that's on the food and beverage side or the operations side or the retail side, without having kind of a consolidated purchaser. We're very unconsolidated the supply chain impacts and what we can do there.

That's definitely one of our biggest challenges.

Any opportunities to create opportunities locally, like, could you go, I mean, like I say, without having been there, you know, is. Is there a local brewery in TA that you could go, hey, could you guys make some beer for us? And you know, we, we'll just get it up the hill or I mean it's, it's always tough because there's, you know, there's scale and there's going to be some stuff that you're going to need at scale, like the uniforms and, you know, ski patrol medical kit that like, you can't just get that made locally.

But yeah, just right, you can't.

Apparently there's only a couple of companies that make that stuff.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And I think that's a challenge for our industry. But certainly that is definitely one of our tenants is trying to do as much business locally as we can. So for instance, there's a native owned.

Kind of bath product company called Bison Star Naturals. And for all of the bathroom amenities in the hotel, we switched from a company we were using in Arizona to them. So they're family owned and so we're carrying all of their products in the hotel. Now there's a local company called Teography and our food and beverage team.

Contracts with them and we have like a special blend and then carry some of their other teas and they're a local woman owned company. Even for some of our larger.

Construction projects, we've committed to a company out of Albuquerque. It's a women owned general contractor. So we are always looking for opportunities, whether locally, whether that's within the Taos community or even in New Mexico, on how to partner with them. So whether it's again, in our retail shops or in food and beverage or things like the hotel, we try to feature local companies. We also owned some lease spaces that.

Small.

Small, like retailers will rent from us and typically a lot of those folks have a shop in town as well. So it helps drive business to their, to their shops.

Nice. Super cool. Because I think it's a show, you know, because it's. You go to a lot of resorts or, or I say you go to a lot, but I don't travel that much and you know, not that often. But you know, historically you go to a flashy hotel, you stay at a Hilton, it's like every other Hilton around the world or, you know, whatever. And I think that's really cool because, because you want to go away and have the local tea or the local beer or the local food rather than, oh, great. It's just, I mean, because we, we were actually in Arizona in January and you know, it's like, cool, I'm gonna try cactus fries because I ain't getting them anywhere else. Possibly in New Mexico, I don't know. But it's like not many other places in the world are you going to get cactus fries. So having, having that local expert, that's part of that again, it's part of that connection, that community, that understanding how other people do things in different ways and, you know, connecting to that. I mean, do you get any direct connection with the, with your clients? Customers, Consumers, however you describe them, like, do you get feedback as to whether it's making a difference? Do people care about that kind of stuff? Because I think some people kind of go, oh, it sounds, this sounds a bit hard. And you know, got to go out of our way. You know, we could just go buy soap from the cheapest person that sells soap to all hotels, resorts in the U.S. like, do you get feedback that it matters?

Oh, absolutely. For us it does. Right. Again, again, I think, you know, Taos is unique in that we are in a pretty interesting region. Right. Diversity wise. And people come to visit us because of that. They're not coming and expecting, you know, another. I don't want to, you know, it's not like you're run of the mill.

Yeah.

Homogeneous, standardized hotel like that, you expect a Starbucks or whatever. That's totally not us. We are not an i70 resort like Colorado or. Right. We. People come to the Southwest and particularly task to experience something that is different and unique and that they. It's. It's like being able to go to another country without having to leave the U.S. right? And so I think a lot of folks, because of that Native American influence or the Hispanic influence or the artistic influence, really seek those experiences out when they visit Taos so that, you know, the food is different. Right. The official question in New Mexico is red or green, and that means what type of chili you prefer on your food.

So there's. So there's. Right. Like New Mexico in general is kind of this weird, funky place and the architecture is different. Right. We just, we don't. We're just. We're just really different. And people want to lean into that difference because they make that. It makes that expression. Experience richer for them instead of just like going and, you know, kind of having the same types of shops and things that you would in. In, you know, your local city or whatever.

That's super cool. Super cool.

I just can't wait to come over.

Yes. I'm so excited for you to come over.

I really want to make it happen. Yeah, I can't wait. I can't wait to go over there and come and have a ski. Meet you in person.

So. Yeah. Anything else that you want to talk about? I think we kind of. We're a natural end point for me. Any other thoughts or.

Yeah.

We'Ve covered the highlights. I think it's fun and just like, you know, you've shared. I'm always willing to talk to folks who are interested in either what we're doing or how we're doing things. And again, you know, emphasizing you may not have to pursue certification. You can still do. You can still grow good in ways that really support those efforts, but, you know, not seek certification or, you know, there are ways that you. If you are, you know, working in food and beverage or in a. In a rental shop or something like that, where you may feel like you don't have a lot of influence at a ski resort, but you do. And it's just a matter of bringing things up and doing the research and saying, you know, what if we try this? And I think you'll find a lot of resorts and operations are very open to trying something because very likely it will improve either the guest experience, the staff experience, or will help the environment. And so I think that's Something just to really emphasize with folks that, you know, start in way, you know, I forget what the saying is, but kind of, you know, do what you can with what you have with where you.

Are.

100% and that's what a great place to, to close on. Yeah, that's exactly what I tell people. It's like, you know, start, do what you can with what you've got. Don't worry about perfection. You know, there is still no 200 point B corp. You know, we did an. The event we did in Queenstown last year was hosted by Patagonia in their retail store in Queenstown. And I, I kind of kept picking on them a little bit because it's like Patagonia, one of the historically highest scoring. I think they always hit somewhere like 160ish, 170ish maybe, and have done like since really their first B Corp, I think, give or take. And it's like I kept saying, look, you know, even these guys aren't perfect, but like, they're bloody amazing. So, yeah, don't let perfection stop you getting. And I think the other thing, you know, to end on as well would be like, you know, to go and have a go at the B Corp impact assessment. It's completely free and it's a framework that you just start at question one and you work your way through and it will give you a whole bunch of ideas. And even, you know, for companies that are on the journey like you guys were, it'll go, oh, we haven't, we hadn't really thought about that, but now we know that that's a thing. Let's go, let's go and see if we can do that.

Exactly. Yeah.

And I think also to your point about if you're what I call the concerned citizen, the, the employee in the company who's like, hey, why do we always wrap this thing in plastic? Or why does this thing always have to come from, you know, Denmark when I know that there's one down the road? It's like, well, quite often in companies things just happen because that's how they've always happened. And no one's actually gone, hang on a minute. And if you're, if you're, an employee or, you know, a concerned citizen, if you go to your manager or your boss and go, hey, I, I think I've discovered something where we could be more efficient and do more good. If that manager or boss isn't interested in that conversation, you're probably in the wrong job anyway. You know what I mean? It's like most, most good bosses would go, wow, okay, tell me more. Okay. And even, you know, to your experience, it's like, hey, I'd like to have a go at this. Like having someone in your business who goes, hey, I'd like to step up. And here's a bit of a. I haven't got the answers, but I've got a bit of an idea as to what I think I could do all day long. Those are the sorts of people you want in a business, so don't be afraid to kind of go, hey, yeah.

Yeah, raise your hand. Absolutely.

Grow some good. So for people who we will get this episode turned around real quick. So I know it's the beginning of your. Your season, and so we want to get this out there for some promo. So for people who have been living under a rock, not under a cactus, and don't know that they can go and ski in New Mexico, how do they come and find Taos Ski field on the interwebs? What's your.

What's your. Yeah, yeah. Please visit Ski Taos so S K I T A O s dot com and you get to see how amazing we are. And yeah, February, March, those are great times to come visit. That's when. When Mother Nature definitely blesses us with.

Some great snow. So nice.

So you got plenty of time to book in your trip to Taos. So get amongst it and yeah, go and get yourself some wonder alpine skis or a western backcountry snowboard. They do split boards if you're into that crazy stuff. Go and get yourself some B Corp, you know, Patagonia kit, get your picture, outdoor clothing, whatever you're into, and get yourself down to T for a bit. Ski. Hey, D. Thank you so much. It's been really, really cool to get to know you a bit more. And like I said, I'm just absolutely championing the bit to get out there and come for a ski with you and maybe bring some other B corpse with us.

Yeah, I think it'll be a bunch of fun. It would be a fun, A fun gathering indeed. And we can grow some more good together, I reckon.

And so, yeah, listeners, if you've been inspired by what Dawn's up to, and if you haven't been, then, I don't know, you're listening to the wrong podcast. But yeah, if you've been inspired, you know, go and take some action. Go and have a go at the B Corp Impact assessment. It's completely free. If you just Google BE Impact assessment or if you can't find it. I'm sure it will probably be in the show notes. You've got my ebook you can check out. There's a bunch of other podcasts you can go check out for some inspiration, but it's. It's easy. All you got to do is just do something. Just, you know, be better than you are today. And it's an easy, easy journey. So, yeah, once again, dawn, thank you so much. We'll hopefully catch you in person soon.

I hope so. Thank you so much for having me, Tim.

So, yeah.

Cool. End recording. There we go.

Hey, it's Tim here, that B Corp bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.