House of Wolves Episode Eight - Free Your Mind

You should be a monster, an absolute monster, and then you should learn how to control it. There's an intensity to what we're trying to accomplish, and, um, you know, if you want to be truly great, you've got to bring it every day. Do you enjoy pain? Pain don't hurt. You blitz all night. Standing out is a long-term strategy, takes guts, and produces results. If you care enough about your work to be willing to be criticized for it, then you have done A good day's work. It's a long enough pause at the beginning.

Yes, go ahead.

So I think today we're going to be talking about books that Jennifer and I have found value in that we can recommend. I know I'm always looking for a good read, non-fiction and fiction, so maybe we talk a little bit about both.

Yes, one of my favorite things that we do is listening to a variety of books that we enjoy together. A lot of times over the holidays, that's a lot of time on the road, and we got to listen to a little bit more of an audiobook. And Jonathan just finished it, and now I'm going to start it, but it's from an author we both really enjoy. And so being able to have those kinds of conversations about fiction or nonfiction, but we tend to align on our nonfiction, is What did you take from it? What really stood out to you? What blew your mind, basically? And what punched you in the gut? So I don't know, those are the moments where I like to lean over and press pause and be like, oh my goodness, did you hear that? Or, hey, that makes me think of XYZ. So yeah, I think there's been a number of books that we have both really enjoyed.

Yeah, I think because the day-to-day of our life is so crazy, we don't get to listen to audiobooks together at home. But when we travel, we get to listen to audiobooks together, whether the kids are sleeping or if the kids are like with a grandparent and we're traveling to go to like a speaking event or going to a conference. Then we put on that nonfiction audiobook. And you're right, we don't really listen to fiction audio together because I think our tastes are very different.

Yeah, there's been a few sci-fi pieces I think we both have listened to, but generally fiction. We're on different sides of a spectrum there.

So let's talk about fiction first, and then we'll go to nonfiction.

Sure thing. What do you got for me?

Uh, what fiction books are you reading? Have you read recently? What would you recommend?

Oh, I would like you to go ahead and punch that back over your way because, uh, I kind of been in a little space where I haven't really done— read too much fiction this year.

I thought you were reading all those, uh, like mystery thriller books. I did a bunch of mysteries and a bunch of thrillers.

I do love some thrillers, so So my favorite has been— I've always enjoyed, I mean, who doesn't, Dan Brown. But I, you know, you read his books, read all his Robert Langdon series, you can read the sci-fi stuff. So it was good, but I knew that there's a lot more out there. But I don't like the same formula too much over and over. So I went back to some of the older thrillers and mystery, detective mysteries, and I read a little bit of Dorothy Toothsayers, say your tooth, Toothsayer, and then Agatha Christie, I think, in the beginning of the year. And then I jumped over to little Lee Child Preston, read a couple of those, and then I think I took a break and haven't really— I started reading Miracle on 34th Street from the film, was adapted into a book, but it didn't translate richly enough for me.

You also read Little Women recently, right?

Oh yeah, the classics. I love classics. I do love classics. I remember a time before children, I started going through the Harvard list of classics and just spending time reading those in a year. Um, so that was, that was fun. But yes, the Little Women. Actually, we reread Hobbit this year with the kids, and then Little Women. We started reading Anne of Green Gables and Little Britches. By Ralph Moody. So we need to finish that up in the next couple of weeks.

How about Grendel?

Beowulf.

Did you read Beowulf?

Yeah, sorry, I was thinking just so we read— yeah, we read a lot of those types of, uh, I read a lot more of my fiction with the children. So we've read a bunch of Norse mythology, Native American folk tales and folklore. I love just the stories of that and how mythology and legends really inform cultural dynamics and the way that each culture operates in the day-to-day based on their belief systems, or vice versa, how their belief systems construct their data— excuse me, reverse that— their day-to-day living constructs their belief systems and how they kind of make sense of the world around them.

Every culture from the beginning of time has had those stories too, like what you're talking about, like Norse mythology, Native Americans, Greek mythology.

Everybody, it seems, has those stories of heroes and monsters and gods and man, you know, origin, creation, destruction, uh, but yeah, vitality and, and how, you know, Earth is made, or excuse me, land and food and supplies and daily needs, uh, fire. All of that comes from— there's— yeah, every culture has them in variation. And it's, yeah, it's, it's been fun because we spent some time looking at a little bit of Greek mythology, but more Norse mythology, and, um, and ancient Egyptian too because we were reading Exodus. And so being able to do those and talk about the differences and read some of the tales and the stories and learn about the pantheon of gods, that was— it's a lot of fun. And then to read some of the classics again, the stories that are told through generations orally, um, like Beowulf. Yeah, and it— yes, so I love, I love a lot of stories. I don't know if there's a common theme there or I just have an eclectic interest, but yeah. How about yourself?

Oh man, let's see. For fiction, there's two ongoing series that I really enjoy. So one of them is sci-fi and one of them is urban fantasy. So on the sci-fi side, it's Pierce Brown.

You love— you said Pierce Brown right now.

Yeah, I think, uh, I think people can relate when you find a new series that you really enjoy and you find like, oh man, there's like 5 or 6 of these books out already. It's like I enjoy them so much I almost don't want to finish them, so I'm like really taking my time and not trying to like speed through it, but really taking my time listening to him. So I'm through the first book and I'm into the second book right now. I think I might try to be friends with him because I looked him up and he lives like locally here, so I might try to hit him up, not in a stalkerish way, but just be like, hey, I see you write books. I also am known to write some books. Would you like to be friends? Something like that. But if I approach him like that, I'd probably say no.

I don't know.

Oh, weird. Just be weird on purpose.

Don't be weird on purpose, because I'm sure if he's an introvert, that would just really scare him. I guess it's a good litmus test, like a filter. If you get weird and if he responds, either A, he's a bigger weirdo and this is gonna be weird, totally weird, or B, he gets it enough that you guys will really hit it off. But who knows?

Yeah, but his series is really cool, uh, sci-fi. And then on the urban fantasy side there's another series called Monster Hunters International, and that's by Larry Correa, who we got to— so Jen and Larry's wife were on a panel together recently, two panels together recently, and then I got to talk to him briefly. He seems like a super nice guy in real life, so that's cool.

Can I interject that it was interesting to get to meet him because he's known well in our author community, but the fact that I got to meet him through his wife, who is just a delight. And then to find out that we're all from the same general area originally kind of brought a little more of a kindred spirit in there. So, um, you never know. You never know to reach out and be like, hey, I see you are also from this area.

Yeah, I think common interest— like, at the beginning of any relationship, you don't know the person that you're talking to, but over time you can find some commonality. And that was like a big thing that you and Two of both of them are from the same area.

Yep, originally.

Yeah, so that was super cool. So both those series, uh, Red Rising and then Monster Hunters International, and they're both ongoing, so it's exciting to get a new release on the fiction side. And I try out other fiction work besides those two, but those are the two that are current and ongoing. New books are being released, and the ones that I enjoy the most.

Didn't you really get into, um, was it Dan Simmons' Hyperion? No, no, not that one. What was the one with like the military sort of deal going on? It was maybe fantasy in a sci-fi setting, something like that.

That's like, that's so many books. I know, I'm sorry. You're being so proud. What was the one with the man and the guy and the hero's journey?

No, the military specifically was like a legion, like an army, and there was this—

Oh, I, uh, I know which one you're talking about, and I felt like, uh, I didn't finish that series.

Oh, but you were enjoying it.

Yeah, I don't want to throw the author underneath the bus because I didn't finish. It's kind of lost interest. I think I got through the first one. I think it was really good. And I think the second one I listened to, maybe that's where I got lost.

Yeah, but I think it was a really big world, and I recall you listening to that first one.

Yes.

And you really were liking it. So it is—

I enjoyed the first one, and then I think it went downhill from there.

No, no, that's a change.

Well, I'm not going to say the person's name.

I'm not. Yeah, I wanted— what I want to say is that it didn't work for you, but it is a very popular series and I've seen it high on the ranking, so many other people enjoy it.

Good, I'm glad. I hope he does really well. The series, it just wasn't— it's not you, it's me. Not you.

You don't have to hope, it does do well. Yes, it does do well for a lot of people as well.

We won't mention the names. I feel like we're in the clear saying this.

I would like to also point out that this is at least the third episode in a row where you say, I don't want to name names. Yeah, we're not going to name names. Yeah, yeah, just stop talking bad things on people that you don't have to name the names, or negative stuff, and then we can avoid that.

I ain't no snitch, okay? Not a rat.

And just watch that on.

But no, I think, I think that's good that, uh, I think that's how we're supposed to be, right? Like, if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.

And don't say anything at all.

Well, yeah, but it's not like, uh, we're trying to bring anybody down. No, because that's not the game we play. But I think just in life, like, you're gonna like certain things and not like certain things.

Yes.

So even though you might not like certain things, you don't need to be negative about that person to put them down. But I don't think that's what we're doing here. We're not being negative and put them down.

I'm not using we.

There's no we in this. You're the one that brought up the series. Well, I think I'm just saying it wasn't for me. I did. I liked book 1, and then book 2 started getting like a little bit watered down, and like 3 and stuff like that, and it just wasn't as good as it when it first started.

It didn't work for you.

Oh, so here's a good example. Riddle me this. I've noticed that a lot of times And I think I know why it is too. A lot of times authors will come out with like a banging book 1, like, oh my goodness, yes. And then book 2 is just not as good, and then 3, and then it starts kind of getting lost. And I think— you tell me what you think and I'll tell you what I think— I think that it's because when a book 1 comes out, that author has had a lot of time. It's almost like the clock hasn't started for the next book. So they have a lot of time, they can take their time, they can invest into the book, have it exactly so. But once book 1 comes out, then the clock starts ticking on when book 2 is going to come out, and everybody's going to be super hungry and want to know when book 2 comes. So then I feel like the author may not have as much time as they want writing book 2, might feel the pressure of trying to get book 2 out in a certain time, anxiety.

It's a lot of feelings, a lot of feelings.

So I think that might be one of the reasons why a lot of times we see like a killer book 1 and then 2 and 3 and 4 start kind of losing this.

It could be. It could be also that they have found success with this story and depending on who's in control of the development of that book or that series, but they may say, hey, this formula has worked. You need to hit these beats at this time. In order for it to maintain its winning levels or whatever it is. And it could be that the authors had so much time to develop book 1, they had a lot of ideas to pour into that one, as opposed to less time— like you're saying, they're on a deadline, so less time to really flesh it out. And there's also the novelty. Who knows? I don't read too many, too many series.

I've noticed too, even in length So like, uh, book 1 will be way, way longer, like sometimes almost like double the length of book 2. And I wonder if that's like a similar thing that's happening. For book 1, they have nothing but time, but then as soon as book 1 comes, the clock starts ticking for book 2. So book 2 is much shorter.

Or could be maybe they never knew that there would be a possibility for book 2, so they poured their heart and soul into book 1.

Yes.

And then book 2, they realize, oh, I got another shot, I gotta come up with something else. Or if it's marketing and pure sales, it's a different strategy. So, uh, but that does not have to do anything with this.

Should we talk about our— should we talk about our merch items?

What?

So for people who are not watching but listening here at the table, we have an Infinity System mug that was gifted to us. I won't turn this into the QVC channel. We're not selling these. This was a present from a friend. And then also back here, uh, for people who aren't watching but only listening, there's a Wolfpack cutting board.

I was not going to mention either. They were going to be like Easter eggs that we have. Well, thank you, Vanna. Thank you so much, Vanna. Like to move on with the hand.

No.

So nonfiction, uh, you listen to books mostly, almost exclusively.

Yes.

When's the last time you read either e-reader or physical book?

I mean, when would the dinosaurs go extinct?

I don't know, depends on who you ask, basically. So let's get a more realistic timeline.

How old am I?

I don't know, Jonathan.

These are important questions.

No, I know your date of birth. I don't know how old you actually are.

It's okay, I don't either. Okay, it's one of the mysteries.

It's irrelevant.

Great.

How old do you feel?

12, um, correct. Yeah, I don't really—

do you still know how to read is the question anymore.

Yes, I don't really read books anymore because I'm so busy all the time writing and reading my own stuff. So, and because life is so bananas. So between like doing chores around the house, like mowing the lawn, sometimes working out, driving at times by myself, that's when I can put in the audiobook.

Okay, so you listen to audiobooks.

And then also I don't read— I like, I feel like I read at a normal speed. But with an audiobook, I can pump that up, the speed that it's being read to me, by like a time and a half, sometimes even 2 times, depending on who the narrator is, if they naturally speak quickly or if they naturally speak slow, and we can speed it up. So yeah, and you're on the other side. You're mostly actually reading books, right?

I am everything. Don't you put me on one side. No, I do e-readers, physical books, and audiobooks.

Yes.

All three.

Yeah, I'm basically just doing audiobooks.

Yeah, when I'm reading with the kids, it's exclusively, uh, physical books. And then for myself, I have an audiobook that's going, I'll have an ebook, and I have a physical book with my little book light clamp on there.

Oh, that's a good point though. I've been reading books with the kids too, that actually like, you know, small books, but Jackson just wants to listen to mostly Spider-Man And then Jo is basically either like mermaid kittens or unicorns. So it's funny, I'll be reading like mermaid kittens with her, and then I go work out and I'm listening to, you know, death and destruction on a sci-fi planet through the audiobook.

They're both SFF, sci-fi or fantasy. Yeah, yeah, you stay in your genre.

We're all like the same thing.

Yep, we're a family of sci-fi, fantasy, thriller.

Yeah, you're the only outlier because you're going more thrillers and mysteries.

Yes, that is correct. I am the outlier. Thank you so much.

So that covers fiction. So now we should talk about nonfiction. What type of nonfiction do you consume?

All kinds. What do you like right now? Let's talk about the book you just finished reading that I cannot wait to jump into.

Yeah, we listened to some of it together on a drive that we had, but we're big fans of David Goggins.

If you don't know the name, look him up. He is something else.

Yeah, and, uh, disclaimer too, when he's telling his stories and the way he chooses to speak, there's profanity. I don't choose to use profanity in my like day-to-day interactions.

In your any interactions?

Yeah, in my any interactions, but he does. So just like a heads up, like it doesn't bother me, but if that's something that bothers you, it might not be for you. But, uh, he definitely has the warrior spirit, that drive to achieve and to overcome no matter the odds. And it's funny because he usually puts himself up against obstacles that are physical, whether it's marathons or ultra marathons or cycling events and different things like that, where I feel like I'm doing the same thing, but it's more in the writing realm. Like, I don't know too many people who are trying to run their publishing house while starting to go into film, while writing comic books and working on co-authored books. Like, last month I had all those things happen in the same month. I went from finishing the second draft in the script to writing a second issue in a comic book to going over a draft from a co-author to writing my next novel, Galactic Guardians 5. All in the same month.

I would like to point out that that was this month. Yes, that was last month. That's how unconstrained— unconstrained by time you are.

Yeah, so it's, uh, but again, that's the same thing about, you know, not being satisfied, pushing to find your best and to achieve, because each one of those things has been difficult. And I know for me, is it difficult to start a project and then when that's project is finished than to rip my mind out of thinking about that world or writing in that, uh, form and then insert myself— sometimes the same day— insert myself doing writing a different way and then immersing myself in a different world trying to remember everything that's happening with all these characters. So that's been tough, but again, it's kind of like a mental obstacle that I have to get around.

I think that's what Goggins does is he enters into these really hard physical places. A little context though, he's an ultra marathoner, ultra marathoner. He former Navy SEAL, he did some Army Ranger testing. He also did something where he was jumping out of airplanes. Parrot, you're smiling because I'm getting it wrong. What is it again?

Because I just listened to the book, so I feel bad because you're—

no, go ahead.

Uh, yeah, so he's done a lot of physical activities. So I think when he's doing these physical things, he's being mentally tough. He has to be mentally tough.

Yes.

To push himself and drive himself. So I feel like we're doing the same thing, but we're just having to be mentally tough and push ourselves and drive ourselves into these new realms that might be uncomfortable, like working on film budgets.

It's not uncomfortable, it's just tedious.

It's comfortable.

Yes.

Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know that.

I mean, I have a different— I think we have a different description of uncomfortable, but yeah.

What's your definition of uncomfortable?

Like, I really don't want to do it because it's hard.

Oh, so you really do want to do this because it's easy?

Um, it's neutral. I don't know, I'm very neutral thinking, which is another really good book. Mindset by Carol Dweck is a great book. Um, no, I don't know. I don't feel anything towards the spreadsheet other than the satisfaction of seeing it all populated and color coordinated.

Okay, so non-fiction books. So David Goggins is a great one.

He has two, right? We just finished the second one, Can't Hurt Me, and I don't know. Okay, we'll put it in the show notes.

Can't be sure. That's not the title of the book. I just don't know what it is. Carol Dweck was another one.

She's another author. Yes, she has The mindset one I just said.

And then, uh, what was— what's the Four Habits books?

Four Agreements.

Yes, The Four Agreements is a great book.

Miguel something.

I'll look it up, I'll look it up so we get everything correct.

Yeah, so The Four Agreements is another great one. It talks— these are all mindset books. That's what the difference is. These are all mindset books. I think that is been key for us in terms of nonfiction that we've both enjoyed and that help shape our minds. It's all about sharpening your axe, getting your mindset ready to pursue all the things you're interested in— your family, your marriage or relationships, your workplace, whether that's working for another company or working and running your own company. Did you find it?

Yes. So Carol Dweck's book is just called Mindset.

Okay, perfect.

And then The Four Agreements is written by Mr. Don Miguel Ruiz.

There it is, Don Miguel Ruiz.

Definitely recommend those. And then there's your favorite, Chris Voss.

Never Split the Difference.

Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. And like you said, I think a lot of them teach you a mindset. And then I think we've gone over neutral thinking. Have we talked about neutral thinking?

We We have not done enough discussion of neutral thinking.

So maybe do you want to explain to people what neutral thinking is?

Absolutely. Yes, it's about going into any situation or reacting and thinking about things as neutrally as possible. So one story or allegory is that a farmer one day finds a horse and he brings that horse home and his neighbor says, wow, wonderful, you found this beautiful wild horse and you've brought it in, like you must be so blessed. And the farmer retorts, Maybe. The next day, his oldest son is trying to tame the horse and he gets hurt. He falls down and breaks his leg. And so his neighbor says, oh no, what a tragedy, your son has broken his leg, you must be cursed. And so the farmer says, maybe. The next week or next year, you know, the son is still hurt, he's limp, and a big war breaks out and a bunch of the young men are conscripted to go and fight in this war. But the farmer's son cannot because of his injury. And so the neighbor says, oh, what a blessing your son is spared from having to go to this vicious war. You must be so blessed. And the farmer says, maybe. And so the idea is we don't know what the outcome is going to be. We have to wait to see things until they come to fruition. So instead of spending that emotional or mental energy in defining something as good or bad, as paradise or as hell, or as the end-all be-all, whether it be whatever end of the spectrum, it's that we stay within a neutral zone. And so we expend less of our focus and energy on seeing what may happen when we don't know what it's going to be or may be completely inconsequential. So you had told me some things too, some applications in terms of the sports world.

Yeah, I'm looking at a couple of different books right now, getting the titles. Okay, so another one that we both really liked was Be Like Walt. How to Be Like Walt.

I would love to share more on that topic in a whole nother episode. That was such a good, like, concept.

I know a lot of people feel different ways about Disney, especially like in our world, but like, we're talking about how it began back in the day, old school, Mr. Walt Disney, who came from nothing and was able to build his company and what he wanted to be. So we're talking about, you know, how it began. And, uh, yeah, there's lots of different things that we've learned in that book. Just how simple he was and how when he first started, how much he wanted to build and kept on having to risk everything and would fail and then risk everything again. He would just eat like a can of beans a lot, right? I remember that story. He didn't have any money, just reinvesting back into his company. How to plus the experience. I think that'll be a different podcast that we could talk about. That was a really good book too. And then there was, uh, did you read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?

Did I read Outliers? Yes.

So Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, he goes and studies some of the greats. I remember he does Steve Jobs, the Beatles, uh, there was hockey, there's a section on hockey players, uh, I think airplane pilots from maybe the Philippines, something like that.

South Korea.

South Korea. So basically what he's doing is he's going and finding people who are outliers, like amazing great at what they did and then tearing back and going back in time to their past and figuring out exactly how they did it and what it took for them to be one of the greats or to look at things that didn't go well.

I think the pilot situation was like, why does this particular airline have such a high propensity for crashing? And so to look back, understanding the culture, the dynamics, the timing and everything that was involved in that. Development and how did we get to where we are. How are these particular players in hockey so elite? Are there any commonalities? Because by deconstructing however they got to be where they are, we can start to see patterns. And in those patterns, we can then determine what are some of the things that we can apply to our own lives and to our own habits or avoid. So what was that one of the things that stood out to you most from Outliers?

He was talking about hockey players. He was— they were doing a study on some of the great hockey players, and one of the cool things that I learned is— I'm going to get the months wrong, but basically the idea is when you enroll in hockey when you're younger, when you first start, you start working your way up the ladder. They have a cutoff. So let's just say like the cutoff is January. So you can enroll and you're going to be in this division of hockey, this age group, up until January. And then when the next month rolls around, it starts the new division. So some of the best hockey players were born in like December or January, right before the cutoff. And you can see almost having a full year of growth and development over some of the younger players, right? For that year cutoff would help them not only coordination but in size. So they did a study and the vast majority of like famous or really good hockey players were born in those months leading right up to the cutoff because that put them so far ahead of their counterparts. So I thought that was really cool. So sometimes, yes, it is dedication and grind and practice. It's all those things. But sometimes when you start tearing back, kind of like looking at the greats and looking for commonalities, you can start finding things like that. Mm-hmm. Jocko Willink, Extreme Ownership.

Yes.

I thought that was one that we really enjoyed.

Why did you enjoy it?

I enjoyed it because he talks about how when you own your own company, everything is your responsibility. Everything is your fault. Everything is on you. And at first glance, that might seem like, oh my gosh, like, how can you stand under that burden of weight?. But on the other hand, you're like, oh, I have control over everything. Then nothing is out of my hands. So an example, this didn't really happen, people, so I'm not pointing any fingers at anybody, but I'm just using this as an example. If there was somebody in our company who missed a deadline, maybe a book price was supposed to be changed. I don't know, but a deadline was missed and that person said they're sorry,, but we got in trouble with maybe an advertising company or a promotion company because we didn't change the price. One road of thought would be like, I could point a finger at that person and, you know, be angry with that person, tell them like, hey, you were supposed to change the price. You didn't change the price on this book. Now all this is happening, blah, blah, blah. It's all your fault. It's not my fault. That's one road. Or I could say, hey, we all need to work to be better. I should have double-checked this as well before the day hit. I should have also made sure that this price was changed. Let's both work to be better. I'm gonna hold myself accountable first to make sure that I'm always checking. I need to remind you, just do it myself if I see that it's not done, and take full responsibility. So by taking responsibility, you're kind of recapturing— like, nothing's out of control. You're recapturing control by taking responsibility because you're thinking, I could have fixed that, I can't fix that. Not, oh, it's out of my hands, woe is me, there's nothing I could have done about this, it's all this person's fault.

I think it changes your mindset, how you approach these scenarios. Mindset. Um, how exactly— if you feel like, I don't want your coffee, I want you to clean it.

You're—

yeah, you feel more in control. You don't have that burden of being at the whim of other people. So that's one thing. Another is that you start to look for patterns for correction and improvement. So instead of just saying it was a mistake and it was all so-and-so's fault, you get to say, what can we do differently to make this work out better next time? And so it's that 1% or 10% improvements of owning all of the working parts of, of a system or a workplace. And I think going into scenarios like that, it really, yeah, creates that ownership. And he calls it extreme ownership. Another one is when something does go bad, he says good. Oh yeah, good. That's another really good one, right? So something happens, and instead of dwelling neutrally on it or negatively, he says good, because this is now an opportunity to do better next time. And that means like everything we learned, everything we built up to it, we're going to shift focus and we're going to move forward in a positive way. It's not to be Pollyanna about the negative things and consequences that happened, but that's owning it saying we're going to make— what does he call extreme ownership? No, no, radical changes. Sure. Okay. You use— that's a term you use too. Like, what are we going to do? Radical action steps that we're going to take. Oh, violent action. Yeah, violent, violent. You love violence to make an impact of change and then to know that the business, the company, the relationship, whatever it is, it's going to be that much better.

Going forward? The War of Art by Steven Pressfield and also Turning Pro. Okay. By Steven Pressfield.

Oh, the Turning Pro is so short.

So they're both really good and they're both, they're both short listens.

So what about those?

I think kind of breaks down, he helps you understand as a creative what's keeping you, that resistance that you feel when it's time to sit down and write or time to create, kind of like what that is and how to overcome. And then Turning Pro is exactly what it sounds like. It's like taking the beginner and giving them implements or like what actions you need to take to be a pro at what you do.

Do you think that there's any point in your career that you should listen to those or it's too late to listen to either one of them?

No, I think you should listen to them as soon as possible. Okay. Then you can start implementing. Yes. And then you're asking the title of David Goggins' second book, the one that just came out.

It's called Never Finished. Oh yeah, right. Um, what I liked about both of the Steven Pressfield books was the way he kind of put things into analogies and exceptional examples of people he's encountered in his own journey. And they're good reminders because they're so brief, but they're very visual. So as we go through our own day-to-day, I feel like I can have that story sort of echoing or playing in the background to prompt me to do the things necessary to level up the experience, the life, or what I'm doing. So in The War of Art, he talks about the resistance. So there's the muse and there's the resistance, and how the muse is the thing that inspires us and the resistance is that little thing in our brain that just pushes back. And sometimes I feel that I'm really up against that wall and that I just need to go through it. Not like a writer's block or anything like that, but I mean, where I just like, oh, I just want to go in. Like, I need something to distract my brain. I need something to take the edge off my brain. I've been into this programming, creating websites and systems and triggers.

Like when you said you went into a trance.

Yeah, I went into a trance this morning working on some DNS stuff, pointing the CNAME and adding all the A triggers or, uh, directions to— yes, I understand half of what you said. Sorry, but it was like— so it felt like I didn't know what I'm doing, and I was talking to the help guy and he was like, what if you do this? Like, dude, I am like 10 steps past that. Thank you for your help. Have a wonderful day. Happy New Year. I'm just gonna keep Google searching, reading some Reddit posts, reading some help things, and go in there. And I figured if I break it all on accident, I'll delete it and then start fresh.

But you're like the guy behind the computer.

That was the gal behind the computer and screen. Yeah. So anyway, but sometimes, like, just something was like, let's just check and see what's on Instagram. I wonder if anyone has responded to this question I posted in a group on Facebook. Oh, I wonder if there's any new interesting stories or reels, or maybe I could get inspiration on Pinterest. Silly things like that. And I, I feel it sort of knocking and nudging, and I I say no resistance, and I feel stronger after having said no, and I can focus more. But that, that was a big one. And then turning pro on just on all levels, being a professional, not taking the easy or slackish route.

So, and then there's the samurai Miyamoto Musashi.

Oh my goodness, you nailed it this time!

The Complete Book of Five Rings.

Let's talk about—

that's really good about focus. About how he was not only a great samurai who never lost a battle, but it was also super simple. And then also, I forget what else it is, if it was painting or if it was basket weaving, it was something like that. The Japanese art of the, the painting, maybe gardening too, where he was such a master of his focus and discipline that we were just talking about this the other day. I feel like focus is a weapon that you can wield. So you can focus on writing books and do that really well, be 100% in there, living in the moment, doing that to the best of your ability. But if you can teach yourself how to harness your focus, then you can use that same focus in different aspects, whether it's making movies or whether it's working out at the gym. So I think instead of trying to master one thing you should master yourself, because if you can master yourself, then you can turn that focus to whatever you want to do.

And that's the one where he said emotions make excellent— was that one, or Marcus Aurelius? Excellent servants but terrible masters. Yes. And that our emotions are a tool. And so when mastering ourselves, again, conserving our energy and our focus to be moving us forward? I wouldn't use the word productive, but some people construe that as busyness. So in moving something forward, meaningful is that enhancing your life, your relationship, driving you towards your goals or the things you want to accomplish. It could be, is it helping me get the stuff done I need today? Is it helping me build the relationships and interpersonal relationships? In my workplace? Is it helping me to whatever it is? Or are these emotions taking up so much energy of me just sitting here instead of driving me where I need to go? And I think that is something I see well, well, much too often in people is the sitting in the emotions. Again, emotions aren't bad, but it's making them our servants and not allowing them to be the masters of us.

Yeah, we were talking about that too the other day. When you get bad news or an opportunity, uh, that you wanted to open, you know, closes, the door shuts. I had a boss that would tell me like, okay, well, when the opportunity closes, like, it's okay to be mad, it's okay to feel angry. Like, take a day, take 24 hours to be disappointed and mad and angry, but then eventually, you know, you got to get back on the horse. So I thought about that, but nowadays when opportunities close for us, or when the door shuts, I feel like I need maybe like a second to think like, oh, it's too bad, on with the next.

So we say good, bring it together, acknowledge those emotions, say good. And either is this an opportunity that we don't need, or is this the opportunity to pivot, to do better and do it differently on the next round? And make us that much better.

And I think too, we've been taking nos for so long and the intentionally like setting ourselves up to take nos so we can grow, so we can get that yes for so long, whether it was the publishing or whether it's comic books or whether it's audiobooks or whether it's film, like we continually put ourselves in positions to get those nos and to finally get those yeses. I think we realize now we've seen it happen so many times already. Where when we get the no, it's not that big of a deal because we've been through this so many times before. We know that every no is going to get us closer to that yes. And we've seen it so many times before happen in the past where we'll get some nos and then we get a yes. And then we have kind of like the full timeline to go look back on and be like, oh, that's why we got nos from this person, this person, this person, because the person that we got a yes from was such a better fit, and that was the right person for us.

It's having faith in the process, kind of believing in the process that things are going to click where they need to.

We've seen it happen over and over and over again.

So if we didn't put ourselves out there as much, you know, being unoffendable, sort of from the original Goggins can't hurt me, you're not going to hurt my feelings by saying no, whatever it is. And then not expending emotional energy sitting in the disappointment and moving on to the next thing. That has given us a sort of compounded timeline, right? A callus against it, but given us a lot of data, if you would, a lot of data input to be able to know and create expectations of what's to come. So if someone doesn't put themselves out there as much, if they're not trying as much, they can't get as much experience to see how things are going to work out eventually. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay, so I think each of these different books— I think there's maybe about 10 in there, we'll call it our top 10— those 10 books, lessons that we've taken each separately and differently from that, compounded and working together. So we've been married for almost 12 years, so I'd say we've been doing this for about 11, 11 to 10 a decade's worth of 10 great nonfiction books that really helped to sculpt and influence and inform our mindset to be able to do what we're doing right now.

I think we should end it on that. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Oh, thank you. Oh, I can't wait to see— I'm very much so looking forward to what the next 10 years are going to bring us and how we can continue to grow. So if you have any— anybody listening or watching has any recommendations on some outstanding or favorite books, nonfiction and fiction, please do share them. We, we love reading. There are books piled everywhere in this house.

All right, thanks guys, and we'll see you next episode.