Why Most Businesses Get STUCK at $3M (And How to Break Through)

There's a breakpoint that happens around $3 million of annual revenue where the business owner has just kind of jerry-rigged all of these team members and all of these processes and can't quite get past it because they don't change the level of expectations they have for themselves as a leader, and therefore can't lead other people across their marketing, sales, finance, ops functions to raise to the next level.

Natalie, welcome to the Earn Your Happy podcast.

I'm so excited to have you on the show.

This is such a dream. I've listened to your podcast for years and years, and I'm so thrilled to be on.

Well, this is a mutual dream, so I'm so excited to have you, um, on the show. I know that you and I have gotten to cross paths, but way too briefly. I just saw you at Nobu, and we, you know, we were kind of in passing and said hello, and then we got sat right next to each other. I was celebrating my brother's birthday. I think you guys, um, your husband was just off the plane from somewhere that he flew all night. I was like, they were trying to have a romantic date, they get sat next to our birthday party. Was a thing. It was great.

It was great. You guys were laughing a lot more than we were. I was like, dude, you gotta pick it up. Let's drink some caffeine.

Let's stay awake through dinner. Oh my God, Chris and I have had so many times like that where There's something about one of us when we haven't seen each other, like, we're like, let's just go to dinner, let's drop in, let's try to, you know, reconnect. But that other person who was traveling is typically so tired, they're just a zombie. But it's still— it's at least company, you know?

It's definitely company. But you guys were laughing and having a ball, and I loved that. We appreciated your energy because it, it, it's— it came over the table.

Great. The nice thing is, like, I literally was like, okay, what, you know, because It's our family too. We talk about literally everything. And I'm like, what are they gonna hear? Oh, well, they're pretty cool. They'll be just fine.

We didn't hear a word. All we heard was laughing. So no family secrets were shared. And even if they were, they'd be safe.

But they weren't shared.

We didn't hear a word.

There definitely were some. So that's great.

Dang it. I missed some tea.

I know.

I know.

Well, that's why we have to go to— we have to go actually eat at the same table sometimes. There we go. Okay, you have just been everywhere. You have been all over. Um, you are a part of a company, you're a co-founder of Cardone Ventures, which is a whole lot of people all of the time. I feel like between, um, working with a ton of people, between the events, between, uh, the trainings that you do, all of the things with leadership that you do, I feel like I see you all of the time in front of large audiences of people. Mostly men, a lot of men, it's starting to become a lot more women. But I know, you know, even, let's just say a couple of years ago, or a few years ago, like a very male-dominated space that you're in all of the time. And you're a very feminine, beautiful, amazing, powerful woman. I kind of want to go back to the place right before you started in what you're doing now, if you could explain what you're doing. Um, and I just want to talk to kind of where you were at emotionally there, but why don't you first start by telling us what it is that you do?

Yes. So I, as you mentioned, I'm the co-founder of a company called Cardone Ventures. So my husband, who I've now been with for over a decade, sold his business. He's very successful. He is one of the most brilliant business minds. And in 2016, we'd been together for a few years and he had sold his business for 77 times earnings. And it was the most incredible experience for me being very young, watching this person achieve every goal that they had ever had, and a month later not feeling satisfied from that and having doubt creep in. And, you know, I had to overcome a lot of challenges that I told myself with my story of like, I just happened to fall in love with this guy who was twice my age. But at the time I was top of my class in high school. I had a academic scholarship to school or to college, went to London School of Economics. I thought I was just gonna be like this take-no-prisoners woman who never gets married and like screw men. And, and that really was my identity until I, I actually fell in love with somebody who was twice my age. And I think it's because I judged myself for so long.

Mm-hmm.

And then he had this really successful event happen that just changed his financial condition very quickly. And when I watched this happen, The reason we were in love to begin with was we were building and we were in business together. And so that thing went away because the business wasn't what it was. When you sell your business, you know, it's, it's not the same early morning meetings and strict schedule. That's just, things change. And so for about a year and a half, he and I went through this like tornado of, does he wanna do this again and start from scratch?

Mm-hmm.

And do I have what it takes? I'm 25 years old. No one's going to think that I'm smart anyway because I'm dating and now married to somebody who's so much older and has this business experience. So I kind of went through this like, why should I try? Because I've already discredited myself with this choice. And I finally like got off my own, you know, sad soapbox and decided that we were going to look at all of these different social media influencers, because I thought that we could give business guidance, consulting, management services to small business owners to fulfill what Brandon's vision has always been. That's my husband, Brandon, which his previous business sold in the audiology and the dental spaces. So it was impacting small business owners in very specific industries. But what you find when you go from an audiologist to a dentist is the There's a lot of common practices between communication and leadership and structure and, and marketing and operations that even though the business is different, the core elements of businesses doesn't change.

Mm-hmm.

And so he wanted to go down the private equity route. I was like, wait, let's look at social media influencers and see if we could partner with them. Neither one of us had any sort of social following. And I put together a list of 25 social media influencers who were big at the time. This was in 2018. And I put together this list and just started checking people off saying, no, this doesn't fit, or this person's values are not aligned with ours. And I pulled up a Grant Cardone video and saw him with his money gun, with his hat turned sideways and this big jet. And I was like, cross off the list. Absolutely not. No way. This is not the guy. But then luckily, you know, the YouTube gods retargeted me with Elena's content. And I watched this video of Elena talking about being a strong woman while being married and what support really does look like and how backwards most people have this idea of marriage. And like, I remember bawling watching this video. And so I saw Grant through a new lens and I told my husband, hey, why don't we move forward with instead of this private equity route, like let's do the social media route. And he was, you know, crotchety about it. He's like, I don't know, I don't think this is a good idea. This is, I'm a traditional businessman. Uh, but you know, we decided to move forward with going to a growth conference, which is a big event that Grant hosts every single year. And that particular event had 35,000 people in the room. And we were really looking to see, are these people who are online, who we social media stalk, actually real? Like, is— are the kids real? Is the marriage real? Is this movement real? Are there real business owners, or are there people who just think this 10x thing is cool who are in the audience? And we walked into that room and it felt like for the very first time we were at home.

Mm-hmm.

There were just like, All of our people who were not satisfied with what they had created wanted to do more, were looking for the fast track, understanding marketing and sales. And we were just blown away by that event. And so we went to Grant afterwards and said, we'd like to be your business partners. You do sales and marketing in real estate, and we do all the other pieces of scaling businesses. And your audience is the perfect fit for what our expertise is. And we started this business in 2019, a handful of months after Growth Conference, and it's been Almost 6 and a half years now, uh, and it's just been a roller coaster ever since. Wow.

Okay. So at that point, who were you? How were you feeling like personally? Where were you? Meaning like, where were you personal development-wise? How did you view yourself at that time?

I viewed myself as somebody who might have what it takes, but didn't actually have what it took at the time. And I made a lot of excuses for where I was at. in life, and I didn't view myself as somebody who was really willing to go all in. I wasn't the early riser, the late, uh, you know, emailer. I was just kind of— I was like tempted by this cozy, comfortable life because the guy I was dating was wealthy. But I was really smart and I had always worked hard, but I had this, you know, year and a half period where like, well, maybe I should just phone it in and maybe I'm gonna retire and I'm just gonna be a trophy wife. Like, that was literally what I thought. For— which is so insane because I'm very naturally smart and I actually work very hard. But at the time, like, I had gotten myself to a place where I was so concerned about what other people were going to think about me and that I would put all this work in, they would judge me anyway. So it was kind of the mindset of why try and why go through all of this hardship just to, on the other side, feel the way that I feel right now.

Okay, so for anybody listening who's like, oh God, that must be nice, what I want you to understand Is that Natalie, you may have had to push harder than some people who are in a tough situation because the decision that you had to make between super cush life, which no one was telling you you needed to do this, nobody was telling you that you needed to work as hard as I know that you work now in what you do now and who you are now to become the leader that you've become. None of that was easy. That was a choice that you had to make despite having the choice that you're just fine not doing it. I will tell everybody listening that sometimes the hardest choice for me, now that I've had the businesses and made the money and have residual income, the hardest choice for me sometimes is getting up and working again and creating again and finding that drive and finding that inner fire. Because I do think that there's a lot of grit and a lot of fire that you get when you are in a tough spot. So how did you find like that tenacity and that like grit and fire to become the person that you are now? Because you probably had a lot of opportunities that felt insanely scary and that you weren't ready for yet.

Oh my gosh, like all of the above. And yes, it's, it's this interesting paradox where when you actually are in proximity to having whatever you think you want, right? Because people want to win the lottery and you're like, oh, that would be so great to win the lottery. Okay, you win the lottery. Now what? Like, what is your life about? What do you do every day that makes you proud of yourself? What is the impact that you've been able to create? I used to have this list of all of these things that I just like, I wanted in life. And I've always liked looking at other people and saying, oh my gosh, it's so cool that she's doing that or that this person has that. But for me back then, I hadn't created a life where I would have earned those things, but I still wanted them.

Mm-hmm.

And as much as it sounded nice, And really was a real option for me to just have the things but not put the work in. I felt so empty in those moments of meeting other successful people and having them ask me, oh, what do you do? Mm-hmm. And I was like, well, I'm valuable and I'm smart, but you wouldn't know that cuz I don't have, I don't have the receipts. I haven't done the work. I haven't really become who I need to become to demonstrate The competency that I know I'm, I'm capable of having and the potential that I see in myself. And so it really was those moments where I would be meeting people for the very first time. And Brandon has this incredible story, and I'm so inspired by my husband, and I, I believe, like, I'm his biggest cheerleader. But I would always feel terrible about myself and have so much anxiety when I knew the conversation was gonna— get passed over to me, and I'm gonna say what about myself? Oh, I'm a really good girlfriend, and I— like, there was nothing to— there's nothing to say. And so that grit really came from kind of hyping up in many moments those times when people would ask me that question, I didn't have anything to say, and just like feeling that pain over and over again. You got to find different ways to motivate yourself to do hard things, and I am very motivated by like pain in that way.

Mm-hmm.

I'm like, oh, that sucked when she asked me that, and she had this thing, and she was successful. And like, it sucked that I didn't have anything to say. So this is me putting in the work to create the thing so I can actually say, oh, this is what I do. And it's not from some like cop-out place where, you know, I could just like slap a title onto something. No, like I really built this. And if you asked me my experiences about these things, they're real experiences so that I could, you know, show up and be the person that I believed I could be and thought I could be, but really wasn't acting like.

I love this conversation so much because I don't get to have too many people on who started with all the things they wanted. Like, it's so incredibly rare to have somebody go, can I please just tell you that at 25 or whatever age you were, at a really young age, like, I literally had everything. Like, you— and you were in love, like, kind of that peak. And I get that for some people, there are some people in the world that that is like enough, and I love that for them so much. But clearly you have something intrinsically that I believe the people who listen to my podcast have, that you know you're a creator and you know you're a builder and you know you're here to shift and impact. And I don't believe that you can be happy without earning that respect and that just deep self-confidence in yourself that you can do those things and you can create and you can build. So who do you think, you know, before we dive in even deeper, if you wouldn't have gone for the things, who do you think you would be right now in your marriage? Do you think that that would have impacted your relationships and your marriage? Do you think you might have sabotaged things if you—

I would have absolutely sabotaged things, and I would have had Brandon not focused on what he's focused on now. I mean, I get to inspire my husband today to go and do more because if I don't have to work. Like, he definitely doesn't have to work, like, but he does. And he's gonna show up this morning and he's gonna take calls and he's gonna do all of these things because we've now so fortified on what our mission is and why we do work hard. And we've had to confront those difficult conversations, like, what is this all about?

Hmm.

And is it really about money? Like, how many, how many belts can you buy? How many Shoes can you buy? What, how many cars can you buy? Like, it really, when you get to a level of having the financial success that you want, it changes things. But it is an important differentiator for me. He and I, like, his money is not my money. And it was very real to me in conversations early on that like, I wanted to make my own money.

Mm-hmm.

I never wanted to be dependent financially on somebody. He is the most generous person on the face of this planet. But like, I've always had that urge to not feel like I was dependent upon somebody and be able to create the things that I want to create and buy the things that I want to buy. And so today, you know, the, the purpose and the passion really comes from a place of we've had to confront very difficult conversations and ask the difficult questions so that we're very aligned on what our mission is. But You know, it wasn't always like that. And we would fight over stupid things. We would get in arguments just because I think we were bored. And I find that, you know, a lot of people just, they're too bored, so they make up shit in their lives to have some drama and to create some little game. And the game then becomes being right against your husband instead of like, hey, let's go conquer this big milestone and this big target that we're all pushing against. And there's an external enemy. Like, you're not my enemy. And I learned so much of that from being around Elena, where, you know, she's just like, she's so target-focused with grants and they're so mission-focused that the little things that you do to each other don't become these big things. They, they're very small things and you handle them as quickly as possible because you have to get back to your purpose and why you do what you do. And if you don't know what that is, I think it's easy to chase money or it's easy to chase boredom and make the game really small.

I love that. I can't tell you how many times now that Chris and I are chasing our own missions and then also a mission together, one of the fastest ways that we end an argument is to just look at each other and go like, this is so stupid, we don't have time for this. Literally, we'll both just be like, this is so dumb, we literally have no bandwidth and no time. So let's drop this because it's wasting our energy. And that'll be it. We'll be like, oh yeah, that was really stupid because it's So small compared to what we're doing.

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So for everybody listening, I feel like they're like salivating. Like, how do I figure out? Like, what are these conversations that you're having that you figure out what your mission is solo? And then how did you figure out your mission together?

We really started from a place of saying, in ten years from now, what does life look like? And that sounds cliché, but when you're actually able to say, okay, today I'm. 32 years old, and in 10 years from now, I am going to be 42 years old. What does that life actually look like? And who are the people I'm spending time with? And how much time did I spend with my family? And what products have I produced that I'm proud of? And when you have those conversations, you know, the moments in life that you love are not the moments where you bought some shiny thing. The moments in life that you really aspire to are the things that would require an immense amount of work and an immense amount of dedication because you're proud of this thing that you've accomplished and this thing that you've created. And I believe that we're here on this planet to create things and not just to consume and constantly be an effect of what other people are putting out there. Like, what, what does Lori want her corner of the world to look like? And how can she impact all of the people that she has the potential and the capability to impact? And so those conversations Started with who are the people that we're spending time with. And when you really think big, this sounds outrageous, but I have on my vision board, it's updated now because like it's a little different today, but 7 years ago I wrote down that I wanted to go on a trip with Beyoncé and Jay-Z as like a friend.

Like we're just friends and we go on a trip. I love that you had that. So way to go. It was very real to me.

I'm like, well, it wasn't real to me, but Like, who would I have to become then to be interesting enough for Beyoncé and Jay-Z to hang out with me? Like, I, I was not interesting. I didn't have anything going on. And so really mocking up what 10 years out looks like and then working back to what does today look like and how am I actually making progress. ChatGPT is amazing for this because I didn't have ChatGPT 7 years ago when I was really crafting this version of myself. But today, ChatGPT You could ask it to quiz you on core areas of knowledge that you want to get. Like, let's say you want to build a business and you've never built a business before. You could say, hey, quiz me on what I would need to know in order to start my own business and in order to create this next version of myself so that then I can know what I don't know and then build me a syllabus that I'm going to use to study 2 hours a day every day for the next 30 days and then reassess me then. And it will populate all of this for you instead of going to some college or university that gives you some standard syllabus. It can actually be customized based off of where you see yourself. Okay, what are the skills gaps? Test me on the things I don't know that I don't know. Because if you knew the things you didn't know, you'd just go and get that information. But I find it, especially working with business owners, most of the time that they get in trouble, they don't know the things that they don't know. So ChatGPT can be incredible in helping you get those skills rapidly if you're really looking for them.

Oh my God, I like all of the memes right now that are like ChatGPT being people's best friends. I'm like, no, it's— it is a real thing because it's truly— it has answers to everything. Now, I still think we need the human side so we understand the journey and practically how it works in the world, but it's like, it is life-changing. It can truly coach you On business. It's insane. It's—

Have you customized your ChatGPT?

Uh, yes. Like, trained it and— Tell me your version.

I just found this out.

Okay.

And this is like a little, a little hack that I'm sharing with everybody that is interested. So on ChatGPT, you can click your picture on the right-hand of the screen and it drops down and you can say like, customize my ChatGPT. So it asks you currently 3 prompts. It says, what is your name or what do you want to be referred to? What are your preferences? And then anything else you'd like us to know. And so I've customized this thing where it gives me girly analogies for everything I ask it. So if I ask it a question about like private equity, it's like private equity is da da da da da da. And it defines the words and does all the things that I like because I tell it to. I tell it to put it in bullet points. But then it also is like imagine walking into a mall and private equity is like going into a store and being able to invest in the hottest, most cool upcoming brands that nobody else has access to because you're just in the know with your mall friends. And that allows me to learn new things in a way that I understand them. So whatever you're into, I'm into girly things like give me the nail polish, give me the mall analogies, and I learn faster.

Okay, guys, this— I mean, if you took anything else away, that's— that is the tip, actually.

Podcast over.

Exactly. I love this. I'm just chatting about the growth between you and your husband as well, and how that's really impacted your life. Because I do think Chris and I were talking on our walk this morning, and there's so much about how your partner is like the most important decision that you'll make, because I believe that's going to determine so much around what you do in your life. For somebody who doesn't have a partner right now, what would you tell them? Like, how can they create an environment for themselves to become the woman they wanna be.

Mm-hmm. I couldn't agree with you more that your partner is the most important decision that you will make in your entire life. Mm-hmm. And if you haven't attracted your partner yet, mm-hmm, you have to ask, who is the ideal person and how am I attracting that type of person with every single action, with every interaction? With the places I'm spending my time in. And oftentimes, I think for women, it's challenging because those, those things that you're working on, the self-work and the self-care, if you're hanging out on a Friday night with an eye mask on reading a book or listening to this podcast, it's not likely that you're going to find your husband through doing that particular activity. But what you'll hear in doing that activity and what you will learn is You need to find groups of people who are also connected to the content that you are listening to and the interests that you have. So how do you take that work and actually pivot it into an in-person experience where you're able to meet people who aren't just talking about self-development, but who are really invested in their own self-development? And 9 times out of 10, people who are invested in self-development Actually show up to self-development related courses, events, wellness events, gyms. And, you know, I think online dating is great too, but if I was single right now, I would just work so hard on myself in those quiet times, but then show up to events and say yes to every potential event that is in alignment with those habits and those goals that you have so that you can be the type of person that when the other Your partner is there, like they think of you and they actually understand that you are the person that, you know, is doing the same things they are.

I love that. Okay, so you, you get in front of a lot of rooms, you are speaking in a lot of rooms where it's very male dominated, there is a lot of energy, there's a lot of masculine energy, there's a lot of power, there's a lot of incredible people, there's a lot of big people, there's a lot of new people. There's all the things that when you are a newer speaker, because I know like this wasn't in your back pocket, you weren't like, oh my god, I do this all the time when you started doing what you do. And I see you online in front of rooms all of the time. And I want to know, when you first started, you know, speaking and stepping in front of people, were you already confident? Did you already feel good? Like, where were you at mentally before some of your first, you know, speaking engagements?

It cracks me up That this question is being asked because, Lori, I used to watch you when I was terrified of speaking. Like, I wish one day to be able to have the confidence and poise. I watched you at Angie Lee's event. It must have been 7 years ago. And you just like had this fabulous outfit on and the music was playing and these girls were freaking hyped and you hyped them up and you like danced. And I literally thought, If I had to go up there and do this right now, I couldn't. Like, my body would not allow me to do this. I would be petrified. And so yes, I have had all of the speaking noise and the fears. And it's been challenging for me because my bar is the men I'm around.

Mm-hmm.

So me being not good at it, being fearful about it, but also speaking in front of or after people who are amazing and have much more experience really held me in a holding pattern for— it was 4 years. I had a horrible speaking experience very early on in my career. It was, it was so bad to the point where I literally could not talk to a group of people larger than 3. I went from this confident girl—

You have to tell us. I mean, you have to tell us. Because we, we need to know this is normal.

It's so normal. I dropped out of college, I went full time on my job. And 2 months into being full time dropping out of college, my parents cut me off financially. I was supposed to make this presentation, this leadership presentation for a new program we were rolling out. I was speaking at 8 o'clock in the morning, and I had from 8 to 9 to give this full presentation.

That's long.

It was, it was a long presentation. Weirdly enough, I wasn't nervous about it beforehand. Like, I felt prepared. I had made some changes the night before and didn't sleep very much. So, okay, maybe I was nervous, but at the time, you know, I was 20 years old. So it's like, okay, like I got this, like I can use the card that I'm like young. And I went to go up there in front of this long U-shaped room in a DoubleTree in Portland, Oregon by the airport. We'll never forget. And everybody got their coffee. They sat down at their tables. I was the youngest person by at least 10 years on this team. Nobody wanted me to be working on this project. It wasn't like I was well received by the team. I had just dropped out of college to work on this project and to, to launch it. And so I walk up there and 7 minutes into my presentation, I turned around to look at the slides and then turned back to the audience. And in that moment, I became nervous to where I spoke so quickly that I gave the rest of my presentation in 3 minutes. So it is 8:10 in the morning. Everybody is still like blowing their coffee because it's too hot. And I end this hour-long presentation at 8:10 by saying, well, you guys can go to the bathroom now.

They just freaking gone to the bathroom, Lori. They didn't have to go to the bathroom. It's just the best.

It was the worst. It's the worst.

And it's the best because it gives so much permission, Natalie. It just— it's like so helpful for people to hear because like even if it goes that way, look at what a freaking powerhouse you are. Even if you excuse people to the bathroom 5 minutes after you start.

4 years I could not talk to people. I kid you not, it was so scarring. This wasn't like a, a little momentary thing. Like this moment defined my 20s Until I decided I'm no longer listening to this story that I'm telling myself. Wow. I'm an intelligent person. I can figure out how to communicate what I'm thinking out of my mouth in a way where people can understand it.

Yeah. I also find it funny that you look to me because I was probably— I'm the speaker who like also shares how nervous I am. So maybe that resonated with you that you're like, you can still do this. But I'm always like, I'm still actually always nervous. Like, And there's, there is a little part of me that's grateful for that because I think it keeps me on my game. Otherwise, I will tell you, I have a tendency, if I feel confident in something, I'll wing it. And I don't think that's good. So God's probably like, no, we're gonna make you have anxiety over every speaking engagement that you've ever had. So what do you do now? Like, you are, you know, you're sometimes you'll be around headliners, you can be in between headliners, like, and by the way, you're a headliner yourself, so I hate that I'm even saying this. But tell me kind of like what goes on in your head and how do you prep for being in front of all of these people now?

I've had so many reps at this point because in order to get to a point where I could speak in front of people, I decided that most people only give a presentation maybe once a month. So how do I get good at making presentations? I do it 3 times a day. So when most people are doing it once a month, I'm doing it 3 times a day. So I've mocked up, and my life still looks like this today, all of these different opportunities for me to give a speech and to create that same feeling so that if I'm prepping for a meeting, I know that I'm walking myself through, okay, how would I present this if I was on stage? And it's been 6 and a half years of this now to where I just go through the same process that I go through, but I give myself mini presentations at least 3 times a day still. And back in the day, you know, today I have a team of people, we have over 300 team members. And I have a daily all-team meeting where literally every single day we kick off the meeting and doesn't matter what's just happened to me in the morning, doesn't matter what's going on. We could be in the middle of a challenging situation or life could be great. I start the meeting the same way. I share with our team wins and what's going on, and I welcome them to work. And like, there's just, I create energy. And so I used to do that in a smaller venue back before I had a team of people. Where every dinner, it was ridiculous, but I would, I would make a toast. So it would be like me and my husband, and I would make a toast at dinner to mock up.

These are the points I want to share.

I'm going to make this intro. This is how I'm going to conclude it. And we're going to make a toast.

Hmm.

So it's just been all of those reps that today it's very easy for me to understand, okay, I'm just trying to communicate whatever my message is. to whoever is supposed to be listening to this. And the more comfortable I am with my message and the more I am in control of my communication, and I recognize the impact that it can have for, for good and to positively impact people, I'm good. I, I don't get nervous because I'm just realizing I'm myself. I'm comfortable with myself. I do the work that I need on myself so that I don't have weird hangups. And whenever I do have a weird hangup where I might feel insecure or unsure of myself. I always look at, okay, where am I letting myself off the hook? Because if I'm letting myself off the hook, or if I don't know something very well, of course I'm going to be nervous. So I think that's a good indicator.

One of my favorite things that you just shared, because this is exactly how I built confidence as well, is you have to create your own scenarios and you have to look for things in your life where you can create those, like, or it doesn't happen. People are like, yeah, but I'm not getting the opportunities to be able to practice the reps on. No, you create them or you find them or you have something that already exists and you create them in that. Like, yeah, is it awkward that maybe at a dinner you're like, I'm gonna do this thing where we're gonna go around and we're gonna do gratitudes, I'm gonna say why, and you know, I'm gonna get everyone to stand up and I'm gonna stand up, or whatever that looks like. Like, it is not easy to create those moments, but that's where you get your reps in, is feeling awkward and making people do those things. Like, I practice it literally even with my family 'cause I'm like, my family's over this. They don't want to do this anymore, but I'm still going to make them do it because it's a moment to like creating energy in an environment where energy could be low. And I think that that is where you— that's where you get a lot of reps. And it sounds like that's what you're doing in your life all of the time.

Same exact thing. Yeah, just gotta bring the energy. And I find that great leaders really recognize that role and they play that role.

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If you're ever in a meeting, you're there for a reason. You're not there just to sit there. You are not there just to take in information. You should be a participant.

Mm-hmm.

On Zoom, this has become more challenging because people can have all of their screens open and be doing other things. So you think they're in a meeting, but they're not in the meeting. And if you really think of your role as, I'm present where my 2 feet are, therefore if I'm there, I need to contribute. And if I don't need to contribute, I should move my body out to where I can contribute. And, you know, there's different ways to contribute. You can put reactions on Zoom, you can be in the chat on Zoom, and just being that person that really owns, I'm responsible for the energy of the space that I'm in, and the spaces around me need to have better energy while I'm there. That's the standard. And if they don't have better energy because I'm there, then I shouldn't be there because there's nothing I can do to impact it.

That is so good. And I think people can miss this, and it's one of the easiest things to do, even though it's challenging. It is one of the easiest things that you can do. I had one of the first people who helped me like really start to learn how to speak, a leadership coach, tell me, if you wanna be a good leader and if you think you're ever gonna get on stage and speak well, you have to first be a really great participant, even if it just starts with you sitting in the front row and nodding your head and never breaking eye contact. And so that's literally what I started doing. I was like, okay, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna be the best participant. And then like you said, in Zooms, like it's even butterflies in the beginning for, for me in the very beginning, 'cause I had so much anxiety to even put something in the chat box. What are people gonna think? Am I gonna get a response? It's a— because there's an opportunity to get rejected in all of it, right? So I think that's amazing. I think it's a really overlooked way of already starting to become a leader. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. You also have something that I'm really excited about that I want to talk about, but you have a new program coming out called Remix Your Business. And I think that you're a perfect person to lead something like this because you have literally been in so many businesses and around so many business people. I don't think people understand how many conversations that you have been privy to in such big conversations of really learning not only your own business and having to do what you've done in your own business, which is insane, but getting to learn from other people's businesses as well. And, you know, listen at these tables of people talking all about the insides of their businesses. So you talk about, you know, you have, you have 5 different pillars In this program that you're teaching, which I'm really, really can't wait to learn even more about it. But you talk about building a strong foundation, optimizing your sales and marketing systems, developing operational systems that scale, mastering people and leadership, financial mastery and growth planning. Where do you think people are kind of holding themselves back the most right now? Like your ideal client, where do you think they're holding themselves back? Like, where are they right now? What are they doing?

My ideal client is holding themselves back when it comes to what they expect out of the team that is supposed to support them.

Hmm.

And it's very easy when you're a small business owner to just point blame at your team members saying they don't do this. I can't find any great people because really when you think about all those buckets, you know, ideally the business owner isn't the highest performer in finance. They probably never took a finance course and don't understand their financials. It's probably not likely that they know what's working in marketing and that they are really well trained on copy and graphics and social and email marketing and podcasts and all of those channels. It's probably not that they're the best at operations. Like the majority of business owners get started because a founder has some skill or some viewpoint and they look to create a product or service that is built around that.

Mm-hmm.

And so if the founder can stay connected to that, They need great people around them to fulfill those functions. But in order to get great people, you have to be a great business owner and you have to create opportunities for people and let them know that your expectation is that you're able to change the trajectory of their careers through working with you. And so your team has just as high of an expectation of you as the leader as you do of them as your team member. And when businesses start to struggle, there's a, a breakpoint that happens around $3 million of annual revenue where the business owner has just kind of jerry-rigged all of these team members and all of these processes and can't quite get past it because they don't change the level of expectations they have for themselves as a leader and therefore can't lead other people across their marketing, sales, finance, ops functions to raise to the next level.

Hmm. Oh wow. That's so interesting because I actually see that. A lot. The $3 million mark, I hadn't ever like pinned it at a $3 million mark, but that's really interesting. Okay, so tell me about some of the things for people to build a strong foundation if they're like, hey, I really feel like I have this, you know, great business, but I'm— I just don't know if I have everything in place in order to really start scaling in the way, even, you know, maybe hitting 7 figures.

Hmm. Revenue per employee is a metric that people don't look at and they make bad hiring decisions early on because they don't know when they should hire the right person. So what they do is they might generate as an individual contributor $400,000 and think, oh, well, I'm overwhelmed. Therefore, I'm going to hire a VA and I'm going to hire somebody in marketing. I'm going to hire somebody in sales. And they just add people without there being structure to when is the moment that your business can financially add somebody. Mm-hmm. Because if you had that first target, you would then say, okay, for the next target, for me to be able to add a second person, what would have to happen in the business? And if you followed that logic, it would very clearly show anybody that you as the owner, you're predominantly responsible for revenue. There's nobody else helping you generate revenue. So in order for your business to continue to grow, you have to first hire revenue-producing roles. It wouldn't make sense for somebody to help you on the operations side. Yes, that might make you a little bit more effective, but to grow past your role of being primarily responsible for revenue, you need marketing and then sales roles. So the first role would be a salesperson to duplicate the business owner so the business owner can pull themselves out of the sales-oriented functions, the client-oriented functions, to be able to work inside or on the business instead of inside the business. And this revenue per employee calculation, when business owners do this, they can become pretty shocked. shocked at how low their revenue per employee is. If you have a million-dollar business and you have 10 employees, that means that each employee produces $100,000 of revenue. That business model is not profitable. If you can run your business where you're generating a million dollars, but you can do it with 3 employees and you created your business around a target like that, you would first know you're creating a profitable business, which is very important People like to just create businesses because they think that they love a product, but you're just going to feel like you have a job and eventually you're going to be part of a statistic of businesses failing in the first 5 years, the lion's share of them failing, all because you didn't start it with this idea of, I'm going to extract myself out of the business, therefore how would I eventually, or how would I create the business so that I could eventually do that? And so this revenue per employee metric, if you're a business owner right now and you're listening to this, I would really hone in on. Understanding what your revenue per employee is, and then how can you get that as close as possible to $250,000 to $500,000 of revenue and reshift your business to align to every employee generates $250,000 of revenue. Therefore, if you're in a million-dollar business, you should have 4 employees.

For people who are like, oh my God, I don't even necessarily know where to look for people yet who could help me with that, what would you say for that?

Oh boy, this is like my specialty. I could go crazy on people and hiring people because Our business, we have 300+ team members today, but my responsibility when we started Carto Ventures 7 years ago was to hire our first stabilized 50 team members, which took me 88 team members to find. And so I am a master, like I'm a fricking gangster on these recruitment platforms, on these sites. I know what you should be looking for, what you shouldn't be looking for. And I'm still today, 7 years later, a huge proponent of Indeed. Mm-hmm. And things that you can do on Indeed to really attract great people. If you look at how terribly somebody in your market is promoting for a role, you just, just like you would for funnel hacking on somebody else's website or landing page, you just do this on Indeed. You think of Indeed in the same way that you think of your marketing campaigns. You are attracting a client or a candidate instead of a client. So what does a candidate want to see? And if I'm a great candidate, I want to see that the business owner cares, that they're showing up, that they are communicating why I should work at their business versus the 20 other businesses that have just shown me jobs. And you're really looking to differentiate the fact that you're not looking to give somebody a job, you're looking to help them progress in their career, and you're going to fight for them and their goals inside your business. And you communicate that all through Uh, the Indeed platform and the different options that they allow you to, for free, populate that majority of business owners just don't leverage.

I, I believe in your program that they have access to you for all of these different questions too, correct?

For sure. And I'm doing live calls. That's my favorite part is being able to connect with people and just go through their questions. You know, going back to the, who I was 7 years ago versus who I am today, 7 years ago, I would have been terrified to be on a call. With hundreds of business owners asking me, well, for my engineering business, how would you go about looking at your revenue per employee when my contractors are X and my full-time team members are Y, but we use this out? And I would've been like, I would, don't ask me.

Exactly.

Don't look at me for this answer. Uh, but I've worked with so many business owners at this point that I'm game for whatever question a business owner has. I, I don't have all of the answers, but I have a lot of Frameworks and tools that really do work ranging from all industries. Hmm.

I love that. So, you know, does it matter what types of businesses people have or who do you look for or who would you love?

We are really excited about the home services spaces. So electricians, plumbers, HVAC, we love those types of businesses. Brick and mortar businesses are also a sweet spot, uh, anything in healthcare, wellness, Uh, and home services are like, we, I feel like I could do that with my eyes closed. Additional businesses that come to us though are marketing agencies, they're chiropractors, they're digital e-com based businesses, product based businesses, because the leadership philosophies on that don't change.

Mm-hmm.

The operations philosophies on that don't change, and the financial philosophies don't change. Operations definitely changes, but it's broad enough to be able to say, If you are e-com versus wholesale versus B2B, this is how you would look at your metrics in your business to paint a cohesive picture for what decision you make today to increase your revenue or to increase your profitability. And that doesn't change from business to business.

Okay. I love that. Well, Natalie, I've loved getting to talk to you this hour. Like, just flew. I'm like, could we get a second hour? We'll get another hour another time. Um, but what do you want to leave people with?

That's a good question. I didn't think about that beforehand.

It's a pretty big question, meaning like we talked about a lot of stuff.

I would say it's so important to not give up on the person that you think you can be. And if you want to build a big business, you can. If you want to have a great marriage, you can. If you want to be speaker, you can. And even though it feels silly, and so many times in my career, in my life, it's just, it's felt silly and ridiculous to think the things that I think or want the things that I want. And I can honestly say that it's possible if you just don't let other people convince you it's not, or even worse, convince yourself that it's not possible or that you aren't worthy or capable of doing whatever it is that you wanna do.

I love that. And you know, I really got out of this just like no matter no matter what you think you want or what you're going after, you know physically or building it really ultimately and I know this is true for me too in hearing you say it is just like such awesome confirmation of knowing it really is who you're becoming. It's always just like day every single day who am I becoming today because there there's initial quick hits of You know, fulfillment, but I wouldn't even say it's fulfillment, of gratification. But man, you gotta, you gotta love what you're doing and what you're building, and you gotta love who you're becoming in that process. So I'm so glad you shared that, and I'm grateful for you, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And you guys, I'm including the link below where you can go and check out Natalie's program. Natalie, what are some of your, um, where would you want to connect with people?

I love Instagram. I check the gram all the time. I'm @nataliedawson on Instagram. TikTok is fun too, but Instagram is, is my place.

Amazing. So go shoot her a DM. Let her know what your biggest takeaway was from this. If you're going to join her program, if you're going to check it out, but I also have that linked up below. And you guys, until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.