#94 Stoked for the Pow with Leo Tsuo of Weston Backcountry

Hey, Kia ora. Good day, Shamai. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Be Better podcast. Before I get stuck into this episode, I have to remember to give a couple of shout outs. One, I'll give a shout out to Nick from Etiko for my new merch. If you're watching the video of this, I've just got my new Etiko Grow Good branded T shirts, Fair trade, B Corp certified. Go, Nick. Love your work. And also shout out to former colleague of mine, Dave Crosby, who is a listener to the podcast. We, Dave and I worked together. I don't know, feels like probably like 20 years ago now. And we chat on WhatsApp. And he said, oh, I loved your last episode of the podcast. And so I said, I'll give him a shout out. And apparently his son will think he is the most famous person in the world for having a shout out on a podcast. So hopefully that's worked for you, Dave.

Without further ado, let's get into this latest episode because I am super excited for this episode. People that know me well will know that there's two things I love a lot in the world other than my family, obviously, and that is B Corp and skiing. And so today I have got the awesome Leo from Western Skis, and we are going to just be talking all things baby. B Corp and skiing. So, Leo, welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Technically, it's Western backcountry. Sorry, we do backcountry and snowboard. No, honestly, it's a, it's a, it's an honor to actually be considered Weston skis because that's a category we jumped into probably like four years ago. And whenever people refer to us like, as only knowing our skis, that's like, that's like a win in our book.

So I've just been digging. Have you been. Have you seen any of the hot dog hands videos on YouTube with that freestyle?

Oh, you know it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're single, Planker. Get off the. Get off.

I'm very much a, a pro skier. Less so convinced on snowbody. But we'll, we'll leave those, we'll leave those conversations for a separate podcast.

That was very, very awesome to, to have you do that, that Boston accent. So.

I did. I went to New York once and yeah, we, we, we were out with like some stupid time in the morning and we were walking past all the hotels on this one street asking the guys to, to tell us to get the hell out of there in their best New York accent or Boston accent. And they, they loved it. Yeah.

It'S great.

Wonderful.

So for people who don't know Leo and don't know Western backcountry skis, just give us a quick intro like. Yeah, who are you and, and, and what's Western backcountry all about?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, my name is Leo Tool. Um, I am, you know, from Golden, Colorado. It's right in the foothills of the Rockies and just outside of Denver. And it's where I grew up. So, you know, I really grew up in the outdoors. I was practically feral with a bike. And you know, that's so that's what I know, you know, in Boy Scouts from a real young age. And you know, my, my parents were really big and get me into the outdoors. I had a career in renewable energies before this. I went to school in CU Boulder, which for people who know Boulder, it's a very kind of, it's its own beast, if you will. It's almost so far left. It's a, it's a, it's almost a foul ball. But it's kind of known as like just being, being really, really progressive in a lot of their city policies. And it kind of kind of shows a little bit in the, in the, in the school itself too. And, and honestly that's where I got really introduced to the concept of like really entrepreneurship, you know, corporate social responsibility, that purpose driven, values driven companies and kind of said to myself, I, that's, that's what I want to be a part of the first company. I actually started out my career in working for an inc and doing some business plan writing and essentially taking like inventors, scientists name, you know.

Those type of people there, take an idea and put it into, you know, something that can be put in front of investors. And so, you know, worked with my uncle, found out I was doing this and he had a business idea in the renewable space. And I did that, wrote a business plan, did a financial model for him and I was so intrigued by it, I said, hey, once I finish my master's degree, do I have a job? He was like, no. He said, you gotta just quit your master's degree now and come out and do this because this is an opportunity that he is like, I need somebody on the ground now. So we did that for seven or eight years. You know, it was, it was a really, really challenging time.

Very capital intensive. And it was, it was a great experience. And you know, when I got out of that, I said, okay, I'm going to do something a little bit less capital intensive and Just something that was really aligned with what I. What I loved, and that was, you know, skiing and board garden. So I was actually on track to become a guide and wanted to. Because I just love sharing my stoke for the powder, when I'd probably be, like, kind of the antithesis of. Have you ever heard the. The saying, no friends on a powder day?

Yep.

Yeah, I'm the antithesis of that. Like, I only want friends. I. I want people to be around.

Yeah, exactly.

I. I would grab people off the chairlift and be like, yo, come check out this stash. And, like, just keep up, you know? And. And because I love just riding with people. I loved seeing. Getting people stoked. And that really is just the ethos of. Of. Of Weston and just getting out there, getting people stoked on it. And we. The backcountry piece, too. It's. A lot of it is just because of the. The powder that's back there. But when I got into the backcountry, it was a really. Not the most welcoming space, I guess you could say it. It felt. I, you know, was. I was that idiot that just saw a bunch of tracks and then just started booting up with a snowboard by myself. No pack, no gear, nothing. And so I got yelled at all the time, you know, like, oh, you're not prepared. You're. You're. This, this. Quit booting in the skin track. This, this, this. And. And it was.

It was.

You know, it just didn't make me want to be in the backcountry. But I'm just that stubborn asshole. Oh, sorry. I'm just stubborn. It's like, I'm gonna keep doing this. I don't care what you think. And as I got into it, even started getting my certifications, getting the gear, it was not the. I found that it was having to create your own community. Like, you. You're gonna get what you put into it. And that again, that's really the ethos of Weston. You know, my hobby, my two main hobbies growing up from kind of like college, high school, college on, was snowboarding, skateboarding and breaking and break dancing, as people call it, right? And in breaking, it's all about creating your own community. And if you don't do it, it doesn't exist. And it's such a small and niche thing. So that was no question to me. I'm like, all right, if I don't like the way that this community is operating in terms of. And I mean, the backcountry community, if I don't like the Way the backcountry is community in terms of that kind of gatekeeping elitism that was going on. I was like, I'm going to change it. And so that's what I brought to Weston. And luckily for us, it, it really worked. And I think that, you know, we saw the whole industry as kind of this very aspirational towards these insanely steep lines. And it's just like, and stuff that you'll never, even if you go and pay thousands of dollars to go heli ski in Alaska, you're never going to ride most of the lines you see in the videos. Right. Most people's backcountry experience is going to be in just some, you know, small, you know, abandoned resort or just a small backcountry zone just to get out and get some exercise. We were like, okay, like that's, that's the reality of where we're at. You know, like let's. That's our target customer right there. We're not targeting the people that are, you know, paying 20,000, 30, $40,000 to go ride spine lines in Alaska for a month. That's just not our, our, our people. So we were like, yeah, more, more power to you if you're going to take our boards and do it. But, you know, are. We kind of defined our target audience as just the everyday backcountry rider. And it worked for us. And so as of 2019, 2020, we were the top, the number two snowboard or split board company by sales. And as of last year, I want to say 2023, we were named the. In the top 25 backcountry brands. So it was kind of like a, it's just like a survey. People have to ride in brands are in. So we were stoked. That was like our high five moment. So yeah, that's us in a nutshell.

Nice, man. Because you found it in what, 2012?

Yeah, or I didn't. It was actually another gentleman named Barry Clark. He's a surfer dude from Seattle. And so the. Our lineup has very surf inspired shapes. Very, you know, a lot of, lot of swallow tails. And the way we got into skiing actually is he had two sons, he had one snowboarding son and one skiing. And so, you know, to be fair to each kid, he started making skis. And you know, even though our. When I was primarily a snowboarder, I actually started skiing. But you know, once we started to have more momentum and had people in our crew that did both and you know, for a while our production manager, he was a skier so we were like, you know what? Like, we can speak better to the backcountry ski audience than we can like the grungy freestyle, you know, thrasher, you know, kid that's, you know, rocking the hoodie, you know, just park rat.

Kind of like, yeah, you stop, get off the pace.

It's all love, you know, I used to be one of those park rats. But, you know, we just kind of, what, what it really was is we. So we did a lot of education stuff, you know, back to the whole community building piece. Right. So we were like, hey, what is missing out there? You know, there's this huge gap between getting Avalanche certified and taking your actual first steps literally and figuratively into the backcountry. And we, you know, I, when I used to teach this myself, it was called the splitboard 101. And in the beginning I'd ask, who all here is the split boarder? And a bunch of people wouldn't raise their hands. And I was like, are a bunch of skiers coming to the splitboard 101? And so we were already marketing to that audience. And so, yeah, it was like, why not launch skis? It's in so far. It's been, it's been doing well. But yeah, that was why we did skis and snowboards. And I took over the company in 2016. I was working with him initially since 2014, and for a bunch of reasons, he ended up selling the company, me, and then took it from there.

So. Awesome. And I think the community thing for me is. Is such a big thing. So, I mean, I, I've literally got a Facebook messenger group called Cheeky Midwick Ski Team. And so there's a bunch of us who are mainly self employed, a couple of people who've got, you know, I guess, nice employers who don't mind and, you know, they've got maybe lower levels of commitment, which would mean that they can, you know, take a midweek holiday and go for a ski day. And skiing by yourself is really, it's not much fun. Every time I go to the mountain by myself, I just have a bad day. I don't ski as well. You know, for me, a big part of the ski scene. You know, I've always thought about, like, I suggested it to one of the ski fields in Queenstown last week. Like, you guys should start a podcast and just have someone ride the lift all day and just do five minute interviews with people like, like, you know, why do you ski? What do you get from ski? Because there's so much and we, we ran a grow good B corp ski retreat last week in Queenstown in New Zealand and bringing random B corps together who wouldn't necessarily ordinarily have connected, but through the shared love of the outdoors and skiing, which is really, really cool, and the, you know, great conversations, great connections made. Oh yeah, actually, I know that person. I can connect you to this person and like all that kind of stuff as well as just having some, you know, fairly deep philosophical chats on the chairlifts as we're going up. You know, going up and then skiing down. I, I, yeah, it's just, it's, it's sad when that lack of community is there, all that. But, and I guess some people might say skiing is quite an elitist sport in, in full stop, you know. And you know, sometimes there are financial barriers to, to skiing, possibly. Yeah, so absolutely. I think that's, it's just so cool and I think, yeah, but I think advice for any business is, you know, build community around your products and, and what you're doing because there's a massive benefit to that and there's benefits that you won't even recognize or know in terms of that social community impact of connections and. Yeah. A place for people to come and hang out and. Yeah, so it's super.

And the ability of companies to be able to be the facilitator of that. Right. It's just like if the common thread. Because think about it, the number of participants in any given sport is way more than the company selling, you know, to that particular segment. And so, you know, it's almost like, why not. It's like encourage that and it doesn't have to be like full on. Like, you know, let's throw a festival and for, you know, for in every, you know, in every state or whatever. But, you know, it's like even though we do do for our own, we do a Front Range split fest. And there are split fests throughout country that we just go to. It's, it was actually kind of an interesting phenomena because the, the term split fest itself, as far as I understood, started in Mount Baker, which is in Washington, and then other places started throwing, you know, insert split fest here. There's, there's a Silverton split fest, which a company out in, in Silverton, Colorado called Venture had a big part of too. And you know, it's, it's probably like a, it's a little bit of a slog down to get down there. And so we were kind of like, well, you know, let's do one closer to The Front Range, closer to the Denver area, you know, so called it the Front Range Split Fest. And there's a, you know, there's one of our ambassadors throws, you know, Bozeman Split Fest. There's, you know, there's all sorts of split fests all over the place. And it's, it's an area where it's like, you know, it's like you said, you know, people getting around a common thing and what, there's nothing better than like nature to kind of like ground us and just being outdoors. Right? There's that, there's always that kind of therapeutic aspect of being out there and, and, and what better way to connect with people? Oh, I, I really do feel like there's, especially in our, in our industry, what better way to, to have a meeting, you know, than, you know, to have a, a meeting on the lift and really share an experience with somebody. Right, because, because.

Why not? Yeah, because for me it's like, you know, where we ski here in, primarily in, well, in Mount Hut in Christchurch. Like with, when there's, when it's Bluebird, you have uninterrupted views to the horizon because basically you're on the edge of the Southern Alps. And so you, you can, you can see the sea, you can see the Canterbury, like this massive flat area called the Canterbury Plain just going out in front of you, you know, so just getting into this beautiful blue sky, crisp air, you know, you can see for hundreds of miles. You know, it just, it's good for the soul, it's good for the brain. And, and like I say, you know, typically there's a group of us, or at least two of us who are driving out there. And so you've got 90 minutes to get to the ski field where you're having some deeper conversations about life and, you know, who knows what. And then you've got all day to kind of rumor and shout out to my good mate Deepmar, who I mainly ski with. You know, we'll normally have a topic of conversation on the way out and then, you know, during the day you're kind of going, I remember earlier on you mentioned so and so and so, yeah, during the lifts you, you'll pick up different threads of conversations and then you'll, you know, I mean, I'm. There's a. He's a famous sort of marketer, he works for Ogilvy, a big marketing company called Rory Sutherland. And I think the Welsh gene in me is quite strong. So I'm half Welsh. But, you know, typically the Welsh will Talk to anyone to have just, just to make a comment. Like, I'll talk to the people in the supermarket, at the checkout, anyone on the chairlift. I'm like, hey, how's it going? How's your day? You know, what skis have you got? Do you like them? Just, just to have a chat and just to have that connection. I don't think it's really important. Apologies to anyone I annoy on the chairlift talking to you. But it's the same with like I've got my Augment skis which aren't a B corp, but I feel like I will send them an email and say, hey, I'd like you to be. I might know a guy who could help you for a free pair of skis. But you know.

A couple of the last couple times I've been skiing and I've seen someone with the same brand of skis. Let's go. Hey, how's it going? Because there's only one guy who sells them in New Zealand. So shout out to Jace. Well, he's the, he's the importer. It's like, oh, so where did you get, you know, when did Jace convince you to buy your skis? It's like. And so when I was in Queensland last week, I ended up doing four or five runs with this guy that I've just, you know, just seen him walking onto the pace and he's got, he's got the same skis as me. It's like, well, you're obviously a good, you're obviously a good bloke because you've got the same skis as me.

Instant connection, right?

100% connection.

You know that when you mentioned that, that view, it just reminded me of, you know, really the what, what a lot of this nature is, you know, for me personally, it's like my church, right? Like I'm not. That's. That's where I find my connection. That's where I find my purpose. That's where I feel small. That's where I go to, to get away from it, right. And that, to be totally honest, it doesn't discriminate, right. Like anybody can benefit from it. I think it's a pretty well documented thing like that, that being in nature is, is good for your mental health.

100%. And for me as well, just the state of. There's kind of like two types of flow. You know, the state of flow that you can have. So one, one of them is work based. So for me, like doing these podcasts or running workshops like that's my kind of state of flow because I, I, you know, conceivably, like I say, Welsh gene is strong. I could end up, we could end up talking for like three hours and I'd be pretty happy with that. And you'll be like, no, I really need to go and get my workout and see my, my newborn daughter. But the other type of flow is when you're doing an activity, like typically a sports based activity where you, you have to focus so intently. And skiing is, is really great for that because you can always be a better skier. You know, there's always something that you could, you can improve and practice. And so even just the fact of having to go down the mountain at a decent pace and look out for obstacles, look out for other people, you're just concentrating on the next turn, doing that for a day. Like, I just come back from a day skiing. And yeah, you're tired because it's been a big day, but that clarity that you've had during the day and just not having to think about all the, you know, all the crap of work and family and all the rest of it, it's like, yeah, I, I mean, I really struggle. I don't understand people who don't like skiing. It's like, I don't like, you just haven't, like, seriously just come and do it. It's like, it's so good. My wife amongst them, she's like, oh, it's too cold. It's like. But it's not cold. Once you get going, you know, you're normally taking layers off.

Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of inertia to overcome, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So it sounds like you've kind of always been fairly purpose driven then in terms of like your upbringing and this connection to, you know, obviously, you know, the stuff that you're doing at uni focused around green business. So. Yeah. Was, were you, were you. I mean, is your, was yours the type of family that you were, you know, doing volunteering stuff as a kid and, you know, helping out in your local community as well? Or, or was it more just that, that schooling and, and then university kind of like, hey, this is just how you should do business? That, that got you into it?

Oh, you know, that's kind of a good question.

You know, so I think my, I, I don't, I'm trying to think of when I actually came across this, you know, but it, it's almost like.

There'S a, there's the whole concept of voting with your dollars. Right. And you know, I I almost want to say it was more of a university thing where I really kind of got, you know, I started reading about like there was a book called like Natural Capitalism. There was really got started reading a lot about like social responsibility stuff. And it really, you know, I really like prescribed to that concept that like, you know, in a sense, like, okay, like an actual, you know, political vote for, you know, insert XYZ law or whatever, that's totally equalized, right? It doesn't matter how much money you have that your vote is going to be the exact same as, you know, billionaire, billionaire Jane or Joe Smo, right? But with, I do think with voting with your dollars, it's almost like an everyday thing, right? You get to say, what is it that I actually believe in? What is it that I actually want to support? And that's as a consumer, right? And so then when I, when I became more on the business side, you know, it really was looking at it as like, okay, on one side of the point coin, we have a very utilitarian product, right? A ski and a board. It goes fast, it rides powder, right? But then on you, you take that step one more, right now you have the brand and then what is that brand trying to portray? What is that? You know, and I've, I've long believed too that as a company we have a microphone essentially. If you have a quality product on the utilitarian side and people want to, to utilize your product, the next level is kind of what is the, what is being communicated to them? What does that, that brand represent? What does wearing that brand mean to them, right? And I think that at that point they become a life of its own. And I think as businesses, you can't avoid this at all. Like if, if. Because like, unless you're just going to be like, I make, you know, soda, and that's it, like, guess what? Somebody else is going to come along and be like, I make soda too. And mine probably tastes different. Some people maybe like it better, right? But it's like, how do you become that something that, that people want to just say, no, I don't just drink soda. I drink a, you know, you know, this soda, right? And you know, maybe that's a bad example because I'm like, I don't know, I got this at freaking Costco. Like it was cheap, right? So maybe that was a bad example. But anyways, like, I think, like when I think of like companies that really are able to be the leaders in their space, like their brands mean something that when you see that Brand. It means you mentioned, you know, the ski there. You know, you're just like, okay, there's a, there's a. There's a very few number of people that are rocking those skis. Right? And you know, you know that if you have these skis that you're part of this, like, group that knows. Right? And there's a little bit of, like, a wink nudge whenever you see that. Right? And so, like, and I think that it's very important for brands to identify exactly what that is. And, and I don't mean it from like a. Hmm. What's the most trendy thing? What are people wanting to follow? It's like, no, like, what is it that's at the core of your business that, that you want to portray? And that's why I thought it was so important that these were causes that were important. Not just to me. It's not like me being like, oh, this is, like, what Leo thinks is important. But this is what I saw as this is going to help benefit, like, the community.

Right.

And that's why Weston, for us, like, is not just about, like, a handful of, like, people doing awesome things. It's essentially saying, this is the entire community. We want to support the entire community. And what is it within those. That community that's going to help elevate the community? And so for us, like, it's kind of this, this backwards approach, if you will, of like, starting with. With what are the needs of our backcountry community, Right. In terms of, like, okay, we lack opportunity for, you know, for that community building. Are there enough event spaces? You know, it's not as easy to. It's not like pickup game at basketball where you just. I mean, even though it could be, you can just show up at a trailhead and be like, hey, can I tour with you? Or whatever. But that takes a lot to even get to that point, right. In terms of making that path to education, making that path to getting gear, so on and so forth, just making, eliminating and smoothing out that trajectory for people to get into this sport. It's such a new sport, to be totally honest. Like, even if you consider the backcountry skiing side of it, you know, touring and backcountry, you know, and split boarding, ski touring, split boarding. You know, they're number two, number five in terms of fastest growing sports, you know, number one is pickleball. Of course. You know.

Who to guess.

Yeah, that's. That was a bolter from nowhere.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's. It's kind of it's, it's kind of an interesting thing. And, and when, like I said, when you have a brand and you are looking at this, the world as like, okay, when people consume, they are essentially voting for what they want to see. Like, you know, you have a responsibility to, to provide that for them. And it's worked out for us as, as a business model in terms of saying, you know what, being that values driven, being that driven, that's bigger than just the products that you make and sell. It. It works. And you know, and yeah, it really works, but I think it, it has to come from a, a place of authenticity. You know, it can't just be like, oh, you know, the backcountry is a, you know, I can make money in backcountry. Like, I'm going to get into the backcountry space and, you know, throw a lot of money at doing events and.

Then it's a market opportunity that I can.

Yeah, exactly. And so if, maybe if it starts like that, but if, if it's not authentic, it's kind of like, I think people can see through it. Right?

100. 100. I've had a few. I mean, you amongst them. I've had some really awesome guests recently, but a couple that stand out, lady Helen from Oku. So they, so, you know, the international listeners, you know, the Mori people of New Zealand, you know, she's connected, she's Maori. She's connected to creating like these tinctures and tonics and drinks based on this, two sort of native plants in New Zealand. One's called manuka and one's called Tanuka. And so she makes these drinks and tonics and tinctures out of this product. And just she's, you know, not only connecting back to some, you know, I guess, like indigenous medical principles, but she's also doing regenerative native planting to be able to grow the products, to put in her products. And just like, you know, you cut that company in half and it bleeds purpose all the way through. And, you know, yours is the same. Like, I think the fact that you built, you know, you kind of bought the company, but built it around the problems that you had around trying to do something and be involved in the community. It's almost like the, I mean, it's partly like, do you remember the old Remington adverts? Who's got, you know, the guys. I like the company so much, I bought it. It's kind of like, you know, the problem was so big, I just thought I'd create the company and build the community around it, solve the problem that I had. And I think a lot, A lot of the really cool B Corps that have that depth of authenticity, you know, have that you. You can just, you know, you kind of knock on the side and it's not hollow. It go, you know, it's solid. It's like it goes all the way through. And this is at the core of what we do. And that drives our decision making. And that means we're a better company, you know, creating better products, creating better outcomes. People support us more. So it's. Yeah, you can, you can 100 sense that rather than. There are certainly some B corks out there in the world. I won't name any because I probably can't think of it off my head. But there are certainly some out there that you kind of go, you know, a small change in direction in the market or a change of CEO, and you're probably not going to recertify because you've done this mainly for marketing reasons rather than we're genuinely authentically building something here that's bigger than just trying to sell as many units as we can. And I think people can smell that. And I think that's why, you know, partly one of the reasons why B Corps are doing, you know, typically are outperforming their non B Corps peers or competitors. So.

Yeah. Yeah.

So how did you. Well, I guess, yeah. Anything else you want to talk about in terms of getting into the business? So, I guess, I mean. Well, yeah. So was Western as a company, was it doing stuff sustainably when you took over the company or when you got involved in the company? Or was that something that you've put your stamp on or a bit of both.

Because, I mean, I've spoken to Matt from Wonder Alpine on the podcast, and, you know, I guess when you. I mean, I've bought two sets of skis in my entire life, so my, my vocals are trying to move my finger the right way. They're like 20 years old. And my augments I got last season, you don't really stop and think about the environmental impact of a set of skis or a snowboard because, yeah, it's not a very frequent purchase, but when you do kind of unpack it and you go, actually, there's quite a lot of plastic in these and there's quite a lot of petrochemicals and, you know, depending what wax you're putting on the bottom of the scale board, that might be a petrochemical product. So you kind of go, hang on, this doesn't really vibe with the idea of going down this beautiful pristine white snow and preserving the planet. So. Yeah. So did Western have, like a beating heart of, of sustainability and impact, or was that the Leo yeah. Stamp. Did you, did you bring that or did you amplify it?

You know, yes, it did, but it was in a very different way.

You know, be. And, and, and, and I'm a little bit, like, cautious when I say this, because I don't. I'm not trying to throw shade on the, The. The founder in the way that he brought it up. Okay. But he was like, you know, when, when it. In his bio, like on. When it was like on the website, it was like Jesus and powder. You know, those were his. His two. His two things. For a while he was trying to, you know, I, I think people in the States might. Might kind of understand what that means, but, you know, you know, to just hit it on the nail, it's. It's like kind of like a very conservative mindset. He was very, like, wanting to make boards in the U.S. right. Kind of that, that and, you know, the U.S. in terms of OEM.

It'S like, you know, all the OEM manufacturers, except for, like, the promo board companies that like, make, you know, for anybody and anybody are, you know, they have their own brands. And so he was never really able to secure a good oem. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of really good boards made in this states. But he went eventually went over to. To a factory called GP87 in China. And when I took over the company, I was like, to be totally honest, Barry, I was like, if you didn't do that, I wouldn't have taken over the company. And it's not to say that I'm not all about, like, local in, you know, manufacturing, like, put the politics aside. Like, let's just face it. Like, I, before Weston, I was a venture loyalist, and I was a never summer loyalist, and that's because they were Colorado companies. And you know, and. But the thing is, is, like, I, for me, I wanted to grow Weston big. And it's really difficult to do that in if your factories are not really, really committed to oem. And it was a great, you know, opportunity. But so, like, his values, if you will, were different than. Than mine, if you will. But I want to make like, something like kind of like almost perfectly clear. Like, you know, oftentimes, especially in this very divisive kind of world where people want to put things into a category, right? Like, I, you know, one of the, the things that like, you know, for. So, for us, right? Because I had experienced kind of like, you know, that, that gatekeeping aspect. This kind of like, oh, you know, the Fraternal Order of snowboarding, of backcountry riding. Like you need to get hazed and you need to freaking get your ass kicked and have half your friends die in avalanches. And just because I didn't want to prescribe to that and I was like, no, I would rather put out a handshake than point a finger and be like, you are not like this. You don't belong here. I'd rather be like, you belong here. Let me help you along your way, right? And nowadays, like, people would call that like dei, right? Diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'm just like, dude, Weston's been doing this stuff since long before it became like a political buzzword, right? Now I actually remember once Weston, somebody in our comments was like, oh, Weston, like they're hella woke. This is before woke became like a bad word. And I was like, like woke. It's like, what the, what's this mean? I was like, I don't even understand like what woke means. And like, and I had to like look it up. I literally googled woke. Because I was like, is that, Did I, did we just get. Is that a bad review? Yes.

Good or bad?

Yeah, yeah. And so I was kind of like, huh, it's kind of interesting. But now like, you know, with. When I think about like social responsibility, when I think about like green energy and stuff like that. Well, you know, my, the industries that I kind of came from, if there was always this kind of like political aspect of it, it was like, oh, okay, like, you know this. If you're green, that means you're some fucking, you know, you're some patchouli smelling hippie that like, you know, wants to save the planet, right? And it's like. And if you're, you know, for oil, you're this like businessman that like, you know, like, I'm going to tear apart.

The earth and it's more money.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, get to that interesting point right there. But like, you know, when I got into the industry, it was neither, right? It was just people who wanted to make energy right? And it was kind of like, okay, there is this nice kind of like sustainable aspect about it, but the people that have been in renewable energies long enough knowledge that at the end of the day, that output is the exact same output as burning coal as per.

It's.

It's energy that's all that's the utilitarian piece. The brand just happened to be, you know, renewable energy. But at the end of the day, it was the utilitarian piece, which I found extremely, extremely interesting because it got manipulated to like, all sorts of different things. And when people got almost too into this idea of like, hey, like, we're trying to like, you know, save the world, it's like, don't forget you still are selling energy. Like, you know, and it was, it was very important that like, you kind of don't forget that. But anyways, back to this kind of like, you know, politicization of, you know, something that probably shouldn't be politicized. Like B Corp is actually a perfect example, I think, of something that should, should be completely bipartisan. It should not be looked at as the badge of a woke company that's trying to do like, you know, socially responsible things and promote dei. Like, don't get me wrong, like, okay. And I, I think that there's a lot of problems when people start to take it too far. Okay? And so, like, you know, I'm just gonna kind of leave it at that. Like, there's, there's, you know, the, there's. The pendulum is swinging in all sorts of different directions when it comes to these DEI initiatives that, like, to be totally honest, as a, as a person, I know I might not necessarily agree with. Okay. But when it comes to just like, you know, what do I hold, like, in terms of the backcountry community? It's not like, I hope you, you know, vote this way. And you know, you, you must allow like all of these, like, hyper liberal causes. No, when it comes to backcountry writing, all I'm saying is don't be a dick, all right? And realize that you can do good and do more good than you do harm. Like, give back, like, to what gives you. Right. That's something that I just kind of like, that's not a political message, right? For, you know, I was just, you know, it's kind of like having the freedom to be able to pursue your own happiness. That's the ultimate American ideal. That's like the core of like, you know, so like, the second you take that out, that's what we're trying to get to pursue is just let people to enjoy the mountains in a way that has been meaningful and spiritual to us and allow for everybody to do that. And it's kind of like, okay, like when you set that all aside, like, people get it and like, and that's what been My, like, kind of biggest fears, if you will, of just being, you know, labeled as, like, pigeonholed into this particular thing. And it's like, you know what? Like, did you not know Weston's roots, you know what I'm saying? Like, came from very conservative, like, values.

And.

And, you know, but the thing is, is for those exact same purposes, I still talk to Barry. We still vibe. You know, it's like, dude, at the end of the day, it's snowboarding. The snow doesn't care which way you voted. Yeah.

You know, how you are or what ethnicity you are.

It's like, exactly that high five. Like, you know, it doesn't matter, right? One of my best, like, my best. One of my snowmobiling buddies, he's like, we are, like, politically opposite sides of the spectrum, but because we connect on the snow, because, you know, we enjoy. We. We share those high fives. We ensure we share that powder. It, like, it almost breaks down, like, all of that. That, you know, that. And. And that's what we need more of, right? We need more togetherness and. And less decisiveness. And. And, yeah, like. And. And I really hope that, like, people see. And I think we are starting to see, like, a shift in terms of, like, you know, what does it mean to be, like, a socially responsible company, Right? It's not just about this, like, oh, fuzzy like this or whatever. It's like, oh, you know, people planet, you know, profits and, you know, processes that support this or whatever. It's no. It's like, no, you're running it. You're just committed to running a better company. Like, that's really, like, the. The basis of what I can say. And. And honestly, what you, you know, you mentioned, like, oh, the CEO changes, and, like, all of a sudden they don't, like, renew, right. I'm kind of like, okay, like, then was the. Culturally, was there truly that shift? Was there cult, really, Was there really that alignment, you know, and it goes back to that kind of like the. The. You know, I'm sure you've heard the term greenwashing in the renewable industry, right? And I. I think we see it not just in renewables. You see it everywhere, right? Somebody does, you know, puts on a.

A.

On a. On a plastic sticker, you know, made with 100 wind energy. I'm like, there's something fishy about that.

You know, I mean, when I was in the medical. When I was in the medical world, a lot of the companies would get their products manufactured in China, but I think it's something There's a percentage level, you probably know there's a percentage amount of, of stuff that you can do to a product and in some cases it was just putting the product into the box which would then be, you would then be eligible to say made in Germany. So these Swiss American or Euro American global companies were manufacturing the product in China. All and similar to what you say, like all in the same factory as, as pretty much everyone else, they then get shipped to Europe. They have one small boxing plant in Switzerland and then they get to say made in Switzerland on it. And it's like, no, it's been manufactured in China, it's been boxed in Switzerland with precision. Yeah, but I think it's, I think you've touched on quite a few things there which I 100 agree with. I think.

I think there is risk of B Corp being politicized because I think a lot of people would think that it's made, it is more a left leaning concept that you know, you should do good and give back. Whereas I guess in general the more conservative right leaning is no, you look after yourself. It's down to you to do what you can do to, you know, better yourself and pull yourself up and you know, get to a better position in life. But I think I'm very much of the same opinion that you know, it does, it shouldn't matter. You know, I think B Corp can provide that middle ground of like, like you say, just don't be a dick. Like just, just be a good business that treats people with respect and dignity. And I love your, your comment of, you know, don't point the finger, reach the hand, you know, put the hand out for a handshake, don't point the finger. It's like, you know, we, we are a tribal social species who, who relies on each other. We need each other and if we work together, we will, we, you know, we will do better rather than, and doing stuff by, you know, skiing by yourself is boring, you know, so working by yourself is boring. Like work with other people, have some fun, like share, help, give back.

It's like, yeah, yeah, totally. And the thing that I feel that in renewable energies that ultimately saw the breaking down of the barrier was when the money came involved and when, when all of a sudden you put aside all of these kind of like these, these differences in terms of ideology and whatever and you just, at the end of the day it had a place, solar had a place, large scale solar, distributed solar had its, had its place, nuclear has its place, natural gas, oil, all of it has Its place. And once. And all it had to do was kind of harmonize, right? And once the people, like, kind of was like, okay, like, listen, what we're ultimately getting at here is not about, you know, not just about, like, climate change. It's not just about, you know, domestic oil and preserving production and keeping prices down, right? It was about just having a better energy supply. Right. And the second they realized that, and it was like, hey, this is better for everybody, right? This is better for, you know, the security. You get the benefits of everything. The finance people. This is financeable. This is. Everybody's able to make money off of it, you know, was. And that's where, like at. Down at the heart, like, I am a capitalist, okay? I do believe that, like, the profit incentive is what keeps, you know, businesses to improve. And I am not, I would be lying to say if, like, I came at Weston for altruistic reasons, you know, in. In. Because, you know, I'm born and raised in America. I'm an entrepreneur, you know, free.

Home of the brave. God damn it, let's go.

But you know, one of the things you, you asked before about like, my family, there was actually something that my dad would usually say. He was like, you can do good by doing well. And, and because he asked and then the reason that he was always, he said that I. Maybe it was just some psychological mind game to like, get me more into entrepreneurship and not, you know, go into the nonprofit world or something like that. But, you know, he pointed to a lot of his, kind of the people that he looked up to. He was a scientist turned entrepreneur and he would oftentimes look at the Gates foundation, he would look at the Waltons, you know, and he would look at these very successful people and measurably impact the amount of impact that the Gates foundation has had on the world versus you know, almost all non profit. Like the guy practically like wiped out polio from Africa. Was it. It was something crazy like that.

Yeah. Malaria has been the big thing. I think they've been. Yeah, I can't remember exactly.

Yeah, yeah, it was something crazy like that. And so it was like, you know, that was kind of something that I found that, you know, kind of ties a lot of it together, even when it came to the renewables, because, like, you know, at, even at, at the, at the, at the solar company I was with, you know, we had to, you know, bring on investors. They were very, you know, they had one track, you know, how am I going to make a return on my investment here? You know, we did bring on even an oil and gas company. They were one of our, our, our best investors that help us to work out all of the technology, so on and so forth. And it was like, you know, when we, you know, set aside these kind of like differences, like we're all at the end of the day, like when it comes to snowboarding and skiing, we're all out there to enjoy the same thing. And so it's kind of like, you know, and I think that in, in every different space, like a similar story can be kind of said. And it just, you know, and I hope that, that people will more so look at B Corp as just like, hey, this is the, just the right way to do business. This isn't just a, you know, it's like, don't just, you know, it's like, don't forget about all of these other factors that we really, really should be considering, right? Supply chain. When you know, our HR policies, you know, how are we building businesses that truly, truly take into account all of our stakeholders and every finger of our operation, you know, in terms of, of all the different, you know, how we're, we're spread out and it's kind of like, you know, you know. Two, Like, I think a good analogy too is the manufacturing piece, right? Because like you can no, really not say that anything is made in blank anymore unless you're a fully of service company and a 100% service company. Like no equipment, nothing.

Right?

100% service. Like can you say I am a fully, fully, you know, insert country made in the usa, right. Everything else is a total farce. It is a, it is the, it is the green wash. It's the, you know, it's the nationalist wash to make people feel all bright and rosy that like, oh, like I'm supporting like American jobs or whatever, right? Because like you just lift up, you peel back that onion, one thin layer and it's just like, oh, you know, or that material, you know, most of the stuff like, oh, this was made. All of this cotton came from, you know, Vietnam. Oh, so it was, you know, designed in America. Oh well, you know, the person that designed it actually Indian, you know, on, on a J2, you know, on a, on a, you know, on like an immigrant visa, you know, and it's just like, okay, like, you know, the, it doesn't take very long to realize we're already committed to like being a global company and that anything else is just like I said, it's just marketing. Right. And with B Corp, you're looking at Every operation of your company. You know, it's not just something I, I've told people this. When people ask like, oh, what it, you know, what is B Corp? I'm like, okay, it's not like, here's a sir, you know, here's some money for a self certified thing. And you know, I get to tag the sticker on that says we're doing good. So I was like, no, it's a full on like rectal exam. Like, they're gonna look everything, they're gonna look at places that you did not feel comfortable sharing.

And I was like, and, and you know, it. Every, everything comes out and it's just like. But the thing is, is when you look at every single piece, you're thinking about everything that, that I might not have even thought about, right? Me even coming into this, like, feeling like, hey, I have some sense of like, social responsibility. Learn so much about like, huh, you're right. Have I. Do I have a process for, you know, auditing my suppliers? Do I have a process for, you know, evaluating whether or not like my compensation is, is, you know, on, on. Is, you know, on, on averages or whatever? It's like it. At the end of the day, these are things that I think every company should be doing right? So, and, and if, if at the end of the day, why not make yourself accountable for it? And you know, if you can, if you can commit yourself to just doing the right things thing, then, you know, in all. And, and that goes back to like that you. There's no reason that you can't do well. And so it's like if B Corp, if people see B Corp and see it as like, here's a company that's committed to doing well, it's almost like that all the negative things that when people think of the big corporations and this, this and this and oh, well, they screw over the little people and they just take advantage of all this stuff, right? It's kind of like, all right, look like, you know, push that hype, push all that, you know, rhetoric aside and like, you know, I, I'm firmly believe that like more companies should be. And they're probably doing more of the stuff than, than. And because I'm, I am one to believe, and maybe I'm naive to think this, that people are inherently good and businesses as an extension, as just a group of people, that means that businesses are inherently good, right? And it's just, you know, ethics and bad decisions that bring businesses down.

Right?

And so it's kind of like, yeah, that's Kind of where I. And it just, it just holds you accountable. Right? Just like. And everybody doesn't hurt to be held accountable, in my opinion.

No, I mean, I totally agree. I think.

Because we, we had a bit of a zoom call a couple of months ago when we were scheduling this zoom call. Remember, we were talking about, you know, impact and doing good, and I think that it, I just keep coming back to, like, doing good is not always black and white. There is a bunch of gray in the middle. Like, like you saw. Sure, yes, there might be some benefits to supporting local manufacturing, but then actually, if the manufacturing is not that great and it's actually not being manufactured locally, then, you know, actually what is the impact you're making? And I'm a firm believer in that, you know, do good by doing well. But, but I think where, where I would challenge some of those bigger foundations and maybe like, the Waltons would be like, well, could. Could you. Could they have done more on the journey to share the wealth on the journey? I mean, I don't know enough about the Waltons per se, but, you know, you look at Microsoft and kind of go, you know, he walked away with like, multi, multi billions that did. Was, was everyone paid well at Microsoft? Like, were the cleaners all paid well in their buildings? You know, what was their supply chain like? You know, I mean, we all know what the Apple supply chain's like. It's. It's not great. You know, we see people jumping off the, you know, so clearly you kind of go as a company. Okay, then I would imagine Apple is paying some sort of charitable donations at some point, but for me, it's like, do good by doing well, but, but do good like across the board. So, you know, not just you do the good, but. But have the business do the good on the journey so that you're kind of the giving is happening while you're doing it, rather than kind of get to the end and go, oh, well, I ran a really good business. Now I've got a ton of money. I'm now just going to try and give it away. I mean, Tony, if you're listening, Tony Glover from Kinloch Wilderness Retreat, shout out to you. You know, I keep coming back to my medieval history degree and, you know, back in the day, the king or the lord or the barons, they would be complete assholes for all of their life. And then just before they died, they'd go on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, they'd go on crusade, and then they'd come back and go, well, I'VE done my good deed, so all my sins are now absolved. And it kind of feels like sometimes that's how big business does operate. It's like, well, yeah, we've not been the best corporate citizen. We didn't really pay anyone a living wage or even a minimum wage. But, hey, we've made a big, big donation to charity. So, you know, you can't really hate on us completely. So I think, yeah, doing the good on the journey, which, you know, clearly what, what, what you're doing. And I think the other thing that you sort of touched on was, yeah, you know, I've had one, one client who I was taking through the bcock journey and we got to some of the questions around diversity and he literally said, this shit's too woke. I, I think I'm done with B Corp. We're stopping here. I don't want to go any further.

And I think.

Again, what you sort of touched on it. Like some companies that make a stand or a stance on some things, it's like you, you may be getting, you know, out in front of your skis here, pun intended. For me, it's about make the impact with your business that's relevant to the business and the industry that you're in. So for you, community building, getting more people into backcountry skiing, like, yeah, take a stance on that. But I think it's when companies start taking a stance on. I don't know, I don't, I won't name anything too. I don't know, like, you could pick some social justice topic and go, you know, western back country is now just going to donate somebody to this cause that's actually not really related to skiing or backcountry or the outdoors. But Leo and the team are just, like, personally passionate about it. But it's, but, but we, we don't affect any change on that as a company. And I think that's, again, where it kind of gets murky and people disconnect from that and that's when it does get politicized. Whereas actually just trying to solve a problem through the business that's relevant to the business with purpose, meaning doing it in a way that's considerate of people planet, your stakeholders, your supply chain. Like, that's, that's not too much to ask for. And. But again, the businesses, like, you're doing.

It, you can see it, you want to hit, hit on one of the. Honestly, like, you know, one of the hottest topics of the time is like, you know, you know, lgbtq.

Yeah.

You Know, and. And something. We're, you know, we're launching a. A mission series, you know, to promote, you know, LGBTQ participation in nature because of mental health. It's like they're. The stats behind mental health within that community is extremely, extremely dismal. Right? And it's kind of like, okay, like, you know, our own experience with it. We actually had somebody. We were working very closely with, somebody that came out as trans and just really had the community just shunned, Just completely shunned. You know, the whole, like, you know, trans athletes, like, oh, the whole, like you're trying to turn a tomboy into a boy. Like, all these different things, like, just kind of came out. There's just all. All, all nastiness, right? And it's. It's all this kind of, like, to me, it's kind of like the. The noise, you know, that's like the MAGA noise, the. Made in America. The. At the. At the core of the issue, it's just here is a group that has historically, you know, had, you know, mental health issues. Nature can help get them out in nature, get them to feel safe in a space. Like, what the hell is wrong with that? You know, we're not trying to, like, be like, you know, take a stance on whatever the heck was going on in the Olympics about the boxing, and it's like. It's like, no, we're not trying. We're just trying to create the change in this. In this very specific space that we are operating in. I know. You know, I know we're gonna get a lot of heat for it. I know. You know, I know the second that. That it drops, but I'm kind of like, you know what? You don't get it then, you know, it's just like, what we know what we're trying to do. It's. You know, people could say the same thing about. About our scholarships. And every time we launched a scholarship to get more women involved in guiding, for example, you know, we'd get some dude that writes us and he's like, why don't I get a scholarship? Just like, okay, because you're not an underrepresented group. Like, did you not. Did you miss this part of, like, you know, and we're just kind of like, sorry, you know, not sorry. You know, it's kind of like we're going to continue to do what we feel was, like, what we wanted to see. And, like, you know, I'm not going to try to sit there and be like, well, did you know that, like, you know, one in four backcountry writers as women, whereas, like, you know, it's a 50, 50 split when it comes to resort, right? It's like, I don't got time for this. You know, like, if you came at us at. At a point of like, you know, entitlement that I deserve that scholarship because I'm a dude and that woman, I'm like, no, no need. You know, I don't. I don't need to. You. You've made up your mind. Like, I'm not going to convince this person's mind otherwise. Otherwise, Right. And so it's kind of like, you know, at the end of the day, like, you know, like, we're, like I said, we're at the end of the day, we're all out there just trying to have fun in the snow, right? And. And that is the universal piece. And if we can start to remember we're all trying to make a better life for ourselves, we're all trying to make a better life for our family. If we can remember that every person in this world has that similar mindset, then we've already assumed that we all have. Have more in common than we have differently. It's just, why do we focus on the differences? You know, and that's why I'm kind of like, you know, what. So what if we create like a, you know, create a board that gives back to, you know, helping this group of people that, you know, like I said, historically don't feel represented in the outdoor space. It just. Just so we can give them. So we can try to just hold out that hand instead of pointing that finger.

Finger.

Like, if you, if they don't get that, then they're probably the ones that are pointing the finger, you know, and so I'm kind of just like, okay, like, you know, I'm not, I'm. For me, I'm not trying to bring politics into snowboarding. You know, I'm just trying to do the next right thing. So, you know, that's. That's the way I kind of look at it. It's like. And invariably, though, like, I'm not naive to the fact that, you know, just as you are not naive due to the fact that B Corp has this kind of inclination of, you know, left leaning. I. I'm very aware that, like, by trying to be a welcoming, you know, by trying to not be a dick, like, and I am inherently trying to promote more inclusion, that thus we get labeled. And I just encourage people to say, you know what? Like.

Like, yeah, labels I guess are in some ways half the short problem, aren't they? Because it's like just, you know, it just comes back to don't. I think, yeah, the overarching themes are like, don't be a dick. And yeah, you know, put the hand out for a handshake. Don't point the finger. It's like if everyone just kind of lived by those principles, we'd be in a pretty good place. So maybe, maybe it's Leo for president. Maybe it could be a last minute run for presidential candidate. We won't get to that debate because that will just be.

Although I'm sure the same, I'm sure the same dude that wrote me the nasty gram about the, the, you know, the, the women's scholarship, you know, will have something to say.

Oh, that.

I don't like that terminology, Dick. Like you're implying that.

Are mean and.

Humans. Eh, if we're an interesting bunch, I do sometimes wonder how we've actually survived this long on the planet without just killing each other. I mean, some days it's actually amazing that we're. There's actually population is actually still growing. So just, just conscious of time. So how did you discover B Corp? Like, what was, what was the. Do you remember the moment when you were like, was it, you know, I mean, was it one moment, did you see another brand or had you just. Was it simmering away in the background and then one day you're like, hey, I think we should be a B corp.

I'm trying to think of how that came up.

It was just, it was a slow process.

I think one of our sustained. Yeah, I think I remember. So, okay, it's. It was an intern that we had. He actually started as an event ambassador or. No, he was an intern first, then an event ambassador, then he worked for us in, you know, doing events and you know, then started doing production for us. And then he has since become a B corp consultant for a major, you know, consulting firm. And so he was the one that really championed the whole thing. And you know, admittedly when I first looked at it, I was like, whoa, this is daunting. I was like, you know, I did the whole checklist thing. I think I got through maybe three sections and was. And just felt like we weren't ready, you know, and, and you know, and this was actually when he was still an intern or an event ambassador. He wasn't working for us. And then when he got on, he was like, hey guys, like really just try it out. And just. He was like, I think the point of it is not to like, be like, you're missing this, you're missing that, you're missing this, you're missing that. It's more just like, you know, set the baseline of where you're at. And so if anybody is out there listening, considering it, you know, don't get daunted by, by that initial, you know, that initial survey. It's just like, look, the, the point of it is to make improvements. The point of it, part of the process is understanding, like, how much of your organization truly has impact on things that are possibly, you know, beyond, you know, bigger than, than the organization, bigger than this yourself. And yeah, it was originally daunting. And then, you know, with a little bit of, of, of kind of nudging along and saying, hey, let me take this project on. I'll, I'll run with that. I don't think it's going to be super difficult, you know. And then once we were, once we dipped our feet in the, in the, you know, dipped our feet in the water, we were kind of just all in. And the more we learned about it and, you know, after people explained to us like, hey, this isn't about getting perfect scores, it's about making improvements, you know, then, then we were pretty much, we're, we're in, we're like, you know what? And, you know, I think maybe a part of it too is just, you know, at the time, you know, family stuff was, was kind of on our minds in terms of, like. And then, you know, once we start thinking about that, it is about, like, legacy. It was about like, I, I, you know, I would hate for this, you know, if something were to happen to me, you know, or, you know, if it passes on and, you know, it just goes into somebody who has maybe a different thought, you know, I'd rather in ingrain it into the DNA. And it can't just be a sticker that somebody peels off and says, no, no, I don't want to do that, you know, and, and I think, like, really like it. You, you know, unless it was like, stripped down to its bones, you couldn't, you couldn't take it out of it. And that goes back to the authenticity piece. That goes back to that integrity piece. It just like, look, if at the end of the day, like, if it is just for the likes, you know, then you're, it's not necessarily something that's gonna, that's gonna do well. It's gotta be something.

It's pretty obvious. Yeah, it's 100. It's gotta be baked in. And I think you've summed up the experience. For a lot of people, it's like they're scared. I think most often the people that I end up helping with their B corp is either they've had a look at it and they go, this is just too much. I don't know where to start, which is reasonable, or I think there's quite a lot of people who maybe look at a Western or they look at like a Patagonia and they go, oh, my word. Like, there's no, we're not, we're not that good. We're not going to make the benchmark, so we're not even going to bother. So I think there's, there's an element of imposter syndrome which stops people and I think there's an element of. We've looked at it and we just don't really. Which, yeah, it just looks overwhelming when we don't understand what we're doing. And, and that's why there's people like me who can help you, who can help with the overwhelm. And actually one client, Genora, who are a skincare company based here in Christchurch where I live. You know, they, they had a go by themselves and they were initially, I think, at about 60 points and they were just like, we're just not good enough. We're not, we're not ready to be a B corp. But then I gave them some help and I think they certified at like 110 or 115 and they were shocked that they were such a good company. It's like, well, yeah, but you're doing the stuff that makes you a good company. You just hadn't, you know, you hadn't put the right answers in the right boxes and you hadn't interpreted stuff. So, yeah, it's, it's, I like to call it rigorous, but achievable. Like if you, if you're doing some good in your business, you'd probably be surprised how close you are to maybe being a B corp. I think. Yeah, some people think it's like this. Oh, like Holy Grail, like only the best of the best. It's like, yeah, I mean, there are some really good businesses, but if you want to get it done, you know, you've got the mindset and the intent that you want to do it, then you can get it done.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And any, like, big learnings or surprises from the B corp journey?

From the B corp journey?

That's a good question.

I think I, I Don't want to say it was a.

Surprise, if you will, but it was more just kind of like the. The importance of, like, documentation, if you will, in terms of kind of like, being very clear and communicative. And it's like, you know, and I think that, that that process was super, super helpful because it did require us to kind of spend a little bit of time in terms of just saying, all right, like, lay out, you know, say what you're already doing. And it's, you know, sometimes when people think of like, SOPs and like, stuff, like, they think of like, some gigantic, like, phone book with, like, process flow charts and stuff, like, it's like, no, just, you know, some bullet points and some guidelines about how this is supposed to be done, right? And like, what are some of the best practices? And, you know, it's like, it's a natural part of business that. That somebody, you know, has to learn from somebody else. The number of times I guarantee you, every entrepreneur has had this moment of like, huh, Like, I wish that was more better documented because, like, I could have now it'd be so much easier to, you know, explain to somebody else what this process is. And I think that. That there was a lot of that that was like, huh, like, okay, we're doing this already, but, you know, and, and. But we just didn't have that documentation. And just to be able to put it down and have, you know, a better employee handbook, a better, you know, supply chain, you know, procedure, like, it. It's. It just improves the business, you know, by the nth degree. And yeah, it requires us to go back to it and revise it as things kind of change and adapt to. But I think another big thing that kind of jumped out at me too was like, you know, I think people looked at. May look at B Corp as this almost like existential kind of like, you know, like you said this halo, right? That is just like, okay, like, you know, this is. This is for like, the elite that are doing things like. And I'm kind of like, you know, like, after we went through it, I kind of was like, you know what? I do understand how this can be applied at. This is not like, you don't have to have a company that is committed to, like, you know, community and education and sustainability. Like, Weston is right. You don't have to. You can a lot of organization. All you have to do is just be committed to, you know, running a better business. And I, I can't think of a single business that isn't that isn't committed to doing better, right?

Yeah. So 100. I mean that's why I literally, I call my B Corp coaching program Be Better. It's like use the B Corp framework to be a better business. And not, not just socially, environmentally, financially, metaphysically, like all round, you will just have a better business. And I think, yeah, a lot of people, the documentation pieces is the big missing piece. For a lot of people it's like, like, yeah, we do it okay. I mean again, I'll pickle. I feel like I'm picking on Genora. But they were a classic one. So we have their whole entire company go through the B Corp process with me. So normally it's like the CEO, founder and a handful of like people from across the team who represent, but they have the whole company, about 20 odd people. And we were going through the worker section and you know, it's, it was something, you know, do you offer, you know, opportunities around flexible working hours and, and you know, job sharing and parts? I think you see workers can, you know, start time, you know, on their own schedule type thing. And Monique, the CEO is like, I know we totally do that. And everyone else in the company said, do we? Since when? And she's like, oh, have I not told you that? Because like in my head I just always felt that you could come and go, you know, whatever hours you wanted as long as the work's been done. And they're like, well, no, like no one's ever told us that. And so it was just one of those classic examples where the, in the CEO's head, it was a thing. But you know, she hadn't told everyone. So actually getting it documented now in a, you know, a relatively fast growing company, it's like, well, that's probably not a bad idea. Just so that new employees know that actually I don't have to be here at 8 o' clock every morning. I can maybe come in at 10 o' clock and work a bit later or I can work from home. So yeah, there's quite often lots of little things like that that are lost in the, you know, the beginnings of the company or this or the CEO or the senior leadership. Just think that everyone knows but actually you put it down on paper and it's a thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And so what, what does being a B corp mean to you? And, and I guess what, what is it given the business? So two, two questions. What does it mean for you personally and what, what did you feel it's given the business?

I mean, my knee jerk thought to that is Just longevity. You know, it is that kind of that commitment to it. It is like it is, you know, putting it is coding it into the DNA that, that, you know, we want to commit ourselves to these, these type of practices and you know, and that, that's really what was, was the key piece. I mean, I would love to say that, that, you know, I, I mean, I don't know. It's to be determined. I mean, I think this only happened, you know, we only got it.

I mean, it's one of these things. I feel like it's, it's been forever because we've been working on it for so long, but I think we've only been awarded it since like last season or so, you know, but, you know, just kind of. Yeah, like, just. I hope that, you know, to almost bring it back to the original, like, you know, people voting with their dollars. I, I, you know, I hope that people see value in, in companies that are committed to it because like, it's, it's kind of saying that like, you know, the, the company behind this B Corp is, is, you know, we're, is not the, the, the, you know, the, the whatever, you know, freaking nasty corporation that just wants to.

I, I, I, I call them Big Evil Bastards, Inc. Because it's like, you know, like in the Road Runner cartoons, you know, sort of like Acme Inc. It's like Big Bib. Sorry, B. Big Evil Bastards, Inc. It's like we will just ab. Pillage and take your money and treat you like, like that's, that's what I imagine is.

Exactly.

Yeah. Unfortunately, like, like I said, there are companies out there that are like that, even though I like to think most companies out there are not.

Yeah.

You know, like, and I think that that's just if it helps people. You know, at the end of the day, like I said, our board, you know, is it really down? Obviously, I'm, I'm committed to say, and I do truly believe we make an awesome product. We'll stand behind it, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's a, it's a snowboard, it's a, it's a pervader of stoke. And I understand that everybody has, you know, different choices and different options and are motivated by different things. And if people are out there that, that want to, you know, that, you know, like I said, it's just, it's that not believe in the sense of like, oh, that has the same politics as me, but just believe in like, in that enjoyment and that are of, of out there Riding pow. Of the high fives of, of being out there with their buddies. You know, if people, you know, experience. If people want to support that, you know, then, and, and that's what our we're about, then I hope people, you know, vote with their dollars in terms of what they want to see more of. And then, and that's where like, I really think that it's not just about, it's not just about us. I, I think at the end of the day when you do, you know, because I'm, for lack of better words, grow good. Do you. Your T shirt. You know, when you do grow good and, and the, the impetus on grow is I think others will, will take notice. You know, and I think as other companies like try to get into it and say, hey, you know what, maybe we should be, you know, consider our supply chain more or do this with our, with our staff more and it'll create a better working environment or whatever it is right Then, then it just helps bring the bar up for everybody. And it's just like, because then, you know, it's that natural thing of competition. It's just like, all right, well, it.

Becomes the new normal. And I think that that's what I'm, you know, that's. I feel like, I mean, I've been doing this B Corp stuff for like pretty much a decade now. And you know, 10 years ago, even seven years ago, even six to five years ago, people were kind of like, I don't really know what you're talking about. Like this, this all just sounds a bit woo woo. And like, I just don't like, why, what is it? Like, why would I need to do it? Whereas now the conversation with, you know, like five years ago I was knocking on doors like, hey, I think you should be a big. Because what I see of your company, like, you're behaving like a beaker. Can we have a conversation? And some people were kind of like, yeah, no, never heard of it, not interested. Others like, get completely misread it and they weren't actually doing that much good. Whereas now, you know, most. I do quite a lot of talking and workshops. In the beginning, I'll say, you know, hands up, who's heard of B Corp. And now you're probably getting 90% of the room put their hands up. A few years ago you'd maybe have one person in the room. So now I'm, I'm even asking, okay, who buys some stuff from a B Corp? Like, who's got a B corp in their pantry? Or like, who's wearing B Corp? And maybe, I don't know, half the room keeping their hands up. And so now I go, okay, well, does anyone work for a B Corp? And so now you're getting two or three hands going, yeah, I work for one in a room. And it's like, okay, where are you from? Like, who are you? So, like, it definitely feels like it is. You know, we're still. I keep saying it, like, every episode. People are going to be sick to death of me saying this stuff. But, you know, we're still only at 8,000, almost 9,000 B Corps, which is still only about 0.01% of the global business community is currently based. We're not even at 1% threshold yet. So it is still super, super niche. But it does just feel that the general trend is that more and more business owners, more and more companies are like, actually, do you know what? Maybe we should. Are we being a dick? Because it turns out some people are being a dick in business. And I think more and more people are just going, I've mentioned it before, there's a couple of UK comedians.

Whose names escape me now, but they do this sketch where they're both dressed as, like, Nazi soldiers and they're having a conversation and one turns to the other and goes, hang on a minute, are we the baddies? Because it's like, you know, they've got the skull and crossbones on their head. It's like, oh, we're the baddies. And it's like, I think more and more businesses are having that moment of, oh, actually us pouring that toxic waste in the local river. That's not cool. Oh, we didn't. Ah, okay. We kind of get it now. So, yeah, I think that's why there's a general trend of more and more people looking at this because it, you know, it makes business sense, it makes financial sense, you know, and you get to go home and sleep at night knowing that you've done, you've grown some good and you can't put a price on that.

So you're here, you're here.

So just finishing up then, in terms of the impact that you're making.

Obviously, and just having a look on your website before joining, joining the call, like, it's really cool. Like, you log all your supply chain on your website so people can see where you're getting your stuff from. So hashtag transparency. But in terms of, yeah, the kind of, like the good that you're doing through the business, do you want to just, like, you know, because Obviously the product has got some special characteristics, but, you know, just, just give us an overview of where you're making the impact as a company, as a B corp.

Where are we making the most amount of impact? You know, it kind of comes back to the powder. It comes back to just sharing the stoke. You know, it comes back to the, the mental health piece. Like, you know, I've had my, my ups and downs, like my, my journey in life, like, with my mental health has been, been, been tumultuous and like I said, like, for the, the outdoors has been my church. It's been where I've been grounded at my highs and my lows. Right? And that's honestly where I really hope the impact is. And it's almost cliche to say it's just like, you know, we're just sharing the stoke, you know, and that's really why, that's the impact that I really hope that people have. And if I were to take that one step, you know, slightly deeper, it's this community piece that I really hope that that where we're making an impact, that the backcountry experience, if you will, is.

For the better and that we are helping to, you know, with this type of mentality of the, you know, hands, you know, let me give you a hand instead of point a finger. That type of mentality that don't be a dick mentality is what is allowing for split boarding, what is allowing for, you know, backcountry skiing to be one of the fastest growing sport, you know, two of the fastest growing sports in, you know, out there. Because, you know, it needed to be if, if this was a bunch of stodgy, you know, old dudes that just were, you know, hoarding their, their ski stash, you know, on private land or on public lands, it's like this would have gone nowhere. And I think it just, you know, when something is meant to be shared, like, nature will find its way, you know, it'll, it'll flow and, you know, it flows where energy goes and when it's something that people want and, and that is going to provide a lot of good for people, people, it will get gravitated towards it and, and, and, and I would just like to hope that we've had some, some impact on, on what we've done with that and you know, and it. That goes the same with, with every operation. I think we're lucky that, you know, we have that, that, that stoke, if you will, is our, is the bet is the key benefit of our, of our utility of our skis and bores. You know, I've. I've often joked, I was like, we don't really sell skis and pores. We sell purveyors of stoke. Like, you know, and that's how we kind of look at it, right? So that, you know, ideally I'd like to say that that's our impact and, and with the b cor that, you know, to be part of this movement where hopefully people can, you know, will seriously really look at voting with their dollars and really think about like, hey, you know, am I truly. At every point in time people look at this and say, am I, you know, is. Is my vote truly where I want to see this world for my. My children and my future or just do they align with the things that. That I want to see in this world? Then, you know, again, in. As trying to look at things a politically right, like in terms of just, just, you know, look at something for the specific value that it provides. And, and I think that when people do that, then, you know, all the labels can wash away because like I said about the mountain, like, the mountain doesn't care what label you.

You.

You came. Like, the mountain's gonna be there. And that high five, you know, doesn't. It's the same no matter what, what that other person believed, right. And. And it's the same feeling that's given to both people. So I really just hope our impact is just more high fives. Less, you know, less, less division, more high fives.

Love it.

You know, share the stashes.

I think that's super cool because what I think's really cool about that is we'll make sure there's a link to your website. Like, you know, on your website you go deep into your environmental sustainability in terms of like, the product selection. You've even got access to that there's a spreadsheet where people can see your. Your environmental metrics and, and tracking. But I think what I think is the missing piece with a lot of companies is the rational, systematic numbers based. Like, that's easy to track. You know, are we using what kind of input material are we using? What percentage of this that what's really hard to track is the impact of the high fives in the powder. And I actually think that is the more important thing, but it's immeasurable. Like, how do you measure the love that you have for your newborn daughter? You cannot. But that is the most important thing that you have in your life. Whereas you can measure how many hours sleep you've lost or how many, you know, how much meal she's eating. Like, yeah, we can measure that. But you can't measure the love that you and your wife are putting into the, the food preparation. You can't. And, and that I think is where the modern business world, it's like we've got the rational. Has been really, really baked in. It's this more. It's, it's like, you know, the skiing is your church. It's like it's this spiritual, metaphysical thing that it's. You cannot capture and you cannot measure. But actually, I think that's the most important part of business and, and humanity and life. Like, that's what separates us. And so I actually think it's really cool that that's the thing that you've, you've gone to rather, rather than like looking on your website, you got all these stats about, you know, your input materials in your supply chain. It's like that's almost like, I guess almost like that's just taken for granted that that's a good way of doing it. But it's again, it's this bigger thing that you're, that you're focused on and you know, that's the core of the business that you can't imitate.

That's. Well, I mean, that's kind of like the management piece versus the leadership piece of the how you do it and the why you do it. Right.

Yeah.

And, and it's both, both absolutely important. Right. You can't, you can't manage what you can't measure. And you know, if, if you've got no, no gas in the tank, right. No amount of nothing's going to get you there. And then we all have to have gas. We all have to kind of realize the purpose behind it. And you know, to the environmental piece. Right. Like, I, if for one, am a believer that like, you know what, like we. The best thing that I can do for the environment is give people a reason to want to protect it. And, and if people really fall in love with nature, with being out there, like, they will protect it. Whether it's from public lands perspective, whether it's from a climate change perspective, whatever it be, you know, it, it's, it'll. It'll get to people at, you know, no matter what your beliefs are, are like, you will want to preserve and protect that land. And that's ultimately what, what, you know, hopefully we, we do is make people in love, fall in love with, with riding the pound, want to protect it so, and want to see our future generations to be able to continue to do that. And. And it's like, again, it comes from all different angles in terms of preserving public land, in terms of, you know, what we're doing about climate change and so on and so forth. So. Yeah, but that could be. That's a whole. Another podcast.

I feel, I feel like we need to have a. I feel like, yeah, we should book in for booking for another one, but. Oh, yeah, so let's. Let's leave it. Let's leave it there because you need to go and do your workout and then go and catch up with your beautiful family. I need to get some lunch because I've got another meeting coming up. But, you know, I. I just, you know, I love doing this podcast because I'm getting to connect with so many awesome humans from all around the world where we, you know, I think I've got a good mate of mine, Carl Davidson. Like, his whole mantra is like, just don't be a dick. And I think that. Don't be a dick. And, you know, extend the hand for the handshake. Don't point the finger. And, you know, stoked for the power. Share the power. Like, such a cool metaphor that you've got for life. I have no doubt that your daughter is in very good hands. And, I mean, you've got to hope that she wants to be a skier or a snowboarder, which is that. That's going to be okay, but we'll leave that one because that could happen. Awkward.

Yeah. Yeah, mate. No, look, just genuinely love your work and hopefully we'll get to meet in person one day and go and find a nice piece of snow and have some cool times and give each other a real high five instead of a virtual high five. But yeah, just keep, Keep on doing what you're doing, man. It's. It's.

Thank you. You too. I appreciate you.

Hey, it's Tim here, that BCORP bloke from Grow Good. If you want more content on purpose, B Corp. How to do more good in the world as an individual or a business, then you know the drill. Hit the like and subscribe. Check out some of our other videos. They're probably floating around here somewhere. You know how it works. Thank you so much. See you next time.