Jumping Into New Relationships (EP. 5)

1, 2, 3, 4. Hi everybody and welcome to the Way Through Podcast. Uh, we're so glad that you've joined us today, and as always, we have some amazing questions from our community that have come up this week in conversation all about relationships. If you're joining us for the first time here, uh, on the Way Through Podcast, Way Through is a community filled with people that are finding their way through relationships on all different levels, especially those of you going through heartbreak, trying to navigate, what do I do now that my relationship has ended? There's so many questions and curiosities that come out of this space when you first find yourself in relationship and then out of relationship. So today we're going to be speaking about and answering some of these questions about relationships. And Bonnie and Jess are here as well, two coaches former co— or two coaches as well, uh, from the Way Through app and community. So welcome, you guys. Glad to have you here. Um, thank you. We've got a really, really good question from somebody that wrote in this week, and they said, what do I do when I finally have somebody that's come into my life and they are actually available for me when I'm so used to chasing and earning love in my previous relationships? "Feels so different this time dating this person. I'm noticing that I'm freaking out about this. I'm scared to lose him. What should I do?" What are your thoughts on that one?

Good one.

Wow. Very good. And not that unusual, as you know, for better or worse, it's not that unusual. We can get, like with lots of things in our life, we can get used to a certain level of drama or heartache or dysfunction so that the dysfunction feels normal and our minds we've convinced ourselves that that feels safe because at least it's known.

Mm-hmm.

We get afraid of the unknown. And so here we go into— even if it's something we've prayed for forever, a healthy relationship— all of a sudden we get what we've prayed for and oh my God, it's creating all sorts of anxiety or triggers for me because it's unusual. And how do I navigate? So that's where we bring in our stress reduction tools and regulation tools and phone-a-friend tools and all of those things. Jess, what's your sense of all of it?

Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, this is something that I'm actually navigating in this moment right now. So I really relate to this listener or the person that wrote in the question. And it is everything you said, Bonnie, was nailed it, like hit the nail on the head. And it's just interesting because we can say that we want something healthy. We want to be with someone available and Why do we keep having this pattern of attracting or being attracted to people that aren't available in some way, shape, or form? But there is a level of that that feels familiar, like you said. And when you do some work, and the way to shift out of that pattern, by the way, is to start becoming available to your own self. That's the way. So rather than reaching outside of yourself to try to fill whatever void within yourself with another person or with something else other than you, it's just to put your energy and focus on your own self. And then as you do that, you're going to start becoming a magnet for people that are available, not just romantically, but friendships and other things, other opportunities. But your nervous system can feel overwhelmed when someone actually shows up because that means that all that effort and energy that you spend like trying to prove your worth or trying to, you know, make the unavailable person available, which usually links back to childhood where you had like one or both parents unavailable or caregivers that were unavailable. So, you're trying to correct it in the current moment, in the present moment with somebody else. But it can feel really unfamiliar and then your mind will make stories about it. So, if you feel overwhelmed, if you feel a little bit, you might lean into a bit of an avoidant pattern where it's like, maybe I don't want this. Am I actually attracted to this person? Is this actually what I want? And your brain can find all kinds of reasons, but really what's going on is there's just fear present because it's someone who's showing up, who's available, who will actually see you, which is true intimacy, where there is a level of safety in chasing the unavailable person because they will, they won't really turn around and connect to you and see you fully. So there's a level of safety in that, of not being fully seen. So there's many layers to it, but it's like Bonnie said, it's really actually very common because a lot of us grew up without having that level of availability. So it's not uncommon. So I would just say slow it all down, maybe get some support, some coaching, work on your nervous system, meditate, pray, and you can take breaks, you can take some space to regulate yourself. And then just take it one day at a time. You don't have to figure out like if this person is your future spouse, your husband, or whatever, it's just— or your wife or whatever. It's just in this moment, do I want to keep exploring this? Okay, great. And just take it one day, one moment at a time.

Just that, just that, that easy. That's a lot to integrate. As I'm listening to this question that's come in, uh, the question that comes up for me in response to your question, whoever wrote in for this one, um, is what's great about this? Like, what's great about this situation? I mean, in some ways you've been wanting to attract the right partner for who knows how long, and all of a sudden they're here. What's great about this? One thing that comes to mind for me is just celebrating the fact that you've arrived in this new space. It's almost like an update or a transformation, you know, it's like the cocoon into the butterfly, like this metamorphosis moving from, you know, this one state of being where you kept attracting the wrong partner that was treating you like crap, and all of a sudden you've done some work, like this is actually great. and a sign that you've been doing work on yourself already, that somebody's showing up in your life that's meeting you where you want to be at. So I just wanted to name that because I think that's a really positive piece about where you're at. And although it's scary, this is really normal when we're coming up against edges in our life. And I think this is an edge to be with somebody that, whoa, actually wants to be with me. And there's this connection going on. So often when we get close to an edge, it's very common for us to vacillate between the old pattern and this new pattern that's coming in. So like what you were saying, Jess, about that sort of avoidance of like run for the hills, which can be very, very natural when we're first in a new situation like this, um, is probably an old pattern that's just coming up. And if you can call it out and go, oh yeah, that's just this part of me that I'm used to doing. But I've done the work and it's— this pattern's outdated and I'm gonna step in fully and just be here with this person. And, and, you know, I, I don't know, it's, it's like new territory to explore. And I don't think we ever arrive at a place where, oh, this is my person, check mark, it's all good now. I feel like this new person that's come into your life actually still has things to teach you and share with you. How does that work for you too?

Always. It's— you never get it all done. It's all learning. And the other thing too, what you mentioned, Keith, is naming it, just naming what's coming up for you is really healthy— sorry, really helpful, really helpful to name what comes up for you because it takes it out of this rumination loop in your brain and just brings it to the light. And if you can, even naming it with the person that you're seeing and say like, hey, I'm working this out. I have this tendency where if this feels overwhelming to me, I feel scared and it makes me want to pull back, but I'm actively wanting to work this out because the truth is you will, if you really want to be in a healthy partnership, you will have to work it out with someone. So, but naming it and being able to speak about it with whoever you're dating is helpful too, because then you don't feel like you have to hold it in because what we resist persists, gets bigger. And there's this thing, this guy, I think his name's Dan Siegel, talks about naming it to tame it. So if you just name whatever your emotion is that you're having or the experience you're having, then it automatically has this calming effect on the brain and on the nervous system.

Wow. As you're saying that, I'm just thinking—

Sorry, you go, Keith.

As you're saying that, Jess, I'm just thinking too, like, to name it, you could name it to your partner, but you could also just be like writing this stuff down. I find this really helpful in process is to just start writing down what I'm noticing in the moment, you know, just starting with a prompt. Yeah. What I'm noticing about myself right now is, and just go for it.

Yeah.

And not making it bad or wrong or judging or shaming yourself. Cause I know that's something that I went into the past couple of years when I, I, there was a time where I thought I had someone who was really good and really available and, and I, for, I wasn't really into it and I was really shaming myself like, oh my gosh, see what's wrong with you? Like, you're never gonna have what you want because you don't like this specific guy. And it's like, we can turn this healing work on ourselves really easily. So not judging it, not making it bad or wrong, but just putting it on paper is super healthy. And that's how another way we can become available to ourselves is just connecting with ourselves through journaling and putting pen to paper. So I love that. Suggestion.

Bonnie, you had a thought.

Gosh, I've had many thoughts now. Which one was I thinking of? But it— and on your point, Jess, and yours too, Keith, about moving that energy out rather than what happens if we don't express it. Ideally, turns out communicating with a partner is part of a healthy relationship. So actually communicating, allowing ourselves to be vulnerable, as scary as that is— and you can titrate that, you know, you don't have to share your entire inner existence with someone and terrify them, or, or terrify yourself in the process. It can be you, you offer bits at a time until you're feeling like, okay, I can wade in this water a bit more comfortably now. And because we're testing that response— can they hold that? Can they hold my vulnerability? And can I feel safe in sharing who I am? And then, okay, I don't have to either distract myself from what's coming up what's uncomfortable and I don't have to suppress it because when we suppress it, our nervous system is going to act up. It's going to get worse. We'll have anxiety or however we naturally would respond to that for ourselves. And the other piece can be when we start to experience some calm in relationship and joy and love in a relationship that we're not used to, Notice if during that period of time we start to look for problems.

Mm-hmm.

We're so used to the drama, we can become drama addicts, especially if that's been a life that we've been used to. And so everything is going great, and all of a sudden we're trying to make a big deal about something that is actually nothing. And so catching ourselves in those moments— so it does require some practices around how can I be present with myself, noticing what's going on, do some body scans regularly so it doesn't sort of unleash itself in conversation and bite the person across from you. It's just starting to be more, as you said, Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach And Dating Coach And Dating Coach And Dating Coach, more in relationship with yourself so that you can navigate that scary territory with an other and recognize when you're either trying to distract from what's— what you're feeling, suppress what you're feeling, or create a problem where there is no problem.

So good, Bonnie. I love that you brought that up. This— because that is what will happen a lot is if we are feeling uncomfortable because we're not used to tuning into our bodies, right? So I saw something recently that said, you know, don't trust your mind so much in terms of what you're drawn to or what you're attracted to. Tune into your body. And really feel into your body. And a lot of us have conflated attraction with something that's actually not safe. And the chemistry is actually more like danger signals in our nervous system, but we think that it's attraction and it's excitement. But if we can slow down and tune into our bodies and feel how our body feels in the presence of this person, that's really, really helpful. But also if we're having this feeling of overwhelm, which is what avoidant, avoidant energy is like it just feels overwhelming. Closeness can feel overwhelming. So then we start to look for problems, right? So I don't know about you guys, but I've had a few relationships where people have ended them for really, honestly, in my opinion, ridiculous reasons. But it's like exactly what you're describing, Bonnie, where it's like, did they just needed to find a reason to get out of the discomfort? But it's like, can we actually just go into the discomfort and learn how to get curious and what's there and what's coming up for me and how can I hold myself through that. And it is definitely a muscle that we build, you know, and I think we can practice this with healthy friendships and with, you know, even with coaches or therapy, like being vulnerable and being held in that is really helpful for when we do have a romantic partner come in that's actually available for us in that way because we've already practiced with safe people, safe friends, community. I know that helped me a lot with, with all of this.

Keith, I have a question for you. So in the part Jess is talking about really, and I did too, with, with this, okay, connect with your body, pay attention to what's going on there. What happens when the body is also wanting to procreate and the biology is saying yes, yes, yes to this person and it's the physiology that's pulling, how do you know the difference between this is a physiological pull, like a spark, like fireworks, whatever, that is more of a procreation natural instinct as humans and what is a, Oh, my body feels safe here and attract in and resonates with this person. How do you know the difference? How do you regulate the difference?

Bonnie, why are you asking me this question? Come on.

How long have I known you?

Well, I mean, this has been, yeah, this has been definitely part of my, this has been part of my experience is like knowing the difference between like fantasy and reality and like what is truth. And it can be so easy to get swept up into the story of somebody, especially when you first meet them, about, you know, what you think it could be, or, you know, what you want it to be. And then there's this piece about reality of like, well, what actually is true? And I think what you're pointing to, Bonnie, around, um, the somatic body is really important. And it's interesting because we can get mixed signals even at that level. Where, you know, our primal instinct is, oh, let's, let's procreate, like you said. And then there's this other instinct of like, um, run for the hills or whatever. And it's so— it's like, I think it's a big discernment. And I don't know if, um, there's a definite, like, correct answer to this. I think it's, um, what I've experienced so far, it's been really a, a presence practice like you've been both speaking about, where It's like deeper listening underneath the surface of my excitement or my dopamine hit that's happening with this new person that's so exciting. And what this could be is really like sitting in this space of what really is my truth here and what feels most resonant in this moment. And that's going to change. This is the part that I find so challenging is that life is in a constant state of change and emergence. So what we might be feeling is true today, tomorrow might not be true tomorrow. And can I live in the space of not always knowing but staying curious and really trusting what feels most truthful to me in this moment, and knowing that that probably will change because I'm not the same person I was even a day ago? Yeah, that's what comes up for me on that question.

Yeah, I was Oh, sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

I was just gonna add deep bow to you, my brother, because you took one for the team on that. All of us have experienced some version of that, right? Uh, whether we're wanting to have babies or we're feeling at a prime in our life for whatever reason. And you, my brother Keith, my ginger brother from another mother, are one of the most spiritually dedicated people I know. And yet that confusion can still come even for people as dedicated to their practice as you are and as self-aware as you are. So thank you for, for letting people know that it's a constant practice for all of us. Keith was brave enough to answer that question, but it's a constant practice for all of us, regardless of whether we're wanting to procreate or not. It's in our biology. And we can get lost in the sparks, in the shininess of whatever is being presented. And that can show up in a human in all sorts of ways. But yeah, deep bow to you, brother.

Thank you. Well, it is really annoying when you become more aware and conscious of this stuff, because then part of me, this one part of me is like, I just want to play in the fantasy and the shiny objects and just enjoy this for what it is. But then there's this other part of me that's like, you know better, you know this is gonna bite you in the ass if you do this. And it's like this constant, like, angel-devil discernment going on in me. And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I think it's all exploration. And, you know, if I feel like playing in the fantasy, there's something that's really alive about that in relationship when we let ourselves play there. But can you do it with awareness so that you're not getting completely swept up where it has you instead of you having it. And I think that's the key, is like, can I maintain my own sense of self and truth here, um, versus it having me? I think that's the big shift that needs to happen, or at least for me, that's what I've found.

You're making a conscious choice, and that's different from making an unconscious, instinctual choice. You're making a conscious choice, and it might be whether it's a human or a piece of cake or whatever the delight is, that favorite cocktail where, you know, oh, I'm gonna feel this later. I'm gonna have a, whether it's an emotional hangover or a physical hangover, you're gonna feel it later. But sometimes you gauge it and you go, oh yeah, in this circumstance it's worth it. Yeah. And so we go for the ride knowing that there's gonna be something that we get. Get out of it that is lovely and wonderful. And it may sting on the way out, but what a gift of information. We're gathering information along the way. Beautiful. What about you, Jess? What's your thoughts?

I was just so curious how Keith was going to answer that epic question that you asked, Bonnie. I loved it. Yeah, what are my thoughts? I mean, everything you're saying makes sense, both of you. And I think it is, it is a thing where we are kind of, sometimes we're going against our instincts, like our animal instincts. And Allison Armstrong, who's an expert in, in men, um, talks about like human animal versus human spirit. And like that whole instinctual, like I'm attracted to this person and that's the only thing that matters is more obviously human animal. And then human spirit would be like bringing in more consciousness to it. So something that I find helpful, at least for me, is to get really clear on what qualities that I would want in a partner and what actually works for me. And then bringing that level of discernment in and not just letting the attraction run the show. Because I swear, that's what tripped me up for many, many years was like, oh, I'm attracted to them. That's all I need to know. And then going on this, you know, ride with this person that's like, not compatible or not healthy or some sort of variation of unavailable just because attraction was the gauge, you know? So bringing in discernment, I think, is really helpful. And then like you said, I mean, it's all learning, so you can't get it wrong. Life is always going to be teaching us and always giving us feedback. So one of my mentors says, like she said, Amma, she says, life is very generous. And will always keep showing us whatever we need to know. And it will get louder, actually. So there isn't really— you can't get it wrong. And you might need to gather some more data and you might need to go down the same road, you know, 25 times and see if it still leads to the same place. But it's okay because no matter what, you're learning. And there's no end to this. We're here learning. We're in Earth school learning until we leave the planet, at least from what I understand. So It's all part of the learning.

If you look at the evolutionary spiral on that as well, as we grow through stages of development, we grow and then we test, we reach a new stage of development that feels uncomfortable initially, but we're toggling up the evolutionary spiral. And then we can drop down and then toggle up and then we stabilize here and then we start to lift up higher. And if we drop a few stages below what is normally our stage, we have this experience, this peak experience that isn't a liberating experience. It is like a bite in the ass, my friends.

It is hot.

And it's like touching a hot stove that, wow, okay, I followed that pattern that I used to do that felt good at the time, although I had this emotional hangover after, it didn't feel great later. But as we grow up that spiral, life's biggest moments aren't always easy.

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It gets increasingly painful when we drop down and experience some of the old patterning in a way that we would have. And, you know, once you become— once you know something, you can't unknow it. And so it's like touching a hot stove when we go back there, um, until we— you know, it propels us forward. What were your thoughts, Keith?

Well, I just noticed this person that wrote this in, they said like towards the end, I'm scared to lose him 'What should I do?' And I notice that I'm freaking out about this. And so to me, I'm hearing like there's a lot of fear going on underneath the surface for this person. And whether it's the fear of losing this person, or, you know, their nervous system is dysregulated right now. Um, I, I heard you at the beginning, Jess, that you're going through something quite similar right now. And so it's quite timely. And I find this really interesting that often coaching clients will show up, um, and as a coach, they're often mirroring what I'm going through exactly at the same time. And we're— as Ram Dass would say— we're just walking each other home, like we're just updating each other. And the coaching process brings consciousness to that. But I'm curious, just from your perspective, Jess, like, this person's experiencing quite a bit of fear and dysregulation in their nervous system right now. And based on the scenario that you're in, I'm just curious, like, what are you doing to like regulate the nervous system right now?

Yeah.

And to not freak out.

Yeah. I, I know I named a bunch of things all at once, so it might've been a little convoluted, but just slowing everything down and not, not taking action from that place of fear is really helpful. So slowing down, maybe even taking a little bit of space for yourself. And I think it's really important to be grounded in your own life. So keeping up your routines, like for me, I need to make sure that I'm doing yoga. I need to make sure that I'm still connecting with my friends and my community. I need to be here with you guys, you know, just grounding myself in my own life. And then just taking it one day at a time honestly has saved me in every challenge that I've had in life, right? So I'm doing that here too, because I do have moments where my body is like, and it's really interesting because it's a response in the body to the level of availability. Like, it's so wild.

What's the scariest part? Like, what is the scariest part?

I mean, it's complicated, right? But it's not all, it's not entirely conscious. It's the only reason it is conscious is because I've done so much work on this for so many years. But like, if relationships And if your earliest relationships were not really safe, then you have an association that love equals pain or love equals whatever thing, chaos, right? Or love equals unavailability or whatever. So, or so if you actually open yourself up to that, you're a sitting duck, you know? So it's easier, even though it's painful, it's easier to go towards the unavailable thing where you're like pouring in, like in the past, I would be pouring myself into these people. People that were not available at all and think, I'm so available, it's them that aren't available. They're the ones that aren't available. And meanwhile, it's like, no, I'm not available to myself. And then also for a healthy thing, because I'm pouring all of my energy into this black hole of someone who's not able to show up fully.

And is the fear, like the fear in this situation, like I'm just trying to interpret it for this person that wrote in, like, is the fear that you're going to go back into an old pattern with? No, it's not.

No, the fear, I don't, I can't even fully name it. It's like my body just feels really, really terrified. Like in my solar plexus, it feels uneasy and shaky. And I don't even fully know what that is, but I know enough to know I can. So I bring in reasoning and I'm like, hold on, let's slow everything down. I have my support team, right? Like Coaches need coaches. I have my people. I have my 12-step community too. Like, I'm really in connection, living in consultation is what they call it. Like, checking in with my sponsor, talking it through with him. And I brought it up with him a few times. And every time I try, I share something and I'm like, he's going to tell me that I'm crazy and he's going to tell me that, you know, this is too fast and blah, blah, blah with this guy. But every time I share something with him, he's like, I think this sounds really healthy. And I think you're experiencing some fear coming up. Like, it's a lot of fear. But my— then my brain will do something where it's like, maybe I'm not into it. Maybe I'm not, you know, actually attracted to this person. Maybe it's not a good idea. Maybe he's too into me. And maybe he's crazy.

Like, it'll just sound like— these all sound like symptoms of fear. Like, clearly, there's stories.

Yeah. Like narratives.

And I'm appreciating your awareness, and it says a lot about the work you've done. And it's also, if anybody's listening right now going through a similar situation, um, I think this really speaks to the power of having a mentor or a coach. But the fact that you had the awareness that in your solar plexus something feels off, you know, and then this awareness that the pattern to like run for the hills or whatever is like you have the awareness. And what I'm so curious about, if you're willing to go there, but we don't have to.

No, I'll go there.

What I'm so curious about is like, what is the fear? Like, what is, what is the risk here? What's the fear?

I think it's a fear of fully being seen and like true intimacy.

Because if you were seen, what would be the risk?

I don't know if I, when I was seen when I was a kid, like it was brutal. Like people that were supposed to keep me safe and protected did not. So, it's like, and I don't fully understand, to be honest with you. I don't know because my conscious mind is like, this is all I want. Like, all I want is to have a partner and build a life with them and have a family consciously. But, my subconscious, there's still some wiring in there that needs to be healed.

Like, there's— My fear is if I'm seen, then what? I'm just so curious.

I mean, I'm telling you, it's not fully conscious. It's just, this is as far as I've gotten with it. But I know my pattern is not running. My pattern is like anxiously attached, like grabbing and clinging and not letting go, right? So I've done, I guess, enough healing that now the pendulum, like Bonnie was saying, or the spiral, which I want to get a tattoo of a spiral to represent that, by the way, because I fully, that spiral theory is really true. But I think the way I describe it is like the pendulum swinging from the anxious attachment of like clinging and not being able to let go to swinging all the way over to now being more avoidant. And so it's unfamiliar to me. Before, I was so annoyed by people that were avoidant. I was like, what's wrong with them? They don't care. Like, they have no emotion. And now I have so much more compassion. Because it's that disorganized attachment where you can swing a little anxious or you can swing avoidant. So I, I, I'm swinging more avoidant now, but I can catch it and kind of bring myself back. But I'm definitely at my edges right now with this for sure. And I, I would guess like it's just a fear of intimacy, like a fear of being fully seen in all of my humanness, right? Like when in the past, like you know, being too much, being crazy, being whatever, like not pretty enough, not whatever enough. Like just letting someone in to fully see you is actually more risky than—

You sure what I'm hearing? It's almost like just to check, but what I'm hearing is it's like, if I'm seen equals I might not be enough.

Yeah. Like then what if they leave then? What if I fully let somebody in And then they really don't want me. And then it's like, that really proves all of these subconscious lies, right? These trauma narratives, right? Of like, oh, see, then maybe I'm not really enough, or maybe I'm not worthy, or maybe I am too much, or whatever, right? This is just my hypothesis. It's not fully conscious for me exactly what it is. Yeah.

Well, that's absolutely vulnerable. Thank you for sharing that because I think there's so many of us that feel the exact same way, what you're describing here. And at the core of it, it's like this belief of, you know, whether it is a belief of, you know, if I'm seen and they actually really see who I am, I'm not going to be enough. Like, if that's it, or a variation of that. And, and it's— I'm so curious because then the question I ask would be like, how do you know that's true?

Right.

And then it's not— and it's interesting, right? Because we don't really know it's true. And then this relationship shows up to actually potentially show us that it's not true. Yeah. And then our own, our own inner work too, of like, is this belief actually true? And if it's not true, like, what is true? Or what could be true?

Yeah, like the Byron Katie, the Byron Katie questions. Do you know those?

Byron Katie? Yes, she's Oh, 4. A big, what are the questions?

Oh my gosh, I might have to look them up, but it's— Is it true? There we go.

Are you 100% it's true? If it's not, like even a fraction, if even a fraction is not true. So is it true? Is it 100% true? Are you willing to let it go? And are you willing to let it go now? And if the answer is no to any of those, that's fine too. But if you're not willing to let it go now, if you need to be in it for a bit, It's too scary to let go. Okay, when will you be ready to let it go? Let's put a timer on that, if possible.

How will you know when you're ready?

I think it's a process. I think it's a process.

You'll say yes. And you know what I would suggest is you'll continue to attract more of these loving mirrors in your life that remind you. Oh yeah, because under all of it, afraid to be seen, all of these things, and I can only from the people that I support, and even for myself, ultimately, am I enough? Am I enough for what? Am I enough to be worthy of love? Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And then we can even, you know, if you're on a spiritual path, it is, is, you know, am I aware that I am not separate from love? Mm-hmm.

Right, right.

I am love.

Right.

You can get a little esoteric from out of context, but it's true. I work Am I worthy of love? Fundamentally, am I worthy of love? And it can show up as, am I pretty enough? Am I good enough? Am I all of these things enough? Am I worthy of love?

Right.

Oh, that's right here all the time.

Yeah, for everyone, for everybody. Like, fundamentally, one of my favorite teachers is Louise Hay. She wrote the book, she wrote You Can Heal Your Life. I'm sure you both know, but for anybody listening, Jess Conscious Relationship And Dating Coach, great, amazing, beautiful teacher who was so far ahead of her time in terms of subconscious work and all of these things. But it basically boils down to the fact that we just don't feel enough. The human condition is like we feel like in some way, shape, or form not enough. And then the other thing too we have to be careful is to not make the relationship our higher power or make this other human God, right? And they get to determine our worth because then we're in a whole other problem. So it's like, can I just tap into that frequency of love and connection to whatever word you want to use, the divine, God, love, and can I just be that within myself? And that's the best place to move from for anything. And that's where we are truly free because then we're not placing our value in the hands of another flawed human.

Wow.

What's so interesting.

It was so interesting as you're saying that too, Jess, is like I find myself in this toggle between feeling that space of being totally divinely connected to that greater source of love, and all of a sudden my confidence just is here and I feel grounded and I feel like I'm enough. And then I toggle into like what I might call my ego. Wayne Dyer used to say E-G-O, ego. Edging God out.

Yeah.

And I become sort of identified with, you know, what I do, what other people think of me, what I have. And then all of a sudden I'm on this rat race chase trying to like prove my enoughness to this person that I'm attempting to have a relationship with.

Yes.

And it's, it's such an interesting dance between those two places of, you know, experience. And I don't know, like, I, I don't think we're supposed to get it perfectly right. But isn't it amazing in this human form that we're in, that we're invited, we're constantly invited back into this space of knowing we are so loved and we're so enough and to really feel it in every cell of our body.

Yeah. Yeah. And we forget and remember all the time. Like that's part of it is that we are human. We're in these human bodies with these egos or inner children running the show sometimes or whatever you want to call it. So we're gonna forget and we're gonna have moments and that's okay. And then we remember and then we forget and then we remember. But these stories are not true, right? And it's so interesting because I just, with all the clients that I've worked with, I can just see it so clearly when they're in one of these narratives and then going towards a person or, you know, seeking outside of themselves to try to prove, disprove their story about themselves, right? But the work is really here in terms of Do I actually want to internalize that narrative that I'm not enough in some way? Because if we do, then we're going to find evidence of it everywhere we look. It's very easy.

I've embarrassingly even been in a place in the past where my partner, the person I was with, was defining my worth and my enoughness. It's like, oh, if I'm with this beautiful person that seems to have it all together, then that's going to somehow boost my— the way that I look to the world. And it was, it was such a realization to notice, wow, I'm just chasing supermodels so that I'm gonna look more— I don't know, more like— or enough elevated or enough propped. And it's funny that we put all of this emphasis on the outside world to identify who we are when I think when we could take a page out of Mr. Rogers' book, that you're, you're lovable just the way you are already without all the stuff.

Yeah.

Or the, you know, the— what do they— what are the guys called? The trophy wife. I think that's what they, they say, you know, like, yeah, enough. That's enough without any of that, like, to just show up. So one thing that's coming up here for me, and this has been really helpful in my love life experience that I might share, is like I think taking the space between partners can be really helpful too. And, and then asking the question, how do I know when I'll be ready to date again? And there was a time where, and it was a question of like, how will I know? And one of the things that came up is I'm not going to be thinking of my partner as this material object that's defining my, you know, my value. I'm actually going to have a genuine intimate relationship with this person and we are going to walk each other home. And that was a big update in that moment.

That's so big. That's so big. You know, with like, I study sacred union, divine union partnership, because that's what I'm aiming to experience here. And the focus of that level of partnership is your relationship to like yourself and God first. And then the partnership, it's like a triangle. So, both partners are focused on their relationship to the divine and being whole within themselves. And then the partnership is like a natural unfolding as a result of being on that frequency, but it's never making the other person your higher power or your God, if that makes sense.

Wow. Holy, this opens up a whole can of worms for me, but I am so curious. Because we're using the word God a lot here and spirit and like, but what about somebody that doesn't have that belief system? Somebody that's like agnostic or they just, they're an atheist. They don't believe. What do you do with that situation?

I mean, do you want to take that one, Bonnie?

Sure. Sure. What if loving kindness is their God equivalent? What if compassion is their God equivalent? What if being a good and true and beautiful human in the higher dimensions of that without a dharma to be in, in the guiding force of that? What— because I— there are incredible humans out there who do not believe that there is something greater than us, that this is it. This is it. And so I would say, how do they show up? And what's their North Star? And like I said, it can be an inner quality that is not greater or lesser than any God or Allah, Buddha, grandfather, sky spirit that I might define for my guiding light. But what is their guiding light? What is their value, their purpose that inspires them, that helps them to become and aspire to be true to themselves, true to their heart. It might be some incredible— maybe they, they go on a hike and that's their God. You know, they, they look at the sky and, and open up not to see a God, but to see the beauty in the world reflected back at them. And so I think there's room for all the ways that we point to the same thing. All the ways. And we can put language and, and scripture and dharma around, wrap it around that. But even there, in the truest form, it is beyond all of the languaging above that, around that. And it's this higher connection. So what if we're just— if— what if it's more semantics than lived experience? I don't know the answer to that. I'm not atheist. I don't know the answer to that. I will say that Einstein reminds us a lot that even great scientists eventually become mystics. So let's see if they're atheists. They say there is no atheist that dies. I don't know if that's true. I have no idea. Let's see. But I think, I think it's what ultimately what brings us joy, what helps us to be loving humans, is towards each other. That matters. The language in which we get there, for me, doesn't matter.

Yeah, I love that. I think that too. It's funny, I was just having this conversation with someone about— because I feel like we've messed up the word God so much as humans that it's just all wonky. And it used to freak me out. Like, someone told me a long time ago to read Marianne Williamson's book, A Return to Love, and I opened it and I saw the word God and I was like, eh, no thank you. And I put it away. For a long time. And now I love that book, but just the word God is so wonky. But I think even if you just believe that there's something greater than you, and it doesn't even have to be, doesn't have to have a name. It could literally just be the belief that maybe there's something that's greater than you, right? That in A Course in Miracles, it says whatever the force is that causes the planets to revolve around the sun and acorns to turn into oak trees and embryos to turn into babies, like we don't do that. We don't consciously do that. So whatever that force is, can you allow that to operate in your life? Right? And I have clients that are not spiritual at all. And so I just speak to them in whatever their language is for this thing. But one of my clients just likes to think of it in terms of energy. So we'll talk about energy and how energy can help shift our reality and what we focus on. But I mean, I don't know, because I've been anywhere from like, I don't believe in anything, to now I fully have a super strong connection to whatever that energy is, and I call it God. But I think you can apply this work anyway, because even if you even take prayer, right? If you don't believe that you're praying to some like man in the sky or whatever, just the act of putting energy towards something is enough to program your subconscious to help things to move in the physical world. So you can think of it as working with your own subconscious mind as a computer when you're praying, for example.

So yeah, I'm loving this conversation. I love that we've gone from this one question in the whole spectrum of like fear into love into who is— what is God? Is there a God? It's but it's interesting when I listen to the arc of this conversation, it really sounds to me like we're speaking about how to move closer to love and less fear. And love— I've heard that saying, love is letting go of fear. And so this relationship that's come in for this person, just to come full circle back, I, I think it's this invitation to deeper love at the end of the day. And that can be really scary. That can be really edgy when you're first moving towards something that you haven't been before, but it sounds like there's this opportunity to love deeper and in all its forms.

Yeah. And religion won't necessarily get you there.

Nailed it. Keith nailed it. Mic drop for Keith.

There is love and there is everything else, as Rumi would say. Beautiful, Keith. Yeah, absolutely.

And that's what A Course in Miracles says. You know, it's just, the dance between love and fear, but that only love is real, that fear isn't even real. So the passage at the beginning of A Course in Miracles, it's really beautiful and it talks about that. Like, all we ever have to do if we want to simplify it is just look at, okay, are we moving closer toward love or moving into fear?

I would say with fear, fear isn't real in the sense that we end up finding out at some point along the spectrum that We go through the fear and it's like, oh, it actually wasn't as scary as I thought it was going to be, or this experience. But when you're in fear, I just want to distinguish this, it feels really real. Like what, what you might be going through right now in a relationship and it's really scary, it might feel really real. But I do have to say that when you move through it, and this is I think why Way Through, one of the reasons we exist, is to help people move through their fear into realizing that the ultimate truth is that it's— it was love all along. It was always love. And so this is the invitation to come into this community and be part of it, is to, yeah, to expose the fear, which can be really scary, but to name it and to call it out. And I just— I'm so appreciating the vulnerability of this conversation today and, and this amazing question that's come in from our community. And I just want to remind you, if you're listening, to please subscribe to our podcast if you're into this conversation and many more. And also, please ask your questions. This is so helpful, and we love to have these conversations based around what you're listening to and what's coming up for you. So if you want to ask a question, two ways to do it. If you want us to speak about it on the podcast, you can go to waythrough.com and ask your question there under the podcast section. Or, uh, every Wednesday we have a live free, uh, question and answer period with our coaches. And, um, this is a chance to meet as a community. All you got to do is go to waythrough.com and sign up, or you can download our app as well. And, um, every Wednesday we have a conversation similar to today, uh, entertaining questions about love and relationships. So we want to continue to have these conversations because you're not an island. And, um, so with that being said, we want to just, uh, thank you all for tuning in and listening today. Thank you, Bonnie and Jess, for your time and just your amazing presence and wisdom here. And, um, until next time, everybody, uh, we'll see you on the next episode of Way Through.