142 - Changing a Meeting Culture from Within, at Scale with Sonja Hanau

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Myriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Sonja Hahnel, meeting expert, and we speak about how to change a meeting culture from within. the corporate world. So stay tuned. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one-page summary. And now enjoy. Sonja, welcome to the show.

Hi, Miriam. Good to be here.

Yes. You are the meeting person, the meeting expert, and I have followed your journey With awe. So I'm very curious to learn from you on behalf of the audience.

Yeah, let's dive into it.

And before we're getting there, always start with the same question that, you know, when did you start calling yourself a facilitator?

Well, I was thinking about this question, and I think I don't call myself a facilitator. I call myself a meeting designer, someone who creates Spaces for teams, for groups, someone who shares knowledge, but I never called myself a facilitator.

Where's for you the difference?

That's also a question I was thinking about. Maybe it's because I'm coming from the corporate context where you usually don't have a facilitator. Facilitator for me was always an external person who, yeah, kind of facilitates a workshop. special event. And what I try to do with everything I do is to improve meetings in everyday life. And I realized, well, people don't call themselves facilitators. They are project leaders, team leaders, project members, and so on. And yeah, I think it felt like a hurdle if I call myself or them facilitator. It is more than, well, let's look how we can use our time in a better way, how we can make better meetings and not emphasize on this facilitator thing, but simply doing it.

So it's the focus on the facilitating as a skill set within the role of a team leader, manager, or other person in the corporate setting. This makes a lot of sense. So Maybe just to give it a little bit more context, what was it that brought you into the role of a meeting designer within a corporate setting? Because I think that's quite particular, peculiar, and I wonder whether this started only with the pandemic or before. So what's the story and what are your learnings?

Well, the story is quite easy. I had way too many bad meetings and I realized I don't want to have this anymore. I decided, well, there has to be another way. There has to be a way how to have better meetings in a corporate environment. And then I started, yeah, simply try things, look at other people's meeting workshops, TED Talks, whatever. And yeah, take all those inspirations into everyday meetings and then have a look, well, what's working and what's not. And before I started that, I was working as a project manager for 5 years, having tons of meetings. And after that, I was a team leader for almost 5 years, also having tons of meetings. And my working day almost only consists of meetings. And none of these were really good. Like, well, meeting was over and everyone said, hey, yeah, it was a good time investment. And let's do what we've just talked about. It was not always on the energy level I'd like it to have. And therefore, yeah, I thought, well— Let's find a way how this can work.

And then what was the way that you promoted?

The way was I quit my team leader position and focused more on, yeah, on processes again. And as a kind of a side hustle, I started building this experience and expertise, like facilitating meetings. So it started as a hobby because I thought, well, there's so much potential in it and Yeah, let's have a look how I can realize it in everyday meetings, in everyday life, in a way that it makes a difference, that people say, well, this meeting was kind of different.

Wonderful. And this was, if I get it correctly, this was sponsored by the employer, by the corporate?

No, not at the beginning. At the beginning, it was really my hobby, my side business that I started. And With the pandemic, of course, this topic became more aware. And then people started asking, hey, Sonja, can you tell us how we can make good online meetings? And I said, well, of course I can. But 80% of the success factors are pretty much the same as in offline meetings. But well, let's have a look on how meetings work online. And I realized that people were way more open to question their meetings and to experiment with new things. Because after a few weeks, everyone was just bored by online meetings, Zoom fatigue, and all those words came up. And therefore, people were quite willing to explore and find out how can we improve meetings, which before the pandemic, not too many people were interested in.

That's a very nice silver lining, actually, that the pandemic gave us permission to question the way how we meet and to be more open-minded to learn and improve new ways. That's really nice. So could you, if you had to identify a few factors why in corporates we have such bad meetings, what would it be and what would be your quick fix advice for that, if there is any?

Well, of course there are a few quick fixes, but on the other hand, of course it's a meeting culture thing. It's something that has developed over 10, 15, whatever years, and you don't change something that took that long in a few days. But of course, there are a lot of things you can do. But starting with your first question, why are there so many bad meetings? I realized that people often are simply used to have meetings. It's kind of standard. Well, let's have a meeting. And then meetings just take place. And nobody thinks about it or defines a clear goal or whatever. And at the end, we say, oh, well, Okay, we haven't finished everything. Let's let's meet again. So there's often no one who takes time to define a clear goal of a meeting, and whatever I do, if it's a workshop meeting training, one of my first questions is what should be different after this meeting? And a reply I often get is wow, this is quite a hard question. And I say yeah, but it's worth thinking about because. If you have a clear goal, you can do a lot of things to achieve it. But if you don't really have a clear goal, you can't share it with others. And well, that you achieve it is not as— it doesn't sound like a success, sorry. And therefore, starting with a clear goal is definitely a good thing. And the other thing I meet often is that people are not aware of the fact that you can design meetings that meetings don't just have to take place, but that there is someone who can give space, a frame, set a goal. And once people realize, oh well, I can design it, then I sometimes encounter that they have on the one hand side no idea what they can do differently. And if they have this idea, it's often a lack of courage to do so because we have done it like this for 10 years. And well, here I am trying something new. And there's often a lot of resistance from, from other colleagues. And therefore, this pandemic shift to remote world lowered this resistance. So therefore, for meeting culture, it was a good thing because people were way more open to new things. But in general, starting with a clear goal and share this goal is one of the quick hacks. And the other quick hack is something I also do in every meeting is the last 3 minutes I ask, what did you like about this meeting so we can keep it for next time? And the second question is, what do you wish for the next meeting? So what are the fields for improvement? And with those 2 questions, if you answer them in chat or also talking about it, it only takes 3 or 5 minutes, but there's so many ideas for the little steps, the small improvements, that it's really worth it.

Yeah, so it's basically how to improve the meetings is set a goal, make it explicit, design the meeting, and check out with a reflection.

Exactly.

And what does it take for managers, team leaders, project managers to actually learn that, incorporate that? Because you mentioned that they reached out to you, that, okay, they recognized that Zoom fatigue is a topic. Now it's their chance to improve their meeting culture, at least online. How long does it take, or what skills does it take after the self-awareness? Because they're not born facilitators, and if you've never done that, What do you need to learn?

I think you, you have to learn to use the courage you have to do meetings differently. I think that's one of the most important points, even if it seems so simple. For example, I really like to have a check-in at the beginning of a meeting. But I realized that a lot of people say, oh no, go away with your check-in. We don't want to have a check-in with your facilitator stuff. No, no. And I think One thing is to, to get familiar with all those tools and methods, but not calling them by their names, like saying, well, we start with a check-in. That usually doesn't work that good in corporate settings, but simply doing it and saying, well, good morning everyone, before we start, I'd like to have blah blah blah, and then just say what you want. That works. And I think getting to know all the things, all the methods, all the small, yeah, kind of hacks that can influence the meeting, that can give a better frame for discussions on eye level, and, and all those things we all want to have. And then apply it in small steps and simply have a look if it's working or not. And yeah, not being afraid of things that are not working because We're working with human beings. It's a complex field and there is no right or wrong. There are just things that work better than others. And I think it's all about the courage. It's the courage to try new things and then collect feedback. And well, did it work for us or not? Or can we pivot?

And I like what you said, that in corporates it doesn't work to use the facilitator lingo. Just don't call it a check-in. It reminds me of one of my long-term clients. He keeps on repeating, Miriam, I hate you. He uses very strong words. He said, Miriam, I hate your methods. I hate the check-ins. And I know that they work.

Yep.

And that's the only reason why they let me do that, because they know it works.

I had a great experience on this before Corona when we still had offline meetings, and we regularly had a large meeting with 150 or 200 people. And I changed this meeting, like we have a short presentation and then I want discussion. I want, yeah, something we can take away. And I use this method, one-two-for-all, like thinking about it for 1 minute in silence, then pair up for 2 minutes and then share it. With 4 people for 4 minutes and then with the whole group. And people really enjoyed this because it was new, it was interactive, everybody could participate. And I did it, I think, 2 or 3 times in a row. And then I said, well, and now we do one-two-for-all. And everyone started, oh no, not one-two-for-all again. But everyone liked one-two-for-all. So the next time I simply said, well, and now think about it a minute in silence. And everyone just did it. And then I said, well, now pair up, and everyone did it. And so not calling the method's name, but simply doing was a really game changer for me.

And I wonder whether this is something that parents can maybe— that resonates with parents, that if parents tell their children, you have to eat your veggies, maybe the children will start a huge fight. But Hey, got some broccoli. Oh yeah, cool.

Well, I think there are definitely— yeah, that's definitely something similar. And I also realized that working in this meeting area also influences me as being a parent and vice versa. Like, well, how can we create a good space where good things can happen, where good exchange, good talks can happen? And also, I learned a lot from my son when he joined his first online school classes, because children, they simply say what they feel. So the class started to say, well, this is boring. When is the next thing coming up? And they, they just did and said all the things adults only think, but they also expressed it. And I said, well, this is pretty much the same as every business meeting, besides that the children are talking about what's going on in their head. And I really learned a lot by that.

Wow. So what is, what is something that you've learned and that you implemented or would advise to implement?

I learned from it to invite people to share what they are experiencing. And by adding the sentence, if you experience this, chances are high that other people do the same. So please feel free to share it. And then we can do Or can have a look what we can do about it. And this small sentence helps a lot to encourage people to share what they feel like, I need a break. A lot of people do not say I need a break because, well, it's not associated with performance and all those things.

Mm-hmm.

Even if everyone knows that having a break leads to more brain capacity and more performance, but People usually don't say, I need a break. But if I frame it at the beginning, like I said before, then people start asking for a break. Or if I just tell someone or ask someone, could you tell us when you need a break? Because then we'll have a break and all of your colleagues will thank you. Then people do it and it changes the atmosphere of a meeting and the way of working together, even in the virtual space.

And what's your experience with then participants raising their concerns or feelings or resistances? Because I can imagine that it can also disturb, and especially if the group grows larger, you don't want everyone to say, oh, I don't like this, or it's too slow or too fast. Or is it just the permission to do so that actually takes all the steam out? And then smoothens.

Yeah, I think it's on the one hand side, it's the permission, because with this permission I can demonstrate that this is a meeting for all of us. And yeah, I want to get most out of it for all of us. And that only works if everybody contributes at least a little bit. And on the other side, of course, if you have 20, 50, or also 100 people in a meeting, You can't talk about everybody's feelings and needs, but if, if there's something coming up like, well, I have a technical issue or I need a break, you can take this information and make something out of it. So you can give it back to the group asking, does anyone else also have these technical issues? And if I realize, well, 30 out of 70 people have this issue, well, then we should address it. And if it's only one, then I can, can excuse and say, well, I'm really sorry for that, but right now I can't take 10 minutes to fix this problem because, well, all the others just don't have this problem. And, and I can just make it transparent and give everyone the feeling, well, I'm interested in having a good meeting for all of us, and it, and it matters to me that it's, yeah, that I create a space To make, make the most out of it, even if there are technical complications or, or whatever. And with this break thing, for example, what I do is I just put it in chat. Do you want to have a break? Or do you want to have no break, 5-minute break, 10 or 15? And then people just had a thumbs up and I know within 20 seconds, well, no break, 10 minutes or 15, and well, let's have a break or continue.

Yeah, makes sense. And I think, yeah, that already the invitation already changes the tone and the setting and the atmosphere, as you just shared. If I remember correctly, you had this phase where you would regularly host internal workshops or training sessions with hundreds of people from your corporation, from a bank, to teach the art of having, designing, hosting, facilitating better meetings on scale. How did this go and what were your experiences on maybe 2 levels? One is the content level. So what is the content that you can teach so many people at the same time? And how do you do that to basically show them that even such a big training session can be interactive so that they get motivated to have better meetings? Because this is a make-it-or-break-it moment, right? If they feel bored in the session, they won't change anything about their meetings.

Exactly, exactly. But in contrast, if they experience great interaction and leave this meeting with energy and say, well, this was with— I think my biggest training was with 250 people, and if they leave with, oh wow, that was inspiring, and hey, meetings and fun, it could be a combination, then I think that that really makes a difference. And well, of course, if I have this huge, huge trainings, usually they are not longer than 60 or 90 minutes, because the thing I want to achieve with those trainings is to give inspiration, like inspiration what small things already make a difference. And what I do is like, on the one hand side, I let people experience it, like how does it feel? And oh wow, it's even working with more than 200 people, like using a chatbot or breakout sessions. Breakout sessions are still something new for a lot of people. And then just experience what a great conversation can happen in a breakout room by just being in this room and having a good question to start on. That then motivates people to say, oh well, I'll try it, I'll try it. And also, for example, I started my training in Skype. Of course, we all know Skype isn't the high-end meeting tool, but—

That's very diplomatic.

Yes. But at the beginning, I tried to change the tool, but I realized, well, this is not my party and nothing where my energy should go to. And then I looked deeper into Skype and checked what is possible in Skype. And there's also a whiteboard, of course, not a great one, but there is a whiteboard. And then we simply wrote on this whiteboard with 200 people like, What do you like about online meetings and what do you hate? And people were so happy to just write down what they hate. And then we discussed, well, okay, what can we change about it? How can we decrease what you hate and how can we use what you love? How can we improve that? And my goal was if every participant goes out of this meeting with at least one small thing, like using the chat explicitly, or hey, we can use the whiteboard. For feedback, whatever, then I achieved my goal. And yeah, over time I realized it is working. It is working. People, after having experienced it on their own, they integrated it in their meetings and then great things happen. Like people said, well, I was in a meeting today and they said, well, I was on a training with Sonja and she said, try this. And we tried it and it was great. And so it was like a stone you throw in the water and then it grew bigger and bigger. What I also realized is in those meetings and trainings, it's important to let people experience it. Even if people always want to know how does it work technically, where do I have to click and what do I have to do. But where do I have to click, that's something I can create a YouTube video. And that's what I did. So I created, I don't know, 20 or 30 small videos how to start a whiteboard. or in Skype and now in Teams and, and all those things. So I could focus on the experience in my trainings and send the link to the videos afterwards so people just can have a look in their own speed and try it out on their own. And that was— that seemed to be a good combination.

Yeah, to really— and then we are back at the meeting design that you mentioned. What are the parts that can be And maybe even must be asynchronously. So what is better done everyone in their own space at their own time? And how can we use the time together in the best possible way so that everyone can experience something or contribute something?

Exactly, because a lot of people tell me, well, I have so many meetings, I don't want to have so many meetings. And then I ask them, well, have you ever thought about which part of your meetings could be put outside the meeting. So for which content do you really need the meeting? And which content is, well, maybe better outside this meeting? And yeah, I applied the same questions to my trainings too, just to get most out of the time that we have together, which is rare, of course, because everyone has a full schedule. I like that.

And I wonder how it would look and feel like if we would Still send out an invite for, let's say, an hour, and then say, okay, the first 15 minutes are just your own preparation time. Don't log into the call. And the last 15 minutes are your own debriefing time. So everyone has left the meeting. So basically the meeting is 15 minutes long, but you have proper time to prepare and to debrief in your own time. And then I think if you would have this structure in your calendar in a visual way and permission to prepare, I think the remaining 30 minutes would be perfectly enough.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. So from my experience, more than 50% of the content you talk and discuss about in meetings don't have to be there. They do not bring any, any benefit. And this silent thing In my experience, is not an easy one, especially. I also experienced this in other corporates, like, well, we are a performance culture, we don't have silent time, and it's crazy things. But if I integrate it in my meetings, like saying, well, welcome everyone, and I know you all have a full schedule, so let's take a minute to Yeah, just finish what you have in your head and really arrive here. People in the first moment, they look quite irritated. But then afterwards, they are really thankful and write emails afterwards saying, well, these silent 2 minutes were really great. And I say, yep, I know. And I hope you'll integrate it in your own meetings because you have so much input every day. People are talking, talking, talking, and you have almost no time to reflect on it and You're just, just in a hurry. And then people, even if it feels a bit strange at the beginning, my experience is people really enjoy having this moment in silence.

Yeah, it's a permit. It's something that we don't allow ourselves. So if we get permission from someone else, it feels like a gift. Yeah, I also like, especially when I work with corporates, not so often anymore. But what I used to always do is, okay, let's start with a Brain dump. Just download everything that's on your mind that could distract you for the next hour. Just put it on a list. It will still be there when we, when we finish.

Yeah. And what I also really like and often do is integrate this minute of silence into the meeting. So usually a 45-minute training or meeting or whatever always includes at least 4 or 5 minutes of silence, 1 minute each, to just reflect on what you've just heard, to think about which questions arise, and yeah, just have some time to understand what you've just heard.

Yeah. And this is also— it's so good on so many levels. Because A, it's introvert-friendly. Some people just cannot speak to think, they need some silence to make up their thoughts. And second, For those who actually speak to think, guilty.

Guilty too.

It helps us to actually make up our mind first and avoid this blubbering. Okay, let me just put out some words into the world and wait for 2 minutes until the engine runs, and then maybe you can make sense out of it.

Hopefully, yeah.

I mean, this takes a lot of time if you put it at scale. But if we have a minute to just write down our thought, then it will come out with fewer words once we are invited to speak.

Especially, especially. And if you combine this silent minute with writing it in chat, and then asking people to, well, please share briefly what your thoughts are about, then you really get brief thoughts.

I like that. Yes, the chat is definitely then the perfect add-on, because also people don't want to just repeat themselves 3 times. So they wrote it down once, they write it maybe a little bit differently publicly in the chat, and then the 3rd time they will share it in a more condensed, pure way.

And if you think about it first and then write about it and then start talking, the quality is way higher than by just talking.

I like that.

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Is there a way that a corporate can measure the impact of such training? I mean, from— I hear the anecdotal evidence and I hear the emails that you received of colleagues thanking But is there a way to measure it quantitatively?

Well, so if someone has found a way, please let me know. I'm really interested. Because of course, things you can measure easily, it's way easier to get time and money and whatever to follow up on things like that. I think where you can measure it if you want is with those small tools like For example, the ROTI, asking the return on time invested. So at the end of a meeting, ask people from a range from 1 to 5, how was your time invested? Did you get what you invested, like it's a 3, or did you get way more out of it than the time you invested, then it's a 5. And if you say, well, that was a complete waste of time, this meeting could have been an email, then it's a 1. And if you do this consistently, you'll get an idea And you also have a number like, well, at the beginning we had a 2.7 on average, and now we have a 3.7 or 4.1. So that could be something for corporations who love to have a KPI. But I think the more important thing, and I think this whole meeting thing is on culture, it's on how do we work together, what do we achieve together. And I think It's it's more important to look at the people how they leave a meeting, and if you look at people who are fully out of energy compared to people whose eyes are sparkling and who are really motivated to just start doing what they've just discussed about, I don't think you should try to measure it in the KPI, but you should. just, yeah, start doing it and feel the difference. And I'm totally convinced that it also leads to, to better results in a shorter, in a shorter while. Because if you discuss endlessly always the same thing, well, of course, that, that won't result in a good thing.

Mm-hmm.

But if you use the time wisely and the potential of the participants, Oh, it's just great. And that's what, by the way, what I love about this job, looking into the eyes of the people after, in the end of a meeting or training and seeing, well, that made a difference. And that's what I love about this.

They have more energy than before.

Yeah.

Yeah, I wonder, I like the return on investment, on meeting time investment question. And I like what you implied about asking the energy level. So what's your energy before and after the meeting? If the energy is higher, then also most likely productivity is higher. Another thing that comes to my mind while hearing you speak was, I think it was Joe on an earlier podcast who said that the result of bad meetings are more meetings. And you said something similar beforehand.

Yes.

So in a bad meeting, you don't get to the end. You're not sure whether you're aligned. Okay, so we need another meeting. Maybe a sign of having a better meeting culture, better, higher quality meetings in general, is also that the number of time in meeting is decreasing overall.

Yeah, definitely. So having, having less meeting, it's pretty much the same with email. Having less emails is, yeah, it's a sign for a better cooperation culture. But having less meetings is something from my experience that conflicts in a lot of corporations with the fact that having a lot of meetings makes me important. So I think that might take some time to be not associated directly with each other. Because, well, if you have less meetings, you can, you have more time to think about, well, strategic things and all the important things. But right now, in a lot of companies, I realized that, well, having a lot of meetings means, well, I'm important.

This is a very good point. And I don't know who said that to me once, said, what is worse than being in a meeting? It's not being invited to a meeting. And I wonder whether it's maybe just a zeitgeist thing where Already now, back in the days, it was kind of cool to say, oh, I'm so busy, and to stay until very late in the job. I have the impression that with the new generation, that's totally out of question. Maybe I'm biased because it's not really recognized here in the Netherlands, but I have the impression that something is changing already, that it's not about the hours and the quantity of work, but rather the quality. And then maybe it will also change with meetings, that people stop bragging about the time they spend in meetings.

Yes, definitely. And I also think that maybe changing the way we collaborate in a whole— this is changing right now too with all those new tools like Teams and Slack and all those things. And people often have fear like, I'll miss important things. But if a lot of important information, hard facts and all those things are not passed in the meeting to each other, but via Slack and Teams and so on, then maybe there aren't so many reasons to join a meeting because there is another way to get the information. Or, or in addition, a lot of meetings don't really write down what the result of the meeting is because, well, no one thinks about it or no one really wants to do it, or there are tons of reasons. But if you're able to create a meeting culture where the last 2 minutes of a meeting are invested in summarizing the most important points by everyone, like for example, write into chat, into the chat, the 3 most important things you got out of this meeting. You do this, it only takes 2 minutes, and you have a brilliant summary which reflects all the perspectives. And well, Maybe it wasn't that bad not to join the meeting because, well, you have a lot of ideas what this meeting was about. And if there's a point that you really need to know more about, you have the name of the person who wrote it and you can just ask the person, hey, can you tell me more about it?

Brilliant. Yeah, it could be a simple checkout question. It reminds me of my standard never done before checkout question. If someone missed the workshop, what would you like them to take away? Or even the podcast. That's the question I always ask. I never thought about using this for a meeting and then co-creating basically the summary, the bottom line. Hey, if someone missed the meeting, what do you want them to know?

Yeah.

And if they say nothing, you missed nothing, then you know that you need to change something for next time. Exactly.

Then you can ask, well, what do you wish for, for your next meeting? Because you think, well, then I get more out of it. So it's always a win. It's always a win. And it has another great effect. By seeing what the others are writing, you realize, well, people are different, perspectives are different, and it's not only my perspective that exists in this world. And that also helps the team to come a bit closer to each other.

Yeah. And to see new perspectives. I like that also because usually the meeting minutes would be written by one person. Usually it's always the same person. So there is a lens through which the content is perceived.

Exactly.

And if everyone contributes, then you really have the 360-degree view. Exactly.

And, and if everybody contributes, you also have a more content-focused view because a lot of protocols I've seen and I still see are more process-oriented, like writing, then we talked about this and then we talked about that. But it doesn't include the result, doesn't include the content. And yeah, it's up to the— I know I use the word facilitator— to the meeting maker to ask the right questions. Because if you ask a good question, probability is high to get a good answer.

Absolutely. And then, so there is an art of meeting facilitation that goes beyond the pure design, maybe. Because I think also thinking back of what you said earlier about the lingo, so asking the right question also implies using the right words and avoiding maybe the wrong words.

Definitely. It's also a lot about how do I go into this meeting? What do I think about this meeting? If I say, oh no, in 5 minutes our team meeting is starting and well, I don't want to talk to these people, I just want to go to sports, whatever, then there is another energy in the room compared to if I say, well, great, now it's the only hour this week where my whole team comes together and we can have a look at the most important topics and have a look how we can make them succeed. And that is such a great difference. And even if you don't have at least 10 seconds to prepare this meeting, it's a decision on how you go into this meeting and with which words, energy, and attitude you start it or not.

And also how you invite your colleagues to the meeting.

Yeah.

What makes a meeting fail?

A lot of things. Um, well, I think first of all it's not having a goal. I, I already said this in vice versa, but not having a clear goal If you don't have a goal, why should you achieve it? So thinking about a goal and then share it, or well, not sharing it makes the meeting fail. And I think if the team or the participants not feel responsible for the meeting success. So of course, the person who invites has the responsibility to set a clear goal and set an agenda and use the right methods, set a good, a good frame. But besides that, I'm convinced that it's everyone's job to do whatever he or she could to contribute to a success of a meeting. Like, if the meeting is going in the wrong direction, you can sit there in silence and shake your head so that no one sees it, or you can say, well, for me it feels like we're moving in the wrong direction. I say, I think— whatever, and then just, just discuss it. Or the way how I react to what my colleague is saying. Do I judge what he says, like, well, that's not working? Or am I curious about it and asking, why do you think that this is working? I don't, I don't get it so far. And it's, it's the way of how we behave and how we react to others that can make a huge difference, even if it's not our meeting, if we are not the one who invites the others.

I like that, the shared responsibility. Yeah, it's not only one. Thank you. And having you on the call, I cannot not ask the question because I know that you have experimented a lot, worked a lot, and learned a lot about hybrid. And I would be curious to hear from you, what is the future? Is the future hybrid? Can it actually be hybrid? Or is it online or offline? Or— well, I think hybrid in the corporate world, in the corporate meeting world.

Defining the word at the beginning might be helpful. So what is hybrid and what is it not? When talking about hybrid, I usually talk about 2 things. One thing is hybrid meetings, like a few people are in one room and the others are wherever they are. That's one perspective. And the other perspective is like the whole working together thing, like hybrid work. A few people are working sometimes in the office, sometimes not. I work at the office and from home. And how do we create an environment where it doesn't matter when and where we work together, but we have like a digital home base that we create and we can access from everywhere, anytime. And I think hybrid work is something that will at least stay, but more that will increase. I think it's a really huge chance to reinvent how we work together and use the potential that's in this setting. Regarding hybrid meetings, I also think that they will stay. But I think it's important to have aware that hybrid meetings, at least in my experience, are the most complex meetings you can have. Because usually you have an on-site meeting or offline meeting that you have to design and facilitate, which can be already quite challenging. Or you have an online meeting that you have to design and facilitate. And in the hybrid world, you have to do both, like designing both worlds and combining them, which is, yeah, kind of challenging, especially because you can only be in one world. You can only be in the office or you can be remote. So therefore, one of the things I've learned is never facilitate a hybrid meeting on your own. Always have a second person in place if you are in the office than have one who's in the remote world and vice versa.

Hmm.

Simply making sure that no one is left behind. Because if you are in the office, you have simply no idea how this meeting feels in the virtual world. And sharing this responsibility could be a great experience for a team, but only if people are willing to, to open up to this setting and accept that there are a lot of failings at the beginning and a lot of things that, that are just not, not working. But taking this as a chance to, to share responsibility and, and grow together, and of course to use the proximity of a few, those who are in office, then it's way, way worth it. But I think the most important thing about hybrid meetings is to decide wisely if it's worth having a hybrid meeting or if an online meeting wouldn't be the better choice.

I love that. It sounds so obvious when you hear it. And I think for many, it's not. For me, it wasn't. I mean, yes, of course, you need a second facilitator who's in the other world. Of course. It takes one to say it to make it clear. I think, yeah, this is really very good advice.

And another thing I learned, and I love to learn it, you only learn by doing it. So we started our think tank hybrid work more than a year ago, and we did nothing else but like trying on our own what is working and what is not. How do meetings work in a hybrid setting? What kind of structures support our working together in meetings and When meetings are not taking place, and how can we design and create a good setup that supports us and not a setup that takes us energy because we're not sure where to find the file that I'm looking for right now. So simply doing it, doing, collecting experiences, and reflect, reflect, and reflect again what's working and what is not.

I love that, a dojo. To train. Awesome. Do you have, after all this practice time, do you have a favorite hybrid exercise?

Favorite hybrid exercise? I think it's not an exercise, but kind of a method that you can apply in order to make sure that no one is lost and that connects both worlds. And That's pretty simple. If I ask a question, then of course giving a minute to think about the answer, and then asking people, once you're finished, please hand over to a colleague in the other room. So if I'm in the office, then I'll hand over to someone in the remote world, and from the remote world back to the office. Then it's kind of a connecting thing, and that's Yeah, usually it's a really good experience for all of us.

Nice to really, yeah, build bridges between them.

Yeah, build bridges and to make it explicit what's going on, that we have, of course, 2 worlds and then just play with it.

And then in the offline world, so those who are sharing the same physical space, would they have one microphone then or would they each have a microphone?

I would suggest that they have one microphone, but it only works if you're very disciplined, like no side talks and no dropping your keys to the table, because that's really painful for those in the remote world. But after having agreed on a few ground rules, it's working pretty well, like having one microphone and What's also helpful is letting people experience it from both sides, like having a team meeting. Today I'm in the office and next time I'm remote, and then sharing, well, what's different, what works for me and what is not. And then you realize, oh well, it feels quite different being in the office than being at home. And you also realize that people need completely different things. A few people say, well, I need a an additional room camera. It's not enough to only see the person who speaks. And others say, well, it doesn't matter to me, it's only important to see who's talking. And then you realize, well, people are different, no right or wrong, and you can start from that point to find a way that's a good way for your team.

I like that. Wow, so much more to learn. It feels as if we need a different separate episode to talk about hybrid meetings.

Yeah, we could do so. And We could do this together with Gesine. She's my think tank experiment friend where we, yeah, collected all those experiences.

Let's do that then. Is there anything else that comes to your mind that you would like to share with the audience that we haven't touched upon yet?

There is one thing I'd like to add, and I realized that people on the one hand side want to change meeting culture, want to have better meetings. But on the other side, they want to have it changed really quick. And yeah, just the idea of being patient, doing one step at a time, and already celebrate small changes and seeing it as a journey is something that definitely helps and not Well, we have tried 2 methods, they didn't work well, and we'll keep doing what we've ever done. So just one step at a time. And yeah, all the small steps sum up to something big, to a better meeting culture where people, yeah, are more, more satisfied, results are better, and yeah, you have less but better meetings. Yeah.

And what I Thank you for sharing that. And what I hear as a bottom line, also connecting what you said earlier, is to approach team meetings as a continuous experiment to improve them. So by testing different ways, by having participants joining remotely or on-site, by asking them at the end what can be improved. So all these small things will help you to also change the mindset towards meetings and add to what you also mentioned, to sharing the responsibility.

Exactly.

Because suddenly you have this beginner's growth mindset. There's something beyond the content that we can learn here together, and we all share a part.

Yeah. And simply being aware that there's always a small thing you can just do or something you can change. For example, I realized that people after training really want to change something, but then they said, 2 or 3 weeks later, oh, well, I had so much to do, I forgot about it. And I started writing a weekly meeting inspiration email, a really small one with really small things like, hey, why don't you start your meeting today with the question whatever? And then people said, oh, well, that helps. That is so short. That is so easy to apply. I'll do it. Thanks for being that brief. And therefore, it's— I think it's this continuous thing in Small steps that you are able to apply that do not overwhelm you and say, well, this is too big, I'll stick with what we have.

A quick win. Reminds me of Atomic Habits. What is so small that you have no excuse not to do it?

Exactly. I love this book. That really influenced my work.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Sonja.

Thank you for creating this podcast where I also learned a lot. About meetings. Yay! Yay!

I'm glad that finally you found your way on the show. If someone fell asleep after minute 2, just woke up and doesn't have time to listen to the show again, what would you like them to take away?

Have you ever thought about the question, what should be different after your next meeting? Simply think about this question. And if you have an answer, well, Maybe you're motivated to find an answer to the question how you can achieve it.

Wonderful. Like consciously designing the meeting.

Yes.

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Sonja. I wish you successful meetings.

That's what I wish to everyone.

Yes. And I will put all the information to your YouTube channel and to how to work with you and reach out to you in the show notes. Bye for now.

Bye-bye.

Thank you for staying tuned and listening to the show. I appreciate your attention as I know how busy you are. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and engage by sharing your comments and thoughts, and visit workshops.work to download the one-page summary. I'm looking forward to seeing you back at the next episode, and I wish you a fruitful day.