The Find Your Niche Podcast

Hannah Rose is the owner and psychotherapist at Rose Wellness, and they are a counseling group in Baltimore, Maryland. She specializes in relational dysfunction and trauma and is a trained EMDR therapist and a public speaker. Hannah is a nationally certified counselor, an advanced clinical relapse prevention specialist, and a licensed clinical professional counselor and supervisor. And in her spare time, she's an adjunct professor at Goucher College. Hannah believes that therapy is important to everyone and wants to create safe spaces for her patients.

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So it's so nice to have you, Hannah. I'm really happy to be talking to you today.

Thank you so much. It's good to be here.

Can you share your journey leading up to your current role Rose Wellness.

Absolutely. So I, um, I went to college for psychology. I went to Goucher. Was always drawn to mental health, probably from being in therapy as a child, and as many of us are. And I went to graduate school at Hopkins for clinical mental health counseling. From there, I had a bunch of internships in addiction treatment, actually. And so I worked in intensive outpatient units. And then I worked at an inpatient facility up in Havre de Grace, Maryland, for about 5 years and loved it, and also experienced a lot of burnout, um, and was aware of compassion fatigue starting to creep in because it's a really intense field and there's a lot of trauma. And so I decided to do private practice part-time just to dip my toe in the waters of people who are struggling with things outside of addiction. Specifically relationships and attachment and all those fun kinds of self-esteem. A relationship with self is like my specialty. And so I started part-time in maybe June of 2019, and then by October I had a full caseload. So I quit my job and took that leap and went into private practice. And a couple years later, like I said, about a year ago, I was, I was sick of turning away people because I had a full caseload. And so I thought maybe I'll transition to a group practice and take on a clinician or two. And now a year later, it's like become this whole thing, and it's really beautiful because we have such a diverse team of clinicians with different specialties that can treat so many different kinds of people dealing with different things. And so it's been pretty, pretty awesome and a lot.

For people considering a career in mental health therapy, what advice would you give on finding their niche and making a meaningful impact on their field?

Mm. Wow. So many things. I think we can't figure out what our niche is or what we're going to be drawn to in graduate school. And maybe some people can. Oftentimes, we're most drawn to that which we've experienced ourselves. So someone who's gone through their own eating disorder recovery often wants to work with people struggling with eating disorder. Same thing with addiction, same thing with certain traumas, etc. That's not always the case, but like, it's the case a lot of the time. And so I would say be open-minded to different things. I would have never guessed that my specialty would ever be relationships because my life was a dumpster fire. And then specifically relationship with self, which was awful for a very long time. And that's like, I can speak about relationship with self and tools and techniques and things to look for, probably for an entire day straight. I would say be open, be malleable, forever learn more, because there's just always more to learn. And nothing is concrete. So like, I worked in the addiction field for, I think, almost 7 years total. And that doesn't mean that's all I could do. Deviating from addiction was scary because it was new, and I didn't know if I had anything to offer outside of addiction. And I do, and I did. And so Being open and trying new things. It's kind of why I really liked going to a liberal arts college was, you know, I took classes across all these different subjects. Otherwise, how the heck am I supposed to know what I wanna do? Like, I'm, let's see, I'm 32. Gosh. And I'm still changing what I wanna do. I was like, yes, I'm a therapist. And now I'm like, I run a practice and also maybe wanna get into more public speaking. And do musical theater. That's all I want to do. Honestly, all I want to do is musical theater. But it's like, we don't have to tie ourselves to this concrete cinder block of an identity wrapped up in our profession. This is what I do and it's a branch of who I am, but who I am is not dependent on what I do. And I think that's a big piece.

What drives your passion for your work?

Oh, There's like a fire in me. So it used to be when my like number one passion was counseling and then group counseling, which is a whole different ballgame. It was the passion is watching people open the door just a tiny bit on a different truth. So instead of like, I am awful, I'm full of shame, I'm always going to be this way and feel this way, cracking the door open on Maybe those narratives aren't so concrete, and maybe I am capable of change and growth and healing and worthy of it. And then watching that door swing open, for me, there is nothing better than that. And I think that's why I really like, like, on a more, like, audience-based level, like public speaking, because I like to feel out where the audience is and see them either resonating with what I'm saying or not resonating at all, which I can then joke about because that's okay. And watching people kind of the light bulb come on, like, oh, I don't have to view this way. And I experienced that throughout therapy in my life, that installation of hope. And I also experienced that with more public figures like Brené Brown and Glennon Doyle, and these amazing women who, like, totally shatter our preconceived notions of self. And so that all lights my fire.

How would you advise people to handle difficult workplace relationships or challenges that may impact their mental health?

Oh, so what a good question. I don't know if I can package that in a succinct way, but I will do my best. Ultimately, I think the key is turning the lens inward and saying, what is it in me that's being activated by this person or by this behavior? What is it in me? What are my emotional triggers, essentially? Because if we can identify those and deconstruct whatever's blocking us from a sense of stability or a foundation or of peace, then external triggers or stimuli can't have power over us, which is very freeing. So when I worked in an environment with a lot of other coworkers, we had a training, and it was about identifying our own, as clinicians, emotional triggers. And I realized that It's not that condescending narcissistic people make me feel a certain way. It's that I had this deep-seated insecurity, and when I felt condescended, I would get reactive and then almost play the victim and like, they make me feel this way, but no one makes me feel anything. And so that's the advice I would give to people that are in difficult work environments, which is probably everyone, is that it's okay to not get along with everyone. But also, can we empower ourselves to look inward and say, why am I bothered by this? Why am I triggered by this? And can I tap into the root of that and deconstruct it so that it no longer kind of keeps me a hostage in this prison of self?

So how do you deconstruct that? Because I think that most people can say, okay, I know what the trigger is, I know what's upsetting me, But how do you go that next step to be able to sleep at night, to not wake up and have those thoughts coming to you like, "Oh, this person really gets to me and they really know how to push my buttons." How do you identify those triggers and then turn those around?

Yeah, I hear you. It's the doing something about it that's hard. A lot of us have that self-awareness and can say, "I know exactly why this is happening." However, a really common narrative is, well, this is just how I am, or this is just how it is. And that's false. It's not just how it is. It, it can be different, but we have to put the work in. And so what is the work? Can look different for different people. I think therapy is a luxury and a privilege that many people can't afford. Um, but if one has health insurance and/or is able to afford therapy, like, go get a therapist. Because when we try to think our way into and out of our own wounds, It's like a doctor performing surgery on themselves. It's, it's not the same. Like, even therapists need therapists. And if you're in, you know, 12-step recovery circles, sponsors need sponsors. And so oftentimes we want to intellectualize our way out of a very visceral and emotional experience, and we can't. And so my number one recommendation would be, yeah, like enlisting a person outside of you to help you with those techniques, whether it's cognitive reframing, whether it's grounding and resourcing. So that we can actually activate our parasympathetic nervous system. Because when we have a strong reaction to someone, our nervous system is getting activated on a core level. It's survival, it's fight or flight. And so learning about that is one thing, but actually being able to practice grounding tools is so different for a lot of people. I think journaling, meditation, yoga, movement is huge because we hold stress and trauma on our bodies. So there's a ton of different things. But the key point, I think, is action. And often we just think about it and ruminate about it and then get frustrated with self and that breeds shame and shame keeps us stuck. And then it's like this cycle.

So what would you say to someone that is reluctant to start therapy? I know a lot of companies have a teletherapist now where you can call and get mental health assistance. But what would you say to somebody that is just, reluctant to take that step because they don't want to start diving into everything, which is totally valid.

And I think sometimes a lot of people say something along the lines of, oh, anyone can benefit from therapy. And I don't believe that's true. I think that can sometimes do more harm. However, if it's like a— if it's don't broke, don't fix it, right? Like, so if someone is content and their quality of life is good and they're not experiencing distress or day-to-day impairment, Why go to therapy and dig up all your stuff? Why, right? However, if there is a level of distress or cyclical patterns or arguments, low self-esteem, I mean, the things that many humans struggle with, my question, depending on my relation to that person, because I would never just tell someone like, you need therapy, I would, you know, why not? And I would probably ask like, so what's the fear? I used to get a lot of new clients who said, I was always really hesitant. I'm still hesitant. I don't want to do this. And I would really tune into parts work, which is Internal Family Systems, which is, well, what part of you decided to show up? What part of you is here? If it feels like all of you doesn't want to be here, what part of you is sitting in front of me right now telling me how much you don't want to be here? And again, kind of opening the door just a tiny bit to these parts of self. And so even using that kind of language, if someone is hesitant to go to therapy, again, depending on my relationship with them, I would say like, what part of you is hesitant? Because it's often a part, and that part of self may have been conditioned to not ask for help. There's a lot of, you know, gender rules, like specifically for men, that it's like asking for help, admitting weakness, the shame with all of that. And sometimes it's, well, what if I get better? The fear is not what if I don't get better? It's what if I do? What does that even look like? Because my misery is familiar. And that's really the fear.

What strategies can people use to initiate conversations with their employers about their mental health and their need for support?

I wish there was kind of a uniform, like, one size fits all here. I think it depends so much on the employer, the company, what's in the contract, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, and selective vulnerability. And so if there is a strong rapport with an employer and they are able to be authentic and lead with their heart and their head and have created a safe space, that is a safe person to go to and say, hey, this is what's really going on. Now, if your employer has provided numerous bits of evidence that they are not capable of insight or compassion for any and all reason, that's not— that would not be a safe, vulnerable, effective way to go about it. And so that's when we look at, you know, going to an HR department, looking at that short-term disability if necessary, looking at EAP, if there's any kind of benefits for therapy. So it really depends on the environment. I've had clients say it's really frustrating when people say like, oh, just ask for time off, ask for a self-care day. And it's like, okay, but if I have an abusive boss, that's not a safe place for me to go do that. Or if my HR team is like corrupt, then like that's not safe for me. And so I think tuning into that selective vulnerability and figuring out Who is safe? Where can I go? And also, what legally am I entitled to? You know, because a lot of times there are clauses in contracts legally that say you can take this amount of days, or if you need to be on short-term disability, your therapist can write a letter saying this person needs some time off. And so looking at those resources, and yeah, sometimes talking directly to a boss, and sometimes actively not talking directly to a boss depending on who they are.

Well, while we're on this topic of bosses, what would your guidance be on to someone who has a boss that they are just struggling with? And, you know, the, the boss could either be a bully or narcissistic or unhelpful, all of the above. What's your advice?

God, it's hard for me to, again, kind of give like a uniform piece of advice without knowing situationally what's going on. But the key things that come up for me are, what is it about the boss that's triggering me? What is my part? How am I feeding into this resentment? So again, this is going back to like 12-step modality, which is when I have a resentment, what— who do I resent? Why do I resent them? What is the cause of the resentment? And what's my part? And often it's hard to look at our part, especially when it feels like a very justified resentment. But resentments really eat us alive and don't affect the other person at all. And so looking at how am I contributing to this? Am I talking, gossiping? Am I gossiping with my coworkers and adding fuel to the fire? Am I complaining all of the time? Like, what am I bringing to the environment or to this dynamic that's fueling my resentment? What is my part? And then asking, where are there opportunities for boundaries, be them verbal boundaries or just physical boundaries? If you're both in the break room, is it possible to leave so that you don't have to listen to their voice, which might sound like nails on a chalkboard? And I would take it even further and say the way that we conceptualize ourselves and the world becomes our reality. So our narrative, the story we tell about ourselves to ourselves, and about the world, to the world, is our truth. And so if I'm saying, "I have a bad boss," that belief continues to be true. The reality, and this is a very humanistic approach because I don't believe that they're necessarily bad people. And believe me, I don't like a whole lot of people. However, rather than this good or bad, nice or mean, it's like, "My boss is really limited." This is really helpful with wounds that come up with parents. Instead of like, "My parent sucks," It's like, my parent is limited and loves me in the way that they can, or they did the best they could. And so it's actually, I think, Brené Brown's husband, and she's a social worker that studies shame and fear and vulnerability. Her husband said once, I choose to believe that everyone is doing the best they can with what they have, not because it might be true, but because it leads me to not harbor resentment day in and day out. That things are happening to me. Things are just happening and I react to them. And so I think with a boss, and again, this is so much easier said than done, I am incredibly privileged to not have a boss. I think it's really important to look at, am I creating any room for compassion? Even if I'm not gonna be nice to my boss's face, can I believe like, wow, if they are a bully, right? That's really sad 'cause then they probably bully the other people in their lives. That must be really lonely. I wonder what pain they're experiencing. You know, it's kind of messed up. And I would never say this to someone's face. But if someone is really awful in some ways, my thought is like, God, I wonder what happened to you to make you this way. And that's sad. And that creates room for me to feel compassion instead of anger, resentment, and like almost entitled self-pity that I'm affected by this person.

That's a great way to look at it. Because as you said, most people don't really look at it from the lens of what is my part and how can I show this person compassion. You just know that that person is making your life miserable. And as you said, it's so much easier to just say, oh my gosh, how is this affecting me? And not think about what they might be experiencing to, to make them take these actions. And that—

and I think it's important to note that acceptance of how someone is is not passivity, right? Like, me accepting someone who may be a bully or super narcissistic does not mean I'm going to then be passive to boundary violations or being treated or spoken to a certain way. Me accepting where they're at does not mean I'm just going to be passive and be a doormat. And that's difficult with bosses because of the power dynamic at times. And so I'm sure it's difficult with employees 4 bosses sometimes. You've got a really indignant employee, but you know you can't say anything because, you know, it's the world. Um, so I just think it's important to note that, like, it makes sense if you are an employee of a boss that really activates you negatively. Of course your go-to is not going to be to be like, wow, I wonder what's going on with them, because your experiences are valid and matter regarding the resentment that can be helpful. Regarding what you do about it, looking at where there's opportunity for action and where there isn't. A lot of times we experience learned helplessness in jobs where it's like, well, this is just my job and this is just how it is. And again, we get very familiar with our own misery. It can almost become like a personality trait. And that's a choice. I really subscribe to the belief that, you know, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Suffering is a choice. How we choose to react to life's stimuli, I believe, is on us. And, you know, Buddhists really subscribe to that notion that everything is inherently neutral and we bring meaning to it, even death, even sickness. And I believe that. And that really helps me sometimes to also be mindful of that narrative of like, this is happening to me. It's like, well, is it? Are they doing it to me or are they just doing it? And I'm very affected by it. And can I navigate that?

Well, thank you so much. It was great to have you.

Thanks for having me.