Episode #3: From Banker To National Cleaning Divisional (with Damien Collins)

No worries. So we're here with Damien Collins. So thanks so much for joining us, Damien. Much appreciated, mate. I wanted to get started with. Maybe you can tell us who you are, what your current role is and then we'll go from there.

Yeah, no worries. Well, look, thanks for having me, Jared. I've always wanted to be on a podcast, so hopefully there's many more to come, so. Yeah, obviously. So I'm part of the Local Guys franchise, so I've got a couple of different roles actually within the Local Guys. I'm what's called a divisional leader for our. Our cleaning division across the country, but I'm also what we call a regional franchise partner in the Test and Tag division, mainly for the Queensland area and northern New South Wales. So, yeah, yeah, a couple different hats, but keeps me very busy actually, so. Which is good. Having a lot of fun while I do it at the moment.

Yeah, beautiful. No worries at all. Well, I thought we could touch on that a little bit and talk about how you came into this role where you started off originally. Get a little bit of a background about yourself. When we've got people that are looking at joining us for the cleaning or the Test and tag up in Queensland or far north New South Wales, they can get an understanding of who they're going to be dealing with and what your background is a little bit. So do you want to maybe get started and just tell us. I know you've come from a finance background and I know you've got a family cleaning business, so do you want to tell us a little bit about each of those and then we'll kind of go from there, hey?

Yeah, of course. Well, I guess. Well, probably even take it back a little bit further. So I guess growing up, I was always around small business. My family, obviously, Mum and Dad, they had. They had their own small business for as long as I can remember, for many years. I had a hardware store actually before the Bunnings sort of came into Australia and sort of took over the world. They had their own hardware store in Toowoomba, a regional town in southeast Queensland. So I sort of grew up around business, really, not knowing at the time, but I was. I used to just go to Mum and Dad's store on weekends and play around with the other kids. And then as I sort of got older, I was working in the business. So that.

That's.

That was sort of my first taste to sort of small business, but I didn't really know that then. But effectively.

How old. How old were you when that. How old Were you when they, they had that business?

Oh mate, I, I, well I know they brought the business in Toowoomba when I was only a toddler and then they pretty much had that all throughout my teenage years and even into university. So I think they sort of retired when I was 18, 19. So I really grew up around the business. Okay, yeah, so, but, but from there I guess being, being as a student.

I finished high school so, so sorry, I just, just, just, just on that. No, you're right. So I just want to as much as possible. So growing up around the hardware store, so you would have seen business from a very young age. Obviously Mum and Dad are business owners so you were very much bred into that. I guess probably we're always destined for business ownership I guess in that regard growing up around it.

Yeah, well that's right, that's what I was sort of saying. I didn't know that at the time. It was almost like a playground for me but it actually instilled this, this passion for small business that again, when you're young you don't really know but as you get older and you're working for someone else or working in a corporation, to be honest, that was the drive where it sort of took me to wanting to own my small, my own business because of that, that history I had with the family or growing up in a family business. So. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It really sort of, it's quite very.

Similar to my story to be honest with you because we were the exact same way. Our parents owned a health food store and mum had her own small business and dad had his health food store and before that had his truck business which he just drove a truck. So I can very much relate. I think that it was from a young age it's kind of what you see Mum and Dad do. You quite often tend to go into that for yourself. So, so yeah, no, I completely understand that. Sorry, please continue.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, so from there, once out of school I did, I guess what most people do. I went to three, did university, got a degree in, in marketing and then out of university I ended up with a job with one of the big four banks in Toowoomba, so. And elsewhere.

Why did you decide on marketing?

I guess at the time, to be honest, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I started off accounting, followed my big, Followed my oldest brother did about six months, didn't like accounting. I thought, oh well, give marketing a go. So got a marketing degree.

So Shane's with Shane. Shane went through Accounting. Did he.

Shane's done accounting and my older brother, he's. He's an accountant as well. So accountant by trade. So.

Okay.

I started to follow but I just. Yeah, I, I couldn't. Yeah, about six months was about enough.

Why was that?

Oh it just, just wasn't for me. I don't think the, the numbers and so. But.

Yep.

But Bl Mehal I. I go into finance anyway. So I go into banking anyway.

Similar. Similar type of thing. The only reason I ask is because obviously Stacy, my wife, she's an accountant and she does a lot of our books in the business and she also runs a lot of the accounting training in the business as well for new franchisees that come in and give them some insight around bookkeeping and accounting and all the obligations with the tax department and all the rest of it. And she's the same way. She's more of a. I think she's very happy that she did the accounting but. And it has that as a foundation. It certainly helped us in our business but. And our franchise partners in their businesses. She's quite often taking calls and providing support around that but I don't think it's her true calling. I think that yeah, it's a certain type of person that tends to be an accountant.

I know, yeah, I think, I think so you either love it or you don't sort of thing. So. But, but yeah but as I was sort of saying I, I did end up informing finance actually of all of all sort of things. So because there wasn't really being a sort of smallish regional town there wasn't I guess a great opportunity from a marketing point of view. So it was either A stay in Toowoomba or B move to Brisbane. And I decided to stay and, and I picked up a job in finance. So which, which in high school you.

Were, you were a broker or.

No, no, I was in. Working in the bank in the. In the business area actually. So we were, I was what was called a assistant to the relationship manager or the business manager but effectively our, our role was. We were, we were the bank to business clients. So we had a set number of business clients that we would deal with and, and, and they were, we were the bank to them. So they would contact us for everything they wanted so anything from business lending, their day to day accounts, understanding about their business, working with them to try and grow their business. So we, we were the face of the bank for a select number of clients. So that was my.

Can I ask, can I sorry, can I ask what Was the reason for wanting to get into finance? What was your goals there? Was it look, it seemed like it might be a lucrative industry. What was the thought pattern around getting that way?

Yeah, probably probably a little bit of both. So my, this is when I was, this is probably I was still at university when I, I got the job so I was only 19, so I was still fairly young. So and I, I like the, the appeal of it and, and yeah probably the money was the big thing as well or where that could sort of take me. So it was probably around those two main, I guess main driving factors.

From there.

But, but, but insane that though the, the finance or the banking industry. And how did you find it a great foundation? Well, well, as I was about to say it did really give me a foundation a little bit like, a little bit like my childhood working within a small business. I didn't realize at the time of, of how, how much knowledge that parted on me because I was dealing with business operators who, who were you know, were dealing multimillion dollar contract contracts are really big operators. But I, I would see everything behind the scenes of, of working with the business, working with great operators about their business and maybe not so good operators and, and sort of you really. That picks up on, on, on what, what makes a business thrive or what, what doesn't. So it really parted a lot of knowledge on onto me which at the time I didn't think I'd maybe use that in the, into the future but it, it really allowed me to see what works and yeah, so that was.

Yeah, so you got a lot of good hands on knowledge there and probably got to see behind the scenes and a lot of people's businesses that you, a lot of people wouldn't actually get to see what people do right. What people do wrong. That sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Yeah so that's, that's, that's exactly right.

And then, and then just very similar to your role. Very similar to your role now.

Well, exactly that that's another thing that the, all these things that I've picked up over the years has really helped me I guess part my knowledge onto my franchise partners that I deal with because I've seen, you know, what, what people do and you know and see sometimes the pitfalls people fall into. So it really does help me in talking to my franchise partners but also my own business as well. It really, it really does help. So but, but there, but made from there.

So can I ask. Oh, sorry, I'll just ask a quick question in regards to that one. So what was the. Because I know you're going to probably lead on to. From there, you moved on to else, but I'd love to get the details around what was. So I'm guessing from there you're going to say that you, you moved on to the cleaning business. Was that, was that the next step? Sorry I kind of cut you off there.

No. Well, yeah, it was basically moving on from there. So through my banking career, I did work up the chain from, you know, I end up having a list of clients myself that I manage and whatnot. And then I guess it was, it was, everything was going fine within the industry. I was really, I was, I was sort of moving ahead, but I guess something was sort of missing within the finance industry for me and it actually happened. I actually.

What was it?

Well, to be honest, to this day I still don't know, but I, I can tell you when it happened. I actually went, I had a couple of months overseas traveling around the States and when I got back, I, I sort of said to me, I, I just need to do something else. I needed to try something different because I just didn't have the passion or the drive to keep going. And, and, and I actually changed banks for, for a year. So I was still within the finance industry. I, it was just a different shirt, effectively I put on a different shirt and I thought that may, I thought that may reinvigorate me to drive again, but again, it still wasn't, wasn't missing. And, and it sort of took me back to my younger.

Was it work, life, balance or a.

Little, little bit of both. I certainly. Big hours, overworked, like constantly overworked and, but just not having the same. In the back of my mind, I always knew I wanted to work for myself and I think I got to the stage where what I was doing, I wasn't getting anywhere closer to working for myself. So I really needed to make that step or that leap effectively. And otherwise I could see myself 10, 15 years and still in the same role, basically. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I needed to make that.

So what was the, what was the driving point behind that? Like, I know, I mean, was it that you're, you know, you, you're working hard, you work doing long hours and you're making the, the bank another million dollars at the end of the year? Or was it, was it that you not seeing your family enough? Like, what was, what was the drop? Because we always see, and we talk about it here in the support center quite often. I know we have conversations all the time of someone will have their pain point and generally people will stay on track on whatever they're currently doing until that pain point gets strong enough. And it's kind of, eventually it just goes, that's enough. And I have to, I have to jump out of, you know, the boiling water that I'm in or whatever. But quite often if you slowly turn up that boiling water, people, you know, it's that whole analogy that the frog will sit in the boiling water until it boils, but if you chuck it in boiling water, it'll quickly jump out. So I'm just trying to understand what was that pain point for you where you just like, I understand that you wanted to have your own business, but there must have been something in small business ownership that stood out to you, that was something that you weren't getting satisfaction from in your current role.

Well, well, it's, it's funny you say that because it's the people that you talk to who are most passionate about their business and generally they're the ones that are operating really, really well. And it's the passion that oozes through them. And you can actually see it's not just, it's not just a job. It's not just turning up, ticking things over. They got a passion for what they do. And I think that's the biggest point for me was I, I want, I need that passion or I want that passion. And, and, and I think that was the big thing was okay, well, and I already knew I had that taste of being in a business. And, and to some extent that's where I always wanted to get to. But it was really, I needed to make that leap to have that same passion that, that you, that I was dealing with people on a day to day basis that had that. But, but I didn't have that where I was at. And that was the, that was the reason for the move. And you know, I guess the things that hold you back, taking that step is, you know, it is scary, it is unknown and what, what. Not from there, but once you make that decision and you've got the passion and the drive behind you, it makes that a lot easier to, to, to really progress yourself further forward from there.

Yeah, sure. Okay. All right. No, so that I completely understand where you're coming from. That one, it's. But I've felt very similar things in the past and that's probably a big driver for myself into small business ownership as well. So, so then what happened? So we weren't feeling the passion. So where did you go to from there?

So, so, so basically so once, once I decide to I guess look for something else, I, I needed a, I needed a role to go into. So my, my brother and sister in law. So Shane and Kelly, they, they just bought into a, a cleaning business actually they purchased an existing cleaning business. It was being run. Okay. But once they were in it for about 12 months they made a few changes. They were working in the business full time. They were building their business up and we got talking more about where he was taking his, the business I guess and the opportunities for growth and again he's been in business all his life and that's where I wanted to go go through. So we got talking more about where we could take this business or, or where where we could sort of you know, really sort of leverage both of our skills.

Because he's got a bit of a backstory as well, doesn't he? He, he had a tile business.

Yeah, he, he had his own tile business for a number of years I think for roughly about 15 years in business as well. So, so, so again he grew up in, in, in the family business as well. And, and he got into his own business also. He sold that.

And then because some of those people that don't know, for some of those people that don't know, he's obviously in the business with you as well as his wife as well. So we've got Damien, Shane and Kelly. So Kelly's Shane's wife. So it's all three of you in the business currently, isn't it? And you do more of the, the franchising side and then Shane and Kelly do a lot more of the training side.

Exactly. Yeah, that, that, that's exactly right. So, so everyone brings all their skills to, to the, to the front, which is great. Yeah.

Do you know why Shane left the, the tile industry and, and then decided to get buy a cleaning business?

He was in a franchise system that, that from, from my, from my understanding it, he was having a number of issues with, with that system and, and he needed to effectively get out. I guess it wasn't working for him with the, some of the stipulations that they had. So they, they needed to, they eventually exited for that which is probably the other scale that they had a poor experience affected within the system, the franchise system.

So why, why did he. Because I know being a retail business that comes with a lot of things such as overheads, big rents, you know, lots of staff costs and there's plenty of overheads. Why did he look to the service industry. Did he discover something like why pick a service based business after when he the effectively had the skill set in a retail operation? Was there a reason for that jump?

Well, one of the biggest things in retail, especially the tile industry at the time was if for whatever reason, if your sales had a dip in your sales or whatever it may be, the costs were so high. So a retail environment and the particular shop that they had, they were paying astronomical rents at the time and it really did hurt the business that if they weren't keeping up with their sales, the big cost, the big fixed costs, like, like rent, like wages really took an impact on the business and obviously the stress levels went up as well. So one of the big things about moving from that retail environment is you didn't have those costs and into the service based industry where you've got a lot of variable costs but those fixed costs you don't sort of have as much. So that was one of the big keys. And simple things like operating from home, having a work life balance, all that sort of combined together, it makes it a lot more attractive offering.

Yeah, I know coming from our end as well, you know, we've come from a very similar path. We had juice, couple of juice franchises and then a restaurant franchise. And you know the, so we know all too well, you know, you're dealing with shopping centers, rents and you lose a element of control when you've got a landlord that controls the space. And then yeah, huge cost of goods for all of the, all of the stock that we'd had to buy, which I'm assuming in the tile industry would be astronomical. And then yeah, labor's costs are always going up as well, which is a huge part of the business. So I know for us it was like 10% margins if you were doing everything perfectly. And then out of that you still got to pay your loan off. So you know, there's not much meat left on the bone after all said and done. Which is interesting of how they, you know, you guys all took a similar path to us in that regard. Where you started off in the retail and the hospitality side of things and then sort of moved to the service based business. Very, very similar model to myself and Stacy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Not only that, you know, they're opening seven days a week because fair, effectively the shopping at the center was open seven days a week. So you had to, whether, whether or not you had clients. So you're paying staff as well. And you're right, the, the, the, the net profit percentage was, was that was so low because of those fixed costs. When you move over to that service based industry it was, it's completely different so it's, it's a lot more rewarding from that point of view. So yeah they were, they were some of the biggest contributors to getting out of that.

Yeah, yeah restaurant was, we thought on our end it was, you know, it was hard work doing seven days a week in a shopping center. Then we went to the restaurant. Seven days a week in a shopping center plus nights in the shopping center as well.

Exactly.

Yeah. It's public holidays and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, work life balance was non existent.

Yeah exactly.

So okay, cool, no worries. So that gives us a bit of an understanding of Shane and Kelly's direction which, which is great. So they've, they've got into this, this cleaning thing. They've obviously looked at the work life balance or lack of previously and decided that the cleaning industry. Why the cleaning industry?

Well, well I guess that that's a decision I'm, I'm, I looked into myself when I first joined is to be honest I knew I wanted to work for myself or get into my own business. I just, I didn't know what the business that we end up choosing what was operating really well. But that, that being my background in finance I did my own research into the industry and it's quite surprising of how big the industry actually is. The cleaning industry is one of the, one of the biggest industries within Australia. You know we're not, we're talking a billion dollar industry and so it's, it's quite, quite large in relation to how big this industry actually is and, and the potential and the opportunities that are within the industry because there's so many different avenues of cleaning that you can go down to. So that did. So from my background being in finance, looking at minimizing risk, looking at all the threats and opportunities I thought it was a perfect opportunity. If you asked me maybe a few years before I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have even had a thought about the cleaning industry but the more I looked into it the more the numbers made sense and the more that I, I knew there could be a great opportunity to really move forward with a successful business.

It's quite funny like I think that was one of the, the surprising things for me when we went down the path of cleaning is how high the average job value actually is. I think we're sitting at somewhere around the $450 mark per average job at the moment which you know when, when People hear that, they sort of can't believe it. They think, oh, cleaning, you know, $100 or whatever. No, no, the guy's 450 on average.

Yeah, exactly.

It's. Yeah, it's, it's quite interesting in that regard. Okay, cool. No worries. So. So you've taken over this business and it's out in Toowoomba from Queensland and it's growing and I know you'd started to bring on some good commercial clients and stuff like that. Do you want to maybe talk about some of the type of clients that you deal with currently and you've dealt with in the past in that business?

Yeah, so we were building the business out really, really well. We were out from promoting it and, and we were actually having a really diverse range of clients within our book. So yes, we had our end of lease clients and our domestic clients, but we were really getting involved in the commercial side of things as well. So we were doing clients anywhere from night cleans and offices, retail shops. We had a, we had child care facility that we were doing. We've got a airport hangar that we had as well. But we, we had a really big opportunity built around. We were doing for a mining company. Actually a lot of mining houses within Tom. I think, I think at the biggest it got to about 12 houses that we were actually servicing daily. So it was literally like an apartment that or like a hotel effectively that we were servicing day in, day out, which we built our business up. And, and, and we put on staff to really accommodate that because there was a really huge contract for us. So, so that, that was a great. That was, that was all going really well. The business was going fantastically. But then Covid hit. So I think it was there about to start of 2020, we, we had obviously the pandemic and this, this client being an international mining company, they had all their staff effectively flying from overseas once the board is closed.

Because we were talking about thousands of dollars a week. Thousands of dollars a week, that job, wasn't it?

Yeah, it was, it was literally. It was, it was really. It was getting up to over 150 to 200 hours a week. It was literally a really big contract that we've had that and we had to gear up to, to do it that way. So we were talking, yeah, we were talking a lot of dollars in relation to that. But all of a sudden this contract overnight just, just fell over because they couldn't, they didn't have the staff coming in, they didn't have the houses being rented out and all Of a sudden this, this, this business is just. A lot of the income is just completely wiped. So that, that was while it was going really, really well. It was an external threat that we had no control over. You know, it doesn't matter what we did. That client was happy with us, everything, but we just did not have any control over, over this event that unfortunately, that would have a major impact on our business at the time, so. Which was, yeah, a steep learning curve at the time, that's for sure. Yeah, yeah. So, but as I guess as the, the saying goes, one door opens, you know, door closes, a window open sort of thing. So with. That obviously did bring opportunities further forward from there, which probably if that never happened, we wouldn't have looked at other opportunities. But, but it did bring up opportunities where we needed to diversify, and that led us eventually to the local guys, effectively. Yeah.

Yep. So the idea in that regard, I remember speaking to yourself and Shane at that time and you were telling me your story, and I know that diversification was one of the words that was brought up regularly. I think that Shane had openly sort of admitted that, you know, we might have had all of our eggs in one basket a little bit too much. And he wanted to look at an opportunity to diversify through that process of having the cleaning business. You'd seen test and tag, is that right?

Well, actually, I came across tested tag when I was in finance, actually. I, I had a, I had a business customer that was, was getting into test and tag on, on, I guess on the side, as a side business. This was years and years ago and, and I remember him talking about it, saying he's, he's actually making more money out of test and tag than what he was doing with his main business because he had all the big overheads, he had the rent, and he had the big wage costs and whatnot. So I knew a little bit about test and tag from many years ago through him. And when we talked about, okay, well let's diversify, what are we going to diversify into? That's when I brought up test and tag. I thought, well, why don't we have a look at test and tag? And. And then we sort of started to investigate a little bit more around that effectively when, when we wanted to diversify going forward.

Yeah, perfect. Okay. So that's obviously how you got in contact with us. And I think we were originally having the conversation around a unit franchise, and we'd seen that you guys had some pretty good runs on the board as far as your business knowledge and some history in, in business and done some great things within the, the cleaning industry as well. So I think that we suggested that maybe you guys look at coming on as a regional franchise and at the time you'd taken over Queensland and, and far north or northern New South Wales and that's, I think that's where we kind of sat for a while, didn't we?

Yeah, yeah yeah that was, that's right. So that was a good opportunity for us to I guess just get our feet on the ground and build the division up in those areas and also build the test and tag up and the brand and the name in the areas. So yeah we sort of just concentrate on that. Yeah and get that strong so to speak.

Yeah so in that regard you had your own test and tag business which you still operate today. I know that you're looking at potentially moving that along at some point but you got into the test and tag industry. How did you find that process when you started the test and tag? Because I'll ask you about the franchising side separately but just the actual having the test and tag business itself.

Look it was actually really enjoyable. We were doing something different so but we, and as I said we were diversifying but the whole process from, from start to finish was well to be honest was a really easy process to understand. Like the training that we went through with head Office through all the staff, they were sort of lovely with us. I answered every single question and the training that, that we sort of did in the practical side of things made it really easy to understand and then once we got into the business, you know, again my background I was doing budgets, forecasts I thought oh well look if we can get at least a couple of jobs within the first month, you know, they'd be happy because being a banker they're always on, on the, I guess, you know, sort of never overly optimistic being a banker or ex banker so you always sort of plan for the worst. I, I, I remember our, our first week into the business we had leads and we, we had, I think we had a, a handful of leads within our first week and we had jobs booked in our second week. Like it just sort of took off straight from the get go so everything and, and that was one of the big things that was really pleasing for us because Shane's previous experience being in a franchise where hadn't been so good coming into the local guys and, and, and one of the big things about choosing the like local guys is the trust that we felt from head office and, and the people that we were dealing with and to actually see that follow through with with jobs straight away it was even, it was, it was fantastic. Like we were budgeting sort of a few weeks out but as I said we were hit the ground running and and, and it just is built further and further from there. So the whole process from start to go was just. Yeah was always top, top notch for sure.

So you had a, a quite a good lead that came through to you very early. I think it was within the first couple of months. Do you want to talk about that one and yeah, go into that one a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. So I think within, it might even be within the first sort of five weeks or within the nearly the first month. So we got a lead through for a student accommodation in, in Brisbane. So it was effectively two touts that we, we were, we were quoting on to test something. I think it was roughly about 6,000 items that we, that, that we we quoted on. And through the lead through head office we, we ended up winning the deal. So which was a great, which was a great opportunity and a great. Put our business really in a great position because you know we've obviously we've outlaid some cost to get into the business but really within one job we had, we had that money back and even, even some leftover and, and since then we've, we've done the job on a regular basis. We do it every six monthly with the, the RCD checks as well. So from one lead it's, it's paid, it's paid over and over again. Our initial investment and yeah, it just goes to show that what, what can be out there and, and to be honest, I don't know. You know without having the head office send that through and the work that head office helped to win that deal. I don't know. You know, I'm sure we wouldn't have won it just on our own if we were out on our own. Right. Running our own test and tag business. So that, that was as I said paid for itself straight away.

I think that's the thing with. Yeah I remember the we, we were like oh we've got the franchise paid off and we're only a few months in which is, which is a great start. But I think that's the one of the things with test and tag. It's very easy to become a test and tagger. You know a lot of people think you need to be an electrician. You don't. It's like a one day course and you're licensed but there's a very big gap between people that do their license and then people that are still doing test and tag even six months later, definitely 12 months later. I think that it's a hard market to crack into work wise. I think that because you're dealing with business to business only and you're dealing with a lot of offices, schools, universities, all sorts of, sort of larger corporations, most of them don't want to deal with Joe Blow's Test and Tag that may or may not have insurance, that may or may not have police clearances and working with children and things like that. And there's no one sort of upholding the brand standards and making sure that they've got standard operating procedures for this and work health and safety stuff for this, that and all the rest of it. So I think that that's one of the hardest parts is, I think it's a lot easier if you were, you know, starting a cleaning business or some other sort of business. It's probably easier because you could find work up and down your street with test and Tag, you can't do that. So it is that. Does tentative businesses tend to want to work with someone? Would you agree with that?

Oh, completely. I think the, the having the franchise support and the franchise advertising as a whole and just the, the branding and the name behind us made life so much easier. I would have hated having to go out and on my own and really try to generate that business because there is a little bit of a lag time in relation to doing some of those quotes and getting those back through. But having the support of the system of the franchise behind you, you're getting leads through from head office. People are actively looking for, for test and take. They need it, need it done within a relatively short time frame. So it made it a lot, lot easier. Like I never in my wildest dreams that I think I would have jobs with booked within my second week. Again, coming from a banking background, I, I was doing forecast budgets to really not making sort of any income within sort of five, six weeks because I thought it'd just take time to, to just build up the name and, and just get it out there. But there was literally jobs coming in within, within the foot within the second week. So I, I completely agree. Makes the process a lot, lot easier for sure. Definitely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely. Well, that's great. That's, that's excellent that, you know, we've obviously got to the point where we've got that that business is pumping along. I know you're doing Six figure numbers in that business which, you know, which is great and it's humming along I think. I just wanted to talk to you about the franchising side now for the test and tag. So I know that that's been really popular in Queensland and New South Wales. You've got a number of franchisees that are working underneath yourself every six months. Do our QAR where we'll get reviews in from our franchise partners on how we're going as a support center and how our divisionals are going as well and our regionals and I know we're always getting strong feedback from yourself. How do you, how do you find that process? Now you've got, as I said, a number of guys working underneath you and your core, often onboarding new people. How'd you find moving into that type of role where you're now moving into more of the support role and assisting. I know you've just had new people join you recently. You do a lot of the infield training for the guys. So for those people that don't know people come through and they'll do a week of training with the support center where they'll learn all of the systems and the back of house stuff and how to use all of our software and accounting and marketing and all that sort of things. And then, then we send them out for a week with our divisionals where that's where they're with Damien and he'll go through the hands on side of things. So yeah. Do you want to tell me a little bit about the franchising role in regards to test and tag and how that's been morphed into your journey?

Yeah, yeah. Well, to be honest, I think the franchising space and dealing with the people, it's probably the, one of the most rewarding for me and it's probably one that I get the most enjoyment out of because I am right, right from even from, I'll take it even from the start. When I'm talking to people that are looking at a franchise or the possibility of a franchise, I guess I'm talking to people that, you know, want to be there, you know, small business owner or want to work for themselves. So I, I do, I do see that and I, I see that I was in that position at some stage years ago. So it, I do emphasize where they're at and, and, and I guess their motivation or, or their passion to be in a small business owner. So that's what I really enjoy is talking to people and, and then obviously once they do make that commitment or going through the process to, to join the franchise. I love the journey that we take them on, or I love the journey that I'm involved with them to take them on from going from thinking about being their own business owner or having a dream about being a business owner and then trying and then turning that dream into reality and then, and then working with them from, you know, once they're on boarded to working when they first start into the business, especially if they've never had business experience before. It is a bit of a journey that we've got to go through together to just effectively keep the confidence up and keep working through with them. Because once they go through that journey, I've seen them go the other side, where I've got some franchisees now that have been in the business for a couple of years and I've experienced the highs and the lows. You know, like. Like anything in life there is highs and lows. But. But it's, it's the journey of when they first start where they are today that's the most enjoyable part that I, I think is. Well, the most rewarding for me is helping those people achieve those dreams that maybe was just a dream, you know, a few years ago is now reality. So to be honest, that's one of the best parts about the role, is going through that process with them and then, and then, and then, you know, celebrating the highs with them when, when they see their numbers or they see where the business is at. And having that, having, you know, celebrating their success is fantastic.

Absolutely. No, I couldn't agree more. And I think that that's one thing that I think that we tend to do that I know a lot of other franchises don't do is, you know, they might come in and say, yep, cool, we'll take your money. And yeah, he's a lead or he's a lead or two or whatever. But it's very much. Once you've come in and done that initial training, you're off doing your own thing and we don't really see you again. I know that one thing that we've been working really closely on and same with the guys here in the support center, is almost the business coaching aspect of it as well. And that business coaching aspect comes down to a few different things. There's the emotional side, which is a massive area in itself as assisting people to think differently and be able to, you know, come on as small business owners now, which is a completely different mindset. But then also the upskilling them on the Technical ability as well and being able to. I know we've got scorecards now and we're providing coaching sessions regularly and everyone has access to their dashboards where they can see things like the conversion rates and they can see their ATVs or average transaction values and what we're trying to coach them. We have quarterly coaching sessions where we're talking about, this is what we need to be working on here. This is the lever we need to pull there to be able to get your business to where you want it to go. And I think that, you know, we always start those conversations in regards to, all right, you tell us what the goal is. Is the goal you want to take over the world and you want to be a millionaire, or is the goal that you want to make X amount that can cover you so you can take Fridays off to play golf and you're making enough and you've got that flexibility where you can spend more time with the kids or what is the goal? So I know, like starting those sessions and having that, everyone's got that different goal and we're trying to move the needle, pull the levers or whatever that we need to do to sort of set that up for them. And that's what I love about our model is we are fixed fee. So I think if we were running off a percentage, the model would very much be set up in regards to more money. More money, more money, more money. Because that's going to flow on to us where we don't make any more money from providing these coaching sessions and assisting people to grow their business. It's purely for the fact of that if we have strong franchise partners, businesses, then as a network, we have a stronger franchise network. And then ultimately, obviously more people are going to want to join us because we're providing genuine value. So. No, I totally agree with you. I think that that's one of the most rewarding parts for myself as well. As you see someone coming in and I've seen them from. You have as well. You've been around long enough now where you see them at this end of the spectrum and then they go on this journey and then you see them on this other end of the spectrum and you know, they're the happiest people in the world. But you're like, I remember you when you were two months in and you were cursing at me. So it's so funny just watching them go through that lifestyle and then seeing now you're helping a couple of people with exits. So you've got one person that's going through the exit at the moment. And I think the, they've sold out and made a good return, a very good solid return on their investment. And, and I think they've tripled their money somewhere around there. So how's that going through that experience now?

Yeah yeah, well, that, that's been, I guess that's a new experience now that we've been going through. But I, again, part of my role is just supporting them through that and making the, the transition as easy as possible. Unfortunately, it's a, it's an exit due to health concerns because you know that the guys in that business have built their business up really, really well. But like, I think health always comes first, so they've decided to, to sell and move on. But, but the, the good thing is though, they, they are, you know, they're selling more than what they've invested in and they're going to make money out of it, which is great. So, so it does at least it does does help them to, you know, obviously set up whatever the future may hold for them going forward. But, but again, you know, it's about supporting our franchise partner who's exiting the business, making that, that transaction as, as seamless as, and easy as possible. But also the person coming in is making sure that we make that process as easy as possible for the person coming in, making sure that they're fully trained and, and, and really ready to hit the, the ground running because they will come into a business that, that is quite busy. There isn't there basically will be be. Be flat out straight away. So, so that's the other side of making sure that they, they're ready to go as well. So it's. But, but again, you know, it's been, but the process has been fine and, and it's a learning curve for me as well because it's my first time. But, but it's making sure that all everyone is is in a position where when they sell, ready to go.

Yeah, and I think that's the important thing to point out. I know that franchise partner that's exiting did an incredible job when they came in and they worked the system very intelligently and they leveraged off of all of the leads. I think they had one of the highest conversion rates and very husband and wife team, very hard workers and they came in and they did the right things and you know, now they've set themselves up in the position to make a successful exit. So I think that yeah, very, very well handled on their behalf. And yeah, it's A shame that you know on the reasons behind it. But I think that, I think that it's a testament to them in the way that they built it up and now they're passing it along as you said, and providing a genuine valuable asset to the next person to come in who's basically got a very successful business that's putting along. So yeah, I think it's a win win for everyone.

Yeah, completely agree.

Okay, cool. No worries. So yeah, so now we've been doing the franchising side of things successfully in that regard and all the rest of it. We were growing as a franchise and we had discussed with you, we had opened up our PE control division with Sean and Renee as divisionals and that's been going along incredibly successfully and getting great growth in that regard. And we knew that cleaning was always going to be an area that we wanted to move into. So we had some successful franchise partners or regional franchise partners that had happy successful franchisees underneath them. So it was the obvious question before we went to market was to discuss with you and your family if you would like the opportunity first. We, we had very in depth conversations around that and went back and forth and we decided that that was something that we were happy with. The relationship that we'd had so far clearly decided to extend that out further and we went forward on the cleaning. Cleaning division. Tell me about that. Let's.

Yeah, yeah, well I guess once that was, once that was approached from head office to us in relation to I guess taking this, this further forward. I guess it was just a discussion that we, we needed to have as a family and where we wanted to, to really I guess proceed with our business or where the future lied for myself, Shane and Kelly for say the next 10, 15, 20 years. So it was once we sort of got our head around what, what, what it meant. It was really with our prior dealings with the local guys through the test and tag and how we've built up the, the test and tag franchise. It was really a no brainer because we, we trusted the obviously the local guys is, is a big key for us and, and we know that we can build a successful partnership and relationship with them. So once we sort of got, got ahead around of what that meant it was sort of nice sort of looking back and we sort of jumped at the opportunity to really I guess build that partnership further with the local guys going forward on, on a, on, on the cleaning front which was great. So. And then yeah, we've sort of hit the ground running basically from there.

Yeah yeah. I Know, we've got some guys are going along and doing some fantastic numbers. We've got a bunch more, more guys that are in the process of, of coming on board. So yeah, no, it's a very exciting space within the, within the, the business. Yeah. So no, we're, we're really excited to watch that division continue to grow. And it's, I think I was only getting feedback from one of your cleaning guys yesterday saying how much they've applied appreciated and how much you've helped them in their business and help them succeed. And I know that they've, they've been doing some fantastic numbers. So yeah, no, we're, we're really excited to, to watch that, that growth of that, that division. So. Yeah, no, that's great. I wanted to ask you what, what are some of the things that you look for in when you're onboarding a new franchise partner? What do you think makes a strong franchise partner? What do you think some of the, I'm just looking for little bits of advice maybe. I know I asked Sean and Renee the same thing in pest control. What do you think some of the things that you wish you knew maybe or you could part on some of the other franchisees that have come on that things that you're looking for a little bit tips or tricks that you could give them in regards to the onboarding process of starting their new business and things that would help to make them more successful.

Yep. Well, I guess what makes a good franchise partner or person in business or any business I suppose in general is I guess the person coming in is having the passion and the drive to want to be a small business owner. And that really sort of flows through talking to them. It's not just a person looking to, you know, they hate their job or they just want to get out of their job and buy into a business, but they don't have the passion or the drive to be a small business owner. So I think, I think that's, I think that's key for anything is having that drive and a passion and that really flows through talking to people because you can learn skills, you can go and get your test and tie course, you can learn product knowledge and everything like that, but you can't teach people to have the drive and the passengers passion to be a small business owner. And the rewards of small businesses is better than anything. It's the rewards of building a business and seeing the growth of it is great. But there is times where, you know, like I think there's ups and downs, but having the drive and the passion really sets you up to for success. And that's what, I guess that's what I sort of look for is making sure that A, they've got that passion behind them. And then I, I guess the biggest tip for me is when, when you're in business or when they've just been in business is, is surrounding yourself with good people like being in business, assuming that you can't be good at everything. You know, you've got so many things to worry about when you're in business. You got to do. If you're in a test and tag business, you've got to do your tests and tag, you got to do your book work, you got to do all the other bits and pieces marketing. But I think having good people around, around you is paramount to any business. And that, that's things like having a good account, having a good banker, having a good solicitor, having a business advisor because you can't know everything. But if you got people that you can use as a sounding board, I think that really does help you in, in your journey of building your business up as well. So that's probably the biggest key for me even when I first started out it was having those key people around me that I could, I could, they could part their knowledge on me because you don't know everything and then, but if you got the people around you, you know where to go. So they're probably couple of key things that I, what, what I look for and B is probably best piece of advice is surround yourself with good people. When you are in business, especially when you're starting out.

How do you find the, and the emotional side? Because I feel like the emotional side is probably like 80 to 90% of the, you know, not only with the buying decision but then once you're in as well. I think that controlling your own mind and small business ownership can be very much a roller coaster. And I think that if you don't have control of that and you can't think long term, it can be very scary because you can be spending money over here and you can be doing things over here and you know, you might have like this expense and that expense and all the rest of it and it might be two weeks or three weeks or a month or even 90 days before you're getting paid for things. And that can feel very strange for someone who's received a wage every week. And it's consistent. I know every week I'm going to get paid and my tax has been taken out for me and I don't need to worry about any of those aspects of it into. I have to control all of this. How, how do you feel like and what do you have any tips of potentially what people can do to who might be at that really early stage? And they are scared because fear is always a big thing. If you might be giving up a job where you've got guaranteed income every week to, to now, you know, this, this thing and they're putting a lot of that faith into you, especially as it's visual, you know, like they, you're the human contact and they're just going, here's all my trust. And it's going over to you. How does, how do you sort of, what do you advice, do you give people to that or what suggestions or how do you help with that situation or what are you doing?

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's something that, it's something that at some stage everyone, I think everyone, everyone does go through that at some stage. So throughout their journey in their business, especially when they're starting out and the biggest thing that I, I talk to and, and again I, I use, I use the franchise system as a, as to an advantage because we're in a franchise system now where we have, you know, I think we're over 30 franchises across the board. So there are proven systems and proven steps in place.

Getting close to 40.

40. Yeah. So, so there's proven systems in place that anyone coming in will have those doubts at some stage or the marketing's not working. I'm, I'm doing cold calls. They're not working. But, but we, we have systems in place where I've had 40 people that have gone through before have followed the processes and the systems that we have implemented and they've all come through the other side and, and I think giving them comfort around that and even encouraging people. We're in a franchise system. We're all in this together. You know, you're not on your own. Talk to other franchise partners, buddy up with other people, ask for people's. And it comes back to those advisors again within the franchise system is really talk through people because I think they're people that have gone through it and experience that everyone tells me and I'll. I always ask people within our own franchise system that you stick to the processes and, and you do come through the other side because the irrational thinking can get the best of you sometimes when so, so I, I think that that really helps the things like the scorecards as well. I think really help now as well, because me having the finance background and being, you know, I guess a little bit more on the analytics, analytical side of things, I think sometimes looking at the numbers can really help you as well, because you may not know that you might be doing better than what you think, you know, because you're. The irrational thoughts are sticking in. So I think having the data that we are now providing to our franchises each month really gives them a clear indication of where they're heading, but also gives them a clear indication of if there's areas that they need to work on as well. So it's not just a matter of blindly sort of going through the process and sort of picking and choosing that they can actually really be strategic and say, right, I need to work on my conversions or whatever it may be, they can really focus on that because the data is showing, this is where they're at. So it does give them all the tools necessary if they do need to work on an area that can really work on that as well. So I think giving them as much information, as much reassurance in the process as possible, and then as much data as possible to show, hey, this is where you're at, this is where you're heading. And, and, and, and if we do need to fix some things, this is where we can concentrate on and really having a, really having a plan of attack to say, okay, right, these are our goals, 1, 2, 3. But these are the strategies on how we're going to achieve the opportunity, those goals. And I think that really puts a framework around that so that they can work towards something.

Yep, I couldn't agree more. I think that I know we had one franchise partner that we'd been trying to push so hard with conversion rates for so long and is sitting at 25% conversion rates. And we're just constantly trying to push him on conversion rates. And it wasn't until we shared the leaderboard on conversion rates each month and then realized, oh, I'm miles off the rest of the pack here, what's going on? And then because we've got a directory and all the franchise partners can contact each other through the directory and then a couple of phone calls around, sort of saying, what are you doing over here? What are you doing? Why am I so low? And I think within like a month, we saw, just by putting out that leaderboard and then him tapping into the rest of the network and some of the people that he knew through training and all the rest of was like, oh, okay. And we saw a jump from like 25% to 65%, like, within the span of four weeks, which was just incredible because, as you know, you change that conversion rate and all of a sudden, what the business looks like in 12 months, three years, five years, is like hundreds of thousands of dollars different. So, yeah, it was. It was such a. Incredible change. And as you say, that's such the power in franchising. So. Yeah, no. Well, I think on that note, Damien, thank you so much for sticking with me for an hour. Much appreciated. I think that you've given everyone who. Who might be looking at the local guys or franchising in general or just wanting to find out a little bit more, I think it gives a little bit of a snapshot shot in regards to a bit about us and a bit about yourself and. And the test and tag and the cleaning divisions. So, yeah, thank you so much for. For spending the time with me. I really appreciate it and I know people will get value out of it. So, yeah, no, much, much, much appreciated.

No worries. Thank you for having me.