102 - The intentional facilitator: How to turn passion into business with Robin Muretisch

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Robin Muettich, and we speak about how to start a facilitation business. So stay tuned. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, why don't you visit workshops.work and download my free one-page summary? And now enjoy. Robin, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Myriam. Happy to be here.

I'm very much looking forward to this conversation and to hear about your path Because you're one of the few who intentionally planned the move into the facilitation solo career.

I can't wait to talk about it. Super fun.

Yes, all the, all the little hiccups that maybe someone else can avoid and all the learnings from all the courses you took and steps you took. And to go there, let's start at the beginning. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator?

Well, it's interesting. Back in the '90s, late '90s, I was working for a CEO at a company who, he came to me and he said, hey, I want you to lead our leadership monthly day-long sessions. Well, inside, I mean, outside, of course, I was like, oh, that would be wonderful. And inside I'm thinking, ah, like, oh no, what have I gotten myself into? And I didn't even know the word facilitator at that point. And I started leading these sessions. Well, obviously, I mean, in my position, I wasn't in charge of the sessions. I was really there to help keep the conversation flowing, making sure we had an agenda that everyone, you know, could weigh in on and that the decisions of the company could be made in those meetings. And I tried to keep people engaged by doing a variety of activities. And, you know, so all these things, I was just thinking, how in the world, in my lowly position, position, can I be of help and service in these meetings? And so as they went along, one of the executives came to me one day and he's like, you are a fantastic facilitator. To which I was like, wow, thank you. But again, inside I'm thinking, I'm a what? You know, what is that? So then, I mean, really, I just didn't know that was a word. And so I started doing a little research and I was like, wow, this thing is real and maybe I am doing it, but I'm just doing it kind of by the seat of my pants. I want to, you know, know more about this. I want to really know that I'm using the tools and techniques of true facilitators in true facilitator fashion. So with that, I then kind of went on an adventure of, you know, where are the best training courses? And, you know, this is many years ago. It's a couple of decades or more ago. And what was available? Well, actually, one of the best courses in the world was available. And through Leadership Strategies, they have the Effective Facilitator course, which I'm sure many of the people who are going to be listening to this podcast have heard of that course. And so I took that, and it's a multi-day course, and you get filmed, you know, videoed, and while you're facilitating. And so I learned a lot about facilitation in that course, a ton. And then I did a graphic facilitation course, just not because I'm going to be a graphic facilitator, but to add some spice here and there on the flip charts and, you know, juice things up. And, um, then I learned that there was a certification for facilitators, and now there are multiple certifications. And so I did that too, and I just— it just was one thing after another on the venture.

Wonderful. And I'm curious about 2 things. One is, looking back at your very first facilitated session, what would you do differently today, or even after you understood what a facilitator was?

Yeah, so yeah, that's a very interesting question. I'm very detail-oriented, I'm organized, I plan. And so of course I had, you know, like knockout agendas. I mean, I had them all in order. And I think what I didn't know then was, yeah, we've got this agenda and we need to live by it. And I would've gone more in the flow. I would've realized what I realize now that, yeah, I want to know the agenda cold. Like I really wanna know we're doing. But that then liberates me. It allows me to then go with the flow of the conversation. Because back then, while I did go with the flow of the conversation because, you know, they were the executive team, I wasn't, and of course I was going to go with the flow. But I, I, um, inside was thinking, but we have an agenda to get to, you know, we have these things we need to do, rather than realizing the agenda gives the framework And then you have to really listen to the group and listen to what's happening and be willing to move with that.

Yeah, the nimba facilitation. And it kind of reminds me of the first presentations we might have given. So yes, when we're very new, we hold on to our little words that we wrote, and then we get so excited that we might weed them out. Yeah, until we get the experience of just free speaking. Yeah, and then we're more in the flow and we're acting more also to the room.

Yeah, well, and I also wish too that, um, maybe I had known back then that, you know, the facilitator is there as the support for the group and kind of the guide for the group. I mean, we're not, we're not guiding them where they go really, but It's not about the facilitator. So, you know, hearken back to the days, you know, before that, in front of that executive team, you know, I was like, oh, I got to be my best and I got to do my best and I've got to have all this together, you know, rather than— it's real. I mean, it is about the participants. And if I can do what I do as a facilitator and they've come away not even remembering me but remembering the great conversations that they had, And wow, wasn't that an effective meeting? And this, that, and the other, but they don't think about Robin, then that's a really good session.

Yeah, so true. And how did you then go about it? So you, you signed up for all these courses and did a certification. What did you learn in the certification? So what were the nuggets?

Yeah, so, um, I certified through the International Association of Facilitators. Certified Professional Facilitator, and that was back in 2003. And then of course I've kept up my certification, but when I certified, I didn't really— you don't know what you don't know. And, and it's back then, it sounds like, you know, way long time ago, there wasn't as much available on the internet, not as many people to talk to, and I was a lot more in my way, in my person. I felt more— Like I had to do it all myself. So rather than reaching out, hey, you know, have you done this certification before? What do you know about it? And I didn't do a lot of that. I thought, okay, well, they've given me the instructions, let me follow the instructions and then I should be fine. And I did do fine, but it wasn't, it could have been so much better. Like I could have, I don't know, experienced more, but it was a really cool process. And the nuggets were, you know, the judges, they have you in that certification anyway, you have to, Do a facilitated session for 30 minutes. You have to design it, and then you have to deliver it. And then they have people kind of planted, you know, to be the dissenting folks or the, you know, overly happy person, or, you know, all these different personality types. And then you go to your 2 coaches or judges, and they talk you through, okay, so how do you think you did? And here is our feedback to us. One of the things they kept telling me, because of my role internally— I was an internal facilitator— And I owned the processes oftentimes for which I was facilitating. So for instance, I might own the strategic planning process, and I was facilitating strategic planning. So it was very difficult for them really to understand, well, how can you do that? How can you maintain neutrality? Well, I maintained it as best I could, but obviously not 100% because I owned the processes. So. Now I love it because I am a facilitator that is totally neutral, and that is so freeing.

And can you be absolutely neutral as a facilitator?

You know, that's a great question. Okay, yes. So there's really 2 things I'm thinking about. So I agree with you, I don't think you can be 100% neutral because we all come at this with our brains. I mean, our brains are still attached.

That's why.

To our bodies. I mean, we still have opinions, we still have You know, our upbringing, we still have our lives, we still have everything that we bring with us. So can we be totally neutral? I don't think we can. Do we have to set that aside for the good of the group? Absolutely we do. So it's not that when I'm facilitating that my brain goes on pause, but I'm oftentimes having a conversation with my brain, you know, like with myself. Okay, wait a second, you know, you can't weigh in on this. It's not your opinion, it's the group. And so I, I learned over those years when I owned the processes and also had to facilitate through them how to maintain neutrality, how to put myself aside. I didn't just come in with the luxury of being an external facilitator, and this is this company's final decision, it doesn't matter to me what they do, you know, that sort of thing.

And how did you manage to separate your 2 worlds? Because I can imagine that if you're in charge of the process, You kind of have very clear ideas of where the group should arrive at the end, or where the priorities are, and maybe some blue sky ideas that come up, you might feel— I can just relate to myself— I would feel the urge to maybe dismiss them too early because, ah, that's distracting.

Hmm.

Did you have some strategies How to deal with that?

Yeah. So every group is different and I facilitated all sorts of groups over the years. I was with the same organization, but in different roles. So I managed different things like the enterprise risk management program and the project management program and goal setting and strategy and a host of different things. So what I really liked to do early on before something was developed. So for instance, I developed and managed our ethics and compliance program. So in that, early on, before I did a lot of research and brainstorming myself, that's when I really totally loved getting the insights and input from other people, because then they could help design it. So I tried to hold back myself from jumping in too early. Now, I still did own the program. So ultimately, it was my responsibility to deliver, and I might have to you know, go a slightly different path or have to interject along the way. But early on, I asked for their input and the team's input. And, you know, we had some teams running for 7 years even and continuing to develop our programs. That was really cool. So it's about getting the views from all around and also about developing trust within the teams so that they knew that their voice really did matter. Like, I really do want to hear from you. Because it can't be Robin's program. I can't develop it because people like, who cares, it's Robin's program. Okay, let's get about our business and, you know, you know, she'll go away. It needed to be everyone's program, everyone's project. And so that's— I did like all the views.

And how did you get there? How do you really get people to own the program and the outcome?

I think That's such a great question. So much about it is developing trust and developing the group, the relationships within the group, because if they feel connected to each other and they feel connected to me as a facilitator, and I am one of the group rather than somehow being large and in charge, and it's in this together, and they see me over the course of time, like, no, really, I really do want to hear what you have to say. And, you know, it's not that always, even as the owner of a process, that I wouldn't necessarily always end up exactly what they said, like they were going to do it this way, but they knew that what they said mattered and they knew that what they said weighed into the final results. Then they were happy to be part of that kind of team. So much so that in one of the, in one of the teams that I led one day, we were, I don't even remember the topic we were on, but we were discussing something and Collaborating together, and one of the IT guys who, you know, stereotypically, you know, was a more quiet, reserved person and not necessarily, you know, all about the team, like, just tell me what I need to do and I'll do it, you know, that kind of thing. And he had an outburst, like, he was just like, I love this team. So, which kind of took my breath away. I was like, oh my goodness, you know, something's going on well here. And I think it was because people knew they were respected, they were appreciated. their thoughts mattered, that we could together come up with something better than we could alone. And they, they would go to bat for it too. You know, they were the representatives. It no longer was me and the organization owning something. We owned it as a team together, and then they would represent it back within their areas of the organization. So it was, it was cool.

Nice. And then how did you move from being an internal facilitator over so many years To suddenly decide, okay, I want to do this full-time, solo, externally?

Yeah, so it wasn't sudden. So I probably wanted to do it for about a decade. I mean, I knew that I really liked facilitating so much, and I liked the rest of my job too, but if I had to think about what did I like most, well, I liked facilitating. I'm like, I love this stuff, I want to do more of it. And so about a decade, I started thinking about it. And, you know, initially you're like, and oh, I can't do that. But I kept thinking about it more. And I'm a person of faith, so I started praying about it. And I just never really— for the longest time, I just didn't get the feeling that it was time to do anything. I was like, okay, well, at least I get to facilitate here. I really feel like I'm supposed to stay here. I have great people that I work with. They're like a family, like it was a great spot to be. And so maybe this is just where I need to use my facilitation skills. But over time, it was about 2 years before I actually left, I started getting this inkling like, hmm, I kind of think that I might be leaving, like I might go on my own as a facilitator. So then suddenly it became more about, oh, wait a second, is— has this just been a dream all these years? Or is this really something I want to do? Because I was going to be leaving a really, really good job, you know, good pay, good benefits— well, great pay, great benefits, you know, all a wonderful family of coworkers. I was going to be leaving all that, so I had to make sure that it's really, you know, this is not a pipe dream, this is really what I want to do. And so rather than leave it all and then find out, I thought, well, I got to do some stuff beforehand. So I made A list, like the mother of all lists. I made a 20-page, single-spaced, typewritten list of all these things I wanted to do, I wanted to learn, I wanted to explore, all related to owning my own business and owning my own facilitation business. And is this the real deal? So then I decided, well, the only way I can tackle this 20-page list Is to do something every day. And so I'm going to do something every single day. And I literally do mean that for 9 months, every single day, I did something related to that dream, whether it was 5 minutes to read an article, because maybe I was really busy that day, and that's the only thing that I could do, or all the way to a 3-day weekend business boutique for women entrepreneurs, and everywhere in between. And so I did that. And as I started going through, I'm like, wait a second, I don't think this is a pipe dream. Like, I think I really— I think I'm really cut out to do this. I really want to do this. And then when I went to that 3-day business boutique a few months into that, I was like, oh yeah, I definitely want to do this. Just consider it done. Now I just need to know exactly when am I leaving. And, um, so follow that on through. I was taken step by step by step until One day I knew, well, today's the day I go in and resign. So it was just the next step on my list. I walked into the CEO's office, he was my boss, and I told him I was resigning and what I was going to do. And that was just that. It wasn't any big deal. I mean, people at the office said, oh my, you're so brave. You're so brave to do this. You're leaving this organization of so many years. But it didn't feel brave to me. It just felt like another step on my list because I had taken all these little steps. If you looked at it from the very beginning to what I had done, it was a gigantic step, but I was taking little steps along the way to make this ultimately gigantic move. And I had been praying about it, and I was just comfortable about it, and I knew it was the next thing. So it wasn't brave, it was just following the next step.

It's so inspiring, the power of small steps towards—

Yes.

A dream. And did you ever publish this list?

Oh no, I haven't.

Maybe that's your next lead magnet.

Wow, you know what, I'm gonna write that down. I'm gonna add that to my list.

Because I think it can be very inspiring for others who might follow, and also just to showcase everything that you have learned along the way.

Yeah, interesting. Well, because too, I was insatiable with wanting to learn all about this. And, you know, we all know we— it's so easy to get distracted, particularly if you love to learn and, and you like to juggle a lot of things. And it's like the next shiny thing— oh, I want to go try this, I want to do that. No, I was like, okay, just put it on the list. And when you get to that part of the list, you know, when it's time you'll, you'll go there. And so yeah, I had sections of this list. I had, you know, I would group things. If there was a link I wanted to look at later, I'd put it on there so I could get it out of my brain for the moment and just focused on the next thing on the list. So then it didn't seem overwhelming. I knew I'd get there.

Wonderful. And looking back to when you just started, so you walked to your boss, you resigned, And then suddenly you were solo, and suddenly there was accounting, there was marketing, there was sales.

Yeah.

What would you have wished to know before, and what have you learned throughout the process?

Yeah, so the wish to know before— part of me thinks I don't wish I would have known anything different, because I think had I known some things, I might have second-guessed myself. You know, like, whoa, wait a second, you mean it's going to take months to get clients? You know, that kind of thing. I might have second-guessed. But that being said, I do think it's important— it's super important to plan ahead and have money set aside. So I in no way would suggest to someone to fly the coop having not really planned Because it could be months. And then who knows, what if you started your business right before the pandemic? I mean, I started in mid-2018, but my business was really getting ramped up and then suddenly the pandemic, you know, so you have to, you have to think about those things and be ready. But the one thing I guess maybe I had wished I had known was that networking takes an astounding amount of time. With that being said, I love people. Like, I love getting to know people. I love meeting new people. I love learning about them. So the networking aspect to me is not— it's not a big deal. It's just that it took a long time. Like, wow, this takes a chunk of time. So that I wish I had known. And I also now just really think about it as relationship building.

Hmm.

This networking over the years, you know, has had at different times kind of a slimy feel about it. So I just think about it as relationship. Exactly. But exchange business cards and what can I give and get? And it's really not about that. It's just, you know, meeting people along the way and stuff will come your way when it needs to.

And with these relationship buildings, do you think of potential clients or other facilitators to learn from and maybe suggest or pass leads along?

Yeah. So I really look at it more as— I think of it as yes. So yes, I would love to meet that person. Not for any reason like, oh, maybe they can give me clients, or maybe we could exchange leads or whatever. No, it's more about yes, I would enjoy getting to know them, learning what they're about, learning the business that they're involved in. And it's as simple as that. It's not about what can I get from it, so that it then is really honest and sincere when things do come along. So it's not this barter or exchange like, I'll give you this if you give me that. It's none of that kind of feeling. It is, well, we're colleagues and sometimes we're even friends now. And hey, I've got this person who came along that made me think of you. Um, and I always am thinking of, I just try to give and be open-handed. So if leads come along the way that don't exactly match for me, oh, that's another thing to stay true to yourself. So, you know, if there's a job that comes along the way that it's like, you know what, I just don't think I'm the best fit for that. Could I do it? Yes, I could do it. Would it bring in money? Yes. But it just doesn't feel right for me, but it feels right for somebody else. I'm gonna pass it along.

Hmm.

I like to be that way, and then things will come my way, and they have.

Yeah, I truly believe that. And the, the beauty of this community of facilitators is that somehow we share a lot of traits and interests. Yes, it is just exciting to meet each other and to share. We all do the same exercise almost, and still we still do them in a different way. Yes, also to learn from how others are doing it and Yes.

And you know what's so cool about facilitation to me as a community of facilitators? You're right, we, I mean, we have similar tools and techniques and methods and all that, but as facilitators, we really are able to bring our personalities to the session and in the design of the session and working with the client. And, you know, some jobs It's just done a certain way because it's a— maybe it's a technical job, maybe it's an analyst job. Like, there's certain things you have to do, but you don't really bring your personality to it. But it's so cool that we can bring our personalities to it.

True.

And the facilitator community is so amazing. I have loved that. That's actually been a wonderful surprise that I didn't really even think about, is how much I've gotten to know facilitators from around the world, you being one of them. And yeah, and how COVID has, you know, when we all jumped in and had to be, oh, you know, all of our in-person gigs are done. And then we all came together, we rallied around each other as a community, and we learned from each other. Facilitators are a very giving community. They're a very open-handed community, willing to help and willing to jump in together. So. That's been probably one of the best surprises.

Yeah, totally agree. Especially at the beginning of the pandemic, it was just beautiful. Yeah, yeah, we came together to figure it out.

We rallied around each other.

Yeah, and eventually the entire community or the entire profession actually benefited from it because the world realized how important the art and craft of facilitation is.

Absolutely. You know, something's coming to mind about what you had asked a minute ago about the accounting and the taxes and the this and that. When I'm doing those things, and I tend to do most of it in a former life, so to speak, I worked as a CPA and I still am a CPA because that was the hardest exam on the planet. So I decided I'm going to keep that thing till I'm like 95 years old.

It's with you. So this has come from—

So I, um, I keep that designation, but it really is more about expressing that, you know, I'm a detailed person, I'm an organized person, so on. Well, so of course I do my bookkeeping, I do my taxes and that kind of thing, but it's not my favorite thing to do. But when I am doing it, I think, you know what, I get to do this. Like, I'm a small business owner now, I get to do this. Now, could I hand it off to someone to do? Sure. But I don't look at it as drudgery. I look at it as, you know what, the fact that I'm doing this means I own my own business. So when I have tech problems, you know, computer problems, yes, I might call, you know, someone to help me with it or whatever. But I'm thinking, you know what, I have these problems. And they're because, like, I own my own business. And I wouldn't be having this issue if I didn't own my own business. So I try to look at it much more as I get to do this rather than I have to do these things.

That's a nice mind shift. Yeah.

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I'm curious to Go back to the moment where you did the shift, and you mentioned it might take months until I get my first client. So how did you get your first client, if I may ask?

Yeah, well, it came from— okay, so the first client was a pro bono client. So, well, I'll talk about that one and then I'll talk about my first paying client. So the first pro bono client, I just reached out to someone I knew who owned a nonprofit, and I was developing my own strategic planning light, I call it. So for smaller organizations that didn't want to go through the larger strategic planning process that I had been so accustomed to over the years, having owned the strategic planning process, essentially owned it, you know, like I was responsible for putting it all together. The client I knew, you know, smaller clients, they don't have the time or breadth for that, and particularly the ones that are volunteer organizations. So I thought, well, a good way for me to test this out is if I had a client, but also they're going to need it as well. So I talked around to some folks, and one person that I knew who had started a nonprofit— hey, let me tell you about this, is that something you could use? Oh yes, we'd love it. Okay, wonderful. You know, so is this just reaching out and they So that, that was really fun. And I almost, you know how when you're a kid and you're excited and you just go skipping along?

Mm-hmm.

Um, I felt like that, you know, when I got out of that strategic planning session, it was just super. And then as far as the first paying client, so I was doing the networking thing, you know, with, I was networking with different people that I was closer to, you know, so you, you start talking with people you know really well, and then they refer you to someone that you don't know as well or at all. And it goes, one thing goes to another. So one of the gentlemen that I had worked with years and years ago when I was in the CPA world. So this is like a whole lifetime ago. And he said, oh, this is great, you need to talk to so-and-so because I think he might have some clients who could use your help. So I had worked with this other guy 30 years before, but I didn't keep up with him and I didn't even know where he was at that point, really. So I got a hold of him And we went to lunch and I told him, you know, what I was doing. Hey, let me know, you know, what are you doing? What's going on these days? So I told him. And he says, oh, I have a client who could use your help with that. And then suddenly he referred me to the client, and then I had my first gig. And it was a 2-day gig with their board, and I was accustomed to working with boards over the years, and so it just fit and Again, it was that feeling of being a little girl and skipping along, you know, the bright sunny day. It was just a thrilling feeling. Loved it.

Wonderful. So do you think that it's still the same, that it's rather word of mouth that you would find gigs and clients, or is it really with an internet presence where you really have to compete with so many different facilitators?

Yeah. So I guess it depends on the type of facilitation you want to do, the types of clients you have, sort of what your practice is. So for me, I would consider myself more boutique. Like I'm very one-on-one with the client. I'm very focused on them and what they need. I am not about having a lot of different gigs going at one time. I mean, I do have multiple gigs at a time, but I'm, I'm focused on the few. Rather than reaching out to the many. And so I have— and I think it's important for each person to decide what would they be happy with and what do they need. So I am happy with, you know, a couple of clients a month. I'm very happy with that. I don't need more than that, and I frankly don't want more than that because part of me at this stage in the game, you know, I wanted some flexibility and freedom too.

Hmm.

And I realized, and I do not take for granted, that, you know, I was able over the years to save some money to be able to go on my own. So I don't have to, you know, beat the streets all the time to get the work. And I do want some flexibility, and thankfully I'm able to have that, and I don't take that for granted. So then I'm more open to letting what comes, come.

Mm.

And I'm more open than to not being— you know how, and maybe on the pre-call we talked about this, in dating, you know, what you could always sense when someone was just like desperate or grabby, you know, they just, they, oh, you were their everything, you know, and that is suffocating. Well, it's also suffocating to a client. You know, people run from those that are grabby and that are desperate. And so I would, you know, give the insights to folks who are thinking of going on their own to plan it, to save up, to find your space, your genuine self, so you're not desperate. Yeah, because clients will sense that and they will run.

Totally, totally. And then also, and this goes hand in hand with what you mentioned before, make sure that you know with whom you want to work and on what projects. Because sometimes it's just like in dating, sometimes it's just not a fit and you feel— yes, and you cannot fight it. If it doesn't— if it's not a match, it's not a match.

Exactly. And you're not going to be happy and they're not going to be happy. And, you know, the way that I look at this too is not that it's going to be fun and games, I don't mean it that way, but I want it to be fun. I want it to be enjoyable. And as long as it's enjoyable, I am happy to do it. I am happy to work with this person. I'm happy. And that doesn't mean we're not going to have tough times. We don't have to talk about issues or whatever. But overall, I want an engagement, a relationship with a client to be enjoyable for me, for them. And then that's when it's right. And if I sense that it can't be enjoyable, just because maybe that's just not the work I want to be in, or we're not quite the fit or whatever, Then this is an amazing facilitator community. There are plenty of people I can refer them out to.

You mentioned that sometimes it doesn't feel right or the workshop is not great. So for you, what makes a workshop fail?

Yeah, I think for the planning not to be participant-focused but leaning too much agenda-focused, objective-focused. Now granted, I mean, we do have to have agendas. We've got to think through the overall objectives of the meeting, but we cannot let that control the experience in the moment. You know, the agenda and the objectives, they can be planned ahead of time, right? There are things that you can plan ahead of time and put on paper. You can't put people on paper. You know, you don't know what's going to happen in the moment. And so You really do have to be flexible. So not having that participant mindset at the forefront, getting the objective and agenda mindset in the forefront, I would think would make it fail. And then kind of related to that is not being flexible to change in the moment.

Mm-hmm.

And as part of that, it might seem counterintuitive, but is not Thinking through all the details ahead of time. That'll make something fail. So what I mean is, I am very detailed, and I think through everything I can possibly imagine about a session, and I know it cold. So when I go in there, I have got to know that agenda, the activities we're doing, when we're doing it. Like, I've got to just know it all. It's got to be a part of me so that then I can release and just be open to the moment and what happens. But because I'm very planned, what would make an agenda fail is if I put my heels in the ground and I'm not flexible because, wait a second, I planned this activity, or I planned that, or we're supposed to do this at this moment. Doing that makes a workshop fail, and you can immediately notice the change in the room when you as a facilitator— I should say I as a facilitator— You know, and thinking, oh, wait a second, we need to be doing this. You start feeling the resistance from the group.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And while you were speaking, I was wondering, you worked for so long as an internal facilitator, so you knew the culture, you knew the people, you knew by definition the strategy. How is it now different coming from the outside Not knowing all these details, how do you go about the design of the workshop without knowing that? Are you looking to fill these gaps, or is it actually liberating not to be too attached?

It's very liberating. So I do a little bit of, if you want to call it reconnaissance, you know, I'll talk to the sponsor and any of the other contact people, and I'll learn about the culture sort of, but you don't really know it until you're in there, and you really don't know everybody's business and You know, who has an issue with another person and what those— I mean, you find out pretty quickly in the sessions, but I like going in not knowing because— not knowing too much because then I can treat everyone the same.

Yeah.

And I don't go in with preconceived, you know, this person's going to be difficult or that person's going to be so supportive or, you know, whatever. I don't have those preconceived notions. And so I can listen to the group more and I can listen to each individual more because I'm not attached.

Mm-hmm.

And that part I like. Now, the unattachment actually is one of the things that I have struggled with. Well, struggle might be too strong a word, but has been a little bit a downer since being on my own, because when I do a gig for a client, Well, I might not see them again ever, or it might be a few months before we do something again together. And even though I contact them periodically, it's not the same. I mean, it's just not the same as being in the office with these friends and colleagues. You see them at the cafeteria, you see them in the hallway, you see them, you know, it, it's much more alone feeling as far as the connection with the client. But there is a lot more togetherness feeling with the facilitator community and colleagues that I've developed relationships with over time. But it's very, very different than the family that I had in the corporate setting.

Yeah, and especially not knowing what happens after.

Yeah.

You facilitated all this process and then you don't get to know what happened I mean, some clients do reach out and share the results and when they reach the goal, but it's— right, if you're hanging in there, okay, job done, to the next one.

No, I want to know. Right, and I really like those people, and I want to, you know, if you're a people person, that is, I don't know, that might be the toughest part. So you have to develop your relationships, you know, your collegial relationships outside of clients.

Totally. I think it's, it's so funny. We are in charge of creating this environment of trust and collaboration and togetherness. And still we are a little bit, well, we remain on the outside.

Yes.

It can actually be quite lonely. That's why I think the community is also important.

Yes.

Yeah.

And it's one of those things, you know how if you, in the days before social distancing and all this, when you had friends over to the house, say you had a party at your house or a dinner party, whatever, You have people over, I find myself working a lot on the dinner party. Like, I'm, I'm cooking, I'm, I'm hosting, I'm welcoming people as they come in, but I'm not experiencing the people because I'm serving them while they're there. They're experiencing each other, but I'm working, you know, to the bone. And it's kind of like that as a facilitator when you're on the outside, not an internal facilitator, because again, you still see those people and you're developing the teams and that sort of stuff. But on the outside, you're sort of like that dinner party host, and you, you're not experiencing— they're the ones collaborating in the breakout rooms together. They're the ones talking at the table teams, and you're not.

Yeah, yeah. The art of hosting.

Yeah.

What makes a good host is, I think, very similar at the party and— yes, in a session.

Yeah.

Do you have a favorite exercise that you would— that's maybe somehow your silver bullet?

I mean, I have favorites, let's put it that way, but I don't have a favorite. I don't have a silver bullet. I guess what I think about is, you know, any exercise that's really tailored to the needs of the participants with the overall objective in mind. So that in itself is kind of freeing because there are a lot of things that can fit that bill, right? But when I think then, well, which exercises do I tend to go to? I love the body of work of liberating structures. Love, love, love liberating structures. And that I learned about in 2018, thanks to a networking coffee with a friend. Well, who is this? She's a friend now. I just happened to know her from an organization, but we weren't friends at the time. And she said, hey, you want to get together for coffee? get to know each other? I was like, yeah, sure. So went to this coffee and one thing led to another and now we do some work together and she's awesome. But she told me about Liberating Structures. Well, oh my goodness, like that was amazing. So then we went together. I live in the Atlanta area in the US. We went to Seattle for a big event, a Liberating Structures event called an immersion workshop with 150 other people. It was so awesome. And she and I got to be really close friends during that time. And then we came back and we're like, oh, we have to do an immersion on this side of the country. So we started an LS immersion over here. We did that in September of 2019. And so just one thing led to another. It was so amazing. And we also, with one of the Liberating Structures maestros, as I'll call her, Nancy White, she also did that immersion with us. So that was like the experience of a lifetime. It was so fantastic. That being said, so I tend to lean on a lot of liberating structures. And so I guess if I had a favorite, it might be Troika Consulting. Are you familiar with Troika?

I am, but maybe someone in the audience is not. So would you mind walking us through?

Sure. So Troika, which I clearly do not speak Russian, but Troika is apparently a Russian word and it means 3 together or something like that, a group of 3. And so it's about getting a triad of people together who can consult with each other on issues that they have going on. And it's very unique in the way that it's done. I think it's unique. So essentially what happens is you have 3 people and there are 3 rounds. So each person gets to be what you call the client. In one round, and while they're the client, the other 2 are the consultants. And then you go to the next round and you flip roles, and then you'll become a consultant while another person is a client, so on. So you do the rounds 3 times. They're pretty quick rounds, they're maybe 10 minutes, and what they consist of is first you as the client, you share in 1 or 2 minutes— like, this is quick, 1 or 2 minutes— you share A situation and what you're grappling with, something you need help on. And then the other 2 listen. They just listen to understand. They're not talking while you're talking. They're just listening. And then after your 1 to 2 minutes that you explain, then they have a minute or 2 for clarification. They're not providing you any advice at this point. They're just asking clarifying questions. You know, tell me more about this. I didn't understand what you said when you said that, blah, blah. And then here's what's so unique about it. The client turns around, turns their back to the consultants. Now initially that seems really weird, and I'll tell you why it's so great in a minute. So the client turns their back to the consultants while the consultants then confer together about what they've heard the client say and any advice they might have, any thoughts that they're wondering, any questions that are resonating for them. So they just have this dialogue for maybe 4 or 5 minutes, and while the client's back is turned, they're taking copious notes. So they have a notepad and a pen, and they're just writing down everything they hear. They're like a sponge. So their brain is a sponge, their, you know, writing tablet is a sponge, and all they're doing is just soaking it all up. And then after the 4 or 5 minutes, the client turns back around and faces the consultants. says thank you and then says what resonated with them. And then you thank each other for that round, and then you move to the next round. It's really phenomenal, the insights that can be gained from people who don't even know your business. Like, they don't even know what you do. But that's really cool because they're not tied to preconceived ideas and notions, and they can apply to your situation things that have worked for them in other situations. So they come out with unique curiosities that make you think differently, different insights. And oh, and about the turning around, the reason that that is so unique is because you're not reading body language.

Exactly.

We are constantly thinking about body language, you know, like, oh, oh, did what I say hurt their feelings? Do they like what I say? Wait, what's that expression on their face? What does that mean? So it takes you out of really being able to offer the best insights.

And we try to mirror each other. That's how we create relationship and bonding.

Yes.

This is not helpful. And yes, the client turns around, they're also— they have more capacity to just listen.

Yes.

Notes and feel into themselves how it feels.

Yes, because they can't respond. There's no response during that period of time. They're only listening and absorbing.

And this is one thing that is so easy to replicate now online where, yes, the client just turns off the video. Yes, off they go.

Yes, really helpful. For sure. That's wonderful. I was floored the first time that I did it. Um, it was out actually in Seattle, that event that I told you about. A few minutes ago when I experienced Troika for the first time, and it was just phenomenal. I mean, it helps you refine your listening skills. It helps you refine your ability to give feedback, to actually voice your thoughts, because some people don't want to say, you know, oh, that's not gonna bother them, or, you know, or maybe I don't have insights to give. It helps people open up that way. It builds trust. I mean, think about if you had an event, a cross-functional event with a group at work at an organization, and you mix people up in these Troika triads that were from different parts of the organization, how that could break down silos. It could help develop relationships across the way. It's super.

It's like a mini mastermind.

Yes, it is a mini mastermind in 10-minute segments. And it's intentionally short because, you know, it's really better to have multiple rounds, even with different people, if you want to keep digging deeper, rather than to stay with the same people and try to dig deeper on a topic they don't know.

Exactly. And I think there's as much we learn from the others. And I think one thing that is very often underestimated is the advice that we're giving to others actually most of all applies to ourselves.

Yes.

Yeah.

And when you speak it, like, whoa, wait a second, I need to think about that for myself.

Exactly. So the best thing is just to take notes. Okay, what did I advise all the others? Because maybe I want to apply it to myself.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And I think if these rounds are too long, we get too attached to our own ideas. So we fall in love as consultants, we fall in love with our ideas, and then we We tend to become pushy sometimes.

Yes.

We start digging deep on topics that actually we don't really understand. So unless you make it really long, but then it's too long.

Yeah.

Don't know enough to dig deep. Yeah.

And early on, it's easier to keep yourself in the curiosity mode.

Yeah.

Like, I'd learn to more, you know, I'd like to learn more about What this client said on X, or I'm curious to think about why they feel this way or that way. Yeah.

With your journey and as a passionate facilitator and solopreneur, what would be your hashtag?

What comes to mind is juggler. Hashtag juggler in so many ways. I mean, there, there's so many things to consider as a facilitator, you know, when we're designing sessions. There's so many things to consider in a solopreneur. I call it single shingle. As a single shingle, there's so many things that we have to do. You know, there's life, there's your personal life, what you have going on, all that to juggle. And then if you're a thinker and a, and a researcher and curious, and you know, there are all these other things in your mind going on constantly. So I guess I would say juggler.

Wonderful. Thank you for that. I haven't— I just realized I haven't asked that question for a while. I was curious if someone fell asleep after a minute or two, just woke up and doesn't have time to listen to our entire conversation. I was like, what was this about juggling? What would you like them to take away or keep in mind?

Yeah. So if they're thinking about leaving a corporate career and going on their own, I would say don't let it scare you. I would say plan for it and really investigate it. Be very curious before you leave and go out on your own. And don't let the— what I call the ball and chain of a salary and benefits hold you back. And You know, follow your dreams, but in an intentional way rather than just jumping off the cliff, you know, because you might find it's not good to jump off the cliff and hit bottom. You know, you need to have this parachute. You need to have a way to softly land and to take those steps to be able to softly land and then run with it.

Facilitate your own journey.

Yes, facilitate your own journey. Absolutely. And in true facilitator style, you know, get the insights from other people. Don't do it alone. All along the way, you know, be talking to other folks.

That's a good—

they're kind of your, you know, sort of as guideposts in a way.

Yeah, thank you so, so much for sharing, Robin.

Thank you.

Your journey with other facilitators who might want to follow.

This has been super fun.

Yeah, and if you happen to publish your list, I would be so curious.

That is so interesting. I really am going to consider that.

Wonderful. Yeah, thank you.

Thanks so much, Myriam.

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