House of Wolves Episode Thirteen - Putting Yourself in Miracle Territory

You should be a monster, an absolute monster, and then you should learn how to control it. There's an intensity to what we're trying to accomplish, and, um, you know, if you want to be truly great, you've got to bring it every day.

Do you enjoy pain? Pain don't hurt.

You blitz all night. Standing out is a long-term strategy, takes guts, and produces results. If you care enough about your work to be willing to be criticized for it, then you have done Hey everybody, thanks for joining us again for another episode, episode 13.

I think they're just like flying by now.

Yes.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that we've only been doing this in January. At the same time, I feel like we have so much more experience doing this, like setup and process, compared to, um, like, of course, like when we first started. So it seems like we've learned so much, and at the same time it's gone by so fast.

Yes, but we started in November and we've had some really awesome guests on and looking forward to having some more as well.

Yeah, especially as now we're getting off the ground and doing more in-person events. I think our sphere maybe of who we know is growing exponentially because, uh, somebody— just me, I'm pointing to myself in case you're just listening to this— doesn't— it's not that I'm afraid of going out and doing in-person events, it's just uncomfortable. So like, for me, comfortable is waking up when everybody's still asleep and then going to my computer in my office and then just writing. And at some point I hear little chubby feet on the ground, and it's usually our 2-year-old who wakes up first. Usually he wakes up first and comes and then our daughter wakes up and I get to spend the morning with them. So that's all very comfortable. It's uncomfortable for me to, uh, start thinking about like booking flights and booking events and hotel stays and mapping out a— not plan of attack. In my mind, I'm just gonna say in my mind it's a plan of attack. It's like who I'm going to meet and like, uh, for what purpose, and especially if we have a booth. If we have a booth, then it's like the whole booth setup and teardown. It's a lot.

Yeah, so some of that's logistics. Logistics, I don't feel anything about logistics. Logistics is logistics. As a matter of fact, it's not daunting, you know, coordinating the pieces. That's, that's well and fine. I can absolutely understand how going from in-home, in your own space, with your own rhythm, with, you know, you can't control the kids' temperaments, but you're in charge. Then you go into a place, 60,000 people are coming in and out over a 3-day period, and you must stay at the table as much as possible because they're there to see you and buy your books. And, you know, you're— no one's going to tell the story of the books quite like you. And, you know, those are all unknowns in that how busy is it going to be? How much are they going to come to your table? There's that little bit of resistance and marketing and validation involved in that. And then there's the different people, how are they going to react? What if, you know, do you have to be in charge of managing that conversation? Or are they going to be, you know, full of questions? So yeah, I can understand how that could be daunting because it takes so much navigation and attention and social cues and picking up on all of that stuff. And that is not necessarily within the realm of natural control.

So for everybody who's listening to this conversation, this podcast episode, we're talking about kind of getting out of your comfort zone And for me, that definitely means getting out and doing more events. So Jen was reminding me of the saying that if you want results you've never had, you have to do things that you've never done. So each year we've been pretty good about doing one event. We do one event for our pack where people fly in from all across the country to come and hang out for a few days. We do like ax throwing, take them out to eat, book signing, hang out with them.

Yeah, it's not like a formal event. It's just a chance to hang out in some fun environments with some friends who actually read your books. Not actually, you also read your books. But I will point out that you've done some author events where you've spoken on panels or you've led a section of a seminar or a guest speaker I think, and that's a smaller audience and it's within that comfort zone like you're talking about of—

That's easy. Yeah. So yeah, that's a good point. So we should make a— we should distinguish the two. So speaking events are one thing, right? Like, I'm fine at speaking events, go up and do a speaking event for like an hour, or if I'm on a panel for like an hour, and then there's just maybe a small book signing afterwards, people come up to the table and get a book. Sometimes there's not a book signing attached to that. Sometimes it's just a panel or talk. We do those all year long. Zoom ones, in-person ones, those are easy. What I'm talking about is like the big kind of like you have a booth, you have a table, you're there for hours, if not the entire day.

Because you— we just returned from WonderCon. It is Comic-Con International's little sister locally in Anaheim, California. And, uh, Jonathan was asked— because he won't tell you— he was asked to be on a panel there with some pretty outstanding individuals in the storytelling world in terms of Comic-Con. And, uh, we were able to then, through Providence, get a booth space. And we had, you know, big tables. So we did a small event again that came about through Providence because Jonathan, again, was not sure he wanted to sign up for a bunch of those. And it was very small. That was okay. Still exhausting, but this was on steroids.

So yeah, yeah. So to, to like start from the beginning, we decided that this year in 2023, we would try to go after those, some like live, the big in-person events. Again, not just like, you know, like an hour talk or like a panel or somewhere. We're talking like 9 hours on your feet. You're setting up the booth, you're there all day, you tear down just to wake up and do the same thing the next day, just to wake up to do the same thing the next day. We're talking about big events. So we decided that this year we had— Jen wanted to do like— how many did you want to do? Be honest. Um, how many are on your list?

Okay, well, no, there's a lot on the list because— let me clarify, I wanted to do a lot. No, 4 to 6. 4 to 6.

6 is a lot. 6 sounds like so much to me. So I was like, maybe we could do 4.

That wasn't my list. My list has many on there because I believe it. Well, it's research. What are all the ones in our target areas? What are their specialties? What are the attendants? Um, what, who's going to be featured there? What is their, I think I said specialty already. How many years have they been in existence? So I think having a list of 20 doesn't mean we have intention of attending 20 because they could be full or they could be overlapping, um, scheduled weekends. But the idea was 4 to 6 to lock in for the year. Yes.

So we compromised and I think we decided on doing 4, but then opportunities continue to show themselves. So earlier this year we had an opportunity where one of our friends asked us if we wanted to get a booth at a local event just in our area. So we did that one kind of like as our maiden voyage. It was only a day, it was maybe 6 5, 6 hours.

Yeah, it was pretty short.

It was a short, like, 5, 6 hours. This is our very first one with our booth, uh, outside, and I think we had a good experience. Like, it was manageable. We made some new friends and talked to a lot of people. Yes. And then again, so that was one friend who asked, like, hey, we have this opportunity if you would like to take it. And then again, I got asked by a different friend, uh, to be on a panel at WonderCon. And like Jen was saying, WonderCon's like 60,000 people at the Anaheim Convention Center. So I told— normally I probably would have said no thank you, but because we're in the season that we're going to try different things, because I don't do cons or conventions or anything like that, uh, I said yes. And go ahead, you can say something.

Yeah, I think it's key to talk about how you got your booth. Don't skip over that part.

Okay, yes. So I was asked to be on the WonderCon panel and I said, yes, I'll be there. So then I was talking to Jen like, hey, if I'm already going to be on the panel at WonderCon anyway, and we've decided to take on maybe 4 events this year, should we inquire about getting a booth space?

The answer was a resounding yes.

Yes. So I went ahead and contacted, we contacted WonderCon a few times. I emailed them once for sure. And I think you might have emailed them a few times.

I got your full details.

Um, no details are negligible. Oh, also, I don't know what negligible means, to be honest. So, okay, there's also that.

Actually, I think it is not negligible. I think the details of persistence—

stop using the words I don't know—

are key. So go ahead.

Okay, so, uh, couldn't get a WonderCon table because it was already sold out. It was like way past the time to apply. So Thursday you're able to go in and pick up your badge early because the event started on Friday. So I went on Thursday to go pick up our badges and I asked if they had any cancellations, like last minute cancellations for a table. So they were awesome to work with. The process that normally takes months of kind of like back and forth emails, like, yes, you're approved, here's the form, get your seller's license, let's get you into the system for payment. They're able to speed me through in the course of like 2 hours. We went through all the different steps that would normally have taken a few months.

And that many other people were attempting to go through at that same time, right?

Yeah. So not to mention any names, but again, give her props just to be like a Providence. I was in line. I went to go ask about if they had a booth open, and I was talking to a volunteer named Yashael, and she's like, you know what? That's a good question. She's like, I don't know if we have any cancellations. Let me go check. So she checked and she brought in her boss, and the boss was like, yeah, we actually do have some tables available. And that's when we started with the process of signing up for a table. So I moved to the side, and as we're going through this process, I hear another gentleman at the table— because it's a long table of people filing in to set up their booths— so I hear another gentleman tell somebody, hey, uh, the person had the same question I did, are there any last-minute tables that I might be able to pick up. And the gentleman was nice about it, but he was like, hey, we're actually not going to know if there's any cancellations or tables available until tomorrow, like afternoon or evening, so you can check back then. And I heard 2 or 3 people go up and ask the same question I did, and they all got told the same thing. Hey, we're not sure yet, maybe check back tomorrow to see. So if I had talked, spoken to anybody else besides Yasha'el who helped us out, I would have been told the same thing, like, hey, maybe check back tomorrow. And knowing me, I would have just said, okay, well, it wasn't meant to be. I asked, I tried, there was no booth. So I would just do my panel that I was on and not have a booth. But it didn't work out that way, right?

Because there was persistence. You had followed up, I had followed up, and then when you were in person to ask again. And, uh, it goes back to, they can't say yes if you don't ask. And if you had just checked in and been contented that there were no booths available, that we maybe we were on a waiting list and wouldn't they have emailed us if something had come available? But instead you asked again and give them the chance to say yes and to get us a killer spot too.

Yeah, the spot that we got again is Providence. So imagine a section of booths. So you can imagine the booth kind of like interior in all those aisles might not get as much traffic as a booth that's facing the main walkway. So we were able to get one of the few booths that was facing a main walkway. So we were able to get a ton of traffic. And it was interesting and fun to see how many people already knew us. Like, there was many people who had already read some of our work who are already familiar with either like the Archangel Wars or a person came up and said he's been seeing Guardians of the Galaxy around, he wanted to pick it up, so he picked up a copy. People were coming because they recognized Legends Online was something that I had a hand in writing. So there's tons and tons of people coming up. Archangel Wars is another one. Somebody said that was on their Goodreads list.

Yeah, Hunters for Hire. Hunters, I think. Yeah, but that was neat because we know all the readers are out there. We, we do all the marketing, we have connections with them, but it all feels distant. Because of the internet, right? And being in person to say, hey, I think that series or one of these series was on my daughter's Goodreads list, or I bought one of these for Christmas, uh, let me see about getting the others. I want to get them signed, or a different series. It was neat. Or another reader said that she'd read all of one series, she loved it. She— I forget where she said she picked it up, and she was so delighted to have the chance to, to meet and talk with Jonathan. So we had taken some goodies with us, um, stickers, bookmarks, cards, posters, postcards, sticker sheets.

Shout out to Lori Davies too.

Yeah, Lori Davies, your stuff came in clutch because like Jonathan said, we had expected that we weren't going to have this booth, so we didn't order additional items in advance. And we knew after day one people wanted something. And because of the things that you've created, people were so delighted to receive one of those items in their hand and be able to see the website, the books, all that available. But again, that all of this goes back to building relationships, taking chances, showing up, um, not taking no for an answer, or at least asking and giving the chance for someone to say yes and stepping into those opportunities. Because if you don't step into those opportunities or surround yourself with people who are conspiring, right, are wanting favor in your favor, so to speak, and you're not buying their time, but you're investing in the relationship, all of those things can come together to create miracle opportunities. And I think that was something that I read recently. You read it as well, but I think it stuck out. Different parts of that book stuck out to me was putting yourself in miracle territory. So if you want miracles to happen, they're not going to be happening doing the same things you've always done sheltered in your home without reaching out into new spaces with new people.

Yeah, and to be clear, uh, Lori had made us these really cool postcards that had a bunch of the covers of our books on them. So people love those. They're—

we gave them all out, but they looked amazing. Yes, they looked great.

And it's cool too because multiple people had flown in for the event to come to WonderCon. So I know that those postcards now are across the country. Oh, across the world too, because remember that one guy's going to Ireland. Who's taking his books to Ireland. So yeah, so all over the world. So yeah, it's, um, it was draining because I'm an introvert, so I can extrovert with the best of them. Like, I can hold the conversation like nobody else, like you're doing right now, like I'm doing right now. So it's not that I'm afraid to have conversations, but it's just not what I would choose to do, if that makes sense. I would choose to write instead of like going out. I think One of the days— not I think— one of the days was 9 hours. The first day was 7, 9, and 7. It was 7, 9, 7. Those are the days.

But even when you would take a break, say to go get food or the restroom or something, on your way back you would always stop by another booth to make a connection, right? Um, I think that was really cool because that had some fruit as well, some great things come out of it.

Yes, I mean, it was a profitable experience all the way around. Like, the panel went great. Our panel was on Sunday, our booth, we sold out of multiple books. Like, there was plenty of book ones that we sold out. So it's— and it's all a learning experience. And book twos. Yeah. So it's a good learning experience for us too, that if we do this again, what can we expect and what would we bring or what would we do different? So already I think we've upped our game from the little one-day event that we did, and from day one, and then from day two, day three.

But I— another thing that was key was that our expectations going in and our aim going in. Yes, we wanted to sell the books. That's a reason we were there in the first place. Well, second place. First was the panel. Um, the other was to connect with people and to love on people. Comic-Con brought all kinds, young and old, and new to the genres and seasoned, and people who had been going to Comic-Cons for 20 years, and people who was their first time, and people who liked fantasy, people who like manga, people who liked science fiction, all, all of them. It was just amazing. And, um, to not try to filter who we thought would be your reader or who would be a buyer or whatever it is, and just Hi, how's your day going? Great, enjoy the show. Oh, what do you love? Tell me more about that. And we ended up having people who came to our booth, maybe they bought a book, maybe they didn't, but they would come back multiple times and at intervals where they would come just hang out and chat. And they'd go and bring a friend, they'd bring their daughter, they would take pictures of the books and then go. One man, and he was like, hey, I'm back. Oh no, did you have a wife or daughter? I forget who you're looking for, but it was for his wife. And so I asked him, oh, did you send her a picture? He says, no, I'm just going to buy it for her. If not, I'm going to read it myself. But he enjoyed the experience there, and I think that made all the difference. That, and I know that though it was hard for you, are you in agreement that there were some people that we met that it was just— thank you for that opportunity to have interacted with them, that it was a blessing. Like Robert, the little boy, and his whole family helped him write that book.

Yeah, it was a fun experience for sure. Like fun and draining at the same time. Like, you know, we're talking more than half the time, I would say. So out of the 9 hours, I'd say we at least talked for 5, probably more, because we're talking to each other.

Yeah, we're not sitting in silence. Yeah, we have people next to us, our neighbors.

Jen runs a very tight regime. At her booth. So she has rules that you're not allowed to sit down when you're behind the booth, you're not allowed to eat behind the booth. So it was, yeah, so I guess it was non-stop talking. Yeah, because even if we didn't have somebody at the booth, you and I were talking.

Yes. Well, I tried to not talk to you in between to the best of my ability.

It was a lot. But yeah, so not only was it great to meet and interact with other readers, not only was it great to have that experience The panel was awesome, and we met so many— not just readers, but I think other content creators. So I'll give you an example. Larry— I can't remember if it's Houston or Holston. I think it's Holston. Larry Holston. He is the director and producer of the X-Men animated series. So I don't know if you remember watching that cartoon. It was like the very first X-Men cartoon that ever came out. Yeah. But I remember doing— I remember watching that because that was my childhood. I remember waking up early watching cartoons. So to be able to meet the director and producer who put that on— he also did Transformers the cartoon series, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the cartoon series, Fantastic Four the cartoon series. I think he came in season 2, he was saying, of Fantastic Four. But I got to talk to him and it was crazy. So I'll tell you what I've learned talking to other content creators. I have made the mistake before— I guess not a mistake, but I've I've introduced myself before just as a fan, and I think because they have so many fan interactions in their mind, they're like, oh, okay, this person's a fan of my work, not necessarily a— not equal, but not like a fellow content creator constituent or peer contemporary.

Yeah.

So not like a fellow peer. Right. So now when I introduce myself to content creators, even though I might be freaking out and super excited inside to meet them, I don't like, you know, gush or go crazy over them. I'm just like, oh, hey, my name is Jonathan. I also create content. And I don't lean on that I know anything about like what they did or who they are. And I think that in their mind, then it puts me maybe in a different conversation that we can have, like, oh, you're a creator as well. What do you create? Instead of me just saying like, I love Wolverine and Gambit. I can't believe I'm able to meet you. Like, I remember as I was a kid, I was watching your work. Right, and do that. So, Larry, if you're listening, love your work.

Uh, but love his work also as a professional, right? An innovator.

Yeah. So I was able to meet him, and I told him what was going on with kind of like what the content we're producing with books and TV shows and movies. So we're able— he was able to give me some advice. And I even told him straight up, I was like, I don't really want anything from you, because I think a lot of people might have maybe like some sort of underhanded question or alternate means motive. Of maybe meeting him. So I was like, I just want to talk to you. Maybe if you have— I can tell you what we're doing creating content, and as somebody who's been doing this a lot longer than I have, maybe you've gone through the same thing or you have some sort of advice that you could give me. And that was it. So we had a conversation. I showed him our Infinity System trailer and he loved it. And, uh, he asked if I could send him the trailer link. So I'm going to do that today. The con just ended a few days ago, so I can do that today. And he said he'd love to be involved in a capacity maybe that we could work out. So that was crazy. Yeah.

And he gave you his email address on the napkin?

On a napkin. Yeah. Because, yeah, I mean, I don't think he's there necessarily— like he said, such a fruitful career. I don't think he's there necessarily like to, you know, try to find work or anything like that. So it's not like he has business cards. I think he was there more for, you know, the fans and signing autographs and things like that. So when I asked him like, hey, Do you have an email or what's the best way to contact you? He's not there for that, so he didn't have business cards or anything like that. So he gave me his personal email on a napkin.

That's awesome.

So I have the napkin in my office. I'm gonna email him today.

Hope you don't get a bounce back.

Oh, that would be awkward. But you too, you were able to meet, was it Todd McCaffrey?

Yep, Anne McCaffrey's son. I didn't know, I don't know much about their writing together or any of that, but I recognize the name McCaffrey and I recognize it as Booth. Obviously Anne's stuff. And so targeting her on Facebook, aware of her content and what she's done.

You should explain what targeting on Facebook means.

Oh, sorry. Advertising and saying people who've liked or read Anne McCaffrey may also like Jonathan's.

That's better.

Sorry.

Sorry, she doesn't get out much.

No, it's your fault. So I just went over and said hi, and he started to talk to me about the stories and all of that. He had a wonderful pitch, and I said, I'm so— I haven't read any of this, my apologies. I'm admiring as a precedent in sci-fi and fantasy the work that your mom has done, that you have done. And so we were able to chat a little bit respectfully within his space so that way he can continue to conduct business for all the readers and the fans that approached. And so he gave me his email address as well. I sent him a follow-up, and as it turns out, we have a concentric circle of friends in the industry, and we will also be at an upcoming event together. So we'll connect again and have— it's a more professional event for authors, so we'll be able to talk more. And I don't have an ask from him. I don't have anything specifically to offer because I'm not going to assume that he has any needs.. But just to say thank you, best of luck, let's connect. I don't know where this is going to go, but I want to cheer you on and your wins and to know that we're not competitive. We're all in this together kind of thing.

Yeah, I think we're in a really good position now where it's not like we want to meet people because we necessarily want or need anything from them besides just friendship. Like, it's nice to connect to people who are on a similar path. And then maybe I have information on something that I've tried, that we've tried and didn't work out. And I can be like, hey, oh, well, we've done that, you know, definitely don't do that. Or we can give them advice, do it this way. And then they could do the same thing. Like, oh yeah, I went through this too. Like, hang in there and, you know, this will happen or something like that. Just sharing information and being friends.

Right, 'cause it could feel like we're working in some sort of echo chamber or that in a silo or, rather than telling someone what to do or what not to do, but to provide them the information. Here is information based on our experience and that, you know, some of the details and information of how that happened so they could apply that information to their own experience because that they may encounter completely different outcomes because of what they're going through, right? Putting yourself out there may lead to another big event. Is that correct? You don't have to go into too much detail, but to know—

Yeah, I'll go into all the details. Okay. What did you say before? Details matter?

No, you said details matter. Details don't matter.

No.

What was that word you used?

Negligible.

Well, sometimes when we're telling a story and you're like, land the plane or whatever, get to the end. If the details, are they relevant or can you skip over the details? The ending is much more important than all the stuff leading up to it, right?

So the panel at WonderCon went so well that there is an opportunity now— there may be an opportunity to be on a Comic-Con panel. So WonderCon, did you say it was 60,000 people? I—

that's what the website had said.

Okay. And I've never been to Comic-Con before in San Diego, but they said Comic-Con's 4 to 5 times as large as WonderCon. So we're looking at like hundreds of thousands.

Are they gonna put you in Hall H? I don't know. Excuse me, Robert Downey Jr. spit over Jonathan and his people have to come in.

Yeah, so we'll see. And again, it's just, uh, providence. So we were asked to be on a Comic-Con panel, so we'll see if it was meant to be. The panel will work out and we'll be at Comic-Con this year in a few months.

But you wouldn't be able to have been at Comic-Con if you hadn't said Yes, to WonderCon.

To WonderCon, right. And then we'll see, then the whole booth thing will, will go in the same circle again because it's already too late to get a booth. But if it is confirmed that I'll be on a Comic-Con panel, then I'll do the same thing. And it might be easier this time because now we know that people— because the same people who put on WonderCon put on Comic-Con, so it'd be the same people that we'd reach out to and talk to, like, hey, it's me again. Yeah, I still didn't get a booth this time, but I'm on another panel. Is there any cancellations? But it might be easier Now we have some direct emails, but they came by, we said hello, we reinforced—

it's a, what's it called, social contracts and social favors of what people do. It is professional because it's within her purview of her job. But at the same time, you could have got that other guy who said, nope, all closed down today. So just being there and remembering people don't owe you anything.. But like Gary Vee says, give, give, give, give, give, keep giving. And so, um, yeah, that's kind of how things work.

Yeah. It's interesting. Like, I don't give so that I can have, but it's interesting. I feel like the more that you're able to give of yourself, the more that you get in return. Like, it comes back to you. So I had, I had an author just asking this morning, like, hey, if I would be able to help them out with something. And don't get me wrong, we are crazy busy. Like, there's so much, there's so much that even Jen was saying, like, she— that she has to set up something that she has to set up that she hasn't even been able to get to for like weeks, maybe even last month, a long time.

I got a new computer, but I can't set up my new computer because I need time to sit down and pay attention.

Yes, definitely weeks, maybe even a month. No, I don't know. So like crazy busy. But I, I think of like how much favor that we've been shown and the opportunities and the kindness we've been shown. So like, how can I not say yes to that, you know, beginning author who's reaching out and asking for like help or advice? Yeah. So yeah, so I think we're gonna close now. So, uh, we did the small event, we did WonderCon, and it looks like we'll have another at least 2 more events, 3 more, 2 to 3 more events coming up this year. So we'll definitely keep you updated You can join our newsletter at jonathan-yanez.com. We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah. So you can join our newsletter. Thank you so much for listening. I want you to know that we don't take it for granted. We appreciate you and we appreciate your time spent with us.

You guys have a wonderful week.