House of Wolves Episode Seven - Publishing Your Book.

You should be a monster, an absolute monster, and then you should learn how to control it. There's an intensity to what we're trying to accomplish, and, um, you know, if you want to be truly great, you've got to bring it every day. Do you enjoy pain? Pain don't hurt. You blitz all night. Standing out is a long-term strategy, takes guts, and produces results. If you care enough about your work to be willing to be criticized for it, then you have done I think for this session we're going to talk about publishing.

Let's just get down to the nitty-gritty right away. You do what we do, how we got here. Because if you ask 100 people, 95 of them are going to say they have a story for a book. And if you ask those 95 people, we'd say it's 95 or 90— only 95, excuse me, 95% will never have written a word about it.

Yeah. So the bottom line is the vast, vast, vast majority of people want to write a book or have a story to tell. Yes. Have a story to tell that they would like to see in a book. Maybe they're not writing themselves. They just want the story told.

Yes.

So how does one begin to either write or get their work published? That's a question that we started answering a little over 10 years ago, maybe like 10 and a half years ago now. So Uh, in a nutshell, if you listen to previous podcasts, we kind of touched on how we got started, so I'll do it again super brief if you've already heard this. Uh, started out with nothing, like no idea what to do with publishing, no idea how to rank.

That we started at the bottom, now we here.

Yes. Is that Drake?

Maybe.

Is it really? I honestly have no idea. I'm not trying to like set you up to alley-oop.

Oh yes, it is Drake.

Yeah, I have no idea. I think my music these days—

you and your hip-hop.

Yeah, you and your hip-hop. So we started, I started writing, had no idea, you know, where to begin. Queried, because at the time I thought, you know, I needed an agent to be able to publish my book.

What is a query?

A query is a letter that you put up, super brief, like word count and genre of your book, some books that your book's similar to, super brief synopsis, and then the last paragraph would be about you. Kind of like anything that sets you apart to be able to write this book, like why an agent would want to pick you up.

Okay.

So I queried 100, and I did it in like batches of 20, which you're not supposed to do. They say that you're not supposed to query more than one agent at a time because if one agent says yes, then you have, you know, a handful of other agents that might also say yes, but the agent who first said yes is taking time to read your manuscript And if they ultimately say yes, then you're wasting other agents' time, which is great for the agent not to waste their time. But in the meantime, I didn't want to query one person at a time and then wait weeks upon weeks to get a yes or no, or no response, or no response, and then query a second agent and then wait weeks and weeks to maybe get a yes, maybe get a no. So what do the kids say these days? Your boy. So your boy sent out queries in batches of 20. I had like a spreadsheet. I actually really like spreadsheets, by the way. What? I use them all the time.

To me, no, you've used them. Yes, I knew that. I know that you've used them. I didn't realize you loved spreadsheets.

No, I do. Uh, we work with Scholastic, we partner with Scholastic, so every year with Scholastic I have multiple spreadsheets going of readers and stuff like that. So anyways, I've come over the years where I like spreadsheets because everything's so like orderly and organized, which I introduce Pivot tables, it's gonna blow your mind. I don't know what that is.

That's what I'm saying, would be an introduction. Witchcraft, sorcery, sorceress. Okay, go.

So, uh, query letters, 20 at a time. So I— the first 20, the second 20, third 20, everybody was— I was either getting ignored or rejected. I don't even think I got a request for it, like the full manuscript, out of those queries.

I've got a couple, like a manuscript or additional chapters. Yes.

Oh, I don't know, maybe additional chapters. I don't know if I sent the whole manuscript. Anywho, it was the batch of 20 from 80, so I guess it'd be like 81 to 100. So I sent that out. So I had queried 100 agents, and in that last batch, my ultimate game plan was I was going to query 100, and if I got 100 nos or ignores, then I would just write a new book, query another 100 until something gave, because I knew I wasn't going to get it to give up. So in the batch that went out that had us set up to do 100 queries, I finally got a yes. So I got a yes with a small publishing house, published with them. And then I realized, like, hey, we could do this ourselves. We had the ability to reach out to a cover artist and editor and be able to format. And then with Jen's background, we're able to do some advertising and marketing for our books to get out there. So now fast forward 10 and a half years, We have a successful publishing company, and now we also have a successful production company doing TV shows and movies, and then also a podcast that I think is going pretty well.

What do you mean successful? What do you mean successful?

It's impacting people's lives in a positive way.

Absolutely. Yeah.

All right. And now we have a podcast. Yes.

So let's talk about the traditional route. Let's talk about how somebody would have had to write their book, maybe just do a pitch or a summary of what their book is, inquire, send query letters to agents, and then agents would be the one to be able to have contact with an actual publisher. And then the publisher, based on that agent relationship and the content, the story, or the author, would say yes, no, and then choose on publishing and what kind of support they put behind it. So there are realms of the big 4 and a half—

4, 4, um, publishing houses in New York, which are Penguin Random House, HarperCollins, Hachette, and Macmillan. It's being sold.

Okay, yeah, sorry. Um, and then there are a number of mid-level publishers, and then there are anything else smaller than that are considered boutique or indie publishers. And so that would be how you would get into one of those. And then let's talk about what people might think in terms of, hey, I got a publishing deal, what does that look like? What did we think it looks like, and what did we learn that it actually looks like a little bit more? Realistic?

I think what it looks like now is unless you're one of the very, like, top percent of authors who has, you know, a huge platform and has been writing for years and years and years, that if you're starting off or like a mid-level, you have to do most of the marketing or advertising work yourself. So that means running ads, driving traffic to your website, to being your own publicist, basically. Again, unless you're that, you know, kind of like that Stephen King or Dean Koontz. But if you're just starting off, getting a traditional deal I think is great, but just realize the work is still going to be similar to if you had published it yourself.

Okay, so if you publish it yourself, you have— obviously you have to write it, you have to get it edited, you'll have people look at the professional editing for content errors, typos, grammar, all that sentence structure, all that stuff, but also content-wise, story continuity, what, I don't know, all that stuff, develop it a couple of rounds. And then there's going to need to be somebody to format the book so that it's formatted in a way that could be printed read on an e-reader, all the different formats, because there are more than one e-reader. Most people are familiar with Kindle, but it also can go to phone. There's Kobo, there was Nook, there's a couple of others. And then, um, there's also a cover. So you need a cover designed, so you figure out the art and the layout design that's appropriate for their genre. And then there's also in the COVID the titling, which is a different kind of skill set for an artist. And then there's actually the distribution of that. So whether that's an ebook or paperback, there are many different ways to have that executed. So that could be executed through the Amazon route, Amazon exclusively, or Amazon and a wider distribution to any of the other channels, which it could include independent bookstores, Barnes Noble, Walmart, Costco. What am I missing? There's just so many. Libraries. And each of those is a separate sort of channel. The plus side of traditional publishers is they have established conversations and relationships with all those channels. The other side is, of course, they're doing the work. They're going to pay for the upfront, or they may pay for some of the upfront costs of development. But they also, so they're going to need to take a bigger percentage of the royalty, whereas independent, we are responsible for executing all of that in a way that is competitive with mainstream market. But, um, the royalties, you get to keep more of that.

And I think too, it depends what you want. So a lot of people put a lot of authors that I know, new authors, have put a lot of pressure on themselves thinking like, okay, am I going to traditionally publish or do I want to self-publish? And it's like this big question. And don't get me wrong, it is a big question, especially if you only plan to ever publish one book, then I think it is a bigger question. But I think we all have more than one story in us. So there's nothing to say that you couldn't try to traditionally publish first with one book and then self-publish with another book. Or the opposite way. I've done both now, and I'm about to do it again, like come full circle to go traditional published again. So don't put too much pressure on yourself thinking like, oh, okay, this decision is going to make or break me. I believe you have more than one story you need to tell. So, and it also depends too how much control you want. So as we're going through to the traditional process again, I'm reminded how it's such a different beast where I have less and less control and I'm kind of just waiting for different steps to be taken for the traditional road to progress. Where with self-publishing, I have way more control and way more power. It's like, okay, this is when we're going to launch, write the book. This is when we're going to advertise. This is when ads are going to go. There's way more control. So maybe it also depends on what type of person you are, if you prefer or enjoy to have more control. Then perhaps self-publishing is for you. Where if you're okay with just, you know, waiting for weeks or months at a time for different steps to be taken in the traditional world, then that could be for you as well.

One of the interesting stats that I heard most recently was that there are 75 different pairs of hands that are involved in the production and distribution of a traditional novel. So that means 75 different departments or persons have a role to developing that and distributing that book. So that's going to be all the things I've talked about, but also in terms of distribution, warehouse, the shipping, and getting it on the shelf. Uh, that's going to be— so when we talk about the work that goes into independent publishing, that's something to think about, is you're essentially taking on the role of 75 different people. Now you're going to scale and there's going to be some overlap, so it's not as though you're doing everything exactly the same. But that's something to keep in mind when we're talking about self-publishing and the amount of work that goes into it and the amount of professionalism you need to execute each step along the way in order to have a product that can sit on a shelf or sit on the charts and look equal to any of the other books.

When you think about 75, 75 people in the process of creating a book does sound like a lot, but then when you think about it, kind of like departments, be like, okay, well, it's probably not just one artist, it's probably like a team of artists doing the COVID and the typography on the COVID and then it's probably a team of editors going over for content and line editing and a team of authors or, sorry, a team of marketing individuals, marketing group or advertising group. So when you start thinking about like that, then you're like, okay, yeah, you could see how it could be 75 people shipping the shipping department. It's probably another team of people to when the book actually ships and it's at the bookstore, there's another team of people there. Right. So when you think about that, 75 makes sense. Where in self-publishing, we've talked about before, I think we counted like 6 or 8. There's like 6 or 8 of us that would touch your stuff.

How about—

yeah, maybe 8 because we have, uh, beta readers as well. So maybe like 8 people who are going to touch the book before it gets published. And a lot of people get, I think, overwhelmed or maybe worried that typo might slip through if they self-publish. But that happens with traditionally published books too, right?

I think we read an article saying it was 6 I want to say it was 12.

No, that sounds like a lot. All right, 6 to 12. Yeah, I'm gonna say it was either 6 or 12, that the average traditionally published book still has between 6 and 12 typos even after it gets to bookshelves. And I feel like no matter how many times you read your book or your editor reads your book, nobody is going to catch everything. And I always thought that was super funny too because I read all my reviews We should have a separate podcast about just having stumpy fingers.

That's just a bonus podcast.

I read all my reviews and a lot of the reviews are like, oh, well, this was riddled with typos. And then I'll message them back and ask like, hey, I would love to fix any typos that you have. And they'll send back maybe like 2 things that they found, if they respond. Usually they don't respond because they're scared, but sometimes they'll respond. It's like 2 things, 2 typos in like a 100,000-word book. So they're quick to point out— riddled. Yeah, riddles with typos. There's two things I found. And they'll send like two things, and I'll change them, of course. But I always think it's super interesting how like in a 100,000-word novel, that they want to give the author credit for 99,998 words they got correct. They'll fixate and point out those two words they got wrong. And then leave a mean review, one-star review, saying it's riddled with typos?

Well, I think when someone sees that a book is— or suspects or knows that a book is independently published, they come at it with a very different perspective. They're gonna— I believe they do. It's like, hey, I bought this blanket at Neiman Marcus, or I bought this blanket— what did you just say— at Walmart? Expectations for the blanket are going to be different.

Even—

I don't know, not saying that— Neiman Marcus is a store. Okay, so I'm not saying that self-publishers are Walmart, but I'm just saying I— there's a certain different kind of expectation that comes out of it. And that was kind of a poor example, I apologize.

But then you know that exists. I thought you were making up stuff. I was like, I can make up store names too. No, I bought a book from Bubblegum's Boutique, then I would expect—

I just think that people treat it differently and that they may be unsuspecting to know like, hey, my favorite pair of shoes are actually much cheaper than my expensive pair of shoes. They were better, they work better, they are flat, whatever it is. So I think people just have a filter there and it's something to think about overcoming. And how many people that we know of or know personally who have been traditionally published and they still have their day job?

Yeah, and I think too our goal is that you wouldn't even know the difference between a self-published— when we publish something, yes, whether it's self-published or traditionally published. But I do know that there's a lot of authors out there that take being a self-publisher, indie, an indie author, as kind of like their— that's who they are. That's like a badge that they wear, will fixate and very proud that they're an indie author and supporting indie authors and put it out there. And I think that's great. Like, if that's where they find relevance and that's, you know, what they want to do, I say go for it. I've always been the mindset that traditional or independent, I'm just an author. I'm just a guy writing books. That's as far as it goes for me. I'm not trying to say like I'm an independent Hispanic author writing in this genre that's predominantly Caucasian or stuff like that. Like, to me, it just kind of I just try to keep it as simple as possible. So I'm an author, I'm a writer first, and that's it. That's where I stop. But I know a lot of people go ahead and are very proud and boisterous and loud about indie authors, and I think that's great. I think that's great if that's what they want to do. You do you.

The same thing I would say on the other side. Traditionally published authors and publishers may have a skewed perspective when they look at or consider independent authors. Like, some bookstores won't even consider consider having their books in the store for whatever reason. So there are two sides to each of these coins.

And I think that happens to us a lot. We know that happens to us a lot because I think people, when we say that I'm an author or what we're doing, they'll immediately put us in a box in their mind. That's why I don't really like giving people a lot of information about me.

Even when I go spill it all on the podcast, if they subscribe, they can know anything.

One of the questions I get asked all the time, all the time, is like, oh, how many books have you written? And I know what they're doing. Like, in their mind, they're trying to put me in a category. Like, okay, well, if he's only written one book, then in my mind he goes in this category. But if he's written a dozen books, then maybe he's in this category. And if he's written 60 books, oh, he must be doing really good or something like that. Uh, I would rather than just judge me on me instead of like some script because there's like 60 books and they're all horrible. So there's 60 horrible books.

So be it. But I think that's part of the thing is as humans we want to categorize. There's so much information and input that in order to have it make some sense to us, we have to find whatever that category is.

That's why I just think it's super interesting because to me it doesn't make any difference whether somebody has written 100 books or 50.

Right. But I don't care. Okay, I know you don't care, but someone has to find there's something that matters. There's something that— if you don't know anything about anything, or you know only a little bit about a world, and you're like, how do I begin to understand? So you start using these probing questions to understand and get some perspective.

And this is a true statement. I don't even count how many books that I've written anymore.

I don't know.

I don't know. It'll always be a mystery.

I want— no, it's not a mystery. I counted recently. I can't recall off the top of my head, but I want to say it's close to 75. Between 50 and 75. That's a wide number, but 60 on average.

Yeah. And then also, like, you know, do you count foreign translations? Do you count box sets?

No.

Do you count co-written books? Like, what do you count? What do you don't count?

Well, no, that's easy. What have you written? Did you write? Did you pen the words to that story?

How many words? Like if it's a co-written book, right? But 50%, yeah, or less.

If it's less and you didn't really write it, you were just, uh, what is like a story content, story creator. You were not the one who wrote it, right?

But we digress. So traditionally—

and what if I'm really good at writing and I just don't really want to put my name out there or do any of that? Are there any options for me in terms of storytelling?

You mean like ghostwriting?

If you don't want to— ghostwriting, can you talk about ghostwriting?

Yeah, so that's an option for somebody who maybe just doesn't want to do any marketing, doesn't want to like upkeep the social media, or for whatever reason doesn't want their name out in the public, or unable. Sure, they're like in witness protection.

Well, no, what if they just like, I'm not in a position, I want to put this out there, don't have the capacity— what? I'm not in the capacity, you don't have the capacity to create an entire platform and publish, but I'd be more than happy to just enjoy the process of writing and I have a knack for it and I'd like to make money using that skill set. Yes. Yes. Then that would be ghostwriting, right?

So you can find companies who are looking for ghostwriters and they'll basically kind of give you a story or synopsis or different story beats, like chapter by chapter of a story they want you to write. And you could always write and turn that in. There's lots of authors that use ghostwriters. So even though you may read an author's book, it may or may not actually have been them writing the book, right? That's just like a different path. Like a different path. Yeah, I say I know a lot of authors that do that, and I say more power to them.

You know a lot of authors that do a lot of different things, don't you?

Yeah, I get— well, I mean, just by default, 10 and a half years kind of doing this, we know a lot of— yeah, I guess you know a lot of authors do a lot of different things. But, uh, yeah, so that's another option.

What if I'm an author who really likes going and talking to people and I wanna do events?

Yeah, I think people write books for different reasons. So we know people who are maybe older and already retired and they've always just wanted to write their novel. They've always wanted to do it and it's enough for them just to see their book in print and they're happy with that. They're happy with writing the book and holding their book in their hands, maybe giving it to future generations in their family. And that's great, that's some authors. Other authors really are in love with the romantic idea of book signings and talks and events and stuff like that. I think if that's what you want, you should do it. So a lot of authors want to do that. So for those things, you don't necessarily need like a ton of books or series. Technically, you don't even really have to make any money to do that. Like, you could write a book and then just go ahead and go down those paths. You don't have to have the book be profitable.

So the very first thing to ask yourself, I guess, is what do you want out of it? What do you want out of this whole becoming an author, writing a book, right?

Because if you want to treat it as a business and you're looking to do it full-time and make full-time money, then it's a very different conversation than the person, you know, who just wants to hold their book in their hands.

And which is also different, you can kind of go down like a decision tree. Do I have the capacity? Do I have the resource capacity to do this myself? Do I have the patience and the time resource to pursue a traditional option? Because I feel like those are two different paths, then paths diverge, right? If you have either time or money to figure out how to do it yourself, that is one option. If you have patience and time to wait and pursue doing the traditional method that is another option, correct? Correct.

Yes. Yeah, I don't think there's any one path that was like, okay, you have to do this to make your way up the mountain. I think there's lots of different paths. Like we've seen the path that we've taken, especially now going into film, that I don't know of anybody who's done it exactly like this. And I'm not saying that's better or worse, it's just different. Like we each have our own path to walk. So me telling you, like, you have to do it this way isn't very helpful. Like, you might have a skill set that I don't know about that you could implement into writing books, whether you wanted to go self-published or traditional.

What about the notion, if you build it, they will come?

Is this Field of Dreams?

That was Field of Dreams.

Okay. I just wanted to be clear for the record. Let the record state Field of Dreams was quoted. I think over time, and you might have experienced this in other areas of your life, as long as you don't give up, you'll succeed, right? So the person who wants to be a painter, maybe the first 100 paintings they do aren't that great, but as long as they stick with it, it's like anything in life, like karate. You're doing karate, right? Yes. As long as you stick with it, you are going to get better. So as long as you really want to write, as long as you stick with it, you will get better and readers will find you one at a time. That's a harsh truth, but they're going to find you one at a time. Maybe you can speak to that too with being in karate and seeing your evolution over the last— has it been a year and a half? Over the last year and a half.

Well, consistency. Yeah, just consistency. So it's not just doing, but doing it and seeking ways to improve. And I, I will ask my senseis, like, how do I do this better? Can you show me different ways to be able to hit this mark? And they're watching every strike, every kick, every form, and looking at every aspect of the body. So it's not like I'm just continuing to practice incorrectly. I'm seeking correction for improvement every time.

Like with repetitions, you're going to get better.

It's just, it's not just blind repetitions, it's guided repetitions. But I would say also, there was a study done in a photography class with some students, and the dichotomy was this: take the perfect picture. And then there were those students who waited to take the perfect picture. And then there were those students who took hundreds of pictures to find the perfect picture. The students that ended up having the better photos submitted were those who took more shots because they were able to look and learn at each of those shots and how they would do it better, learn their lighting, learn their aperture, learn their composition, learn their subject matter and development in all of that. In the treatment of the photos. So from that I take is take the shot, continue to do it more and more, 'cause you also, you learn along the way and you improve because you're able to look back almost like watching your game film of what you did differently, what you can do better to improve on the next one, as opposed to waiting to make that one perfect shot or take in terms of photography. The other thing is about not giving up. I heard recently on another podcast that C.S. Lewis submitted 600 queries, 600, before he got a yes. Handwritten. There was not like email like we can try.

I don't even know there were 600 people to query to back in the day.

I don't know, but I know.

Good for you, C.S.

What's his first name?

Clive.

Good for you, Clive. Um, but if he had given up, we wouldn't have The Worlds and his allegories and all of the other wonderful essays and pieces and plays that he has written, um, that we enjoy today, that has really influenced our culture and specifically the culture within our faith system.

Yeah, every no gets you closer to yes. Now when we start a new project, whether it's film or podcasts or whatever it may be, I look forward to the nos. Like, I'm looking, actively seeking out the nos, because I know every no is going to get me closer to the yes. So in my mind, I just have a saying. I don't know if I've told you, like, it's time to stack the nos. Just keep on stacking nos, because sooner or later you're going to get a yes in there. Interesting. And in my mind, it's not like if, it's just when. So every no that I get, I'm happy that I got that no, because we got that out of the way. Especially with people taking meetings and stuff like that. I'm not going to name any names, No, because I'm not like that. No, not a snitch. No. But there are a bunch of people who I feel like will take meetings and then you'll never hear from them again. I'm thinking like, what? What? Why are we taking these meetings if nothing's— if you never had any intention of like following up or like if there's not going to be any follow-up, then we're just wasting everybody's time. I'd much rather you just tell me no, I'm not interested and be honest with me. And I can say thank you and move on. We can both move on with our lives as opposed to having, you know, like an hour Zoom call and then I follow up and then there's nothing.

The whole hour Zoom call is another thing. Why does every meeting have to be an hour just because somebody put that as the default on Zoom? Most conversations can happen within 20 to 35 minutes. The rest of it is just fluff.

Like, we're all adults. If you don't like the idea, if you don't want to talk to me, Just tell me and we can all part ways and go spend time on things that we're actually interested in.

Part of it is a discovery. Maybe they don't know, they don't have enough information to make a decision. And then once they get into it, they're able to realize and maybe they're thinking again on a limited conversation, they have a different expectation of what may be involved in the call. And once they're in there, they realize, hey, this isn't something I can help on or this this isn't along, or this is beyond where my expertise lies. So we don't know. Plus, you know that there's people that just— it's almost like a martyr, someone that just feels important by filling their space with meetings.

Maybe.

I don't know. We remember the Four Agreements: don't assume. We don't know. We don't know. It is what it is.

Yeah. So stack the notes. So whether you're traditionally published or independently published, I feel like you can be success— successful either way as long as you love what you're doing. Because if you love what you're doing, you would do it for free either way. So with time, with that mentality, you will start bringing in money. I heard a saying that the person who loves to run will go further than the person in love with the destination. So if you love to run, if you love to write, then even if you're not successful at the get-go, over the years you will become successful just because you love to write and you're getting out there by sheer willpower. You will be successful as opposed to somebody who loves the idea of being an author or maybe just wants to call themselves an author. So they will run, they will write to that point where they are an author and they have a book out. But then what? They didn't love to write in the first place. They just love the idea of being an author. So once they have that book out and it's not doing that well, then you stop hearing from those people.

How does someone know which it is?

If you would write for free. I wrote for 5 years for free, basically. Sure. Not making any money, just making a fool out of myself. No, it sounded funny to say.

That's, that's an insult to all those wonderful readers that joined group those first 5 years.

Oh, I don't think it's implied. And so I think they would laugh too.

Yeah.

Uh, but yeah, I didn't make any money, or maybe not make any. I remember the very first royalty check that we got, it was 30 cents. 30 cents. We made 30 cents back in the day, and we've just been able to grow since then. But yeah, for the first 5 years, I was just writing books and throwing them out, and you know, there would be like $100 here, $20 here, $30 there. But I had loved to write, so I knew that I was going to continue to write no matter what. And then eventually, I would say about, uh, after the first 5 years, money started to come. And then we've been able to build and reinvest into our company, and now to the point we're able to do TV shows, movies.

But if we didn't do TV shows and movies, we still have the film— I mean, the, the publishing the books. Yes, right. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So we're able to continue that. Now we're doing a podcast, which has been a lot of fun.

You said that last time.

It's true. It was true. Yeah, I still mean it, and it's true today.

All right, well, if you have any questions— not if, send us all the questions you have. Send them all to Jonathan. Um, leave them in the comments. I'm sure other people would appreciate those questions and may have similar questions.

On YouTube, they can leave in the comments. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple, we'll leave our information to contact us in the show notes so you can message us or send us.

Yeah, in the show notes, there's always our contact information and the website for the podcast itself. And those are both great places to reach out. We'll make sure to respond to every one of the questions about publishing.

Remember, the name of the game is don't give up. That's it. That's the only rule to this game. Don't give up.

And there's no one path up the mountain.

I like the no give up. Yeah, sure. I mean, that's also true. But if I had to say that there was one rule of success, it's just don't give up. Thank you. All right. Bye, guys.