009 - Creating a Return on Humanity (When ROI Isn't Enough) with Philippa White

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

The environment at a business school is, of course, teaching the very kind of businessy competencies. And so it's very competitive. And there was a time where we were asked to chant, what is the main goal of business? And then everyone had to chant, to make money.

Really?

And It was at that moment that I thought, oh my God, if this is what being in business is all about, I don't know if I'm wanting to be a part of business.

Philippa, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

I'm very excited. I came across your book, Return on Humanity. and thought Philippa needs to come on the show.

Well, I'm honored. That's, I mean, that's huge. So thank you.

And I start with an invitation for a little anecdote. When was a time that unprofessional, being unprofessional for you has been maybe the best thing you could have done?

So I love this question because I actually feel that this way of seeing the world Has perhaps been my guide. I know it's perhaps a little bit cliché to say, you know, I'm a black sheep or I was a bit of a black sheep, but I genuinely was, particularly when I studied business. So I went to business school, you know, it was like the best business school in Canada and very quite difficult to get in. And I would say 98% of the people that came out of the business school went to the McKinseys and Bains and, you know, Anderson Consulting at the time, which I think then turned into Accenture, but you can kind of imagine the trajectory of many of the people that studied there and their dream of coming out of it. And so, and for anyone who studied business who's listening to this, you know, the environment at a business school is of course teaching the very kind of businessy competencies. And so it's very competitive. And there was a time where we were asked to chant, what is the main goal of business? And then everyone had to chant, to make money.

Really?

And it was at that moment that I thought, oh my God, if this is what being in business is all about, I don't know if I'm wanting to be a part of business. And, you know, there was another time where I was sitting beside a colleague and I had actually come from studying in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is where I grew up, but this business school is in Ontario and Winnipeg. And I remember sitting beside my colleague when I was studying with her and we were listening to the teacher or the professor, sorry. And I would get lost. And then, you know, you're writing with a pen on this paper, just trying to capture your notes. And I'm like, oh my God, I missed it. And she's like, no, no, no, here, take, you know, have a look at my notes. And you sort of, okay. And that was what I was used to. Fast forward to then when I was at business school, we were now on computers. We had Wi-Fi key cards in our computers and we were, this was a management science class. And oh my God, it was totally over my head. I was just like, oh my God, I'm so totally lost. And I remember looking over at my table buddy and saying, oh my goodness, I'm lost. And instead of turning the computer towards me so I could see what the notes were, She turned the computer so I couldn't, I saw the back of the computer and that made me really reflect because we were taught on a bell curve. You know, you were taught about competition and, and I just started realizing my unprofessional black sheep way of thinking was, but isn't it about collaboration?

Mm-hmm.

Aren't we better together? isn't it better if we kind of work together? And it might sound sort of, oh, that's so pathetic, but it actually isn't because the more and more that I realized the people that I gravitated towards, the competencies that I really leaned into, that was actually, that ended up being my strength. And that's actually now what I do for my work. So, but I would just say that my unprofessionalism was going against the grain of what these big business schools are teaching people. And Thankfully, I've kind of thrived as a result, and I'm so happy that I stayed true to who I am, but it was definitely the black sheep way of doing things, certainly at that time anyway.

Thank you. And I, your story brought up a lot of memories of my own studies and yeah, having, having experienced also both reactions of fellow students and it brought up I recently read an, an interview with the global managing partner of McKinsey.

Yeah.

Who said that we are not a business, we are a profession. We want to be in service of our clients. And I found this distinction very interesting and I'm, And I have a hunch that 20 years ago they wouldn't have said that.

I'm actually just listening, so I'm going to pick on that just a little bit. So they are in the profession for serving their clients. I would actually push a little bit further and say, are businesses, are their main focus Looking after their clients and therefore where the money comes?

Mm-hmm.

Or should we focus on our people? Because then the happier the people are that work wherever you're working and feel that connection to wherever they're working and feel like it connects with them, that they're looked after, Then by sort of transitive property, by definition, then the clients are served in an incredible way.

Yes.

And it sounds sort of pedantic, but it's not because when people are just focused on, well, you need to serve our client, you need to make sure that we're always available, you need to make— if that is how people feel that that's all they're there for, they're not going to be completely bought into where they're working. And, uh, and it's interesting, when I wrote my book, there were some interesting conversations that I had with people where they said, our objective is our clients are our people. And when we actually flip things around like that and truly are people first, and that we need to make sure that we look after our people to ensure that we are serving our clients in the best possible way, but people first, you have a much better experience as a client because people feel so cared for and involved. And then that just passes over to clients.

Yeah.

And so it's interesting, you know, just even talking to people from many of these consulting firms, you know, even, you know, ones who are selling soft skills, we're, you know, the soft skills professionals and we're better than anyone else and we're just in this sort You know, it's like, hold on a second. Like, let's, you know, it's about embodying, I guess, what, what it is that, so anyway, just listening to that because it's, it's, yeah.

And then that's true. Are we in service of our client or are we in service of society and the, the bigger, the bigger, like the stakeholders, right?

So everyone who's involved. And you feel a difference and it's so interesting because I'm gonna give an example that is not necessarily business focused, but it is sort of. So the school that my children, or one of my daughters goes to, it's a Waldorf school for anyone who's listening. I don't know if you know much about the pedagogy, but it's, you know, it's a great, until a certain age, it's a really great way of type of learning. Anyway, the school is lovely and I'm just, I am in love with it. And the person who has been kind of the do-it-all person. So he's at the door welcoming the kids, but he also helps paint. He also, he's just sort of, he does it, he sort of fixes things. And anyway, he's been there for 17 years and literally all the families, the children, everyone loves Eduardo. I mean, he, he is an extraordinary, he knows the name of every child. He knows the name of every parent. Anyway, I went to a leaving party for a friend of mine who's who's moving away, and she invited Eduardo, and he doesn't have a car, and so I offered to drive him. And so we were in the car, and we were just chatting, and it was so interesting listening to him because he said, "You know, of course I need the job because I need the money, and you know it's it's really helpful for my family. But I'm I'm not in this for the for the money at all. I've had a lot of sort of jobs where you get carte de sinada, so you have like a a work card and everything like that, and it's all very sort of." proper and in the economy that we're in here in Brazil, you know, there's just so much poverty and a lot of people who are unable to get jobs like that. And so, you know, he's very grateful and, but he said, you know, I've had so many different jobs, but this job is so important to me because it has literally, it's, it's changed my life. I feel a part of the families. I feel a part of the school. Anyway, the reason why everyone loves him is because he feels so cared for and it works both ways. And so we feel in love with the school. We feel that, you know, the moment you come in, oh, you know, Dona Filippa, how are you? Oh, it's so great to see you. Look at you. You're wearing that today. I mean, that's every single day. And he is there. He's sort of smile on his face. He travels huge distance on a bicycle to get to work every day, but he's there on time. He's never sick. He's always there. And I just think that's what you want. You, you need to have this sort of shared purpose, this shared excitement, this shared Um, belief in whatever it is that you're doing. And if the people who are working for you have that shared purpose, that shared love, it, it's infectious.

Yeah. And it's something that you cannot enforce.

No.

It's something that has to grow intrinsically. So it's not through the bonus, it's not through the paycheck. And I guess that's where the magic happens, that it has—

That is where the money is.

It has to be real. And I would like to go back to the story you shared of this kind of, I imagine the path you went where you realized, okay, you don't want to walk this kind of paved road of competition and business is about making money. What has changed then for you in your trajectory? Maybe also compared to the lady who was sitting next to you turning her screen away. What made that possible?

So that's a really good question. And I don't know what she is doing now. I do know that she went into business consulting and I don't know what, I don't know what she's doing now, but it's, it's very interesting that you ask that because many of the people that I know who did go down that route, as many of us probably know, I mean, we're, I'm, 47. So I know many people who have made a lot of money going into, you know, the consulting world, investment banking world, you know, but the people that I know that did go down that route are not doing it anymore. Actually, if I think about the close friends that I know that have done that, you know, and they were not treated well. Some have lawsuits against the companies that they've been working for. Some are looking desperately for an exit strategy to sort of get away. They've sort of got their side hustle to try and find a way that they can kind of do something else. I did a different, I, my role, my route was very, very different. So I did not have the $100,000 signing bonus. I went into advertising in London as a junior, whatever you are when you start executive. So, I mean, I literally made hardly any money, but I loved what I did for the short amount of time that I worked in advertising.

Yeah.

I made some extraordinary contacts that have remained. I'm a people collector. I love collecting people and I have just collected some of the most extraordinary people, you know, from people who run big agencies or, you know, owners of agencies or whatever it might be to just friends in the sort of in that world. So I love sort of collecting people and I've met incredible people along the way. And my objective was never about making a whole lot of money. So when I went into advertising, I went into it because I loved the creative world. I was quite curious. I found it very creative and just fascinating. But quite quickly, I came up with the idea of what I do, and I, it became my mission to make that possible. And again, I am not in this to make a whole lot of money by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel So lucky because now many people reach out to me and just say, gosh, so I just find you sort of the way that you set up your life, like so interesting. And the fact that you're in Brazil, but your business is in England and the fact that you're sort of doing what you love, like what advice can you give me? Like, I would just love to have that kind of business. And I was like, well, that's not really how it works. Like, find out whatever it is that makes you tick and then make it happen. And it just sort of worked out that But I just feel, I've, I think I've always believed in living life with intention.

Hmm.

And I feel very lucky that quite early on I understood, even though it wasn't called this at that time, but I understood what purpose was. I understood what it was about feeling excited about something that you, that you do, and you're not just in whatever it is that you do for the money or for the, I don't know, for the, job title or for whatever it is that culture kind of puts their prestige or whatever it might be. So I just have never been like that. And so, you know, I've never been into wearing designer clothes because I don't really care about the— I don't care about brands. I don't care about, you know, the type of car I'm driving. So I'm driving around and everyone— so, but I think a lot of that comes down to your sense of self, what is important to you. your values, what makes you tick, what is it that makes you happy. And of course, I mean, I'm not suggesting that I'm always happy, but I do feel that when you live life with an element of intention and the decisions that you make are linked up to truly what it is that makes you tick, the direction of your life goes in a different direction.

Yeah. And it's interesting, I had, um, A conversation with Jillian about permission and how important it is to learn to give ourselves permission. Beautiful. Totally. And I think the, she wrote a book, The 10 Permissions, how very often we try to fulfill someone else's expectations. And I think for me, it only started Recently in my early 40s. So I was 40 when I realized that I actually find women more interesting than men.

And now getting it. Great.

Yes. And started to really follow my own interest with my business.

How liberating.

And, um, I think it's difficult, especially for women, to find this inner voice and then to To really—

or for men. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. And maybe, but I just, I feel for anyone that's stuck in a sense of a certain culture. So a family culture, expectations, you know, many men are stuck in this way of thinking that, you know, I need to be a certain provider. I need to make a decision based on, you know, you know, many women sort of feel I don't know, I must marry someone who has X amount of money and then I, you know, I'm going to look after the children and then I need to, you know, you sort of, I need to get married and I need to, and that's great for people who want that. So there's no judgment at all on that. But I think again, it comes down to, I love it, permission to do things differently and intention and understanding, but that requires a certain element of reflection and a certain element of self-awareness that comes from that reflection. And I don't know if society, day-to-day life allows enough work culture, allows enough of that reflection for people to really reflect, like to really understand themselves.

No.

The dangerous thing is the more we're on this treadmill, the less reflection, the less we live our lives with intention, the more likely it is that we're going to be sort of shoehorned into a position or a a job or a career that doesn't make us happy. And then that then breeds leaders who are not happy. And then that creates teams that are not psychologically safe, that are not happy, that are sort of scared because their leader is not happy and therefore lashing out. And he's not, or she's not really happy in the position that they're in. And it's a little bit of a vicious circle. And I think the more that we can kind of allow that space for people to reflect, the more likely it is that they might then say, this isn't for me, which actually that's great if it's not for them because you do not want people in roles that are not for them in your company.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah. Because usually the leaders who are dismissing their teams or diminishing are usually those who struggle with Their own self-compassion or confidence. Yeah. So if we don't feel confident about ourselves, every, every question will feel like an attack. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's really interesting too. And I talk about this in my book, you know, the power of space and the power of vulnerability. And so for people to say, I don't know. Actually, I don't know the answer to this. Now, I could be the CEO of the company. I could be the leader of that division. But of course, you're not gonna know everything. It's impossible to know everything. And the power of being able to say, I don't know, and to show that vulnerability, but then to allow that space for people below you to step into it.

Hmm.

But again, it requires an element of confidence. And, you know, being able to say, I don't know, is hard for a lot of, you know, experts in certain areas. But actually, it's the most powerful thing that we can do sometimes. One, for ourselves, also for our teams, because again, the amount of knowledge that you can get from people from different levels, backgrounds, divisions, it just makes you stronger. We know that for about diverse teams.

Yeah.

But again, it requires that happiness within ourselves to be able to do that.

Yeah. And I somewhat just the word knowledge did something to me because I have the impression that especially today where knowledge has never been cheaper and more accessible.

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. So I have the impression that it's even less about the knowledge than about the lived expertise or experience. So it's, I don't have experience with that. So I cannot see a solution. I cannot see an answer. Yes, of course we can all Google it.

Yeah.

But that, it's not that kind of knowledge I think that is required nowadays for the problems leaders have to solve.

Totally. Oh my God, I love that you said that. It's so, we've just finished a program with one of our clients, a Danish company. And we did, you know, this immersive cohort group leadership program and it's quite intensive. It runs for about 6 weeks, but they really have to come together and solve this issue together. And the, I just read, 'cause we were just putting together the impact report for them and I was just reading some of the takeaways and it was just so interesting having so many of the, like the quotes that we, that come from sort of the feedback and the program requires some sort of, so we capture this thinking along the way. And every single time people say, God, you know, you can, you can talk about the importance of coming together and collaborating with other people. You can, you can keep saying it, but until you actually do it, and until I actually know what it feels like to call in someone from another department to solve this problem and then to get to know them and then to actually be like, oh my goodness, I need to call on that person more often until you actually do it.

Mm-hmm.

You don't understand why it's so important. And it seems like such a little thing, but it's not because you can do PowerPoint presentations and tell people the importance of being empathetic or the importance of being culturally intelligent. But you have to actually go through the process of having to win over someone's trust from a completely different culture to get something done, to actually understand the importance of, oh wow, if I just go in like a bull in a china shop and just tell these people what needs to happen, that doesn't actually go down very well. People don't really like it very much.

Yeah.

Actually, I think it's better if I talk nicely and make friends.

Yeah.

And then we could kind of get that trust and we're probably gonna be a little bit more, you know, successful in what we wanna do. But you have to, you have to try that, which is why much of what's happening in the world right now, led by a certain individual from a certain country, is literally crazy because that person has lived in a bubble and has always just sort of got his way doing whatever he wants, sort of however he wants to do it without actually thinking about, wait, that's not actually how this works. Like you need to, you need to be, you know, empathetic and diplomatic and talk to people and understand.

And yeah. And then I think it's, that's a danger if this is, uh, the role modeling, if we see that it's the leaders of this world, that's how they communicate and operate. How many, and I think that's what, what we observe, that the tone is rougher, that communication is more brutal.

Totally.

Patience is dropping, um, and fear is increasing.

Totally.

So I would like to learn more about your thought process of the, it is a provocative title, Return on Humanity. As opposed to the return on investment.

Investment.

And especially for you coming from a business school, where did this provocation come from? And I would assume that it's not only the title, but that there are some parallels that you can indeed measure the return on humanity.

Yes. Or on being more human and tapping into these human assets.

Yeah.

I mean, the, it came, I would say the inkling of where this thinking came from, came from essentially those initial experiences back at business school where I started sort of seeing that things were done differently. Of course, I had no idea I would write a book. I had no idea that that would be the name, and I had no idea I would set up the company that I set up, you know, 25 years later. But the seeds were planted then, and that's when I started really seeing that You know, the world is not quite how I sort of imagine it. My uncle was also an important person in this kind of journey. He was really involved in the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa. I always looked up to him. He was, he and my aunt, his wife, were always just incredibly inspirational to me. And I just, having grown up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, where everything just seemed to be fine and sort of flowers and rainbows. Having the experience, understanding life in a place like South Africa under an apartheid regime and the challenges involved in fighting against something that you in your bones believe is not right. For me, understanding what that purpose was, was quite inspirational. Anyway, when Nelson Mandela came out of prison and started the negotiations with the apartheid government, my uncle was his doctor and he was the person who shadowed him basically as he went around with his negotiations with the apartheid government because they needed to ensure that he was safe and that, you know, if anything happened to him, a civil war would break out. So my uncle had this connection with Nelson Mandela and I also, you know, I just found that so inspiring. And when I reflected on, you know, when I reflected on my uncle and why someone like Nelson Mandela, you know, why they were friends, why they were close, I realized that, you know, the reason why my uncle was sort of this really purpose-driven, amazingly inspirational person was because he could have lived life in South Africa as sort of a white South African sort of, that's your problem, this is my world separation, but he didn't. So he bridged borders and he really was curious and he had this fascination with sort of possibility and change. And the reason why he had that was because he bridged these different worlds. So he made a point of understanding different people. And when I went to his funeral, because he passed away, when I went to his funeral and a couple of people stood up and, you know, people from— they weren't on the roster to speak, but, you know, you had someone from a shantytown and you had someone from, you know, someone who was in jail and Neil was their really good friend and they were in a Black jail and he went from, you know, a white part of town and risked his life to go to this Black jail to you know, pass messages that were happening on the outside to this woman. And she said, like, he was my friend. He was my really good friend. And he risked his life to help me while I was in jail, you know, fighting against the regime. And I started reflecting on, gosh, it's so important to understand different worlds. It's so important to bridge these divides. It's so important to be kind. It's so important to understand the only way that we can be empathetic is if we actually, really understand what life is like for someone else. And the more that you do that, the better life is for all of us as individuals, but also it's better for business because then if you start thinking it from a business point of view, my working relationships are better. I feel like I can trust people. I feel like I can, you know, put my life or my work or my project in the hands of someone. I feel like I want to hang out with these people. I feel like I wanna work really hard for these people. And so reflecting on my uncle, reflecting on the fact that I had this connection with all these different worlds, I set up my business and that was back in 2006 where I basically created opportunities for people to develop these competencies. And the book, I wrote the book because I felt like I needed to. What I've discovered through my business is the power of when people truly believe in themselves, when they understand the power that they have at their fingertips, when they understand the power of empathy. and vulnerability, when they understand how, you know, how incredibly important it is that they develop that cultural intelligence, they go back to work, whether they did it virtually or physically through an ex— you know, a program that we have, but they, their day-to-day at work is different because they have those competencies that they didn't have before. And their line managers notice a difference. They notice a difference within themselves. They have a confidence that they didn't have before. things work in a better way. And so I decided to lift the sort of lid on the secret sauce of what I'd created through my work, which was inspired through all of these different kind of experiences and wanting to provide these opportunities for people who, you know, at the end of the day, when I was reflecting on work in advertising in London, you know, we're supposed to be creating these big ideas for big brands. We're supposed to be building businesses. We're supposed to be doing all these amazing things. But at the end of the day, people come from the same universities. They, know, go to the same pub after school or after work. They go to the same places on holiday. They have the same dinner parties with the same sorts of people to snap out of the kind of day-to-day that we're all guilty of being in because life is busy and stressful and scary. And you just want to sort of wrap yourself up in bubble wrap and sort of hang out with people, which is really natural to kind of help your nervous system.

Yeah.

But when it comes to growth And developing that resilience and developing that, those competencies that are so necessary, you have to step out of your comfort zone. You have to do things differently. You have to push yourself in new ways, and you need to have these experiential experiences where you are exposed to different worlds. So over the 20 years I've been developing this, and I have discovered actually that there is a return on being more human, which is essentially these assets that I'm talking about. And there is, and it makes sense. I mean, businesses are 23% more profitable if they are people first, if they put people first, and if they really understand the importance of people within those businesses being happy and content where they are and have that feeling of connection and belonging. They are more profitable. And if they're not, so if their main focus is just making a whole lot of money and Putting people aside and literally just really only focusing on that and therefore people not being happy. The cost to US businesses is something, I mean, and this was a Gallup study from sort of 2004, I think, or 2003, I can't remember, but it's something like $500 billion to businesses in the US losses. Because people are not happy and they're quitting and they're sick and they're not involved. They're not really excited about the work. And so there is a return on being more human and tapping into these skills. And I think that just the final thing is what is so key is these competencies aren't dependent on gender, Or where you come from or your education or, you know, what school you went to or what university you went to. Everybody has access to them.

Yeah.

It comes down to what you said is permission and it's giving people the permission to tap into them.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing the story where also where you are coming from and where you found inspiration. I think that's very inspiring to hear. And there are 2, 2 books that came to my mind. One is Viktor Frankl, who wrote about, um, his time in Auschwitz. Okay. Yeah. And he writes that even in a situation like a concentration camp, everyone has the choice to either turn into the devil or turn into the saint. You can either support your peers. Or you can give up on them. And what he observed is that those who give up on hope and on their peers, they die.

Interesting.

So that's maybe the most extreme form of, in whatever context we are, even if we are working in a company that does not believe in the return on humanity. We still have the choice. We don't have to be that person who, who just—

That's so beautiful. And it's so interesting, again, how connection and belonging are so, so, they're powerful forces, which again comes into purpose, comes into, you know, but it, that connection and belonging, it's the same with during COVID people who, you know, had COVID, were in, you know, a home or on their own, the percentage of people who did die from COVID who were lonely was a lot higher than people who were surrounded by people.

Yeah.

And it just goes to show how important it is to be able, you know, that connection and belonging, feeling a part of something is a very powerful force.

Because I think it's also something that is the need and sense of belonging at, um, at work and the sense of friendship.

Yeah.

So being friends with your colleagues, I think for some there is still a sense of unprofessionalism. When I, um, when I train psychological safety, I usually ask a few teaser questions to the group. I'm like, Okay. Who feels uncomfortable to ask a question? Raise your hand. Who feels uncomfortable to admit that you don't know, admit a mistake? Who feels uncomfortable to share something personal at work? I am surprised every time that most people are, seem to be comfortable to ask a question or to admit a mistake, but I'm every time surprised how many feel uncomfortable to share something personal.

Share something personal. Yeah, that's interesting.

And that's, that's the first step for the sense of belonging, right? If you, if you don't expose yourself, if you don't make yourself available, if you don't share what's going on, it's very difficult.

It's a shared humanity, right? Shared humanity is a very powerful force and you, you need to find those opportunities to ignite those commonalities, right? Which is why obviously your work is so important because it's, you know, it's providing that space for people to To find that because they're not finding it in the day-to-day, right?

Yeah. And it's interesting because your work shows it, that there is a return on humanity where you were speaking.

You know, try out just in a, you know, in your next meeting, just have a think about, let me just bring a little bit of humor to this meeting. Let me, rather than me always going in and telling people something, I'm going to ask a question. To someone who maybe doesn't usually say something. We did something recently with, it's an interesting insight that we sort of unlocked. Well, I mean, we know it, but anyway, for a session that we did and how the world is made up of doorways, right? And depending on your leadership style or your personal archetype, You might be someone who just easily just walks through that door, or you might be someone who actually, you're waiting for someone to open that door for you, or you're someone who someone opens the door, but you just don't walk through it.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's, it's, it's interesting because depending on your leadership style, you could be railroading people without noticing. You could be the person who's like, you're just constantly waiting for that door to open and no one's ever opening it. But how much is that our responsibility and how much is that the responsibility of somebody else as well? Right? And then it's, of course, that sort of the door is open, but why are you not walking through? So did someone invite you? Do you need to be invited? And And understanding those subtleties are actually really, really important. And that contributes, of course, to psychological safety, to teams and how they work. But there's, you know, for your listeners, just when you go to your next meeting, why don't you do a quick sort of who's in that meeting? Who's gonna be there? And knowing that, I'm gonna try something different and see what happens.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's these little things, but it's unbelievably powerful.

It reminds me of, um, these family system theory that if you change one little thing in the system, then it changes everything.

Like if we intentionally do something like that, exactly. Like if you intentionally just, because we get into patterns, life is patterns.

Yeah. And I think especially in meetings and these recurring meetings, everything goes on autopilot. Yeah. And then I think it's, I want to acknowledge the perceived risk of doing something, asking a question instead of giving the answer or pausing a little bit longer. Somehow it feels very dangerous. Yeah.

And then it's sort of articulating somehow. So what is the worst thing that can happen? What are you imagining? Suddenly everyone's just gonna keel over and die. Like, do you know what I mean? You sort of, if you actually really exaggerate your sort of worst fear and you're like, okay, if I don't say something soon, everyone in the whole room is just gonna keel over and die. And it's like, okay, so obviously that's not gonna happen. So what happens if I, if there's a bit of space where people don't say?

Yeah.

And we just let it fill. What ha— what will happen? Like who might talk?

Try it.

Because something different will happen and it's important for us to change those patterns.

What's something unprofessional that you would still advise others to do?

It really is what we've talked about in the sense that people talk about the soft skills. In fact, I remember when I talked to, it was funny, I thought my business school would blacklist me. When they heard that I'd written this book, I was so happy and honored that they actually brought me in for so many roundtables and talks, and they really heroed this book, and they sort of sent it through their, you know, their, you know, lists and things like that. So I was so honored. But it really is sort of focused on this, the business schools and the way that we're taught. being, you know, it's the competition and it's these sort of hard kind of businessy skills. And I remember asking one of the people at the university, just sort of saying, so, but we agree, don't we? The fact that you're so supportive of my book, we agree that these soft skills are probably actually power skills or critical skills. And actually, we also know that they will fundamentally make businesses more profitable, which at the end of the day is the goal. of business, as we know, but it's coming at it from a different point of view. But I'm curious, why are business schools not teaching these skills? And whose responsibility is it then to teach them? Because also businesses, I mean, now they are, you know, getting people like us to sort of facilitate workshops and get involved with things. But, you know, it wasn't the norm. And it was interesting because when I said, so who's doing this? Who do you think is doing this? And they said, well, it's sort of like the self-help people. I said, so that's interesting. So it's the responsibility of the employees to do the self-help reflection stuff in order to have the most powerful critical skills necessary within business for businesses to be better. That feels bonkers to me. Like it just doesn't make sense. And so my unprofessionalism is I'm again, the black sheep, Putting, you know, putting something on its head and just saying, if you wanna be completely unprofessional, which actually is the most powerful thing that you can tap into, tap into these human competencies because they might not be what the business world sees as being the most important thing to focus on, but you really genuinely will see your teams happier, more engaged, more sense of belonging, more connected, and you will see a change in the relationship with your clients. More people will buy into what you're doing, and it grows from there.

Thank you.

Thank you. That was fun.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.