Why You’re Still Comfortable (And Why That’s The Problem) with Erika Cramer

Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen, the podcast that helps you to stop hiding, claim your worth, and build the most vibrant version of your life possible. Thank you so much for being here. Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen. And today I am so excited to have Erica Kramer, who I'm just so excited to have on the show. And as soon as you meet Erica, you just know you are the real deal and you have lived a life that, you know, would have broken so many people and you've managed to turn that into a global movement. You're a bestselling author, twice TEDx speaker. You've coached something like 7,000 women across 60 countries. Is that like— can I have whatever you're having? And you've got two beautiful kids, thriving marriage, like you're doing it all. So I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here.

I love you. Thank you for having me. We're doing this finally.

Yeah, so exciting. So I thought we'd start somewhere light and easy and just ease our way in. I just want to talk about the link between debt, shame, and, uh, oh, I'm actually losing my track of thought. Debt and shame, basically.

Yes, that's a great topic. I'm like, I love that. Yeah, debt and shame.

Yes. So nice light topic to ease yourselves in. But I just— there's so much to cover in your journey, and I feel like there's like— we could fill like hours and hours of conversation. But one thing that I think is so incredible about your journey is like you have come from like after all the crazy stuff you had in your childhood and growing up, but then you were in $150K debt.

Yeah.

And then you managed to like build this global empire. And I've been in a similar position where I've made bad business mistakes. I've had debt, I've had things that like just made every mistake in the book really growing my businesses. And I work with women. There's so many money stories and shame stories. And so what I would love to talk to you about is like that journey of not just tangibly how do you get out of debt, but it's also like you're trying to coach people.

Yeah.

And you're trying to live your best life and be your best person, but your physical reality is reminding you every day like you are like not in that place.

Yeah.

And then all the questions of shame and like, am I a fraud? Like, for me anyway, you know, it's like I would love to just hear that story. Like, that would take me back to that place.

Yeah, I love talking about it. And I think, I think the only other person that seen talk about it is Rachel Rodgers. And she's an American author and she's a business coach. And she talked about how she was grateful for the debt. And I really think that we can only create what we can create with the limited capacity that we have here and now. So I'm not a billionaire for whatever reason right now. And so I have no access to becoming a billionaire. So my best case of becoming a billionaire would be to learn from billionaires on how they became billionaires. In order to do that, I would probably need to pay them 'cause that's how they became billionaires. They're not gonna do it for free. And so I would I have to find the money somehow in order to get myself out of this situation to step into, I wanna be a billionaire. And my was nowhere near billionaire. It was like, I'm dead broke. I was toxic. I had so much trauma. I had just a lot of bad things that happened in my life. And then I found myself at the point of not living the life I wanted to live and not where I wanted to be or where I thought I would be when I was at that age. Had 2 kids. I did not even do it for my kids. A lot of moms are like, I'm doing it for my kids. I'm like, I'm not doing it for y'all. Y'all don't even know what's going on. I'm doing this for me. And so I felt like, I could either continue going in the route that I was going with the limited knowledge that I had and lack of awareness for so many things. You don't know what you don't know. Or I could find credit cards, multiples cards, I could find mentors and I could pay and just go and learn and become another version of myself. And that version of me could then figure out how to make the money and take the action off of what I learned to then come back and pay that shit back. And so I fully believe for me, I'm not gonna tell anyone go do that. Like no one that joins my program, Am I like, you can't afford it, go get a credit card, girl? Would never do that. But for me, if I had to do that again, Katie, I would do that shit yesterday. I would do it again over and over because I was not going to get myself out of the situation I was in. I needed someone else to do that. And in order to do that, I needed to find money that I didn't have. And then it was so cool to then the first year we made $160K. Like, that's 11 months into my business. I don't know shit about business at the time, and here I am making that money. And as a girl who grew up on food stamps in the hood, like, over $100K that I made. I didn't go to college at the time. It's like unheard of in my family, unheard of in my friend group in America. So I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't put on the cards. Then that's messed up and risky. And credit cards are there to mess with you. And Afterpay is not good, but sometimes people need that as well, you know? So I guess that's the part around the debt that I would, I would do it tomorrow again.

What's interesting to me as well, like listening to you speak about it, is it sounds like there wasn't actually that much shame linked with the debt, which can be massively— with people when they are in debt, there's a lot of shame. But it sounds like you were very actually intentional in saying, I'm taking a risk here. But it sounds like— and correct me if I'm wrong— you weren't like, oh my God, how did I get here? You were like taking ownership of it.

You're talking to my husband. I was like, oh yeah, shit, that's bad. Okay, okay, yeah, that's not— oh, what? I did what? Like, because my husband met me— what a catch— um, multiple cards. I had gone into debt when I was in the military. So I was in the Army for 10 years. As soon as I got out of boot camp, I got a credit card from Victoria's Secret and they gave me a credit card. I didn't know anything about money. I hadn't grown up with money, had a lot of bad beliefs around money. And so I went into debt even before I came to Australia and started all of that. So I had brought that across the ocean with me. Mm-hmm. My husband met me, he was an accountant's son, or he still is an accountant's son. And so shout out to Hamish, who was always like, uh, wait, that's not a good decision. Wait. He manages our money in the business and now has taken me on the journey. So I'm aware of it, but I didn't know, and I just didn't know any other way. And I'm a resourceful person, so I I will find a way. Like, that is for sure. I will do things that most people won't even think about. I will figure it out. And so at the time, I was like, I just— this is what I need to do. But when Hamish and I kind of started looking at our numbers and what we were doing and what we wanted to build— we didn't have a house at the time, we had this car we were paying, I had wasted like $8K on furniture of an apartment really that we were renting that wasn't ours. I made a lot of bad decisions, and he made them with me. And I think he felt shameful. And when he kind of schooled me on why none of this was good, then I was like, oh, I didn't feel shame, but I felt like, oh, that's a bit of stupid decision. So my belief had always been, you're a stupid Spanish girl from the hood, so like, you're stupid. So if I can't figure something out today, that'll try to come in and go, oh, it's because you're stupid, that's why. And I'm like, no, no, that's not true, I have evidence. But that's kind of mine, where his was shame, fear, because of his dad. So we had it, I think, after we realized, like, air quotes, we should have known better. We're this age, we've done this much work on ourselves, how come we don't know? Um, so that definitely came into the picture. And then the mistakes that we made on, like, mentorships, and pretty sure I joined a cult at one point in that show. Still can't talk about it on the podcast because I don't want to get sued, but like, I'm positive it was a cult and it was stupid what we did, but I'm also grateful because like we learned. So yeah, so that I kind of took on Hamish's shame, um, but quickly I realized that I had to do that, that that was the only stepping stone that I could see. And I don't have a family, I don't have anyone here, so I was like, that's how I'm gonna do it. And because we were able to see the outcome of our actions, make money and impact and have no cap. Like when you own a business, you don't have a cap, you are your own cap. Then that was like, we don't have to worry about it.

Mm-hmm.

So the shame for me never came where I owned, like, I'm a bad person. Mm-hmm. Um, but you said something which I think is important. And for me, my values are integrity, like my number one value and communication is number two. Like I have to be integral. I'm not about to tell you what it's like to be a mother and build a business if I don't have kids. Mm-hmm. And too many people are doing that. Just saying.

Yeah.

So I wasn't teaching women how to be financially savvy.

Mm-hmm.

I was teaching them how to clean up their trauma, how to heal their life, how to be confident, which I totally had. Whether I was dead broke looking for coins in my car or had a million dollars, I could teach that. Mm-hmm. I think when we're trying to teach people how to manage money or make a lot of money or be a money mentor, and there are some out there you know of and they're, they have scarcity problems, I think that is out of integrity. Mm-hmm. And that's a journey that each of us have to make sure we're kind of treading that line of like, wait, am I teaching something I know nothing about? Yeah, I'm not with that part. And I think because I wasn't teaching money, I was okay.

Yeah, you know, that makes total sense.

Yeah.

But I think what's so important about what you said is like you really took kind of like responsibility for it and you were very aware of what you were doing in a way. Because for me, like when I had made a lot of business mistakes, like I used to use that as like a whipping stick almost, like, you know, like shame myself for it. And then a coach that I was working with at the time said, you have to stop doing that because it's like one part of me would do that. But then she was just like, you know, you're using that as a whipping stick, like, oh my God, who are you to do anything when you like are, you know, paying back debt, etc.? But then she was just like, you are choosing that because you've chosen to close. Like, I made decisions by closing certain businesses and things like that. And I had two kids. And so it wasn't like I can't make it back. It was like I'm choosing to change my life and I'm choosing to change how I operate and how I work. And that's going to take me longer to pay that off because I'm not continuing to do something that is totally out of alignment for me. And so that was like I really had to take ownership of like instead of just one part of me being like, who the fuck are you to do anything? You've got this, like X, Y, Z. Yeah, it's like I chose that.

Yeah.

And that really changed a lot for me.

So I think it's important when you have people that say, hey, you're doing amazing. Like, in the fact that you've had multiple businesses as well, like, you're a boss, you're amazing, and you have kids, and your, your savviness— like, I feel like also when you think about what you've paid for, it's kind of like a college degree, you know? Like, a lot of people didn't go to college, or, you know, like, hey, I had a college degree on what not to do when you open a community. Like, don't build a cult, or don't have sex with your members, or, you know, like, don't do all this inappropriate stuff. And we could look at it as like, what an L, you know? Oh, it's always a loss. Or actually, I paid to learn in real time what I don't feel is comfortable or nice or kind. And like, the things you would know now, imagine, like, yeah, you're teaching your clients and they— this is what kills me when clients are like, how come it costs this much to work with you? It's like, baby, I'm saving you not only years but money, mistakes, time. This is why mentorship is so important. So yeah, yeah, it's—

I couldn't agree more. So how did you go? Because like, okay, so the shame thing sounds like it wasn't such a big thing, but you still had to literally change your whole identity to be someone that has never made money to you know, making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the beginning. And you said something very important there, which is like having the evidence. But before you have the evidence, yeah, how did you do that? And like, if someone was listening now and they're— let's just say they're— whether they're in debt or they're just in a position where they feel like their evidence in their physical world has not caught up to where in their mind they should be, how do you go about like changing that while still feeling authentic? Yeah.

So I have two things. The first problem I have is a problem I'm trying to solve. To solve actually right now for this kind of person. And this person A, who has to kind of do it but has a job, or things are okay, or her partner or his partner is working, and there's a level of comfort— they're not in struggle town. So that person's very hard, and I want to choke them. I love them, but I can't get through to them. And so I'm trying to find in my own work right now a way to get through to that woman before she turns into person B. I was person B. Person B is you have no other choice. You are at the bottom of the rock. Like if there was a rock bottom, you're under that. You are screwed. You must, you're gonna die if you don't do it. Like there's absolutely no other way out. So when you're up against the wall, you turn around and you break a hole through that wall and that's how you get out. So I was at that level. I wish I was like, you know, listening to stories and being like, I should do this, I'm gonna do it. But most people don't do it until they have to. So they're not gonna like the answer, but what I find that happens is your kid gets sick, somebody dies, you get cancer, you know, you lose everything. Like one of the 4 Ds happens in your life and you're like, oh my God, near-death experience. All right, let's go. And then you become unstoppable and nothing gets in your way. Not even your husband, not even your family, not even this. Like you just go after it. Nobody needs to believe in you cuz you are so like, let's go. And those people make it. But what has to happen for you to become that person is ridiculous. And I wish we weren't like this. And I'm a psychotherapist and done life coaching for over 10 years. I could tell you human behavior, unfortunately, if there's any ounce of comfort, if you are under the blankets, any bit of Netflix, any bit of chill, you're not going to move. So something has to happen ridiculously to wake your ass up to go, hey, this is like urgent. You got to do this like right now. Like you don't have time. And if we live in Australia, if anybody's listening from Australia, Well, God, we better hurry up. Even worse, this is so comfortable. The government looks after people. Everybody's got jobs. There's no competition. We got 23, 26 million people. We have Uber. We don't even have Lyft, right? There isn't innovation. There's no one chasing you that's like you or better than you. Where in the States, there's 17 Erikas in my face. I love it for me, because then I'm like, oh, shit, I got to get better. But here, when no one's chasing me, I think I'm the best. And then I chill, and then I lean back, and then, oh, the thing that I want is not happening. And it's like, why can you even doubt? The fact that we can doubt is such a privilege. It's like, I wish that people didn't have that privilege to doubt 'cause they would move faster than— it's the most frustrating thing for me when I see women that I'm like, are you serious? What are you doing? Why, why you take 3 months to think about your ideal client? Like, girl, let's go, let's move.

Yeah.

So I was person B and it sucks. Like I had to lose everything and that fire in my belly. So if you are not wanting to be person B, I would say tap into the bigger picture. Like, why does it matter that you do what you do? Can you see the person that you're here to help? Can you see the impact that it's gonna make? Can you see what it's costing you every day to not go after it. And that should hurt you. That should keep you up at night. That should make you cry. Like, you should feel something. Like, you should feel out of sorts if you don't go after it with everything you have in you. And I say if your partner doesn't back you, because my husband did not back me. He did not think it was a good idea to quit my $80K job at L'Oréal and build a podcast from my phone in my car and use swipe up on Instagram to sell out my programs. He thought that was a bad idea, you know? And I was like, I don't care. I'm just gonna— I have nothing else. And so then he was like, sorry, babe, good job. But I'm a fucking beast. I'm a beast. Like, I'm not playing. And there's a lot of people that are not at beast mode yet. And I'm not talking about hustling, ladies. I don't like to hustle anymore, but in the beginning I had to hustle because everything was on the line. And I think we need that. We, we need that. Like, what's driving you? Can't just be validation, likes, followers, a million dollars. Like, my shit is bigger than me. When I die, I want this to keep going. And when you're tied to something that big, I feel like that's when everything can work for you. But you have to show up for it.

Yeah. Definitely. But you also have to be able to show up, right? Like, and all the stuff that you went through that would have kept you in, like, playing small, feeling shame, like all those things. How do you— like, so one part of you has this massive ambition. You're like, I am here to make a dent in the world. Yeah. But was there any part of you that was also, like, terrified for actually putting— so how did you navigate that?

I feel like I— my husband in the same house was like, I don't know what you're doing. Like, he— all my old YouTube videos that no one's watched, but they will one day. He's like, doing this when I got the camera. He's like, can you use the camera? Why are you filming? I'm like, oh my God, I told you I'm gonna have a camera in our faces. So he wasn't with me. He was kind of like, this is stupid. I don't know what you're trying to do. And that's hard to have, like, the love of your life, the father of your children, or the partner that you decided to be with, be like actively in your home doubting you. And I felt like, Kady, I had like this, this like shield. And I have this shield. I'm very like, I will hug you and kiss you and love you, and you can get all up in, but your stuff doesn't touch me. So I had this like shield, like, I love you, husband, but you are not gonna get in. Like, I am on laser focus. There's no way you're gonna get into my— I'm not doubting, I'm not taking your fear. He had scarcity money issues, even though I was the girl from the hood and he grew up really good. He had money issues because of his dad, like shame money issues. And once I knew you're a creator, like some mentor said, not to me, but I watched him say it to someone else. This lady was meant to go to this event and she didn't have the money. And two women were talking and he was like, All right, so you guys are coming. And she's like, yeah, but I don't have the money. And the lady looked at her and was like, you don't have the money? You, of course you don't. You create the money. You create the money to go. And I was just watching like, like what? You create the money? And then I was like, oh my God, yeah. Who has money? Nobody has money. You create money. Money is a create. You're a creator. I'm telling you from there, that changed everything. My husband wasn't there and even though I told him the story, it didn't hit the same. And so that shifted. I let go of everything. I was like, if I don't have it, I don't have it because I haven't created it. So I am in charge of creating it as much as I want, as little as I want. And so I feel like that was hard dealing with Hamish not believing in me at the time. I was breastfeeding like a 4-month-old baby and then I had a crazy-ass 2-year-old toddler. I was working for just, you know, at the moment. Okay. So, oh my God, girl, like that is just, it was hectic and I don't, I don't wish this. Like, I'm not like, I hope that you have to struggle like I did because it sucked. Like, I'm not joking. I don't know what carries me. I used to have this analogy of like, the universe is like my coat hanger. Like, here I am, my threads are on the ground. Like, I'm hanging on by a thread. I'm just like on the floor and the universe is like, I got you. And I'm like, are you sure? Because I feel like I'm just all on the ground, like this dirty cardigan on the floor. But I'm like, one little thread's like, nope, nope, nope, I'm not gonna let you go. And I just felt something was holding me all this time. Like, You're supposed to do what you're doing. I got you.

Don't worry.

Just keep going. Don't allow yourself to fall off the freaking coat hanger. And so something was pulling me. I think it was all my past stuff that happened. And I definitely think I'm supposed to be doing what I'm doing now. But it was very difficult to navigate his lack of trust and then the audience of zero. I was showing up on live and I had 2 people watching, right? No one was watching. No one gave a shit. Trusted me and I had to show up like there was millions of people. So I had to remember what I wanted in the future in the present moment, which was not the same. And so I think a lot of people don't ideate enough on the vision of the future and what they see in the future. And I see for me, the only person I can look at is Tony Robbins. I love what he's built. I don't want to be him. He's him. But I love what he's built in regards to all the arms of his coaching businesses, the big events, the high energy. I'm like, that's— so I ideate I take him out and I put my little self on that stage and I'm like, that's what I desire. So I'm always like, that's it. So when I'm doubting, I'm like, don't forget, that's it. Somebody in the audience there needs it. And so that kind of drove me when I was lacking, when no one was watching, when we had no money. You know that anxiety feeling in your belly when you're like, shit, you gotta pay how much tax? Oh my God, what do we have the money? Like, it's so stressful. And I think instead of giving up on ourselves and not believing that the dream is for you, those are the moments where you have to be like, I'm gonna have a big cry. I'm gonna go in the shower, whatever you gotta do. And then I'm gonna get back up and go again and not stop going again because it's supposed to be so hard. Like, the 1% make it to— what is it, 7 figures? Like, the 1%— like, there's not a bunch of Hormozis walking around. He's a beast. And I'm not saying you want to be like him, but he's an animal in the way that he does what he does. And if everyone was like that— like, not everyone is like that. And so I think that we have to be driven by something more than the money and you have to be embarrassed. You have to hate it. You have to go, this sucks. You have to go, I'm no one. I feel insignificant. I feel stupid. I feel dumb. I feel shameful. I don't feel as cute as her. Like, you have to go through that. And I think we don't want to. Yeah, we think that that's bad. And that was Confidence Feels Like Shit, my first book. Like, this feels like shit. Like, none of this feels good. Good job. And you're like, wait, what?

It's supposed to—

like, yeah, high five. You doubt yourself. You had to do a spiritual poo. Like, you feel sick to your stomach. Amazing. You do a great babe. And it's like, wait, what? Like, this shit— that person makes it look so easy. It's like Yeah, but you don't see before we hit record what happened. You don't see when we leave what happened. You don't see— there's so much we don't see. And so I try as much as I can to be honest about the fucked upness of this. But then you hit this place where you're like, here it is.

And then when someone's like, you're so lucky, you're like, bitch, you have no idea.

I got skid marks in my undies I can show you. Like, I am not lucky. Like, this is— we worked, you know, which I think is even better. And all I've done is I've shown the skid marks in the undies. Broke as hell, overweight, breastfeeding baby, holy shit, doubting to, oh my God, TEDx, oh my God, Penguin, whatever. I've showed all of it. So I think if we can show it when it's yucky, when we don't want to, the trust that you build there because you're a human, we're all— nobody's skipped this shit. We just decide not to show you.

Yeah.

Which I think is shit.

Yeah. Well, yeah, 100%. And I love everything you said because I feel like there's, you know, in this conversation of people being too comfortable, I think a narrative that I see I see again and again is also like almost like spirituality biting people in the bum. Yeah.

And I'm a very, like, I'm a very spiritual person and I'm very—

I love personal development. I know you love personal development. You love spirituality. Yeah. And a common thread in that world is like responsibility, self-responsibility. I put myself into this situation.

Yeah.

I do think there's like a fine line of taking responsibility for things and then using it as like, oh, I obviously am good enough or haven't done my spiritual work or else I wouldn't be in this situation. And like taking it as like a blame evidence that like you shouldn't be like a speaker or a big brand or this or that because it's not working out for you. Something's going wrong, this is going wrong. It's like, oh well, I'm obviously not like spiritual enough or I'm not like— I haven't, you know, unlocked the secret to life in some way. So how do you navigate that? Because I feel like that really stops people like, you know, they, they take something going wrong as like they just question everything.

Yeah, like maybe it's not for me, or—

yeah, yeah.

I, I feel— I have a client that I spoke with recently, um, and there's like a seeking. And I think when someone's a seeker, they're lost, right? So if you're seeking to get on a stage, if you're seeking to get chosen, if you're seeking spirituality— like, think about a seeker. Like, I imagine someone in— like, I don't know if you ever watched the movie, you probably did because you're a mom's soul Disney? Yeah, she's like in the field and it's like, oh, and all like you're seeking, you're looking for the thing that is yours, you're looking for that. It's like as you look, the less you find, because people will hit you with all kinds of stuff. Is this for you? What about this? Why don't you do this? Or you're looking to the side, seekers start to see other people and go, maybe I should be doing that. And, and it's not discernment, it's not, it's not self-led, it's not self-mastery, it's not self-leadership. It's very like I don't know where I should be. I should be somewhere else. No, baby, you should be exactly where you are. If you're broke as hell right now and shit's not working out for you and everything feels difficult and the algorithm hates you, you need to be there. It's a pit stop. You're not there forever. But there's something in that zone or that level you haven't learned. It's like, let me find my lesson here. Unlock next level. So I try not to fight where I am, or I try not to think I shouldn't be here, or it should be faster. Like, this happens to me every freaking day. I'm like, why am I not on Tony Robbins' stage yet? Why am I not? Like, how old am I? When am I? I haven't been to Europe. I'm 42 years old. Like, I should go to Greece. I haven't been to Europe. It's like, well, you're 42. It's okay. You still have the rest of your life. But I'm like, but I should have went by now. It's like, who said that? Like, chill. It's okay. You know, maybe I die tomorrow. Maybe I die when I'm 99 years old. Like, I can't push something that's not naturally happening. And then my desire to push of it is from lack and scarcity. And then it also can be from comparison, or from I'm not enough compared to who? I'm not doing this well compared to what? Like, so I try to— I think journaling, I think therapy, I think self-work, and really looking in the mirror. And what I said to my client was like, you have to trust the process of where you are right now. And I hate that. I hate when people say that because we don't want to. We want it to be different. But what's the reality? It's— you're here. Why should you be here? Because you are. And I love Byron Katie for this. When you fight with reality, she says you lose 100% of the time. We're here. Well, we shouldn't be here. Well, you are, baby. So why are you here? What part of you picked yourself to be here? What part of you needs you to feel this pain or have this issue? Or maybe that's how we build resilience is like, oh, that's not working. No one has me on their stages. I'm not getting asked. This is International Women's Day month at the time of this, right? I didn't get asked to speak on anybody's International Women's Day stage. I could have made that mean all kinds of things. I used to go on tour around Australia. It's a different season for me. It's like, cool. I could be like, why not me? Why this? I'll find a million reasons. My brain will be happy to tell me that I suck and I'm this and I'm that. Or I just go, cool, what else is there for me this month? What other things could I find? And so I think we have to be careful because whatever you look for, you find. And if you're looking for why you haven't made it yet because you suck, the evidence is going to be there, and it's not necessarily true. So I would come back to myself and go, what am I doing in this phase? What's important for me right now? And what do I want? And then be honest with yourself. Like, some people are tripping. I need to do a TED Talk. I should have a book. It's like, baby, you haven't done shit. Why are you going to write a book? Who's going to read your book? No offense. I'm not sure. Like, some of you need to hear this shit. And I say this to my clients and they love me. This is why they work with me, because I have no hair on my tongue. I'm like, listen, I love you. Writing a book is not the thing you need to do right now. Let's do some shit. Let's do some stuff. Let's get your offers. Let's get your money right. Let's get your brand and your position amazing. Then someone's gonna come up to you and go, man, you should write a book because you've told me so much about your life, or you've built— I want you on my podcast. You seeking, put me on, put me on. Like, I don't like that energy. And it's not that I don't like that energy, to be honest. Like, I tried myself to go, I'm gonna put myself on my own stage at my own events. I'm gonna do my own podcast. I'm gonna make my own noise. I'm gonna be so fucking loud. Good luck ignoring me. Cardi B method. Oprah had to talk about Cardi. Oprah did not want to talk about Cardi B's album. Oprah is like Maya Angelou. She doesn't like the N-word. She doesn't like swearing. That is Cardi. But she had to talk about her because she was killing it in the records and she was breaking records and her album did so well that they had to talk about her. Like, that's the shit I want us to do. It's like, be so good that people can't help but ask you, come to you. You attract them because it's who you're being and you're not in this, I'm an empty cup, someone fill me. Because people will come and fill you, but it might not necessarily be the best liquid, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's so important what you just said. I just want to like underline it because there is a big difference. Like when you say, you know, you got to be scrappy at the start, you got to go for it, like you got to do this and you got to do that and you got to really want it. Like what you were saying earlier, sometimes people interpret that as like almost like a desperate energy. Okay, I have to like, I have to like do everything and like ask her to be on our podcast, ask this person to be in my program and like I need to like, yeah, That's actually not what you're saying. It's like you can amplify your message, you can talk about what you're doing, you can— and people can still kind of come to you because you are just absolutely going for it. And like, I don't know, giving free resources, doing free trainings, like whatever it is that you're like putting things out there.

Yeah.

So there's a difference is what I'm hearing between being scrappy starting up and desperate energy. Yes.

Oh my God, that's another episode you got to do. The difference between— yeah, 100%. And what a dance, right? And it's an initiation. How do you know? You get I did it wrong. Oh, that was a bit desperate what I just did there. I've done desperate things before and I'm like, can I delete that message? No, no, no, that wasn't right. Like when we're trying to sell, like we don't know, I don't, I don't, I'm not a salesperson. I like to have genuine real conversations, but there's a game you have to play as well and there's certain things you have to do. And so how do we learn? By doing it totally wrong and going, okay, that sucked. Like I flopped that. Okay, cool. What sucked? This sucked. But sometimes we don't reflect and we just like do it and then we're like, move on to the next thing. It's like, let's learn, let's come back to it. This is why I love like deal with your shit or else it deals with you. Like, come back to your traumatic experiences in therapy. Like, sit with the mistake you made. Why did that client you attract go and sue you or try to get you to VCAT or try to, you know, do a recall or whatever it's called when they try to like dispute funds? Like, why did that happen? Like, you keep attracting those people. They're like, oh, those clients are bitches. It's like, really? Like, if 50 people say that, maybe you have to look at it. One or two, who cares? So I am a fan of going back and looking at what happened almost becoming like Sherlock Holmes. Like, we're at the crime scene. That happened. Ooh, maybe that's where— okay. Just to learn, not to shame yourself, not to blame yourself, but just to learn and zoom out of the situation. 'Cause if you can put it in your pocket for later, that won't happen again. And you're like, aha, okay, cool. So I feel like I didn't know either, and I definitely did desperation things. But for whatever reason, I don't know why, but I really fell in love with the work I was doing and I became obsessed to the point where after we had made like a good amount of money, my husband was like, all right, Wait, lean back. Like calm down, pit bull. 'Cause I'm like, I said to him when he was like, I don't know what you're doing. I, I've talked about it before, but I was like, I'm American. He was like, whoa. I was like, I had to throw out like, I'm American, I'm gonna do this. And he was like, okay, shit. Like I was like, you forgot that I'm an American woman from the hood at Hamish. And he was just like, little like Dandenong, you know, Australia, Melbourne dude. He was like, okay, my bad. Sorry, shit. Like what does that mean? And I was like, I'm about to show you. And that was good. That was hustle. That was Gary Vee. You keep doing that shit, your kids won't see you. You will have a fatty liver. You will like burn out, like your nervous system's fried. You'll be operating from like scarcity and this tightness. So I had to learn, okay, enough, you hustled, let's not hustle anymore. It was very hard to be like, what does not hustling anymore but still being ambitious and going hard and showing up like you want it look like? And that was a very difficult— I'm sure I got that wrong, you know, in that second, third year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what does that look like for you today?

Oh, listening to my husband, Damn you. Just get this clip and send it to me. I know. I say, hey, Mish, I love you. He's my secret weapon. Genuinely. You meet people and you're like, click. He's like the Lego click. It's like, if I didn't have him, I would still— and he's like, give yourself— you would still make it. You would just be dead. I'd be fried crispy. I'd be burned because I fully feel because of all the messed up past, I feel like in all the ways, I wanna say like energetically, but in all the ways I know I'm supposed to be here for something and I know for what. And so I'm like fully in my purpose. And I don't say that to be like, find your purpose. Sometimes you don't find your purpose. Sometimes you live your life and you do things and then you follow that trail and then it finds you later. Or, you know, I don't think everyone finds their purpose. And I don't think everyone's purpose needs to be to impact millions of people. No, that's not everybody's journey. But I feel for me it's very, for me, it's solid. So when I wake up, I'm following. It hasn't changed since I realized. And so I think if I'm not careful and I didn't have someone like Hamish who is fully in the business and he's a shamanic, he's amazing spiritual guy, but very grounded. He's great at the things I'm not great at. And I'm not one of those people that's like, I don't know my numbers. Sorry, my husband does that. I used to be like that. And I'd be like, don't be the cute dumb girl, ladies. Get on your shit. Because if my husband gets sick or my husband when something happened to him or he went away, I can't be like, I don't know. Like, that's not cute. So I love him because I can— like, a little version of him lives in my head. So when my clients ask me things, I'm like, well, the Hamish inside of me wants me to ask you, um, what are your numbers? What are the expenses? What do you mean? Like, I don't know, tell me the expenses. And I would never do that, but I feel like he's helped me to understand that and spoke to me in a way where I started to get it because I felt very stupid again about numbers and accountants. And now I'm I'm like, I don't wanna look after it, but I understand all of it.

Mm-hmm.

And I think as a business owner, that is such a beautiful mantra. I don't wanna look after it, but I wanna know all of it. Like, I wanna know what you're doing. I wanna know what the Facebook ads person's doing. I wanna know everything. And too many women I see, like, we're dropping money on social media people, on ads people, on a marketing person. And I'm like, oh, do you know what they're doing? No, I don't know why it's not working. And I'm like, girl, your, your Instagram bio looks like shit and you're dropping money on a social media Mm-hmm. Okay. Like, no. So I think that that has been really helpful. He's helped me to kind of go slow. Like this year I'm very uncomfortable. My word of the year is structure. When have I ever had a word like that?

So it was like, I would not have put that in your, in your recovery audacity.

It's like next level. Like every exciting like verb you get, like a, like an active word has been. And this year I was like, and I was, it's mine. Like, I'm like, actually I do need some structure. Mm-hmm. And I need to organize so we can fly. And I'm really not happy with the slowness. But Hamish is gonna hear this thing, I'm like, I told you so. But like, he's right. Like, we can't go ham. Every year since 2019, I've been like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Last year I was like, holy shit, I think I'm gonna explode. So it's been nice to kind of be like, whoa, you don't always have to be like killing it every year and going next level. Some years it like, make some money, put your money away. Some years plan things. And so yeah, he's really helped me. And if you don't have someone like, I don't think anyone has someone like Hamish. Like, Hamish is just— he understands me. He doesn't try to change me or make me like him. It's a real beautiful, respectful dance that he has with me, because I am the vision of the business and I need to be who I am. But I don't want to drop— like, once you have more team, you just drive people into crazy. And you know some people like this that have massive businesses and they're a crazy person.

Yeah.

And no one's going, hey, what are you doing? So he helps me with that. Um, but if you don't have that, I think mentorship, hiring amazing mentors that can be your soundboard or your table board of directors. So important because again, you only know what you know, you know.

And what does that look like for you now, putting in the structure in your business this year?

So it looks like basically my husband's like, what we're going to do is we're going to open your brain and we're all just going to move in there and pull things out and just start to operate like operations and frameworks and systems. And you know how you do something, this is how we do this. What, how you think about that. So it's just been like, I feel like people are in my brain and my husband's foot is on the brake, and he got the brake as well because he knows I could just easily kick him. So he's like double brakes and I'm like this on the gas. I'm just like, wait, not yet. Okay, I want to just be like, and go crazy. And he's like, you're going to go crazy soon. So probably till May, we are just ripping everything, like systemizing, hiring people, because content obviously, as you know, is a big thing. And so yeah, it's a lot of heavy brain work. It's exhausting. I hate it so much, but I buy into it because I understand that when you start growing and getting to bigger levels, you don't do it alone. You do it with team. And if you don't organize yourself, then your team's a hot mess. So you're paying people to be a hot mess and they're having fun because you're so exciting, Erica. It's so exciting working with you. But I'm like, but you crazy in the circus and you're meant to be my lion tamer. And so he's like, no, we're not hiring anyone to follow crazy. We need to organize you. So been very boring. I want to do like a tour. I want to go to UK. I want to go crazy. I want to write another book. Like, it's there. And he's just like, wait, don't message anyone about this. And Kady, I'm not good at that. I'm like, I have an idea. I'm going to tell people. He's like, don't tell anybody anything. Shut up.

Yeah.

So it's, it's a weird, it's weird. Yeah. But I, we talk a lot and I, he's a business partner. He's a share, like he's in the business and I do respect what he says. And you know, I think we need to have all those different skills that a lot of couples in business have. And, um, communicating so that you understand where they're coming from and you don't feel like he's not telling me what to do, but I'm also not the boss. Like, we're together doing this. I just happen to be like the talent and the show, but we would be nowhere if it wasn't for Hamish. Like, he's really helped us a lot.

So yeah, yeah, that's a nice—

boring, but yeah, but that's good.

You kind of need to do that sometimes. Like, it's just part of this.

It's so hard.

I can imagine because I'm very— what's your Human Design?

Oh man, I'm a Manifesting Generator 46.

Me too. And I'm— well, I don't know if I'm a 46, but I'm Manifesting Generator. And like, I am like, if I have an idea it has to happen now.

Now. And I'm a Gemini, so I'm like, Gemini, Virgo. And then he's like a projector, and Nina's a projector. And like, yeah, it's nice, like what you need around you, they're great. But I'm just like, yeah, I'm just getting ready.

I would die. But this is like a great opportunity to talk about, I think, because like for so many people, I think they hear all this stuff about like you have to do the mindset work, you have to do this and that, and they're just like, no, Erica, just tell me, like, you've got thousands of followers, like you're making all this money, just give— I don't care about mindset, just give me all the like hacks. I want to have like all the success of the fame and the money. But it's like all the mindset stuff is what actually makes that happen. And I know it sounds like woo and esoteric or whatever, but it's like especially around team, like if you've got unresolved shit, like you're going to project that onto your team, you're going to create all this fucked up dynamics in your, in your ecosystem and your business is going to be just this kind of fucked toxic thing.

Yeah.

Do you have any like tangible examples that you could share, whether it's with team or just growing the business of like a time that you feel like some limiting belief that you had or some, you know, trigger or something unresolved played out in the business.

Yes. So I have— I am like a family because I grew up alone and I grew up in foster homes and my mom was always in hospitals. I kind of was like the only child without a parent, like without family. So I grew up like in the streets, in different homes. And I wasn't the kid that was in the corner depressed because that happens sometimes. They're just like alone. I was like, I'm alone. Do you want to be my sister? I like you. You're really lovely. So everyone would move from from like, I don't know you to BFF, like straight into my circle. I'll be like, move in, let's be together. And so because I'm like that, I'm a community builder. I love people. I talk to strangers. I'm obsessed with people and humans. But when it comes to team, you can't just be like an arm's length employee. Like gross. Like you're gonna come to my house for Christmas. Like where's your family? Like you having a baby? I'm gonna be your doula. Like I'm literally was Nina's doula. Like saw my team member's birth canal. Okay.

That's hilarious.

I know.

Are you actually serious?

No, I'm not joking.

Like I love that.

I was at her birth. Like my husband's like, money. You go all in, spend 28 hours, and you're at the hospital. He's like, I'm sending the driver because you forgot who you are, bitch. Like, you are the queen of confidence and you have like tours and events. And like last year in March, this time it was his birthday yesterday. So like, oh my God, it was not a good idea. But also like, I do believe that your heart and your soul and who you really are inside matters so much more than anything else. So like, I believe karma, I believe whatever, God, universe, whatever you believe in. I think that if you're an asshole person but you appear to— whatever, but you're really an asshole, like something's is gonna come for you. And so I try my hardest to have the boundaries of work. So that's a hard thing for me 'cause I love my team. Like I fall in love with them. I'm like, you're my family. Like I love you. And then my husband has to be the mean person. He has to be 'cause I'm not gonna be mean. 'Cause if I'm mean, I'm really mean. Like we fighting, like let's go girl. You know? Like I'm just like, you're done. You know, like it's very scary. So I'm just like, I'm not gonna be scary alter ego, alter, like my dark alter ego Juanita. So I'm just love.

Love.

So too much love. And then I think when it's too much love, if you're not good at communicating and you're too nice and you're too kind, people can walk all over you. Everyone on my team is autonomous. You could be at the hair salon, I don't give a shit. I don't care. You can work at night, you can work in the morning. There's no like, you have to do this. Meetings are very easy. We do therapy in meetings. People will be crying and we'll be like, all right, inner child, because of what we do. So it's a very loose place to work. It's not L'Oréal, it's not a corporate. But if you don't have boundaries, and if you haven't, haven't like exercised having difficult conversations— like, I love Nina to death and we're like family, but then I'll be like, dude, that sucked. What was that? Like, not good. Like, I don't like that. Like, I've told her things, and if I didn't have communication sorted, then I'd be like, oh no, I can't say that to her because then she's gonna cry. And she could cry. Like, here's a tissue box, have your tears, let's keep talking. Where people are like, oh, she's crying, shit, okay, pull up. Like, that's enough, don't talk anymore. Let— no, leave it, just leave it, push it under the rug. And then that continues, and then you have member who you can't talk to or who cries or who you're people pleasing. We had a client who was $60 million. She made a year, $60 million, and she had her wages. Her wages were like 80% of the business.

80%.

She took home like $50K. You could work at Kmart and get a better— she didn't take any money home. And the people pleasing high school shit that was playing out in her company money because in high school there was bullying. And so she couldn't fire anyone, so she was paying people a lot of money just to be liked. So these kind of things, we have to— that's the personal work. Like, yeah, that's my work. And so I have very uncomfortable, disgustingly awkward conversations. That's like the key. If you're going to work with me, my publicist, I love her, but we'd be having some horrible conversations. I'm like, this is awkward for me, I just have to tell you, I'm just going to get it off, then let's talk about how you feel about it, and then I'll tell you how I feel, and we'll Let's do it, see how we go. So I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm open to the uncomfortableness, the difficultness. I don't have any cards I'm playing. I'm being raw and real. And I feel like if you can get yourself to the place of having difficult conversations, having good eye contact, being open and honest, not holding back. Someone's like, I'm like, what? What was that? And they're like, oh no. I'm like, nah, you're holding back. What's happening? Okay, well, shit, I feel— and I'm like, yeah, let's go there. Like, always go there. Don't make me say what's happening. But people aren't used to that direct communication because they haven't— they don't even know how to do that. I was in therapy when I was 4 years old, so all I feel like I learned at 4 was how to talk. Poor husband of mine, he's like, I'm going to bed, honey. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to talk to myself. I'm going to talk into my voice apps. But I guess that's the benefit that I want to talk. And if I fuck up, I'm the first about, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to say that. And I'm sorry that hurt your feelings because I can give a brace abrasive, not abrasive, uh, maybe it feels abrasive feedback because I'm like, do the thing. Yeah, that, so that was shit. I don't like it. But if we do this, and then it's like, oh, so her and Hamish will be like, damn, when Erica gives feedback, you just like sink into your chair. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you guys, I don't have time. I'm not gonna be like, hey, you look great, that was awesome. The only thing I don't like is this. I'm just like, fix that and that, and then we're good to go next. Because Stephen Barlett, right, you're moving, you got shit to do. But if we're not careful as founders or as the owner of the if you're confident and strong, that can also hurt someone because they might want, hey, you did such a great job. That was awesome. The one thing I would say, what did you think about that? What do you think about that there? Do you think that's— how does that feel to you? As opposed to going, that shit, fix it and then we'll be good. And so I've had to learn to be authentic, be straightforward, be who you are, but also be mindful of how fast, full-on, abrasive, confident you can be. And to someone who wants to make you happy and works for you, and is not there yet where they can match that, that could feel very overwhelming. And so that was kind of feedback I've had to take on. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all personal work. It's like having kids, I'm sorry to say, but isn't it? It's like having kids.

It is. Oh, they show you all your triggers, all your unhealed parts. Like, absolutely. It's the exact same thing.

You care about them.

Yes, exactly. But yeah, it's like— and one thing I think just on the topic of like whether kids or team, but I always thought like something recent for me learning has been like you know, you think you shouldn't react. So like, you know, if you, if you're like a spiritual person or whatever, it's like you don't want to react, you know, you don't want to like lash out or this or that or whatever. But actually sometimes if you like internalize things, that is reacting. It's internally reacting, you know what I mean? Like it's still— so it's not about not speaking up, it's about like speaking up from a place of like without anger and without this and that. And sounds like exactly what you're doing. You're like just being very direct, but you're not like you're not like angry with them, or you're not like— you're just— you might be intense about it. Or like, I can be intense as well, but I'd almost prefer to say to someone, look, this is just what I'm like, so don't like take any notice of me, but I will be like this.

Yes.

And just having that like upfront, it's the best.

You give yourself permission. And like, I used to do that on stage. I'd get up and I'd be like, all right, so I talk really fast when I get nervous. So if I start speaking Spanish, and then people just start laughing, and I'm like, just wave at me. Like, I'm gonna talk fast because I'm nervous. I'm just letting you know. And if you can't understand me, just give me a wave. And so like, I gave them permission but also like made fun of myself, but also was like unapologetic. And then it kind of cleared me. I was like, okay. And then it never happened, but it was like, let me just pull out what's in my subconscious so that you guys know that I'm a crazy person that talks fast. Or, you know, and look, I will say we have to learn. I think Gary Vee talked about this. Like, he used to be very candid, very like, I'll podcast with you. Yeah, sure, sure. And then all these people started asking him to podcast and And he was like, look, I can't say yes to everyone. Like, I used to be like, yeah, sure. But like, email me after you have 100 episodes and if I can, I'll give you 10 minutes, I'll give you 15 minutes. And I think we have to change. It would be silly to go, this is how I am and my team has to just do it. 'Cause then it's like working for someone who doesn't wanna mold or shift. And I think you learn about the kind of leader you are when people work for you and you can have those conversations where like, I'm a verbal processor. Clearly. So it's like, and then Nina's just like, fuck, does she want me to do any of this? And my husband's watching and he's like, yes, we're just— sorry, are you, are you just, are you just, is this like, do you want me to take notes or I don't understand? And then I'm just like, we could do this, we could, and I'm a what if. So then I'm like, and then all these ideas. And then my husband's like, honey, honey, honey, stop. He's like, Nina, just cover your ears. He's like, babe, me and you could talk. So me and my husband now ideate together because he knows how to handle like what I'm trying to say. And then he's like, like, yep, cool. So here's what we're gonna do.

But—

and I'm like, yeah, I like that. And then this is what we'll do here. Now we bring this to Nina. So it had to— it helped me when I had— like, you get in trouble when you have team because you can't just pull an idea out of your ass and go live because it affects everyone. Like, it affects your VA, it affects your— oh, sorry, last minute. And it's like, nobody wants to work on that kind of way, you know? And so— and then I thought about the vision for the company. I was like, we have a company. Like, you have a like, we have a company, like, shit, we got like merch and stuff and things. And I'm like, oh my God, people work here. Like, people get paid and pay their home and their children on the wage that we make and like the payments we pay them by the impact we make out in the world. Like, whoa. When you— like, I have those moments all the time still of like, holy shit, like, this is big. Like, this can be even bigger and there's going to be even more people. And so it makes you not be so reactive and crazy. One of my friends is a massive coach in business, and the shit that happens there is crazy. I watch it, I'm like, what are you doing? You have so many people, you can't be acting like it's just you anymore. It's like, oh, yeah, I have. And if the people aren't brave enough to say, hey, babe, you're a psycho, what are you trying to do? Let's get you out of WhatsApp or get you out of the sauna channel. No, we're not doing that. Your team might not be brave enough to say that to you. And so you think you're running this big-ass business, and then things are breaking everywhere. So this is our slow year. It sucks, but hopefully only 6 months of the year. And if we need longer, then it means we need longer. And I just think it's kind of like the arrow, like you're pulling back, pulling back, and you feel like you're not doing anything. But if you pull back hard enough and you hold the tension, when you do throw it, it's like you're going to get bullseye, like right where you want to go, far ahead. So we're like pulling back to go far.

Yeah.

Which is what I'm telling myself.

Yeah. Hope you have to hold on to those things.

Yes.

But how like, so if someone's listening and they're growing a team and things like that, like, what is— what have you found is like the critical things to hold on to still? Yeah. Because you hear so much about people saying like, oh, you need to like, you know, don't plan content out 2 weeks in advance. It's not authentic. Then like post what you're feeling in the moment. Like all these different things.

Yeah.

What, what are you mindful of now with having a big team to keep you like in the moment and on the pulse and like doing things because you feel like it and it's— you're following your intuition versus like manifesting, you know? Yeah. Versus just everything being so planned out and then you maybe start feeling disconnected. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like you meal prep and you're like, I don't want to eat any of this.

That is literally my top 100%.

Yeah, but like, of course you're like, that's gross. I made that like 2 days ago. Who was it?

2 hours ago. I don't even want it then.

No. So our team is not big. It's small and I want to keep small. So I would like to grow a team that everything is in-house. I hate to be a number in an agency and no, no shame to any agencies out there. Do you work on that? Work on people not feeling like a number, please, because I don't like the idea. I want you in my house. I want your marketing here. I want the copywriter here. I want you here with us ideating and getting better under us. So I do want to have more people on the team. And I think one of the biggest things for us was the kind of person I am. So you have to know who you are and your team has to know who you are. My husband would never do anything that I do. He is a Substack, if anything, possibly an audio podcast that probably comes out every 3 weeks, you know, and when he's stationary, not in a car moving. And very legitimized ideas and things like that where no off-script shit. Like, that would be him. He would never— he doesn't show up on stories. I don't even know why he has Instagram, right? Like, so the kind of creator he is, probably easier to work with, uh, in regards to creative ideas. You could be more creative, but I am a problem. And maybe you're like this too, where I'm in the toilet and I'm like, bing, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm in— I'm like, we're changing everything. Like, I have an idea. So they know that I'm that way, and so we have gaps where I can I can just do what I want to do. Like, I want to share a photo of us today. That's not on a plan, but we going to do that. And so I think that when, if I can talk about content for a second, because I do think this helped us a lot with content and we're currently ideating on this right now. I feel like as creators, we don't think about where we are. So where are we now? We're in the month of March. March is International Women's Day. For some people listening, you're launching something this month. For some people listening, you have an event in 3 months and you want to sell tickets. When do you sell those tickets? The month of the event, you sell that shit. Now you start seeding, shouting, whispering, teasing, whatever, talking about this now. And so as a company, we have a big plan, like a big calendar for the whole year, and everybody knows what's happening. And then each month we're like, what are we theming? What are we focused on? What do we want to move? What are we selling? We're not selling everything every single month, you know. And so we have a plan that we make as founders, and then we bring the team in and we're like, hey, this is what we're looking at. So then we ideate on ideas around February. We talked a lot about personal brand, specifically X Factor. right? And so we wanted to do a masterclass. And so everything that we talked about was about driving and educating people on that. And so me and Nina were in agreeance with the content we were creating, the podcast. And then Bad Bunny was coming to Australia. Hey. And so I'm like, perfect. Bad Bunny has a personal brand, X Factor. Let's do like— and then I got like media articles that matched Bad Bunny, Erika, Australia. Like it was perfect. So it was a business thing, but also worked for me as a person because I'm Puerto Rican and I love Bad Bunny. And then it worked because a personal brand and then it sold sold tickets. So we kind of create this campaign or this world where what we're focused on lives and we know. So Nina never is like, what are we talking about? I'm never like, do I post about podcasting, you know, in the personal brand month? No. But if I feel like I want to talk about podcasting, I will do that shit. Like, I will create something for podcasting. But now, because we're getting bigger and more streamlined, I won't publish it. My husband will go, when are we talking about podcasting? And I'm like, I want to talk about it now. And he's like, cool, we're not doing that crazy person. Like, we're doing this. So if you have extra good, drop extra. But we are really streamlining like where we're going because we want people to know this is what we're talking about, therefore this is what you purchase, therefore this is the next step, therefore here's the client journey, therefore boom. So we've been trying to do that and it's been really awesome because I feel like I'm talking and ideating and creating ideas, and then the team that's making is like, oh my God, this is amazing, this is all of your stuff regarding this topic. And too many of us are outsourcing social media to creators. Are they an expert in business? No. Does Nina know anything about personal brand? Only the shit I say. So how can I expect my social media person to create thought leadership content around social media or around personal branding when she herself hasn't? Unless the person you're hiring has a million-dollar business in the thing you're doing, they can't talk for you. So all of this stuff doesn't get outsourced. It comes from you. And so then you're co-creating, which works really well for us. Like, we love co-creating with people, and then people have clarity. So I I think if you're hiring a team, do not expect them to be entrepreneurs. Do not expect them to think the way you think. You're where you are because you think that way. They are not. And maybe they never want to be. Like, Nina doesn't want to be a superstar. She doesn't want to own and run a global business. She's super happy supporting what we're doing and having the freedom to be with her baby and her partner and traveling. So I know that there's things that I understand and I know that she doesn't know. So I have kind of meet her where she is and then put the steps down so that she can become and learn about the things that we need instead of like expecting her to know. And I think business owners, when they hire people, like, you should know, as if they're not gonna know that. It's you have to get better at explaining the steps like you're talking to a 7-year-old. And I think as moms we do that really well. So it's like, do that for your team, you know? And yeah, and then leave gaps. Like, I want to do my own thing, so I just check the calendar. I'm like, cool, I can talk about this, I want to do that. But she knows, like, you're going to be on Anita's, you're going to be doing this here, you're going to be doing that. Like, we have timely, and then we have like baseline. Baseline's like evergreen, the shit you talk about, your content pillars, your core authority. And then we have timely. Bad Bunny was timely. I'm still going to talk about Bad Bunny after, but it was very timely. And so the media we got was timely, everything was timely, and then we kind of wrapped ourselves with him and that, which worked for us, you know? Yeah. So I think that knowing that and knowing who you are as a creator and the kind of person you are helps the team so they can work and dance around around you.

Yeah, because I mean, you've had like millions of downloads in your podcast, you have over 150,000 followers on social media. Like, what is your content workflow like? Because you mentioned it's kind of themed, but then you've also got evergreen. Like, yeah, do you, do you just sit down and assign it like a time to do it each week? Like, how do you think about it? Because for me at the moment, I'm noticing that like posts that are performing really well have like nothing got to do with my business. Like, it's like lifestyle, your personal brand, baby. Like, I talk about my relationships. But I, right now, I'm giving myself permission because I come from a background of like marketing strategy. Yeah, I'm like, I just want to talk about what I fucking want to talk about. And I just like— and I'm just like, each week I'm like, what do I want to talk about and what am I inspired by? And that's actually the stuff that's getting really good engagement. Like, whether that's strategic or not, maybe it's not, but it's just I'm following my passion at the moment.

Yeah.

How do you think about that?

I think that's very important, and I would look at about as like the person. Like, so that's you, you the mother, you the— like, I was making clothes. I don't make clothes. Like, I might make my own sequin suits soon. I was like making a bra like with gemstones, and I was like, what a waste of my time. But I was like, no, this is good for arts and crafts. It's good for your nervous system. Like, it was like, we're doing it for the concert. So I don't make anything. So I was doing videos about like my outfits that I was making. An outfit— am I an outfit person? Am I a makeup artist? No. Like, I don't want to teach that, but it's part of what I care about. And so if you want to follow me, I'm I'm gonna share the things that I care about and the people that I serve. So like I will talk about the same things I talk about still, but I try to, no, I don't try to, I weave myself in naturally because you kind of can't weave you, your mother, your relationship, what you're into. If you're watching something on Netflix and you're like, I wanna talk about, like saw all these people talking about maths and I was of course like hide post, gonna give a shit about maths. But if you talk about maths or you watch it, then that's interesting, right? So it's like, this is what I think that happened, right? So I feel like we need to be less strategic and more ourselves. And then obviously if you can match things together. So we're always looking for where does this commercially sit? So with Bad Bunny, I was talking about it, I was always gonna share about it, but I was like, wait a minute, he's got a personal brand. And then I'm researching and then Forbes is like, he has a $435 million identity brand. Then I'm like, oh, identity brand, holy shit. And it was right before we were about to do our masterclass. So I changed like all my slides 'cause they weren't Bad Bunny. And I'm like, this is a perfect case study. And so many people in Australia were like, I don't even know who he is. So they learned from the masterclass. Yeah. But then from me doing that, I was like, hold on, publicist, hold on a minute. Listen, I talk about personal brand. These are the 3 things I think we should send this to Forbes and talk. So then I was like able to utilize something I personally love that just happened to work with my business and what I teach anyway.

Yeah.

That was like triple win.

Okay. But I love that.

Usually it doesn't work like that. Usually my husband's painting my wall pink and it's funny and we video it and they're like, oh, Hey, Mish didn't want to do that and squeaky fucking roller. And it was funny and it was just like personal brand. And then we'll talk about whatever else I want to talk about. So I, I always mix it in and I think it's the Gemini in me. I think I'm like, I get bored. I don't want to be like, I'm only talking this month about content. Yeah. Like, I literally had the conversation 2 days ago. I was like, I'm not teaching people how to make reels. I'm not doing that shit. So it's like, we have to zoom out. We got to talk about something else. It's too close and I don't want to do that. And I want to do that on my podcast. Podcast. Like, my podcast is whatever the hell I want it to be. And it could be like your podcast, if you have a podcast, it should be whatever the hell you want. That's the one rule you can follow, is like, you can do solo, you can do guest, you can do whatever the hell you want. You can do series. And so I think social media is like that too. And we've been listening to too many people that are like, you have to do this hook and you have to whatever. I think the best thing is you be you. Are you having fun with it? Does it feel connected to you? And then shit, if you're not making money, try to sprinkle in your business and remember like, oh, can I attach this to something? Where can we attach this to a CTA or email list or whatever? But we're not always like CTA, CTA, because that's exhausting as well, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's so interesting because I think a very highly underrated skill is just building a business you don't grow to resent.

Yes.

And you know, if you are only thinking about the strategy for your business and for your podcast, but then you fucking hate it and you close it down anyway, that's sucks. Like, what's the point?

There are too many people that happens to. And then, and then we like— it's not fun. And I have clients that are like, I hate, I hate social media, I hate content. And I'm like, what are you doing?

Let's—

what are you doing? Like, who told you you had to do that shit? Like, just know, like, sometimes I have a lady that I— she's not my client, but I coached inside of a program, and she's like, listen, I'm full, I'm busy, I'm a designer and I'm busy, I can't take clients anyway. She's very like cynical. Is that what that is? Like real like, I hate this, I hate social, I hate algorithm, I'm dancing on TikTok. She was older as well, which I loved. And I was like, this character, we need a TV show, girl. I was like, if you showed up like, listen, I'm busy, I can't take more clients anyway, I hate this shit, and just were like the grumpy lady, I would follow you. And everyone in the chat was like, oh my God, that would go off. And then she started to smile and she was like, wait, so I can show up like that? I'm like, hell yeah, you have nothing to sell, you're busy as hell, you're funny, like you're negative and cynical, like people need that, like go after that, like turn that up really loud. Because no one would tell her, like everyone was like, you can't show up like that, you need to do this. So she felt like, I need to, I have to, I should. Again, what we talked about before, that sucks. Like, who are you being? That's not who you are. So just show up as you are. Like, hey guys, algorithm says this bullshit, whatever. And yeah, you can look at your analytics, and if no one liked it and nobody commented, you can learn from that.

Cool.

But does it mean you have to shape-shift every single time? Like, no. Maybe that's not the right platform for you. Maybe you don't need to be on Instagram. Maybe you need to be on LinkedIn and you're not on LinkedIn, and being on Instagram every day ruins your brand because you don't know how to do it. So maybe you need to go back to LinkedIn and just kill it there. Like, I think we need to allow ourselves to be who we are, to showcase what we want. It has to be fun for you, or else it's like you might as well go work at a job you hate that pays you a shitload of money.

Exactly.

At least you don't got to worry about the tax of the job and the other things, the building cost, you know, just check in, check out, like if that's what it is. And it's meant to be fun, like we're meant to show who we are.

Yeah.

And people will hate you, and some people will be obsessed with you, and they're both right, and who cares, you know? Like the more you do it, the more you'll learn, like, I actually don't need to perform for anyone. Block your family if you have to. Like, all the things that come up when people say this, I'm like, block your family, do what you got to do, don't read the comments if they piss you off. Like, just show up as who you are. And the more you do that, the more you will attract the people that want you and that need you. Because there's people for you only.

Yeah.

And then there's people only for me, and that's cool. But if we never show up, then we're not going to attract them and we won't find them.

Exactly. I think it's like, I just talked about this recently, where it's like, step one is just training your nervous system that you did it and you didn't die.

Yes.

And then you can start improving.

And then get better. Exactly. Suck for a long— my husband, my son wants to be like the best soccer player in the world. And I'm like, hey baby, you're going to suck. And he's like, no, I just told you I want to be the best. I'm like, cool. If you're going to be the best, that means you're going to mess up a lot. You're going to miss kicks, you're going to suck, you're going to fall down, you're going to fail. You're going to suck, you're going to make mistakes, and then you're going to learn and be better than everyone who's never sucked. And then you're going to be the best. And he's just like, wait, how does this work, this little pyramid? And I was like, sucking, sucking less, being the best.

And he's just like, okay.

So I've told him that since he was little. Middle.

Yeah.

So he knows when he misses something, he's like, it's all right, I learned. What did you learn? He's like, I don't lose, I learn. I'm like, I like that. You don't lose, I learn, right? And so that's true for everyone. Like, you want to be the best, you have to— like, I've sucked so much speaking that now I know how to speak really well, and I'm not worried about messing up. But it's because I sucked so bad. Yeah, I was the worst.

But it's just like, it's funny when you hear it, it's just like, it makes so much sense. It's like so obvious, but we get so caught up on this. What age are your kids?

Uh, 10 and 8.

And so, because like, I know you mentioned you have people working at home. Yeah, right.

Yes.

So like, is it just this because like, I remember at one point, like, with my kids, I just felt like we just live because my husband was like, we're both running businesses, got 2 kids running around. I was like, this is some sort of fucked up like WeWork slash crash. Like, what's like, what is our living environment? Like, how does it work? Do you enjoy that like kind of blend?

I really, I really, I struggle with— I'm very normal and we're normal, but we're not normal. And I really struggle with school. Like, I struggle that they go to a normal school with people. Yeah. Like right now I'm like, yeah, they do school. And I'm like, I don't know about this. Like not to get conspiracy, but I was like, I don't know about any of this. I don't know. They're like, what high school is gonna go to? I'm like, we ain't talking about high school. We might not even be in this country. Like what? High school tour bus. They're gonna be on the tour bus. They're gonna be online. They're gonna be seeing homeless people in LA. They're gonna be in Puerto Rico. They're gonna be chasing chickens. They're gonna be, I don't want them to do normal. And so one of our, well, my goal, and we've talked about it with my husband, is like, how do we get them them out, but still give them— my kids are very social. They will talk you up. They love people. They're very— I'm not worried about them not being social, but like, I'm not going to homeschool them. Like, I'm not going to do that. So I'm like, we need to have like— we want to develop something where they can— so on school holidays, they'll do like 9 till 11:30, and they know they got to do what they got to do. We're working and they're in the house, and then we all have lunch, and then I'm like, all right, you can play your game, or you can go outside, or you can do this, and we have a break. So when school holidays happen, we're still working in our business. Of course, we're not taking school holidays off always, So I feel like we could do this. I feel like I'm like, I don't know about school. I don't know about the stuff that school teaches. I don't know about the, the person you have to become as a child in school. And I know that schools are built to make employees. Like, we know this. So I'm like, I don't know. I don't know that they're— I mean, maybe Steiner School, maybe Montessori is a little bit more like, you be who you are. But imagine the school was like, oh, you're a projector? Cool. Oh, you are this person? Great, let me give you that. Like, they don't do that. And so I don't I don't know if that will still be our— I don't think that'll be our route, but we'll find something that they can still flourish. Yeah. Um, but yeah, for us right now, it's like the kids are home, they have their little tasks they have to do, and then we're working, and then we'll come together and then we chill. So we're not like hardcore about it, but they know we have a business. My kids are in the business.

What do they know? How are they in the business?

Oh, if there's something I have to update, I'm like, come here, you're gonna sit down and you're gonna— and my son's like, I was on CapCut at school. And I'm like, great. So they're like— I'm like, you're gonna work for me. So when he's 12, because at 12 years old you can hire your child and pay $18,000 a year you can pay them in Australia. In America, when they're babies— wow, Jay-Z's baby was like, "Gah, gah, gah," and like made $10 million. So I'm like, "Oh, Australia doesn't let you do that." But my kid will work for us. Like, I'm like, "You guys will be in our business." And then when we have events, they welcome the women, they check them in, they'll introduce me on stage, like, just to build their confidence. They're scared, but I'm like, "Come on, you got this.

Like, it's all good." I love that.

So slowly, you know, trying to teach them which is, I think, is really nice. And my office is now at home. So we took our big garage and turned it into like a studio. And so I'm there. So then I'm cooking and then I'm here and they're in there. And so, yeah, I think it's a good— I think they learn so much more with us and what we're doing in the world and the world changing. AI, all the things happening. Like, I don't know if it's useful as it was, what it used to be, the traditional BS, you know?

Yeah. Well, Dan Martell and his wife just brought their kids on a big world trip and they brought an educator with them. Them. Yeah, to do the homeschool. Yeah, it doesn't have to be you that does it, I guess. But what would you go back and tell Erica with the 2-year-old that, like, you know, she was crying in a corner and everything was really hard? Like, looking at, like, where you got to in your motherhood journey now, what would you tell her? Are there any lessons? Is there anything you want her to know? Yeah. Um, yeah, what would you say?

I can see myself, I just— I would just hug her and high-five her and just be like, you're amazing, you're doing this shit, it's happening for you. All of the stuff, more than you can imagine. Like, you're doing it. Like, keep going with what you are. Because I don't think she needed to do anything else. Like, she was— she did so much. I think she needed a hug and she needed, like, encouragement. And until Hamish could give it to me, I didn't have it. And I think because of my traumatic childhood, I didn't have it. So I was okay not to have it, but it sucks not to have it, you know? So, like, if we can— if we can give ourselves encouragement of, like, you are doing amazing, you're amazing, like, this is all gonna work, all these hard nights and, you know, breastfeeding, and then you don't sleep. And my husband was at work, he had had a gym that was bombing. The gym wasn't doing well, and he'd leave at 5 AM and he would come home at 9 PM. I would be so pissed off. I just, you know, you'd be like, take this child. I wouldn't even say hi to him. I would just be like, I can't anymore. And trying to put a toddler to sleep with a newborn baby in a carrier, and the baby's all falling, and the toddler's like, ah, and you're like, shut up, you're gonna wake the baby that's on me, and then I'm gonna lose my shit at everyone. So I'm sure I was very reactive many times, um, but I just think what a like, I wish part of what she had, that naivety that we have at the beginning where you don't know what's to lose because you don't have anything to look at. After some wins that we've gotten becomes like harder. Like, I've had moments where I'm like, what am I doing? Am I doing— I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know who I am. Where old Erica should have been like, bitch, get your ass up, let's go. We just work it out as we do it. Like, I missed that part of that, that version of me. And I heard other entrepreneurs say that, like, I wish I had the naivety. Now we know what to lose, what's on the loss. Now we have this pressure. Now we're like, I know how to sell on a webinar, so make sure I sell. It's like, when you didn't know, you just showed up and give a shit. You're like, buy or don't, I don't care. You suck if you don't buy. Like, you know?

Yeah.

So I think encouragement and a big hug, because she was a monster. She was a monster, man.

Oh my goodness, I love that. I feel like I needed to hear that. I've got like a 3 and a 1 and a bit year old, and I'm like, wow, you're amazing.

Doing it. It's working. Everything you're doing is working. It's amazing. And you'll go back and be like, wow. And your kids will know. Your kids will know when they get older. They'll be like, mom, holy shit. It's such a beautiful— you don't even have to say anything to them. Just being who you are and they watch you. Alicia's kids, they're going to be like, oh my God, we know the business and we've seen it at the dinner table. We've seen it. It's such a beautiful thing because you don't tell them what they should do. You just are it and they see that and then they take that on. So you're doing so much for them by just being who you And there's so much guilt about being a working mom.

And it's like, what an amazing, like, experience and opportunity you're giving your child to see someone chase their dreams like that and to be around that energy. Like, that's incredible.

And to be nervous. Like, I had a— this didn't happen, but I got invited to the Live Nation, like, corporate box, and I was going to interview, possibly interview Bad Bunny, some other guy from Live Nation. Like, it's still— the other guy might happen, but, you know, I was like nervous. Like, I was like, oh my God, the fact that I'm so close. Like, it was ridiculous. I was like— and I was in the kitchen, I was like, oh my God. And I was crying, and my kids were like, what's wrong, Mommy? And I was like, I'm so nervous. And they're like, Mommy, okay, get your phone. And I was like, what? And he's like, I'm going to play a video so when you go to Sydney you could play this video. Mommy, you got this. They're going to love you, Mommy. Everybody loves you. My son, my 8-year-old, he was— I was crying, and he's like, you got this, Mommy. They're going to— Bad Bunny's going to love you. Like, everybody loves my mommy. And like, just adorable. And I was just like, who the hell did they learn this encouragement from. Hello from us. Like, and it was awesome to— I watched those videos when I went and I was like, oh my God, look at my kids. Like, they just, they just see you and they know that they can go after things and they know they can do hard things and they know you're scared and you show up anyway. Like, you fail and you go anyway. Like, that's just— I think it's incredible. So yeah, I'm really grateful that we get to do it and see what we can. I'm still working it. I'm like, how do we do this? How do we travel? Because like the 30 days in the US was amazing with them and they were real good, like, road kids. They were awesome. They were like, all right, 6:00 AM, let's go. Like, they weren't complaining. So I was like, oh, you guys, I could take you with me. Like, we could do this. So now the goal is like, how do I come to an event to speak and bring Hamish and bring, you know, a nanny or someone that we trust to be with them? How do we bring them with us? Because you do— when you get what you want, which is a lot of the women I speak to are like, I want to speak, I want to tour, I want to do this. Okay, cool, here's all this speaking all over the country, you're never home. And then you have to say bye to your kids and you feel like shit. Like, after a while, you're like, Mommy's going to be gone on these days in the calendar. And they're like, you're going again? And you're like, fuck. Like, that actually sucks. So you get what you want, but other things—

but it sucks. Yeah.

Like, you're like, oh shit. So being able to take them with us now, like, that's something that we're wanting to do because now it's like, all right, let's go together and they can see and learn what happens. And so it costs a lot of money to do that as well, you know. So yeah, always, always growing with this and trying to wrap them into the crazy that we, that we've built.

Yeah, I love that though. And yeah, I just love your whole story. Thank you so much for everything you shared. As I said at the beginning, you're just like the real deal, and I love that you share so vulnerably all the good, bad, the ugly. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I can't wait to see what unfolds for you. And I've got like lots of mom inspo now. I'm going to have my kids working in business.

Get on that landing page, Kajabi. We don't need a Maybe I just give them an internship though.

I don't know about paying them.

Yeah, exactly. You're like 18 to us.

There you go. No, thank you.

No, you're amazing. Thank you. So then we met and I like love at first sight. I was like, oh my God, I love you.

Yeah, it was so good. I can't wait to connect again tonight. So thank you so much for giving up your time and sharing all this incredible wisdom. It's been amazing.

Thank you, gorgeous.