003 - Unmasking Professionalism: Code-Switching as Survival with Dr. Tieren Scott

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

There was a moment early in my career that really clarified what shifting can look like in practice, because that's what Black women do. I received feedback that I should sound more bubbly in how I presented. The example I was given was a colleague whose communication style was very different from mine. And what struck me wasn't that one style was better than the other, but that my natural voice, which is, I feel like is more grounded and measured. It was the first time I realized that professionalism It wasn't just about clarity or competence. It was about like the tone and whose was considered the default. Basically, that just let me know again that I have to adjust my tone and I have to sound different when I present. And I think that's also part of the reason why I don't train anymore either.

Tiran, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thank you so, so much for being here. I'm looking forward to our conversation and I'm a little bit nervous.

Yes.

We'll speak about a topic that is not often enough, I think, articulated and especially, yeah, often avoided. So I'm looking forward to, yeah, stepping into a braver space with you today, uh, speaking about race.

Yes.

And the role it plays in professionalism or what we call professionalism. Welcome, Taryn.

Thank you. Thank you again for having me. Yeah.

And I always like to kick it off with the same question. What is an unprofessional, something unprofessional you have done that turned out to actually having been the best thing you could have done? And unprofessional in air quotes.

Right, exactly. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you again for having me. And, um, hopefully my nervousness won't come out too much in this. in this episode. But to answer your question in terms of unprofessionalism, you know, of course how we, I guess, were semi-introduced to each other was me writing something, you know, for you to include in your book, hopefully, um, about unprofessionalism. And I talked about pivoting and, you know, in the, in the broader sense, for me, unprofessionalism started being about deciding how I wanted to show up in systems.

Mm-hmm.

that weren't built with me in mind rather than proving I belonged. So that's basically in a nutshell what outprofessionalism means to me.

When you think of professionalism, right, just like that, what would come to your mind?

So professionalism, I think, and I can only speak for mostly in America. I worked a little bit in Australia, but not long enough to understand the professionalism landscape. So of course, most of my life here in the US, and I think I share the belief like many others, and I'll just speak for myself, but also mostly probably for Black, a lot of Black American women, that there's a universal standard, but it's coded with very specific cultural expectations. And so, you know, there are systems that weren't, again, weren't designed with people who look like me in mind. And so, and also, you know, what I'm describing isn't, like I said, unique to me. It's something that many Black women in America learn very early on. So I learned, you, you, and, and I teach my kids this too. You learn how to show up in spaces because you have to navigate those spaces where we're not the default. And we become incredibly skilled at like reading rooms and adjusting our tone and presenting an image that's more palatable for those who don't look like us. And so it's, you know, learning when to speak and learning how to be perceived as safe and respectable. So, you know, even my tone right now is the tone that I use in work and I've always used in work. But when I'm with, you know, family, friends, and spaces where I feel safe, my cadence, My tone, my words that I use are different. It's, you know, it's because I feel safe and I feel like I can open up and be myself. And not to say that I can't do that with you, it's just, you know, this being broadcast to a lot of different people, I wanted to make sure, you know, you just, you know, that you have to put on a mask again to be more palatable. It's just something that's automatic for, I feel like, most, most Black people.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Thank you. What I hear is, um, I hear 2 things. One is the assumptions or the thinking ahead to anticipate what might be expected. So what is the right way to speak, to look, to navigate, to behave?

Absolutely.

And then combined with that, self-censorship?

Yes.

The kind of thought of, oh, the way how I would naturally do it is not good enough.

Right. Yes. I mean, there was a moment early in my career that really clarified what shifting can look like in practice, because that's what Black women do is we shift. And I received feedback that I should sound more bubbly in how I presented. That was the word that was used was bubbly. And the example I was given was a colleague whose communication style was very different from mine. And what struck me wasn't that, that one style was better than the other, but that my natural voice, which is, you know, I feel like is more grounded and measured. I don't maybe sound bubbly, but it was the first time I realized that professionalism, it wasn't just about clarity or competence. It was about like the tone and who was considered the default. And even in the office, when we had that conversation, this was years ago, there was, the colleague was right there and she gave an example. And, and her tone. And so basically that just let me know again that I have to adjust my tone and I have to sound different when I present. And I think that's also part of the reason why I don't train anymore either, because I know that my tone is a little heavier. It's maybe not as, you know, bubbly and smiley. So—

So bubbly is upward energy, kind of, oh yeah, we're having a great time.

That's the example. That was the example. So, so, and I, and I said it too. And she's like, yes, just like that. I think I can't remember the words I said, but I said, hey everybody, today we're going to present. And it's, you know, it just, it's, I was like, ooh, that's exhausting if I have to do that for hours a day, every day, because that's just not how I sound. And, you know, I let her know that I smile when I talk and hopefully that will, you know, like you see me and hopefully my tone sounds a little bit more uplifting, and it wasn't enough because I received feedback from her, who received feedback from leadership, that, you know, Taryn doesn't sound like she likes to do what she wants to do. So I said, okay, that's okay.

That's terrible.

You know, it is what it is. Yeah, I would consider it a microaggression. You're letting me know that, that who I am My authentic self, not angry, not mad, not mean, but just how I show up is not— you can't show up authentically. And let me tell you what this needs to look like. And, and not let, you know, not, not directly saying this is what you need to do and this is who you need to be like. It's just, you know, like maybe you could sound like this. Here's an example. You know, it's just, it's, it's very coded.

Yeah. And what I find striking and dangerous is that especially in spaces, in facilitated spaces and training spaces, the, the container we create is important. And we all know that how the facilitator and trainer feels and how authentic they show up will immediately translate into how their participants And learners will show up because if you're putting on the mask and being someone you're not, they will think that the same is expected of them.

I think if it's maybe for people who are not good at putting on the mask, again, you know, we're especially Black women, Black people in general are trained to put on the mask and no one is the wiser. They don't know that I'm putting on a mask. And so I can present one way, but if I say that I'm like a whole different way, they'll be like, really? What? I never knew. Um, so, you know, and, and there's, there's data and research on this. There's a, a book that I listened to recent— recently on Audible. It's called Shifting: The Double Lives of, of Black Women in America by Sharice Jones and Kumea Shorter-Gooden. And they, you know, they, they talk about experiences again that are similar to mine, and it's, it's all over the country. And I don't know any of these women, but we're all experiencing the same thing as far as Putting on and taking off the mask. And it's not, you know, and we won't go into that, but it's not just in corporate spaces. It's, you know, if I go into a store, you know, so I'm not followed. I've, and then it's in spaces where people, because I present as not like the others, if that makes sense. I, it was a situation when I lived in Australia, actually. That was the only time I've experienced. Well, there's a couple other times, but it was a time I experienced and I was with an Australian family for the holidays. And we were talking about the place that I was working at the time, and it was mostly, I guess they're Southeast Asians. And we were just talking about the political climate or whatever. And he was like, yeah, you know, people coming over here and studying and taking jobs. And I said, oh, well, I'm over here studying. He's like, well, you're different. And I was like, oh, okay. But how am I different? Like, I'm doing the same thing that anybody else is doing. But it's coded and it was different because I've received that same here where the way I speak, because I don't sound like, quote unquote, I'm from the hood because I speak the way I speak. And I've gotten this since I was little from especially, you know, white women. It was like, you know, oh, well, you're not like them. And it was like, okay. It's like, I don't know how to, when I was young, I didn't know how to take that. And of course I'm older and it's like, no, I'm just like someone who speaks different from me, or is from another— maybe is from the hood and not from the suburbs, or from the city and not from the, you know, the— whatever it is. Like, we're, we're not a monolith, and a lot of us still experience the same things. And so, you know, as a— I feel like I— and a lot of— I can say that a lot of Black people feel this way, is that we're representing our community.

Mm-hmm.

And so when I go out there, I don't feel like I'm just representing myself, 'cause it's something you learn too. You're growing up, you're not just representing yourself. You're representing all the other Black people who've come before you and who are going to come after you. So I don't want to come into a space and people are not accepting of who I am because then they may not hire the next Black person after me because I just came in and I ruined it all. And it's like, ooh, don't want to hire a Black person like that again. Um, and that's kind of like an unspoken, it's like an unspoken rule.

And that's a lot of responsibility. And I, I remember, um, a friend of mine sharing. So I was making fun of him that he wouldn't jaywalk.

Mm-hmm.

And he would tell me, Myriam, if someone looks like me as a tall, Black, big man, you don't jaywalk because they will say, oh, it's one of those. So yeah, he said something similar that it's. Never about him personally, but it's immediately the generalization. That's a big burden. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know how your friend is, is experiencing that, but you know, for, again, for me, it's just when you're young, it's like, why, why do I have to do that? Like, oh my God, it's so annoying. And then you live so long that way that it's just, it's second nature. And then you don't think about it until someone brings it up and Or, you know, you have, we have groups, we have communities, safe community. I have a safe community of people who I know, right? Um, every single job I've had, I've had a, a small little cohort of, of colleagues who, who get it. I don't have to explain anything. And that's, that's what feels good is that I don't have to explain.

Mm-hmm.

Just share our experiences and we listen to each other and, and then we offer support. Even if that's just listening, maybe I can't maybe do anything about it. You can't do anything about it, but you listening to me is, that feels good.

And then how would this play out in a work-related situation? Because from what I hear, and you mentioned that before, that from an early age you learned to wear the mask, right? And it's something that you even would teach your children. So. What does it mean to wear the mask and how can someone make it easier?

Okay.

To take it off if there was, if there was goodwill. Yeah.

So, so wearing the mask, so the, the first part of your question, as far as wearing the mask, it's, you know, I've mentioned before, like the tone and, you know, like even our hair, um, you know, I have have locs. And just, I mean, just 6 years ago, 2019, is— I don't know if you've heard of the CROWN Act that's creating a respectful and open world for natural hair.

Yes, yes, I read about that. Yeah.

Right. And so, you know, it's— even though that act has been enacted, is in place, you know, there's still those subtleties. There's still those, like, you know, the comments you might get if you switch up your hair, because that's what Black women can do. We You know, I have locs right now, but when I had loose hair, which is, you know, it's unlocked, um, it was curly. I might— it might be braided, it might be curly, I might straighten it, it might be in a ponytail, it might, you know, just all these different things. And so, and I think also it's a generational thing too. I'm, I'm a, I'm a zennial, I'm an older millennial. And so I, I feel like it's been a lot more accepted. It's been accepted a lot more. And there's still that nagging feeling or that nagging thought in your head as far as how you're presenting. And even if it's just one person in the room who doesn't look like you, who might just kind of look at your hair in a certain way, or you just feel the, the energy because you're the only one that has that, you know, that has different hair from the, the majority. You know, it's, it can be that, but it can also be our emotional expression. So having to just tone, tone myself down, maybe not say certain things that I would say around A friend, and not that it would be disrespectful, or I wouldn't think that it would make anyone feel a type of way. But again, it's just, that's just how I speak, and not just how I speak, but how a lot of other people speak. But I have to tone that down. So again, it's not being able to be authentic. And then just the labels, like it's the same behavior, but different labels. So for a non-person of color, you know, it could be— Assertive versus aggressive, or passionate versus emotional, or direct versus difficult. And when those labels are given, it's like, it's coded. And I know what it means. And for me personally, I'm the type of person who I, I don't want to cause, you know, any, any ripples. You know, there's a lot going on with, you know, Black women, especially in America, is like, One of the highest percentages of unemployment right now between, with, with Black American women. And I don't wanna be one of those, those Black American women who are, who are out of work. So the second part of your question in terms of what would that look like in terms of like accepting, is that what you're—

To make it easier because you said—

Make it easier.

You have created circles where you can find support and listening and Right.

As if I didn't have to have those circles. Like, I think even if I worked in a company or a place where everybody looked like me, I would still probably need that one little group of people that I could really connect with. And at the same time, and I've seen this in posts, and I'm like, man, that would be great, is if I worked for a company who looked like me, then I don't have to tone myself down. Because we know it's just like a universe. Then that will be a universal— like, I know that language. And it's not disrespectful. I can be direct and it won't be seen as like, oh, why are you being difficult? It won't be jarring. We speak directly. I'm not a fluff person. That would make it a lot easier. But I mean, of course, that's like, you know, pie in the sky idea. It's— I mean, I've said a long time ago, until we— which I don't know where it ever happened, but until we are all one color, not to say that there won't be any other isms like sexism and, you know, like economic stuff, but But until we are all one color, then there will always be racism. And then of course, as a Black woman, there's racism and sexism. So it's the double, it's the double whammy of it all. So it's kind of hard not to, it's kind of hard to even think about that because the reality is, is that will never happen. And so, you know, and that's, you know, in the beginning when I talked about pivoting, it's just, if something happens, I just gotta pivot. And, you know, in the, there's probably other communities as well that, that say this, but, you know, especially in the Black community, we always say that we, we stay ready so we don't have to get ready. So if something happens, I have something in place to make sure that I'm, I'm good, I'm safe. And it's always like, you have to, you have to stay that way. I can't be like, oh my God, I'm so surprised. Like, this happened to me. You always think in the back of your head that something bad can happen. Something unfortunate could happen in terms of like, you know, me being let go or something like that, or I don't think that I can, I don't think I can be demoted, but, you know, maybe my bonus is not as big or maybe my salary increase is not as big, even though I contributed a lot. And it's just like, you just have to let it go. You just have to move on. I can't raise any, any flags or anything like that. It's gotta, it's gotta keep pushing. 'Cause I have to feel like I'm one of the fortunate ones that's not, again, unemployed like a lot of the other millions of Black, thousands of Black women that are unemployed.

And you're amongst the highest educated.

That's not important anymore in the US. Formal education is not as important. They, they, in America, the goalposts keep, they keep moving the goalposts. So at first it's, it's back in the day, it's like, you don't have the education, you don't have the experience. And then, you know, Black women are among the highest educated and that's not even seen valuable anymore. Now it's about experience. It's about experience. And so, and then, but if you have, experience coupled with the education. Yeah. Okay. That's cool.

And especially if experience, so then what experience? Because if your experience depends on someone else's actions to hire you, to promote you, to put you into the specific job, then it's rather random where education is something that you are in charge of, that you can control.

Right. It's, it, and, and also let me say, it's not just experience, it's also who you know.

Exactly.

And where you, and where you fit in. So like, in a previous experience, I had a moment where I named respectfully and directly that advancement was being driven more by tenure and proximity rather than demonstrated skill and expertise and background. And that conversation didn't change the system. And that's, you know, that's common in a lot of different places. But it gave me clarity. It reminded me again of where I stand. And because my honesty is not going to change the outcome, but it changed my strategy. And so I can't dwell on, well, this person, you know, is getting what they want because they've been here for 20 years or whatever. And even though I'm contributing, my stuff is being seen, it's like, oh my God, Taryn, you've really— Change the system and you really, you're contributing this thing and I ask for something and then I don't get it. Or even like, I don't get an alternative. I have to come up with the alternative. It's like, okay, that's fine. Let me figure it out. Um, as I heard maybe in a show or something, everything is figureoutable. So I need to, I need to figure it out because I can't just sit and dwell on the fact that somebody else or some other people are getting promoted.

Mm-hmm.

And when I ask for things, because a saying is closed mouths don't get fed. So if I ask for something, if I ask you, what can I do to be put in a position, you know, to be moved up a little bit more? Or, you know, what does this look like for me? Or what can I do? If I give— I don't come to you with just a problem. I'm coming to you with also a solution.

Mm-hmm.

And if that solution doesn't work and I come with another one and that one doesn't work, then it's me to say, it's my turn to say, Okay, so what do you see then? Because maybe our visions don't align, and that's fine. So what is your vision? But then if you can't explain that to me, then it's like another roadblock. And it's like, okay, I got to figure something else out.

Hmm.

So, you know, again, going back to like the background, the education, the experiences, you know, some, again, the goalposts are often moved. It's like, well, you haven't been here that long, even though you've contributed a lot. You don't know as many people, even though I wasn't put into those rooms to meet those people. So again, you know, it's just, it's figuring it out, figuring out a different angle.

And now I, I see the bigger picture of the moving goalposts that you mentioned, and it sounds as if it all boils down to the one thing that you cannot change, which is then the color of your skin or your cultural background, or if, if you're tried at all.

Yeah. I mean, and that's something I would never want to change either. Like, I, you know, I'm just gonna say Black people are dope. So I would never want to, I would never not want to be Black.

Oh, I hope I didn't—

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no, no. I think, you know, I don't want my kids to experience the same challenges. Everybody's gonna have challenge regardless. And I don't want my kids to experience the challenges that I and, you know, my parents and grandparents and great-grandparents and all, and so on and so forth. I don't want it to be the same recurring challenges over and over and over again. And so I think it's up to— I think this generation, millennials going all the way down to Gen Z, I think they're figuring things out and it looks different. And yeah, I think things are getting better, not because the systems, because we're still operating somewhat within a similar system. But I think we're— again, we're just figuring things out and we're making things better. Speaking up, I think that's also entrepreneurship. Black people are really great with coming up with an idea and pushing it forward and making money off of that. I guess the hustle. And then leaving America. Like, it's like, yes, this is home. And generations, generations back, even in my family, But it's like, you know what, there, there's other places to call home. Home is where, you know, I'm loved and I'm appreciated and I'm respected. It doesn't have to necessarily be the place that I was born. So I think a lot of Black people in general are figuring it out and doing things a little bit differently.

Yeah. And I can imagine that before you have to bend yourself and be someone and fit into a system that wasn't designed for you. Why not create your own system? Right?

Exactly.

Uh, yeah. And then entrepreneurship where you are in charge.

Yeah.

Define how you wanna show up, then it makes total sense.

Right.

And from what you describe, it almost sounds as if this edge of unprofessionalism that I claim, oh, we have to, we have to be more unprofessional in the sense of Showing emotions, not fitting into the box, asking questions, admitting that we don't know. So for me, these are all actions of air quotes, unprofessionalism.

Mm-hmm.

Because they escape the standard definition of, oh, we have to appear polished and knowledgeable and well-educated and on top of our things.

Right.

And When I listen to you, I wonder whether this is a very white privileged thing to say, because I, if you're, if you're already facing these microaggressions on your everyday work life, then to do the extra step and admitting that you don't know, mm-hmm, or the extra step of being a little bit more Authentic, mm-hmm, then might become a real risk.

Yeah. I, I'll speak personally. I think that there are ways, again, I think that there are ways that I show up authentically, and I think that's just, it's just adapting. I don't think it's necessarily being fake. It's just we're adapting. Like we know what the landscape is, we know how we need to move. You know, it's like literally there's turning on a light switch and turning it back off. And yeah, sometimes it can be exhausting, but it's just, you know, it's like, it's, it's second nature in a way. Yeah. I, I, you know, some of the behaviors I had to learn was like silence as safety, or like you said, overpreparation, you know? So I'm like, you know, I have all these degrees, I have all this experience. And I was like, the next thing that I got to do is know a ton of people, um, or know the right people, wherever those people are. Politeness over clarity. You know, I talked about my tone. Um, and so sometimes it's maybe being a little bit more bubbly or chipper. Sometimes it's maybe me putting on my counseling hat because whereas I feel like I'm forced to overexplain, when other people do that, it's like, oh, okay. And then when I do that, it's, that's that, you know, you, it's like a misunderstanding. And so it's like, okay, let me, let me put on my counseling hat and say, so you feel this way.

Yeah.

You know, this is what I hear you saying. And then it's like, they need to be seen first before I can be seen. So it's like, you first, then now let's talk about what I'm trying to say, but let's maybe make sure I don't overexplain though. And it's swallowing discomfort. You know, if I'm uncomfortable, you know, whatever, I have to get over it. You know, again, it's just, it's just, again, another mask that I wear, but it is second nature. It's flipping a switch. I get off of work, I can flip the switch right back off. You know, going on this break would be lovely because I get to turn off the switch for a while and be in spaces that, you know, I can just keep me, myself fully, like, there, as opposed to having to make sure I watch my tone, make sure I'm a little bit bubbly, make sure I don't overexplain, make sure I don't curse. Can't curse. It's perceived differently when a Black person curses. So yeah, those type of things.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're tricky ones. And I, I love to curse and it's very, very rare that I curse on the podcast and I'm waiting for the moment that I just feel confident enough or free enough to just speak as I would normally speak.

Right.

Um, yeah.

But do you feel that way? Have you ever felt, I mean, I don't know if you've ever worked amongst colleagues, like a ton of people and it's like, was there ever any exchange and it's just like casually just throwing out?

Totally. All the time.

Yeah. And then nobody stops. There's no record scratch. It's just, you know, it's— yeah. And I've experienced that. It's a record scratch. And it's not like I'm saying it loudly. It's just like, man, like, like that, that shit was crazy. And it's like, and you just feel like a little energy shift and it's like, ooh, you know?

What the fuck?

Yeah. I don't— wow. That's the whole doozy. I don't even, I don't even drop the F one. It's just, it's like, yeah, it's, you know, and maybe, and sometimes I wonder if it's because again, my My— I think my voice register is a little bit deeper. And so again, I'm usually surrounded by more bubbly, you know, they speak up, you know, like, like, like a crescendo. It's like— and I speak more down. And so it's— I don't know, it just, it just seems like it feels like it's perceived differently.

Mm-hmm.

And the conversation doesn't continue to just flow. Like I just said, and or whatever.

It's And I wonder whether it's actually the other way around. So I spoke to a voice coach, um, that I would interview on the, uh, on the show on voice masking.

Hmm.

Because I realized that many trainers, as soon as they get into the training field, or even sometimes I have it on the podcast, people suddenly get the podcast voice or they get the trainer voice. Now we do this and we do, as you, as you just, um, explained before to explain bubbly. And I ask her on a different topic what we can do about our voice to actually train to stop having this teaching voice. And what she said, well, it's voice masking and it's usually, uh, masking insecurity. Hmm. So when we are changing our voice, it's Very often out of insecurity to pretend we are more confident that we, uh, than we actually feel. Um, and then I wonder whether you, with your grounded, deep voice, actually this, you know, your shit, you, you speak because you're prepared, you're overprepared.

Mm-hmm.

And then nobody is used to actually a grounded, confident voice. Because everyone has, um, has adjusted to the, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's the, yeah.

And I'm, I'm just trying to even think back to like the people that I've heard present and yeah. And it's not to say that I'm the only one, of course, with my register, like with my voice. And, you know, I think it, I think it's nuanced. I think it's, it's, you know, not just the voice, it's the, the presentation. You know, again, like my hair, you know, I'm a, you know, there's a whole, you know, and especially in America, it's not just race. It's also, um, you know, I'm a, I'm a darker-skinned Black woman as opposed to a light-skinned Black woman. Yeah, it's, it's a lot. And again, like I said too, is who you know, like who can endorse you, who stands behind you, who promotes you, who puts you in the room with the people who can say, yes, you need to go to this person's thing.

Mm-hmm.

Or you need to listen to this person. And I don't want it to sound like I'm speaking in like, it's like it's all or nothing. Like, I had a supervisor previously. She is a white woman. She's my first white woman supervisor, I think. And I've heard, I've heard things about working for white women and I was nervous, but she was one of the best supervisors I've ever had, actually. I still keep, We still keep in touch with each other. She works somewhere else, and she was awesome. And I liked that she, when I said something, even if she didn't understand it, she didn't go, what? She didn't explain it like, well, maybe it's this, or maybe, you know, she didn't do any of that. It was just like, oh, really? Wow. Like, like, where have you— she asked questions like, where did you experience that? I'm sorry you felt— and then I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm sorry you experienced that. And, you know, yeah, she just, And she, man, she was, she was really great. I mean, even to this day, it's like, you know, she, and she, she was the type of person who promoted me in spaces that I wasn't, when I wasn't there, she would always talk about how great I was. She would say it in my face and she would say it when I wasn't even around. And it's still like, and even after she left, I would say for 6 months to a year, everybody brought that up. They would be like, man, you know, so-and-so, yeah, she talked about how great you were. And like, I'm just excited to work with you. And it's like, that's that's the kind of like the people that I need. And not to, you know, like she didn't lie. She was very, she was so about competence and she wanted her team to be great. Like, I want them, I want us to excel and be great in our region. And because our, you know, our places is all over the world. And so, and I love that about her. And she asked me like, what do you want to do? What uplifts you? What gives you life? Like she just, it was, and she would be the first one to say, I'm not really a touchy-feely person. And I'm like, really? But you're like, what gives you life? And how are you feeling? And you ask me all these great questions. And I'm like, that's interesting that you think that about yourself. So yeah, I mean, I just wanted to say that too because— and there are other people around that don't look like me that uplift me. And it's not enough, unfortunately. But you take the wins. You take them where you can get them. And don't complain about it. You just take them.

Yeah. What do you think is the lost potential? What could become possible if we didn't have these differentiations, if we didn't have the gap in perception of what professional, professional is between races? Because it sounds as if, as a Black woman, you have to be overly performative and professional.

Mm-hmm.

Even compared to a white American woman who, who also needs to put on the professional mask.

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

And you have to, your mask needs to even be bigger.

Mm-hmm.

By, um, so what do you think would be possible if you put that down?

I mean, I, I think it just depends on the context if we're, 'cause the space that I work, like even like the space that I work now is Like, I don't report to this, to my office. I work for a region. And so it, you know, so the, the conversations that I have, not to say that I don't do work for them, but the conversations that I have in my own office, as opposed to the conversations that maybe I have like on my team or when I'm talking about like strategy and work-specific things, is very different, but it's— I'll say this. I can tell who has navigated spaces, or even, this is hard to say, people who, because I don't like when people say I have a Black friend, but people who have been around, and it doesn't have to just be Black. It could be Asian or Latino, whatever. But specifically, I'll just speak for me, people who have been in spaces, worked in spaces, whatever that looks like. around people who look like me. And I think that's, that's the most important thing. I have a, I have a friend who doesn't look like me, who isn't about my culture. We're completely different from each other. And she does her work to understand. And she'll, and if she asks a question, she's apologizing too. And I'm like, it's okay. We're friends. Like, you know, it's cool. Like, it's fine if you're getting a little bit of education from me about the Black experience, and then you're getting a little bit edgy, you know, from other places. But it's like she's trying and she's trying to understand and she's not just relying on me as the source. And that's also, I think, sometimes the discomfort in working in spaces where there's majority, because I can tell the people who actually have like close Black friends, not to say you have to have close Black friends, or just people who have navigated spaces with Black people.

Mm-hmm.

And they, and they get it. 'Cause, you know, I've had to explain to somebody that I don't have to figure out how to navigate a white space. I was trained early on to do that. And so sometimes it just seems a little unfair that I have to know how to operate in a majority space, but nobody has to figure out how to operate around people who look like me or ask a question as opposed to assuming somebody, something. I had somebody mimic me one time. Um, I let my guard one down one time.

Mm-hmm.

It was a little, I felt a little too free, I guess. And I spoke the way I spoke. And then a person, and he wasn't like, he was mocking me, but he wasn't doing it like in a, you know, I'm trying to be mean. He wasn't doing it that way. And I know that. And I was thinking in my head, is that how you see me? Is that how you think I talk all the time? And so again, it made me, oh, I let my mask slip a little bit. I shouldn't have done that. And so it was like, I gotta put it back on. And so now this, this person that I've, I see every now and then, I come in a different way. 'Cause I thought that we were cool like that and we were learning each other. But then when he did it in front of everybody, and it's literally like a record scratch too, people looked at me, especially one of my Black colleagues. She looked at me like, And I was like, okay, let me not do, let me not, let me put the mask back on. Why did I let it slip? So, I mean, I think, you know, this, this is so nuanced in terms of, because it's, you know, unfortunately it's not a black or white issue in terms of, you know, like not having to wear a mask or, or understanding other people's identities because, you know, it's, it's again, is this, and there's neurodivergence. And that looks different in Black women than it does in maybe other people. And, and not to say this is specific, like Black women here and everybody else is there, but it, you know, it could be, you know, it could be an Asian person, whatever it is. But specifically, I'll do, you know, just, you know, neurodivergence or mental health disorders or, or any of that. There's so many different layers to that. You don't know what somebody's going through. And, and again, you know, the conversation or the message is that it doesn't matter what you're going through. Like, I've learned this early on, as I'm sure a lot of Black people did. It doesn't matter what you're going through. You come to the, you come to work. Mm-hmm. To work and you leave all that stuff at home. But I don't, I don't hear that sometimes from a lot of other people. They can go through a divorce and I know about their divorce. That something happened at their kid's school and I know about something happened at their kid's school. Like it's, they can just, they can say that freely and it's just, I don't know what they're feeling. I'm not going to pretend to know what they're feeling. But what I will feel is if I share that is that, ooh, I let them in too much because I feel like that might be used against me. Like, oh, maybe it's because she's going through a divorce. Maybe it's because they're, you know, like, or just whatever is going on. If I had something going on, it's like, oh, maybe it's because she's going through this. Again, we have to, we have to be 10 times better to get half as much. So I can't share that stuff. Gotta keep the mask on.

Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, no problem.

I mean, yeah, it makes me feel very sad because I, it makes me realize how the idea and the idealism I have of Having better relationships at work and to have this kind of unprofessional, air quotes, angle of sharing how we are, because that's what creates connection. That's where we can jump in and support each other. That's where we can deliver better work because we have compassion for each other. And if we know that someone is going through a divorce, then of course we'll Have their back because it might be us another time. And to see that the impact of racism for that, um, as a big obstacle, um, to be more unprofessional at work, me to be more human at work.

Mm-hmm.

I somehow knew it, of course, because yes, it's still, I think, being a white European German, I was not aware of that. Um, So I'm very grateful that you share this.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm sorry.

Yeah. Thank you for that. I mean, I, I, um, you know, I mentioned before I lived in Australia and maybe sometimes I think maybe that's what it'll take for me to feel like free. I've never felt more free until I lived in Australia because, because then I was around a whole, I lived in Brisbane and it was just a whole bunch of people from other countries and nobody was like, I mean, everybody's, you know, has questions, but not just about me, about each other. Because like, I, I had a Swedish friend, I had a, you know, I had a Vietnamese friend, I had a Nigerian friend, Kenyan, got like all these people from different countries. So they didn't— so it was too many people around us to just be focusing on me, which was great. It's like, great, I'm not the center of attention. Not to say that I am here. I'm just saying that we're all curious about each other because no one is the same. Or even Australians, you know, they were just curious. Yeah. But very inviting. It was a very inviting— when we traveled, my family and I traveled to Portugal, uh, in July, and everybody just seemed curious. But it wasn't like— it just, it just felt different. The air felt different.

Yeah.

Because it's just everybody is there and I, I already met somebody like you and cool, you know? So it's like you're not put on display or anything. Yes.

Baggage.

Yeah. Yeah.

I, yeah. And I wonder whether, so I, I feel very self-conscious often because I don't know, okay, what is an appropriate question to ask? Can I ask that question? I should know. We had the conversation in the exploration call where I admitted I'm so afraid to ask an inappropriate question, right? Or to use the wrong words.

Mm-hmm.

And I think to just, yeah, feel safe enough that it's, it's good to ask questions. It's good to be curious because I think as long as we are curious, we, we don't judge and we are not.

That's how we learn.

Yeah. Yeah. And to get a little bit of that stigma away that question. Yeah. Question. We need more questions. We need more curiosity. We need more admitting that there is ignorance. Um, because if, if we don't admit it, that we cannot learn.

Yeah. Yeah. I, um, you know, and in those spaces, even speaking back to when I lived overseas, it's, I got those questions that I can't speak for others, but for me weren't offensive. I mean, I even got a question from one of my friends who was from, I think it was, I can't remember, it was Ghana or South Africa or something. And he asked me about things that he saw Black people do on TV. And it was like, and I thought it was a little funny because I'm like, okay, but you know what? It's the same. Like we, it's controlled what we see in other places of the world. So I don't see a lot of what happens in, in other parts of the world, um, unless I dig and find it. Like it's not shown to me, you know, I have to like look for it or follow somebody who lives in another country or whatever. And so when people ask those questions, I don't, for me, it's not offensive because You don't live my life and you're not a Black American. So you ask the question, as long as it's not in a, you know, like, ugh, do people really do that? You know, as long as it's not something like that. If it's just like, so I heard this, or I saw this, like, is that true? Or is, you know, like, and I'd be like, oh, you know, and you know, it's that curiosity tone. It's that like, I'm really curious. I really don't know. And it's always like, I'm fine. Like even the N-word, it's like, do Black people really go around saying that? And it's just. You know, it's having to make sure that, because again, I feel like I'm representing for Black people because a lot of the people that I met in Australia never met a Black American. So I was their first. So I was like, ooh, that's a lot of pressure. And so it was like letting them know, like reminding them that we're not a monolith and that, you know, you are meeting me, but if you meet another Black person, it can be completely different. And that person, him or or she is just as capable, just as smart, just as fabulous. Whatever you think of me, they're going to be the same, even if they come from another part of the country. They don't have as many degrees as I do. It doesn't matter. We are all— they have that term Black excellence, and it doesn't matter. It's like we excel in so many different things. And so we're always trying to put our best foot forward. And so it's just teaching people about me, but it's also me in exchange, learning about their culture. I don't, you know, just because my ancestors from way back in the day came from, from West Africa, that doesn't mean I know all about the things. So I'm asking about their culture as well. And I, you know, that, that exchange helps. And I think that it helps too, which is what they try to do in corporate America is they try to do these activities or things where it's like, oh, let's all get to know each other. But a lot of times it, It's important who's, who's behind the scene creating these activities, who's, and who's facilitating these activities. Like, and that's across the board anywhere, even if it's an ad campaign or whatever it is, is who was, who was in the room to say that this was okay? That's important. And yeah. And then all, even after that, it's like, are really, are people really interested or are they gonna gravitate to what is familiar? Are they going to try to step outside their comfort zone and be like, you know, even though I don't really speak to that person, um, you know, let me talk to the person. Let me, let me see what's going on. Maybe we have something in common. So it's, it's, I, I will say that it is getting a good, you know, somewhat better, especially with Gen Z. Like they're just, yeah, they're, they're not tolerating any stuff, which I think is great. So I hope that, you know, in the future, corporate America or whatever working spaces in general will look a lot different from You know, how it looked yesterday and how it looks today.

Mm-hmm.

Because we're curious.

Thank you. And a question with which I always close.

Yeah.

What's an unprofessional thing that you would still advise others to do?

Don't wait for permission to explore what aligns with who you are and your vision. That's all I'll say. I'm not gonna wait for permission.

Love it. Thank you so much, June.

Thank you. I appreciate, appreciate you having me.

Yeah, me too. And for allowing me all my, my questions and the exploration.

Yes, absolutely. I appreciate you being curious and staying curious.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.