Episode 11: Why High-achieving Women Struggle in Relationships (and how to fix it)

Specifically, energy leaks are unresolved issues, unmet needs, and unseen efforts. The biggest problem don't come from one big betrayal or one big issue, but it's death by a thousand paper cuts. The true act of, like, courage and creating a relationship that is truly peaceful is not through avoiding the hard conversations, but addressing things head on before it builds up. Motions last 90 seconds. If we are not engaging with, we're not clear clinging onto them and we're not exasperating them. Fear is your compass. If you're leaning into the moments that you're afraid in your relationship, that's your way forward.

Melissa, thank you so much for joining us on Scar Tissue, the podcast. I am so excited to have you and introduce your magic to the community.

Oh, it's such an honor to join you today and I'm super excited for our conversation.

Now, I gave your intro, but what I didn't actually mention, and I just always like to highlight this for the listeners, is the power of getting in different room.

Absolutely.

Getting to masterminds and getting to events. Because you and I just met through like a high level in person event just what, a couple months ago.

Yeah, just last December, we got a chance to meet at that couples retreat.

Yeah. Which was so much fun. And so obviously, I mean, you were there speaking and sharing and related to your zone of genius. One of many. Thank you. But what I can't wait to dive in today is all about relationships, which is very exciting for me because my audience knows I'm in a relationship now for the first time in like five years.

Congratulations.

You and Dave are a while, you know, and so I'm like, oh, teach me everything. So whether you're a newbie like me or you're waiting for your person or you're a veteran in a relationship, you guys get your notebooks out because I know there's gonna be so much value. And truthfully, I don't want to speak for you, but I would imagine that the main principles can apply to any relationship. Not just romantic.

Absolutely. I mean, so much of what I help, specifically high performers who are looking for their person or in relationship do is close energy leaks and act from a place of relational courage. So really my work focuses on the soft skills that you can apply to any relationship.

So let's just go right there. What do you find? Or what do you. What would you consider energy leaks in relationship?

So for me, the way I define it, especially with any coaching clients I worked with, is specifically, energy leaks are unresolved issues, unmet needs and Unseen efforts. And so anytime we're experiencing that in a relationship, it is going to silently drain your focus performance. And so that's why I always say if you start at home by really closing those energy leaks, you can show up better everywhere else.

Could you give an example for the listener who might be like, okay, what are those?

So one of my favorite examples of this is like an unresolved issue around, let's say, even as something as simple as who's picking up after the kids or who's taking care of the house chores, Right? So if you're having issues around, okay, I'm doing all this work, but we agreed we would share it. That's an unresolved issue. Now, that may seem minor, but oftentimes what I find is that in relationships, especially with high performers, the biggest problem don't come from one big betrayal or one big issue, but it's death by a thousand paper cuts. And that's what happens is over time, if you just, if you're not talking about it, you're building up all this resentment. So now you start to see your partner through the lens of they're not doing enough, or they're not noticing my efforts, or they're not upholding agreements we've made.

I love that death by a thousand paper cuts. Because so often we focus on the big thing. But it could be all those little things. Like, I'm thinking of that game, what is it? Don't break the ice.

Yes, exactly.

And then all of a sudden it's like, bam.

And that's what I find often happens, especially with a lot of couples that I work with that have been together for like 15 years. There's no big betrayal. There's not one thing. They're saying, we're still holding onto this, but it's all these little things that build up over time and that create that really strong trigger response anytime the other person does something seemingly minor. So our reaction is so much bigger compared to what actually happened because we have all this built up resentment and these energy leaks over time.

You know what's so interesting is. And we don't script, we're just, we're going to flow. But as you're saying that if I'm being brutally honest in my previous, like, long term relationship, last one I was in for a long period of time. While I will often point to what was the tipping point, that final thing, I genuinely think that was probably just something I could point to that made it make sense. Because we had a thousand paper cuts that weren't talked about and weren't resolved, you know, and that relationship wasn't meant to last and it served its purpose. So, like, hear me in that context. But I think very often we can point to that one big thing in relationships. You'll hear that often. But more likely what I'm hearing from you is that it could be a lot of little things that have just built up over time, but they don't almost seem like a big enough thing. So we point to one.

Exactly. And we're not practicing courage over the little things. And so like a muscle. And you know this as someone who's really into fitness, if you don't practice a certain movement, that muscle atrophies. And the same thing is true with relational courage. So you can practice courage in other areas of life in business, be really hard hitting. Right. But then you come home and you're afraid to say, hey, I just need like five minutes to myself before we start interacting, or I need a little bit of alone time, or I need fill in the blank and it's through practicing what I like to call the four types of relational courage. So first is the courage to be vulnerable, to share your internal world. Typically, this one comes a little bit easier, but. But the second type is the courage to ask for what you need. And oftentimes we avoid that for fear of being a burden or the expectation that the other person should just know, and that's where we run into trouble. And then the third type of relational courage is the courage to ask for what your partner needs. Over time, we stop doing this because we start to assume we know the other person and we stop being curious about what do they need. And so even just getting in the simple practice of every week asking your partner what. What is one or two things I could do to support you. And here's the one or two things that would be really helpful for me. Makes a huge difference.

That is amazing. I love that.

Yeah. And then the fourth, the fourth is the courage to bring up issues to be addressed. And we often avoid this because we think it's small, it doesn't matter. But then that's how you end up accumulating all these paper cuts over time.

Or what about that story? Like, it's not worth it.

Exactly. Right, exactly. Or we don't want to fight. And the way to keep the peace is just to not talk about it. But the true act of, like, courage and creating a relationship that is truly peaceful is not through avoiding the hard conversations, but addressing things head on before it builds up, before the tension is so intense that when you go to talk about it, you explode.

Right. Oh, that is so powerful. I mean, that right there, it's like, bye, everyone. That's all you say? You got enough. Thanks for coming. No, I love that. And I do think to build it in just as you said, you know, my background in athletics, but it just becomes a muscle.

Exactly.

You know, and. And that's something that I do in my own relationship is often like, what do you need from me today?

Beautiful. Like, prime example. Good job, babe. Yes. Crushing it. Because we forget to do that. We really do. We start to assume we know the other person. And that's where I think one of the really core virtues in relationships is curiosity.

Yes.

And always approaching the other person, not just about curiosity about what they need, but being curious about what is the story you're telling yourself when this interaction happens. So we stop assuming that the other person is viewing everything through the same lens of reality, remembering that we are two unique people, no matter how long we've been together, with two entirely different sets of experiences. So even just using the language, the story I'm telling myself is. Is so profoundly powerful because it reminds you first that what you're experiencing is simply a story. And the second is it allows your partner to rewrite that story for you. So if you say the story I'm telling myself is that every time you forget to take out the trash, you don't love me anymore. Right. Help me rewrite that story.

Yep.

What's actually happening. Right.

That's such a beautiful tool. I love how tangible these are, you know, because so often in common, when we talk about, you know, things that can feel not fluffy in a way that they don't have substance, but you can't grab them. Right. These are such grabbable things. Now, something else I've heard you speak about is what are the biggest things that actually cause those friction points? Like, how do we get to those friction points where now it's like, well, we have to have those conversations. What are. What are the things that you see in relationships?

So we touched on it a little bit earlier, but really it comes down to unseen efforts, unmet needs, and unresolved issues.

Okay.

So you usually. These triggers originate from something that we're not getting or we didn't get in a past relationship. Right. So our experiences build on each other, and we start to create stories. And so I always talk about that the friction comes from a story that's not being explained to the other person. Right. So we start to Craft this idea of who the other person is and how they can or can't meet our needs without ever bringing it up.

Oh, yeah.

And then you just slowly build that resentment and think, okay, because our brains are prediction machines.

Yeah.

We're storytelling machines constantly. So we're taking in data from what's currently happening, tying it back to things that have happened in the past and extrapolating.

Right.

Which is useful in many cases, but can also get us into hot water in our relationship if we're not pressure testing the story that we're creating now.

There's such a balance. I think of this and something that just came up for me is my previous stories between relationships and really the death of my daughter is that it's inevitably going to go to shit. So why don't we just get it over with now? Right. And I have to be so wildly aware of that story because I know it's not the truth. Now. One side is making that the story, and now I just want to blow up the relationship or leave. Right. The other side is a desire to want to control and to know, which is also not healthy. Right. That's going to. It's like what I would say is like a fad diet and health. Like, it doesn't work. Like, moment. You're like, oh, this worked. This worked. It doesn't work.

Looking for a quick fix.

Exactly. And so it's like holding in that middle. And that's just one example I. I've witnessed in myself, in relationship that I'm working through of, okay, it's all just going to go to shit. So why don't I run away? Okay, we're not going to do that. Okay, well then maybe I'll try and control because then I'll feel more secure. Well, we're not going to do that either because control is an illusion. And that's also not healthy. Like, nothing healthy grows in that environment. So now we're just going to sit in this discomfort. And so what do I do? Help me.

And I would say too. So are you much of a journaler?

Oh, every morning.

Perfect. Do you do a gratitude journal?

I would say so. I have a manifestation practice and every day I write down something I'm grateful for.

Excellent.

And in my partnership, every single day we say, what are you grateful for?

So do you say it about each other or generally?

It will vary. Yeah, it will vary.

So one of the key practices that I always give to coaching clients is to actually do a evening appreciation ritual where you're sharing one thing that you Appreciate about the other person or something you witness they do for you or the relationship that day, because it starts to orient you towards the positive. And I would say, especially in your case of explaining, you know, you are very aware of this story. So what your brain needs is stacking evidence.

Yes.

That this is not going to end. This is not going to implode. So even making a consistent list or writing it down or sharing it with your partner of ways you can tell that he's committed, ways that he's investing. And so if you start listing out all the ways he's investing and all the reasons why based on present tense evidence, that it's not going to come to an end, you can start to shift that lens for yourself. This is also something I have couples do that view each other through the lens of he doesn't care or she doesn't care, is making a list of all the ways that they show up for them.

Yeah.

And it's profound because when your brain starts to actually see evidence to the contrary, it starts creating a new story. So even making that a daily practice, since you're already doing a gratitude practice of writing down evidence that he's not going anywhere.

Right, right. I know, it's so funny. I mean, poor guy. I have, like, no filter, but my.

Husband gets it too.

Like, you know, I went up to, like, the office the other day or something and knocked on the door, and he's in the middle of work and he was stressed or something. You know, whatever. Not even stressed. Just busy. Honestly.

Just working.

Right. Just working busy. And so by the time I walk down the stairs, I'm like, I'm gonna book my flight and go home. And I was like, oh, it's my little girl who's scared.

Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And then I kind of laugh at myself, like, you're not doing that, you know, but, like, those responses are so real. So do you have any tools or suggestions for people when those come up? Because they're going to. Let's be honest, they're going to.

Yeah, 100%. And so one of them is the writing down that list of all the evidence of the opposite. Yep. And so everything that's going right, a going right list instead of a going wrong list is profoundly helpful. The other is to just simply even sit with the emotion and not resist or cling to it. Just allow it to be. Because there's a lot of research, and I'm sure you're familiar with that. Emotions last 90 seconds. If we are not engaging with. We're not clinging onto them, and we're not exasperating them. So really just being with the other one that I love is if you're somebody who likes the kind of physical element of it is wearing a rubber band and just simply snapping the rubber band every time you have the thought, it creates space between you and the thought and kind of a physical awareness. Because when you can get back into your body, into your five senses, and the emotions slow down, if you're like, I'm feeling my hands on the chair. I'm feeling my feet on the ground. And so just coming back to your senses pulls you out of the spiral. That often happens.

Right. Wow, I love that.

I'm so glad.

You know what I was thinking? You said 90 seconds. I mean, first of all, like, that's great. I mean, I think 90 seconds will feel like a lifetime when you're in that emotion.

It absolutely will.

It's kind of like it reminded me of, like, 90 seconds in a cold plunge. Feels like the longest 90 seconds ever.

Can feel like an hour.

It can feel like an hour. Right. But you just breathe through it.

Exactly.

So much nervous system regulation and even.

Just being aware of it or naming. I feel fear, I feel anger. I feel whatever the emotion is. Because simply by naming the emotion, you're creating separation neurologically between you and the experience.

Yeah.

Because you are the experiencer of those emotions. You are not those emotions.

What do you wish more couples understood?

I wish more couples understood that their partner cannot read their minds and they shouldn't have to. It's so foundational and so simple, but so powerful, is just asking simply for what you want or need or what you want that how do you want them to respond when you're feeling emotional? Like giving your partner the playbook to you is so powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. And the truth is, I think when I've done that, I've also said this feels scary because I'm trusting you not to weaponize my playbook. I'm giving you everything. Right. I'm giving you the map. And so that takes courage to your point.

Absolutely.

Right. To be able to communicate that.

Yeah. And it can be scary. And it should be because you're doing something new and you're doing something different. And I always say fear is your compass. If you're leaning into the moments that you're afraid in your relationship, that's your way forward.

You know, it's so interesting is when I was in my grief therapist's office after my daughter passed, it was obviously hard for her father and I. And I was, you know, you're going through it all. And what she said to me was that most relationships don't fail because of the loss of a child. If a child's died in this situation, they fail because of the expectation of the other person to grieve the same way you do. And I just took that and ran with it in every aspect. Or do I have an expectation that they're gonna read my mind? Where do I have an expectation that they're going to work the same way I do, that they're going to think the same way I do, that they're going to process the same way? And so I think expectations have got to be such an integral part. And how do you see that play in. In the work that you do?

So I always just use the word story for where you might say expectation.

Yeah.

Is like, what is the story you're telling yourself about the way that your partner should respond about what's normal, what's not? And so when we can start to understand that we are a very unique being who no one else is going to react to things the same way we do or respond to us in the same way, that's when we start giving, like you said, the map. The map to our internal world and also having that clarity within of what do I want my partner to do when I'm really upset? Do I want them to hold space? Do I want them to ask questions? Do I want them to get upset with me? Like, what is that thing that you want? Because oftentimes we have expectations we're not even fully aware of until we don't get it right in the moment. And then. So taking a mental note, how would I like to teach my partner to respond to me differently the next time? And so when you're not in the heat of the emotion coming to them with, hey, let's have a conversation about how we respond when one of us is sad, when one of us is upset. I had one couple I was working with who whenever the wife would cry, the husband would walk out of the room.

Oh.

Because that's what he would want.

Got it. He would want space, to be alone. Yeah. Yeah.

And so once they had the conversation, I would like you to hold me when I'm crying. He was able to make change immediately. And similarly, when he was upset, he wanted her to leave the room. Yeah, but it sounds awful. When I first said it, I saw your response. And that can be anyone's response of, what do you mean you're leaving? When I'm crying or what do you mean? But that's how he perceived that she would want to be cared for. And so understanding that we are so different from anyone and getting crystal clear on what your needs are in heightened emotional moments and sharing that before the moment or arrives, if there's one thing to really take away, it's over. Communicate before and have a plan before the emotion strikes.

I love that. Now as a, you know, high performing, high level entrepreneur, speaker, a million amazing accolades.

You as well. Thank you.

How do you find that masculine, feminine in relationship particularly? A lot of the women listening to this are high performers, executors, drivers in their work.

So finding a partner who embraces that and also balances both sides of the duality is key. So one of the things I love about my husband most is that he can be incredibly soft when we're together, but he's also a hard charging former Marine. So I mean, the masculine feminine dynamic, I think everyone possesses both. And so it's all about knowing what, when you want to be in what space, or even intentionally asking your partner when you want them to take the lead, especially for high performing women. So I don't know if this has been an experience for you, but the end of the day, you may not want to make decisions anymore. You're just like, you pick where we're going to dinner, I'm out. And so. But communicating that in advance, again, it's this over communication that may feel like a lot early on, but allows you to be in your feminine. If you proactively say, hey, this is an opportunity, like, let's trade off, planning dates. Right. Could you take the lead today?

Right. I love that. And I think giving women, because I have a more women dominated, female dominated audience, the permission to understand, like you.

Can be both 100%.

I was speaking recently at an event in Miami and I was on stage and I was saying like, I'm a driver, I have 80 contractors, I do this, I do that. And at the end of the day, I like literally look at my boyfriend. I'm like, help me. You know what I'm saying? You know? But I also think that there's something nicer about the duality. When you are so far in that in, in one area of your life to then be able to flex into the other, you almost appreciate it more.

You do? Absolutely. And that's been my own experience. I mean, prior to even meeting my husband, I went on over 100 first dates.

Oh, okay. We need to hear more about this.

I went on a lot of dates.

Okay.

And I was actually one of those weirdos that took notes for many of the days.

Surprised me. I love this.

Yes. So all of that ended up showing me, too, that there was a very particular kind of person that I needed in my life, too. And it helped me get more clear about the values, the type of person I would want, and something for me that's very, very important. Beyond, like, the integrity and kind of core values, being family oriented is someone who can do both, who can be both masculine and be soft, caring, and kind. And so once I understood how to balance that a little bit more within myself, I knew what to look for.

Yeah.

When I was in the dating process.

How did you decide to go on 100 first dates?

I definitely didn't. I was hopeful that I would be my last date after date, like 15. Yeah. But just was determined. I think I went on probably closer to 125 dates before I met my husband over the course of a good seven years. So, okay. It was spread out over time, but spread out I was, you know, and I went through the. The highs and lows one would expect. You know, around date 60, I always joke that I was like, this is hopeless. What am I doing? But then I came back to it, and I really started approach dating as an opportunity to practice my own skills. Every date was an opportunity to practice asking better questions, be a better listener. And so when you can approach dating from. I'm going to have a good experience regardless of whether or not this is my person. It allows you to keep going. I would have loved to have met my husband on date five.

I know, but what you're speaking into is something I talk about all the time on this show, which is attached to the process.

Process, Exactly.

Right. And so you are attached to the process. Like, I am going to show up. I'm going to learn. I'm going to grow. Because the truth is, so many people miss wisdom and growth because they're only looking at the result or an outcome, not the process. And I think, in fact, they miss even better possible outcomes because they're only looking at, like, what they can see in that moment.

Penny, you know this. With entrepreneurship, you have to get so comfortable with what I like to call the magical dark, which is the space between your desire and where you are right now. And you're just in the magical dark. But it's only through that process and being in that space that you create things, that things are possible, because that's outside of the comfort zone.

Yeah. Now, how do you see like, do you see there are certain non negotiables for where couples need to be aligned and on the same page, there are so many different ways to be in relationship, right? I mean, you. I know, I know marriages that have, like, partially lived separately, you know, I mean, there's a million different ways. But are there things that you see that you're like, these have to be in line or in check for a relationship to work.

Core values. Okay, Core values and lifestyle values. So these are the two things I always say when someone is single and looking for a partner, they're dating to make your list based on what are the core character values. So for my husband and I am mission integrity. Those are key ones. And then lifestyle values. Are you someone who wants a family? Do you want to travel? Do you want some sort of combination? But if you are not in alignment of what your future you're building looks like, it's not going to work.

Right.

So I think that's very unique to each couple. But I think having those proactive conversations about what do you want our life to look like in five years? Now you don't have to enjoy doing all the same things. You don't have to have the same hobbies, but you have to honor, respect, right? And celebrate what your partner does and how they like to live life. So it's, I think, really just coming into an agreement of what does our future look like. And any relationship requires sacrifice. I don't think that's a bad word, right? I think sacrifice is good in many ways. But what are you each willing to sacrifice to be together?

Oh, I think that's so powerful. That's so beautiful. How did you find your way into this particular niche of work?

So prior I was a college instructor for about 10 years. I also had my own marketing business for close around the same amount of time. I came from the textbook industry, so I'm a big researcher by trade. And I dove deep into reading every relationship book I could get my hands on for about 10 years, went on a lot of these dates. And I was also working very closely with a lot of CEOs, executives and asking them about their relationships. I was super curious to see how they had these beautiful families, how they were making things work. And then when my husband and I got together, he at the time was training to be the first person to ski across Antarctica completely alone.

Oh, my goodness.

So we had to go deep very quickly and early on in our relationship. I think it was only three weeks into dating. I got invited on stage at an event he was speaking at, because they were like, how are you making this work?

Wow.

So almost from the moment we got together, we were getting questions about, how are you making your relationship work? He's going to be gone for four months doing not just a normal work trip.

Oh, my goodness.

And we had to raise a million dollars while traveling 80% of the year for his training. And we were able to accomplish all those things because we were doing something really different. And we went super deep. We got into alignment, we got into agreement. We didn't allow any energy leaks in our relationship. And so it was interesting because even when he was getting interviewed for, like, the Times of India, they became more fascinated with our relationship in many ways.

Wow.

And so that ultimately was. There was always a part of me that knew I wanted to do something in the personal development space.

Sure.

But when we were getting all these questions, all this innate interest, we were told we. We should be relationship coaches. Literally a month into dating.

That's incredible.

So we're. I was like, I've got to follow the signs.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And then fully stepped into this role about two years ago. And it has been clearly the most rewarding thing I've ever done to be able to see people make such meaningful change in their marriages and their relationships. I mean, it's been. It's been unreal.

I mean, were people in your life like, what are you doing getting into this relationship? Like, you just went on 150 first dates, girl, and now who's going to Antarctica? Like, come on.

You know what was funny? All of my friends said this makes perfect sense because he was somebody who moves at the speed and with the same intensity and drive that I did. And that was ultimately a lot of the things I was looking for in a partner. And he has such a big heart. Like, he is the sweetest person. I mean, his network, everyone considers him the glue. And that was something that I really saw in him. And I said, yes, I will endure all the wild things we're about to do because he has such heart and such drive, because the values and the quality and the kind of person you have to be to pursue this kind of goal is extraordinary.

That's so powerful. So I want to be. I want to be mindful of your time and also make sure that we're not leaving anything. I mean, obviously, there's so much more. So we'll let the listeners know where they can learn more. But if there's something that you feel really. Because we're in. Oh, I digress. But we're in a big year for relationships. We were kind of chatting about this before we hit record, but I was going to say, if there's, like, anything that feels like really important, the listener needs to understand this for their relationships. Whatever kind of may be, whatever type of relationship it may be, what might that be? And maybe tying that to the year of the peach blossom. Is that what I had? Did I get that correct?

According to the Chinese zodiac calendar, we're going to be in the fire horse year. And it's also considered a peach blossom year, which is a very auspicious time, if you believe in that sort of thing, to make meaningful change in your love life. So this is really considered, like, the year of relationship. And if there's one thing I think the listeners can understand is that acting from a place of courage and taking the next step, whether that's going up to someone you're scared to talk to or that's addressing an issue in your relationship that's been really unresolved, that is going to be the way that you get closer to the life that you want. Because your relationship can become the greatest accelerator of your success if you invest in it. And there's, I think, believe it's 86% of millionaires are married.

Wow.

So I think, especially for high performers, your relationship can be your competitive advantage. And so making the most of this year could not be more important.

I completely agree. I mean, I obviously was successful, you know, built independently, but I always knew, and I always held that in the right relationship or partnership, I can go further and I can take that person further and. But holding the ground for that level, as you did through 100 something dates.

Right.

I'm gonna keep updating 300, 370, just keep increasing it. Right. But you knew the level and the standard in which you were holding. Right. And so I. I genuinely believe relationships are your greatest expanders and your greatest teachers.

And so there's no greater mirror, really. There's no greater mirror for the personal work. If you're somebody who's listening to this, it's very likely you care a lot about personal development. And there is no greater mirror to stir up the things that need to be healed and grown through than having the right relationship.

So if somebody says, how do I invest in my relationship? Like, what are three ways they could do that?

Is this for someone who's currently in a relationship?

Yes.

Yes. So the first one is to create an evening gratitude or appreciation ritual. At the end of every day, ask your partner, say, hey, let's exchange one thing that we really appreciate about the other person. Because what this will do is it will start orienting both of you towards the positive what's going right. And I've even had clients say that now they actually look through rose colored lenses of their partner because they're looking for what they're doing right. There's so much stimuli always coming into our brain. We're only going to attach to what we're looking for. The questions we ask are critical. So ask questions of what your partner is doing right. The second is remember to infuse some novelty. Continue having new experiences. Especially if you've been a relationship for a while, maybe even if it's once a month, you have like a novelty date. So one of you plans a new place to go. It could be a park, it could be a restaurant. Try something new, because that's going to increase the dopamine experience, which is a reward system in the brain. And typically in long term relationships, that's the first thing to go.

I was going to ask you about long term, so I'll, I'll put a pin in that while you give us the third.

Oh, yes. So the third, I would say is make a practice of what I like to call cleaning the windshield. So at the end of every day, just check in and say, hey, was there anything I said or did that didn't land right? It gives you both an opportunity to rewrite any kind of negative stories you're starting to build before they become serious issues.

Oh, I love that. It's avoiding the paper cuts.

Exactly.

Oh, that's so good. Yeah, I was gonna ask you, and maybe we can kind of wrap with this and then let people know where to find you. But you know, as relationships go, you hear a lot of times things get stale. Well, is that true?

So the honeymoon phase.

I'm like, tell me, tell me.

The honeymoon phase can truly last forever if you're intentional. And I'm a firm believer of that. And especially interviewing dozens of couples who've been together for 30, 40 years for the book that my husband and I just finished co authoring. It's not out for publish yet. It was all about how to build a thriving relationship as a high performer. And so we interviewed all these couples that had been together for 40 plus years. And what the common thing between all of them is, they still felt like new couples.

I love this. So what you said was that the honeymoon phase can last forever, can last.

A lifetime if you're intentional. But to do that, you have to understand what is the neuroscience or the chemistry of, like, what's actually happening? So that feeling of desire and chemistry you have from your partner and is really based on, first, dopamine, which is the reward system in your brain, and that's activated through novelty and play.

Okay.

So the couples that still felt like new couples were still playing, they were still having inside jokes. They still had new experiences. The second is oxytocin. So oxytocin is the reward system in your brain that's specifically focused around feeling like you're bonded to the other person. And people typically think that oxytocin is only released through physical touch, but it's also released through moments of shared laughter, holding, eye contact, and through really this kind of new sense of connection that you get from when you are having these really vulnerable conversations. So the deeper you're willing to go, the more oxytocin you're releasing, it's not just through physical touch. And then the final is serotonin. So serotonin is that kind of mood stabilizer that you get from exercise and sunlight. So if you're going for a walk with your partner, you're releasing serotonin.

Can you repeat the four neurotransmitters?

Oh, yes, the three neurotransmitters. Dopamine, oxytocin, and serotonin.

Dopamine. Oxytocin. Serotonin. That is so interesting.

Wow.

And to understand the science behind it.

And that's how you can take action that is actually aligned with what's happening in the body and brain. So you're not guessing.

Which is so on brand for you. Right. Because you're a researcher.

Totally 100. Everything's research focused.

So it's not just like, you know, and I. I did an entire training one time years ago about how, like, Disney and happily ever after, how it's, like, ruined it for all of us. You know what I mean? It really. It really has because it's, like, unrealistic expectations.

You must feel this, like, intense spark when you first meet. Yeah, I didn't feel that with my husband. Neither did he.

Yeah.

It built through having these deeper conversations, finding alignment. And you can build chemistry. So if someone's listening and you are single, please stop choosing whether or not you go on a second date with someone based on how much of a spark you feel.

Yeah.

Because it's also likely you're going on a date that isn't conducive to building that sense of chemistry. You're sitting across from the person, looking them in the eye. Having zero physical touch. You're not like playfully touching their arm, nothing. So you're not getting oxytocin. You're not getting a lot of the neurochemicals needed to feel that spark. But let's say you go on a walk that's going to produce something different.

So couples can keep it alive.

Absolutely.

By focusing on those three things.

Yeah. And taking intentional actions that produce those.

Little actions towards those. And I loved how you reinforced for if somebody's single not to rule something out. Because it doesn't. Because I will tell you, like that was something I had to train myself for. Is that like that. That whatever it may be is oftentimes unresolved wounds or something. You know what I mean? It is not your higher self 100%. And so I love that, like give it the space to create the chemistry. Like let things kind of marinate a.

Little bit and really focus on value alignment over everything. Because ultimately this person is going to become your best friend, the person you spend the most time with. Like if you are not value aligned and what you want your life to look like. Chemistry can be built, but alignment can't be manufactured.

I love that chemistry can be built. Alignment can't be manufactured. You have dropped more things that we could put on T shirt and a coffee mug today. Oh, Appreciate it. So thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like the listener to kind of leave with think about action step to take as they are looking and evaluating their own relationships.

So the biggest thing I would encourage you to do if you're listening is to take one aligned action whether you're single or in relationship over the next week. So whether that's implementing a new ritual or habit in your relationship or it's making your list of your ideal partner and going into a new space, going on a first date. I just really want, if you're listening, to take in that the only way you're going to create the love life you want is through intentional action.

I love that doesn't magically happen.

We can manifest all we want, but if we're not taking a line action that's not showing up.

Another episode right there. I have like a whole rant on manifestation and.

And I'm sure we're alive.

Yeah, we'll talk about that. It's both. You need both. But that's not.

You do. Everything is strategy and serendipity. So if you're not taking that action, luck doesn't show up.

Yep. You know, and it was honestly like, I mean, the Whole podcast is birthed from the death of my daughter.

Right.

From the loss of my daughter. And one of the greatest lessons that light or grief taught me was no one's coming to save you. No one's creating your dream life for you. No one's building your business for you. Right? And so but it's this idea and it's not from a dismal perspective. It's a radical responsibility, radical ownership. Radical ownership. And that's a big thing that I talk about in my book, Scar Tissue. It's like we're in radical responsibility for our grief and our healing. And what I'm hearing is there's this level of radical responsibility in relationship.

100%. I actually always say radical ownership, which is the same as radical responsibility.

Oh, I just got chilled. So with that. Melissa, thank you so much. This is such a joy. I can't wait to read more of your work. Like study more of your. I can't wait till your guys book comes out. I know we can't share it yet, but we will. Where can people find you in the meantime?

So in the meantime, you can find me on Instagram Elissannonvati. I know my last name is difficult to spell, so I'm sure that'll be in the show notes.

Yeah, it will absolutely be in the show notes.

And eakperform love on YouTube or on peak performancelove.com Amazing.

Thank you so much. We so appreciate having you in.

Oh, it's been a treat.

All right, you guys, we will attach everything from Melissa in the show notes. I hope you took away as many little pieces of gold as I did. And in fact, I encourage you to go re listen to that one. Subscribe to Scar Tissue if you have not. For more content like this, be sure to follow Melissa on Instagram again. We will link everything in the show notes. Go take your notes. Re listen in. Find the gold and go take this to your relationships because that's where the magic is going to begin. See you next episode.