148 - Using facilitation to give a voice to the voiceless with Manal Sayid

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Myriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Manal Said, and we speak about giving a voice to the voiceless and What to do with this amazingly fascinating emotion of fear. So stay tuned. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to find the link to download my free one-page summary. Now enjoy. Manal, welcome to the show. Finally.

Thank you so much, Myriam. Thank you for having me.

I cannot wait to just spend the next hour or more Diving into the topic of facilitation with you to geek out.

I'm excited as well. Are you? And slightly nervous.

Which is part of the game.

Yes.

So let's start with an easy question. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator?

That is an interesting question. I started calling myself a facilitator before I even knew what a facilitator was.

This is the exact opposite of what people usually say on this Oh yeah.

Yeah. So, so I didn't even know facilitation was a thing when I started facilitating. So I started off facilitating mental health workshops and it was just a big interest of mine. I thought there was a lot of conversations that were needed to be had, and I just started facilitating those conversations. And I didn't even know what a facilitator was until I came across the International Association of Facilitators. And it came as a shock to me that there was a certified body of professionals that actually had, you know, rules associated with what I was doing. And it was a really amazing discovery that I had at the time. And of course, I shifted my approach to facilitation after discovering the IAF.

So what exactly has changed? Because just to clarify, you called yourself facilitator before you knew that it was a profession. I find this Beautiful. And so with this kind of almost, how do you call that, almost naive mind towards facilitation, what was your imagination of what a facilitator was and how did it change after going through a certification program?

Well, I'm not certified just yet, Myriam, but it was just meeting a lot of these professional facilitators that really shifted what I thought a facilitator was So before that, I just called myself a workshop facilitator, and that's because I managed conversations, or I was like the person in front of the room who sort of directed where the conversation was going by asking certain questions. But what shifted for me was I now had a very structured approach to my facilitation. And so after receiving some training, for example, at the Institute of Cultural Affairs, I knew things like ORID, right? How to ask specific questions that can really help have structured conversations as opposed to having conversations that kind of go in circles, right? So it was a more structured approach, having agendas, like crafting agendas for a session, crafting a design, right? Having certain tools and methods that I can now use for my workshops. Before then, it was just intuition, which, which I guess was working because my workshops were, were a hit, I guess you can say. But after having all of this training and learning the way different people approached it, people who were a lot more intentional than I was, it really helped hone in on how much value folks received from my sessions. So that's what changed, just having a more structured approach to my facilitated workshops as opposed to what's going on in Manal's head.

Or in the gut, which might be the same.

Yes.

And I, as you speak, I was just wondering to what extent it's actually confidence and just ourselves. Maybe your audience, the groups, didn't really realize the big change that is going on for Manal, suddenly having an agenda and being more intentional. But you knowing that there's actually a structure behind that you can lean on and that you can use In order to almost rationalize what you've done before might be even worth more than the actual impact.

Well, before I started facilitating those workshops, Myriam, there was a lot of like personal factors that played in on why I started facilitating those workshops. And one of the reasons was I volunteered at the distress center and the suicide prevention line for 7 years at the time before I even started facilitating workshops. And a lot of folks, when they hear about that, they think that most people that call in, they're on like the brink of suicide, right? But that's not the case. Most people are dealing with daily life distressors, right? So things you and I worry about daily, right? Like, it's so universal, the issues that we face and the whole idea of, you know, anxiety and fear and things that we don't necessarily like to talk about. We don't like to admit that, that we have. And so one of the reasons why I started these workshops was to normalize these conversations, because I've seen and heard so many of the folks talking about these issues, right? So, like, Manal personally knows how normal these issues are, but the majority of folks don't know how normal these topics are. And so one of the reasons was to normalize this. And so I didn't have, like, the structured approach to facilitation, but— I knew that my facilitation would require the element of vulnerability simply because, like, I know these things, but not everybody knows these things, right? And so when I start talking about these issues, especially in these sessions, folks start looking around like, oh my, is she saying what I think she's saying? And then after a while, they notice that because I'm vulnerable, they can be vulnerable too. And they're like, oh, I deal with that too. And by the end of the sessions, like, everybody is talking about these topics that they didn't even think that they would ever be vocal about in a public space, right? And so that was one of the pros of not having a structured approach when I was first entering the facilitation realm, because perhaps I might have not been trained to be as vulnerable as I thought I should be in a space that warranted that. I mean, I don't really do mental health workshops anymore, but that's how I started off in facilitation. And when I first entered the space, I knew that I had to get over that fear of being vulnerable. And so that was one of the pros of not knowing what a facilitator was, if that answers your question. But definitely the training and being exposed to all of these facilitators has certainly added to my facilitation after having had that knowledge of, you know, I need to be vulnerable, I need to get over that fear. And so I think there's pros to both. And once I combined the two, it really added to my To my practice as a facilitator.

And it's a beautiful story, and I can imagine how much you learned from this time to the workshop facilitation you're doing today. And I wonder how you made the shift from being in a vulnerable one-on-one conversation as almost a consult— maybe not a consultant, but an ear. I think if someone is calling the hotline, expecting to find someone who's there to comfort them. You have a totally different role as opposed to someone who's hosting a conversation for a group of people who all need to be heard.

Yeah.

Although they might not want to speak up. So what is the shift in your own role to open the space? Also, and I might be ignorant, I would have thought that on such a hotline, you're not the person to be vulnerable because you cannot just open up constantly to everyone who's calling and sharing their daily problems with you. But then you just mentioned that in this workshop setting, you are.

Yeah, it's interesting that you say that there could be a vast difference, Myriam, but it's actually quite similar. So in a facilitated role, Myriam, we don't really say much. Like, we don't solve a group's issues. We're not really knowledgeable in the content for the most part. What I would like to say is that we're pretty good listeners and we like to sort of gauge that. And that's exactly what my role in the distress line was, to be a good listener. I barely said anything, right? But by the end of the call, I would get all of this praise like, oh, you really solved my problem. I was like, I didn't say anything, right? I didn't say anything. I just provided the space. I Said a couple of mm-hmm and uh-huh. I normalized their distress, which is quite similar to what a facilitator does, right? Like they provide the space, they provide a great listening ear, they provide like certain questions that they ask to gauge certain responses and to get you thinking in a certain way. So that was exactly my role in the distress line in a one-on-one conversation, right? I barely said anything. And it's so touching that by the end of it, people think that I helped solve their problems. And that's kind of like what I do as a facilitator now. Like, it's all in your wisdom. It's the group's wisdom, right? It has nothing to do with Manal. And in a one-on-one session, that's exactly what it was, right? Like, you have these solutions to your own problems. Manal is just here to help, right, in her really, really small way. And, um, it always shocks me when When people praise me for helping solve their issues, because I was like, I don't, I had nothing to do with any of that. That was all you.

And it's so funny because on the one hand, yes, of course. Yes, now that you're saying it, yes, of course. As facilitators, we don't do much of the problem solving. We hold the space and we ask the right questions. And as you spoke, I was also thinking, yeah, these are also the friends that we need in our lives, right? Those who are not trying to solve our issues.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You're just there to listen and to drop a few mm-hmm and aha and then get all the love for having helped a friend. And when you say you normalize the issue, what do you mean by that?

I normalize the issue. So this is where my interest in the topic of fear comes in, Myriam. I think one way to normalize folks' issues is by being vulnerable and by Telling your own personal story. And so that's kind of the fear that I had to get over when I started facilitating these workshops. So a lot of the times people that came to these workshops, they came— it took a lot for them to go there, right? Because a lot of people don't like to admit that they have— that they suffer from mental health issues, right? Even though we all do. And that's what I mean by normalizing, right? Let's just put it out there. Like, we all have distressors, we all have anxieties. So one way to do that is just to like make that blanket statement, right? And the second way that I've done that in my workshops is I've told personal stories. And a lot of the times people are shocked at the stories that I tell. And so they kind of look at each other and look around and, oh my, she is— is this real? Like, is she saying what I think she's saying? And I don't tell it in a serious manner. I tell it in a very like this is what happened. Like, this is my experience, right? Like, there's nothing to be ashamed of. I totally destroy that element of shame, that element of guilt that comes with it. Because for one part, we feel ashamed that we have these emotions. Sorry, we feel bad and we feel sorry for ourselves for having these emotions. And then we add on an extra layer of guilt and shame for feeling sad about these emotions, right? So it's kind of like these double layer. And so I destroy that element of shame. Like, this is normal. These feelings are normal. So you need to eliminate that element of shame. And then I just talk about my own personal experiences. And it's, it's quite beautiful, Myriam, to see how folks start opening up. And like, for the most part, they, they say, they explicitly say, I never thought that I would ever say this. Right. And I'm shocked myself. And I've been to these workshops for so many times. And there's always like this one rugged guy who doesn't really display emotions. And he's saying that he would never say this. He never said this ever. But you're saying this in a public space with strangers that you met for the first time. Like, it's just so— like, sometimes I try to hold back not crying during these sessions because I know how freeing it is for someone to just let that go and for someone to say that. in a session that I'm facilitating is the reward for facilitating those sessions. And when I was doing those mental health workshops, Myriam, like, that wasn't my job. Like, this was all volunteer basis. I was not getting paid for it. So that was kind of like my reward, to give someone that level of freedom that they could vent something like that. And I don't know how to describe it, but to give someone— not necessarily to give them, but to provide a space where they could vent that and have that little bit of freedom is totally rewarding.

I bet it is. And I wonder whether it's actually easier to open up and to admit this vulnerability in a space where, A, it's normalized. So we know we are all here because at least deep inside of us, otherwise we wouldn't be here. We do feel that we have these emotions as well. Otherwise we wouldn't be there. And knowing that most probably we don't have to meet these people again. Because I think showing emotions and especially shame, shame and guilt is something so cultural and intimate. So someone's shame is something, we feel shame, I think, towards those who are closest to us easier than to a public, right?

Yes. Yeah. And you're definitely right about that. Sometimes those closest to us, we don't necessarily tell our deep, dark secrets to. And I think that's one reason why you hear about all of these interesting stories about Uber drivers, right?

Yes.

And how Uber drivers, you just vent to them or they vent to you because you'll never, ever see them again, right? So there's so much to be said about that. There's so much to be said about that, Myriam.

Yeah.

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And how have you then pivoted from holding space to these almost, yeah, self-help groups or almost therapeutical groups? No, before we are getting there, let me ask a different question, because you explain how you open the space and how you provide the environment where everyone can be vulnerable is by going first and by normalizing. So, hey folks, listen up, okay? Nothing to be ashamed of. This is all normal. I feel that, you feel that, and even if you don't admit it, you will feel that too. I get that. And then how do you close it? Would you keep this lightness throughout the session and then close with this lightness? Or is there still a moment where you have to kind of close the box, show gratitude for the space, that this is not normal to share that much?

I think most people know, like, outside that space not to— well, they don't feel comfortable sharing it. And for one of the sessions that I held in a religious group, actually at a mosque, and religious groups actually don't like talking about mental health issues, right? As you can imagine, there was a lot of pushback to hold these sessions. But it was quite interesting, Myriam, because when I finally did get around to actually publicizing these workshops, there was so much interest in it, simply because topics like this aren't discussed, right? Because in religious spaces, you're not anxious, right? Like, you're supposed to show gratitude to your creator, right? Like, all of these really outdated theories, and even in our holy spaces, scripture, like there's actually a verse that says human beings are born anxious, right? So I've taken those types of things. And it actually says, like, when you look around the world today at all of the issues that we're facing, right, it's hard not to be anxious, right? And so in our religious scripture, it actually says human beings were created anxious. And a lot of these folks that are in these religious spaces, they don't factor in verses like that, right? Because we're supposed to be grateful, and we're supposed to be all these sorts of things. But after having like this, this interest in this topic, there was actually a need for these sessions to be held monthly. And so now, like, these sessions are held monthly. And so because folks know that you can't be this level of vulnerable in every workshop that you attend, right? And so this provided folks with a safe space once a month to come and be vulnerable and share their anxieties, right? And share a space where they could vent and where they could talk about these issues in a safe space. And so I think a lot of people know not to be this vulnerable in every space that they enter. And so that's why there was a need for these sessions to be held and someone like me to help facilitate these sessions that could offer a space where they could be vulnerable and safe. I think that's really important. Yeah.

And I can only imagine this extra layer of shame that comes in, or even guilt, that admitting that we're anxious within any institutionalized group as religion, because the moment where you admit being anxious, could it be interpreted as a lack of trust? If I'm anxious, then maybe I don't trust that God will take care of me. If I feel these feelings without— towards my partner, towards my family, does this mean that I doubt their love and I don't trust their support? So I think there's a lot of related to these feelings, a lot of expectations and maybe non-verbalized expectations.

Yeah, I never, I never really thought of it that way. Maria, you're raising really interesting, interesting questions. But I think a lot of people don't like admitting that they're anxious because Because exactly what you just said, right? Like, if I admit I'm anxious, I'm also admitting that I don't have faith in my Creator, right? Because I don't feel like He'll take care of me. But like, God Himself says that human beings were born anxious. And I feel like if you're not even the slightest bit anxious after watching the news, there's something seriously wrong with you, right? Like, you have to be anxious. There's so much horrible things happening. And if you're not even slightly remotely feeling a certain type of way after watching the news, not that I recommend I don't recommend watching the news all the time.

Or feeling anxious all the time.

Yeah. Or feeling anxious all the time. But like all change agents, right? Like that's why they're change agents, because they feel this anxiety of we need to change something, right? Like this world can't go on the way that it's going on. We need to help drive change, right? Like you need a little bit of anxiety to help fuel that change process. Right. And so that's how I like to think about anxiety. Like, I don't think all anxiety is a bad thing, but I definitely do think we need to talk about, like, anxiety not running your life, right? Yeah.

And I think there's, as you said, I totally plus one that, that anxiety is something positive. If we boil it down, we need it as a human species. We need a level of anxiety to push us towards our limits. If we wouldn't be afraid of anything, then we might be too comfortable to change something.

I agree with that, Myriam. Like, even workshops work, right? And never done before. Like, I need to create a community where all facilitators can benefit, right? Like, you need that level of, like, I need to make some type of change happen, right? And then that's what fuels your passion, and that's what fuels you to create, you know, something beautiful. And I think, like, most art is like that. And we could go on and on about this. Like, I think there's definite benefits to anxiety, but I also think that we need to manage it, right? And that's why we have to things like meditation and movement and painting your boyfriend's house, right? So all of these, all of these things that help, help manage our, our levels of anxiety.

Yeah. And I think how we speak about them and the place we allow them in our lives, as you said, I love the concept of normalizing as you explained it. It's okay, it's there. It's just someone who lives with you in your kind of house between your ears. And give them a space, not too much. And sometimes they're shouting, oh yeah, thank you for the reminder. Might want to prepare a little bit more. Might want to watch out not to do any mistakes. And that's enough, right? Just like we speak to our moms.

Yeah. Yeah.

Always there with an extra portion of worries. Yeah.

I love the idea of normalizing it. And I've definitely had to jump over a lot of like fear hurdles in order to get to a space where I feel comfortable just talking about my experiences. But I genuinely feel like when you are yourself, like genuinely and unapologetically yourself, it's a sort of invitation to let others be themselves as well. And that's kind of like what my experiences have shown, right? Like the minute you're yourself, Manal, and you get over that fear of being yourself, then it's such a beautiful invitation. that lets other people be themselves as well.

Yeah, and there's this beauty that we sometimes forget. I'm thinking of a dancing workshop where we had to— I need to share that— where we had to stand in rows facing each other in 2 groups, and it was solo jazz dancing. And I love to dance, but I don't really feel comfortable dancing by myself. I love couple dancing.

Yeah.

Yes, I have a leader who leads me and I love to follow. I'm the perfect follower. Well, still something to learn, but you understand the thing. And there I was in this solo jazz dance class and I felt so uncomfortable. And then I looked at the row in front of me and they had to dance for us. And I realized that those who just made me smile and feel good about watching them dance were those who I didn't even look at how they danced. They were just those who enjoyed themselves and dared to be themselves. And those who were kind of maybe tense but had the perfect moves, I didn't feel that spark. And I had this huge lightbulb moment beyond dancing that, okay, it's not about how we are doing things or what we are doing, it's how we show up. to do them. And that night I solo danced.

I wasn't the dancer.

I was just enjoying it because I realized nobody cares about how I dance anyway, especially not when I dance for myself, right? And I cannot step on someone's toes.

Oh, that's beautiful, Myriam. And that's exactly a lesson that one of my friends tries to teach me, except she's a phenomenal dancer. So, so I have to take her advice with a grain of salt. But for her, dancing is true liberation. And she's like, you don't have to even be slightly or remotely good. It's just the whole idea of movement and just being comfortable with your body and being at home in your body. And she's preaching liberation about dancing, whereas me, I'm exactly like you. I don't like to solo dance. And I don't think I'm a great dancer as well. But she's definitely allowed me to see that there is liberation and freedom in just being at home in your body and not caring about what other people think. And I talk about fear a lot. And she's like, Manal, if you want to, like, totally embody fearlessness, like, be the first person on a dance floor at a wedding. And then you've embodied this fearlessness because that's true liberation.

Yeah. And you will spark and invite others to follow just by being there.

Yeah.

So how do you bring that to the workshops you're now doing for clients? Because I think that what you used to do, or what you're doing in your voluntary life, you're the same Manal, and you're this authentic person. So I can hardly imagine that there's much that you do differently. When you work for clients, maybe in corporates, in these more serious— well, serious workshops, maybe not, but maybe more— how would you call them? How did you make the transition?

Well, it's somewhat similar, Myriam, but in a more— I'll use your word— serious context. So right now I'm mostly, especially in this past year, I've mostly been doing community development projects and Some of the sessions, it's folks who look like my mom, and I never thought that I would facilitate sessions with people who look like my mom and who want to see their community impacted and changed, simply because when I was growing up, I lived in project housing. And my mom, not that she didn't take an interest in our community, but because like there was nobody that she could relate to. But now in my sessions, like, people feel comfortable talking in the sessions and they talk sometimes in my language. And it's— I don't know how to describe it because I never saw someone who looks like my mom be in that type of space and talk about these issues that would impact the community. But now that they see someone who looks like me, They feel comfortable entering the space. They feel comfortable sharing their ideas for a better community, their ideas on how to impact the community, their level of confidence in talking about these issues, which my mom is not confident at all speaking in English in any space, right? Even though she knows English, like she just feels a little intimidated. She feels uncomfortable because she's never been in a facilitated session with someone who is facilitating the session who looks like her. Me, right? And so I show up in that type of way, not necessarily in the way that I showed up in my mental health workshops, but in the way of looking like Manal, I guess you can say, which is somewhat similar to the mental health workshops because it's showing up as myself. And it's quite beautiful to see those that are impacted by the decision be in the decision-making process, and which is what I one of the reasons why I facilitate these community development projects, and one of the reasons I facilitate period, right? Like, I facilitate participatory decision-making, and if I'm facilitating community development projects but people from the community aren't part of the facilitated workshops, then I question how impactful these changes are. And so seeing people from my community be in facilitated workshops and do like a consensus-building workshop and then take these ideas and then go back to their communities and impact the change. Like, that is very powerful to me, and that is one of the reasons why I'm a facilitator and why I love participatory decision-making. So if that makes sense, Myriam, I know I've kind of—

It does. There's so much to unpack. And although I would have loved to dive deep into the topic of visual appearance, someone who looks like my mom versus someone who looks like Manal, I will now decide to leave this box there and maybe come back to that another time. Because I think this, what you mentioned about the participatory decision-making with and for people like your mom, independent of their maybe visual appearance, they look like her, but maybe more they are like her in a way that they don't feel confident in speaking English. They might not feel confident, period, as immigrants, maybe from a lower social class. And then to guide this process, to first build this confidence for them to speak, To be part of the decision-making process, and then even to go a step further to become an ambassador of this decision, and then a changemaker. So this is a huge growth path that you set in motion. What does it take, and what would you have wished to know before you started?

What does it take? It's quite heavy, actually, because sometimes I feel like I'm not impacting as much change as I'd like. And then sometimes I feel like I'm giving myself a lot more importance than I do have. In terms of what do I wish I had known, I think part of this process is getting over my own self-doubt and my own lack of confidence, I guess you can say. I think there's a lot of intersections with me, like just growing up, like hijabi, Muslim, Black, like all of these intersections. And I think I've always been in spaces where I've been the minority, and that's kind of impacted, I guess, my confidence in a way. And I'm totally like in that space every time I enter any sort of setting that I have now. But I've also learned that I think everybody thinks they're the underdog, like regardless of what they look like. I just think everybody thinks they're the underdog. And I think I use my intersections as one reason why I believe I'm the underdog. But I think this is one reason why I've felt a spurt in my confidence levels, just being aware of the fact that everybody thinks they're the underdog, Manal. And everybody comes with like the self-doubt and like all of these anxieties. So just enter a space and be like your full authentic self and just try to empower people as much as you can. And one of these people are— I love that. you know, people who look like my mom, right? Whenever I entered like these community development workshops, and everybody in general, right? And so like, that's one way that I approach these situations and one way that I get over my fear.

So how do you empower this? How do you facilitate this empowerment? Because it's not only vulnerability, I guess. It's Because confidence maybe grows with vulnerability and realizing that we don't die if we are vulnerable.

Most of the times, especially when I was first starting off, Myriam, I didn't feel empowered at all, but I faked it. I totally faked it. I psyched myself up. I meditated before my sessions. I, you know, sniffed some essential oils. I kind of told myself some affirmations. And eventually, even when things do go awry, you start to realize that it's not the end of the world, right? Like, you don't die. And you don't die. And that sort of grows on you. And I feel like that's a large part what happened to me, at least. Like, I just— and every— after every session, you just expand your comfort zone just a little bit more, right? And I think people really pick up on this energy. And I've gotten to the point where Like right now I'm just all about like, let's boost this person up, right? And I feel like people really pick up on that energy and they kind of sense that genuineness and like finding like even if it's like a microscopic detail about someone and just growing that. And that's kind of what I do for all of my facilitated sessions. So it's, it's whether that's, you know, putting them in breakout rooms and giving them opportunities to, you know, grow this like microscopic detail about themselves, whether it's using certain tools and methods that allows them to be a little more vocal about the issues that they're facing. And hopefully by the end of it, like, they'll become a little more empowered, right? And, um, but just generally, Myriam, I think people sense the energy that we bring into, into a session as facilitators and as people in general, right? Like any space that you enter, right? And Yeah, so, so that's kind of like how I, how I empower folks.

Thank you for staying tuned and listening to the show. I appreciate your attention as I know how busy you are. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and engage by sharing your comments and thoughts and visit workshops.work to download the one-page summary. I'm looking forward to seeing you back at the next episode, and I wish you a fruitful day.