Mindfulness in Relationships (EP. 4)

1, 2, 3, 4! Hi everybody and welcome to this week's episode of The Way Through Podcast. I'm Keith McPherson, one of the coaches and founders of The Way Through app and community. And if you're joining us for the first time, a big welcome, and welcome back if you've been listening to our regular podcast every week. This week, it's going to be myself here on the podcast hosting with my ginger sister, Bonnie Schroeder, who is also one of the coaches with the Way Through Community and app. And Bonnie and I go back a long way. We've been, I guess, I don't know how you say, siblings from different mothers, but it feels like we've been related our whole life. And we share a very common bond in the space of spirituality. It's one of our passions. It's one of the things we love to integrate into our work as coaches. And so, Bonnie, welcome, welcome to the Way Through Podcast today.

Thank you, my brother from another mother. Thanks, Keith, or as I call you, my ginger brother.

Yeah, it's great. I'm so happy to be here. It's really great to be here together. And you're probably wondering, where are the other coaches that are often here? They're all on holidays. They all live in the US and they're celebrating Thanksgiving this week. So it's just me and my sister. And we want to talk today to you guys and share with you some insights around spirituality and relationships. We've had a couple of curious questions come in from our community this week regarding navigating spirituality in conjunction with relationships. And so I thought this would be a great chance for us to explore these questions since both Bonnie and I totally geek out on this topic. So—

No.

Don't we?

We so do. If you had heard us earlier, we geek out all the time on it.

We really do. We like, we love talking about this. One of my favorite topics, spirituality, and especially in conjunction with relationships. I'm going to read the first question that came in, and it was a question that said, my partner and I are struggling because we have different spiritual beliefs. He is an atheist and I believe in God. Is there a reason to end the relationship, or is this a reason to end the relationship?

Juicy, right?

That's a really, really juicy question. Yeah.

And in our world now, increasingly, sort of like, um, creating a diamond out of coal, we are in so much pressure in our world right now because there's so much suffering going on. There's so much chaos and confusion and people are losing jobs and friends are passing away and countries are going through turmoil and all of the stuff, right? And certainly one of the ways through for me is through some deeper connection because how do you get through it? And I also appreciate that there's couples out there where one person is more inclined in that way, I'll say, in another, um, you know, given we have lots of people who grew up in a particular tradition that was really, uh, really hurtful for them in their life and created a lot of trauma for them in their life. And so then everything is off the board, um, and sometimes people come back to it in a different way, or they just keep it out forever. Sort of close the door. And weaving back to the world and the being in the place that it's in right now, um, that deeper part of us— that, call it by whatever name, but just this higher self, this soul, this greater expanse of who we are— is naturally pulled, in my view, naturally pulled to wake up, um, naturally pulled to know that love is holding us all, even through all of the tragedy. And so two things on that. I would say that increasingly, um, there is a lot more of this talk in relationship around spirituality and what lots of people are calling conscious relationship, uh, where you're intending to grow together. Because the alternative is you're just on two very separate paths and you, you miss the intimacy of connecting on these really meaningful in these meaningful ways. And, and so the, the short answer to your question would be there's always a way through, no pun intended, but there is always a way through, um, when both parties are willing. Will it be easy? It depends on how far they're apart. If one is an atheist and one is deeply spiritual in some way, you— it might be a big stretch. Um, and so then there's two options: you either go deeper together or you decide to go your own, your own way, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, as I'm listening to you speak about that, I'm also thinking about, just with this question in mind, compatibility. And I think it's a really, really important piece of the puzzle when you're in relationship. I mean, um, Matthew Hussey, who I absolutely love— if you haven't checked out Matthew Hussey's work, he's incredible. He's a relationship coach. He does a lot of work in this field as well. And he talks about these sort of four, um, elements that need to be in play for a relationship to really function properly. He talks about, I mean, initially when you first meet somebody, is there attraction? Are you actually attracted to this person? Is there a you know, that immediate attraction level. And I think a lot of people, they just end up there and then it fizzles because that's all there is, is this mutual attraction. But beyond attraction, there's also, um, this invitation to— is there compatibility? Like, is there actually, you know, what are your values? What are my values? Are we— can we work together based on— we're going to be different, but do we have similar, um, values set up enough that they're going to work together and be compatible. So I think that's really the area that this really falls into, in my opinion. I'm just trying to think the other two areas off the top of my head. There was attraction. Oh, there was connection as well. So connection is after the attraction level connection. Do we have a connection? Are we able to sustain something? Do we feel like you know, we're clicking, and then compatibility. And then finally, I think there's also the level of commitment. And that's another area I think where a lot of relationships will fizzle or fall apart is the commitment wasn't there. One person didn't want to commit and sign up for it, and the other was totally maybe gung-ho, or maybe you both decided you weren't going to commit. And then hence situationships and whatnot. So with that all being said, the question that's coming in about should this be a deal breaker, like should we end the relationship because my partner's an atheist and I'm not? I think that really is a subjective question because it really depends on where, where you're at, like as a, as a couple and also individually. So it might be a starting point for you, the person that asked this question, to just sit in the space of, okay, if I was with this person for the rest of my life, Would I be okay knowing that they might not, you know, come to the synagogue or the church with me, or we wouldn't be able to maybe have conversations about God in a way that I want to? Or maybe you would. Like, maybe this is an opportunity in another sense to get curious about each other and open up in new ways and talk about this, and maybe there's more compatibility than you realized. So it really depends on, I think, an individual experience of, is this actually compatible for me? And then also the relationship. Does this relationship feel like, you know, it can navigate that as well? What do you think?

I would say to Keith that define spirituality. What is that and what does that feel like? So if that feels like compassion and kindness and a willingness to greet someone where they're at with empathy and deep listening skills and all of these things that can come with living a more conscious life— is— does that— excuse me— if you have a partner who brings all of those to the table but they don't call it spiritual, does it matter? Are they kind? Are they loving? Are they fulfilling? Are they greeting you in a way that lights you up and, and helps you know that, oh yeah, we're— they're committed and we're growing together and they trust. If it's someone who gives you a side-eye when you say you're going to do your practice or your prayer or whatever it is for you, because spirituality has a full range, you know, you can be religious but not spiritual, spiritual but not religious, of Of course. And so what— let's look at what spirituality is to them, and can we find a bridge in that way? Maybe they are so passionate about nature and they light up when they're having— when they're walking through the forest with you. You tell me that they're not connected to spirit. Of course they are, by whatever name, right? They're connected in the forest in the same way that I might say I'm connected to spirit, but they are lit up. And really, is it more about just the languaging that we're using? What is it that we're defining as they are this and I am that? And is it creating more of a separation that doesn't need to really be there?

It's so interesting you're saying that because, um, one of my past relationships— I mean, I am deeply spiritual, as we've already said. Um, and the partner I was dating at the time, she, uh, is also very— she was also very spiritual, but in a different, completely different kind of way. And me having sort of a Catholic upbringing, as soon as I mentioned the word Catholic, like, she would cringe. She's like, I can't even hear that word. Like, it just brought up so much for her. And as we started talking it out with each other and getting into the deeper roots of the meanings of like, well, what are you getting out of you know, your experience of spirituality and how do you experience, you know, the Catholic faith and how do they work together? It was so interesting that we actually had more in common than what separated us apart. And, you know, she came in with sort of these, this sort of sense or belief that, you know, all Catholics are a certain way. And, you know, I could, I don't want to make the assumption here, but you also might think, you know, all atheists are a certain way or all Jews are a certain way or like we kind of hold these assumptions and I noticed it in myself in the relationship at times. And to get curious, as opposed to making the assumption, you might discover that like underneath all of what seems to be separating you, you actually have more in common. And, and we ended up finding we had a lot of similar shared beliefs where spirituality for both of us meant there is some form of a higher power that we don't really directly see in the physical form. But I think where we met at the same place is It was around this quote by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who says, "We're spiritual beings having this temporary human experience." And so just even that brought us together, and it was, "Oh, okay, we can be compatible here." And no, you might not come to a church with me on Sundays, and that's okay. I'm good. I was good with that personally. And she was like, "Well, I will never set foot in a church, just so you know." But I might go for a walk in the forest with her. And it was like we found our way. So I think there is still possibility to make a relationship work in this area. But if for some reason it doesn't feel like it's jiving or compatible, then you probably should end it. It would be my opinion. That's my opinion. So hopefully that answers this person's question. There's another question that came in around a similar kind of theme. So I'm going to read this one to you, Bonnie. It was actually addressed to me. I do a lot of work in the field of mindfulness, and so does Bonnie as well. We both are mindfulness practitioners, and this person's like, long-time teachers, long-time mindfulness. Yeah, you've been teaching this for a long time. How many years have you been teaching mindfulness?

Oh, I don't know. I've been on my own sort of spiritual exploration of, or my own exploration of that for over 20 years for sure, teaching for probably 15.

That's amazing.

Probably exploring it for 30, actually.

Wow, is that possible? That's a lot of—

yeah, that's a lot of practice, you know. And it's been a minute and it's still beginner's mind every time. It's— yeah, okay, I'm learning all the time about other people, about myself. This is the practice. And sorry to interrupt, what's the question?

Okay, so the question at hand, here we go. So, uh, this question says, Keith, I know you're working 'in the mindfulness field, and I'm wondering how mindfulness and connection to spirit might help me navigate a challenge that I'm going through in my relationship.' Interesting, and thank you for asking this question because you landed right at my heart center, my favorite topic. Um, and I think Bonnie, you'll have a lot to share on this too. I think maybe before we get into answering this question, it might be helpful to chat a little bit for those of you listening that don't know what mindfulness is, because I do find this can be quite a buzzword. And yet when you actually start getting into like, well, okay, mindfulness, what exactly is mindfulness? We hear it prescribed a lot in the wellness worlds. I notice like a lot of times therapists or counselors will say, you know, you're dealing with anxiety, just go practice mindfulness. And then you're like, well, okay, but What exactly is that?

So I mean, what's your definition, Keith?

My definition of it, what's funny, it's evolved over time. Initially, I was so confused about what mindfulness was when I first got into this field because I actually got asked to teach mindfulness before I really knew a lot about it, to be honest. I'm a recovering yes person, meaning I used to say yes to every opportunity. Several years ago, I was teaching yoga at the studio in Winnipeg where I live, and a student came up at the end of class and said, "Oh, you're a yoga teacher. Can you come teach mindfulness to this group of teachers at a school?" And me being a yes person said, "Of course I will." And then I ended up in this sort of professional development day with this group of teachers, and I didn't know a lot, so I went around and just asked people, "What does mindfulness mean to you?" Somebody said, "Oh, isn't that that practice where you just sit on a cushion and do nothing?" Why would I ever do that? Right? And someone else said, oh, we do that with our students. Everybody, all the students are given a raisin and they look at the raisin and they smell it and then they eat it. I was like, what is mindfulness? Like, I left that session so confused. But it set me out on a journey to figure out what this is. And I think currently the definition that's really landed for me is so simple yet so profound. And it comes from an author named Susan Kaiser Greenland. She says, Mindfulness is paying attention in the present moment with kindness to yourself, other people, and the world around you. And that really resonated for me as I slowed that down, paying attention in the moment. Like, even right now, I'm sure there's some of you listening to this podcast and you might have it on in the background, but you're actually not here. Like, you've left the building in your mind, you're thinking about other things. So how do we bring ourselves into the moment And then this other piece about how do I cultivate kindness towards myself? We spend so much time in our inner mind narratives just beating ourselves up. So how do we actually practice compassion for ourself? And this idea of as we start cultivating true compassion, it ripples out and affects the world around us. That's how I kind of see it. But I'm curious from you too, Bonnie, because there's many ways to define this practice.

Yeah, and like you, Keith, I've had lots of, lots of teachers in this, and certainly life has been my biggest teacher in mindfulness. And it is sort of like where yoga used to be the trendy theme, mindfulness has become the trendy theme, and I am all here for it. I— if it's a positive invitation to people's lives and that helps them to feel better about themselves and navigate the world with greater ease, I am here for it. And one of the ways that I sort of situate myself in it— and mindfulness continues to be really what I would say pointing-to instructions. It's not— it's bring curiosity, feel what you feel. As Jon Kabat-Zinn would say, come to your senses, you know, in this full catastrophe of our lives, come to our senses, notice how we're feeling, notice the sensations. Notice when our mind wanders, can we bring it back? And so those are sort of descriptors of a lived experience. And mindfulness in— again, I believe it was Jon Kabat-Zinn who— where I first heard it is really heartfulness. And it's, can I live my life with increasing degrees of heartfulness? So that brings in compassion, curiosity, a willingness to show up even when we're messy, and to be with people with this deep listening, deep listening. And there's, you know, 7 primary attitudes to mindfulness in Jon Kabat-Zinn's mindfulness program that is my sort of launch pad into a more formal mindfulness practice and teaching. But if we even let those sort of be in the background, it's how are we showing up? Are we allowing ourselves to fully show up and be with ourselves, be with another without trying to change it, trying to make it something better, trying to improve on it in some way? Doesn't mean we don't have goals. It doesn't mean we don't, We don't have sort of intentions to learn more and grow. In that process, however, can we fully honor where we're at without shaming or blaming or trying to be something else? And that goes with the people that we greet too. Can we honor them where they're at? Doesn't mean we don't have strong boundaries, but can we honor? And so heartfulness in all of the ways ultimately comes into In my world anyways, how I would imagine it and try my best to aspire to live it is remember the deep compassion that holds us all, the deep, you know, capital C compassion that is there riding the waves, the frothy waves through it all at the base of that vast ocean of being. This frothiness that often comes when our minds go off and our hearts are tight and feel broken And can I just be in it? Can I just be in it? Maybe not forever, 'cause change is inevitable, but can I be in it with kindness towards myself in this moment? Can I be present with what is arising without trying to push away or pull something else in to distract me from what's happening here, what's arising through me? One of the things I like to ask clients when they they, when I'm coaching them, is what's alive in you today? What's alive in you today? Let's launch from there. And so ultimately, I would say mindfulness is about heartfulness. It's about heartfulness.

I'm loving everything that you're saying and just thinking about this question that's come in. I mean, a lot of what you just said points to how mindfulness can be helpful within a relationship to solving a challenge or a problem that this person is having. In just what you just said, basically. The curiosity, um, as opposed to going to assumptions, I think is a major mindfulness practice that integrates into moments when we have challenge or problem in a relationship. Um, so often, you know, when somebody like rubs us the wrong way or like, you know, brings us into a state of frustration because they're not maybe doing it the way we would want to do it, or whatever the problem is, as opposed to reacting where you just want to like maybe lash out or you might want to like, I don't know, shut down and stonewall them. Can you, can you shift? Can you notice, oh, in this moment, whoa, I'm feeling a lot of anger. I'm feeling frustrated as an example. And can I turn this into curiosity and a deeper listening to myself and maybe even considering like what might be going on? For my partner right now as they're, you know, maybe struggling with doing it the way that I want to do it? Or what's going on with me that I'm trying to control how this person is showing up versus how I would do it? It's not how I would do it. You know, can I, can I have some compassion as well? So there's so much wrapped into this one practice that can be integrated and I think can be such a helpful way to navigate relationship challenges.

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A game changer in so many relationships if they just cultivated this one piece. Okay, maybe include compassion in this. But if they just cultivated this, and if they cultivated this one piece, it would— it's a game changer. Deep listening. Deep listening. And so it doesn't mean that you're stone cold and just there. You're fully— it's active. You're fully engaged because you're actually interested. This is your beloved. Uh, you know, we all came together for a reason. This is your beloved sitting across from you trying to express something, maybe very inarticulately for the way that you like to receive information, but they are doing their best given all the givens. And can we be with them without interrupting them, without trying to tell them how to feel or what's right or what's wrong? And again, boundaries of course come into play in certain circumstances. However, in most situations, it's, We don't listen to each other. We make an assumption. We have a story going on in our head about what they're thinking. And I love Brené Brown where she says to her partner, "So I got a story going on in my head. I just wanna check, is this true?" If we do just these little tweaks that turn out to be big transformative moments, see if it just doesn't make all the difference. See if rather than trying to defend ourselves while someone's speaking, oftentimes with couples, I'll, I'll, if I'm working with, I'll invite them to have a particular day of the week where once a week they set this time away from children or family or obligations where it's just for them. Set a timer, have a conversation. One person speaks for the first 10 minutes, 15, whatever. They get to choose. And then the other person speaks, but they don't interrupt each other. There's no, but you said, but that's not how it is in my view, but that's not really what happened. Well, it's all interpretive, right? We have these interpretive lenses in which we experience the world. Can I just be with my beloved even when, and especially when it's not comfortable? Like you could be, oh, feeling it all, wanting to interject and wanting to, prove your point that you are right, you are the most right in this relationship and they're wrong because we're hurt and we're living on an ex— a lifetime of experience in which we're, we're living through this conflict, whatever it is. Can I just be in it? Can I feel where do I feel that resistance in my body? Where does it show up? And then afterwards you can sort of explore, Oof, okay, what else is in there that is biting, you know, this bite in my belly or this crush and this squeeze of my heart center? What is going on there? Because this is a little piece and I'm having a big response to it, big reaction to it. A response would be, whoo, I can notice it. A reaction is I really just wanna reach across the, across the table and, you know, grab you and say, that's so not true. You're wrong and I'm right.

What you're saying right now is so important. And, you know, as we're speaking, I'm realizing that we're in some ways, I feel like I might be making mindfulness sound like, oh, it's just this easy practice that you just, you know, show up and just take a breath and then listen to your partner and everything will be okay. But in reality, when you're in a moment where you're like really heated or triggered or I love the distinction between response versus reaction that you're talking about, Bonnie. And I think it's over time, it's been practiced for me if I were to speak to this personally, because my natural tendency as a human is to want to react. And especially as a guy, like wanting to fix or change or problem solve. I mean, it's a very masculine, like we got to figure this out versus What, what's my response to this? Okay. Take a breath. Pause, slow down. Like, this is, this is like training. Like, this takes time to practice and integrate. But what I've been finding is, you know, to give myself a little grace around this. And I think anyone listening as well, to give yourself grace, because this isn't about getting it perfect. And there's a really primal part of us, like it goes back to like our primal brain, um, the amygdala in our brain that's like trying to keep us safe and protect us from apparent threat. So if our partner is out of sorts in some way, I mean, your amygdala might start naturally firing, going, oh my gosh, there's a threat here, there's a problem, I've gotta, I've gotta protect myself in some way. And it might turn you into a crazy person that wants to lash out and fight whatever's going on, or maybe it might want you to retreat. And just naturally you feel this sort of pull away from the problem, like, I'm just going to pretend it's not there. Maybe you don't know what to do and you're just completely brain fog confused, right? These are very natural responses when we're triggered and when there's an apparent threat. But to remember, like, often what appears to be an apparent threat, especially in relationships where your partner might be having a breakdown around something or they feel flooded or they're overwhelmed or they're not happy with something you're doing, we always, I always feel like it, it's more amplified in the moment. It feels like a bigger deal than it actually turns out to be. And if I just give myself a few moments to just pause and relax my nervous system, I realize everything's going to be okay. Like it's actually going to work out and I can just be here in a deeper state of listening and holding the space in the container. And naturally just that can be such an amazing gift to— if your partner's, you know, in a state of having a nervous breakdown or whatever, or maybe you are, it's a gift to ourself too. So that's something I just wanted to name because I think it's important to realize, like, this isn't about getting it perfect. It's actually natural for us in many ways to respond in kind of a, you know, fight, flight, or freeze state. I mean, it's just a natural response. So This is training to like remember and reprogram ourselves to go, oh, I can take a breath right now. I can hold the space. I can just deeply listen. It's going to be all right. That's been transformative in, in all relationships that I've been in.

And imagine a day where the first, um, response is not a reaction. Imagine that glorious day where, wow, maybe we'll have that little drop every once in a while where you actually drop into your heart. And go, wow, that must be intense to see the world that way or to feel that, rather than immediately trying to defend, you know, where you drop in and breathe, let some breath come in into that whole equation. We tend to hold our breath when we're in a stress response. So can we just breathe? And noticing too, in all of the conversation, where with the partner, if it's an intense conversation, just start at one of the practices. Can be as many times as your mind wanders off into some story, can I just notice it wandered and bring it back? And it become— it can become very natural as well as where the maybe reaction is really natural right now. This too can become really, uh, natural where you've practiced it over time. And once in a while, wow, You just notice you've left the building and okay, I'm coming back. Or your mind went off into some story about what your partner did last week that ticked you off. And you're gonna add that fuel to the fire and you go, nope, be right here. Come back to this moment and then begin again. And as many times as your mind wanders off into some other story, that's not true, I want my way, this is actually what happened. Nope, come on back here. Come into deep listening. It doesn't mean that you don't have your voice. You'll get your turn if that's the, I suggest that you both get your turn in sharing your experience and what's going on for you. But when someone else is speaking, and it might be somebody in an elevator, it might be somebody at the grocery store where we get to practice this, where we're just in deep listening. We don't have to always contribute in the way that we think, or it might be another day where we're actually sharing some communication. Absolutely. So it's finding when, when to speak and when to hold space. And over time we stumble our way through and it's a fierce practice. Fierce.

Yeah. Very. I love that you're naming all that. And just to reiterate this piece too, about presence versus being in a future thought or a past thought, like the narratives that can come up in our mind can really pull us out of the present moment. And not that it's always a bad thing. I mean, you need to plan your future. Sometimes you've got to think about what happened that you might not want to have happen again. With consciousness though, and I find often, especially in relationship, and for those of you listening that are going through breakups in particular, the mind can have a whole story going on about something that's not even reality, right? It's, it's not happening right now. So this idea of like the fear of, oh, what if I never find another partner? If you're single right now. Which has been one of mine at times, or, you know, you're thinking back about, oh, I shouldn't have said that in that relationship and then it wouldn't have ended, or these thoughts that pull us out of the moment, that what Bonnie's saying, like this idea of coming back into this time, this space, this reality in this moment, actually, if you can really feel your mind and your body right here in this moment, we're so safe and actually everything is happening perfectly on time in this moment. We're, we're so supported in this moment. And it's like this invitation to bring ourselves back into this time and space. And then the mind might want to wander and tell stories, and you, oh, there it goes again. Just bring it back. Every time we bring ourselves back, we have so much more clarity and presence and awareness so that we can navigate. And I find a lot of the clarity around how to navigate breakups comes when we're really present in the moment versus the story mode that so easily can happen when we're going through a breakup. And I'm shifting this question a little bit to those of you that are tuning in going, well, that's nice that they're in a relationship having problems, but I know a lot of you come to and listen because you're going through heartbreak right now. And I think mindfulness really does play into that space as well.

Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it doesn't mean that you have to live in the, the heart heart tear that you're in, the, you know, the heart hemorrhaging that, that you're feeling. If it's a heartbreak right now, you don't have to live there. It's do your best not to avoid it and gently turn towards it with titrated as best you can. You don't have to go full on. It's okay, I'm just going to breathe into this where I feel it, and then I'm going to carry on with my day. Or maybe there's another time where, okay, I'm going to sit with it for 5 minutes. With myself and everything that's coming up without judgment, without shame as bad. And you know what, even with that, allow it all to come in. Let the judgment in, let the shame in, in this other way. Allow ourselves to allow to have all of it there without trying to push away at all. And what I would say is befriend it. Befriend the judgment, befriend the shame, befriend all of the pieces, the parts that you go, how did I get here again? Befriend all of the parts, all the shoulda-couldas, all the stories. You know, as Mary Oliver would say, you know, greet them when they show up at your door, greet them, welcome them into the table for a cup of tea.

How do you greet all the parts without getting attached to the parts?

Yeah, that's a bigger conversation around being the witness, but it's giving a little bit of space. And this is where mindfulness can come in. It often comes in too. It's, it's not denying what's going on, but it's creating a little bit of space. So it's— if you're a movie lover, it's, yeah, you are the actor in the film, and you're the actor that shows up at the door, and you're one that greets them at the door, and you're the one who actually writes the screenplay and is the director and the producer of, of that screenplay. And so the beauty is, is that you have control over all those aspects— how you greet someone, how you greet yourself, the story you tell yourself, the direction you take it, the how— how much do you want to spend on this investment of this story? And is it a story that you want to spend your life invested in?

You know, I don't know, I once had a question, but no, it's good. I'm a movie lover, so Yeah, I, I once had somebody on, um, another podcast that I host called Let's Connect, and we were talking about this theme of, uh, stories and the stories we tell ourselves. And one of the best quotes on that podcast that I ever heard from a guest was, you are the story you choose to tell yourself. And I thought that was such a powerful statement because it's so true that whatever we're thinking about and the story we're telling ourselves is what's going to become our reality. Like, our thoughts become things. So I love this part of mindfulness too, is the awareness of what am I choosing to focus my attention on in this present moment right now, and what is the story that I'm telling. And if this story that I'm telling isn't serving me, like, how can I shift the story? And, um, this practice is so dynamic in this way of like, I mean, I often in workshops when I'm leading mindfulness workshops, we'll have people tune into like a couple of half-finished sentences like, work is, like, how would you fill in the blank? Or my relationship status is, or money is. And it's really interesting to think that anything that you focus your attention on, like money, work, relationship, I mean, it's just a neutrality, but how you fill in the blank at the end of it is the current story you're telling about it. So if you're saying, you know, my relationship is falling apart, or my relationship status is like, don't even go there, it's not working. That's a choice of a story that we're choosing to tell ourselves. So this idea of like, if I want to shift my story, how do I do that? And I think part of it is like telling a new story, obviously, which can be really challenging because there's a lot of resistance when we start, you know, telling a new story. It's like, no, well, that's not actually the reality or the truth. Like, we have to almost abandon what we know and dream into this idea that, well, no, I want to choose to tell a new story. And then I think there's something powerful about also taking it not just in, in the mind space of like imagining that to be true, but it's also like taking it into our unconscious mind and like feeling that story to be true. Like, well, okay, my relationship status is next to nothing, it's not working out, If I want to shift that to, you know, I'm attracting an incredible partner into my life that meets me where I'm at, and they're committed and they're compatible, can I close my eyes and feel into that space and even imagine it? It's— even though it might not be right now, like, imagining that and feeling that story to be real. I think there's so much to that part of this practice that can be integrated too when navigating through relationship. What's coming up for you, Bonnie?

Just the piece around, and you pointed to it, around we are fabulous storytellers, fabulous, and maybe 10% of them are true, you know, fabulous storytellers. And what if, you know, if you're the director of the film, you write a new screenplay for yourself. Again, what are the movies you're wanting to live in your life, as you were saying? And oh, we actually are the producer of those. We live in— we can live in a family with 10 kids. Everyone will have a different screenplay out of that family. They will tell a different story. One might be a horror story, one will be an action story, another one will be a romance, the other one, you know, You pick it. The other one's a comedy. I wanna be part of that one. The other one's a comedy. Yeah. Some, yeah. So the beauty in all of that and where mindfulness weaves in is we have a choice in the stories that we perpetuate, the stories that we give energy to. We have a choice in that. We have a choice in how we greet others and how we greet ourselves. And we have to be present to do it. And, um, like you were saying, it's not that we don't have goals or intentions. Yeah, of course. Of course. And to get there, we have to live here. We have to be here to get there.

Yeah.

So let's start with here. And can we do it with as much compassion as possible for ourselves, for others along the way. We are all— and I think every podcast one of us bring this up— as Ram Dass would say, we are all just walking each other home. You know, it's so true. And sometimes we pick each other up, sometimes we pick ourselves up, sometimes we call a friend and say, I'm in the mud. I know, again, same story, different face. I know. And you dust yourself off, you own it, and you say, okay, what did I learn from that? How do I choose to move forward? And it's not discounting how heartbreaking it is and how much— oh, how much it hurts at the time and how emotionally irregulated we can get in the process and all the messiness that comes with heartbreak and and then we can open again.

I love this.

Begin with ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. And for those of you listening, if you're looking for some support in this space as well, um, and you're just tuning in perhaps for the first time, I just wanted to highly encourage you to come check out the Way Through Community, which is what really initiated this podcast as well. We have a brand new community that's starting called Way Through. You can find out about it at waythrough.com. And it's a place where people come to have some support with professional coaches and also the power of a community going through relationship challenges, especially relationship breakups. And we're here to really support each other and walk this, this each other home, as Bonnie was saying. It's a chance to be on the journey with each other and to really build a community that is all about Yeah, working together to, to come into a better awareness of the present moment. And I think a lot of the work that we're doing in Way Through is mindfulness-based, especially the work Bonnie and I are doing there. And, um, so I just wanted to encourage you to go check that out, especially if you're going through a challenging time in a relationship right now and you're looking for a little extra support. Um, this is a place that you can come to really find that support. And it's— I love that it's not AI-powered apps or communities. Like, we are real people, um, here to support you. I just love that. So with that all being said, um, please stay in touch with us. Thank you so much for joining us today on The Way Through Podcast. Bonnie, thanks for being here and all the love and powerful mindfulness practice that you bring into the world. And for those of you listening, if you have questions that are emerging from this conversation or other conversations, perhaps you have a burning question about relationship that you want an answer to, um, please go to waythrough.com, and, uh, there's a space there where you can ask your questions, and we will answer them on the next episode of the Way Through podcast. So thank you for being here, everybody, and have an amazing week, and we'll see you on the next episode of Way Through.

Thanks, Keith. Thanks, everybody.