The Healthy Project Podcast

All right, hello everybody. Thank you for listening to the Healthy Project podcast. I am your host, Corey Dion Lewis. I have a great guest in the building today, Hannah Rose. Hannah, thank you for being on with me today. I appreciate it.

Such a pleasure to be here, Corey. Thanks for having me.

No, of course. And we've gotten the chance to connect, you know, a little bit before this. Um, but before we get started, how about we just, you know, tell everybody a little bit about yourself, what you do, and, and how you got started.

Got it. All right, well, like Corey said, my name is Hannah Rose, and I am a licensed clinical professional counselor. So I'm a master's level psychotherapist. I'm also an advanced clinical relapse prevention specialist. So I have a background in addiction counseling. I'm a nationally certified counselor, and I'm also trauma-informed. And so that is my, my official title with all the letters after my name that sometimes I forget what they mean.

All the letters. So, so how'd you get, you know, how did you— I feel like it takes a certain type of person to get into the kind of the mental health industry, that space, in any form, social work, therapy. What was your, you know, what kind of drew you to that, to the space that you're in right now?

Well, it's kind of a joke amongst people in the mental health field that many people enter the field initially because they have some things that they probably need some work on. And so the topics that are introduced in those kind of, you know, Psychology 101 classes are like, wait a minute, this is me. And that can lure us in. And so honestly, it was a lot of my own struggles and pain. It made psychology really interesting to me not to self-diagnose per se, but to, to find some meaning in the struggle. And I remember being 19 years old in college. I was already a psych major at that point. And I kind of chose it because, you know, my sister was a psych major at the same school and it just, I kind of fell into it. And at the summer camp I used to work at, I was the lacrosse specialist. And with the teenage age campers, we would never play lacrosse. We would do what I called lacrosse therapy and we'd stand in a circle and throw each other the ball and whoever side of the ball would talk about what was going on with them. And I, I mean, I didn't know it, but I was facilitating group counseling— not licensed or ethically, of course. But I think that's where I really noticed I had a passion for digging much deeper than the surface and, and getting into kind of the core of what makes people tick and also what brings them pain.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's, that's so— that is kind of the— and, and this kind of is a great segue into what I want to— some questions I want to ask you about is getting to that, to the pain. So I recently did a personality test, friend of mine. It's called the Enneagram something, or—

yeah, the Enneagram.

Yes, just recently did that. Didn't hear it, know about it, right? But what it, it made me think about your life— you had this great, you know, YouTube segment called Wellness Wednesdays, and you had a video about parts work, about different parts of self. Um, and as I took that personality test and I'm reading what it said about me and the different aspects, and it's like, wow, there are— and I didn't even think of it this way, of like, there's different parts of me that maybe are strong points of this and there's weak points of this, and um, really trying to get to the, to the center of, okay, why am I this way? What's that pain that I have? Um, can you explain a little bit more about parts work and, and why is it so important to get to the bottom of, you know, what part of you is feeling a certain way?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a newer passion of mine. I'm currently enrolled in a training for IFS, which is Internal Family Systems, and that's also known as Parts Work. Because oftentimes— I want to say always, but I'll say often in case there's one listener that's like, that's not me. It's like, okay, sure, probably, especially if you're defensive. Um, but oftentimes we have these different parts of selves that are rooted in different stages of our lives, the role we played in our families, you know, like the comedian, the peacekeeper, the scapegoat. Birth order can play a large role Well, I'm the youngest. I have two older sisters. We all fall into those very cliché birth orders without a doubt. And what I didn't know is that in my journey through therapy as the patient, it's very important for therapists to be in therapy as well, um, is that my therapist was inadvertently, uh, conducting parts work on me without me even knowing. Like, I didn't know it was a thing. And she'd ask questions like, you know, what part of you feels really triggered by that? Or what part of you wants to stay in this relationship? Tell about the part of you that is struggling to set boundaries. And so she started introducing a narrative in me that totally reframed my way of thinking. So instead of, oh, I'm bad at commitment, or I'm a people pleaser, I'm bad at boundaries, right? These narratives that are very finite and concrete. Those are some examples of my past narratives. We get to look at, yeah, part of me struggles with conflict, but part of me doesn't. And then we look into, well, where does that part of me come from? How was conflict modeled to me throughout my childhood? Did I see healthy discourse or was it all secret? Did I see parents yelling or did they seemingly always get along? And so we can also look into if a part of me is more rebellious and likes to self-sabotage or tends to self-sabotage, what age does that bring up in me? And it's like, okay, 13-year-old Hannah Rose. Well, what was going on at that time? And so by doing parts work, we can really deeply explore different parts of self with the goal not to eradicate them and kind of extricate them from our psyche, but to reconcile these parts, nurture, greet them instead of inadvertently shame ourselves, which is what we often do. Like, oh, I'm being so childish, I should stop. And then we end up treating that part of ourselves the way we were treated when we were younger, and we're inadvertently reenacting trauma. So that's a mouthful, but we get to really cultivate self-compassion and nurture. And so when a part of me is activated, instead of judging myself, shaming myself, trying to push it away, I can just notice it, which is very empowering because it also creates enough space for me to pause and choose how I want to respond to it rather than to react emotionally or irrationally. And so what that looks like today is, let's say, you know, I'm having a conversation in my relationship and feel ashamed or condescended. Today I'm able to say, I don't think this is about you, but the way that you're saying XYZ reminds me of this person or reminds me of this conversation growing up. And so that part of me feels very small right now, and I can tell that I'm activated. So can we put a pin in this? And then my partner can say, yeah, that makes sense. That's not my intention at all. That way I'm not pointing the finger and blaming him, and he's able to look at, oh, okay, I get why you're, why you're feeling this way. And so not only does it reinforce self-awareness, but it can also inform healthier communication where I get to own those emotional triggers instead of push them onto other people.

Right. Like, you, you know, they're there and being aware of that, like you said, being aware of that emotion. Helps you take care of that differently. So like, just example, if, you know, say one part of yourself doesn't like conflict, right? Like, you just, you don't like conflict. But there's another part of yourself— and, and tell me if I'm totally wrong here because I'm, I'm very ignorant on this— but there's another part of yourself that at all you have learned by how to handle conflict is through anger. You may not want conflict, but when you have it, you just get angry. Like, you don't know how to deal with it. So those two, those two parts of yourself can be kind of going back and forth or battling, especially if you don't— if you're not in therapy, or you don't know how, or you don't even know it's a thing. Like, because some people just think they're just one person, this is how I am. And not even thinking about, well, I guess I did see my parents do this. You know, they, they're not, they're not making that correlation. This is how all this is. All I know, but doesn't necessarily mean that that's how it has to go. If you know, that's how you are.

Exactly. And that's, I will invite you to reframe your narrative that you are ignorant about this because rather you have yet to learn about some of it, but you are a sponge. And then like, boom, you just hit the nail on the head. And I think, you know, there's a couple narratives. So I'm a huge component or advocate of narrative therapy. Like, the story that we create about ourselves, about others, about the world really informs how we experience life. And so if the story I've created about myself, or the story that's been created in me by others who have shamed me or told me about myself, you know, growing up, is Oh, I'm bad at this, or this is just how I am. I'm always listening for those narratives, and that's when I usually press my handy-dandy—

I was gonna bring it up—

children are listening— my BS button, depending on my rapport with the client. It's like the Staples button, like, that was easy, but yeah, it says BS.

It says other things.

It says other things, and it can create some humor, which is nice too, to bring down the level of intensity. Times, but any finite concrete narrative like, well, this is what I do. I hear that all the time. This is my pattern, Hannah. This is what I do. And I say, well, is this what you do or is this a pattern that you've had in the past? Because if I'm able to create some space in that narrative, listen to the difference in these two. I'm really bad at setting boundaries. I don't set boundaries well versus I have struggled with setting boundaries and it's something I'm working on. Or I used to really have a hard time with boundaries. Right? It creates space for us to actually grow and change. And it's like the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy. If I keep telling myself I'm bad at something, I probably won't grow in that area, which is true for me with math. And I'm unwilling to change my narrative, and that is my own stubbornness. I'm like, nope, nope, nope, nope. But in other areas, emotional areas, especially as it pertains to the relationship we have with self, if we're able to look at, yeah, part of me really struggles with this, even that narrative can create a deeper sense of self-compassion, understanding. And what the goal is, in my opinion, is to minimize shaming narratives. You know, why should I— shouldn't feel this way, I shouldn't be like this. Anytime we should on ourselves, it's, it's not healthy. It's not a good thing for us. Um, I have this great quote, it's on my computer somewhere, but I think it says, um, our feelings don't have to mesh with what they— what we think they should be. I love that. It's like, whether or not I think I should feel this way, I need to accept that I'm feeling it and work from there. And parts work really informs and educates our own journey of self-awareness. Like, yeah, of course there's a part of me that wants to scream, sing to pop punk emo music and cry, because a part of me is— has wounds from 13 years old that haven't healed yet, and that's okay. I get to— right, I get to live in that part of me in a healthy way, as opposed to get really angsty and emo and push people away, right?

I think we're getting to that, to the— I think we're getting there, to where people feel more comfortable with where they are in themselves, like, instead of pushing people away or just being able to be more comfortable with their emotions. And the question I have for you, you know, Hannah, is what do you do? Like, what are, what are some tips, some advice, someone out there that maybe be struggling with really getting to, um, the root cause of why they use should a lot, right? Or they use some of those words. What are some simple things out outside of therapy, you know, you know, outside of therapy to really get them to stop and think about, you know, um, their self-talk? You know, what are some things somebody can do?

Well, and I'm glad you said outside of therapy, because while one may assume that that's like my go-to suggestion, therapy is often a luxury, unfortunately. Yeah, especially if someone doesn't have health insurance, or absolutely, um, or a clinician doesn't accept health insurance. I mean, it's not a given, like, oh, just go to therapy. I have a great, uh, meme that's framed in my office that says It says, um, me when someone tells me don't be anxious, and it's like an old man saying, I'm cured. And it, it, that's what that reminds me of. Like if you tell someone with depression, go exercise and eat healthily, they will often just feel more shame because the depression is what's getting in the way of exercise, healthy eating. And so there's a great, I recommend everyone in the world to Google a short 3-minute video called Brené Brown on empathy. Great video. And it's such a good video. And it basically talks about how we miss our opportunities for true connection because we go into solution-focused mode. So coming back from that, when people are struggling with their own self-talk and lack of self-worth, et cetera, my main suggestion is about free stuff because who doesn't love free resources? Yeah. Get to Google again. My girl, I don't know her. I say my girl because she has shaped who I am. Brené Brown, and that's B-R-E-N-E Brown, has, you know, she has a special on Netflix. She has a couple TED Talks about vulnerability and shame. And really it's her books that absolutely changed not only my life but my trajectory career path-wise, because what I learned from her is that vulnerability is courage. A lot of our defense mechanisms are just armor, you know, it's just armor and shields blocking us from potential pain, but in doing so, we shame ourselves. We have negative self-talk. The first book I read of hers was called Daring Greatly. And really, I'm not being dramatic when I say it changed my life. It made me feel seen because that's all humans truly need. Not— I mean, we need food and water too, but at the end of the day, I believe a universal human wound is feeling unseen and unheard. Which is why I love that empathy versus sympathy video, because when we do talk about our pain, if we're met with sympathy or advice-giving, solution-focused, we don't feel seen and heard. We feel treated, which is not what we always need. So if you're listening, just Google Brené Brown. I encourage you to immerse yourself in her stuff and start writing some of this down. You know, one of the best prompts I was given was try to notice what parts of self come up throughout the week, especially during any adverse emotional experience, but in general, and just start writing them down, you know, and labeling them as such, like the perfectionist, the rebel, the sabotager, the avoidant. I mean, if labeling feels shaming, then don't do that. I like to do that just for my own. It's easy to remember. And then we can really— you can, and of course, if you can go to therapy, very helpful, but start to explore, "Hmm, I wonder where these parts come from?" And if we can abandon judgment and look at ourselves through the eyes of self-compassion, look at yourself the way you would look at a child struggling, it helps to just create the self-awareness to start to decrease shame and negative self-talk. So Brené Brown, journaling, those are two big ones.

Man, journaling has been so important to a lot of people. It's so easy. I mean, it's, it's, it's so easy and it's so hard because you still have to be honest with yourself.

Yes, I have a great— well, it's great for me, but I have a great tip regarding journaling. Some common barriers to journaling are, you know, laziness, like, oh, my hand hurts, I don't like to journal, I like to type, etc. You can always dictate. You taught me that. Use a dictate app. I'm constantly using just the dictate button on my phone to text or do anything. You can dictate in the Notes app. You can type stuff on your computer if you have one. Or if you want to write stuff down, bullet journals, total lifesaver. Because I do not love to write like, dear diary, today I had a hard day. Like, I'm just— I don't have time for that, right? I do, but I don't want to make time for that. So I will I make little like a headline, right? Like gratitude and just bullet. These are the things I'm grateful for in bullet points. I will do things I'm struggling with, bullet point. Reasons why I resent this person, bullet points. And even if you don't, uh, make like headers, you can just open up your journal and just bullet point some key points. Like feeling shitty today. Ooh, can I swear? Yeah.

Okay, great.

Wow.

I'm not gonna be on the Disney Channel anytime soon.

You're watching Disney. And, uh, you know, just, just bullet pointing some things. And I mean, it is so simple, and I found that for me it really deconstructs some of those barriers to journaling because it's not as much as a commitment. And if you're like me and sometimes have a hard time looking on past journal entries and judging yourself, bullet journals are a great way around that too because it It's not as much of like, here's my whole voice. It's let's trim the fat. These are the main points.

Right, right. You get the gist of how you were feeling that day or what was going on at that moment.

Yeah.

Instead of having to read a novel about it and then feeling a type of way, maybe. Yeah, right. Absolutely. I want to go back to the bullshit button real quick because I think it's I think it's brilliant, but some people, you know, I'm just thinking about it from my point of view, talking with somebody about their health and wellness, right? In the sense of like, you know, disease, like chronic disease management, like diabetes or something, not necessarily, you know, mental health. I can't do that anyway, you know, I'm just way out of my scope of practice, but calling somebody out, right? Or— not necessarily calling them out, but if you hear that negative self-talk and you push the button, you know, one, how do they react to that? One. Two, what is a good way of going about doing that? Now, mind you, I'm sure you have great rapport with your clients, and when you do it, they understand it's coming from a place of love. But when you don't have that rapport with somebody, you know what I mean? How can you, um, if you hear it, how can you bring that up without them freezing and not giving you anything?

Yeah, honestly, such a great question. Um, such a great question because from the outside it can also look like, wow, that's shaming. Like someone's telling you something really deep and you're like, no bullshit, which is not at all how it goes. However, right, important to talk about like times where things did not work out well. So let me tell you, I got this button off Amazon when I was working at a 28-day inpatient rehab where I worked for about, uh, 4 and a half years. And I loved addiction counseling for numerous reasons. You know, being in recovery myself, it was really wonderful to kind of pass that on, but in a more clinical setting. And also it's kind of like the one area that I know of in life job-wise where the customer is not always right. Like, it's not about, uh, placating the client. It's about saying, listen, you can't bullshit a bullshitter. You have to have really thick skin, I think, to work in addiction. Um, you have to gain their respect but be direct, but be loving and supportive. You didn't— you know, utilizing motivational interviewing, which is a facet of therapy that's really strengths-based, but also call them out on their BS. And so I would do 2 hours of group counseling every day.

Whoa.

And, you know, we incorporated the bullshit button as something that it would be sitting next to me and the group members would be able to say, oh, oh, like Hannah's gonna grab it. But again, we'd kind of introduce it as a group norm where I would actually press the button pretty, pretty rarely. Sometimes a client would stand up and walk over to my desk and press it on themselves and say, I know, yep, like, I'm, I'm just gonna be honest here. And so it's kind of a way to let it be known and decrease the shame around when we bullshit ourselves, when we bullshit others, or when we're falling into a cognitive trap that doesn't serve us. And instead of saying, oh, I shouldn't be thinking like this, we're able to kind of laugh at our humanity and be like, oh, there I go again doing that thing. Now, I will say, working at this rehab, one time in the 4 and a half years, I pressed it. And it was a younger patient, and he— really amazing that he did this— said in the moment, hey, I really, I don't, I really didn't like that. I feel, I feel like what I just said was minimized. I feel like we turned it into something funny. And it was a really great opportunity for me to not, to really just take accountability, which is scary. I learned that as a server, right, in restaurants. Instead of saying, oh, sorry, the kitchen messed it up, you know, walking to a table and saying, I totally forgot to put in your order and I'm sorry, which is so hard to do. And so I remember in group, you know, all the patients looked at me like, Hannah messed up. And I was like, you are absolutely right. It was insensitive of me in that moment. I'm genuinely sorry. And I'd like to give you the space to process this a little more. Of course, my face was like bright red because internally I was like, oh my God, I'm the worst.

Right.

And he was able to walk through it and it actually brought the group closer and it brought he and I closer. Me and him. Yeah. So now in private practice, totally different environment. I don't work with people in recovery. I mean, there's a couple of people, but mostly my demographic I work with is much more relationship stuff, self-esteem, relationship with self, kind of the quote unquote worried well population, high functioning. There's no real threat of life and death on the rig. Which has been very intentional on my part to prevent burnout. So I don't think I press it often because virtually, uh, it's also really loud, right? Um, but what I will do is I, I will just sometimes hold it up like this and they'll say, was I just doing that thing again? And I'm like, you know, sometimes we'll go into a session and I'll say, you totally don't have to do this, but I'm inviting you to try to go the whole session without saying a bad thing about yourself. And they'll be like, oh, okay, no pressure. Because what happens is we don't notice when we're being self-deprecating, let alone internally, but even externally. So sometimes— and this is usually with clients I've had for more than, you know, 6 to 8 months, like, there's— you get so close on a therapeutic level working together every week, and I'll just kind of like hold it. Now, if someone's talking about something incredibly traumatic and I can see they're having an emotional response, I would never even touch it.

Right.

Right. So it's more so when they're in a very grounded and stable place emotionally and it feels safe. And even then, like, I err on the side of not messing with the button depending on the client, depending on the rapport, depending on what the context is. I think it is such a wonderful tool. To just say, yeah, I'm gonna call you out on some bullshit. And that can be really effective.

Yeah, that's, that's great. I don't have anything like that. I know, because, you know, it's when you've, when you've worked with somebody for, you know, some, some of the patients that I see, I've seen them, you know, for either once a week or once every 2 weeks for almost a year. So It gets to the point to where, okay, you're saying the same things. I know there's more to this, you know what I mean? So like, let's just, let's just, just get to it, you know what I mean? Instead of just beating around the bush because you're nervous about how I'm going to react to it, let's just, let's just throw it out there, you know, you know what I mean? So another question I have that just came up as I was talking, when you're in a relationship, you need partner, or, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, whatever, and your significant other is dealing with a part of their self that is, is negative, right? And it's affecting your partners, a part of your partner's self. How do you, how do you deal with that? What's, what's— I don't think there's a right answer.

There's a wrong answer.

Wrong answer. But how do you deal with that when there's that— there was those conflicts there?

So again, great. You are a wonderful podcast host. Um, wow, wow, wow. So great question. I have been, since becoming a counselor and being trained and all that, I've been in two like significant relationships. Um, like long, longer term. And I'm being very, very delicate with what I'm saying. I think, okay, a couple things. A, it is important for the therapist to be in their own therapy, because if the therapist does not deal with their own stuff, they're gonna leak their therapy vibe into all their personal relationships. And the therapist will not only resent everyone in their life for having issues, but they will be resented by everyone in their life for being that therapist friend. Or partner. I feel both incredibly lucky— my therapist reminds me that it's not luck, it's action and intention— to be in a relationship where I don't feel the need to therapize my partner. And/or maybe this is a mix of both, like, I view him as very healthy emotionally, which is absolutely like a value of mine, to be with someone that has the capacity to communicate emotionally Um, sometimes I'm like, why are you so healthy? Like, I'm supposed to be the healthy one. Um, so there's that. And then the other piece I think is over years, I think it's been like 6 or 7 years of counseling, which for me is a long time. I feel like I've unlearned something that happens in early therapy years, which is putting on the therapy hat with personal stuff. Like, I just don't even go there with him. Like, and it's not intentional anymore, it's just organic. Like, I'll talk to him like a partner. And of course being a therapist is part of who I am, so I'm sure there's some like, uh, theory or whatever sprinkled in, but I know it doesn't feel that way to him. But more importantly, in my mind, it doesn't feel that way to me. Um, I think if I was with someone who needed, um, professional— more, more professional treatment, or was unwilling to address their wounds and communicate about stuff effectively, I think I would have a harder time. Um, I've been in a relationship before where it wasn't even like— my ex is like such a phenomenal, loving person, and we ended up breaking up very amicably, and there was nothing quote-unquote wrong, just like we didn't mesh organically after a few years. Like, we just had kind of grown apart, and that was hard because I was like, well, there's nothing wrong though, is it me? And trusting that gut feeling for both of us was terrifying. And I'm, I'm so proud of how we both navigated that. But I think because we were on different wavelengths, like, I wanted him to be more, uh, like, I wanted more of that emotional communication depth, like, more of the time. And he just was like, I don't want to go there all the time. And so we were both definitely dealing with our own stuff, but it was hard to come together and mesh organically with Brian, my current partner, who I've been with for— I think it'll be 3 years this year. The pandemic makes it feel like 10, right?

Oh my gosh, yeah.

He's like, he's my person. Like, I don't think I believe in soulmates, but I'm like, twin flame. First time I ever talked to him, it was a 3-hour phone call, and when I got off the phone, I texted my friend and was like, oh, Is this what it's supposed to feel like? Like, just instantly, like, you're my person. Like, whoa. And so I feel, like I said, very lucky. But also, you know, it's cool to be able to say, like, yeah, it definitely sounds like some deeper shit. Like, maybe you should talk to someone else about it. And he's like, yeah, you're right, I'm gonna call so-and-so, or I might go to therapy again, or whatever. But I do not feel the need. Plus, I know that it is not healthy relationally to be like let me tell you about parts of self and parts work. Like, if he wants to watch my YouTube videos, like, cool. But I always tell him, like, yeah, I don't need you to watch my YouTube channel. Like, you live with me. Like, you hear this stuff because this is who I am as a person. So basically, didn't totally answer your question, but A, therapist needs to be in therapy, or I do. B, if I feel like he has some, like, stuff, um, my go-to is, yeah, like, I wonder if you should talk to so-and-so about this. Or like, we're both in recovery, and so I'm like, yeah, like, maybe this would be a good thing to talk to your sponsor about, right? Like, I'm not gonna play sponsor, I'm not gonna play therapist. Like, no, I am your partner, right? Yeah. So that's cool with him, right?

That's awesome. I, I think I, I am— I'm excited that mental health is in a space right now where if you were to tell someone, hey, maybe you should talk to somebody, it's not like a diss. Like, what do you mean? Like, it's, it's not, it's not like, uh, you're saying something negative, you know? Yeah, depending on who's the one saying it. Like, you know, there's some people, there could be some people out there to be like, you need therapy, negatively.

Or like, who hurt you? That's, that's my goat. When I'm very like full of— this is why I'm not on social media, one of many reasons. I mean, I, like I said, I have a YouTube channel and LinkedIn is way too boring to scroll mindlessly for hours for me. But those are what I have. But I mean, I used to see things on Facebook, like, you know, Facebook fights, right? Especially like politically charged Facebook fights. Thank God I'm not on Facebook and haven't been for the last year. But anyway, when I'm very activated and I want to say something that's going to hurt someone, I don't know if I should even share this. I don't say it, but what I want to say is, I'm sorry for whatever happened to you when you were younger. And then it's like, that is so messed up. Like, Hannah, you can't go there as a therapist. But like, when someone's being a jerk, I would just be like, I don't know who hurt you, but I hope you heal. And like, that is not okay for me to say, but that's where I go in my head. And it's a really— honestly, it's kind of a nice way to depersonalize things. Like, if I see someone acting out a certain way, instead of, why are they doing this to me? I'm often like, that's sad. Like, I don't know what wounds they have, and I don't need to know, depending on the level of closeness, but that sucks. And I'm glad I'm not— I'm not mean like that.

That also— it also can be true though. Like, something could have happened to them. There's this Key Peele skit that, um, I've seen where he was this bully at school and he kept bullying this kid. He was like, why are you doing this to me? He's like, because I'm emotionally abused at home. And he was like, oh man, like, he was like, I don't want you bullying me, but like, that sucks.

Yeah. Oh my God, such a great skit because like, yes, to a T. I mean, right? Hurt people hurt people. And another reason why parts work is so legit, it's like, because you can have that wounded part of you that wants to latch out. You can have that bullied part of you or that abused part of you that hasn't healed. And I can't stress this enough, time does not heal all wounds, right? Time does nothing but pass, and those wounds fester and they get infected and they manifest in all of our personal relationships. And so like, often when clients are like, well, because I'll kind of dig deeper into their past stuff, and they're like, well, you know, this happened in high school, so like, I was so young, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, Bullshit. That's actually what impacted your whole entire schema or worldview about them. Like, let's talk about it.

Right. So, so true. So true. Hannah, thank you so much for being on me today. I really appreciate the conversation. Um, there's this whole thing I am going through, a thing, Hannah, like with this, all this, you know, with self and I not like a negative thing. Like, I just— I have been— I feel like within the past, I don't know, not even a month, maybe the past couple weeks, like, really having like these conversations with myself, like, what's going on? And I will say it's been so, um, it's been so great. Like, it's just been It's been wonderful in the sense that there may be times where, you know, I won't tell my wife how I'm feeling because I don't want to burden her with that or whatever, you know, because, because sometimes, you know, this, this— I'm speaking for myself, like, but I'm sure there are other people out there like this that will be hurting and won't tell anybody because they don't want anyone else to hurt, right? Or they don't want to tell anybody else. And I'll let you speak on it because I saw your face, and I've been trying, I've been trying harder, Hannah. I've been trying harder if I'm feeling a type of way. And it's like, so it's true story, it just happened yesterday, right? So I hope no one on my street listens to my podcast because you're gonna be mad, and I'm sorry. So There was a birthday party up the street. One of our neighbors turned 40. And my wife was like, we should just go say hi. And I'm like, nah, I'm good. Because I'm gonna get there, I'm gonna have to put on the show and pony like, because I'm like the, you know, Corey's the fun guy and he has jokes. He's always having conversations. And I'm like, I'm just not feeling like that today. So I'm just gonna keep my happy ass at home and I'm just gonna sit here. My kids are out playing with their friends. I'm just gonna sit and relax. I'm not going anywhere because I don't feel like smiling today. I wasn't mad, you know, I wasn't angry, I wasn't in a bad mood. I just don't want to be around a bunch of people, right? And so she was like, ah, because, you know, okay, because She didn't really want to go either, but, you know, she wanted to at least, you know, show her face and say hi, whatever. But she needed me to go so she could go. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not going. Like, I don't feel like it. I'm sorry, but I am not going because I don't have the, I don't have the energy to go and put on the show. That's what it would have been. It would have been a show because I didn't want to be there. I like all those— like, I like them all. They're all great people, great to my kids. I just didn't want to put on the show.

I have a question.

Yes.

What part of you feels like you have to put on a show when you leave the house or are around others?

Oh, good.

I mean, you don't have to answer that on your podcast, but I'm just wondering because it sounds like You know, the follow-up question, if you do want to answer that, would be what would it have been like for you, or hypothetically, what would it be like for you to go without that mask, to go without that show, and to just be like, yeah, yeah, I'm here, but like, I'm not going to entertain you all, right?

So it would have been— if I, if I would have gone, I would have put on the show because I don't want people to feel uncomfortable.

With your— not even sadness, but not funny guy Corey. If you— if that's missing, you think without that show people may not accept you and then feel weird.

Exactly. Because let's just be honest, I am 6'2", I'm 250 pounds, Black man in Iowa. I have to smile, I have to be the funny guy, because if I'm just stone-faced killer all the time, people get kind of nervous.

Okay. First of all, I hear you and whoa, I'm glad you said that. Cause that isn't even something— also like, I only know you through here. Right. And like my two interactions with you have just been the best. And I'm really glad you said that because it just, it reminds me to create that extra level of space of like, Jesus, that's not something I think about. Right. As a 5/3. White Jew. Like, people don't even know I'm Jewish. Um, so it's like I can, I can pass, right? People just assume I'm like a whatever— what is it— white Anglo-Saxon WASP, right? I look like a WASP. Um, and so there can be anti-Semites around, but they don't know that your girl's a Jew. And so it's true. And so thank you for saying that, because I would have never even thought of that, which just goes to show, like, privilege. Um, so That. And also what I also am hearing with that taken into consideration is one of two extremes: stone-faced killer versus really fun guy. Is there a gray for you?

Is there a— there is. So there's a gray. There is a gray, but in my mind, even that gray leans towards, oh, I look angry. Oh, I look like It's negative.

Wow.

Right? So either I am— I'm up for it and I'm smiling and I'm talking to everybody and cracking jokes and everybody feels comfortable, or I'm in the gray where I'm not necessarily smiling, not in a bad mood, you know what I mean? And I'm still talking to people, but it's not with the same energy. And it's like, what's wrong, Corey?

So there's an extra level of pressure. Yes. Yeah. And that's been reinforced throughout your life, and it's exhausting.

So I'm finally to the point where I'm like, you know what, I just don't want to do that. Like, I— if, if by now you don't know who I am as a person, like, that's not on me, right? I, I— and I'm— I finally got there, you know what I'm saying? I'm grown, grown. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm to the point now where it's like, hey, I don't want to— if the pandemic has been the best thing for me at work because I don't have— like, someone's walking by me, I don't have to like, hey, how you doing? Yeah, right.

You can just do that smile with your eyes thing where really I just squint. I don't even smile. I just go like this. I just go Yes. And this is my face.

Yeah, I don't gotta do that. And I'm not— what's so crazy is I'm really never in a bad mood.

Yeah, but the mask, the performance is— you said it, it's draining, it's exhausting. Because what it is is also a barrier to authenticity. And again, I'm glad you're bringing this up, the race piece, and about being Black and being perceived as angry when you're just not smiling. It's because, I mean, I'm so passionate about talking about barriers to authenticity. And I'm going to be honest, Corey, I've I've never even added that to the mix of something that can get in the way of, no, I can't just be authentic, Hannah, because I'm going to be perceived a certain way because of what I look like.

Perception.

Wow.

Yeah, perception is everything. I love that this conversation went this way just so naturally.

Same, same. And it's like, for me, again, like as a white woman, I'm like, OK, I feel some discomfort, but in a good way. And like, I want to be broaching this with you. This is one of the hardest parts for me about therapy is broaching the differences. And I noticed that feeling of like, oh God, how are they going to receive my whiteness? Or like, how are they going to receive that I'm a female or that I'm young? You know, I'm 30. And, but I live for it because this is what's real is instead of I'm colorblind, um, or like ignoring the differences and saying like, no, we're just the same. Like, no, we're not. And because of that, our life experiences are so different.

Yeah, I don't want to be the same. There's beauty in difference, you know what I mean? It's just you got to be accepting of that. You have to accept that, you know, we are not the same person. That is okay. That is how it's supposed to be, I feel. And there's beauty in that difference and understanding. That's where people— I feel like when you say— when people say things like, I don't see color or whatever, they just don't want to have the awkward conversation.

Yes.

Because it can be, you know, it can be an awkward conversation. What's gone on the past year can be an awkward conversation, but that doesn't mean that it's not necessary.

Right?

Sometimes you gotta be uncomfortable.

And I do think as humans, but then more so to make it more specific to my field as mental health providers, a willingness to sit through the discomfort, submit, to let someone truly be heard and seen is necessary. Like that is an obligation as a therapist, in my opinion. And for me to veer away from topics about race, or like sex stuff comes up all the time in relationship dynamics, obviously. I think it's unethical for a counselor to practice if they're not willing to talk about sex, if they're not willing to talk about race, if they're not willing to talk about abuse, like anything that can feel like, oh God, well, if I haven't had this experience, like, I, I think it's incredibly important to acknowledge also like the gaps in knowledge. Like, as much as I don't love to admit on a podcast, like, wow, I never would have thought about race in terms of Baris' authenticity. That's my honest truth. And I want to say it out loud so that I can then learn more.

Yeah. And then you, you, then you grow from this and people don't want to, it's not like they don't I feel like people just want to pretend that they already— they just know.

Yeah, yeah, it's the biggest— it's ego protecting, and it's honestly the epitome of the bullshit button. Because if I were to sit here and say, yep, exactly, or even worse, yeah, I totally get it, like, girl, like, in what world would I get that? Like, I can't be intimidating if I try, right? I try sometimes. To be intimidating. If I'm walking to my car alone at night and there's someone else in the parking lot, I can't be intimidating, so I carry mace. You know, like, we have different experiences, different experiences, and, and there's—

and again, there's nothing wrong with that if you're not willing to understand where the other person is coming from. Because what I appreciate about what you said about what, you know, the small little think that's small, but what I just said about my experience is that you listened and didn't necessarily say like, um, didn't say anything, or, you know, I feel you because, you know, me being a Jewish girl, this is what, you know, like, it's, it's just listening. And if you said that, that's, that's fine. I will listen to that too. And they were having that back and forth, but it's just being able to listen without having an answer, or the, oh no, not you, Cory, but you're so nice.

Oh God. Like, that makes me— I feel like a visceral reaction to that. It reminds me of, A, the meme, right? Like, oh, you shouldn't feel that way. Like, oh, thanks. You just cured decades and decades and millennia of systematic racism. Like, thanks. Or B, the Brené Brown empathy versus sympathy. If I was to sit here and try to provide you a solution, like, well, maybe you should try— like, again, in what world is that appropriate? And B, we missed the opportunity for vulnerability, which is just me being like, oh wow, God, that must be hard. Like, yeah, holy shit, I haven't thought about that, right?

And what— and why I've been so— so when I watched your It all just, it was just all kind of interesting how it all went together. I did the personality test and I learned about, I already knew I was these, how I felt, but just seeing it on paper and like, oh, that is kind of me. And then your Wellness Wednesday talking about parts of self. If I, if I wasn't going to be true with my different selves, this conversation could have never happened. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? Like Like, I would have just ended the podcast and been like, boom, you know what I mean? But having— but now that I'm able to really understand that there's a part of me that, that does this show and pony because I don't want, you know, because whatever, a long laundry list of reasons, um, if I'm not able to be honest with myself about that, Hannah Rose, like I can't grow. I can't have these necessary conversations with other people, um, regardless of skin tone or, or where they come from. It doesn't, doesn't matter, uh, it just, it would never happen. And then no, I, I can't heal and no one can grow. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So that, that self, like I said, it was— that's why when we got on, I was like, I really want to talk about this because I am literally going through this right now, and it's been It's been awesome.

Life-changing. Um, before we wrap up, because it's been great chopping it up with you, um, I wanted to rewind to the last thing I will say is when you said, you know, sometimes I don't want to tell my wife or anyone because I don't want them to feel pain from my pain, or I don't want to burden them. The space of like, I feel you, is A, normal, B, common. C, really great tip for me, is a friend of mine texted me last night and she said, hey, do you have the emotional space for me to vent to you about something right now? And if I was super burnt out and like just needed to relax and watch The Great British Baking Show, the whitest show of all time and very calming at the same time, um, because they support each other, it's so beautiful. In any case, um And I was like, yeah. And then she disclosed some really vulnerable things to me, and I was able to hold space for her. And like, because she was in pain— of course it's different with a friend than with a partner— I wasn't like, now I feel your pain. But there's a fun thing called emotional boundaries, and to have emotional boundaries in a partnership. So like, Brian can come upstairs and vent to me about work or about something that's, you know, he's struggling with. Um, and sometimes I say to him— actually, often I say to him because we're both working from home. I'll come downstairs, he'll come upstairs, and he'll be like, "But—" And I say, "Brian, I'm really hangry. I haven't eaten yet, and I've been listening to people talk about themselves for 6 hours. I need a minute." And he's like, "But—" And I'm like, "I need a minute." And he's like, "Okay." And then he waits for me to eat something, and we watch something, and then we talk. And so being able to either set boundaries or ask for that person's boundary like, listen, my intention is not to make you feel pain from this or burden you. Do you have space for me to talk about some painful shit right now? You know, and sometimes the answer is going to be no, and I respect that. I'll walk away. I'll be like, Brian, and he's like, Hannah, I'm in the middle of something. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll wait. But like, I wait, and then there's no resentment, there's no conflict. It's like to just be honest about what you can handle and also what you need from the other person. Like Hey, I really just want to vent, or I really just want you to listen if you can. I don't want advice. I don't want you to try to fix it. And it takes that burden or pressure of the other person to fix it away, which is nice too.

That is all. That's awesome. That's good. That's good.

Try it. See how it works.

Hannah Rose, again, thank you so much for being on, um, on the podcast with me today. It's been, it's been great. I think people are going to get a whole lot from it. I'm excited. I'm so excited. If anybody wants to get a hold of you and learn more about you, um, you know, listen to or watch any of your Wellness Wednesdays, where can they reach it? Where can they find you at?

Oh, let me tell you. So like I said, I don't have any social media, so don't try to stalk me. But if you go to YouTube and type in Hannah Rose LCPC, you will find my channel. Or you can go to my website, which has links to all things and it's HannahElyseRose.com, and that's H-A-N-N-A-H-E-L-I-S-E-R-O-S-E.com, and that is my, my domain.

Awesome. Again, Hannah, thank you so much for being on with me today. I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, Corey. This was the best.

This is awesome. And everyone, thank you for listening to the Healthy Project podcast. I'll holla at you next time.