How to Navigate On/Off Again Relationships (EP. 2)

Hi everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Way Through Podcast. We're so excited that you've been able to join us today. This is a, a podcast where we speak all things relationships, in particular people going through breakups. Especially, we're here to support you and to discuss, uh, your questions and topics with our amazing coaches and Drew, our our amazing social media communications person on our team who is the wild card amongst all of us. And today we're gonna be spending the podcast just entertaining some of the questions that have come out of our community so far. And a question that I think really popped out to me that I'd love for us to have a discussion about is this question from one of our members that says, How do you know when it's time to call it in a relationship? I've been on again, off again with my partner, and I just don't know when it's actually going to be time to call it.

Holy cow, that is steamy. That's a spicy question.

It really is spicy steam.

It's very common question.

Yeah, we sure we want to go there.

Question.

I think that's a good question though. Like, that's, uh, I feel like a lot of people struggle with that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm curious about this idea of like how you know when it's time to call it, like the on-again off-again pattern that seems to happen in relationships for people. And it's interesting that it's like you've gone through a breakup and then you somehow decide to go back into the relationship again. And when you can get into that pattern or cycle of it just happening over and over again, it's like, how do you know when it's time to actually call it if it's getting again rocky? Are you just going to go back into that same pattern again? I'm curious if anybody has any experiences of this or wants to share insights about, like, for this person that's struggling with this right now, what would you tell them?

Uh, I can, I can start if you want.

Yeah, Jess, let's drop it.

Jess, I've had a long history of these types of relationships, especially like years ago before I did this work, more work on myself to free myself from these patterns. But, um, something that I see in my own life and also with my clients is that the message of whether to stay or go gets louder and louder and louder and louder. So you may not know right away. The water is pretty murky, especially if maybe there's some work to do on yourself first to make sure, like, is there anything within you that you can work on to help shift the dynamic? Um, and you really want to do that work and get to a place of neutrality if you can, rather than deciding in an activated state or a state of like fight or flight, we're done kind of things. A lot of people do that, but But in my experience, it gets louder and louder and louder. So for me, when I was younger, I used to need like, like I wouldn't listen to the little whisper. I wouldn't listen to the, you know, nudges that kept happening over and over again. I needed like a 2x4 to my head to get me to pay attention to this. Like, this can't keep going, you know. So it takes what it takes, but it— there's nuances there too. So I'd love to hear from— I think Courtney wanted to jump in, so I'd love to hear what you're gonna say, Courtney.

You know what comes to mind here for me is I think that so often the frame around this is there's something about this that's a weakness, right? Like, you're staying around this, this cycle, this dynamic, because there's a weakness in you, or you haven't figured something out. And I want to reframe that because I think, well, that can be true, that oftentimes it's actually our resilience that keeps us in, because we're like, you know, strategically trying to find a way to make something work, because maybe our heart has been connected with this person. And our resilient natures as humans, we're trying to figure it out, trying to adapt, trying to find our way. And it's that human, that age-old human need for belonging, right? So I just want to give us all a break, first of all, who've been in that position of staying in that cycle, because you're doing something very, very human. And to me, that breaking point is— there's a couple things. One is when it no longer is life-giving for you as the person, right? When it's like taking from you rather than like lifting you up as a human. If you feel like you are shrinking more than you are growing. And then another big one for me is, is repair present or not? So when you're in that cycle, it can be so devastating, right, to be in those cycles of conflict and in and out of connection. And so is the repair taking place after that cycle, or is it absent and you're actually being traumatized?

Yes. That's so big.

That sort of leapfrogs right into, am I feeling like I'm doing all the emotional heavy lifting in this relationship? Is there— are we growing together or further apart in this relationship? Like, is there a commitment to growing together from both parties? Am I more, what I would say, am I more afraid to be out of the relationship than in it? Because of, like you said, Courtney, we all here, all of us have such resilience. Yeah, we can navigate through just about anything. And so is that overlaying and keeping us stuck in that way that, yeah, I can deal with this because the alternative is either too scary or too hard, because it can be excruciating to leave a relationship. I know when I was in my 20s, I was in a really unhealthy, abusive relationship, and it just whittled at my self-esteem and whittled at my self-esteem. And so then you start to doubt what you know inherently to be true until the relationship and the person in that relationship, if it's in that sort of scenario, starts to treat you worse than you actually believe about yourself. And sometimes that can— that bar can be pretty low if your self-esteem has been really whittled away at. But at some point, they'll say or do something that just levels you emotionally, mentally, sometimes unfortunately physically, where you just go, okay. And for me, it took me actually thinking, oh, I might actually die in this relationship. And that was my leapfrog out. And, but that was the frog in the boiling water, whereas most of the time it's like this frog in the pot of water that the heat just gets turned up slowly so you don't even know that you're cooking in there. You don't even know that your spirit is dying in that smoldering pot of water. And so sometimes it takes a jolt, and I agree with you, Jess, that ideally we come to a place of neutrality where we're, working at what are the hooks for us, where's the shadow lie, how am I contributing to this drama. And sometimes you just gotta leapfrog out of it. It's too dangerous for our well-being, whether it's mentally, emotionally, physically.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, whenever I speak to— I'm not speaking to like abusive relationships like that, like that's a whole— that's a different realm. But I'm so happy that you brought that up because I've been there too. And I think maybe more people than care to, you know, maybe it's not very commonly shared about. So I think it's really important to share that. Like you said, it's like the frog in boiling water and it happens to people. And I love what you said, Bonnie, about when the person treats you worse than you feel about yourself, but then if you really don't feel too great about yourself, then you're gonna, you're gonna really have a high pain tolerance. For whatever that is in that relationship. That's such a good point.

Wow. As I'm listening to this, I'm also thinking about what a wide range of answers could come to this question about how do you know when it's time to call it? Because I think every relationship has a different dynamic going on to it. And, you know, I also sort of take it to this place of what is best for the relationship itself. Like, if you could take yourself your subjective self out of the equation for a moment and just kind of sit in the space of the actual relationship. Like, what does this relationship need in order to thrive? And if you were taking it from that perspective, like, I would be sitting in like, well, maybe this relationship does need this to end because it's just— it's not compatible, for example, or it's just not working. Or maybe this relationship needs us to dig in a little bit more. Or maybe this relationship needs me to show up in a certain way, um, in order for me to grow. So I think there's a real discernment of sitting in that, what I call the third entity, or that like the relationship voice. Um, yeah, that's, that's what comes up for me around that question. And so the person that wrote in, I think it's really, uh, it would be interesting to sit in the space of like the relationship you have with your partner right now. Um, what would be in the best service for, for both these people? Like if you were looking at them objectively, what would be best for both these people right now? For their, their growth, you know. And sometimes the answer is, well, we need to stay in it and we need to work on ourselves in relationship with each other. And I think sometimes the answer is we need to let each other go. And at the end of the day, I think that can be very hard because that's— both answers, I think, come back to this place of love. And love, you can't really contain love. It's like, what is love wanting here? Sometimes love really does mean letting go. And if this pattern keeps happening over and over again in this cycle of like on again, off again, what are we not paying attention to? Like, is there something here that we need to look at that's not serving us? And, and what is love inviting us to respond, or how is love inviting us to respond? That's what comes up for me right now.

I would just say to that briefly too, Keith, that I love that bringing love into the story of it, because we can get so attached to love is What this person brings into my life rather than can I love myself first and allow that to overflow into any relationship, love relationship of whatever form. And also what is the love that holds all of us, this big love, higher love that holds all of us through all of the mess and muck and highs and lows and everything in between. And we can spend a lifetime trying to project that onto another person. Where what we've been looking for is already here supporting us in all of the ways that matter most.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Drew, what's your sense of all of this shenanigans?

I'm, um, taking in a lot from all of you coaches, but I, I feel like for me personally, it— as a human, it becomes so easy to idealize a situation or a person and sort of not look at the reality of the situation because, A, it's too messy and uncomfortable that you just don't want to do it, and B, you would much rather have this like idealized version of this person in front of you. And maybe that's the person that you first met. And I think for me, that's the hardest part because you knew who they were when you met them. And what, what kind of person they were. But obviously, as time goes on and things happen, you change, and sometimes that means you grow apart. And I think it can become so difficult to, like, let go of that bond because you're just, like, idealizing what it was like before. And I know personally, for me, uh, who has been in, like, one of those, like, on and off again relationships for me, it was like I just kept envisioning, like, what this person was like when we first started dating. And so much had happened to both of us, not just her but myself too, that we just weren't the same people anymore. And our beliefs weren't the same, and what we wanted wasn't the same anymore, and we just weren't aligned. But we, we desperately craved to be in alignment still, but it was almost like what everyone else was saying. It was like stunting our growth and sort of like keeping us in this like very volatile pattern of, you know, just not growing and not recognizing like what our own individual wants and needs were at the time.

I could so relate to that. I feel like so many of the relationships that have ended for me One in particular, just very, very recently, um, it was definitely that pattern where we actually broke up once, um, several months ago for the reason that we just felt like we were in different places. My partner wanted to like explore other relationships and was curious about this whole concept of an open relationship, and I definitely wasn't. For me, I was like, that's not going to work. And it was this sort of conversation about, well, you're you're welcome to go explore that if that's what you need to explore, because to me, that, that is love, to let somebody be who they need to be without me interfering with who they are. But for me, I knew very clearly that that wasn't going to work for me. But then my partner came back and was like, you know what, now that you've said that, I choose you and I'm committing to this. This is worse. You're my person. I want to be with you. I can't imagine being with anybody else. But we were also in different life stages, so Um, 3 months after that, the same pattern came back again just recently, where it was like my partner, I think, still really wants to explore and figure out who they are, and they're not as clear about what they're looking for as I am, after me going through many relationships and breakups and just getting clearer each time about what I'm looking for. And not that either one's good or bad or right or wrong, but, um, we kind of had a very a beautiful but sad ending because it was like, the truth is, if we just keep playing this pattern out over and over again and trying to make this work, my partner is not ready to be in relationship with me, and I'm looking for something different than they are. So out of love, we both agreed, like, we have to let each other go, let this go for now. It is so easy to talk about it, like, in the head, but to actually feel the letting go of something like this, it's hard, especially if you're you know, very committed and, you know, honoring each other. It's like, oh my gosh, to honor each other is to let each other go. Wow, is that ever— that's a painful thing.

Geez.

Oh yeah.

So Keith, do you mind me asking, Keith, that when ruminating thoughts come in and you're sort of maybe wafting in the good parts of the relationship or the, the missing or feeling lonely or whatever, what do you do with that? How do you navigate through that for the people who are listening here? What— how can you help?

Well, that's a timely question for me because I'm right in the thick of it, honestly. Like, to be quite candid, like, we just ended our relationship 3 days ago.

And look at you showing up. Yeah, again and again.

Yeah, well, it's not easy. And, um, I've been— I mean, there's so many different things that I've been integrating into, like, practicing what I talk about on in this community and on this podcast. But, um, I think initially the one thing that was really helpful was to just let myself completely cry and just be sad, like just be really sad. It's okay. And, um, in the past I think my tendency was to go into a place of, um, just sort of suppressing that and just like getting really busy. For me it was work. I think everybody's got a different sort of distraction, whether it's, you know, work, or it could be drinking, or it could be you know, just going out and partying. But, um, this time in particular, I was like, I'm just— I'm gonna let myself just be really sad. But those thoughts, to answer your question, Bonnie, that keep coming up around, oh, like, I wonder what it would be like if we stayed together. I wonder what my ex is doing right now, and is she thinking of me? And is this—

I—

one thing that's been really helping, um, is just putting out— whenever I get sort of a— how do I put it— whenever I sort of get a thought that comes in that's not helpful for me, I actually just say it out loud. That's not helpful right now. So it's like these sort of thoughts like, um, yeah, I wonder what she's thinking about me right now. I wonder if she's on Instagram at the same time I am. It's like, that's not helpful right now. I should go check her, um, or, you know, just to see her status online. If she's here, it's like, it's not helpful right now. What's helpful right now is for me to keep turning my attention towards myself. So that's been helpful. And not that the reminiscing is going to go away, I think it's going to come up and come up, and eventually I think it will fade if I just keep reminding myself that's not helpful right now. Just back to reality of right here and what you have input, impact, and control over. I can't control what's going on with my ex. I'm so sad that we broke up, and I do care about her so much, and I wonder what she's doing, but is that helpful? I have— it has absolutely no relevance right now to me. What's relevant is I need to look after myself and heal and feel all these emotions. So anyone else want to share on that?

Oh, I just— what I love about that is that you're, you're mothering or parenting yourself by saying that's not helpful right now. That's exactly what I would say to my kids if they were saying something in a moment that was inappropriate. I would say it's not helpful right now. So I absolutely love that that wiser part of yourself is sort of sitting on your shoulder and noticing what's going on and those unhealthy patterns as you're live going through it, right? And then I wanted to offer one thing, like, as you were talking about the idea of like future compatibility and that lack of alignment, one of the questions that I know I've asked myself is, if I were in this relationship, and nothing were to change 2 years from now, Would I be okay with that? So I want to offer that to the listeners right now. Right. And that question, sometimes, you know, it'll hit people like a ton of bricks. Like, yes, I know the answer. And other times the answer is murky. Right. And so sometimes for me, I'll notice like there's a part of me that will be like, yeah, of course I would be here because I want to avoid the discomfort of anything different because I don't know what's 2 years from now, right? And then another part of me that will like rally and be like, well, heck no, I wouldn't be here, right? This like righteous, angry part. And so I like to sit down with all those versions of myself with that question and say, okay, like, talk to me, people. Tell me what's going on here. And that gives me a little bit more self-insight as to why I might be hanging out in something that's not fully aligned or fully good for me. Or the relationship.

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I love that. I love you said that, Courtney, because years ago I was in a relationship and I was working with the coach that actually trained me in subconscious reprogramming. And she— and I was in a relationship with a guy going through a divorce. It was like a shit show. He was not available, of course. Do not recommend. And she said to me, accepting him exactly as he is in this moment Does that work for you? And you cannot lie to yourself with that question. Like, you actually can't lie to yourself. So I was like, no, it doesn't actually work for me. But, you know, it's, it's a lot. And it brings up so much because we're connected, we're attached to like our partners physically, mentally, emotionally. And then when if we're separating or they're gone, you're at— and you're broken up, then it leaves you with whatever that brings up for you, you know, past traumas, past grief, because new grief activates old grief. So it can be really overwhelming. And I think another thing that I just wanted to share, which we've talked about before on some of the other episodes, but just during the hardest times of my life, just taking it one moment at a time, like you were saying, Keith, not going to— into, okay, what's she doing? Okay, the mind's gonna do what the mind's gonna do. We can't control it, the monkey mind. It's just gonna— but can we come back into this moment again and again and again and again? And then for me lately, it's been like, what is supportive for my inner child? Like, because I might be drawn to a certain energy, like talking about repeating the same patterns over and over, being drawn to like someone who's not really good for me, but my inner child is like, I don't like this actually. So That's a new gauge for me lately, is like having a picture of myself as a little girl on my mirror and like checking, like, how is she feeling about this right now?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that you're saying this, Jess, because the other night when the breakup happened and I watched my girlfriend leave, I came home and I was just like bawling. And I don't know why I was drawn, but I was drawn to a mirror that I have like this full-length mirror in my bedroom, and I just sat there and I just weeped, and I like looked at myself, and I actually was thinking the same kind of thing you were just referencing of just like the inner child, like the youngest part of me that just feels so sad right now. And I just talked out loud to myself while I was crying going, "You're gonna get through this. It's gonna be all right." It's like, "You're safe" was a big one, 'cause I noticed too, going through the breakup. And I think a lot of us, and a lot of you listening, will probably relate to this. When you go through a breakup, you don't feel safe. Like, you— your whole world gets shaken up, and you're like, now what? Like, it's so unpredictable. So I just kept reminding this younger part of me that was so sad within me, as I was looking in the mirror, I'm like, you're safe, you're safe. And it just brought me so much calm in the body, and I just— okay. So I want to— that's really emphasize that.

Thank you so much. Thank you for just sharing so vulnerably when I know you're, you're right in it right now. And it's just so beautiful to come here and, and use your experience to be of service to people. Like, thank you.

Oh, you're welcome. I don't normally do this. It's very uncomfortable, but I'm also realizing that this is all part of our healing journey as a community here. And Same goes for all, all of you and everybody also listening and people that are writing in asking questions about their relationships. It's, um, it's just all so relevant and it's why we exist as Way Through. And we should chat about that briefly here, is that there is a community. If you're listening to our podcast for the first time, we have a community called Way Through beyond this podcast. Um, as coaches, we're here to, to serve people going through relationship breakups, and clearly some of us are going through them as well right now, and we're still showing up to coach. Um, but it's a community where those of you going through heartbreak or relationship issues and you need, um, some extra clarity or support, um, this community and app is here to help you. So please come check us out at waythrough.com. Um, just a little infomercial for you, but I think it's a really great resource if you're listening and you're going through heartbreak in a challenging time.

So I think what a beautiful— if I can just add What a beautiful reflection for anyone who's exploring this podcast or the app. That here we are, there's 5 of us who have gone through the ups and downs of all the relationship trenches, gathered the wisdom along the way, are in various stages of that at this point too. And like I said earlier, we keep showing up. So we keep gathering all of our resources, inner and outer, to show up in this moment and be able to speak to it in a way that hopefully is helpful to other people. Maybe they'll feel or see themselves in one of us or use it as a launchpad in their own relationship. So sort of this proof that you don't have to have it all figured out. To be in your life in a fuller way and actually support people in a fuller way. When we go through things, it doesn't mean that we can't then either be there for clients or friends or family. We gather what we've learned from our own experience and bring that into the conversation with whoever we connect with. Can be someone on the street that we pass by and can tell that they're going through a hard time? We— can we bring empathy into that exploration? And beyond that, can we open to compassion? Because I think as, as caregivers or support people in other people's lives, we can get lost in bonding in the wound of, of some of the, the swampland, the, the juiciness of, of relationship and the heartache of it. And this sort of capacity that we continue to cultivate for ourselves, can we actually open it beyond empathy that triggers that part in our brain that we go, yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been there.

I feel it.

It triggers, we feel it all over again. Then can we expand it even more to what I call big C compassion? Can we open it to compassion, this sea of compassion that actually has the capacity, even though we're going through our own stuff, to hold space for another person without trying to fix them, them or make it go away. We can actually be present with them, which is it— just someone's compassionate presence beyond the empathy where we're caught in the mud with them. Can I create space and know from that place? Then we're knowing they're resilient too. They have all of these capacities within them. We can help to reflect that and be a support, but we don't have to bond in the wound with them and get caught in that cauldron of emotion.

And just so I want to say, as you're saying that, Bonnie, like, this community that we've created isn't a place to just come and, you know, there is a ventilating, uh, ventilating section where you can just vent about everything going on. But we also, um, want to encourage you to come to this community if you're going through heartbreak or relationship issues, to be with people that will hold you in that space, um, with compassion, as Bonnie's saying. And I think it's really powerful to be in a community of people that have gone through the experiences in their own ways and are coming together to like rise each other up. And I think there's real healing in being in community and having these kind of conversations. And, you know, some days you're up, some days you're down. My dad says this a lot. He's like, life is like a toilet seat. Sometimes you're up and sometimes you're down. And it's so true. And so where do we go, right? And I think often when we're going through relationships, especially the endings of them, um, people that, you know, in our regular life, they get very tired of hearing the same story over and over again. They're like, oh my goodness, how many times do I have to hear about this breakup? But at Way Through, there's people going through it right at the same time as you. And then there's coaches also, some of them are going through it, but also, um, here to support and to, to bring insight and to help, uh, turn the attention back inwards towards how do we heal ourselves and how do we collectively heal. So Mm-hmm.

Bonnie, I love how you bring the compassion into the room. Like, ultimately, yes, we want to get to that point where we're able to, like, see that other person with so much love and compassion. And there's one red flag I want to raise here, or maybe it's an unpopular opinion, I don't know. But I think so oftentimes we use unconditional love as an excuse to stick around and to not face the reality. Right? And so there's a difference to me between like, we're holding compassion for the other person's experience and exactly where they're at, and being presence to that. And unconditional love is not, I stay here to enable an unhealthy dynamic and to take myself down in the process. Right? And I think, yeah, and sometimes this also can be wrapped up in our own like spiritual ideology. So I guess I just want to caution listeners to ask yourself, like, are you using that as an excuse to stay? And if so, just remember that, you know, love has many— it's vast, right? And one version of love is fierce love. It's the love where we face the difficult thing, we go towards the discomfort of the— of potentially the breakup to do the right thing, which allows us to be in love. With ourselves and with more people in such a bigger way than we even know is possible in an unhealthy relationship.

Beautiful.

That is so powerful.

Yeah, thank you.

Spiritual bypassing is a real deal. Yeah, we can, uh, you know, pretend that we're perceiving it from a higher level of consciousness.

Yes.

And, uh, and really all that we're doing is getting caught in our head and, and avoiding what we we need to really turn towards with compassion. Yeah, but we can avoid in all sorts of juicy and good ways, especially for those of you and all of us who are on a conscious path. We can use spiritual bypassing when things get uncomfortable.

Yeah, yeah. And I, I think too, like, the take-home here for me, again, it comes down to don't avoid the hard thing. The hard thing might be either it's leaving that person in the relationship, or it's facing the conflict with the person in the relationship to see if you've exhausted all the possibilities for growing together, right? Either way, you have to face the difficulty. When you don't do that, that's when you get in that really nasty spiral. And then 10 years later, there you are. Uh, you know, nothing's changed and now you're stuck in a bigger thing to dig yourself out of.

Yeah, I love it.

Isn't it interesting that we're willing to, to be in that spiral of the hard thing every day rather than sort of rip the Band-Aid off, take a look and see what's really going on, and make one— that hard one choice to either fully commit or change the dynamic or whatever it is, or to move out of the relationship? Because it's at least familiar. We don't like change. This uncomfortable every day is more comfortable and, well, it's more, we perceive it's more comfortable. It's not really, it's excruciating, but it's familiar. And so rather than hopping into or ending something and moving into something else or reconfiguring a relationship, we're willing to sacrifice ourselves to do the hard thing every moment of the day rather than can I just have one, this difficult moment Not that there won't be difficult moments along the way, but to make this one big decision that is difficult rather than to do these little decisions every day that slowly, again, frog in the water, right?

Yeah.

As the heat gets turned up. Yes.

I have a mentor who also once said, every day you choose whether or not you're staying in the relationship. And that's the real deal. When you're that presence with it, where every day you're making the conscious choice, I'm here today. I'm choosing to be fully here today, right? That is real, because then you become very honest with yourself when you start to notice, oh, today I actually don't want to show up in it. Tomorrow I don't want to. The next day I don't want to, right? Then we get real closer to what's true for us.

Yeah, it's tough though. Like, I, I know I've been open about this in this podcast, but I've struggled with love addiction things where like it was impossible like impossible for me to leave something that was harmful in the past until I did enough work to be able to hold myself through. And I got outside support, and I did a lot of nervous system work and trauma healing and all these things. But so it can sound like, you know, why, why would we stay in this uncomfortable— comfortable, uncomfortable thing for so long? But if we don't know another way or we don't know how to leave, then we often need outside support. I needed a 12-step program to help myself finally shift. Um, so it's, it's complicated, you know. But I love what you said, Courtney. I think Courtney said it. I'm like, who said what? Um, but about the patterns, because if we're having the same pattern show up like throughout different relationships, or even in our— the same relationship, but over and over again the same pattern showing up, then it's really life showing us what needs our attention and needs our healing. Because whether we stay and work it out, you know, in this dynamic or the next, it's going to keep showing up over and over and over again. And as one of my mentors, Alma, she always says, life is very generous, and it will just keep showing us— it will keep showing us over and over again any place and space where we're actually just not yet free, right? So it's kind of amazing, the divine orchestration of all of it. But when you're in it, you're not going to think that. You're going to think this is the worst thing ever. But, you know, it's interesting. And then another thing with the breakup stuff that I notice, both for myself and my clients, is like so many times we can internalize it and make it mean something about us, right? And it'll really crank up because we're, we're in deep grief or deep sadness. It can crank up the stories in our head that, well, maybe I'm not worthy, maybe I'm not lovable, maybe someone isn't ever going to choose me, maybe I'm not going to have what I want, blah, blah, blah, right? Whatever version. And it'll, it can really turn the volume up on those things. And what it really is, is more a frequency thing. Like if you're not on a similar energetic frequency or channel, like if one person's doing a ton, a ton of work and the other person's not, eventually you're having so much of a discrepancy in energy that it's just going to break. Yeah, because it can't, it's like the laws of quantum physics, you know. So thinking of it like that can be a little more helpful than really internalizing it or personalizing it when a breakup happens. Because I know that's been something that I've had to really, really work on, you know, having a very unconventional path and like not ever being married and blah, blah, blah, you know, societal, societal measures, but like it definitely was a thing I had to work, work on and work through.

So yeah, I'm just thinking about, um, this question that initially came in about like, how do you know when it's time to call it when I'm in sort of an on-again, off-again pattern going on and it doesn't seem to be working? I'm curious in the final part of this conversation about calling it. I mean, I think that that is also another question, is like that spins out of this is, you— let's say you know it's time to call it. How do you call it? That is a courageous act for most of us to, like— unless it's obvious, glaringly obvious that this is not going to work out and we're done. But how do you call it out in a way that— I mean, it's going to break your heart no matter what, but how do you do it with grace? Or is there a right way to call it tastefully?

I think I think, well, if you're, if you're navigating in a conscious way, which you may or may not be, or may or may not have the tools, but if you are, then I think you'll probably have had multiple things come up, conversations. Like, it won't be out of the blue a lot of the time, but sometimes it might be. Like, I had one breakup that was pretty out of the blue where it was someone who was just really in a people-pleasing pattern, and it just happened, you know, out of the blue. But now looking back, I can see, oh, there was a lot of things that maybe were suppressed, that weren't expressed, or whatever. But I think, you know, it's something that you've had conversations about, and then it gets to a point like it did with you, Keith, where it's like, wait, we are not on the same page. Like, what are we— what can we do when that's— like, it's not actually loving for either one of us to stay in this. And it's never going to be easy, and there's never the right time, and there's really not really the right words to say, but there's more conscious, loving, compassionate ways to go about it, I think. And I think all of us are here, like, if anyone's listening and not knowing how to navigate, we're here to help you with that. And getting outside support is really helpful, right? Like, I'll work with couples all the time. They don't know, should I stay, should I go? Or I'll work with one half of a couple. And so we'll do some work around that and help them to get really clear. Before they make, you know, an impulsive decision or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, that decision to have that conversation, I just want to invite people to, again, get the support you need to be really clear about it, because when you do bring up the potential to break up a relationship, it is like popping a bubble for the couple. And if that's your intention, great. That's it will be achieved. But if your intention is actually just to sort it out and process it, it can cause a lot of relational harm. So if you wanna use it as like testing the waters, I personally, of course depends on the situation, but I would warn people against that before being really clear about it and getting the support you need to vet out where you really wanna go with it.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And when you do know it's time to call it, I think if you— if it's hard to practice this, but for me, I think composure is really important. Um, if you're going to end it in a heated way, you're just going to cause more drama and harm to the relationship and the after of not getting the closure that you want. And so I, I think it's really helpful before ending it, or while you're in the middle of ending it, is really to keep in mind, like, what is the most loving way to do this? And let love lead it and to stay composed. Um, because I have had relationships in the past that ended where I left very angry or very heated because I just was like, wow, how dare this person do that? And, you know, I kind of made myself a victim, not in this current one, but in a previous one. And I think like there's something to be said if it's— if possible, like take the high road and stay composed and leave as loving as you can, if possible.

Yeah. Yeah. And life gets messy and things can get messy. So just working on, just working on regulating your nervous system day to day is really helpful because then you can grow your capacity for when the storms come. Right. Because they will. So I'm someone who had basically no capacity when I was, you know, years ago, younger, whatever. And I would just get triggered and react and create a big mess. And I had no agency over any of it. And now, thank God, because I've done some more work to grow my capacity, I can hold myself through, through the storms coming up and like, okay, breathe. Like, pause. Pausing is one of the most valuable tools that I could ever give to anybody when you're navigating this stuff. Like, noticing when you're triggered and pausing and then getting centered and then coming back, like you said, Keith, because it's the only way to navigate these things. Otherwise, we will just make a bigger mess and then there's more to clean up. And if that's you, that's okay. We can help you with that too, because listen, life is messy. It's okay.

That's a great point. It is messy. And this isn't about getting anything perfect. Yeah, I think however things unfold in whether in the ending of a relationship or whatnot. I think it's, it's on time. If this is the bigger realization I have, is that it's on time. It's always on time, even if it doesn't feel like it's on time. There's something for our growth and our evolution that we needed, and possibly why this has to end if it, if it's ending, um, or why you're staying with it, you know.

And paying attention too, I would say, to those quiet whispers that are coming from inside the house, inside of ourselves. This is our house. Increasingly paying attention. So if we continue to get the message, why am I here?

Mm-hmm.

Emma, why am I not feeling expansive today? Like, why am I feeling diminished in this relationship? Or, wow, our heart is hurting because we're feeling a certain way. And again, Keith, it's right timing. It sounds simple to say from our head that, oh, it's easy to just walk away away from a relationship. It's— if there's a process, there's right timing, and we can just start to pay attention to those inner whispers, and that's where some of that clarity will come. And so spending time with ourselves in the forest, surrounding ourselves with these incredible communities that are possible there, um, and also knowing that if the time comes, if the time comes where leaving a relationship is where you're at and what seems really clear for you, it's knowing that all that we can control is our response to it. We can come in, as you guys are all saying, with a certain level of awareness, a certain level of emotional regulation, a certain level of groundedness and heartfulness, and that may not be what we've encountered on the other side. They may not receive it. We cannot control how someone receives it. We can just come in with our clear intention and have done our personal work to get to that point where we can be a strong willow in a storm and, and, and not take it all so personally, even though it feels all very personally when they respond in a really harsh way.

That's such a good point, Bonnie. Yeah, not taking it personally.

Right.

Yeah.

I struggle with that.

They're reacting from hurt.

Yeah. And this is, it's a nuanced topic, right? Because also if you're, if you're in a newer thing, like, and you're dealing with attachment wounding, then if you feel any type of fear, it can have you either want to cling or push the person away. So this is another thing to just be aware of because Sometimes it's doing the work within your nervous system so that you can actually show up centered from that place so that you can see, oh, this is actually a healthy thing for me, or, oh, this actually really is not, you know. But sometimes we can't tell because our nervous system is so jacked up, especially if you lean in an avoidant pattern. So that's another thing of like your inner voice might say, get out, run, this is too— like, but that might not actually be what's healthy. Sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's so much nuance to this topic and this question, clearly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it might be that we stay for a while to get information, right?

Yes.

We're gathering information more about ourselves, really. And that can be useful too, that, okay, I'm learning more and more about myself as I remain in this relationship, for better or worse, whatever is going on in the relationship, as long as it's not abusive. Uh, in which case I would offer some, yeah, some supports around that.

Yeah.

And so it's not easy in any of it.

No. And I'm hoping—

get clear.

I'm hoping this is bringing clarity to the person that asked this question: how do you know when it's time to call it when you're on-again, off-again? Hopefully this conversation has given you a little bit more clarity or some new ways to think about the situation that you're in right now. And, um, yeah, and for all of you listening, thank you so much for, uh, for joining us for this podcast. And I just want to encourage you guys to, um, please send in your questions. Courtney, do you want to let people know where they can actually ask their questions for the podcast?

Yeah, so they can visit waythru.com/ask, and it'll take you to a nice nifty form. You just have to go ahead and put your question in there. It'll come straight to our inbox, and we will answer it in a future episode or in our weekly live Q&A that's free over in our community.

Perfect. So please, if you have questions that are coming up from this conversation or, you know, things that are happening in your own life, in your own relationships, this is a place to bring your questions anonymously, ask them there, and we will answer them on the podcast and have a deep discussion, a juicy discussion like we did today, to help find your way through. The situation. So thank you all for joining us. Please subscribe to the podcast, as they say in all these podcasts, but I know this one will be lots of value for you if you do. And, uh, also feel free to come visit us at waythrough.com where we can, uh, get to know each other even more. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you on the next episode of Way Through.