011 - Claim It Before You're Ready with Leanne Hughes

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

If there's something so Excitement from you about doing something, nervous, whatever type of feeling. I think that can fade actually. So if you wait, if you linger a bit too long on it, then you start thinking around, oh, blah, blah, blah. But if you just commit to it, throw yourself in the deep end. You've got to trust your resourcefulness though. Don't worry about the how. You will find it. You will find the people, you will find the tools, you will find a system or a coach. Either way, you'll find it if that's what you really want.

Leanne, welcome back.

Myriam, it's always great to chat.

I jump right in and always start with the same question. When has being unprofessional, in air quotes, been the best thing that you could have done in your career?

Yeah, I was thinking about this question and the most unprofessional thing I did actually has led to this conversation today. I'm sure you've heard this story, but maybe your listeners haven't. When I was working for this big organization, I mean, I was obsessed with podcasts, like listening to them. And there was a big podcasting conference in Brisbane that I really wanted to go to, to meet my favorite podcasters, Jordan Harbinger and a few others. So I asked my company to pay for me to go because I thought, well, it's about learning. And they rejected the offer. I was like, well, I really want to go. So I took annual leave, I paid for my own ticket and went to this event. And over the 2 days, I learned so much about podcasting. It was amazing. And there was an opportunity on the second day to win this a business book, but to win it, you had to submit the name of your podcast to be in the running. And I didn't have one, but I wasn't going to let that stop me. And so I guess what I did was very unprofessional. I made up a podcast. I just wrote down First Time Facilitator on this blue Post-it note. I put it in the hat and I said, okay, if this gets picked, I'm going to create this podcast. And what do you know? 5 minutes later, he pulls out my blue Post-it note and he's like, First Time Facilitator, Leanne Hughes. It's like, come on down and tell us about your show. And I ran down there and I made it. I told them what the show was about. I didn't say, oh, I'm so sorry, this show doesn't exist. I just pretended that it was a real thing. And then a few months later, I launched the show. And that's how, you know, we know each other was through the First Time Facilitator podcast, through Workshops Work. So that's the origin story. And it was extremely unprofessional, but— I'm so grateful I did it.

This story, and yes, I, I knew it before and in listening to it every time, it's just hilarious. The, the guts and the guts you show and the determination. But, uh, this is what I do and keeping the word. So these are 3, I think, characteristics that I hear in this story that I totally link to Leanne Hughes.

I hate you. Yeah, well, I was like, well, first of all, I thought, what are the chances of mine getting picked? I mean, there's like, how many, you know, there's hundreds of people at this thing. So I didn't, I didn't think it was a huge risk. But then when I actually saw this, because a blue Post-it note, it gave me time, I'm like, that's mine. And yet it's half a second of what do you do? And I think it goes back to, you know, improv. When you, when you learn improv, it's like, don't, like, don't stop it, like, go along with it. And I was like, let's just improv this and And see where it goes. And it was funny when I was talking to Andrew, when he's announcing, I was telling him about my idea. He's like, oh, that's a great idea for a podcast. He was like validating it on stage. I was like, this is perfect. Perfect.

You have to grab the opportunities when they come. And I would be curious, that is now what, 4, no, 7 years ago, 8 years ago, I would say.

Yeah, I would say 8 years ago now.

What does this story tell us about the entrepreneur, solopreneur Leanne? Or maybe the human Leanne?

Yeah, I think it tells you a lot. I think it tells you pretty much everything on how I like to do things. And Myriam, we're just celebrating because I've just finished the first draft of my book called Work Fame, which is coming out in October, and it's being published by Wiley. And I remember waking up one morning, so before I got the deal, I've self-published my first book, 2-Hour Workshop Blueprint, and I was like, I'd really like a publishing deal for the next one just to try something different. And I was in bed, I had a coffee and my laptop. I went on and just searched for publishers, connected with them, and then later that day just sent a 2-minute Loom video. I didn't even know what the book was about myself. I was like, here's an idea. I think these 2 words are cool, work fame. This is what I think it could do. And that's what led to the book deal. So I think it tells you everything. It's just my approach. I don't think there's any point in investing in stuff Upfront, you know, you've really got to validate things. And yeah, that's how I approach a lot, like a lot of different— even running, I guess, would be the same. Yeah.

Tell me more.

Well, my first— I mean, I'm not a runner. This is going back to 2014, and I was like, I was just sick of letting myself down. Like, I was very good at committing and following through with everyone else, but when I was like, oh, I want to do something, I would just constantly let myself down. So like, what's the ultimate thing you can do that proves your discipline to yourself, like a marathon. So I went to the beach in Broome that day and I rode 42.2 kilometers and took a photo of it, put it on Instagram and said, Gold Coast Marathon next year. And so, I mean, I wasn't a runner like at all. I'd run like maybe a few kilometers at that point. So yeah, so it's just kind of like public declaration, accountability, and follow-through.

Wow. And just setting a goal because your mind came up with it and then before it's perfect. And I think that is something that so many are missing, that is that being successful doesn't mean that we have to be pitch perfect already. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's like going, like if you have, if there's some excitement from you about doing something nervous, whatever type of feeling, I think it's definitely, I think that can fade actually. Like, so if you wait, if you linger a bit too long on it, It can become a bit— then you start thinking around, oh, blah, blah, blah. But if you kind of just commit to it, throw yourself in the deep end. You've got to trust your resourcefulness though. I think then I talked about resourceful last week is like, I think it's just a key skill right now. I mean, it's always been a key skill, but for me even more so is like, don't worry about the how. You will find it. You will find the people. You will find the tools. You will find a system or a coach. Either way, you'll find it if that's what you really want. Sean D'Souza. I went to his workshop in Singapore. It was about how to run right sales pages, and I really admire Sean. Like, I listened to his podcast, so I really just loved the 2-day experience. And he's like, okay, if you want feedback on your material, he goes, you need to send it to me by tomorrow before I get on my plane. And that was the best thing, because if he said, you send me your article in 2 weeks, I would have been like trying— like, for me, 2 weeks is like, get this right. But it's like overnight, uh, I'm gonna have to— we're all going out that night, so I'm gonna have to scramble in the morning, like give it a couple hours and send it to him scrappy. But it just kept that momentum going. So I do think time is part of this. Like the more time it gets heavier, more weighty, you've got to keep it light for yourself. Um, that's why I like tight deadlines.

I love— and just bring up one memory. My very first internship I did for German development Company, and my, the first boss there told me, Miriam, just scratch it to do perfect work. In business, nobody has time to deliver perfect work. Just make it work, make it good enough.

Yeah.

I think back then I haven't, I was still at uni, so I didn't understand the concept, but now you just made me think of it. Yeah, it was maybe one of the best advices I've ever got.

That's brilliant advice. So yeah, and I hear this, um, a great quote I heard from one of my clients is like, the first draft is the hardest.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's even establishing like what is good enough. It's like, because you're in your own head, I think it's always about what you're worried about is like that person's impression on what, as in it's a reflection of me as a person. You've got to kind of separate yourself from the thing. It's like The critique is about that. It's not about Leanne Hughes. I always try to separate because once ego comes in, of course, what is good enough? I mean, how far do you go? And what's— yeah.

Yeah. And I think the reaching out to other people since we are, and you're a big AI user, you were not allowed to use AI for your book.

No.

So that's also an interesting kind of distinction suddenly that you're deprived of a tool that you're so used to. But what I'm coming to is when you're used to communicating with AI and it's easy to be caught in this echo chamber, so it becomes even more important to reach out to real people to get their feedback on our work.

Yeah, big time. And this is like a lot of us are outsourcing a lot of life decisions to ChatGPT, like literally, and it's like, What ChatGPT is like an average of what you see online. And, and when you really think about it, like, who's posting the stuff online? And, and it's all based on historical, like, it's all based on history, stuff that's been out there. It's not about prediction. Like, and that's the value of, I guess, um, our prefrontal cortex is imagine, like, imagination. So yeah, it's quite scary. Yeah, it's quite scary that we do outsource a lot of our decisions and To AI.

Yeah. And then the, I think the, the importance of keeping work original, so not relying on it and seeing the difference. And it's, so I used AI in my writing and at some point had these loud voices in my head. You're an imposter. You're not creative. You're not a writer. You should not use AI for your writing. And then realized that it's, there are different ways to approach it. So I found my own reasoning around it, but I would be, and I understand that as a publisher, you don't want your authors to use AI in order not to lose this creative edge.

Yes. Saying that though, like sometimes when I write my weekly newsletter, like where I start is with a voice note. So it's like just voice noting it out. And then sometimes I will, I'll go into a Claude and be like, just, can you just sequence this? Because like, this is just random musings from me. Like, so you just sequence it. And like, because structure is probably not my greatest strength. Like, I'm very great at idea bursts, and it's like, okay, where's the logic in this and how do I fit it together? And so having that as a buddy is good, but I think it's only as good as the input.

Yes, yes. And it becomes a mirror to yourself. I realized that at some point Claude became very impatient. It's like, okay, so that's good. Shall we move to the next chapter now? I'm like, no, wait a moment. I'm not done yet. But I realized that I'm usually the impatient one. Oh, that's good enough. Let's move on. I don't have time for details.

That's fascinating. I don't think mine has ever said that.

That's so great.

Yeah.

And then when I saw it in Claude, I was like, oh geez, it's kind of reflecting my own behavior back to me. And that was very revealing.

That's a really funny story. Yeah.

Oh, let's move on. So that's, I think, um, since then for me, it's a, it's a really good reminder to watch out too. Okay. So what I get back is usually what I put in, as you said.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. Yeah. And what makes for you the, what's a professional writer? Or would you consider yourself as a professional writer now that you have Almost published 2 books.

I mean, there's the logical answer. So a professional writer is someone that gets paid for their writing. Like, that's the simple definition. I would say it's like when I look at sporting people, there's amateurs, there's professionals, and the professionals get paid. I mean, I get paid how much? I get about $1,500 a year from my Substack, so from my beautiful 15 annual subscribers. So I guess I could say that I'm a professional writer. Uh, I, I do like the term author.

Hmm.

I like the term author because there's— well, actually, I get a bit weirded by it, but like, as authority, I prefer kind of expert. And this is because I feel like I write more on expert. The root word about is, uh, experience, you know, experience. You write writing from your experience. So I feel like I do that. So I'm an expert on this topic, but the tool that I'm using is writing. I wouldn't call myself a professional writer. I don't see myself— I feel like that's more, I don't know, more fiction, that type of thing. I see myself more as, hey, the expert on this topic, and I'll talk about it through podcasting. I'll write about it. I'm an author. But I guess the professional— I mean, I don't like labels either at all, you know. I really dislike them because I think we all, we like to put people in boxes, and I think that really takes away from who the person is and their value.

Yes. Would you call yourself a professional podcaster?

No, no. Well, I've never been paid directly to podcast. Like, the revenue's been from the stuff because of the podcast, but no one's— I mean, I've had sponsorship occasionally, but no, it's a little bit different, I think. What would you call yourself, a professional podcaster?

It's interesting. I, um, I was just— as I asked the questions, I, I went through all the labels that I could potentially put on myself or on you. Yeah, put the word professional in front of it, and all of them feel achy. And then I think there's a distinction where it's maybe not only about the paycheck, so, but about how, um, serious are we taking the craft or do, have we, so the word profession comes from professing, professing a vow for quality towards our clients and towards the— Oh, and I find it beautiful and something that got totally lost, I think, in the way we use the word.

Yeah.

Um, I think podcasting is maybe amongst all the things that I'm doing, the thing that I take the most seriously, although I don't earn a single cent from it and it costs me, it may be my most expensive hobby or marketing tool or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah.

Like you cannot be, the quality. Okay. Now I don't have a microphone, but usually the quality, the, The cadence, the commitment. I'm very air quotes professional about that.

Yes. Yes, you are. But you're also a pro— I would say you're very, you're a professional conversation guider as well. And so you're bringing that in as well. So I think it's not even the technical stuff. It's, yeah, the quality of the conversation, the rhythm and discipline you have around the consistency. These are signals of professionalism.

Right. And still, and I think, and then there is, um, there's a trap where we let the label and everything that we attach to the label guide our work instead of us guiding ourselves and our own work.

Yeah.

And I think this is what stands out for me in your work, that you're always following your own gut, your own calling, your own ideas. Tell me about the festival you are organizing.

Oh yes.

And I had that pitch.

Oh, that was another example. Yeah, I don't know.

It sold out in what? In a month? Less than a month you sold out?

It sold out in like 8 days, I think. It sold out in 8 days.

I heard a lot. We, I remember we recorded a video that we will no longer do face-to-face because it's too difficult to sell. And there you go, within 8 days you sell out a high-priced ticket in-person event.

Yeah. And the event wasn't like in 250 days. Like it wasn't even next month. It was like in less than a year. That was a wild experiment. Well, like, I mean, like you, I know all these great people. They're all asking me similar questions. And I'm like, how do we, like, what can we do around this? And obviously I was kind of sick of all the virtual meetups. I'm like, I want to crave in person. like, there's no other event that I want to go to. Like, I was looking around, what would I go to? Like, I don't know. I was like, well, why don't I host it and just create my own party? And so, yeah, so I actually, this was the funny thing about it because I gave it a name and the name has stuck, but I think I want to change it. I called it ConCon, just like the consulting conference. I mean, even that sounds like a bit of a joke, but yeah, kind of fun. So, and I go, right, we're going to host it on the Gold Coast because I like the beach. It's an hour from Brisbane. people like going there. I'm going to pick these dates in June. And that's all I had, the name, the dates, and like, and not even a venue, but just there's that city. And then I was like, okay, here's the vision of what I'm thinking. And I basically, what I said to you is like, I want to bring these great people together. You know, we're going to put consultants, like, let's, you know, here's my vision for the event. And so what I did was I think was create a bit of scarcity around that. So it was like, well, It's an experiment. If 15 people book in on the first— within 24 hours, we're doing it. If 15 people don't, it's gone. We're canning it. And like, honestly, within 20 minutes, I think like 18 people had signed up. And yeah. And so then I was like, I'm going to cap it at 50 people because I like that as a number. I think you can create a great community with 50 people. And it, yeah, it just went from there.

And it's what I find fascinating and beautiful. It's a very similar story to your podcast. You pitched something before you had it. You first chose the name and your vision around it and then stress tested with a real audience.

Yes. And well, I guess so I wanted to, Coming back to this idea around like questioning identities and assumptions, right? Because I think the biggest thing that I challenged with this was why does the event host take on all the risk when running an event? Like, why? When the benefit is actually for everyone involved. So I was like, let's share the risk here. Like, because like it's a huge risk for me to put a deposit on a venue and then try to fill seats. And then I'm in this like weird position where I'm begging people to come along where I'm like, I want this if you want it too. Now we're all sharing the risk. You're putting money in. Like, and I think so, so, but that came from an assumption of like, let's stop running the way of like events. It's not fair for the event host because like, and actually the event host does a, like, it's, you don't basically, you don't make much money off it. It's more of a, I'm gonna, I'm doing this for the love of this. This isn't my core business. So yeah, just question, like I said, just questioning the label attached to certain things is how you can.

Yeah.

Break that.

And I, so thank you for adding that. I'm so glad that I held back with my questions, but you speak. What I think is below the surface is your years of showing up and leading with crazy ideas that you follow through and put out there.

Yeah.

And your reliability. So you have spent 8 to 10 years building your personal brand.

Yeah.

That if you say, okay, I have this crazy idea, let's share the risk. People who put their money down know that you will keep your word.

Yeah.

And I think that's a piece of professionalism where people trust your word and trust that if you do something, there will be quality behind. So although you're not a, air quotes, professional event host.

Correct. Yeah.

Right? Oh, event organizer, because that's a different ballgame.

It's a whole other ballgame.

Yeah. But it won't be the first, first knot you disentangle, right?

I think you're right. And I'm now putting a lot of pressure on myself. I talk about professionalism. I'm like, you know, my inner dialogue now is like, this has to be the most kick-ass event. that I've ever delivered. It's like, that's what I'm personally trying to aim for. So I'm like, yeah, so it's a great challenge for me. And so that's why I'm also invested in it, because like there's growth for me as well. Like, what can we possibly do with this? I'm scared. Like, you know, it is— yeah, it's a big bet. People backed me. It's like they've literally backed me to do this. And so I want to make it awesome. So yeah, like, I think— I think you're right. Just having that I don't know if it's professional following through on what you're going to say, but I think, I mean, that's the baseline I would, I would imagine on anyone that's, that's got a personal brand. I mean, it's back to trust.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, um, very long and difficult to build. It's a long-term investment and very quick to break.

Scary.

And I think that's also where then the, um, the excitement or the nervousness comes from. How will you define success if you say the most kick-ass event? That's, yeah, it's big. How would you, what role does success play in all of that? And who is in charge? Who, who carries the risk for the success? Because if everyone—

I mean, we all do. Yeah, we all do. And I, so I think, I mean, there's a, I guess there's multiple layers of that. I mean, would be like walking away with a really great connection. finding a new collaboration buddy. I mean, this is for the people that come along. I would say that I would love to add an extra $50K to their businesses as a result of, you know, I would love to put a metric on that, even though I'm not a metrics person. But I just think, I think there's a real opportunity to help people grow, and I think we can do that by sharing and being transparent. I think just the joy as well that we create over the 2 days. And also, I'm in a— I mean, we're in a very privileged position because the work that we do impacts people that also run massive group experiences. So when we impact a person, we're not impacting that one person. If they go back to an organization and implement something they picked up, we have huge ripple effects with our work. We are in a very— like, both you and I. So we can really turn some things around. And so I think that would be like— that's probably the bigger impact goal is I really want to, yeah, just, I guess, like shake everyone up, including myself, and like, hey, what are we doing? What can we do better? How do we have fun with this? And how can we like just— Yeah, I don't know, do better. But you're right, I should probably put some like hard, like proper sit down and think what that is.

And honestly, I got goosebumps when you explained about the ripple effect and what success means to you to have the bigger impact. And what my gut told me in that moment is, no, don't sit down with metrics, right? And I think this is for me, trap in which we all fall down. Because if you're suddenly in metrics, you will look at the metrics and try to, to check all the boxes where your heart and Leanne Hughes is in the passion of doing. And then as a side effect, it will be grandiose.

Yes. Yes.

Because it's, um, and you said, you said a sentence mentioning we inspire people by being transparent about how we do the things. And I think that's something that you do to the extreme and are helping so many people around you, including myself, to make better decisions about use of money for tech, for instance, right? Every year you publish how much money you spend on the latest tech tools and whether you can endorse them or not for the next year.

Yeah.

Incredibly transparent. And that's what we are missing very often, also from event organizers. We only see the shiny side. From authors, we only see what works.

Yeah. And I'm actually, because even yesterday I was thinking about this event and I'm like, hmm, how do we, because what I would love to do is everyone to like either bring along like the best proposal they've ever had and like show us the proposal, like show us your costings, show us And I'm like, how do I, how do I do that? Like, do I get people to submit anonymous? Like, do I get people to put their name on it? Like, how do I, I would love that. I think we'd all learn by going, hey, here's what you're charging for this. And, and I'm like, how do I facilitate that? But, um, you know, is it that I just, I sent out my first one to them and go, hey, here's a proposal I did. Here's everything if you're willing to share.

Yeah.

I don't know. Because money and Australians, well, money and everyone.

Yes.

Yes. It's such a triggering topic, but it's, I mean, we're in business. Oh my gosh, it shouldn't be.

And I love the idea. And I think if you can do that, especially at a closed event, maybe not in day one, you might need to build a little bit of safety and comfort and, um, around it. But then I think many people will be up for it. And if everyone brings a proposal, Then everyone shares against, shares the risk and then it'd be— Yeah. And I, it's indeed, it's so sad and rare that we openly share our rates with each other. And there would be so much to learn from that.

Big time.

And I wonder where it comes from because it could be, so having high rates could be something to be proud of. Without showing off. And I don't know where it comes from, these, um—

It's like, I guess money. It's, it's money. I don't know what it is either, but yeah, it could be showing off, or you could also think maybe that's not enough. Maybe I'm— no one really knows. Like, it's like, how are people pricing it? Like, you just don't know. And I think there's a lot of things that lead into it. I mean, brand is a big one. Like, how in demand are you? You know, then you So I think it could, and if you're a solopreneur, you couldn't marry your identity with that, right? So that's where it gets personal. Yeah. I think that's probably the major thing.

And it's so difficult, especially as you say, for solopreneurs then to compare. And in the area of facilitation, I assume most of your guests will be facilitators. Are you really, is your offer, although you might offer a workshop or is it an experience or is it a A process. It's very different from each other. So the pricing is also different.

Of course. Yeah, it is really hard to compare.

It's highly complex, but I think to see the proposal also, how do you structure it and what do you price? Do you price, do you put the price tag on your name? Do you put the price tag on the value, on the time? There's so many different ways to do that.

Yeah, I agree. And maybe it's, maybe we just do like a case study. Like a client has come to you with this, they want this, what would you charge? And what would you think about? You know, maybe that's more of the discussion. I don't know.

I love the idea. I love the idea because again, it breaks the walls of what we do at conferences. Speaking about money in the abstract, it's very easy.

So easy.

Speaking about money—

When it's you.

Very different.

Yes.

And maybe that's it, what you said also about the rejection of our work when we send it out early for people to review. With our pricing, suddenly it's not about our work, it's about ourselves. Yes.

Deeply personal. Yeah. And that can be dangerous though if we do attach the ego because then where is the growth opportunity? Like if you're not participating in these conversations, like I remember joining an Alan Weiss mastermind early on and I, A guy in our group was charging $50K for strategy, and I was like, whoa, that's unbelievable, like, to hear that. But it was great to hear that. Yeah, so these conversations can be really helpful. But yeah, definitely important. I mean, in everything, it is hard to separate yourself from the idea, but I think that's a really powerful mindset if you can do it.

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of value in this initial intimidation Wow, if someone, if he can charge that much, what would it take me to charge that much? And if charging higher rates is a goal, then this can become a real aspiration. Then, oh, with your mindset, oh, I could just try it out.

Yeah, that's why I love, like, they always say never meet your heroes, and I've met a few of my heroes and you're like, they, they're great, they're just, they're really great people, but you're like, then they're humans. It's like we can all do this. I noticed that people have special talents, of course, but a lot of it is around— I mean, there's a bit of luck involved as well, you have to admit that. But you've got to— yeah, it's very encouraging to know that they don't have special powers. They are normal humans.

And you can create your moments of luck. If you don't show up, the chances of being lucky are very, very low. I read— oh, there was a book, I think, about serendipity, and what I found Interesting was that it seems as if extroverts are more lucky or have higher chances of success. And the way they explained it is that extroverts are, take more chances to speak to strangers, for instance. And the more you speak to strangers, the higher the, the opportunity, the chance, the probability to meet a random person who can help you on your adventure.

Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I mean, that's Was it that by Dr. Christian Busch? I had him on my podcast. I think he talked about The Serendipity Effect. Yeah, it's such a great book.

Mm-hmm.

Something that I've written about as well, I call it the walk of fame. Like, go for a walk and say hi to people. And as I was writing, I'm like, this is quite— this is going to really throw some people off. People are going to reject this idea. And I was like, do I believe it? I was like, yes, actually. Like, because, you know, we're all so plugged in and so insular, and a lot of this is about We're in society, we've got to connect with people. It's like, that's what it's about. And so if you can develop that every day by just saying hi to someone, even though they'll probably reject you— I mean, 80% of the time people don't say hello back to me. It's not about getting a hi back, it's about just being the person that's brave enough to smile at a stranger and say g'day.

Yeah, and funny enough, I make a different experience. Many people actually say hi back, or at least smile. Um, yeah. And it sometimes can make a day.

Yes.

The very short moment of human connection, a smile, a hello, and to practice that every day. I love that. Mm. Now I want to read your book even more.

You're too kind.

No, I'm just being honest.

Thank you.

What would be An unprofessional advice, something unprofessional that you would still advise other people to do?

Ah, I think, I think it's probably the thread of this conversation. And I don't want to say don't overthink it. I think that's too easy to say, but it's definitely like follow, follow that joy. If you've got an idea that it's like bursting through you with energy, I think it deserves a place to go. And so just put it out. That's how I'd frame it rather than you know, try and like make it the best thing. And before you put it out, I think just make it a low-friction way of just stress testing it because, A, you'll feel better about it. Like, I just have to, when I have these ideas, like, where can I put them? That's why I had my daily podcast last year is because I just want to place these ideas somewhere and get them out of my system and you can go back to them later. But it's just a nice thing to do. And even if no one either listens to it or responds to your idea, it's okay because at least you're creating this practice where over time, and you know, it makes it easier for you to write books and, and, and do other things and link ideas because you, you've captured that somewhere. And so I'm not— it doesn't have to be in public, but just like do something with that. Because if your body— I think if your full body is saying, I'm really excited about this, you deserve to, to try it. So that would be my advice.

So beautiful. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I don't want to be too corny.

There's another thing that I think we can learn from you is the, then not getting attached to it. I think there are 2 things. One thing that I think is you, when you can benefit from the process independent of the outcome, just do it. So you put your podcast out there and it wasn't about the podcast, but it was about your learning and having This bucket where you can put in your ideas. If then it becomes successful, great. That's my point. Yes. And the second is know when to stop. So after a year of daily podcasting, you said, okay, done that now. I'll stop.

Yeah. That was a great idea to do that because it's been nice waking up and not having to worry about it, but I'm so glad I did the whole year of it as well. Yeah. I like that you differentiated those 2 points. I've also heard, I don't know who said this, I saw it online, but it's like, if you're not getting rejected, rejected enough, you're not living like your true life or something like that. If you're not getting rejected, it's like, gosh, that's so good.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You, yeah. I don't remember who said that. And I heard something similar recently about the most powerful person in the, in the corporate room is the person who made more mistakes.

Oh, really?

I'm in this position because I made more mistakes than you did. And I love that.

That is awesome.

It's the same message, but applied to the corporate. I'm like, to have this humility as a leader.

That's awesome. That's so good. Well, remember when Alan Weiss, who I talk about, he did some work for Merck over in the US and they brought in, so they pick companies of innovation awards, like the best innovation. They created one, the best idea that failed, and they celebrated that. I was like, that is such a good idea. Because yeah, 2 sides of the same coin, success. You got to love failure too. I mean, obviously I hate it like everyone else, but I'm not scared of it. I dislike it, but I'm not scared of it.

Beautiful. That's my quote. I don't like it, but I'm not scared of it. Leanne, it's always such, such a treat to speak with you. Thank you so much.

Oh, likewise. Myriam, thank you so much for inviting me on your show. And I remember when I first heard you talk about unprofessionalism, you saw how excited I was. It's so, so good. And congratulations on the podcast and the book that will be out soon.

Soon.

But really just for flying the flag on this message. It's so powerful, I think. So well done to you.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.