207. The Never Ending Learning Curve of Elk Hunting with Jaden Bales

This whole dive into copper bullets has been fascinating for me. And you guys should check it out. Go to BarnesBullets.com and have a look at the website and check out these bullets. I'm going to tell you a little bit about what I found with them. But what they talk about is, you know, like since 1989, they've been engineering the most technologically advanced hunting bullets and ammunition on the planet. And the more I shoot these suckers, the more I tend to believe it. You know, they're manufactured here in the usa. In fact, their facility is down by my dad's ranch in central Utah. And what I've found is they really do create a little bit better penetration. They expand on impact so the blood trails are quite a bit larger and they do a little bit more damage putting that animal down a little, you know, faster. It's just a, it's a, it's a way. In fact, on their website it says produce massive wound channels even in dense, thick skinned game. And that is true. I found that to be true for sure. Check them out. And check out the episode I did with Barnes. So it's 191 with Mitch Kukson and he gets into great detail about how these bullets are designed and why they're better. Definitely worth some consideration. Go to BarnesBullets.com have a look for yourself. Make a decision, let me know what you think. See ya. Back couple months ago, I did an episode with Brandon Maddox who is the founder and owner of Silencer Central. You should listen to that episode. It's episode 197. I love this company, I love this brand and I love the American made product that Silencer Central produces. I used the banished 30 on my hunting rifle. And if you guys, if you guys follow me on Instagram, you saw that video I put together, you'll see that it's not like what Hollywood portrays it as. It's not like it silences the rifle down into nothing. But it makes a huge difference. Like my ears don't ring when I shoot. The animals don't know where the shot is coming from. It disorients the sound. And Silencer Central makes it super easy for you guys. Jump on to silencercentraljet.com and pick one out. They will. You could ship your rifle to them, they'll thread your barrel, they'll ship it back. This is like a 10 day process and the ATF process is shortened significantly. It's like down to 48 hours or less. It's the best time ever to get a silencer on your weapon and you should check it out because it really is a game changer. SilencerCentral.com is where you could find them. Or you can call 866-891-4494 and they're happy to answer questions. It's crazy. They actually have people that answer their phone. Again, guys, go to silencercentral.com it's one of my favorite sponsors out there. These guys are just absolutely world class with these world class products. And I can't recommend putting a silencer on your hunting rifle enough. Save your ears, disorient the sound in case you need another shot. I mean, it's just, it's a game changer, folks. Check it out. There exists a threat from anti hunting groups to politicians trying to give our land away and we won't stand for it. Those vast western landscapes provide the space for our wildlife to thrive and a place for hunters and anglers to fuel the fire that sparks their soul. In this show, we share our love of hunting, fishing and conservation. Here we provide the foundation to meet these threats through passion and the grit of the American outdoorsman. Welcome to the Western Huntsman podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of the Western Huntsman podcast. This is Jim Huntsman, your host, coming at you from the Broken Tine Studio right here in Northwest Montana and brought to you by Eastman's Hunting Journals. Guys, thanks for tuning in. It is Thanksgiving week. Looking forward to hearing more of the feedback out there with all you guys that have been hitting me up with whitetail season. It's been a hell of a season for a lot of people. I think that like, regionally, as, as I'm kind of looking at, it's kind of like where I am now, which is to say that the antler growth has been quite substantial this year and I'm really loving seeing all these bucks getting sent over to my email. And my when you're sliding into the old DMs there, all that kind of stuff, I love seeing that stuff. So I really appreciate it, guys. Happy Thanksgiving, by the way, because I am recording this two nights before Thanksgiving and I'm going to put it out immediately because I'm really excited about this guest. He's a return guest, a fan favorite. Somebody's been on the show. He's always got a lot of really good insight. We always have a hell of a conversation. I just really appreciate him joining me and thinking of little old me. So, Jaden Bales, welcome back, brother.

Hey, thanks for having me, man. You always put on such a good show. I enjoy chatting with you, so I appreciate you having me back.

Yeah, man, it's, it's, it's good to catch up because you got a lot, you look, you got a lot going on, man. You're always changing, you know, doing something new, dipping your toes into something. And I, the, I think I want to say the first time we talked, you were still kind of partnered up, working with Cody quite a bit and. Yeah, man. And so tell everybody what you're doing now.

Yeah, so. And we talked probably quite a bit about the Wyoming Wildlife Federation, but I officially left, I left my role there at WWF right before hunting season. Go figure. And it was good. I'm still going to do some contract work for them and we're putting on the bear banquet and all sorts of fun stuff this year and, and those are super good folks over there. But for the last few years, I've been working on consulting with folks on my own business. It's called Hunt west. And I decided to take that full time. And along the side, I'm still, I actually still work with Cody on his elk hunt podcast. And I do a bunch of writing for Eastmans these days. And coming up in 2025, I'll be picking up a bunch more of their member research sections. Guy, the legend Guy Eastman is stepping down from riding those, and they, you know, very, you know, asked me to take up that torch and gosh, it was a kind of a big, it's, it's pretty humbling if they would, you'd ask me, but because he laid down some crazy good foundation work for that member research and he has been the Wyoming guy. So I'll be still talking with Guy and making sure we don't, I don't miss anything. But, yeah, I'll, I'll be writing a bunch of the member research sections for Eastman's with Wyoming and then with Oregon, too. So, yeah, it's a big change this year. Big career move. And it's been a whirlwind also with guiding all fall. So we're figuring it out, you know, learning the, what they say, learning to fly the plane as it's in the air. So it's been good, though.

It's been a lot of that going around this year. I, I've been doing kind of a lot of the same stuff. But no, you're right, man. Those are some big shoes to fill for that, for that Wyoming. Mrs. And, you know, I can't think of anybody better for that role. You've got, you've Always, I think I was, I was picking your brain last year because I had, I had four points in Wyoming last year. And you're like, man, you know, that's kind of no man's land. And I'm like, well, now I've got five. So I thought I'm going to get Jaden on and he's going to, he's going to tell me exactly where to go now that I have a big whopping five points in Wyoming.

Exactly. Do this thing state. And it just keeps. It used to be, you know, not even six years ago it was a place people could go to regularly.

Yeah.

And now, boy, I was just crunching some numbers, man. And it takes two points to really get into the game, even just the hard or even the easy to draw tag. So it's not really an every year state for everybody unless you're looking at cow elk hunts. But gosh, once you're, once you've got those, you know, it's a great midterm state. Once you've got that 5, 6 to 10 points or 12 points like then it's, it's a pretty good state. But gosh, it really has crept outside of the every year opportunity for folks these last six, seven, eight years.

Dude, I remember when Wyoming if, if I was sitting in the position I'm in now with five points I could, I could just about pick almost any unit in the state I want. And it like was not that far or it wasn't that long ago.

Yeah.

You know, and so it changes a lot. But you, you know, tell everybody. So obviously guys, I'm with Eastman's hunting journals and Jayden is writing and working with Eastman hunting journals as well. For those of you that don't know what the Mrs. Is and Jaden, since you write an Mrs. For a state, I'll let you explain it because you'll be able to kind of hit more details than I can. But it's a great tool. Why don't you tell everybody what they could find in like an Mrs. Article?

Yeah. So the Mrs. Riders and there's like different ones for each state obviously who they, the Eastman's crew has nailed down as kind of the people who are in the know about tags for each particular state. They will break down basically what is changing year to year, what folks can expect year to year, what you can expect for different point levels and then maybe help steer you in some general regions or when I say general reasons, I'm talking about just like overall parts of the state because that's a Particular language within Wyoming to be careful about anyway. Yeah. But steer you in some directions where you can go hunting and start your research. And then, like, accompanied with the Mrs. System is the whole Tag Hub ecosystem. And that's more of, like a filtering tool. You can type in your point levels and figure out, you know, what you can draw based on last year's drawing results and that kind of thing.

Boy, it's getting time to do that in. In Tag Hub, and I haven't yet. I'm still. I'm still hunting. You know, I've done all this hunting this year. I've got, like, everybody around me and all my clients, all that kind of stuff. They've all filled their tags. I have yet to shoot anything but a turkey this year. And so this is kind of my week. And there you go. We'll see what happens.

Man, that's awesome. And that's the difficult part about guiding them I've taken, you know, because I've got my fingers in all sorts of pots. I've taken maybe a little more relaxed approach to it. And I didn't. I only took one hunter in September because I was like, september's for me, you know? Yeah. But then a guy in particular I like hunting with hit me up, was like, hey, do you want to hunt in September? Yeah, I do, but it's tough, man, when you're guiding for folks. Like, it is really fun, though, especially when you got good folks in camp and you see someone have a whole. A really good hunt, a really good time. Like, it makes it all worth it. But it just is so tough to get out for yourself when you're. When you've got the schedule filled with guys coming in, it is.

And then the other thing on top of that is like, I just. Let's see, my last day guiding this year was Thursday. And what is it? It's. It's Tuesday now.

Right.

I'm losing track of days anyway. Yeah, it's kind of like I'm like, okay, I'll finish Thursday and then I'll go. I'll go hit the woods hard. I know where I've got. I've got some elk located. I've a couple of good bowls in there. And, like, just taking a few days off has been actually pretty freaking nice. And so I'm kind of enjoying it. But that's why I'm behind schedule on podcast, though.

Totally makes sense, man. Yeah, I think it's important, like, for guys, and I know a lot of guys who get burnt out pretty quick guiding, and I Talked to a lot of folks before I really dove into this deep who don't give themselves breaks, man. And it's, it's funny, like, I gave myself four different breaks throughout from September, October, and now November to December just to not do anything hunting related. Because it was like, dude, we gotta step out of the woods and freaking take a shower every now and then to regroup and not burn out. It can be a real thing.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think if you take a few days and just act like a normal human being for a while, you serve your. You serve your hunting clients better anyway. You know, I. I just, I don't know. Because I'm all motivated when I go back, you know?

Exactly. Yeah. It's funny though. It's funny though. And I'm sure you're like this too. I'll take one day and get home and then I'll start thinking about a tag I have in my pocket and be like, you know, I can go out tomorrow morning. The laundry's not even done yet, you know. Yeah, man, it's a sickness for sure.

Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit more about that, but I'm super curious about what Hunts west is.

Yeah. So my huntless service is a consulting service for helping folks figure out their DIY hunts. People will schedule me for a session and I'll go do a bunch of research based on what they've told me. And like, I have a questionnaire for them and I'll go do a bunch of research and then we'll sit down on Zoom and hash out there, like, situation. So usually this time of year that means talking about where they should be applying for tags. And then once tag draws have come out and. Or if they want to do like spring bear hunts or whatever, then we start moving into actual sessions, planning hunts as to be like, all right, this is what I'd be looking for in your unit. And here's how I would approach it. Some folks also will pay me to do full on hunt itineraries because they're like, dude, I just don't have the time to plan this out. And I'll actually create them. Like a week long hunt I generated, like, hey, check this spot for these amount of days, you know, and then if you don't see anything there, bounce here. Yeah, it's been fun, man, because a lot of these places, like, I haven't had experience in stepping foot on the ground, but what I'm doing is more teaching people a system that they can go and implement when they get There. And it's been really helpful. I think a lot of folks want to come and learn. They don't just necessarily want to be handed like a spot on the map because as you know as well as anybody, you can be given the best honey hole, the best little drainage in a unit, and you'll show up there, you know, three days, three of the wrong days of the year, and there won't be anything in there. Yeah, you go like, well, now what? Yeah, guys gotta have backup plans and, and know what they're looking for. And so that's what I'm trying to teach people.

So let me ask you this, because that's, that's, that's super interesting. You do that. It's actually a really good idea, man. Because, you know, think about, think about the guy that lives in, I don't know, Miami. I'm just throwing a city out there. He's. He's been building points to go on this, like, lifelong dream of an elk hunt in Wyoming and doesn't necessarily want to hire an outfitter, wants to go do some DIY hunt. And, you know, that's, that's a really good idea to have a service available for somebody like that to be able to call up and be like, okay, help me out here. I mean, like, I imagine if I was that guy, I'd be willing to pay money for somebody to give me information that is not like, oh, go to this, go to this waypoint I send you, and hopefully there's an elk there. It's more of a. Like, this general area is if you know what you're looking for, you're going to find some elk in. And by the way, here's how you kind of go about finding those elk within that unit or whatever. Is that kind of the gist of it?

Yeah, exactly. And like, anybody who hunts out west for any amount of time knows, like, the animals aren't. They never perform exactly like you want them to all the time. Right. Like, they just. But once you figure out what they're doing and why, like, then you can kind of piece together the puzzle and, and maybe someone I work with, like, I've sent them into this. You know, there's. There's like this part of the unit that I'm like, hey, this is pretty. This, this is all of the pieces we're looking for. And then they'll get there, and then they'll piece something else together. Like, well, there's a hunting pressure, a ton of hunters coming in here. There's an outfitter camp down at the bottom, you can't see on the map. Then they move around that pressure and figure out where they're at because we've talked about what to do in that situation. Um, yeah, so I really appreciated. I've appreciated people working with me on it so far because the people who come to me are the ones who want to learn to fish, not just be given one, you know, for the day.

So for a guy like me that has. I, like, I know only because I'm a fly fisherman or I used to spend a ridiculous amount of time in Wyoming chasing, you know, trout. But yeah, for. For a guy like me that vaguely knows wyoming and has 5 points, how many points should I get to before I call you up and be like, okay, dude, I need to hire Hunts west to help me because I'm coming this year.

You know, that five point level is a really good place to talk about, to schedule a session about your application because you're in a place now where you can have a conversation about whether you're applying in the regular draw or the more expensive special draw. Because a special draw, man, it unlocks quite a few things for you. But whether or not that's going to be worth your money is going to be dependent on what your skill set is.

Well, what's the price difference between regular and special draw?

It's basically $700 in the regular and it's basically $2,000 in the special.

Okay. And it's. It's worth that, what, 1300 bucks?

Dep. I mean, you know, if you talk to college age Jaden, like, no, that wasn't going to be worth $1,300. Right.

You talking to a dude that's pretty long in the tooth. And 1300 bucks is doable, you know?

Yeah, if you're talking to someone like that, like, yeah, absolutely. I mean, because at some level, what, all you're trading off now is time, right? And if you're over here saying, like, I have a lot of time this year or I have the right amount of time this year to dedicate to a Wyoming general hunt, like, heck, yeah, let's. Let's talk about ways you can burn them five points. But if you're over here, like, yeah, I'm 30 years old, I got a new family and I've got a good career, like, it's going to be kind of tough to force the time. Then I'd be like, okay, well, dude, maybe sit on them points and like, wait till a better limited quota opportunity opens up at 10, 11, 12 points. Those are the conversations. Yeah, those are the conversations that you need to have.

That's the question. I think that that keeps running through my mind is I'm at five points. Does it make. I want, I don't want to, I don't want to go another five years. Right. I really don't. So does it make a big difference to burn 5 points now or wait for 6 or 7 points?

I sure wouldn't. I, I would, I would go special and try to go hunting if I was in your position.

Duly noted, man. I think that's the, the route I'm gonna go. So I might have to schedule a private session. It sounds a little bit funny, man. I don't know if I, if I trust this whole private session with Jaden Bales, but hopefully it's just remote, right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's all on zoom.

You're not going to try to pet my leg or something?

No, they haven't made that happen with, they haven't made that happen with virtual reality yet. So I think you're good.

But you don't know if I'm going to try to pet your leg, so.

That's right. That's right. That's the beauty of doing it online.

Cool, man, that's good to know. I appreciate you sharing it because this is something. I've been totally kicking it around a bunch because, you know, now that I'm a resident of Montana, I actually have the opportunity as a resident to draw some really good tags and the odds are really high for the state of Montana. But you know, the area I live in is not too shabby. And you know what's even more is I have the lifetime Idaho license. So I can drive 20 minutes up the mountain from my place and drop down into, onto the Idaho side of the mountain and that's a great unit over there and it's all over the counter here. And so yeah, you know, a guy, theoretically I could spend a week in Idaho. A week in. Or how I could spend several weeks in Montana and then a week or two in Wyoming if I draw that special tag. So. That's exciting to know.

Yeah. And the nice thing is about all three of those states that you talk about is especially Wyoming and Montana are the long season dates.

Yeah.

So like, you know, Montana, such a good late season opportunity with that frickin five week rifle season. And then if you pick up a traditional muzzleloader, which is also something I'm toying with this year in 2025 anyway, I am too. But yeah, you've got A lot of season up there at the end in a. In a time of year when other states aren't hunting. Right. Whereas Wyoming, there's a lot of opportunity in that October time frame to be rifle hunting. Or you could do, obviously, September archery. So, yeah, that's like, that's where I think you're in a good position where you can, you know, fit the draw or fit your schedule to match what you draw.

So, guys, listening, like, I hope you're getting the gist of the fact that, like, there are no excuses if you're getting points, building points and are. Because I hear this a lot, Jaden, from. From people like, you know, I have all these points built up here or there or whatever, but I'm like, it's intimidating because they don't want to just go ahead and apply for a tag and then end up drawing some tag and they, like, know nothing about it. But the thing is, is between. You've got Tag Hub, you've got the Mrs. Articles, you've got all this content out there that's accessible to you. And what is Tag Hub? Like, if you. I think they're doing like this special where It's. It's like 10 bucks a month, and that gets you access to both the Elk Collective and the Deer Collective. I don't know, don't quote me on the price, guys, but it's stupid cheap. It's like 10 or 10 or 10 bucks a month or something along those lines. And it gets you access to all three of those. And there's like endless amounts of information in there. And I've been talking about things like the Elk Collective for I. Since I can't remember. And then like, there's all the other things on top of that. Like, you know, School of September is free on this podcast. And I get dudes like Jaden Bells on who's like, our. Their expertise is much greater than mine when it comes to locating and finding elk. And then you have like, you know, what's Cody's. Cody. Cody has that elk hunting course. It's like audio and it's really freaking good.

Elk hunt course. It's just called the Elk Hunt course.

Yeah, man, I got so much out of that. And I. I don't remember. It was cheap, too. I spent a little money on it or whatever. And, you know, there's just all sorts of stuff like that. And so there's just like no excuse to be overly, you know, don't get paralysis by analysis on when it comes to getting these tags and not using the Resources that are available and don't chintz out and just think that you're gonna get a tag and then stop at Walmart in, you know, Laramie, Wyoming or something, and then go try to find you an elk after you get some groceries or something, you know, I don't know if there's a Walmart in Laramie, Wyoming, but, hey, you never know.

Yeah. Yeah, no, you're exactly right, man. And it's one of those things where I think a lot of times people will be, like, waiting for the. The special tag instead of like, just saying, like, let's go hunt this year and do the research and figure it out. Because one of the things that, like, for example, with the Wyoming general tags, if you're a guy who's like, knows his way around elk hunting and has a little bit of time to dedicate, you know, whether you make a trip in the summer and then come back for the hunting season or whatever the case is, if you've got a little time, dig, dude. There's some great quality on these general elk tags. Now, there's not elk around every tree like you might find in a higher end, like limb Dakota hunt, but you are definitely going to have the opportunity. Kind of like Montana, where the big mountains especially, you know, hold good age, class and people will have the opportunity at looking at some quality bulls versus, like, just sitting back and being like, well, one day I'll go.

It's like, yeah, one day does not teach you anything. I. So in my con, in my circumstance, and I'm so glad I talked to you about this, dude, but, like, in my circumstance where I have the five points, I would much rather go burn a tag and not tag out and then have the chance to go back to that spot in five or six years with another five or six points, then sit around and wait 12 years or something to build up those points and go on one trip, even if that once. And this is just personal preference, even if that one trip is much better in terms of, you know, what I. What my expectations can be, you know, and so I'd rather go hunting more than build up points for like, like, because here's my thing, man, I'm not the best elk hunter you'll like. I'm not. I'm not Cody Rich level, you know, that dude seems to find a freaking elk under every rock he looks, you know, but like, for. Seems to find a freaking elk under every rock he looks, you know. But like, for me, I know elk enough that I know that if there's Elk in those mountains, I'm going to find them, you know what I mean? And that's, that's all it takes. So I'd rather, I'd rather hunt twice in a decade in Wyoming building those points. Of course, you know, we don't know what point creeps going to create in five years or whatever, but versus, you know, sitting around and waiting for 10 or 12 years.

That's exactly right, man. And like I've had the great fortune of guiding guys on some high end hunts, like some hunts that take max points or just under max. And consistently everyone who gets out there is a little underwhelmed by what they expected because they waited so long.

Yeah.

And it's just like, man, it's elk hunting at the end of the day. Like it's, it's even the best tags. It's, it's tough to get what you're looking for. And yeah, I'd much rather be in your boat too. Just go out there and learn some stuff and hunt it more regularly, man.

I got an area I want to ask you about. An area, but off air, I wouldn't mind. Well, I'll hire you, man, to help me out. Well, because I got a couple of options here. But anyway, now I'm all excited to talk to you, but I don't want to, you know, give away. Yeah. Blow it up. So I want to. Let's switch a little bit based on something you just said when you're talking expectations. So the other day I get my Eastman's magazine and you're in it in one of your article. What is your article called? Hang on. Because I just saw it on your.

I think it's just called Wyoming Trophy Expectations. Setting Wyoming's.

Yes, Setting Wyoming Elk expectations. That's what it's called. And you know what, what I like about this article is I don't want people, somebody to like read that headline and be like, oh, well, this is only Wyoming because what you wrote can be applied anywhere. And so you're a guide. I've been guiding this year, you know, like all the things. The expectation thing I think is really important for people to understand because I don't know about you, man, but I had a couple of guys that came out that were under the impression that in this brushy, nasty, steep northwest Montana country, there was like this 350 class bull waiting around every, every tree, you know, and, and for some reason one guy had it in his mind. My, the, the. I. It's like really hard not to use their name. I Don't want to use their name. A client from, from out in North Carolina, great freaking dude. But he was under the impression that he came out to like a trophy class unit. And I'm like, man, this is not a trophy class unit. There are some big bulls in this area, don't get me wrong, that there's, there's been some great big bulls taken out of here. But this is not what you would consider like a limited entry, you know, trophy class kind of, kind of unit. And even if it was, you're not going to find those 350, you know, 360 class bulls around every corner. And, and I love the way that you put it in, in your, in the article from the standpoint of like, you've, you've got to have like this like reality check before you even hit the ground. And I want to talk about that and like make it oriented to. Because there's a lot of people that listen to this show that are planning to hire an outfitter and, and it's not a terrible idea. And I want to speak to that for a minute because I'm a, I'm a DIY guy. But honestly, Jaden, one of my considerations with coming to Wyoming, like my buddy Fonzie Haskell, I don't know if you know him down in Wyoming, he's a guy I thought about maybe just spending the money and going with him and having him guide for an elk hunt or somebody else, you know, I don't know. And so these are things because, you know, again, we were talking about that guy like in Miami. He draws this big tag and maybe he's not interested in having the, the DIY experience. He wants an experience going with somebody that could show him the country because he's spending a lot of money and wants to make it worth his while. Well, hiring an outfitter is a great way to do that. Right. And, and so I kind of got off track there. Anyway, getting back to, you know, the expectations thing. Talk about, like, why did you write that article? First of all, let's start there.

So in 23. 2023 was the first year that I started guiding officially and was like, went out with my first client and it was kind of a test run. I had a, another guy that was there kind of showing me the ropes and showing me the areas. And this dude, he wanted a 350 bowl and because he shot a lot of like the 323thirties on a, on a ranch in Colorado. Mm. Because, you know, the whole over the counter deal, whatever and he just had. He had some good access and he had burned his maximum preference points to hunt this unit with us. He wanted a 350 bull, the poor fella. He was really. He's getting up there in age and didn't really hike anywhere. He missed the bull that was just under what he was looking for. And he had only really. He never. He didn't even see a bull that was like, in the caliber he was looking for in five days. And it was really eye opening to me because I was having a blast, man. We were looking at hundreds of elk. Like, we were seeing, you know, 20, 30 bulls a day. And it was like a really, really good hunt, Right. Like, I'm out here having the time of my life, and this dude's just grumpy because he can't find the 350 bull he's looking for. I'm like, bro, like, what. What are you out here for? If this is like the mindset, right?

Yeah.

And that was interesting. It was, you know, not a great first guiding experience for me. But then this year, you know, and every hunter I've taken since has been a little bit better than that, I would say. But consistently, there's guys coming through camp who have a number in their head, and usually whatever that number is or whatever their expectations is, they expect to put one level less of effort into achieving that. So if a guy comes out and he's like, oh, I just want to. He's like, if a person comes out, I want a 350 bull. I. There's very few cats out there who have the physicality and the patience and the. The woodsmanship to keep up and like, grind through to find something like that, even on the top end units. And then it kind of trickles its way down. Heck, even cow elk hunters, somebody draws a cow elk tag in Wyoming, they come out and they're like, I'm gonna go shoot a cow elk. And it's going to be a quarter mile from the pickup, and I'm not going to have to walk hardly anywhere, dude. The elk are still reacting to hunter pressure and are in hard to reach places. They're still a cow elk hunt, they're still elk. And so just. It doesn't matter whether, you know, and obviously you can fill in the spectrum between there. It seems like folks are wanting whatever it is that's just above what they prepared for. And I would really like to just encourage folks to do more research as to what they could expect before they come out on these hunts, especially if they haven't had that type of experience before. Now, we did have one guy who won a commissioner's tag, and in Wyoming, those allow you to choose the best unit, basically skip to the front of the line when it comes to draw. And this dude had killed two bulls already with his bow. He came out at the end of September. He wanted the 350 or bus, and he out hiked some of the guides that were with him. Right. And he glassed harder than the guys.

That's awesome.

And he was, yeah, he was ready to rip and roar. And he knew how to kill elk. And sure enough, the one bull that they found that met his expectations, they stuck with that sucker and they got him dead. It was just like. It was the. I was like, yes, that's the guy who's put in the preparation and who knows what he's in for when he's looking for this top end. But for the vast majority of folks, if you haven't done that preparation work, it is a much different experience and usually a lot harder than they expect.

Yeah, Yeah, I. I like that. I like that conversation because I. I think that I. I always envision it like this, man. Well, let's say you got a guy that is like a. Let's say he's a dentist that lives in Iowa, and maybe he lives in, like the smaller suburbs outside of a bigger city, and that. That commute into his dentist office every morning. He's seeing these monster bucks, you know, and they're like town bucks or something, you know, they're just on the outskirts, hanging in a cornfield or whatever, you know, and so maybe it builds up in their mind that that's how it is with elk. And, you know, like, there's these big elk everywhere. And so I love the idea of like, kind of, you know, providing a service almost in a way to folks hiring an outfitter that, like, you know, you really do need to have your expectations in check. If you want a 350 class bowl, you. You really have to be willing to go into the backcountry, go get away from those roads, you know, be able to keep up and hike into these areas. They're super rugged. We're not talking about some logging road where, you know, you're gonna have some rag horns bedded down or something. You know, they really do take a lot of extra effort. And, you know, not to say that sometimes you won't, you know, even a. What is that, that saying that blind squirrel finds a net every once in a while. Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that you might not get lucky. And, and you know, here's another thing I found with, with hunting clients too is like they, they come out like this one guy I was talking about earlier, he's like, well, I think this is a trophy class unit. Look at these mountains. And, and he's like, we get, we. I'd like to find like a, he didn't even say 350. He said 300 or better. And he was actually for like a 70 some odd year old man. I, I, I took him on kind of the baton death march of Northwest Montana. I, I took him on kind of the baton death march of Northwest Montana. And I, I kind of felt bad. I took him up there. It was like blow down alley up there, you know, and freaking slick and raining and all sorts of fun stuff. But he hung in there, dude. He hung in there. But that, that day I think was like a real reality check for him. And so when we found a decent 4x5, I couldn't hold him back fast enough. He was shooting that rifle. And so yeah, all of a sudden, you know, it was just, and it's fun, man. You know, they, they, you know what, what I love, especially from people that, that are from back east, they've never seen elk, man. They don't really see elk in real per, in real life. So when, when all of a sudden he's, These animals are 80 yards in front of us, it's like, holy shit, these things are huge. You know, they say the same thing and, and it's just, it's, it's phenomenal seeing their eyes light up like that. But you know, just that, that helps kind of getting them into, into, I don't know, more of a position of, of correct or realistic expectations. And man, I really enjoyed guiding. I really do. It's a lot.

Yeah, those guys who like come out and are excited to be out in the mountains and just like excited to see critters.

Yeah.

Who can take it. For what it's worth. Those are really fun to be with. And like I've got a client coming in next week who I've hunted with twice now. And his whole thing, like, he just loves being out, right. And we've taken some good bulls together. And he goes, I took, I was with him. He killed this bull. That was really nice. And then we kind of upgraded the last time he was out and now he's like, you know, we're going to have to upgrade again. And I was like, you know what that takes, right? He's like, yeah, but, like, what else would I rather be doing? And I was like, that's exactly the attitude. You know, if someone just enjoys being out, gosh, it makes things so much more fun. And when you're seeing critters and are excited about it, I get excited, too. And, like, you know, I think you probably know what I mean when I say this, but at some level, you will see an animal, and then you have to engage and get excited, and then you have to engage guide brain of like, wait, is that. Is that one we want to take or not?

You know?

Yeah. And it's just fun to try to maintain that. That enjoyment of the whole process when you're out there with people who really appreciate it.

I got the opportunity, Opportunity to guide this guy that had. Do you guys have this in Wyoming where you can get basically, like, a disability sticker that allows you from. To shoot from a truck?

Yeah.

So the. The outfitter I was guiding for, they have access to this kind of. This bison ranch that is locally, you know, around here. It's, I don't know, three or four thousand acres. It's pretty big. And anyway, man, it was like, a totally new experience for me. I have never seen so many freaking whitetail that are all rutted out and acting like they do without the hunting pressure, man. It is educational. I could have shot 150 class bucks on a daily basis, sometimes two or three times a day. I called a pretty good one in for him, and it was like the first day, man. And he'd never seen that before. I rattled this buck in, and I'm doing a little bit of, you know, grunts, and this buck, he just comes slithering out of the brush, man. And before I can even determine if that was like, you know, maybe it's your first day. Let's wait a little bit, man. He had that thing on the ground. Boom.

Yeah.

And it was awesome because he couldn't walk very well. Like, he. He couldn't go more than, like, 50 yards from the truck, and it took forever to do that. And he was an older guy, had, like, some kind of back injury. Super cool dude. He was actually. He's actually retired fighter pilot, man. And dude was a cool. A total badass back in the day. Anyway, it was just like guiding on this ranch, man, being able to hunt this ranch. And there were supposed to be elk down on there, and they. They. I mean, we found a few, but no shooters, you know, but watching. Watching the rut, like, I felt like I was granted access to, like, the best whitetail ranch or something on the planet as. As a way for me to educate myself to the behavioral aspects of how ruddy whitetail bucks get. Like, they're stupid, man. They. I couldn't believe my eyes. I couldn't. I. You never see bucks doing that on public land. It was insane, absolute insanity. But it was a ball. So that, that expectation thing with. What else would you. Because you've been guiding a few years, what else would you tell people? Like when. If they're planning a trip with an outfitter, like, what else would you tell people? Just as either a courtesy to the guide or, or. Or something that would help them be more prepared. What would you tell people that were coming out next year to be like your hunting client?

Man? I think the first thing before you even book with a guy is I don't think folks should ever ask what the top end that people are taking off a unit is, like, because you're going to get the. You're going to get the anomalies. When you talk about that, right? Yeah, yeah. You got to talk about like, look, what's your average? Like, what's. What kind of experience should I expect? And like, talking about that experience is really important. I guided some hunts this year on a desert unit that was kind of mid to upper tier point levels. And the experience of that hunt is not what you'd expect. You're driving around a lot, like, we burned so much gas and you're looking over this desert country. It's not what people see in Primos. Like, I was just like, the guys, I think, were a little bit taken aback, you know, compared to when they applied as to what the hunt was.

Was that. So was that a rifle hunt?

It was, yeah, it was a rifle.

Okay, okay.

Yeah, yeah. But. And these gentlemen had actually come out in archery season and cup and it's been a few days out there and we're like, holy crap, this is. This is crazy. Like, not what we expected. And then they came back with rifles. And so they kind of had known by the time they came out with rifle season what they were in for. But still it was like, I think that that first conversation of like, what kind of experience is it? Like, I think that's going to be really important for people because, you know, and then another example is I had a hunter and they knew this. They did their research and it was really great because the guy was like, I can't get around very well. I know we're going to have to hunt the edge of private and public, but you Know, I need to be able to get to the elk and you know, we would like a nice bull and to like, hunt hard for a good bull, but if, you know, a nice six point steps across in front of us on day three, four, five, like, let's do that. Let's take a nice bull. And I was like, heck, yeah. These guys did their research and like, knew exactly what to expect. And they were like, yeah, Giant could show up because it stepped across the right line. But for the most part, they were just like, yeah, we're happy to have this experience and we know what we're getting ourselves into. Yeah. So those, those conversations about what type of hunt is, this is really important because if you're asking me, I don't necessarily want to be sitting out there watching a private boundary, hoping that a bull walks across and like, it gives me a shot where I'm 600 yards from the truck. That's just not my personal style. Right. Yeah. For some people, that's the perfect hunt for where they're at physically or where they're at in their, you know, hunting experience. So it's important conversation to have.

No, it really is. I think that asking them what their expectations are and figuring out a way to maybe bring those expectations into reality. But, but that, that, that more important question is what, what kind of experience are you looking for? I think that's a great experience or. I'm sorry, a great question, because are you, are you, are you looking to sit in like a box blind and look out over a meadow for three or four hours in the morning and three or four hours in the evening, or are you looking for that experience, that western hunt experience, high country mule deer, you know, backcountry elk, you know, those kinds of things that are available to, you know, because like at the outfitter I work for this year, gosh, man, it's such a great operation the way they have everything set up, but they have all of that available. You know, if you, if you just want to sit in a box blind and hope some, some low country elk maybe meander out, maybe a few rag horns are in, there's nothing wrong with that. Those experience, high country mule deer, you know, backcountry elk, you know, those kinds of things that are available to, you know, because like at the, the outfitter I work for this year, gosh, man, it's, it's such a great operation the way they have everything set up, but they, that is available. But the other option is, is if you do want a bigger bowl and you have the capability to go a little bit further and work a little bit harder and you know, stay out all day long, you know, that's available too. And so just kind of getting that out of people. That's. That's great. It. You know what really threw me off with guiding, dude, is I under have all of that available. You know, if you, if you just want to sit in a box blind and hope some, some low country elk maybe meander out, maybe a few rag horns are in, there's nothing wrong with that, those that is available. But the other option is if you do want a bigger bowl and you have the capability to go a little bit further and work a little bit harder and, you know, stay out estimated how you know, I live in the west, I live in elk country. I have elk on my property. Sometimes, in fact, I can hear them bugling in September when I'm sitting on my back deck. And it really pisses me off because I know they're like a hundred yards all day long, you know, that's available too. And so just kind of getting that out of people. That's. That's great. It hurts. Behind me, where I just got home from, you know, going six, seven miles in some. You know what really threw me off with guiding, dude, is I underestimated how, you know, I, I live in the west, I live in elk country, I have elk on my property. Sometimes, in fact, I can hear them bugling. Except really rugged shit and not hearing a bugle, you know.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I get homeless, sit outside with my wife for a minute, and they're bugling right behind me. Anyway, the point is, is like, you know, I'm. And you're. I, I think you're like this too, man. You've immersed yourself into this lifestyle that is hunting. And so I underestimated the ability of peep timber when I'm sitting on my back deck. And it really pisses me off because I know they're like a hundred yards behind me where I just got home from, you know, going six, seven miles in some really rugged shit and not hearing a bugle, you know?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I get home and sit outside with my wife for a minute, and they're bugling right behind me. Anyway, the point is, is like, you know, I'm. And you're. I think you're like this too, man. You've immersed yourself into this lifestyle that is hunting and so that are maybe are not immersed in this lifestyle. Their ability to spot animals and like, like, like animals that are really obvious to Me, man, there is an elk standing right there. Right there. Where, where, where, where, where, where? Yeah, you know, and it's like, I don't. I underestimated the ability of people really know. I don't know how. How you can't see that elk, you know, and that. That. Well, that aren't. Maybe are not immersed in this lifestyle. Their ability to spot animal kind of threw me off, and so I've got to get better at, like, showing people. Okay, now, you see that little tree? Look to your right. Look to your one o'. Clock. Whatever.

Yeah.

Is there something with you?

Oh, yeah. Walking people in on animals is one of the. I. I think it's a very underrated skill. And it doesn't matter if you're talking guided and unguided hunts. If you're just like a good hunting buddy, you got to work on walking people in. And actually, my. My best buddy who I like to hunt with, him and I have very similar style. We'd like to do a lot of spot and stock. And we're very physical about how we getting around the mountains. And him and I, it doesn't matter if we've spotted a moose. I remember specifically we. We glassed up a big, big moose like, two miles away this year, and we just sat there and we're like, hey, walk me in. Like, let's work on this, like, skill, because it is a skill, and I think it's super underrated that people, you know, just in particular need to work on. And then the other piece of that, though, is like, you know, you'll have that element where like, hey, we need to work on walking people in. And then the other is sometimes you go, hey, I've got an out glass up. And you're like, point to me to the face of Betty's on. And I'm going to work on my glassing skills to pick it up after the fact, you know, and so obviously your. Your time crunch there, like, depends on the situation, but I. I really like doing that. I'll be like, oh, got a buck bed down. And my buddy, you know, my buddy or a client or whoever would be like, all right, I'm gonna find this sucker, you know, or vice versa. And it's really tough, but it's like, really good way to develop those skills. Because if you're not used to looking through optics and, like, trying to pick critters up, it can be a huge learning curve.

Let me ask you this, dude, because you. You've got experience in both types of terrain. What, What I Consider like elk country. I, I break it down into two different types of terrain. You've got, you've got your higher country, super timbered, dark timbered, you know, treed, mountainous kind of country. And then you've got your wide open, kind of deserty, more arid type environment, you know, like, like you see a lot in Wyoming and places like Utah and Colorado and stuff like that. Those are like the two area types of terrain that, that I know well or I know that I have hunted. I don't know them both well. I don't want to overspeak there. What, what do you prefer when you're personally going out there to hunt? Do you prefer that wide open? I call it horizon hunting because you can see out to the horizon, you know, where, where it's. It's not like being in the high country timbered units where, you know, maybe, maybe it's so thick and brushy you can only see like 100 yards. What do you have? You have a preference?

I do now, especially because I have kind of just evolved as a hunter and trying to get some bigger critters. Right. Like, I think it's a natural progression and someone's working on their skills in the timber and like, wants to know that game. You should stick with it and kind of go off. But after I felt like I was getting some success in the timber calling elk or whatever, I realized, like, in order to, you know, target bigger animals, it's really helpful to be able to see. So even when I do go into the mountain, I usually make sure I'm in the type of terrain where I can see the elk before I go in on them, because I want to. I, I am in that stage where I'm trying to find a bigger critter. So, yeah, generally speaking, I like the more arid stuff. I mean, in my applications, I even normally put in for a little bit more arid or broken terrain or more deserty terrain, because I like that style of hunt. And then what I've noticed is, like, you can take some of the skills that you've learned from the, the big timber stuff, the calling and the, the, you know, kind of waiting critters out and understanding thermals. You can then apply that to wherever they're at in the desert. I think it's a lot harder to start in the desert, unless you're just a glassing fiend already and you want to do that type of a hunt.

But yeah, I do. I'd love to. I, maybe, maybe what I'll do, maybe I'll just hire you may. You tell me what outfitter you're with and I'll request you, you take me out in that arid stuff. Man, I'd love to hunt. Like, I've never done that. I mean, I, I've hunted arid areas, especially in like Utah where you could see a long ways or whatever, but a lot of that is still high country. Real steep, real rugged country, you know.

Yeah, but.

But that Wyoming stuff, and anybody that's been through Wyoming knows what I'm talking about. That would be something else, man. I would be lost in the sauce. Because any arrow that I've stuck an arrow in, dude, I never saw them until moments before they walked out in front of me. Like, never saw them. And so I would love to try that where you can, you can kind of, like you said, kind of pick and choose. Okay, that's. That's a really nice bull. I'd be proud of that bull. Maybe. Let's, let's. Let's play. Make a play on that one.

Yeah.

So, yeah, anyway, there's all sorts of options, man.

There is. And it's really cool because elk have expanded so much, you know, the last, really probably 30, 40 years, but especially last 10, 15, that they're in all these places that are kind of not what people traditionally think. But the important thing to remind people is when you're looking over these vast, like, desert dry stuff, like, they're not in high densities, generally speaking. So you do have to understand that, like, you could go entire days or a couple days without finding what you're looking for or, you know, or you're just looking over sagebrush and you're like, holy crap, another antelope. Great. Like, you're just like, yeah, but that's.

No different than hunting steep, nasty, dark timber. I mean, you can go two or three days without hearing a peep, and then all of a sudden on the. On the fourth day, the, the. The entire mountain is lit up with bugles, you know, and so, yeah, I just think it'd be. It'd be an interesting experience. Do you ever. Well, let. Actually, can we pause for a minute? Man, I really have to pee and it's distracting me really bad.

Yeah, get after it. Yeah, that sounds good.

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So, okay. I had a chance to think of this kind of story too. This year. I felt like I had a gap in my knowledge about a part of Wyoming. And we, me and my hunting buddy I was telling you about earlier, we decided to draw this license in a more timbered, you know, relatively timbered country. There's parky, there's open slopes and stuff. But it was the first time either of us had been to this part of Wyoming. And it was, I was filling a gap basically of my knowledge and I wanted to go hunting with these buddies. And one of the things, like I was telling you, we took like a, we really took a glassing heavy approach and it was really cool to be up there. And we were able to be in elk every single day. But we only, I only heard bugles like three days of two weeks that I was up there really. Right. So like we were able to be. And this was a limited quota unit, right. So people would expect to be out there pounding the dark timber and finding critters. But you know, it was one of those things where when you do implement that full tool, tool chest of, of options, you can really kind of safeguard against what you're talking about. Going those days without hearing a bugle and I don't know if there's like, man, it's going to be really hard to go back to doing like the, the dark timber shuffle without wanting to like look through glass as well. Because like you're saying, man, sometimes like it's September, right? And there should be bold bugle. But gosh, you can go long stretches of time bound in timber and not hearing a bugle even though you know there's critters in the Area.

Oh yeah, man. This, this last September actually for me was one of the quietest Septembers I've, I've had in a long time. And it's, it's interesting how that works too because like one of the other guides there, he's, he's a buddy of mine and when I told him that, he's like, dude, you're crazy, man. It was one of the best Septembers for bugling I've ever had. And, but, but last year it was the exact opposite. He didn't hear hardly anything bugle wise. And it was one of my best vocal, most most vocal elk I've ever had in September. So it's like, it's so funny how that stuff works, man. I'm always like, I'm always so amazed as to how one guy's experience can be so different than, than the other guy when they're really hunting not that far apart and they're hunting the same country and, and in some cases the same elk. Him and I both had this, this big. He was like a 310ish, you know, decent, really decent bull for public land here. And. Yeah, but he had a collar on. And so we were both kind of hesitant. We didn't. I wasn't sure how I felt about shooting an elk with a collar on, but I don't know, coming out of it, it's like, no, you know what? I should have smoked that thing. But it's just, it's like everybody has these different nuances that happen throughout a season. And the problem is, is sometimes that could really change the way you hunt the next season to your detriment because it was just circumstantial, you know, and so that, but that's what, I don't know, that's what's great about elk hunting, man. Just all these different things that you can, you can sit there and analyze them to death and, and the reality is, is they're just elk and they're mysterious and they don't, they're not going to cooperate ever, you know?

Yeah, well, even on the top end units, man, there's this one area that we call the Thunderdome because. And this is like in a max point unit in Wyoming. The Thunderdome on opening day of rifle season always produces like we just call like, you know, the Thunderdome is where you, you know, whoever draws the, the lucky straw gets to go to the Thunderdome that day.

Nice.

But this, but this year, and I wasn't on the hunt this year, but this year they were like, where the Hell, did the elk go like they were? They just weren't there this year for whatever reason. And the more that I feel like I learn about elk, the more that I also understand or feel like I. You don't know everything. You know, it's like when you dive in, you're like, oh, I think I've got this figured out. And then they'll teach you something new. And so that's, you know, maybe not a great. Great sales pitch for hiring me, because I'm like, well, the more I know, the more I don't know. But it's true, man. And, like, if. If you're not out there learning every chance, I don't know what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's. That's the beauty of it, though, is. And I think that that's why, you know, everybody's looking for this. I don't want to call it an easy bus button, because not everybody's looking for the easy button. Everybody has a pretty good understanding that elk hunting is really freaking hard. It's not easy. There's no easy button. And so I don't. I kind of want to get away from, say, because I've said that in the past, where everybody's looking for the easy button. There are some guys that are. But I think, for the most part, the 99% of elk hunters know that there is no easy button. But there are. There is a consistent theme of looking for these elk patterns and behavioral things that are just consistent from year to year. And even, like, from, you know, they're. They're going to behave the same way in week one, September, as they are in week one in October kind of thing. And the thing is, is, like, elk are just as vastly different as humans are in a lot of ways. You know, one elk is going to respond to your cow call. The other one's not. He's going to ignore you. Another one's going to book over the ridge because he's heard that cow call before. Another one's going to come screaming in, you know, and all elk are different. They have different personalities. They have different peaks during the rut, or they've been fired up by different hot cows than other bulls. You know, there's so many variables, and that's. I think that, like you said, man, I swear, the more I learn about elk, the dumber I feel about elk, because they just continually surprise me. Every year, I learn something like, fantastic. Do you have from this season, whether it's from your own personal hunting or, like, some of the, all the guiding that you've been doing. Do you have like a, like a key takeaway that has really stuck with you this year? Like you when it happened, you're like, holy crap, man. I never even would have thought that. Or okay, that is going in my knowledge toolbox. I'm never going to forget this experience. I just learned something crazy. I always look for a key takeaway. Do you have one from this year?

Yeah, and I wrote it down earlier when you and I were talking just about a different related topic. But the number one, like takeaway is like getting lucky. Isn't the plan like the only thing that really.

Ooh, that's a good one, man.

Yeah. The only thing that really ends up providing in the end is like some persistence and grit, like just sticking with it. And that's just like it doesn't matter. The hunt, whether it's mule deer or elk or pronghorn even, you know, it's just like you gotta. Getting lucky with a critter is just like not a. Not a good way to enter the. Enter your. Your attack on any hunt, man.

I see. I, I love hearing stuff like that because I have been sitting there, you know, who hasn't done this actually? You know, I'll be sitting there on a ridge, maybe it's lunchtime or something and I'm just like burnt out and I'm worn out, tired. I hadn't heard any bugles or something. And I'll be sitting there, I'll be like, man, how lucky would it be if like this 350 class bull just kind of wandered stupidly right in front of me and I just whacked him without even bugling, you know. And who doesn't dream of something like that? And it never happens to me, man. Have you ever been lucky like that where it's just some fluke thing you get a bull?

Um, no. No, I can't recall anytime like that. And, and you know, with deer. So like, I spend a lot of my summer, like I was scouting for deer 37 days this summer. And because I really like to find something to chase that I like am excited about. And I like, I'm like, okay, great. Like I've got a target buck. Well, this year, for the first time in a handful of years, I didn't find a target buck. Not one that like got me super pumped and was like, I was excited for. So then going into the hunt, like, sure. Like I only. I carved out like five days because we have a pretty short rifle season where I live. You Know, for mule deer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

It's a, it's a six day season. I didn't want to be there on the. Oh yeah. I didn't want to be there on the opener. And I was like, you know what? Look, I didn't find a, a big buck, like a, like a big, big buck in my scouting. I shouldn't expect to get lucky and just turn up one hunt hard for what you know is there and then like just like run the game plan. And of course, like, would I have been stoked if a giant showed up and I got a giant? Yeah. But I also kind of adjusted my expectations and was like, you know, I've seen this class of buck throughout the summer. Any one of these five or six, seven deer that I've seen over the summer, like, would make me happy because I know that's what's there and I'm not going to just try to get lucky and turn something crazy up. So it was also nice because I, it took a lot of pressure off. I wasn't out here trying to make something happen out of nothing.

Yeah, interesting, man. So have you ever, have you ever had a, that same kind of approach on like a mountain whitetail or is that pretty specific to mule deer in your mind?

You know, I think in particular it's the difference between like a rut hunt versus maybe a not rut hunt. Right, yeah, because certainly, yeah, because like, and I've been down to Colorado, I've been in Nebraska on a rut hunt, and I actually just went to Michigan this year on a, on a rut whitetail hunt. And I was in Idaho. Gosh, that's over to Idaho for a rut white mule deer hunt. And those ones you show up and you basically go like, okay, let's see what's here. Like, I, I like to take a couple days to be like, let's, let's assess the situation and set expectations and then you know what you're chasing right now. Maybe that's a little bit different because I have the luxury of quite a bit of time, but it is one of those things where like, I don't run into those rut hunts thinking like, well, I'm looking for X class or bus. I'm like, okay, let's see what's around. And then, you know, if I want to keep holding out and possibly go without feeling tagged, that's great. In Michigan this year, actually, dude, the rut was crazy where I was at and, but I just kept seeing smaller bucks, smaller bucks, smaller bucks and the guy who I was hunting with, it was like, dude, you could take whatever buck you want. He's like, we're trying to, you know, be a little more selective, yada yada. And I was like, you know what? Let's just take it to the last day. And sure enough, dude, 30 minutes, 40 minutes before shooting light ended on the last day, I got my opportunity and I sailed one over his back. Everything but taking a whitetail. But, yeah, it was one of those things where I was like, you know what? I'm going to be okay going home, not taking home a buck. I want to just experience this whole thing.