015 - The Price of Being Difficult with Tramaine Schilders-Teo

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

What you allow will continue. You can, I can promise you, it can be in your relationships, in your friendships, with your parents, with your siblings, with your friends, with yourself, and especially at work. If you allow this one time, I guarantee it will happen again and again, and it will be too late to set that boundary.

Germaine, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

Yes, me too. I'm curious and excited about getting a little glimpse into corporate, the corporate world. And what it means to be unprofessional as a woman, what it means to be a difficult woman.

Exactly. Those are so many words that when strung together in a sentence says so much, you know, without saying so much, right?

That's true. Yeah. And I always like to start with an invitation for an anecdote. Can you tell us about a time when you've done something that might have been considered unprofessional and still maybe the best move you could have done?

I think, you know, I thought about this for a little bit and, you know, I've been in my industry for, I would say, 15 years more. And at each point, I think because I've had, I've been working in different countries that sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it's not. But I think the most kind of Pivoting point was, it's a while back now, but I remember sitting in this meeting and people were discussing, oh, you know, Christmas is coming up, so people are going to be on holidays. You know, what are we going to do? Now, my job involves, you know, things that need to happen live, on the go, on the spot. Things can fall apart at 12 o'clock at midnight. So, there was a question from somebody in the group, this is a management meeting, about, you know, schedules over Christmas. And this person asked, so, yeah, what are we doing about this year's schedule? And to be fair, I was in the company, I just moved back home and I was in this company. And so I was probably the newest person in that room, even though I'm not new to the company's network and company of companies, basically. And she asked basically, yes, so for Christmas this year, what will we do about the schedule, about emergency contacts? Et cetera. And I was sitting there thinking, like, what do you mean by emergency contacts? Like, people are on, it's Christmas and New Year's, people are with their families, you know, especially being in a country like Singapore where people leave to go on holidays or, you know, for people who are foreigners, they go back home to see their family. And as she's speaking, I'm thinking in my head going, and nobody's saying anything, everyone's nodding along. And I was thinking, And I said, so I decided I need to say something. I was like, I'm sorry, just pardon me, but it's Christmas. What is the challenge, right? We're on holidays. And she's like, well, yeah, we need a roster of all the members on your team so we know who to call if there's an emergency. And then I remembered this line that my husband, Yuri, taught me that he, I don't know where he heard it from, but he goes, well, an emergency on your part, or a lack of, sorry, a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. And I didn't say it in so many words, but I kind of did.

I was—

so I said, well, Christmas happens the same every year. It's the same time, same date. We should plan for it in November. Why are we waiting? Why did we wait till December to talk about this? And, you know, I'm not saying— no, obviously this is not a conversation for the client, but we as gatekeepers, as management, should be preparing. So I basically said, well, why aren't we preparing for an emergency? You don't need a list of my team members. And at that time, I managed a really big team. You don't need a list of anybody you can call. If there's an emergency, you just call me. And then the room was kind of like, you can see how uncomfortable everybody was because I know it's a very simple thing, right? But it's not okay. It's Christmas. And the reason why I'm sitting in management is because, well, firstly, I get paid a lot more than the next person in my team. Of course I'm gonna take this responsibility. I mean, if it's, you can just call me. So if there's an emergency, then call me. Anything somebody in my team can do, I can also do. You don't have to bother them. You know, firstly, they don't get paid enough. They're juniors, most of them. And we are here in this meeting because we are more senior and therefore we should be responsible for an emergency. And why aren't we planning for it? And everyone kind of fell silent. And I remember my boss giving me this look. And I was like, okay, I, I, what, how is that not appropriate to say?

Wow.

Yeah. So after that meeting, everyone's like, okay, yeah, you know, let's go back and think and let's talk about this schedule. And I was like, what schedule? And then I had this meeting. So it was really interesting because 2 things happened. One, my boss kind of made a comment and was, well, we, you know, we need to really work with them and, and do this and that. I go, I am working with them. I gave them a number and that is my number. I don't understand the problem with this situation. And coincidentally, I had another second reporting line where I reported also into like a global or regional headquarters, and they said, yeah, well, we're all off, it's Christmas. Well, you know, because in the European countries, everyone's off, even the clients are off. So they're like, yeah, of course, you know, this is, yeah, this is a very normal thing to say. So the jarringness of it is really interesting. I mean, I did get I wouldn't say commended, but positively went like, yeah, you know, I think Tramaine's right. Why can't we put the heads of or the management people as emergency contacts? If there's an issue, then we will know who to direct it to, right?

Yeah.

Because we oversee everything. So it was really interesting because when I did that, then, you know, the more senior management came in, yeah, you know, let's just do that. We give a list of the different directors or head of management. If there's an issue, you can WhatsApp or you can call us. We wouldn't use emails, of course, because it's too slow, and then we'll know what to do with the information.

Yeah.

And that did not, yeah, it was really jarring, right? Because you got one hand where, you know, very senior people going, yeah, of course she's right. And the other hand, kind of like the more localized teams or regional teams are like, oh yeah, but we didn't do this before. It was different last year. It's like, well, we have new management now, so things are changing. So, I don't understand the problem. You wanted a number, I gave you a number.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Very, thank you so much for sharing that. And I, It's interesting on many levels because it shows that you have your team's back.

Yeah.

And take the responsibility and challenging the status quo. Why, why do we have to push the juniors into this situation? Also, I guess that there is a higher barrier to call. management in case of a maybe air quote emergency than to have a list of, oh, these are all the people that you can interrupt during their vacation.

Exactly.

Mind?

Yeah, no, they wouldn't mind.

So to create a little bit of an obstacle to make it a real urgency for them to think twice. What do you think was the shocking moment in that situation in the room? Was it that you challenging the status quo or you taking responsibility and saying, okay, I'm the manager, I should do that and not my team?

I think first it was the status quo because the person I was speaking towards or speaking to in this moment when she was asking the question has been in the company for a lot longer than I have. And the way the conversation was brought about was like, it's a regular thing that they do every year and they bring up this question. So it was definitely kind of challenging the status quo. And it is interesting. And then following to that, how I challenged it, because, you know, it's really whenever we talk about being super unprofessional or kind of changing the status quo, it's not like we're going in there and just going, no, I'm going in there and I'm proposing an alternative that might even be better.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so I think it's kind of almost 3 things. One, it's challenging the status quo. 2, taking responsibility as a leader. and 3, for offering you an alternative solution, which you absolutely cannot say no to. So, you leave everybody a little bit dumbfounded going, well, we can't say no. We can't say that's not a good idea because it is actually a good idea. So, everyone's kind of a little bit confused and going like, well, okay, how do we proceed?

Yeah.

Right? And obviously, now, when I said that, I always preface, now, this is how I wanna do it. This is for my team. I don't know about all the other teams. I can't speak for them, but I'm speaking for myself. So, if you want a number, I'll give you a number. And this And this happens actually quite often. I always offer a solution in place of what they're asking from me. Because no matter in any work situation, especially when you're working with stakeholders or very senior stakeholders, the unprofessionalism is a first step, right? You know, kind of the challenge in the status quo, that's super, especially in Asia, especially as a female leader, especially all these things that kind of, you know, all these tick, tick, tick boxes, right? You're really like stepping into some danger zones here. But I think that's why for me, well, if I propose something that is a good alternative, they cannot see this as a, you know, as a, as a rejection or, or as that I'm not doing my job. So I'm trying to counterbalance this, this being unprofessional or being, saying things that are unprecedented, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever received pushback?

Yeah. Oh man, you just triggered a memory. It was another situation with somebody else, the same, actually in the same company. And, uh, this person came in, wrote some emails that were really demanding something, and everyone was agreeing in this email thread. And I was like, oh, come on, you know, it's okay, you know, I'm gonna do— it's a Friday afternoon at 4 PM, by the way. I'm thinking, listen, I'm gonna go have a glass of wine, and this is stopping me from starting my weekend. But it was also unreasonable, basically, and nobody was saying anything. So I stepped in and I said, okay, you know what? We have guidelines and we have cutoffs for things that need to happen on a Friday because everyone needs to deserve their weekend. So I said, we cannot pick up this request because the request you're asking for was something to happen on Saturday.

Mm-hmm.

Firstly, it's a weekend. Now, in Asia, they have no boundaries sometimes with regards to this, and I wish more people spoke about that, actually. But anyway, I digress. And the question was about doing something for Saturday, and I said, well, if this was already planned with the client, this event or this thing couldn't have happened overnight. There should have been better planning. Again, better planning. Why do we hear about this now? We will not be able to do this anyway because the task list for all the operations are done for the day.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and I was like, we can pick this up on Monday, or, you know, I gave them some other alternatives, but this person insisted on this thing that she wanted to do for Saturday. And so I said, well, I'm not going to do it, and I'm not even going to apologize because this is unacceptable. You know, there's a work loss or whatever it is. And I immediately get a call from my CEO. Oh, no.

Okay.

There's no response on the email. She calls me, she goes, hey, Germaine. And I was like, hey, listen. And we start talking about this and I was like, I gave her some alternatives, it's not exactly what she wanted. And she was like, yeah, but we kind of have to. I was like, we don't have to kind of do anything, you know? And then actually after she called me, the boss of that person who was speaking with me also called me. Like it really triggered this whole range of things. Like it was, and I was thinking, we're in advertising, we're not saving lives, guys. I mean, am I missing something here? You know, I mean, if the, if I think back then it was Obama, if Obama was visiting suddenly, I'd be like, yeah, I get that part. But, you know, we sell things, we sell anything from a car to— a bottle of milk or a bottle of wine or what is happening, right? It was, yeah, I mean, these are the kinds of pushbacks or it would trigger these kinds of reactions. However, in the end, we did not do it because I put my foot down and I said, you know what, I'm even willing to then find, you know, leader being leadership, I will do it. But to your point about creating barriers, Then they go, no, it's fine. We'll tell the client that it's okay. So, yeah, isn't it interesting?

It is very interesting. Also, I wonder what your leadership in that situation might have triggered in them that, oh, if she is willing to do that, then maybe they have to look in the mirror and then realizing, oh, possible, what are they actually asking from their people? Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's possible.

And I find it fascinating that it's a recurring theme that, um, you're being asked to, to work outside of office hours, to not have your boundaries respected and those of your team deciding for team members.

Yeah. And you also often have other management or senior leadership deciding for your team, which I also find a little bit interesting. Like, well, they report to me, so they are my responsibility, not just in their career path, but their, their wellbeing is, is also my responsibility. Because if they go and burn out or they get sick because of something that's happening at work, it's also my responsibility.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, I don't know if everybody sees it the same way. But I mean, I've worked across many cultures now, but this is quite prevalent in Asia. And, you know, it's, it's, uh, I'm always very curious, you know, if you, if you speak to other leaders in Asia, I'm very curious to hear what they also have to say. And, you know, I always preface that being, you know, we term it, or it's being termed as unprofessional because we're not going with the status quo.

Mm-hmm.

But perhaps the status quo needs to be adjusted or evolved, especially after COVID, after new ways of work, after where work-life balance— we're talking true work-life balance to really be able to enjoy and recharge so that you can come back and do the things and be professional and be really good at your job and help the businesses do well. You know, it's a really interesting— yeah, it's an interesting topic. And also, even till today, it hasn't really— Changed. And I hear that it's getting worse because now we have a hybrid working condition. So you can technically not even force, but you can, you can actually end up working more hours than you're supposed to because you're already home.

Yeah. And I would be curious on 2 ends actually, how leadership has How your behavior being air quotes, and I'm citing you from our exploration call, from you being difficult.

Yes.

Pushing back.

Yes.

How did leadership react to that? How has it harmed or maybe benefited your career?

I think it's benefited my career in actually the most important way. It shows me what are the type of companies I want to work with.

Mm-hmm.

That value my values, that have the same values as me. I think that's really important because as, as we, we talk about being difficult equals unprofessional equals female most of the time, that it also demonstrates to me, well, which kind of companies have the culture that appreciates people setting boundaries because they are paid to do a job, yes, but the job also ends at some point. Right? And then they have to, they have a home life, you know. What is the point of having a job where you get paid pretty decent, but you can't enjoy it? Or what is the point of waking up every day to go to a job that you absolutely dread? You know, I mean, no job is perfect. Let's be real. You know, let's be realistic about also certain things. But I think it's important to find a company that has the same values as you do, or same value system as you do. And being this, air quotes, difficult person has helped me realize the kind of companies or which companies I would like to work with or who value me, my leadership style. Of course, I also have to say when I'm putting down these boundaries, I am very cautious of being respectful, not being rude or crude or using foul or undesirable language in general. I think you can be firm without being any of those things.

Yeah.

And I've therefore, because of what I'm doing, I've walked away from jobs, walked away from companies, from networks, because I don't have the same value system. I've even actively taken a demotion, a pay cut, because I'm just— I was just done with it. And I wanted to move into a space where I can actually do my best, where I'm drawing boundaries. I'm not being called difficult. I'm giving the space to grow. grow, to progress and work alongside people that share the same value system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what I hear is the word value, one, knowing yourself and the values and having integrity to these values.

Yes.

And valuing your own capabilities enough to know that if you're walking away from a job for the right reasons, There will be something else, another opportunity.

Yeah, I think it's also important to know that, now, of course, everybody's at a different stage in their career. When I came into this leadership position, I obviously have more options. I say obviously, I mean, as in there's more because I've experienced, I'm able to do more things and there are more options open for me. And I think that there's also something to be said about what do you know if you're giving up? What do you know about what you're giving up should you choose either path, right? So if you choose the path of low resistance and keeping your professionalism and going with the flow, that's fine. That's your prerogative and that's your choice. But then you also have to know what you're compromising on.

Yeah.

And what are you therefore going towards and moving towards. And, you know, if you're gonna be complaining and making comments about certain things, to me, yes, but you chose this path.

Yeah.

Same with me when I chose the path of this is not for me and I no longer want to work for such organizations or such type of organizations. I know that, for example, I'll take a pay cut, which means my lifestyle might have to be compromised. I have to do certain things, and that's fine because I valued my value system and my principles, my integrity, more than I value the money that I'm going to be getting from this job.

And that's a fair choice that everyone has to make for themselves.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm also curious on the other side of the hierarchy. So I asked how leadership reacted. Yeah. And now I'm curious how your team reacts. Because I can imagine that some might think, yeah, but if she always has the back of the team, will they take advantage?

That's a very good question. To be honest, to my own knowledge, I don't know what they would say behind my back or between each other. I've actually never had that happen to me. What I see and observe is that I then built a very brave team to take certain calculated risks, knowing that I will be there to guide them and support them, and therefore they can then also progress in their career in general, right? If you have a leader that supports you, you maybe want to propose something, you want to say no, but propose another solution to the client because you think it's better. That little— you get a little bit of courage, you know, unknowingly. You also teach them to be more resilient. And these are also life skills I feel that they can take to the next job.

Mm.

And I then amass— somebody once told me this, your people are fiercely loyal. I don't really necessarily like that sometimes because I think that loyalty is an interesting concept in a workplace. Because if I also no longer serve you, you don't have to be loyal just because, you know, I got your back all the time. You know, it's— you have to make the decision for yourself if this is for you or not. But I also know that being fiercely loyal sometimes also creates them being, air quotes, difficult because they mimic my behavior because it can be contagious, right? As a leader.

Yeah.

Right? Then there's also a fallout that I have to deal with where I can't say, well, I'm doing it because I'm a leader, but you can't because you're a junior. That's also not right. So on the one hand, what I observe is I see them really growing into their space and into their potential because they have the courage to do the things that they might not have if they didn't have a leader that supports them or got their back.

Mm-hmm.

On the other hand, I do see that, you know, my energy and my approach can be very contagious, that it might actually create also that false courage to be a bit too brave and too upfront and too combative even, because they don't know how to manage that energy or that approach. yet because you're still not as experienced. So, these are the 2 main trends that I notice, but I'll say one thing that because I got their back, I got their support, I always tell them no matter what happens in front of a client, even if I didn't approve of something, et cetera, it doesn't matter. I have to front whatever is happening because I'm your team lead, so I got you. However, behind the scenes, if I know you made a mistake, if you have taken advantage of something, if you have done something wrong, there will be a firm hand. So I'm also teaching them that everything has a consequence. You have to be accountable and responsible. Even though as a team, I would never throw you under the bus, I would never single you out as a person who makes a fault. But at the same time, if you did make a mistake, we will have to correct that.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And yeah, it's interesting because over the years, some of my— the guys that used to work for me, people who used to work with me, have become either friends or, you know, I'm a bit of a mentor to them unofficially. They would call me, I mean, everyone's moved on with their career, so have I. They will call me and be like, I need some advice, or I need some suggestion. What do you think of this? You know, which is really nice. And to me, that is the feedback, or even affirmation on my approach as a leader.

Hmm.

Yeah.

It's, um, It feels so good to hear that, that it's, um, yeah, rewarded.

Yes.

This, um, courage, fierce courage, and, and it is devotion for the quality of the work. And as you spoke, I was just, I initially wanted to ask how difficult behavior would be labeled if a man would do exactly the same. And I think I would love to tap a little bit into this gender Discussion, because I can also imagine that once you got the label, um, as a powerful, highly intelligent, extremely good-looking, charming, successful woman, that it might even play to your advantage at some point.

That, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Germaine is doing her thing.

Yes, actually.

But it could also work the other way. So what would, how would it be interpreted for a man and what is maybe also your benefit?

I think, again, I will speak only just from my experience. Everyone has a different one and some people might disagree. I think for the same behavior exhibited in a, in a man, it might be seen as he's taking a stance, you know, he's being a a strong leader. He's paving the way for us, where the same reaction of a woman sometimes might be seen as emotional, overexcessive, being dramatic, you know, which to be fair, I can be all of those things as well.

Mm-hmm.

And it's because of my passion for the industry and also for my work and most importantly for the, for the business and for my team that I'm very firm with my boundaries and, you know, stepping up and saying things. Whilst I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the perception of what it comes with a man, I do understand why that is the case. Because if we look at just pure DNA, or, you know, let's stereotype for a second, women are more emotionally driven because we are the maternal instinct. We are the ones, you know, historically, that's built within our DNA and in history. That's how it was. And with men, it's a bit more because they are the, you know, they were inbuilt for them to, you know, be the breadwinners. You know, they need to look for work. They're a little bit more factual and information-based versus emotion-based. So I think most of society, especially in very male-dominated industries, have that filter on.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a filter or a status quo that might need to be challenged or questioned, not in a bad way, but definitely in a way that we relook at these characters without the gender attached, right? Why would it be different for a woman to say this and be seen as emotional and dramatic, but not for a man? And do you remember there was a trend on, I can't remember which social platform, where men were taking videos of themselves crying and exposing their emotions. But when women do that, it's a bit like, well, she's being dramatic, she should leave the meeting room, et cetera. I think that there are masculine and feminine characteristics of both. And the filter of what we see men as being, taking a stance, being independent, paving the way, is this filter. If we get rid of the filter of the gender stereotypes or what we were born to do, It will definitely benefit everyone, just like evaluating someone's skill set, whether they should be appropriate for being a pilot, a firefighter, a miner, a CEO. You know, why does gender have to play a role per se? A person's credibility, merit, and experience should be the first thing that we evaluate. And I try to do that even in my interviews, you know, with when I'm hiring people.

Mm-hmm.

So how has that benefited me is, I think, as an Asian woman, I have to play on— well, not play on this. I want to emphasize that a little bit because in our culture, we are also asked to, you know, it's traditionally, historically, and still are in some countries, to be submissive.

Mm-hmm.

Not in a bad way, but because every home needs a homemaker, and where men's traditional roles are, you go out there and make the money. The woman looks after the house. There's nothing wrong with that.

You mean in Singapore?

Yeah, most Asian cultures, actually, not just Singapore. Yeah, very, very strong-rooted in where we are from. And that's fine because that is how it was. And in some households, it still is. But that's also the same thing as I talked about, a filter, this filter of doing this because of what it should be. And I think how it's benefited me is I would like to think Based on the feedback I've gotten, that I have shown some juniors that it is possible to be a lead, be strong, not be bullied or put down, or not be looked at like, why are you doing this? Or you shouldn't be doing this, especially you shouldn't be doing this. This is a sentence that's been said so often, or questioned your authority or your methods. You know, I think it's, it's, I've, I would like to say I paved the way or I've shown that it is possible. For anyone to be able to do this and use service. I wouldn't say I'm like an inspiration. I would say, well, if you want to talk to someone, it's possible to move countries, to do all these things, to be in leadership, to have your opinion counted, to find a place, to find a company that values what you do, that it is all possible.

Yeah.

It takes a bit of work, but it's possible.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I remember, and I mentioned that in a, in the Silver podcast that I recorded, when I worked in Vietnam, I, um, took a lot of liberties. I was always there for my students and I took a lot of liberties. And I remember that, um, the university president at the end said, oh, Miriam, you're young, you're a woman, you're pretty. Just remember that it won't last. At one point you have to follow the rules.

Oh my God. That I would've—

wow.

What did you say to that?

Actually, I smiled at him. I was like, well, we'll see.

I think I would've played an Asian joke. Well, I'm Asian, so no one can tell if I'm 50 or 60.

It's over. He was German and I was leaving, so.

Oh, but okay. Yeah, that sounds a bit so inappropriate. Yeah, for sure. But I also do believe that it is also a thing to be reasonably well-presented or pretty or good-looking. And immediately, again, this filter that people put on you, right? You're a pretty face, you don't know anything, you can't say anything. And very early on in my career, actually, I was given— I was in charge of one of the tobacco companies, and I was a fresh graduate. in this company, and I was gonna be the main point of contact for this client. In my first, I think first or second meeting, the client looked at me and go, what do you know about A, B, and C? And it's a boardroom full of men, of course.

Wow.

And I was like, wow, I know many things. What do you know about this, right? So, and to be fair, I was very young and I shouldn't let my ego or my pride be hurt immediately. because that sparked off an entire, how would you say, uh, like, like a, like a, like a fight or debate or like becomes combative, right? They were, they were not physically throwing, but like throwing things across the table at me just to kind of drown me in things. And I realized that was actually not the right way to do something. So I actually took— I, I, the next time I came back, I, instead of being more combative, I was like, okay, you know what, that's fine because I'm actually in their space. This is the client's space. They have the say, and I need to know how to then also manage their emotions. That's part of being in account management, right? In relationship management. And I took a softer approach, which basically instead of just, well, what do you know, you know, kind of thing, well, I want to show you something and demonstrate my knowledge versus telling of my knowledge.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And immediately, actually, that turned it around. They were, you know, we renewed this client year on year. Some of them continued to be my friends. I still talk to them today. And this is, I would say, what, 15 years ago now? They were one of my first clients. One or two of them I still talk to a lot. You know, it's also one of those things where, again, if you, you know, setting a boundary, being unprofessional in that instance is not the best. But you can also learn from it to then how to use that to your advantage and understand that it's not always about taking a stand sometimes and being that combative. You have to also manage how you want to be in that situation to make it work for you, you know.

Yeah. And I would love to hear from you where the limit is, because I can imagine that sometimes it's a thin line, especially when you're In their space, maybe especially in rather male-dominated or conservative industries. Yeah. Where do you draw a line and how do you set boundaries that are fierce but wouldn't cost you your job potentially? Or what needs to be true for you to set boundaries?

I think that That's really, that's a challenging one. I have so many thoughts. I think the balance between both firstly takes some experience, and experience tells you, you never go forth or respond with the first thing that comes to your head. Then you will be completely unprofessional by pure HR definitions, as in like tick, tick, tick, you're gonna be sent there for a discussion.

Yeah.

I think that's the first thing I have learned and tell myself, and I tell this to everybody. The first thing that comes to your mind is probably the right thing, never say it in any situation, actually, in a work situation, in a relationship situation, in a confrontation, in a friend situation, because that is your first— it's your first human, uh, human reaction or instinct to protect yourself, right? Take a moment. So then the next step is take a moment, and I evaluate, is this even worth putting my career on the line or worth responding?

Hmm. And is it just my ego or is it actually about the work and the quality and the—

Yeah, exactly. Because in, you know, as you get more experience and as you get more into management, you play more, I wouldn't say you play, you manage more political agendas or even business agendas versus your agenda. There is a time to risk, calculated risk of putting your career on the line for something that is important or value-driven or principled, or even the more strategic and right thing to do. There's also a time you go, how much do I wanna fight this, and is it worth the fight?

Mm-hmm.

Not to say you should be submissive, but to say, how much of a boundary do you set, right? You really need to evaluate that. And that is a question you always ask. Is it worth me, my effort, and my energy doing this thing with this person who's trying to make it difficult? Or if I have to do this because it sets a precedent for everybody else? Right? That is kind of what I toe the line most of the time now, especially as a department head or as a team leader, where sometimes it's just people being difficult. And, you know, do you let your ego hurt? Like I said, the first reaction is never the first thing you say ever. And in fact, I have this practice of my emails. I will write exactly what I want to say first, and then I walk away. And I go about my day. I never respond to emails. Actually, this is a practice I've started doing. Immediately, unless it's a very simple answer, especially, you know, as seniors, you get the kind of questions you get are actually more complex and you deal with personalities more than, and business needs more than the actual craft or expertise. So, I never respond immediately. I always write the first thing I want to say, but then I walk away.

Hmm.

Come back half a day after lunch, whatever, right? I look at it, I go like, is it worth writing all this? Delete. Use ChatGPT. I mean, just to make it a little bit more sounding and I think that the second thing then I take, so the first thing I evaluate, you know, I evaluate, is it worth? Second thing I do, if I respond, what do I want out of this? By being, taking stands, being this quote unprofessional, quote difficult person, what do I gain out of this? And immediately you will see whether this is a good risk to take.

Yeah.

You know?

I love that. Whom am I difficult for?

Yeah.

Yeah.

If it's for yourself, that's really selfish. And if that's what you wanna do, that's fine. But then what's gonna happen after that, right? The consequence thing is something that many people don't consider. And I've seen this in emails from other people and it's like, oh, I don't wanna be that person. I wanna be constructive in a way where even if the takeout from the other person is, oh my God, Germaine's being very unprofessional in this instance, or, you know, very difficult, et cetera, et cetera. But they cannot fault the reason why I've said what I said or the boundary I've set, right? Because it is a workplace and it cannot be about me. That's important. It cannot be about me. It has to be about the business.

Yeah.

My team, you know, in that kind of order where you balance health and wellbeing of your team versus the business needs, which the business needs clearly directly translates into the client's needs.

Right?

So it's a bit of that. And I think those are the 2 things I take into account. One, how, like, is it worth it putting my career on the line? Who am I fighting this for? And second, what am I gonna take out of this? Or what is the consequence of what, when I walk away from this, what is going to happen? Yeah. Yeah.

I love that checklist. I'm just wondering, so in a, In an industry with deadlines and clients and from what I sense, the immediate response always, oh, clients' needs are first and then our business needs or business needs are first. And because of that, clients' needs and, and then somewhere the team's needs and the employees. And when I, I hear you speaking, it's almost the other way around because if the team is not healthy, Then we cannot serve the client and then we cannot serve the business. But these are tough calls to make in the moment.

Yes, especially in this climate right now where everything's very uncertain and businesses are, you know, most businesses are withdrawing marketing budgets and the first team to go is the advertising team. It's always the case. It is a difficult sphere or situation and the way of the world to navigate because then you go back to this question, how much do I put my career on the line to be this person, right? I think that triangle of business, client, and team is truly a bit of a Bermuda Triangle where you can kind of get lost, which is why I think as business leaders, we need to set very clear directions of what we want to go towards. I've been in companies where The business has decided to not pitch for a client because they know they're unprofessional, like truly unprofessional or unreasonably demanding, or have created people going on burnout in, in like in the industry. I've been in situations where the company goes, we're not pitching for that, or we're not renewing that because of these, because of these reasons. So it's not impossible. It's just that I think the person who sits at the top has a tough call to make and justifying that to shareholders, et cetera, it's very challenging. I can only imagine. But I think my approach in general, or how I see this, is everything has a price. What is the price we're going to pay as a business if we agree to situation A, B, or C? Everything is possible. I truly believe that everything is possible, but possibilities have a price.

Hmm.

Right? If you choose your people, Maybe the business cannot grow as fast. Maybe you have to cut some clients, but the longevity of your team will be years. Your HR team will be only focused on learning development versus hiring every 3 months. What is that worth to the business? If you choose a very demanding client or a demanding industry you have to work in, like e-commerce and retail is quite demanding, for example, then you need a team that's fast, agile, doesn't mind long hours or odd hours. Which means you might have lots of freelancers or offshore teams, teams that are not onsite because they're expensive. We live in the Netherlands, for example. What is the price for that? Now, if you value the business itself, then what does the business want? Is it growth? Is it growth year on year? Is it tenure with clients? Is it tech? Because if it's tech, for example, and you're not a tech company or you're not a tech-first or AI-first, as they call it now, maybe you need to fire a whole bunch of people. I don't know, right?

Yeah.

But at every juncture, there is a cost. What is the price you're willing to pay? And then you prioritize those prices or those compromises, and then you have your answer. And the biggest question is, are you brave enough to execute therefore then this answer that you have given yourself, right? So for me, as a business leader, for me, it's, I guess I'm not emotionless in this, but I'm very factually based.

Mm-hmm.

If the business tells me this is our focus, and I'll tell them very honestly, well then we need to hire 10 people here, fire 10 people there. We need to change this client. We need to rework how we structure, because I run operations, you know, quite for quite a few years now. So that's, that's the question. What do you prioritize? What do you value most? And I can tell you the price you need to pay. So people get caught in between, or in my opinion, is because they cannot reconcile with the price they have to pay for the choice they want. It's always the case, right? So—

No such thing as a free lunch.

No. If you want to make a stance and be Then the price is, well, you might be called, in air quotes, difficult. Air quotes, unprofessional. Air quotes, does she have the right? You know, all these things, right? So it's always a price. Yeah. What's the price you're willing to pay?

I love that. Thank you. What is something unprofessional that you would still advise others to do?

Protect yourself. I didn't really, you know, when I thought about that question before, When we're exploring and I was thinking about that, you know, what would I actually, what was the one advice I would give or what is the one thing that people or the younger generation or even just even leaders, because sometimes we get caught up and, you know, we go with the flow. I think you need to first protect yourself. At the end of the day, a job is important because it provides you what you need for your life, but also your wellbeing. You first need to protect yourself. And what is important to you, and then reconcile what that price is. Because I'm gonna say a quote, a bit cliché, but it's something I truly, truly take with me, and I teach everybody I work with or anybody that works, that reports to me. What you allow will continue. I can promise you, it can be in your relationships, in your friendships, with your parents, with your siblings, with your friends, with yourself.

Yes.

with yourself and especially at work. If you allow this one time, I guarantee it will happen again and again, and it will be too late to set that boundary.

Hmm.

Right? Now, the first time I do something, I stand up for myself. Yeah, okay, Terein is, air quotes again, difficult, air quotes, unprofessional, air quotes, this and that. But what I'm setting is, it is not okay to speak to me like this, for example. Very simple things. It is not okay to ask me to do something at 6 PM. You know, etc. So I find that that's— and I'm protecting myself and my home life. You know, I don't have kids, but I have a husband and I live in a beautiful country where I want to go for a walk, you know, when the light is out, especially in the summer. I want to go paddleboarding in the canals because I can, you know, at 6 PM because it's still light out. So I think it's about protecting yourself and what you value.

Mm-hmm.

I highly, strongly advise Again, keeping in mind being firm, not being rude, being respectful. But you need to first protect yourself because you know what, cliché as it might sound, no one's gonna love you more than you're gonna love yourself. And if you don't allow yourself to do that for yourself, all the other things will continue and you'll— and it will be— it might be too late in future when you find yourself in a situation that you can no longer set that boundary because it's too late. It's too late.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

For your candid and open sharing and for your wisdom.

Oh no, you're most welcome. I really hope that people listening to this or anybody, actually anybody listening to this or getting a soundbite of this, that I can, you know, help inspire something and trigger something in you because at the end of the day, I truly enjoy helping people. As well, you know, guiding people on their career paths and, you know, having these conversations. Like, I've ever, when I was in between jobs, actually, I mean, when I was moving countries, I was taking a break. I actually offered on LinkedIn, if someone is interested to move to the Netherlands or moving countries, you want to chat with me, I have time. This is no, like, no obligation. I don't, I don't need to get paid, but if you, if you want some, you know, suggestions or just ask someone who's done it, I'd be more than happy to do so. Because there's not enough of us to go around. And if I can spare that 30 minutes to help someone make a life decision or just get them out of a bit of a rut with their minds, I would love to do that.

Of course.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.