How to win HIGH PAYING CLIENTS with Melinda Livsey

Hey guys, I got a real cool special guest today, Melinda.

Woohoo. Hey.

May have seen her from the Future on the YouTube channel, which is pretty cool. She's a designer and she's all the way from California. But yeah, she's an awesome designer and brand strategist and she's been working in the industry for many years now and she's just dominating and doing really well. And she's also teaching what she knows to other designers and I'm privileged to have her on today. And we're going to be talking about design, so why don't you say hello, Melinda.

Hey guys, how are you? Thanks for having me on, Jeremy.

No worries. Pleasure to have you on. So why don't you share a bit about your journey? How did you start in design and how did you get into it?

Yeah, so I studied design and illustration in college and I had always grown up artistic drawing. I didn't really know what design was until about midway through my college career and I found out and I think it was through my first typography class and I learned that people actually designed typography. It didn't just appear because it was something I never thought about, but when I learned that people actually painstakingly design typography, I was totally enamored with it. I switched my major, added graphic design and so that started my career in graphic design. I learned that design was problem solving and problem solving through visual means and that again because I was more coming from the artistic side and drawing and illustration that really hooked me in with the problem solving. And then out of college I got a job at Oakley, full time job. I went from intern to freelancer full time and learned a ton there and then had always freelanced on the side. And then eventually I ended up on my own in aslm.

Wow, that's awesome. Was it like a big leap jumping from like that full time job to like freelancing? Like how was that process? Were you like a bit scared or like how was it for you?

Yeah, so the first, I went off on my own a couple times. So one I got kind of restless about few years into my full time job and I was just thinking I want, I want to explore more, I want to try different things. I don't want to just design for one company because that's a problem when you're in house, that you're just designing for one type of product, one type of company. A lot of the stuff is the same and I just wanted some variation to know what's out there. So I Quit completely to freelance. But I was still young and I was living in my parents house and they were like, do whatever you want because they knew that I wasn't just gonna sit on the couch at home not doing anything. And I then I just picked up some freelance jobs and it was a lot through people that already knew me, A lot of people knew me from that job. And so that then I was freelancing back at that company in different departments. And the fact that people knew what I was doing and knew that I was a freelancer really helped out. And so I had a lot of clients just from people who knew me, a lot of referrals. I didn't do any marketing at that time. So I was early 20s. This was what, like eight years ago maybe, and eight to 10 years ago. And yeah, I just went off on my own and it was all through my network that I got all the jobs. And so that was the first time. Then because of that, I got roped back in in a freelance job in the same company in Oakley. And they ended up hiring me in the branding department. So I was a part of a group of people, a small team of about four of us, and we worked on special projects, branding. We did a lot of the product graphics in store displays, outer facades of the stores, packaging, logos, all of the branding stuff. And then they ended up dissolving that department. So. So most all of the designers got laid off. And so I got laid off. But then I was thinking, okay, I've always wanted to be off on my own and I wanted to stay freelance. And I figured, well, this is a, you know, what better time than right now that I got laid off, so I'm going to make it work. So that was the second time around that, yeah, that I went off on my own.

Wow, that's so interesting. That's so cool. It's funny how like you ended up going back there and like working there. Like I find, yeah, it can be a bit boring when you're working in house. But like everyone always says, oh, like work in an agency or work somewhere like stable for like a couple of years so you get experience. But like, I know for me, like I did do a couple internships and then like my creative director at the time was like, yeah, go work somewhere. But I was like, like I thought like, man, do I really need to like do that? Like, I feel like I already got that initial experience. And you learn way quicker when you just jump out into the freelance world. And especially good if you're living with Your parents, because you have that opportunity and advantage to stay there and not pay rent and stuff, so you can figure out what exactly you want to do. So I think that's really cool. So how did you initially start getting clients and stuff? Did you have a portfolio? Obviously you worked for Oakley, so you didn't really have a lot of projects to show. So how did you initially start building that up?

Yeah, so when I first. I first started getting freelance clients right before I graduated, even before I got that internship and job at Oakley. And one of them was a website for my aunt, and it was for her business that she had, and she heard that I was learning how to do websites. But, hey, so how about for your class project, you use my business as. As the subject so that I can have a website out of it and then you can have your class project? I think she probably paid me as well. And so that was one of the first projects I did. I think that was paid. And so. But just by people knowing that I was a designer really helped. And then I did have a portfolio. So coming out of school, I did have a very basic online portfolio. I probably used Cargo Collective for it. Like, it was great. And it just literally had my work on it. It had maybe two sentences about me and then my email address if people wanted to reach out, which usually never was. It wasn't used as marketing because I didn't even know how to market. It was more so for people who heard I was a designer. And then I would send them the portfolio. So it was all student work. So I started off with all student work as I did. As I worked at Oakley, I did put that stuff in my portfolio. And that also helped get, you know, freelance clients. But again, it was all. It's all networking at the beginning. Every single one of my clients, and usually it was maybe not someone who knew me directly, but they were referred to me from a family member, from a friend. And so it's just the knowledge. Just the knowledge that, oh, there's a designer that everybody needs at some point, a designer. And so I would get calls, you know, randomly from people or other friends who were freelancing and needed some extra help. So I would connect with them to other schoolmates.

That's awesome. So, like, it looks like you got heaps of work from, like, parents and friends and stuff. I know, like, some people say, oh, like, it's not good to work with family and friends, which is. I sort of agree with that because I know the pain of working with them, especially if you're not getting paid. Like, you know, you feel like your work's not valued and yet, like, I'm doing a logo for my mom at the moment and I can tell, like, you know, I'm just like, okay, this time. No, not heaps of changes. Just keep it simple. Alright. But yeah, it can be a bit challenging. But yeah, like, do you find that. Do they value like design? Did they see that what you're doing, like, was professional or was it more like that? Thought it was like, oh, you're just doing it as a hobby and stuff? Like, do you feel like that made a difference that not like I want to do this professionally.

I think that I never, I mean, I've, you know, I've had the clients that didn't necessarily value what I did or wanted to pay low prices. But in general role, I believe that they did see me. Most of my clients have seen me as an expert at design. Maybe they, you know, wouldn't be willing to pay a ton for it earlier on. But it was also because of how I presented myself. So if I, when I went out to get work or I talked to clients and I believed in myself and I was confident and I was confident enough to talk about price and I was confident enough about not going down in price and not discounting my work, that it was how I handled myself in the type of response I got from someone else. So I could imagine that if I was really. And I've had times where I've been really insecure about something and I was desperate for the job, I would lower my rate. And then I could tell that the client didn't really value me. And so it does happen, totally happens. But it was all because of this energy and like my view of myself and it really made a difference in how people saw me was I first had to see myself as an expert. And if until then, then it's gonna be really hard for someone if you don't believe in yourself, why would anyone else?

Yeah, that was big. Yeah, 100%. It all comes down to mindset. I know a lot of people, especially like people in the creative fields, a lot of them call themselves introverts or they get imposter syndrome or whatever and they're not confident in themselves. But I believe anything is possible. So when you set your mind to it and you believe in your heart and you take the action to do it, then it can manifest and come to pass. You just got to put that effort in and set your mind that you can actually do it. Because I think a Lot of things are limiting beliefs. And I know a lot of people online, and even Chris Doe talks about mindset as well, and it's a really big thing. So you started freelancing. You started getting some of these smaller clients. So I know you sort of made the shift, like, you grow out of design and you started going into strategy and stuff. So what are you doing now? Differently than back then? Yeah. You said you had a bit of a network. You had friends and family. So, like, how are you getting clients now? And, like, what's the major difference?

Yeah, there's some really big differences now. I'm actually trying, like, I'm actually putting effort into marketing and maybe not direct marketing to clients, because I do serve a lot of designers now, and I love teaching what I learn with my clients and all that. I love turning around and then teaching designers how to also do it. And so I just have a natural inclination to teach. So even just teaching other designers, I also get clients. So the fact that I'm out there in the public eye on social media, sharing my process, sharing what I do, talking about it, that's always been, like, that's been something I've done, you know, from the beginning is just talking about what I do because I love what I do.

Yeah.

And so it's really helped to just, like, talk to people and then ask the questions that a brand strategist would ask, like, you know, what are your goals? And what do you. What problems are you having? Getting to your goals and just opening up those conversations with people. That has been probably the biggest thing that's helped because then they go, well, oh, you get my problem. Can you help me? And that's me. Being intentional with my conversations has probably been the number one thing that I do. So I do put out a lot of content online that really helps. Just getting known for what I do. That. And even if. Because a lot of people say, like, well, I don't want to. A lot of designers, they'll say, well, I don't want to attract other designers because that's all I'm going to get. Like, okay, okay, I get it. But if you're attracting anybody, be thankful, number one, and serve that community. And two, people, like, I've noticed that clients will look at me and they're like, oh, you've been on a podcast. Oh, you've been on. You're talking to your community, and your community respects you. You must be good at what you do. So it's this idea of just be valuable, give value to whoever it Honestly, doesn't matter. Like, if anyone sees you as valuable, good and lean into that, give them more value because you can always pivot. Like, I went from a designer to brand strategist, still doing some design, but really focusing on brand strategy. I could pivot again to something else. I'm pivoting more to teaching, but it doesn't mean that I can't still serve other people. And I think that some, I know that myself, I was always like, well, I have to just attract this type of client or I have to just attract clients instead of designers. It's like attract anyone that will listen to you and that wants what you have and then pivot later. But at least get known for something and then switch it up later. But that's my strategy right now. And I try to give a lot of value in blogs, on videos, on podcasts. I'm still working on just getting organized enough to produce enough content and write enough. And so I put out newsletters. I do a lot of writing.

Yeah, that's amazing. It's so good that you're giving content. I like what you said there. Like, it's having those open conversations and just give value to whoever. Like, if you're just starting out, like, it's just about like giving that value and like building yourself up. You know, whether it be portfolio, whether it be content and doing all these things is marketing yourself and building a personal brand. And I think it's so important to actually do that to attract clients and attract people that value designer and see you as a designer. But yeah, that's really interesting to see how you're doing that. And I remember, I learned from Sean west you said something similar like when you, you can always pivot. And yeah, he used to say, like, you can always specialize in niche down, but it doesn't have to be forever. You can always change down the road so your path doesn't have to just look like this for the rest of your life. You can always shift it and move it and go in a different direction, which is totally cool. And I agree with that. It is true. You don't have to just do graphic design or print design or just websites. You can do other stuff, which I find is super useful.

Yeah.

What are you going to say something?

Yeah, I was going to say that I am a fan of Sean west too. And I remember him talking about that. And I was thinking too, if I were to go back and tell my early self what was starting out in freelancing, what to do, I would tell her just Make a ton of money at the beginning, take on anything and everything, learn, screw up, fail. It's fine. Like I was very timid on taking on certain things or oh, I don't think I want to work with that person and just really picky. Just go out there and make a lot because then if you are able to pay your bills, you can buy yourself a Runway and you can choose what niche you want to go into. You can choose what you want to specialize in. You have the time to do it. Where I have been more of like the risk taker. That's like cool. So how am I going to pay for rent next? And I will have to be very creative in how I actually land that, which for me it's okay because it really pushes me to be creative. I know that's not for everyone, so it's best to have more of the buffer. But if for me it's like, come on, you got to act, you got to put things into practice. And so it's been good. But I don't think everyone works that way.

Yeah, you have to take a risk at some point, like to go to grow that extra mile. Like all the books I've read, it's all about being bold, taking risks. If you don't step out, you can't see what's the opportunities ahead. Everything lies over the fence. But not everyone's willing to do that. You know what I mean? That's why I always say like to people like stay as long as with your parents as you can. So you have that time and space. So you don't, you're not paying rent and stuff. So just like doesn't matter, you know, until you get married or whatever and move out, then that's cool. But yeah, totally agree with you on that. It's so key. So like, what's, what do you think one of the key ways of like getting bigger clients. I know, like obviously you build a portfolio up and so now what if you want to actually start making more money and maybe you actually have money coming in, like, what's one way of actually hooking in those big clients and making more income?

Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? What I've noticed in my own career and what I would suggest to other people is this is one of the hardest things that I had to learn was getting my eyes off of the solution, which in our case as designers, solutions are logos, brand ident, how the brand looks, how it's so beautiful, getting our focus off of that and Actually focusing on what was the client's goal, business goal. Not just they wanted a cohesive brand. Okay, but why did they want a cohesive brand? What was that going to do for their business? How were they going to measure success? That was huge. So shifting from the solution focus and deliverable focus to what is the goal of the client, what was the return on investment? So what kind of results were we looking for? I never ever even thought about those things. I didn't think about asking those questions. I just thought like, you just need a logo. Well, this is how it looks and look how pretty it is and look at the color and look at these brands. And that's how my portfolio was and still is to an extent. But I don't use my portfolio necessarily as the thing that lands clients. Like I use the conversations I have now with them. Yeah, they're way more valuable now. But I used to put so much value in the work that I did versus what did it actually do for the client? What did it do for their business? When I started learning that I could charge, really the sky is the limit because now the value is not attached to me or the deliverable. The value of the project is directly attached to the goal or the outcome that the client is looking for. So if what I produce, if they think, well, if whatever you do, it's actually going to bring in a million dollars of revenue, great, then them investing 10% of that makes sense. Right? Because if they believe that the return is going to be a million dollars, then you charging 100,000 makes sense. So not that I've charged 100,000 yet, but you get the drift. Like you get the idea that we're focusing more on their outcome, how they measure success, what that looks like in business terms. Learn about business, get to know that. Because that's been, that's the way to get higher paying clients, is stop focusing on our work, stop focusing on ourselves and focus on what it does, what the value is for the client.

That's right. It's all about the result and the outcome, which is totally true. And sometimes it can be hard to like shift from like, oh yeah, like I just did logos and just do this to having that business mindset. I think it's so crucial. But like, how do you like quantify that end goal or end result? Like how do you measure that? Do you have a way of actually doing that?

So I do now and it took me forever to know the questions to ask to even get that. Because especially with branding, like websites are different. Marketing is different social media is different. Branding affects everything.

Yeah, it's true.

So it's like, well, what are we gonna. What are we gonna measure? So I. I have been learning to ask that in the sales conversation. So when someone's gonna. Going to hire me, I end up asking them a series of questions. But one of them that I end with is, how are we going to measure success? And they'll usually give me something that it could be emotional, it could be like, well, our team will be better, whatever, or will be recognized, will be memorable. And so then I will then ask questions with, well, how are we actually going to measure that? How will we know that you're going to be remembered by your audience? How will we know that you're going to increase brand recognition? Can we get more specific on how we could actually measure that? And I will ask those questions until I can get them to get close to a quantifiable number. So I want a number of something. I want something like, we're gonna raise our YouTube subscribers by 50%. We're gonna. We want our. Our sales, our revenue, our annual revenue to double. We want, like, give me some. Because we have to know, like, what are you currently tracking in your business? And what metrics do we. Are we hoping that this is going to influence or what? You know, you're asking me to redo the branding, but what are you. What metrics are you expecting it's going to shift in your business? If they're not already tracking their metrics, that might be a red flag.

Yeah.

And that's a thing that I never knew. Right. So I was working with a ton of startups and a ton of people that just wanted to start their business, and they weren't business people just yet. They were learning, which is fine. As I learned that, I'm thinking, well, if you're not measuring anything, how do you even know you have a good business? How do you know that you're not spending too much and expenses versus how much revenue you're bringing in? Like, how do you know it's actually running well? Yeah, you don't. It's kind of like never measuring your oil in your car or your gas. Like, how you can't. You can't run like that. Like, you have to know.

Yeah, definitely.

So, yeah, so I actually try. It's kind of hard sometimes because you don't get very specific things, but I really try to get as close to something that we can, like, look at three, six months later and say, hey, are we even close? Like, look at Our numbers. Are we close to what we said we would? We wanted this to impact revenue, we wanted this to impact awareness.

Yeah.

Did the numbers change? So I try to get quantifiable numbers.

Yeah, it's hard.

I don't want to say that it's like an easy thing to get because It's.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Wow, that was so insightful. Yeah, I can see it definitely is a challenge. Especially if your client like doesn't have any clue about that or like Google Analytics or like any of the back end stuff. Yeah, I find that a lot of small like businesses wouldn't be really doing that even like probably they probably know about SEO and all those things but at the end of the day, like, yeah, they need someone to tell them and it's good to have that knowledge of that area as well. It's 100% key. So we've talked a little about a bit about like, you know, how to get clients but like how did, how would you retain a client? So like, yeah, we spoke about getting these bigger clients but what if you wanted to like have a long term relationship? How do you like sustain that throughout, like maybe three months, six months or over the year and like have continuous work? Like what would you do?

Yeah, I, well for me I've niched down to just brand strategy, brand identity, messaging, then ongoing brand consultancy. So like if they want, usually this is what happens with me. So I don't want to implement everything. We might come up with some marketing, rough marketing plans, we might even come up with some ideas about websites. I don't do websites. So I actually end up handing off my projects to a web designer or whoever else they need, connecting them with copywriters, social media people, email marketers and then when they go to that next step. So after we've done the brand strategy, we've done the brand identity, they're going to implement everything, they're going to do their website marketing, whatever. Then usually what happens is they will hire me as a brand consultant or creative director to make sure that the brand is, it's on brand, everything's on brand. And I proposed that to them at the end I said because they're by that time they're invested in the relationship that we've created. Created in what? In my vision too, that I understand their company, I know where they're going, we've created this brand identity together and strategy. So they're like, well, you know, everything. So how about you come in and you train people or you be the creative director, You Be the brand consultant that make sure that everything's on point. So that's usually the relationship I have going forward and throughout the year. And it could go on for years because they're constantly checking in. We're also revisiting strategies because the strategy only can get you so far, because a lot of it's a hypothesis, we think it's going to work. Then we have to check the metrics. We have to make sure that it's on point. And sometimes we have to pivot. A lot of times we have to pivot. You know, it's not ever going to stay just the same strategy. So the clients will come to me a year later and they'll say, hey, you know, we've tried this out. We've learned that our ideal client is actually different than the one that we pose in the beginning. And so then they'll come to me and work out. Sometimes I do retainers where they, they purchase just consulting hours with me.

Okay.

So they have so much time or I've done it depending on what their needs are. I've had some different kinds of. But they're more so consulting retainers that they do purchase consulting hours. For me, that's the only time I would do charging hourly is consulting.

Wow, that's so cool. Yeah, it's like, because I can the web world, I see a lot of web designers, they'll pay for like doing like a monthly service or whatever where they do like checkups now, update plugins and update things. So a lot of people use that as like a retainer to keep getting consistent income and work from that. But yeah, that's really useful. Like to. Yeah, having having consulting there as another way of generating. But also you're still helping the them with their brand because I find like, when even if it's a smaller client, like, yeah, you hand off the identity and everything to them. But then a lot of the times they don't know how to use it. So you're at the start, you end up like having to educate or teach them and give them like PDFs and documents on how to like actually use it. But then sometimes it may get a bit like fuzzy or lost down the road. So it's 100% really useful, like to have talk with them and have that consulting so you can make sure that it's all like on point and flowing really well for them, which is key. RS I have another question. Like, do you. So if, if someone's just starting out and you know, they're just putting a portfolio and maybe they're not getting that many clients, they're getting just one or two, and they don't have much to show. Do you think it's okay to actually work with, like, do a fake project? I know I've seen on your portfolio or your site Marks and Makers, which is super cool, and you've done a project on there which looks really cool. Like, maybe talk about that. Like, it's actually effective doing fake projects. Like, what's your view on it?

Yeah, I 100% believe in fake projects. I actually like calling them concept projects. Just because when you say fake, it, like, cheapens it, I guess. When I put it on my portfolio, I propose it as it is like a client project. So I don't go. And sometimes I'll say it depends on where I'm posting it, that it's a concept project. I don't mind saying that because it's still showcases my ability. So, yeah, if you don't have a portfolio or you're not getting the right type of clients or the aesthetic, you're not valuing design very well. Or if the things you've created, you just do not like, which I've done in my life. So it's okay. Create things that you do. Create the companies that you wish would hire you, the types of companies, because that will attract similar companies like that. And I've had so many people contact me because they saw that project and it's not. It's just a concept project. They contacted me because they see my ability, I'm able to do that, and they want something like that. And then I'm also. I also love collaborating with other creatives and coming up with prototypes of things. Or like we did the Cat Hater survival kit and created that.

I love that.

Thank you. And created that whole brand too. And that is a prototype and that potentially could be a business. So all of these. Although they're concepts, it's.

Yeah.

They still are potential businesses. And if I could invest in creating it or someone else could, but it's still a viable idea. So, yes, I 100% believe in fake concept projects, however you want to call it. But yeah, even if your whole portfolio is concept projects, it's fine because it will get you, you know, attracting a certain type of client.

Yeah, 100% now, that's awesome. I like how you call it concept project. That's such a better word. I was always figuring out, like, how should I say it? But yeah, I really like that. And I especially love you, like, yeah, the cat. The cat Kit thing that was so really cool. And on behance, like you got featured and stuff, which is super awesome and I love that. So that's so cool. Is there anything else like that you wanted to discuss? Like, obviously there's one major question that I'll ask at the end, but is there anything else that you felt like as a young designer they should start doing now or implementing in their business?

Oh, man. If I think back at all the things I would tell myself when I first started out, first was make a lot of money. The second would be learn about business. And I know I had mentioned this in our talk, but start learning about how businesses work. And I like starting other kinds of businesses on the side. And so it's been great for me because I've actually learned through experience business and marketing. You can understand marketing and how to use marketing to promote yourself. I think that was one thing I wish I would have learned. I wish I would have designed my. My site not like a portfolio like I was trying to get a job, but more so as a consultancy, as someone who could solve problems and give results. And I wish that I would have known how to market myself early on because I think I would have been a lot farther. So business and marketing.

And I know for me that I read a bit of Seth Godin and other entrepreneur books. Like, what do you think people should read certain books. Like, what's some books that they can read, you think?

Yes. Yeah, definitely. Designing Brand Identity. I think it's by Alina Wheeler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that one. Very, very good. Very comprehensive. There's Creative Strategy in the Business of Design is another good one. 101 Things I Learned in Business school.

Yeah, yeah.

Like you had mentioned anything by Seth Godin on marketing Storybrand by Donald Miller.

Yeah, Great book.

Fabian Guyhalter, he has two books on branding and brand strategy. I would definitely recommend him. And then I did just get the book id, so I think it's Brand Identity.

Yeah, I finished reading that. It's really good. Gives a lot of tips in there and like shows their projects they've done. Really cool.

Yeah. And then there was another one. If you're wanting to grow more as a designer and getting clients and maybe even building into a studio, there's a book by Eli Altman called Run Studio Run. So it's just an overview of how all of how a studio runs. So between getting leads and marketing and running the internal portion of the studio, studio billing clients and all of that, it's a really good overview of it. So I would recommend that book too.

Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing those resources. Like super cool. Super cool. All right, one last question. If you were 20 year old again, what would you tell your 20 year old self? It doesn't have to be about design, it can be just in life or anything in general. What would you tell your 20 year old self?

Oh geez. The only thing that oh this is a big. Well, hey, it's been, you know, a long time since I was 20. I would say to myself that you don't have to be perfect and it's not even attainable and so stop trying. Because I was definitely a perfectionist and I wouldn't try new things because I was worried I was going to fail. That I wish I would have failed more and I would have taken more risks early on and just had fun and tried and stopped trying to be perfect. Possible.

That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing and just thank you so much for having your time. Really appreciate it. Like such useful insights and I think a lot of designers can actually learn from you. But yeah, that's so much good. Valuable nuggets to get. I'll quickly summarize a few good points that you mentioned which I find really useful. It's okay to work with family. I think it's really important to do marketing. Have those open conversations with every client. Be a value. If you're just starting out, always add value and be valuable to anyone and whoever. It's okay, you don't have to niche down right away, but you can just do a whole bunch of things. Make money, make that mullah and get as much experience as you can straight away because that's how you grow really fast and move forward. Learn about business and ask questions. Don't always just focus on the design and logos and branding, but really start learning about business and marketing and get that mindset and broaden your perspective. Learn how to actually measure success, whether it be a number or tracking, something like revenue or awareness or subscribers, something like that. Also to get retainers and things like that. It's also a good chance to maybe have a consulting with the client over time to help them manage the brand and manage their identity, which is really good. It's okay to do concept projects to build your portfolio up and make sure you're using the best mock ups and making it look really awesome. But also something that you want to get work in the future and attract those certain clients, which I think is really key. She said there's some good books there and you don't always have to be perfect. Just always enjoy the process. Always have an open and learning mindset and don't always be a perfectionist. Just take action and always just be creating something awesome. Thank you so much, Melinda. So where could people find you? I know you're starting a new YouTube series, which is pretty cool and some other things. So, yeah, share. Where can people find you online?

Yeah, a lot of places. So first the new channel is Studio Grind on YouTube. We will be talking about everything from graphic design and strategy and running a studio. So that's that. You can also find me on the Future. So I'm a co host on the Future. And then also Melinda Livesey on Instagram, Twitter, melindalivesy, underscore, I believe, and Facebook. I'm on there. And then Marks and maker is if you want to become a brand strategist and learn how to become a branding expert, a lot of stuff that we've been talking about today, go there. And then for people who are just starting out and wanting to learn how to freelance, like the first stuff, you know, how do you send an invoice and a contract and a proposal how to start freelancing? That's on prelance. So pre lance.com and you can learn how to freelance there.

Yeah. Cool. I'll put all your links in description so people can find you.

Thank you.

So awesome. Well, thanks so much, Belinda, for coming on. It's been a pleasure. It's been super cool. And yeah, I look forward to that new series that you're launching and I'll be always watching you.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

All right, see ya.

Bye.