How to Chart, Land Brand Deals, and Build Six Figures From a Podcast Nobody's Heard Of Yet with Alycia Chapman

Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen, the podcast that helps you to stop hiding, claim your worth, and build the most vibrant version of your life possible. Thank you so much for being here. Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen. And today I am so excited to welcome my next guest, Alicia Chapman. Feels like you've lived 5 lives in one, and I'm just so excited to dive in because you've traded scaling multi-billion-dollar brands to going all in on not one but three different companies. Also, you've got two beautiful kids, and every single podcast that you've produced has charted, which is incredible. Um, and you've navigated all of that while dealing with incredible personal circumstances that would make most people run a million miles from ever being visible. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story with us today.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on the other side of a mic. It's a, a really fun place to be, especially for your podcast, because this work is so important.

It's so important and I can't wait to dive into that a little bit more with you because something that I notice a lot is like— and we'll get to the strategy part because I think that's really valuable as well. But where I find like a lot of women struggle is like they get too caught up in like, I need to have the perfect strategy before I can start. Yeah. And they don't fucking start. So obviously there's tips and tricks that can help us chart, which is amazing. I can't wait to talk about that. But before you even get there, like, what is it that's holding women back in terms of actually just launching something in the world, whether it's like their podcast or their brand, or just using their voice and being seen?

Yeah, I think the most incredible thing that I've learned over the last even just 6 months— I've been so lucky to interview some of the best creators in the world. And sitting down with someone like Kayla Itsines, who has 43 million followers just on her personal pages, she still gets so nervous. And she still, every time before she jumps on stage or goes and does something, she feels really, you know, worried. What are people going to think? Are they going to 'Is anyone gonna like what I've got to say? Is my message going to land?' And everyone comes up against that, including most people who are gonna start a podcast. And that is the reason when you talk, speak to anyone, they're like, 'I've wanted to do this for years and years and years.' I'm like, 'Okay, so why haven't you?' They're like, 'Oh, I'm so worried about what people are gonna think. I'm so worried that like my message isn't important enough or people aren't going to listen.' And they're worried so much about the external that they've kind of forgotten the internal reason that they even wanted to do it in the first place, which is really sad to see.

Yeah, it really is. But I think it's also like they get caught up in like, once I have this like perfect 20-page document strategy for how to launch the podcast, then it's like they use that almost like as an excuse to procrastinate and perfect and like have that perfectionism towards it as well, which, yes, it's important. But if it's going to stop you from just actually moving forward, like I personally prefer to see people like take the messy action and then you can improve. Like, what is your experience with that? What would you say to someone like that?

So I think that having strategy is really important personally. Like, that is the one thing when we— and this is because we come from the background that we have, like, um, or every podcast we produce, we are treating like a business. So we're treating it as something that is bigger than just jumping behind a microphone, having a podcast for fun. It's like, how is this thing going to help you achieve your personal goals and your business goals? But that is not a 20-page document, and it doesn't have to be something that is crazy and convoluted. Like, for our end-to-end clients, absolutely it is. It's literally like a month of work. But for people that just want to help others, the only questions you need to answer is like, why are you starting this podcast? Who is it for? And how is it going to help them? And if you can answer those questions and you can map out like 10 episodes that you are so excited to record about, it's going to be a good show. Like, because you can feel the passion in the microphone, you can feel when you're really excited about it. And if you have a bigger reason to do it rather than just like, I want to start a podcast because I'd like to earn some more money. Like, that's, that's not going to be a great show. But I don't think— like, absolutely agree with you— not having a huge strategy is not something— not a reason that you should ever use to hold yourself back, because it comes as you grow. Like, you can have the most perfect plan, you could spend a month on it, and we've done this with clients, we've spent so long ideating something, and then we jump behind the mic and it's like, oh, oh, actually, you know, I want to try and do this instead. And so I think that having that big plan can be something that needs to always evolve. And so just starting and taking that messy as long as you have a rough idea of where you want to head and why you're doing it. I think that you just need to start and get the reps up as well, especially if you've never done it before.

Yeah, because that's the thing, it's like it has to be enjoyable for you to actually continue, or else you're just gonna abandon ship, like, you know, because you're going to be bored of it, you're not going to want to do it in the first place. So it's like it has to be something that you're passionate about. Like, what do you see as the biggest challenges, say, with some of the women that you work with like, do you see them get in their own head about that and like stop, like limit themselves and hold themselves back? Like, what are the types of behaviors that you see?

Yeah, absolutely. With our, uh, end-to-end clients, we do see that most of them already have a personal brand, so a lot of them have done the work. And that's the thing, right? Like, getting behind this microphone, the thing that will hold most people back is the mindset stuff, is the like showing up, getting on camera, being consistent, recording other types of content as well. That's the thing that most people get really in in their head about is like just being seen and doing that in the first place. So, um, most of our clients have done some form of work there, but the stuff that still gets in their head is like when they have a really big guest on— they know how to interview, they've spoken to them 100 times, they've got the research notes, they've got the prep, they've got everything they need to have a really cool conversation, and they're going to ask questions that that person probably has never been asked before, and it's going to really help their audience. But they still get in their head of like, oh, 'Oh, like, this is a huge thing and I don't want to fuck it up.' Oh, can I swear on your podcast?

Yes, go ahead.

But like, they don't want to fuck it up and they're really nervous about it. And so they get in their head about like, 'Oh gosh, am I even good enough to be doing this and speaking to this person?' And then when you're in that mindset, that impacts the conversation so much. Like, you, you would know this and have seen this yourself. Like, when you're not mentally kind of visualizing yourself as that person who has the podcast or has the content or has the brand that is doing the things that you want to do, you naturally like retreat and you're a little bit smaller. And so jumping behind that mic when you are with a really big guest, you often only have one shot at that. So we do a lot of work with them like, okay, cool, I know you're nervous, everyone gets nervous, but how can we get you behind and in that seat and in that— behind that microphone showing up as the person that has the podcast that achieves all the things that you want to do as well?

Yeah, it's such an important topic. And I think what you said touched on there is really important too, that it's like they're doing the work in one way or another. Like the podcast is just like the end piece of the product in a way. And that can be done. Like, you just build that muscle. Like, if for anyone's listening, that's like, how do I do that work? How do I get to that stage? It's just building a muscle. And that can be with anything. So for me, before I started a podcast, because I knew if I did it, I wanted to go all in and I wanted to be consistent. I know a lot of people finish before like even 8 episodes, right? They give up before 8 episodes. That's most people. And I was like, I'm not going to just like— this isn't going to be another thing I'm going to like start and then like I get too busy with like mom life and work and everything else and I just keep stop starting, stop starting. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to be really consistent with my newsletter. And I actually wouldn't let myself start a podcast until I had been really consistent for months with my newsletter, doing it weekly. And when I was doing that weekly for months, I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to add in a podcast and add that in. And I did take a bit of an unconventional approach, so I'm not sure what you're going to think about this, but I haven't even looked at my analytics yet for the podcast. And I'm like, I think this is like episode 20 or something. Yeah, but the reason being is more so because I come from a world of like strategy and marketing and all of those kind of things. And my challenge for myself was like learning to trust my voice. And it was a mechanism for self-expression and being able to do something and find my voice and find my creativity and make this like enjoyable creative process. Now, that being said, I'm kind of getting to the stage now where I'm like, okay, cool, I feel confident, I'm consistent, I'm doing it. Now it's time to start like looking at analytics and seeing how I can improve it and things like that. But for me, that was just— it felt really good to first make it like enjoyable just like focus on one thing first, which is just consistency, you know? And so I'm not in my head about all the other things and I'm just having really natural, consistent conversations because also what the— the other reason I started the podcast was to like get clips for social media.

Yeah.

And so that really helped as well, like being able to have, have those things. But yeah, like what would you say? Because like now I'm kind of getting to the point of the journey where I'm like, okay, it's time to take things up a notch. So for someone that's like been consistent with their podcast, they're like, yeah, I'm consistent, I'm doing it, I'm working on myself, I'm trusting my voice. Now it's time to like bring in some of the strategy. What are the things that we should be looking at?

The way you've done that is really interesting, and I think something that is really cool about that is not seeing the analytics and not getting in the download cycle. So most people, when they start a podcast, especially when they launch with us, I think every client has asked, 'How many downloads should I aim for?' I was like, "Mm, well, if you got into a room and you presented to 100 people and every single week 100 people showed up and they were so excited to listen to you and they loved every single thing that you said and they couldn't wait to come back and see you that next time, next week, would you be excited about that?" They're like, "Oh yeah, that would be pretty cool." I'm like, "Cool. Okay." So like, let's set that as a goal. And like, that is a tiny number. And most people go, "I should be aiming for like 10,000. Like, what's a good number?" And it's such a vanity metric. And like, that is a thing because followers are visible, real numbers are visible, like so much is accessible information for people to see how many downloads you are getting or how well you're performing with your content. But in the world of podcasting, you're not served by an algorithm. People are choosing to click on you. So downloads are important to see like what episodes are performing better than others. But in terms of like the number of downloads, I always tell people like, do not fixate on that number. Just focus on the quality of people that are there. Because again, if they are people that love everything you say and you've got a service-based business, and they flow into that. That's really important. Numbers that are really good to measure are your subscribers. So people that want to be there the week after and every week after that, and they get reminded by a platform to be there. You don't have to like post a reel and they find it, they're like, oh, there's a new episode. The platforms are saying, hey, the episode is out, go and watch that. The other metric that is really good to pay attention to is consumption rate. So you can see that in the backend of Apple and Spotify and some platforms. What— where do you host your podcast?

Spotify and iTunes. Perfect.

And do you— where do you upload it to? Do you know?

Um, I think, uh, because my VA does it, but I think, um, I think she might just do it directly.

Okay. There's usually like a, um, a platform in the middle sometimes, and it's called a distributor, and that will kind of push it out to Apple, Spotify, like iHeartRadio, Pandora. They're usually called like Buzzsprout or Spotify for creators.

We did do Podbean, but then that wouldn't put video onto Spotify, and because I do video, she manually uploads them, I'm pretty sure, to get video.

Yeah, there's so many different platforms now and different ways they can do it. So you can go directly to the backend of like Apple and Spotify as well, but the consumption rate will tell you how much of an episode people have actually listened to. So you might get, you know, 50 plays, right? But of that episode, they've only listened to 10%. So people have played it and then you've lost them and they haven't actually enjoyed listening to it. So following that and seeing that, most people get really in their head because they're like, oh, it's not 100%. Anything above 70 is good.

7-0?

Yeah. Okay, so 70%, anything above that is like great. You want to aim for that as your target and your baseline. And if it's below that, it's just like, oh, okay, why have I lost them? And most times when we look at that, the reason that people fall off is for some podcasts it's because they're making podcasts that doesn't match the behavior of the people that are listening. So like busy moms, we, we don't have a lot of time. Like I drive to the gym and home again and I listen for like I am the anomaly here, I guess. I listen to podcasts 24/7, but I do, and I listen on double speed. So like, longer podcasts don't bother me because I listen to them over a period of time. But other people, and we've spoken to groups of people and done polls with them, they're like, no, like, anything above 20 minutes, I just know I'm never going to get through it. And so that can be a reason, or it could be like there wasn't a retention, we didn't like sell what else was coming up in the episode, and so they weren't excited about the bit at the end because they didn't even know you were going to talk about it. So it's all these points of re-engagement, framing it, and then like creating content that people know what's coming as well.

You have charted every podcast that you've worked on. How many have you worked on?

Uh, we have produced over 1,500 episodes now. Client-wise, I've lost count. Um, we haven't worked with that like a huge number of clients because I've had two little babies over the last couple of years as well. I think we'd be probably sitting around 30 though.

So you've got 30 podcasts into the top charts. Yeah, that's incredible. What is the common denominator, or how do you even— like, let's say someone comes to you tomorrow, they're like, I want to have a chart-topping podcast. What, what are your— what's your thought process?

So we are super strategic with everything we do in terms of like building hype for the actual podcast itself. That's really important. You want people to be excited about the fact that it's coming. Something we do that I stole from Netflix is on launch day we will launch with 3 episodes, and the reason when we do that— they did it with Harry and Meghan, they've done it with quite a few, like, limited series where there might be 6 episodes or something— if you launch with 3, if you watch, launch with 1 episode, people will listen to that and they'll be like, oh, that was a good episode, I really liked that. But by the time your next week has rolled around, they've probably forgotten about it and they're listening to another podcast that they have. If you have 3 and it shows the diversity of the show, by the time they've listened to 3, not only do they really understand what you're about, they've fallen in love with you a little bit. You've probably got a little bit of your story in there as well, is what we always try and include. Uh, but by the time they've gotten to the third, they're closer to the fourth coming out as well. So they're so excited and they're like, oh yes, it's coming! And they're bought into everything that you're doing. So we do that. Um, and then, so hype, and then having 3 episodes to launch with. And then there are certain things that Apple will suggest you should do. I used to work directly with them in one of my roles, and the things that you absolutely need to do if they ever check if they're going to promote you. So So things like having a landing page for your podcast and having Apple as the first icon on the page.

Hmm.

And that sounds like, oh, okay, like that's a bit crazy that they're demanding that I would do that. They're not demanding. They suggest like this is something that you should have on your podcast landing page. And we know if they are listed first, they will always look in favor of that too. So having that landing page is not required to get on the top charts. That's not something that you need. It's just something if you want like an independent feature, they'll check like, do you have a podcast website? And if you do, do you feature Apple on there? And whereabouts are we and how easy do you make it for a listener to come and find us on our platform as well.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, amazing. And then what about like, and then when planning out the episodes, like, is there a certain format that you look at? Or like, what are the things people should be considering when they say go to create their first 10?

So if you are starting a podcast, the most important thing is always going to be who is my listener? And what do they need to hear? Not necessarily what do I want to talk about. That's really important. I say like you have to be passionate about what you're talking about, but what do they need to hear and in what order do they need to learn that? Because I think for a lot of podcasts, particularly in like an educational space, there's things that they need to learn at the start before you start going into like taking them on really advanced journeys. So say for example, like a business coaching podcast around sales and marketing. If you don't teach them how to even track their leads at the start, when you start talking about lead magnets and all these other things, they're going to be like, well, I don't know what you're talking about. So the order that they go in, um, the other thing that we look at is we have a content wheel for every podcast, and that content wheel looks at the different topics that you talk about because often they're going to be a little bit diverse, right? For us, every show that we have and every episode that we have has a particular theme to it. And a really good example of how this is implemented, we used to have a renovation show. It was one of my first shows, it was my first show, um, and how I got into podcasting myself, and we would talk about renovations most of the time. Some weeks we would have a new home podcast on, so talking to someone about building, knockdown rebuild. But if I had knockdown rebuild podcasts every single week, I would have lost everyone who is just renovating their house. So we have that content wheel to make sure that we're talking about like a diverse range of topics, that even if one episode is not going to really excite that person, the next week is going to be one that they love. So just making sure that you're cycling through those.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. And then what are your views on like guests versus just doing purely solo?

Oh, this has just changed for me. Okay, so I have always loved a good guest podcast. I've always done them myself. Solos were very daunting. I've just started doing them with my most recent podcast. And for our clients, we always do a mix. I want to build their credibility, I want them to have solos, and I want them to have guests as well. And guests are a great way to bring new audiences him. I interviewed Zachary Owens, who works with Gary Vee, and him and his brother have an incredible show called The Real O Show, and that show has millions of downloads. But a couple of years ago, they stopped doing guest podcasts altogether, and I asked him why they did that. I was like, why is this part of your strategy? Like, you went from these massive big guests— and part of it was logistics. Yes, hard, you know, people cancel, someone gets sick, like it's a big logistical effort to get guests in front of but they wanted to be the reason that people came to their show. And when you have a guest on, you have like this teeny tiny window where you're actually like talking and giving your advice and your credibility and showing what you know and building rapport with your listeners. And so if you don't have any solo episodes, you're going to have like this— it's going to be a really long time before someone falls in love with you. There are kind of exceptions to this. Maggie Sellers, Hot Smart Rich, she does this really well in that like she It's a brilliant podcast if you haven't listened to it. Yeah, it's so good. And she— you can see a lot of her personality and her stories through the way she conducts those guest interviews, and she makes it really fun and it feels like just sitting down with girlfriends. But if you don't have that style, it can be really hard for you to build connection with your listeners. So I definitely think regardless of it, if you want to build authority, then you need to have solo episodes and potentially maybe more solos than guests if that's one of your biggest goals.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how important is like the production? Like obviously you've got these incredible studios. And of course, I think especially if you want to use like social media content or you want to leverage having a guest, like I look at that as like, great, like let's— if you're going to bring in a guest and you're going to like get a beautiful studio, let's, let's get content, let's collaborate, like, you know, really maximize it. Yeah. But then when you're doing the solos, like how important is it to also do, do that versus like audio?

Yeah. So brilliant question. If you're doing any form of podcasting, one thing that you need to make sure you invest into is the quality of your audio. The reason for that is that if someone is listening to you and they can hear like a click going on in the background, or they can't really hear you and they have to turn you up on their speaker, their subconscious is going to have a hard time processing what you're saying. And the turning up and down on the speaker— I don't know if you've ever listened to a podcast and like they're laughing and it's like so loud, you're like, oh my God, my ears! And then you have to like rip your headphones off and then you put them back on, or like you can't hear what they're saying, so turn it off and then you get a fright.

Or a guest— one guest is louder than the other and you're like up and down depending on who's speaking.

It drives me insane. But that's a negative association with your show because you're having to manually do something to be able to consume that content.

Yeah.

So really important for audio quality, and it's not hard to do anymore. Like, we use Adobe Podcast sometimes if we have a really tough— there's a thousand other tools. I say Adobe Podcast, the team actually probably never use that because they're— we actually have an audio engineer who works for us. Um, I will use Adobe Podcast for like a real fail. If my audio is shit, if my mic hasn't plugged in for some reason, you just literally upload it, press enhance, and it automatically, like using AI, will enhance the quality of that. You have to be careful you don't sound too much like a robot, but like that's not difficult to do and to equalize it and to make the podcast an easy listening experience. In terms of the quality of the reels and that sort of stuff, obviously the higher quality, the more professional you look. And with your studio and your set, that there's two parts to this. One is building a brand. So like, you— with here, we often will tell people like, bring your own stuff in, like make this yours, like bring, I don't know, things that are representative of you. Don't have like our flowers and stuff on the shelves, bring your stuff and make this your home. Especially for anyone who's recording with us long term, we want this to be something that like people see that and they see the background, like they're branded.

That's your show.

Yeah, yeah. Um, the second thing, and probably the bigger reason that we chose to invest into this studio and why I love them now myself. And when we travel, we actually get like hotel rooms and we record in there because I can control the environment. It's the environment that someone walks into, and they walk in here and they're like, oh my God, what is this? And you can see them almost like rise taller. They're like, this is professional, like these guys are really investing at this. This is going to be an amazing conversation. And the energy just completely shifts, and you get the opportunity to sit down and have a chat before and after. Like, you can kind of do that via remote recording, but it's never the same as being in the room. And we, through our clients, have seen them make so much money from the conversations they have before and after recording with their guests. It's like, oh shit, I love you. Like, what do you do? Like, how do I work with you? And they have got so many clients just through using in-person recordings as well.

Yeah, amazing. No, that's such a good point because like you do, it is about building your brand as well. You know, you really have to think about like, what are you doing this podcast for? There's no right or wrong. I think, you know, there's, there's so many reasons you can do it. Like for me at the beginning, as I shared, it's like it was actually like more of a creative outlet and something I really wanted to do for content and things like that. But then it's like, okay, because I know that then video is really important, you know, getting a good reel is really important. Like they're the things that are important. So it's like coming— what, like you have to think about like what are you trying to do with this? And so what, like say if someone was trying to think about like, okay, what am I using this podcast for? What are the main ways that you're seeing them being monetized effectively at the moment?

I love this question too, because what do you think? What do you think is the way that most people make money off podcasts?

I would probably say that like a big one, especially in the world I'm in of like coaching, consulting, and things like that, it's like it builds massive trust. Like I know if I was to hire a coach or a mentor or something like that, like I would consume their podcast. I would want to know how they think about things, how they like see that I vibe with them, that I have maybe like just, you learned something even just from listening to their podcast, and that would make me feel a lot more comfortable investing with them if I was more ingrained in their world. Yeah, so that's the one that immediately jumps to mind. I know obviously there's other ways of like monetizing through ads or different things like that, but I know less about that.

So yeah, yeah, it absolutely is. For all of our clients that are coaches, their number one source of lead gen and nurture is their podcast. And we have clients that have made like six-figure returns from their podcast just because people will then jump on a sales call, or some of don't even have that now. They just have like an offer doc or a page where they can sign up depending on the offer, and they're just in. They're like, I've been listening to your podcast. Some of them will actually like recite things back from the podcast. They're so bought in because Google did this massive study, and, uh, there were more numbers to it, but I do remember it was 7 hours. I'll say that again, sorry. Um, Google did this massive study and you had to spend 7 hours with someone in order to build trust to buy time with them. And if you're consuming someone's Reels, that's a lot of Reels. That's like 200+ Reels. I don't know, 5 seconds real. Yeah. So, but spending podcast time with them, it's so easy to build those numbers up. Uh, so that is a huge way that most of our clients monetize. The other ways that you can is like brand deals, partnerships. We've had some incredible people on How Do I Podcast talking about that. But the thing they do differently— there are two ways that you can kind of get brand deals. One is like you work with someone like Acast or potentially get a network deal, and they just sell the spots for you. And you know, like, if you've listened to a podcast and there's an ad that comes on about a random product, the host hasn't read it, it's just like almost like a radio ad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those ones are programmatic ads, they're just placed in the podcast for you. There you earn money on that based on what's called a CPM, and CPM is cost per mille. So for every 1,000 impressions or downloads, you will be earning a certain percentage of that. So for some of those platforms, it's like $11. So I need to have 1,000 people listen to that ad to make $11. Like, that's not a very good return on investment. Brand deals, you can kind of go to the brand directly and sell who you are, the niche audience that you have. Like, again, going back to Renovation— Renovating Australia, there was a renovation podcast. So all the big kitchen companies, like, everyone was like, oh my gosh, everyone who's listening to you is renovating or going to renovate or thinking about it like that. I can't get in front of those people in the way that I can with you. Like, I'm so happy to work with you. And that's almost like an influencer-style relationship. And that's when you can think of your podcast as more than just an ad placement. Ads are great, but what else can you do? So for one of the guests we had on for How Do I Podcast, their podcast is called Bloody Brilliant Beers. They're amazing. And they had a partnership with Domino's. And so rather than just having an ad, they did like a pizza eating competition, and they had the Domino's pizza box on display in their studio, and they did all these other elements and some reels and parts where Domino's then became part of their world, and they earn a lot more money for it. But it creates this really beautiful relationship and also that brand repetition where people are seeing Domino's like over and over and over again. They're like, ah, yeah, I want to work with that.

It makes sense. At what point should people start pitching for those kind of deals?

We have had clients secure sponsorship before they've even launched their podcast. Because it's about what you're talking about and how you're selling it and how you're packaging it. If you can do that correctly, you can sell that to brands before you've even recorded your first episode. Once you are recording, you're going to have to back it up with numbers. And so then it's about, okay, the value of your audience and the value to that brand and what they're going to get from it. So in saying that, you still don't need tens of thousands of downloads because people these days pay for UGC content. So content created by other people that not necessarily is even posted on anybody's page. You create it for the brand and the brand posts it on your behalf on their page. So if you can create some form of value from them in terms of the content you create, it doesn't even today necessarily need to be about your audience. Your audience will of course make it way more valuable, but I think it's more about thinking about the box.

Um, that's so interesting. Yeah, and it's something just so worth considering when you are starting the podcast, like can you put yourself forward? But this brings us to a nice topic, like it links back to what about at the start, because, you know, it's about like, first of all, just being worthy enough to even like, first of all, speak at a podcast or be seen on a podcast. But then it brings a whole other element to like, can you now put yourself forward for a brand deal and say, this is what I am, you should pay me to just talk about your product? Like, that's a whole next level again of like backing yourself and actually doing that. So I think people probably have this like myth or just this false belief that like, oh my God, you have to be approached by brands. You know, whereas like they don't maybe realize that a lot of people are actually out there like, you know, advocating for themselves. Like, can you speak to that a little bit? Like, have you seen that like people are really going for it and like having like, you know, a hit list of 10 a week or whatever it might be? Or are they just waiting for people to come to them?

If you wait for people to come to you, it's probably never going to happen.

Like, never.

You have to be extraordinarily lucky to have someone from that brand to find you, to listen to you, to love you. Like, I'm not saying it's not going to happen, But it's the same with speaking gigs. And I was at an event recently with Annalise McCarthy. She is phenomenal. And she was talking about getting speaking gigs. And you have to— she said you have to keep asking until you're annoying because speaking gigs won't just fall in your lap. And brand deals are exactly the same. Like, they're not just going to stumble across you or find you. Like, even the biggest influencers in the world— we have worked with some really big influencers— one of them has had something like that happen with a brand that they— that kind of knew about them already and really loved the podcast. But the rest of them, like, it's all proactive outreach. Reach. So you've got it, but if you don't ask, you'll never get—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know a concept that's been like— that I've been working on recently, which is like— sounds so counterintuitive, but it's like been actually just really eye-opening and really good to do, is like really just, um, actually wanting rejection.

Yes.

I know that sounds really crazy, but it's like I've got this in— I realized that I have this like deep down like fear of being rejected. And which a lot of people do. And it's like, how can you take the power away from that? It's by actually seeking it out. So it's like, can I put myself in positions daily where I get rejected? Because number one, it loses its power and it's not a big deal anymore. It's like if you fall off a bike every day, it's like you're not scared of falling off your bike. You're just like, I just fell off the bike, I'll get back up again.

Yeah.

So it's building that muscle and it's taking the power away from it. But it's also meaning that you're probably going to be a bit more authentic in what what you're doing because you're not like just navigating through like, oh my God, I can't be rejected. And you're actually just like going after what you want because that's no longer like a big issue. So I would actually challenge anyone listening that is either creating a podcast, because you said it's even before the podcast, if you're creating a podcast, if you have a podcast now, like make a hit list this week. Use ChatGPT, like figure out even if it's like the worst pitch ever, it doesn't matter. Just like, why not like do it, you know? Is there anything that you would add to that that might make this approach more effective if someone wanted to try that themselves?

Absolutely. So we get 400+ pitches a month because we manage our clients' podcasts and they are people wanting to be on the podcast. Okay. And so we see this. I've also worked on the other side of this when I was in one of our startup companies and working with influencers, and we get people who wanted free product from us. So we get people wanting to partner. And 99% of these still today, which just destroys my soul because they're written by ChatGPT and it should know better, is is what they— what's in it for them. So, you know, I've— we've had someone come to us and be like, you have a really big audience and I think I'm launching a new product and it would be great for them, can I come on your podcast?

No.

Like, that's okay. No. Um, and so what you need to do with any form of pitch, whether it's pitching to be on a podcast or pitching to work with a brand, is think about what's in it for them and make it so easy for them to say yes. So So even going back down to the brand deals themselves, thinking about that particular brand, what type of content are they creating at the moment? What type of partnerships are they doing? And then who is your audience? And is that someone that they are actually going after? And then in your pitch, you really want to be able to just like sell that message to them of like, hey, this is who I am, um, this is what I'm creating. I love this about you. Like, go to their values page on their website. Side. And if you can kind of weave those values through your pitch as well, like, there's so many ways that you can really create a partnership offer that is all about that brand and then really makes it clear for the value that they're going to get from working with you and your audience.

And do you need to have all that outlined ahead of time, or can you just start with like, I'd love to collaborate, I'd love to find a way that we can do XYZ, without saying I'll give you 3 reels and a podcast and it's going to cost X?

Yeah, I think I would always— and we do go in with like an initial soft pitch. So like, we'd love to collaborate with you. And then the way that we do it— and we are doing like bigger deals, like we're doing big deals for these podcasts when we are involved with them. So then we jump on a call and we're like, okay, cool, what do you guys want to see out of this? I'm like, okay, cool, well, we have this, this, this, this, and this. We don't have— and I know other creators do— they will have like a set package that they do. They're like, cool, okay, glad you want to work with us. Here's our ad, here's our reel, here's this cost, like kind of mix it all together, menu items, and choose what you want. Um, for us, we really want every partnership to be something that is customer bespoke to that brand so that it gets them results, so they want to work with you again, which I think is important. And if you haven't done a lot of brand deals, going with that soft sell first, and then them being like— a lot of them, if they're big brands, might just come back and ask for your rate card. Um, there's so many good resources about how to build a good rate card, and I think a really good place for podcasters to learn is from anyone who's doing UGC coaching because it's, it's kind of similar in the way, right? Like you have to really sell to the brand why you. Yeah. But also what's in it for them from working with you.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I think that's a great place to start because essentially it is UGC in a way because you're just like you're creating content, you bring the product into the world and that's a great way to look at monetizing your podcast while you're building it up as well. So I think that's awesome. So you have interviewed some incredible creators. I did listen to your one with Kayla Itsines recently, which is incredible. What are some of the most, like, surprising things that you've learned about podcasts and content and building brands? Like, what are a couple of the most surprising things that you've learned recently from all of these incredible people that you've talked to?

One that sat with me, which I did mention before, is that at the end of the day, all of these people are just humans, and they still get scared, they still get really nervous, they still aren't sure about so many things that they do. And you would expect, like, with the outward projection that they have, that all of them would be like, boss ballers, and like they do give that outward presentation. But for all of them, they all are still just people at the end of the day that are really worried about the impact that they're having in the world. I think something really cool that I've taken away from everyone that I've spoken to, and it's a common thread between them all, is that with podcasting or any form of content these days, you really have to take people on a story because people buy from and they fall in love with people. And we were even just talking before we started recording, it's not necessarily like the educational stuff that you say that is going to stick with people and the reason that they want to work with you. It's probably something really stupid from your life that's completely unrelated to whatever you sell or promote or talk about. And people want to see the journey. The more like behind the scenes you can show of your life, your process, your work, um, and that's what they're all doing. And the content that is performing really well is taking people on that journey. Now, our page right now, Life Is a Little Chaotic, doesn't have a heap of that, but that's something that I've taken away. And when I do implement that, we see a huge, huge uptick in the downloads for those episodes because people are bought into the episode. It's not just a reel and like, oh shit, that was a good takeaway, I want to go and listen to it. They like see the prep, they see the thing, they see me talking about why it's going to be good for them, and then they see the reel and they're like, yes, I need to listen to that episode. So the more you can take them on a journey, not only will they trust and love you more, but it's also your content will perform better as well.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And, um, yeah, that's just so important to, to really note. And I think like for anyone listening, because I'm just like, you know, as I even hear you speak, it's just like you come across so well, and you obviously are so incredible at what you do. Um, but something that actually you and I have in common is that, like, I— or, like, I also had a very troubled childhood, and, you know, just different things in my past that, like, you know, you probably look at you and I now and just think, oh, well, it's easy for them to show up, it's easy to have to do podcasts and things like that, but there's been a shit ton of work to even be able to do some of that. And, you know, for you, you've very vulnerably shared a bit about your story online, but, like, how have you you gotten to this position now where you can sit comfortably in front of a camera, on a microphone, and share your story? Like, can you tell me a little bit more about that, what that journey has been like for you?

Of course. And I think for anyone listening, like, this work is never over. Like, I still have to do this work every single day, and I still always will. Like, I think every level there's a new devil, and just when you think you've overcome something, there will be another thing. Like, I did have a really violent childhood. A mantra that was said, like, all throughout my childhood is that children should be seen and not heard. And I was really quiet for a long time because of how controlling our household was. You know, I was so controlled in that I had to sit at a separate table to eat to everyone else, and I wasn't allowed to eat for like, leave for literally hours until I'd finished my food. It was a very violent place and everything in my life was controlled. The one thing that wasn't was learning. And at school I got so much like love and connection and praise for doing well academically. So I really went into an academic space for a very long time and went into all sorts of special programs and things like that. And that became something that then, as podcasts evolved and came out, I was obsessed with podcasts because I, I had that passion and affinity for learning. And I had always wanted to, I guess, be the best. Like, I wanted to give people a reason to connect with me. And that comes back to all the stuff that happened when I was little, and I didn't get that attention, I didn't get that love, I didn't get that— I did from my mom, and I need to always preface that my mother is one of the most incredible humans in the world, and took us out of that scenario as soon as she could. But it was, yeah, a really interesting childhood. I think the most interesting part about that is that I did find my voice, I guess. And I saw all these people posting online and doing fitness content and bits and pieces. Like, I can do that. I want to go to the gym. Like, uh, Kayla had seen us, had just launched her BBG guide, and I started doing everything, started posting stuff, got some really cool brand deals, and I grew my Instagram at that time to 30,000 followers, and it was amazing. I was working with brands that I adored. I got like a sponsorship deal with My Kitchen Rules, like so many life-changing amazing things. And one of our closest friends, I had just spoken about getting injectables because I got them for free, and they're like, that content is so embarrassing. Why would you talk about that stuff? Like, why are you doing this? Everything that you're doing right now is so— they didn't use the word cringe, but like implying that everything I was doing was just stupid and And I know looking back now there are so many layers to that conversation, but I actually stopped posting after that. And so I went through this big journey in my childhood to getting confidence, to putting myself out there, to doing so much work, to finding my voice, and then just kind of regressed again. Because again, this work is so— it's ongoing for your whole life. And I think even now today, like, I'm growing a platform again. I've got a whole new audience. We're doing a whole heap of different things, and I'm putting myself out there doing some really really incredible content with big people. But big audiences also mean lots of people coming and having an opinion, and they're not the people in your safe bubble that love and respect and admire you. They can be people that are just keyboard warriors that love just saying anything. And so it's a journey now that I really have to work on every single week to still show up and to still put myself out there, even on the days where you might get a comment about like how dumb your reel is, or comments even on your like your physical appearance, which is just trivial and stupid, but it's still— it's so rife in the online space today.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's— and that puts people off a lot. That's what they're really scared of. Um, but you know, I love how, like, you've literally said that podcasts have saved your life. Yeah, like, can you talk to me a bit more about, like, how— why, why that happened?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, when I was out of high school I had still had that like behavior ingrained of like wanting to learn everything I can. And so podcast came out and I was working at the time at a really fast-paced startup, and it was somewhere that I'd never had any experience before. I didn't know anything. I kind of like almost, looking back now, fluked my way completely through the job interviews, um, just by like being really tenacious and proving that I would work harder than anyone else in that room. But I had this huge knowledge gap because everyone that was working there was from Deloitte or Uber, and they all were so educated on— it was a tech company as well, so they were so educated in fields that I'd had no experience. I lived on an island for 6 years before that, like, I'd never worked with tech. It was my first time. I still remember, like, my first week, they gave me a Mac, and I'd never used a Mac before, and it's a tech company, and I couldn't even, like, scroll down the page. I'm like, guys, I belong to be here, I'm sorry. Uh, and so with that, we— I had to fill that knowledge gap really quickly. And so the way that I did that is I consumed every bit of knowledge that I could. And there were so many times where I was in rooms that I really shouldn't have been in. Like, my next role that I got headhunted to was for a multi-billion dollar corporation, and I was speaking and presenting to boards and pitching with CEOs, and my entire team were older than me. And the only reason I was in those rooms is because I, every single day, chose to show up like the people that I surrounded myself with. And they were like Gary Vee, Andy Frisella, like all of these incredible podcasters that were in my ear every second from my— the day— time I left my house to the time I get to work. And any knowledge or skills gap that I had, I filled that with podcasts, was the way that I learned.

Yeah.

Um, and so it fast-tracked so much of my career to get to where I was then, but I think when I talk about it saving my life, it's literally— podcasting now has given me so much purpose and so much growth. And especially, you will know, like, being a mom, you— I certainly did. I lost myself after I had my first baby, and I didn't know who I was or where I was going, and I was so uncertain of everything I was doing. And for our clients, the ripple effect that come from creating a podcast— like, we are not just creating a podcast because that client wants to have that podcast. We're creating a podcast because of the movement that it can become, because of all the people that it can help if they just hear that message. And our, like, our biggest thing is getting the podcast into the ears of the people who need to hear it most. And so the purpose that we have with TBC and the clients that we work with is something that has been able to just really inspire me through that whole crisis of, like, losing myself post-baby, um, and baby number 2 happens again, and now we do like really phenomenal work and work with amazing people too.

Yeah, it's incredible because you never know who is listening and learning and taking away from that. Like, you have absolutely no idea. And it's just incredible when you do bring it back to like you're actually impacting people through, you know, what you're, what you're doing and coming back to like that purpose. But yeah, no, that's— I mean, that's an incredible journey because even like growing up, I mean, I know for me that like, you know, when you do grow up in an environment like that, when there's like a lot of control and a lot of essentially like the people around you are, you know, in some ways you don't have a voice and you're being muted. So for you to then be able to grow and as an adult, like choose yourself and back yourself, even though ingrained in you is like you've nothing to say, like you're not, you know, you've nothing worth saying, all of those things like that's a massive shift for anyone to make. And that's incredible that you've been able to do that. But what like how did you actually get to that place, like, with your identity? Like, how— what were some— what was some of the inner work that you had to do to be able to trust your voice and to be able to, like, leave some of that in the past?

I think I almost— I'm just a little bit delusional. I've always been very tenacious in terms of if I want something, I will do anything that I can to get that. And so, uh, a kind of pivotal moment for me is after we left the abusive childhood situation that I was in. We moved away. My mom gave us the most incredible life. But anyone who's been through domestic violence will know that it runs in cycles, right? And most of the time, like, your children will look for that same sort of environment relationship because it's so familiar to them. So I was really stupid— and not stupid— I, I fell into that cycle, and I had the most horrific boyfriends growing up, and they were absolutely awful. And they were the same type of men, boys, um, and they were really abusive emotionally, physically, everything in between. And the first boyfriend that I had, my— he cheated on me. And I kind of don't recall a lot about that time because one, I was in my teenage years, but two, I also feel like I've repressed all of those Memories. And, um, my mum just— someone had called her and she came straight away to pick me up. And I just remember crying and crying and crying, and I wanted to like keep his hoodie or something stupid. It was like, no, she's like, this is the moment where you are choosing you and you are not doing any of this shit again. And like, that was really hard for her. She's a mum, she has to be a mum and a dad, like the good mum who's consoling me because I am like going through this huge emotional breakdown, and the had, who was having the boundaries to say like, no, this is absolutely not on. And she did the same again years later when I fell into a similar relationship, and she said like, no, absolutely not, you are choosing you. And so the work that I have done since that day is working on really looking forward to like what I actually want from my life. Like, if I was on my deathbed, what regrets would I have? What things would I look back on and be really sad that I didn't do? Because in some ways, Mum those things and even taking us out of that situation in the first place, they have given me a second lease of life. Like, I would not be here. There is no way, not even just in this physical room, but I would not be alive if she hadn't done those things because of the relationships I was in and the path that I was headed on. And so the fact that she did those— like, every single day I have to look at like an opportunity to actually do something incredible with my life. And I don't think you need a huge traumatic event to have that mindset. Mindset. I think it just needs to look at, you know, every day on— in this world, you're so privileged if you get to wake up, if you have internet, like, if you get to go and choose what you want to do. Like, I've heard— I think it might have been Erica say it— around the fact that it is a privilege to choose to not do something, because there are people out there that, like, have to put it all on the line because they have no other choice. So if you're choosing not to do it because you're scared of failing, you're so privileged to even make that choice. And so I think it's just constantly reminding myself of that and the fact that, you know, the only person that's ever going to hold me back is myself.

Yeah, yeah. And like, thank you for— you're so brave in sharing that because there's so many people that will be going through similar things. And it's like, if you take me back to that girl, how do you go out and advocate for yourself and use your voice when you're essentially being silenced at home?

Um, when I was little, I don't think I did at all. Like, we left when I was 11, so I feel like the only place I had a voice was school. Um, now, and when I kind of had made that decision and left probably the relationship where I was the eldest, I just kind of looked at all the things that I was limited on and almost in a way rebelled against it. Um, and I chose to rebel so far the other way. Like, I went from this girl who was not allowed to have any friends, who was not allowed to text anyone, who was not allowed to have Facebook, was not allowed to have— I don't think Instagram was a thing, but I was definitely not allowed to have Facebook. That got deleted off my phone. And I went from that girl to literally like running events at uni and like working as a bartender where I met my now husband, and doing all these things and putting and throwing myself so far into the world because it had been taken from me for so long. So I think it wasn't some huge journey that I went on, it was just, uh, I have been silenced for so long and I'm choosing not to be.

You used it as fuel, it sounds like.

Yeah, yeah.

But that's incredible that you were able to do that.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it just comes back to almost like— and I would do have moments now, I'm in a very different situation, right? Like we're, um, got two beautiful girls, I have a husband who I absolutely adore and is the most incredible dad and partner. And so now I get the comfort, and I do get moments now where I can choose to be like, oh, I'm a little bit scared of launching my course, or I'm a little bit scared of doing this thing, or even starting this podcast. Like, I've wanted to do the podcast I have now for 2 and a half years, and I didn't do it. So the girl that was coming out of uni and doing all those things, she's a badass. But like, me now, I have privilege, and I don't have to do the scary things. And so the way that I motivate myself to do the scary things now is to think about two things. One, the question that I ask myself around what regrets would I have looking back. And the second thing is looking at how selfish I am if I don't do them. Because doing the things that I am, if you look again at that ripple effect and the impact, the people that I can help just by making myself a tiny bit uncomfortable— like, podcasts are free. So if I go and interview this person and I get some insights and it helps someone else start a podcast that maybe helps people that are going through domestic violence, or helps people who have family that are struggling with cancer. Like, that is such an incredible thing to do, and the only thing I have to do to make that happen is get a teeny tiny bit uncomfortable myself. Like, of course I'm gonna do it.

Yeah, I love that so much. It's— sometimes it's a bit hard to hear, but I love the phrase that it's like, you're not to blame for what happened to you, but it is your responsibility. And it's like, it's your responsibility to take what happened to you. Everyone has obviously had like challenges in their past and things like that. But it's— you can do— with the only thing that you have control over and power over is like how you react to that, how you respond to that, what you do with that. And that's such a beautiful example of you looking at like, like a very negative situation and seeing like, what did that teach you about yourself? And it taught you, I want to use my voice, I don't want to be silenced, I know what I don't want, and now that gives me clues as to what I do want. Yeah, and I think you're right. A lot of people are just very comfortable and they're like, I don't know what I want. Like, I don't know if I want this or I don't know if I want that. And sometimes it's like you need to know what you definitely don't want and then you're like, I want the opposite of that. But like, we can go in cycles of recreating things. And I did the same in so many areas of my life with like, you know, recreating the chaos that I had at home, recreating that in business and, you know, having to go through the pain of doing that to kind of come out the other side and be like, whoa, like, why did I I do that to myself? Because in a lot of ways, I can just see all the patterns now where, like, growing up, it was very controlling. I wasn't really allowed my own opinion in a lot of ways, like all those things. And like, everything I kind of did was always wrong. And then I created an agency where you're at the mercy and demands of clients. You're— no one is ever happy. There's always someone not happy. Like, every problem you're ever going to have is going to have a first and a last name. And an agency is people, you know, this team, those clients. There's always someone happy. There's always a deadline missed. There's always something going wrong. And so I was recreating this business that reinforced the message to me that like every day you're doing something wrong. And then because I was so unhealed and all that trauma, I internalized all that. It's like, I am wrong, I am bad. I every day, like, it's like I'm doing something shameful in a way because I'm letting people down. I'm doing something wrong. I'm like dropping the ball in some areas of my life. And I was like reinforcing that message again and again and again. So recreating that environment and kind of using all all those things as like a whipping stick to like prove to myself how bad and wrong I was, you know. And it's just like, it's so fascinating to, to, to see those patterns and to start looking at like, where did that come from? And am I doing this again in some weird way now? Because it's— you don't— it's not very clear unless you do a little bit of excavating and you're like, wait, why am I doing that? And is like at the time that wasn't clear to me that that was what I'm doing. It's only kind of now that I see that and I'm like, wow, I was just literally like recreating that dynamic because that's somehow felt like for me to live in shame, that felt very comfortable. Yeah, that felt very normal. That felt very safe in some weird ways because it was my familiar feeling. And I think when you think about like creating a podcast, like creating a brand, all those things, it's like, yes, it's scary. I get that, it's scary. But why is it scary? What's the fear underneath it? I think if you do that work, it will reveal so much to you. For you, it might have been like, if I share my voice, it's unsafe and there's physical violence associated with that. Major fear. That would give you such fear to use your voice. For me, it's just like there could be things about rejection or whatever, different things. But it's like until you know, like, and do that digging around, like under the surface, like what is that fear from? Where is it stemming from? What did— like if you did like do a podcast, no one listened, everyone hated it, etc., then what? Fill in the blank. And then it's like now you've got the root of your problem. That's your biggest fear. And then that's what you need to get to lose its power. You know, you need to do that work for that. To lose its power, essentially, so that you can actually use your voice and have a platform and then start looking at the strategy as well as doing some of that. Yes, some of that inner work. Totally. Is there anything else you'd say to someone listening that is like, you know, maybe in a journey at the moment where whether it's like at home or with their kids or just something in their life is just really like out of alignment. And so they feel like it's hard for them to show up authentically because they're dealing with this, these personal challenges and navigating with these personal challenges at home that like make them feel like scared and, you know, um, just uncertain to actually be able to put themselves out there in business.

One of the times in my life that I created probably the most connection was after I had had my first daughter, and we had a really, really tough time navigating sleep, navigating her eating as well. Like, my, uh, she had a lot of intolerances, so she was really restless. She never slept. She was upset all the time, and they were just due to things that I was consuming and breastfeeding, and she would have that. But I shared that stuff on Instagram. That was the reason I was not creating content. That was the reason that I was probably really shit at my job of leading people, and even for our clients at the time. And I shared it just asking other people like, have you been through this? Does anyone know what to do here? And I met the most beautiful people during that time of my life that was really difficult. And even just the moms that are like, oh, yep, I've been there. And so I think if you're ever going through a hard time and you're like, oh, I don't want to show up because I'm going through a hard time, those hard times are where you actually build connection with people. And I'm not saying like show up and go cry on Instagram, because you've got to do what's right for you and I personally don't do that type of content, but I don't just paint this like beautiful picture of rainbows and stuff like that and everything is perfect. I now show so much more of the actual behind the scenes of being a parent, of running 3 businesses, of doing all this crazy stuff in my life, and the fact that like things do go wrong. And I talk about that so often. Like, I have been a terrible leader in my business over the last few years, and I have the most amazing team who've carried the ship and have looked after our clients. But like, I've really let them down in some spaces being a mom who was so sleep deprived. And I talk about that, and then I talk to other moms or other business owners, they're like, oh yes. And my team know, they're like, oh, you're self-aware, you're not just crazy, you actually know that that was not a good time for me either. And so I think the more you share, the more connection you build. And so if you're really scared because you're going through something really difficult, I'm not saying that you need to force yourself and make time in your day if you're a really busy mom with a baby that doesn't sleep. Like, maybe that is just not the right time for you to start a podcast or do the thing, because there are times in your life that that is not the right choice.

You have to know the season that you're in.

Yeah.

And don't try and deny that you're in that season.

Absolutely. But if you're just doing it because you're like, oh, worried about what people think, share the heart, because that's where you build connection.

Yeah, 100%. And yeah, I love that so much because that, that it is that discernment of like, is this really the fear that's stopping me, or is it really just like I need to give myself some grace like I've got two little kids or whatever it might be, like this will still be here in 6 months. Or is it like that you just do it like, like, like I just interviewed Erica Kramer before this, but like she started in her car during nap times and just like accept that like, yeah, okay, I really want to start a podcast right now, but it's not the season where I'm going to be able to do it in this like glam, you know what I mean? Like polished way. But maybe that's going to be incredible for your audience because maybe you work with moms, you work with whatever, and you're like showing up in you're just like showing them a living example of like you doing the thing while also navigating XYZ. So you can make that part of your story and part of your journey as well. So I love that you did that. And I totally relate because I was someone that was like so on the ball, like I really prided myself for being like so on the ball and then had two kids and I feel like I was letting people down left, right and center all the time. You know, I would take 5 weeks to respond to someone on email, like just like, and I just had to accept kept that and really had— I think it was good for me in the end because I did wrap too much of my identity around being the productive person that got back to everyone really promptly. And so, I had to be okay with letting people down and knowing that that doesn't mean something about me personally. And then that led to some of the decisions I made about letting go of that agency and things like that because I had to be realistic about like, this is not— like I can't run this kind of a business and be the type of mother that I want to be.

Yeah.

And that was a decision I had to make, and I had to stop gaslighting myself into thinking that, like, it's because I hadn't, like, worked out the secret code or I hadn't, like, tried hard enough. It's like, no, I can't put lipstick on a pig. This is what it is, and I have to accept that, like, I don't want this.

Yep.

So yeah, there's a lot to navigate there.

Definitely.

Yeah. Well, this has been such an incredible conversation, and I've just loved talking with you. For anyone that's listening, where can they get in touch with you? Where can they they find you?

Instagram is always the best place. You can find me over at Alycia Chapman, which is A-L-Y-C-I-A Chapman underscore, or podcast is How Do I Podcast. And if you are wanting to start something, there are so many incredible creators on there that have shared so much. Literally every episode feels like a masterclass, whether it's like what sort of social media should you create— and it's not just for podcasting— it's like what sort of things should you be doing if you want to build an audience that actually loves you and connects you with you, whatever platform on. So definitely over there.

Amazing. Definitely check it out. It's such a valuable resource and I love diving into your episodes. So thank you so much for joining me today.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.