Couple Talk with Jess & Wilke (EP. 6)

¡1, 2, 3, 4! Hi everybody and welcome to this week's edition of The Way Through Podcast. I'm Keith McPherson, one of the coaches on The Way Through Podcast platform, and I'm very excited about today's episode because we are going to go in deep what it means to be in conscious relationship with each other. Um, Jess Hendrick, who happens to be one of the coaches on the Way Through platform, is going to join us, and she has recently found hopefully the love of her life. Um, so we're going to invite in a special guest today. Uh, Wilk Itson, who's, uh, Jess's new partner, has courageously agreed to be here on the podcast, and, uh, we're going to talk what all about what it's like to be in a brand new relationship and also the, the work that they've done to find each other and what it means to move into conscious relationship with each other. So for those of you that are listening that are currently in the in-between stage where you, you know, maybe you recently broke up with your partner and you're like, now what? I'm hoping that this episode will give you some encouragement, some hope, and also some deeper understanding of what it means to move into a brand new relationship if you are single. And even if you're not single and you're in a relationship, uh, today's episode might also give you some insights on how to be in conscious relationship with your partner. So, uh, with that all being said, welcome you guys to the podcast.

Thank you.

You're so courageous to jump on and be part of this, and in my opinion, so brave.

Totally. No, it's great.

Yeah, I'd love just for, uh, the audience listening, um, to hear a little bit about your background, Wilk, just because many of you that listen probably know Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach and part of our platform. But Wilk, I'd love to hear just your background.

And yeah, yeah, sure. There's a lot in the background of my life. Basically how I ended up where I am now. I had a career as an actor. My dad was an actor. After my dad passed away, I kind of hung that up. And I had already started to pivot into real estate just because it seemed to be an easy transition. As an actor, you're very connected and empathetic and kind of understand what people like, what people really want just by connecting with them. And so it, it worked. And in that process, and after my dad died, I had gone through a lot of experiences of grief and relationships. And I started to help other men work on themselves. I had started to do men's work, so kind of in the vein of like David Deida and John Wineland. And I had a coach and a mentor in that world. And I'd been doing that for a while, and then I started to host my own men's groups and retreats and got really involved in basically my curiosity and understanding the relationship between men and women, between masculine and feminine, and really knowing what's in, what's within us to better understand that so that we can better understand each other. I started to work with that a lot and started to help people. And so now I'm kind of in the in-between of still doing real estate, but pivoting towards more of a career of like men's coaching. And also, there's, there's, I don't want to go all into it, but I'm starting a company in the wellness world, basically to help people kind of find themselves and, and work on this, this, this relating stuff that a lot of people really don't understand.

Yeah, this relating stuff is real, isn't it? Wow. It's so real. Thank you so much for being here, and, um, I really admire the work you do, uh, just in terms of the work you're doing, especially with, uh, men's groups. And we haven't really covered that much here in the Way Through podcast, but I I think there's a lot of work to be done there, and it's powerful and fierce work in order to prepare ourselves to be better partners in relationship. So I'm really excited that you and Jess have met. I'm just curious, and I'm sure the listeners are like, how did you guys meet? How did this all happen? How did you come together?

Do you want me to go? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Well, I think that for one thing, We— I'm positive we have crossed paths without knowing it over years because our circles are very close. Like, the— just the community that we're both in. Like, somehow we've just missed each other. Different events. I don't know what they are specifically, but I know that, like, she's in the same world I'm in, but somehow we just never saw each other. But, you know, I'm not a big fan of the algorithm and Facebook and all those things and dating apps. But I will thank Mark Zuckerberg for his, his people you may know algorithm popped up. There was Jess. I was like, oh, she's interesting. And we had mutual friends. I was like, she's, she's cute. All right. I don't know. I feel like I know her. I feel like I know her. So I added her and then really didn't think much of it. But right away she added me and messaged me.

Because he was cute. I was like, who's this cute person?

So it was physical attraction.

I mean, I don't, I don't, I can't speak for her. I don't think you can tell that from a picture. But I was like, he's kind of cute. I don't know. I get a lot of Facebook requests, but I don't, I don't accept them all.

So yeah, I would say, if we got into like the spiritual side of it, I was like, you know, maybe, maybe my soul knew, knew her before I did, right? Maybe, I don't know. Um, but, you know, I, I threw in a, a nice little joke in her. She's like, how do we know each other? I'm like, you know, I'm realizing we don't know each other, but, um, I saw that you were a therapist and I don't know, maybe, maybe my subconscious was saying you were cute or I need therapy. I'm not sure. Uh, nice.

And so I'm, I'm curious, like from you, Jess, like, um, because I imagine being on the dating apps or like, you know, online, you're bombarded with I've heard this, I mean, from the female perspective, you're bombarded with all sorts of choice. Is this, is this true? Is this just a myth?

I mean, I'm very specific about what I would want and what I was looking for. So I don't feel bombarded. I feel like there's not a lot of alignment. Like, like you could get a lot of messages from people, but really quickly you can tell that it's not aligned. Right. So it's not my favorite. Like I was on the apps and I was super specific and I had a profile that really weeded people out, I think. But, um, yeah, I don't feel like there's all this choice. I'm like, I feel like it's like a needle in a haystack situation where I don't even know if the apps really support us at all. I think there's like a rare instance where like sometimes you can come together with someone great, but for the most part, I think it's really a waste of our time and energy, honestly. Because it still, it still kind of speaks to that whole reaching outside of yourself to try to find something rather than becoming what it is that you want to attract within yourself. So, yeah, I don't love the apps.

Yeah, no, they definitely are like very contrived. But what I'm appreciating about you is, and knowing you for so long now, like you've done a lot of work to arrive back into a relationship. I mean, there was a long period of time where you were really curious about, you know, who am I and what do I— what am I actually looking for? And like doing a lot of assessment of like your previous relationships that didn't work out. So how did you know that like Wilk was somebody worth— I mean, besides him being very handsome and cute, like, how did you know that this was somebody you wanted to get to know?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I always love your questions. You have the best questions. Thanks. Yeah, that's a good question. So, I mean, initially I didn't know and I was just, I was, I'm committed to like creating what I want to create in partnership. But honestly, I was feeling super frustrated and like exhausted by the process. But I'll still, I would still put myself out there. And so we like got on a call and talked for a little bit. And I was in Aspen and I was kind of just like going through the motions of that, but he was super, super easy to talk to. And then I just felt this, like, pull to him, which was just weird. Like, I haven't really felt that before. And I was like, this is interesting.

Just like a pull.

Like, I wanted to keep talking to him. And then every time we talked, there was just so much alignment. It was insane. Like, what we've been through, we're both in, like, the same world of recovery. What he wants to create, what I want to create. Like, yeah, it was, it was just so, so much alignment that I was like, 'Can this even be possible?' Because I was trying to go for like 80% of what I wanted with this whole— like, like you said, I've been for years and years, like, every time a relationship didn't work out, I would like look at what was my part, what was like, what did I need to work on to heal, what are the qualities that I really need for something to possibly work out. So I just kept refining this vision over years and years and years. And like, he's literally like 95, maybe even higher than that, percent of all the things that I wrote down. It's bananas.

Wow. So interesting. It's really interesting early on when you feel that, that pull. I've only felt that once in a previous relationship, and you just kind of know. I'm curious, Wilk, did you have anything like that on your end, or what was going on when you first connected with Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach And Dating Coach?

For you?

Yeah.

You know, I didn't have like a specific list of like, I mean, I did and I didn't. Like, I just knew like the energy that I wanted to connect with in someone. And as we got to know each other, everything about her was like, oh, these are all the things that I've been looking for in different people. And I'm like, oh, there's a piece of that and a piece of that. And like, it's all in one. It's all, it was all in one. So it was, it was kismet. It was like this perfect concoction of everything that we were both looking for. I had gotten out of a relationship about 6 months before that was in contrast, just the exact opposite of, of everything that Jess is. And I was like, oh wait, this is possible. Like someone can— someone actually like thinks I'm funny and like just, just even just the smallest contrast where it really stood out. And yeah, I mean, I wanted to find someone that was perfectly in alignment with me, but I, you know, that's really like, is that possible? I mean, men and women are so very different in so many ways, but just having the same values and belief systems and like, and an open mind to everything that's, you know, we kind of have a question everything in the world. Perspective and that we align on that was, it was really exciting. And I felt this pull towards her. And I didn't understand why because I, you know, I was on the apps and I was talking to people, but I was just talking and there was no like, one person that I wanted to hang out with on in those connections, like at all. I just felt like I was going through the motions just because, like, you know, when you're single again, and you're kind of just like, alright, I should start dating just to kind of expose myself. But no one— I was just like, I was over everyone, you know? So I feel like I found a, yeah, diamond in the rough or a needle in the haystack kind of situation here.

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It's so exciting when you, like, meet your person. Like, it feels like this is my person. And I'm imagining— I mean, this has been pretty recently that you two met, so I'm imagining there's still like the honeymoon phase going on right now. I don't want to assume it, but I am guessing that's probably here.

Yeah, no, there is. But I think the difference is that, like, I don't know, I've dated so much and I've had so many different experiences and just like, it's been a really long road for me to work through a lot of the patterns that were keeping me in the same sort of cycles with like unavailable people. So yes, it's new and we don't know each other for that long, but like, I've never had this level of alignment with anybody. So it's just interesting and It just feels different. It just feels different. It's really hard to explain. Like, I didn't actually think this was possible, honestly.

Wow.

I didn't. And I don't know, we don't know what's going to happen, but like, it's crazy. Like, and we just, we can't, we literally just can't stop talking to each other. It's like we have to like focus on our lives because we're just like, want to talk to each other all the time. And I feel like we have like, like, I feel like I just have to catch him up on the last like, 40-plus years of my life. Like, I'm like, it's like our souls knew, know each other. And I'm like, all this stuff happened. Like, I want to tell you all these things in this that happened in this life, you know.

Wait, can we, can we talk about what my kid was saying?

Oh yeah, that was crazy.

Do you want to say it?

Yeah, I'll say a little and then maybe. So, well, I've been, I've been kind of just observing how kids lately, the kids that are coming to the planet more recently are really, really tuned in. And they say all kinds of crazy, it sounds like crazy things, but they're just really tuned into the spiritual realm. And yesterday we were jumping on the trampoline with his son and just like playing. And his son was like, you guys have known each other for many, many lifetimes. And he was saying all these things.

And he was like, and he doesn't talk like this. Like this. I mean, he's got a crazy imagination. And he's kind of wacky, like in how what he talks about, but he He was talking about things and I was like, she's like, did he overhear? And I was like, I haven't mentioned this.

Like, did he hear you? I was like, did he hear you talking about that? Like, cause we've talked about that. Like, it feels like we somehow know each other, our souls recognize each other or whatever. And he was like, no, I've never said anything like that in front of him. But he kept, he was like, yeah, 50 years ago you agreed that you were gonna, and he kept going on and on. And we were like, it was like 15,000 years ago you guys were pirates.

And then he got a little wild.

He was like, yeah.

She got decapitated. I was like, okay, okay, okay. He's going a little far.

He's going deep into it.

I was like, tell us more. Like, what else? What else? What else do you see?

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. And just even before that, like a few days ago, I sent Wilk this thing about all these kids just saying cool things like this. Like, oh, mom, like you and I were mother and daughter lifetime after lifetime. And this lifetime I'm the daughter, but the other lifetime you were the mother. Like things like that. Just the kids that are coming to the planet right now are really dialed in. So it's kind of crazy.

But yeah, I've heard that.

I mean, we know that it sounds crazy.

Yeah, if you believe in that stuff. I, and I'll tell you this, like 10 years ago, I mean, I was an incredible, I don't know, agnostic, very like, no, I'm not religious. I had been, but like, I knew there was something more to the universe or whatever. But I really just, there was nothing that was sticking for me. And I think over the last like, 5 or 6 years, I mean, I lost my dad and you go through kind of a grieving experience. You really get more in touch with like the bigger picture. And now I'm seeing like, it's, I'm just seeing patterns. I'm seeing like spiritual events are happening constantly. And even just like the way that we came together, I've never come together with anyone like that. You know, it just felt like even when there was a moment where she was scared.

Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know if you know, we can talk about that. Yeah.

I feel like we should.

Yeah.

Let's go.

In the very beginning. I mean, I also have a rule of like, the rule of 3 dates before any kind of intimacy.

Oh yeah. Yeah.

We, uh, we knocked that out in one day. We met for our first meeting was for breakfast.

So you met like 3 times in a day to knock out the rule?

We met for like a bagel or something and for like, just to like make, cause we were talking on the phone a lot, but we hadn't actually physically met. You know, for her, she was like, I don't know if you're like, if the energy is there, she's actually going to find me attractive, like all that stuff. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I'm not worried about it. But, but we met and then she was like, oh, that was great. Let's do it again. I was so excited to see her again. Later that day, we went for a walk and then later that night we went out to dinner. And so we kind of found a loophole to my 3 days of intimacy where we got a little bit closer and nothing. We just kissed at the end of the night. Nothing. But from there, it was like, oh, wow, that was really great. So let's see each other again the next day. And the next day she went and she got scared.

Yeah.

I mean, you can talk to your own stuff.

Well, yeah. So, okay. Because we, because I'm in a 12-step program, right? Like I'm very open about that with like healing from love addiction and like toxic relationship stuff. So I'm really careful because I know that I have a tendency towards certain things, right? Like I wouldn't suggest like developing a connection with someone via FaceTime or on the phone, like you should meet them as soon as possible. But he lives, he doesn't live in LA full time. Like he's, he lives in like outside of SF. So we couldn't meet. So we were talking and anyways, it was, it was, it was, I love talking to him, but I've had that experience before where I'll be talking to someone and I'll meet them in person and it's like not there.

Yeah, that's a great point.

So anyway, we met and it was just whatever we like, he was around where I was and we just, I was like wearing glasses and sweats and I was like, whatever, let's just meet. Let's just get this over with, you know. But, um, but then when we, and then we went for a walk, like we would, we took breaks in between. We didn't do this on purpose. It just kind of happened where it was like 3 in one day. But when we went out to dinner, I just felt really, really held by him, like energetically really held. And I was like, huh, I have not had this experience really before. Like, and so, yeah, we ended up like hanging out later that night. And then he said, okay, like, we could hang out the next day, blah, blah, blah. And so, but then when he came over the next day, I just went into a lot of fear, but I didn't even know that that's what it was. So, yeah, I just felt like really uneasy in my body when he came over. And I was like, oh, this is so uncomfortable. And I'm like, now I have to tell him that I'm feeling uneasy. And that's going to be uncomfortable and now it's going to be awkward and like all of these things. But I just, I just did because I've learned like that's what you got to do. You know, you just have to be honest.

Yeah.

So I was like, I just feel really uneasy and I don't know about this whole plan that we have right now. Like, it's not really feeling like the move. So he was like, okay, no problem. And he handled it really, really well, which was also like really— later I was really appreciative of that.

What's handling it really well? I'm just curious what that looks like.

Do you want to say how you do it?

Yeah.

I mean, Uh, I'm also very, um, sensitive, like empathic. I pick up on, if you're like mad at me, I can feel it.

Yeah.

If you're whatever, whatever it is, like I can just, I can feel it. And I was like, she's, she's going into like this avoidant state because I've been there because I have, we have the same thing. I've danced. I've been kind of more of the avoidant. And then I went into the anxious side when I went through a series of losses and I didn't, the abandonment stuff came up and all that. But I knew what this was and it wasn't like complicated for me. It was like, oh, I'm going to leave you alone. I like, and I said to her, I was like, you know, you'll figure this out. I got like, I'm, I'll be here when you're ready to talk to me. And I just let, and I left her alone.

Yeah. Which might be more of a secure state of attachment.

Yeah. And that's, I mean, getting to a secure state has been a lot of work for me. That's, you know, my last couple of relationships were a series of just being, abandoning myself, which then allows me to be abandoned by another. And the reality is no one can abandon you but you. But if you abandon yourself, then you will feel abandoned by everybody.

Right. Wow, that's powerful.

Yeah. And I went through that and I understood that like, hey, I've got me. So this wonderful person you know, if this is meant to be, they'll come back. I don't need to worry about it. And if it's not, then, you know, fine. I'll be sad that this didn't work out and move on. But I knew I kind of had this knowing. I was like, if I just leave her alone, I'm going to hear from her the next day. And lo and behold, she reached out to me the next day. I also said, I said before I left, I was like, all right, you got a little weird. I'm going to leave. Well, and you said to me, but I wasn't offended. Like, the thing is, men, The problem is that in a situation like this, and this is kind of what I work on with men, men have a lot of ego involved. And if your ego gets involved with how someone else is feeling in the moment, you just lost the connection. And if you're like, oh, you don't like me anymore.

And, uh, and like, you know, yeah, you self-internalize it.

Yeah. And it's like, I just was like, this isn't about me because what we, that beautiful little connection we had yesterday, that's just not going to go away. But now we have to process and deal with it. And maybe we went a little fast trying to hang out the next day because her and I are in the same program. And, you know, we, we want to move quickly. We want to get to the intimacy as quickly as possible.

No, safety.

The safety.

Yeah.

But the sa— within intimacy is safety. Yeah. And we want to get to that as quickly as possible. You skip a few steps and then you don't learn anything about the person, and then you all of a sudden find yourself kind of in a shitty situation.

This feels so complex. And I, I'm just thinking about the people listening to this right now. Because I'd love to slow this down a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, because— slow me down—

only because, because there's so much in what you guys are saying right now. Um, and if I just back up for a moment here, like love addiction, um, you're both in a 12-step program for that. And like love addiction, is this, is this related to a certain type of attachment style, or is this any attachment style? It can be love addicted.

Well, any, any attachment style can be, but like I would say The, the whole anxious avoidant thing, like attachment styles aren't, are not fixed. So you react opposite to whatever energy is opposite you. But they're both operating from the same wound, like fear of abandonment. So the anxious one like goes toward to try to maintain safety, to have connection for safety, and the avoidant pulls away to try to regulate, to feel safe. So, but the thing with this, which was helpful, is that he understood what was happening with me. So like I, for many, many years was anxious, anxious. I didn't even think I had any avoidant anything. But then as I started healing, I did sort of like swing into the more avoidant energy. And so what he said to me before he left that night was like, you're going to have to work this out with somebody, you know, like whether it's here or not, like you are going to have to work it out with someone. And that's really true. And what we can do is— what I realized that I was doing is like my internal emotional state was dictating my thinking where I felt really scared. So I was like, nope, this is probably not a thing. Like, this is not it. I'm going to just—

just shut it down and run away. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And then luckily, because I have all this support in place, like I have an amazing sponsor who's literally just a godsend. He was the biggest influence, honestly. The next day I talked to him about what happened and he was like, I think that you are just in a lot of fear because the level of alignment that's here you have not experienced before. And I was like, okay. So I just—

let me just check in with you on this. So from the avoidant sort of tendencies, there's like a lot of fear that comes up when things get too quick, too close, too quick. Like you're— the intimacy is becoming a real thing.

Yeah.

And I've been there with partners before. And then this is actually a typical pattern for me when I date. And then the pattern is it gets too, too close, too quick, and then the partner wants to just run for the hills. What I'm appreciating here is like you both kind of held the space and then you came back together to work on it. But for an avoidant, I'm just wondering, like, what is the, the fear underneath? Like, what was the fear for you going on? So abandonment, it was okay.

It's the same wound. They just present opposite in opposite ways, right? So it's really like the program that we're in is really for like intimacy issues, like fear of of intimacy and closeness because intimacy wasn't safe and intimacy was actually painful or closeness or love, like when we were kids.

So if I get—

so the belief is like, if I get too close to this person, they're gonna abandon me.

Yes.

Then I'm gonna be hurt.

Yes. But it's subconscious. So you do that.

Most people don't even know that that's what's going on.

Yeah.

They just feel weird and then they're like, oh yeah, I don't like them.

Yeah. Yeah.

But that's not even it. Cause then if they get enough space and if you don't chase them and they get enough space from it, they're like, oh wait, I miss— I actually like this person. I miss them. And they might come back. It just depends on the person. But that's the whole, like, you know, I'm sure, you know, like, there's these coaches out there, like, how to get your ex back. Yes, I see a lot of that. And it's like such a— I mean, I want to say it's a scam. It's not a scam, but it's manipulation. It's manipulation. And the reality is like, well, you want to get yourself back. But the minute you give that person— like, if they felt smothered or engulfed, or you were too much, or whatever it is, and they get that space from you, all of a sudden they're like, oh wait, I actually— they start to remember It's like the fading effect bias. Like they start to remember all the things that they didn't think of in the moment because they're overwhelmed by emotions.

Because you're not regulated.

Yeah.

But like the thing is, most people aren't even aware of this, right? Like it took me this long to actually know what was happening inside of myself to be like, oh shoot, this isn't actually about this person. Right. This is about my own nervous system and my capacity for closeness and intimacy. And so it takes, you know, this is why it's important to do the work because you can have all the desire in the world and this like wanting to have something healthy. But if you can't hold it because it hasn't been safe or whatever reason, then you're not going to experience it. Right. So that's like a big thing that I do with my clients is help them uncover the subconscious beliefs that are running the show because all of it's just protection. All of it's something that served you up until now. To keep you safe. So does that make sense?

It does. And so what I'm curious about is that you have this sort of aha because you've been doing this work for quite a while, and you're like, I'm actually in an avoidant pattern right now, and my partner is giving me a lot of space to be on my own now. How did you turn it around and come back? And then what did that conversation look like between you two?

Well, I think that also the good thing about us is that we just talked about all these things from the beginning. So, like, open communication, you know, even when I was super uncomfortable when he came over the next day, I was like, I just have to speak this. I have to tell the truth of what's happening, you know? And he said, like, if you hadn't been able to communicate so well, I don't know if this would have, like, gone anywhere because communication. Yeah, because it's hard, you know, it's hard, like, from his end where he's— I was all, like, into it the night before, and then the next day he comes over and I'm like, uh, like, that's hard to be with. And not take it personally, you know.

How did, how did you not take that personally?

Well, I think that when I got home that night, there was a moment of like, like I was kind of, I beat myself up a little bit around like, oh, I, we pushed this too quick. We jumped, we went to the next date really quick, didn't have time to integrate and actually like feel what that was, that nice connection that we had. We wanted to feel it right away because I mean, that's the love addict side too. That's the like, oh, I want to hit, I want that hit again, you know, whatever that is. But that's not— we need our systems needed to integrate. So I sat in that a little bit and then I was like, I didn't take it personally. I think because I've spent so much of my life taking it personally when something like that would happen. And then I reflected on how I've been that way where like I, you know, connected with someone and then I pushed them away because I was feeling uncomfortable or whatever it was. And I was like, but if I had just given myself that space, I would have come back. So like, I just needed to, like, I just kind of reflected on a lot of the work that I've done in my, my own history to kind of understand that this wasn't about me. And it's taken me a long time to get to a place where I don't take these things personally. But, you know, I'm 40 and I like, I'm like, do I need to spend the rest of my life like, you know, and what it comes from, we want to recreate the lack of safety that we experienced as children in relationship. Now, this wasn't a relationship yet. I mean, we're relating, but we're not like committed or anything like that. But like, we're looking for that, weirdly enough. And we, we like kind of screw with ourselves when we find the wrong person and then convince ourselves that they're the right person. And what was crazy about her was I could see that she was everything of the right person. And that started to scare me. So because I was feeling my own fear in that, I was like, I'm just going to sit back and like sit with this. And I, you know, I call, I consult with friends and people in my program. And I have my mentors. And I like, I talk to people to make sure that I'm, my head's not going out into fantasy land or outer space and to bring me back down. And same thing as like her, her sponsor. Said to just kind of like lean in and also listen. Like, that's the hardest thing for men to do is actually listen to what the other person's actually saying. Because if I were to go back to like relationships that were covered with, you know, so many red flags, it looked like a carnival, right? That's kind of the—

Yeah.

And actually listen to what they said to me about who they are, maybe I wouldn't have stayed in that, even gone further into that relationship. But then I just picked like the 5 things I liked about them and stuck with it.

Yeah, it's so amazing, the art of like listening under the surface to, you know, the beauty of somebody or the charisma of somebody, and to actually notice their behaviors or to, you know, notice the actual words they're saying as opposed to just getting swept up in the fantasy of it. That's such a powerful Yeah, part of it.

But the thing that was different about him than anybody that I've ever dated is that I could feel that he was like really grounded in his center and grounded in his masculinity. So I felt really safe. And he would— he was also really attuned to me. So he would just kind of like pull back, let me have my like, whatever, that moment, you know. And then I felt that pull to him again. So then I reached out to him and said some weird awkward thing like, sorry, that was weird yesterday or something. Stupid. But then he just like, he was like, okay, it's fine. Like, let's just hang out again and not— it's not— there's no pressure. Like, why don't we just— and we even had a plan for the next time we hung out where like, it's like I could go to his house and then if I felt weird, I could leave and it was fine.

Like, it was just great.

Yeah, it just created a lot of safety. And then I didn't need to leave.

She didn't leave. Yeah.

Just knowing that you could leave. Just knowing that you could leave. Just knowing that it was okay. Yeah.

That it it was okay and that he understood because he's been, he's felt the way I've felt before, right? And all we're ever doing is dealing with our own nervous systems and our capacity for closeness, right? But back to what Wilk was saying about like we recreate, we recreate, we subconsciously pull in what's familiar and then we want to correct the loop that was never corrected in childhood, right? So if we had people that were emotionally unavailable, for example, We want to find that one person who's unavailable and we want to make them available so that we can feel like we're worthy and we're lovable. But that's not how it works.

Wow. That is so interesting.

Yeah.

But that's not how it works.

Well, that's not how it works because then it creates a loop and then you end up in this cycle of pain because what we do is we pull in someone who is incapable of doing that because it's the same pattern from childhood where the person was incapable, right? So the only way out of it is to do the work on yourself. So for me, it was like doing deep, deep work, like healing my nervous system, you know, becoming trained in this myself because I learned so much that now I can help people. But I did it because I wanted to free my own self, to be honest.

So this deep, deep work, like when I hear that and I'm imagining people listening to this are thinking, deep, deep work, this sounds like this is going to be like the most enormous, longest process in the world. It can sound really daunting when you're at the bottom of a mountain and you're looking up going, I have to do all this work on myself before I actually meet the person that supposed to be with.

Yeah.

What would you tell them?

I would say you can hire a coach who's done deep, deep work for like 20+ years and they will make it much shorter for you, number one. Or you can take 20 years of your own time and try to figure it out yourself. And I would say that like there's not really another option in my opinion, because either you do the work on yourself and you, you create a different internal experience within yourself and then you can have a different experience, or You keep doing the same thing over and over again, and life will keep showing you over and over again your patterns, right?

This is what's so interesting, and I don't know if you found this too, Wilk, but I mean, for myself in my dating life, I've attracted a lot of the same partners just in different bodies. Honestly, it's like the exact same pattern. And I've always been curious about this. I mean, you said you've been out of relationship for 6 months before you met Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach. I'm just curious, like, in between that time, like, what did you have to do to attract a partner that didn't repeat the same patterns as the one before? Because it's like, what has to happen there?

Well, I think that this last stint— uh, so prior to that relationship, the one before, um, I guess I'll go into it a little bit. In 2022, this is kind of where I had my biggest wake-up call. I was in a very unhealthy relationship, but during that time, my dad had died, and then my dog, and then that girl that I was seeing left and then came back and then left and then came back and left. And the whole time I was like, this person has never been right for me. But my abandonment of like losing all those, that is such a big emotional impact. Like I, like abandoned myself to try to get them to stay, right? It's where I went through the God, get your ex back and all these ridiculous things. And realizing like all of that is just me abandoning myself. And then I ended up in SLAA, which is the Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous program. Not so anonymous for myself now.

Well, it's like the worst name though. Can we just say that the name of the program is really off-putting for people?

Yeah, it's not what people actually— what it sounds like, right? It's not like I'm addicted to sex, all that. It's emotional addiction. And it's also about emotional sobriety. It's about personal wholeness, right? The goal is for all the work that we should be doing, it's about becoming whole. You cannot really be in a relationship unless you have enough of yourself in it. And most people abandon themselves to be in relationships. So during that time, that grieving period, and all of that, and I had some like spiritual experiences, which I can go into at another time. But it, it brought me to realizing like what I wanted for myself. But I quickly jumped into something new before giving myself that time to heal those things that I knew needed to heal. And, and then I kind of recreated a version of that relationship and then the next one. So in that 6-month stint of, of like, kind of clearing myself, I was like, oh, I didn't give myself that time to kind of move this through my system. And one of the biggest things that I came to on my own, I even did like a, it was an Instagram post that actually like did well, was realizing that I needed to fall in love with the version of myself that would be in any of these relations, the healthiest version of myself, I needed to fall in love with the fantasy of that version. And to create that person that I want to be. If I were to be in a relationship, who do I want to be in that relationship? Not who do I want someone to be for me, right? Because if I can show up for myself, then I can show up for other people. And really understanding what that meant really grounded me in that. And, you know, working, doing men's work and grounding as a man, you need to ground yourself in your, you know, your masculinity. And that doesn't, that's not like, uh, being a man. I gotta go to the gym, which I went to the gym. You got to take care of yourself and all those things. But it's really like, once you really understand what you want for you, you can, you'll start attracting someone that mirrors that. And I feel like Jess mirrored all the things that I wouldn't allow myself to have in the past in a person. And now I'm like, because she, the people are even saying like, oh, you guys are like the same person or whatever.

And I'm like, People keep saying that.

It's crazy. But the thing is, a year ago, I wouldn't have been this person. You know, like these things existed in me, but I couldn't get there because I had to, like they say, like really taking care of your inner child, like reparenting yourself like that. That's a big part of it is really showing up for yourself the way your mom or dad didn't do it for you, or even the way your siblings didn't do it for you. You have to show up and take care of that part of yourself and then you're able to give back, then you're able to reflect that back to someone, then you can show up for someone else, and hold that space for them and not fall apart. Because the biggest problem in relationships is we don't listen. And then we take on the other person's problems. And then you start kind of like fighting from that place of, of what you think is going on with them. But it's not really what's going on with them. It's just your ego. It's just, it's that little child that like, is trying to fight for attention or whatever it is. And so the minute you can kind of like nurture that side of yourself, then you can show up authentically.

Wow, that is such good wisdom. I'm loving that from experience. You were, you were reminding me a couple minutes ago when you were talking about, um, not being as focused on, you know, who's the person that I want, but like, who do I want to be in relationship? Um, my past, uh, partner that I've recently ended things with, which was a whole other story, but one of the best questions she asked me right towards the end of us dating, she said, what's it like to date Keith? And like, I thought that was such— and then, and so what is it like to date you? You know, and we took turns like expressing to each other what it would be like to date ourselves, like if we were dating ourselves. And I thought that was such a brilliant practice to really get clear on who— what would it be like to date me? And, and am I in alignment? You know, and it was interesting as I was doing that experiment to like notice the different values that were coming up within myself and like the parts of myself that I'm really honoring. And then I also felt these parts of me like, oh, I don't know if I would want to date that part. So it was like, it made it really clear the, the parts that have been healing and the parts that still need a lot of attention. I just, it reminded me of that when you were saying it. Um, so now I want to ask you guys the question, but it just for people that are tuning in right now, it might be something worth exploring is, you know, what's it like to What would it be like to date yourself if you put yourself outside of yourself for a moment and just in third person? What's it like to date you? It's a brilliant idea.

You want us to answer this?

I mean, if you'd like to, you could.

I just don't—

I mean, you don't have to. I'm just curious.

I mean, I don't know. I feel like one thing— this might sound weird, but whatever. Like I was saying to my friend Teal, like, I want to date somebody who's like on the same kind of level as me with like consciousness and emotional intelligence and all that stuff. And that's like what I needed. And I wasn't able to find that within anybody. So, but like, even if you do have that within yourself. Well, yeah, but I couldn't, I wasn't able to find an equal in that realm for a really long time. But I did have that with my friendships. So like friends that are on the same level and friends that are on the same path of growth and things like that. So I mean, I know my shit. Like, I know some of the things about me that, like, could be a lot for people. Yeah. But I also know how to do the work so that it doesn't go— like, I handle it, you know? Like, none of us are going to be perfect. There's no perfectly healed moment where you're like, okay, like, now I'm ready to be in a relationship.

Totally.

That doesn't exist. But you do have to take responsibility for That's why doing the work again, back to doing the work, but knowing yourself and knowing your patterns and knowing the things that can trigger you and how do you show up that maybe could be— something small happened with us and I was watching myself because I was like, okay, I am communicating how I'm feeling. That's all I need to do. In the past, I would want to keep talking about it and keep going over the same thing. And I was like, that's enough. I don't need to keep— and he was super receptive and it was fine. And that's healthy communication.

You know, there's something that is really important in that though, is if your partner needs to keep talking about something, and you're regulated, if you're not, you gotta step away. But if you're regulated, hold, hold the space until they've said it enough times that they— yeah, that the charge is gone. And that's taken me a lot of work. I mean, if I could go back to, you know, 10, 15 years ago, and be like, how am I— you gotta keep going on about this. Like, and that's where a lot of conflict comes up because you're not actually hearing what's going on with the person. You're just hearing this attack that you feel like you're getting. And I like, even in this, this moment, we don't need to go into specifics, but like, I knew that what had happened made her feel really uncomfortable and dysregulated. And I'm not going to be there. I'm not trying to fix it. We do not need to fix someone else's emotional state by being a safe place, safe landing place for someone to express how they feel without you getting reactive is going to be the thing that fixes their emotional state without you trying. And a lot of people don't understand.

Yes.

Something else that I think is really important, and I'll tell you what it's like to date me more specifically, because if you want, I'm just curious.

I want to hear what you say. It's pretty great. I will tell you. And I'll tell you what it's like to date him after he tells you.

That'd be cool.

Yeah.

See where I got it wrong.

Yeah. Yeah.

But something really important here is we're, you know, we're talking about, oh, and you need to be a whole person. No, of course. But you don't need to be 100% healed. You heal in relationship too. But there's certain parts of yourself that you do need to know about yourself so that you can be in a relationship, but you can't look for a relationship to fix you. You just, a relationship will reflect back to you what you haven't worked on and give you the opportunity to grow from that. Otherwise, you're gonna fuck it up again.

That's exactly right. Exactly.

Now, as far as dating me goes, what's it like? I mean, I am really generous, confident. Apparently, I'm really funny. So you'll never have a date without laughing. You might see me cry.

Yeah.

Once in a while because I feel things deeply, but not like in a kind of project emotionally vomiting kind of way, but just like a beautiful cloud.

I'll cry.

I might take you on a spontaneous adventure and I might drag you from Los Angeles to Northern California to hang out with me.

How's that sound? And Jess?

That sounds accurate. And I would add that he— I just feel so taken care of. Like, it's crazy. It's just crazy.

But not in a— because there's something to note here. Not in a people-pleasing, I want to take care of you so you'll like me kind of way. Because there's a difference if you're a man and you're like, I just want to give her the gifts and the money and the flowers and all the things because she'll like me more. It's not attractive. There's no polarity there. Totally. But it's like, oh, I want to protect you. I want to take care of you. I want to make sure that you're safe. And not in a desperate way, but in like a, I see you as someone that I want to protect. That is attractive. That is masculine, right? And there's a difference because when you're desperately trying to win someone over, that's feminine. It's desperate. It's almost, it's childlike. And typically doesn't work, um, unless the other person has no, like, self-love or whatever it is, you know, for themselves, and maybe they'd abandon themselves to accept that. But, um, you know, if you really want to win someone over, you just got to show up as you and, and be giving of yourself.

That is such a good point. It reminds me of my friend Ned who says, just be yourself because everyone else is already taken.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm just so appreciating talking to both of you, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, but when we're in relationship with somebody, how there's like what I call the third entity. It's like the, um, it's the voice of the actual relationship. So it's not Wilk's voice or Jess's voice, but it's like there's almost like this third entity that happens in relationship, and it represents the voice of the relationship. And I'm just so curious, like, as we're coming closer towards the end of our conversation, if, if your third entity, like the relationship right now in this current state, was, um, a person, place, or thing, or a metaphor, I'd love to hear from both of you. What would it currently be, your relationship's third entity?

I'm not good with like abstract questions like that, but I'm not—

just give it a go.

But Like, but I'll just say that it literally feels like it's something beyond me. Like, I don't— because I was so in this mode of like, if I don't, if I don't like control and manage this whole thing, like in terms of like dating and trying to meet somebody and blah blah, then it's not going to happen. And at the same time, I was kind of like, this is never happening. Like, this is just never gonna happen. And I feel like this, whatever this connection is, between us is just its own thing. Like, it's, it's literally a spiritual experience where it just— I don't really have to do anything to like make it go a certain way, which might sound weird, but that's— I've never had that experience before. So it just feels like it's its own thing and then we can just show up for it, I guess. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. How about you, Wilk? What comes to mind for you?

Yeah, I'm trying to think of like The poetic side of me wants to personify it and give some—

like a butterfly.

It's like a butterfly. Should I read a butterfly poem?

Maybe next time.

Next time on The Way Through Podcast.

He made me listen to this poem. I was scared. He wrote this poem about butterflies and I was like, don't read that to me. I'm not ready.

It was not about you, but it was kind of in the end about what I wanted.

Yeah, it was actually really good. Yeah.

But I guess, yeah, we— trying to think of like, sorry, I'm trying to think of the best, most profound way to put this. It feels like in a lot of relationships, you know, the man is in the ship trying to navigate the storm and there's always a storm, right? Where's the calm water? And the third entity is this calm water that has existed between us, where even if there is a storm cloud, we're in the boat together. She's not the ocean. And typically I feel like I've been in these relationships where I'm in this boat alone trying to like be, you know, set sail into this like crazy like ocean that's just constantly throwing me, and I'm just trying to adjust the sails and survive and not topple over. And, you know, I'm sure at some point she can be the ocean. We have to know how to navigate that. But it's just been this kind of like, like calm sea that's been really such a relief. Like, yeah, I could cry about that. Like, it's been— it just feels so refreshing to be with someone who, like, gets me.

Yeah.

Who understands me. And, and like, we talk to each other probably too much, but it's, it's so much fun.

Like, I haven't—

I feel like a kid.

Yeah.

And I think there's a sense of play that we have with each other that's super important. So I don't know where I'm getting with that. That's awesome. As far as personifying it, an ocean is not a person, but—

It's an ocean.

It's an ocean. It's a metaphor.

But it feels really, it feels really just calm and easy and like we're just really aligned with each other. And something that I think is hard, like was hard for me and the fear that I had before I met him was like, Can you have something that's, that's like safe and peaceful, but also there's attraction? Because that was my biggest issue, honestly, and why for so many years I struggled and why I needed to join that program is because what I was attracted to was like the repeating loop of pain with people that weren't available. But so it, so it's possible, you know, because we have, it's really, I don't know, like we have the polarity. But it's also really healthy, and we just get— we just understand each other.

I'm loving listening to this, and I'm loving witnessing you two in relationship. And I— one thing I'm noticing objectively about that third entity is just like, there's like real humor, like there's playfulness between you two, which is just really such a gift to witness and be in the presence of as well.

Well, thank you for having us.

Yeah, thank you for being here. I, I also just have been so inspired listening to you both, um, being reminded about what, what I found to be what love really is. And it's like, one way I've heard love described is like, love is allowing somebody to be completely themselves. Like, the free love is free, like, versus contained. And I'm so appreciating, especially in some of the stories you shared today, just this idea of allowing each other to be who you are without trying to like fix, change, control. And it's just, it's a beautiful thing to witness.

Yeah.

Thank you. It just, it's just easy though. Like, that's the thing. There's not, there's like nothing that I'm like, oh, I wish he would do this differently. Like, there's nothing.

And you can, you should never have to change anything about anyone. You can say what you need. And if that person feels compelled and feels like that change is needed within themselves, they'll change. Mm-hmm. But you should never force anyone to change. And the minute you do, it's, well, you can't, it's already, doesn't work.

Spoiler alert.

Yeah, it doesn't work.

Doesn't work. No, absolutely.

You can try, see how it goes, but it won't work.

Ah, thank you guys so much for being here, and thank you for everybody that's tuning in, listening. And for those of you that are interested in more information about Way Through, um, you can check us out at waythrough.com. Um, as Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach had mentioned earlier, we have, uh, amazing coaching support for people that are, uh, dealing with challenges in relationship and how to navigate them. So come visit us there. We have an amazing community that's growing in support of finding your way through and into right relationship. So thanks for tuning in, everybody, and we'll see you on the next episode of Way Through.