176 - Facilitating Feelings or: Creating Magic with Card Decks with Nick Kellet

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Myriam Hadnes. And with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Nick Kellett, founder of Deckable. And we speak about innovation. We speak about facilitation decks and card decks, and what it means to create magic moments that bring people together around a shared purpose.

So stay tuned.

And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one-page summary. And now lean back to be inspired. Hello, Nick.

Hello.

Welcome to the show.

Thank you for inviting me. It's fun. I'm excited to be here.

Yes, me too. And I'm curious to see what will come out.

Who knows? It's a little, you know, it's a random meeting generator. It's just going to flow out the way it's going to flow.

Yes.

Nice one. And let's start with an easy one just to get comfortable. When did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

Well, yeah. I mean, I think of myself actually more of as an inventor, but inventing is facilitation, right? So I invent for a living and it took me a long time to actually say that. Like maybe I knew I was doing or I didn't know what I was doing, but actually to actually— normally as an inventor or prior to this, I would say I'm making this or I'm making that. So I wasn't abstracting to say I make things. This is one of the things I'm making, right? But I did it because after inventing a few things, this incredible like one-trick pony problem. If you're an inventor, like, is that all you got? What next? What do you got? Like, there's this pressure. And so I abstracted myself from doing one project to say, this project defines me, to I'm defined by the fact I invent things. And inventing is facilitation, right? It's like I walk through life, see a problem, and then start to solve it.

So finding a solution for a problem is the facilitative process to making it easy?

I think so. And I'm used to a lot of blank looks. Like the number of people that have said to me, you know that project you were working on when you first told me about it 3 years ago? I really didn't understand it, but now, wow, it's really cool. And I was like, yeah, it's a good job I didn't say this. I don't know, I never say this as a reply, but it's a good job I didn't, like, you know, listen to your first feedback and stop, right? It was true, like that blank look when you first describe something to someone and they're like, I don't see the need for that. I don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, in that case, I'll just stop then, shall I? But, you know, if you, you have to have incredible self-belief and you have to be really bulletproof to like, you know, all of this feedback so that, you know, you keep going, you don't get sideswiped by the things that come your way. Yeah.

And I wonder, so for me, facilitation is the belief that the group knows it already. So it, the solution is somewhere intrinsically to the group, whereas invention is— would it then be intrinsically in you and it just waits to come out? Is it self-facilitation?

I have inverted that process because I used to believe it was in me, and maybe that was youthful me that had infinite bounding energy just to charge at everything and do everything. I remember, oh, I had it, I started this software product, I sold it to Business Objects. And I ended up inside working for this guy called Dave Kellogg, who's their CMO at the time, super cool guy and very, very smart. And he used to curate things. He never had, not an insult, he never had an original thought. He gathered all these thoughts from everyone else. And then his originality was in spinning the story of assembling all these pieces together. And I felt cheated. in that moment for a little while. He didn't invent this, but the end result of what he put together was better than— I was like, oh, maybe I should try curation and relying on other people's genius instead of having to do all the heavy lifting. So if you think you're the inventor, it's hard work. Whereas if you just listen to what the universe is telling you and the way people turn up and their energy and their ideas, then actually it's not your idea. You're just grabbing other people's ideas. And then they're more like, oh, this looks like my idea. And then people accept it. So people's willingness to pick up their own ideas is much more profound and they don't have to actually translate. It's like, oh yeah, what a great idea. And I've found, and specifically more recently, mindful me, Is more like I sit with it. Like a 20-year-old me would have— I couldn't have handled this imperfection, this thing not— we're not knowing the answer. I would have grounded out and sweated it out and go, that's it, tie a bow on it, it's done. And it would have worked, but it wouldn't be the best answer. Usually the best answer comes from waiting, you know, just let the idea percolate and let people critique it and skillful listening. You don't need that many people to find out if something's good or bad or what you need to do next. People think that you need this massive audience. I don't think you do. I have this cycle of people that I go around when I'm testing an idea. And I try not to go back to the same people too soon. So then I'll loop back to them 6 months later or 3 months later when there's something significant's changed. So then they see it and they go, oh wow, great progress. But if I'd shown them at each iteration, they get bored. So I keep finding new people. And then I keep going back to people that I saw it, you know, 3 to 6 months earlier. And then I get a lot out of that because I can see that, like, I live through the energy that people bring to the idea. I almost think of myself as the shepherd.

Mm-hmm.

Like, specifically with Decibel, I've really, like, I feel it was sort of, I originally thought it was my idea, but it's not. I think it's just coming through me and I'm just holding it Giving it space and then letting other people come and shape it and drive it, and it's got its own energy and its life and its vibrancy. So yeah, there were some things I just think I really would have earlier on. I couldn't have sat with that incompleteness, but that incompleteness was where a lot of them like we've had so many happy accidents because it was under-engineered rather than over, and not not in an engineering sense, but we didn't overthink it, and because I didn't overthink. it, the right ideas just kind of came into play.

It leaves space for emergence.

Yeah.

And it leaves space for all these other voices to contribute. And what you just described made me think of successful versus unsuccessful change processes, where there's research that says the most successful change processes have in common that they emphasize on what remains the same.

Which is very counterintuitive to someone that wants to invent.

Yes.

It's like, I want a big, another big idea, look, and people are like, same, same, same, same. It's comfortable, right?

Exactly. And we don't like the big novelty. It's intimidating if everything is different. So what you just described is the curation, bringing all the existing ideas together But together, combined in a new way, is still something new, although it feels as comfortable as the old.

One thing I've learned is if you innovate, if you have your core innovation, it's counterintuitive, you don't need any more. I mean, that's how you end up getting displaced 10 years later if you didn't continue to innovate. You don't need to over-innovate. So for example, with Deckable, our core innovation is to digitize card decks, right? But I always fall back onto this metaphor that we are trying to be Audible for decks, right? And so I keep saying to myself, we have all this, that's where our innovation is. We don't have to innovate, we can just copy Audible.

Hmm.

And I tell people this and it makes people smile and it gives them a lot of comfort. And I say, If I don't know the answer, I just ask myself, what would Audible do? What does Audible already do? We'll just copy that. We don't need to innovate. Innovation should be constrained to your core competency, your core point of being, your raison d'être. What's the core thing you're trying to do? Innovate there. You don't need to innovate in every single way possible. Because to your point, if you embrace that, the thing you're creating becomes more like other things, and therefore it's more palatable to more people. It's not this whole swap out that's like hard to swallow. It's challenging, whereas it's more similar, it's easier to palate.

Yes, and I think we have to trick our brain because our brain, when we are looking for solutions, We, as being risk-averse animals, we don't want to die.

Right.

We're looking for the past strategies that have helped us survive. But to truly innovate, we cannot rely on our past strategies. So if we're asking, how can we innovate? Or how can we find a new solution? We're asking the wrong question for the way how our brain works. So by asking a different question, or as you define it, okay, how would Audible do it? How would Superman do it? We're tricking our brain, and only then we can find new solutions.

We all need to find our Superman, right? Who is the person you're trying to be like? And then how are you trying to be different from that person? Because most of you can be just like Superman, except for, oh, we just add kryptonite, right? Then we have a solution, right? You only need to have one point of difference generally to succeed, right?

Yeah.

Then it's like, oh, I can see you're like X, but you've got this, right? Because we think in metaphors, right? So if you actually say we're like Audible, but we do this cool thing. Oh, wow. I don't— and I don't like— when was the last time you ever went to a movie And you said to him, well, it was like, and it was situated here. And there was this guy that you don't say, you don't try and describe the plot to anyone. You say it was like Jaws, but it was in the jungle. Oh, cool. I get it. Right? Like, it was always like this movie, but with that slant. Okay. And ideas are like that. It's how we communicate. We never— if you try and tell someone the whole story, they're like, okay, you lost me 5 minutes ago. What do I know? I know what you're talking about. I mean, it's sad that words don't mean anything anymore, but they don't.

And I think, so yes, it's something that we can connect to, so to save time and to have the context and something we can emotionally relate to. Because when I hear Audible, I know the experience that I have with it.

Right. So when you pick your Superman, Audible, make sure that it's an experience that people have positive associations with. If you said it's like the dentist, People will be like—

The dentist, but it's fun.

You go to a party and tell people you're a dentist, and people are like, okay, next. And they want to move away because they don't want to talk unless they've got toothache in that moment, right? But if you pick a positive experience to be like, then people can hang with that, right? If they liked your movie that you were— if they liked the movie you said it was like, you've got them 75% of the way, right?

Yes.

It was like Harry Met Sally, but— right? Oh, yeah, I love that movie. Oh, I see. That sounds cool. And so be careful which metaphors you pick. Metaphors are like the grease that oils the wheels that moves the thing along, right? Your ideas are transmitted freely, more freely, if you pick the right metaphor.

Yes, and can derail with too much oil.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. You think, oh, and you get too many metaphors, and then it's like, whoa, I don't understand what's going on, right? The people who win get the right metaphor, generally.

And I wonder whether this is actually this, the ability to synthesize, to find the easy metaphor in the complexity, whether this isn't a facilitator's superpower. to have all this abundance of ideas and then a few clusters and then boil it down to something that is actually meaningful and can be carried forward and that the group feels related to or feels ownership for.

Right, because when the group leaves that session that day, they say, well, how was your day today? Oh great, we talked about Insert metaphor, right?

Yeah.

Oh, cool. But it's like that, but like this.

Oh, cool.

Oh, great. What a good session. Maybe you should hire that facilitator again, right? It's like, they clearly won't say that because they're going to take their own glory from it. But the facilitator was the oil that made that whole thing happen, right? It felt effortless. That's the skill, is to make things feel effortless. So people come with you on the journey instead of suffering at the Face of a blunt instrument. You get bludgeoned to death with too many ideas, too much information, too many decisions.

So which of your identities came first, the facilitator who helped the innovator, or the innovator who helped the facilitator?

I have no idea. I don't know. It's funny when you talk, you know, you're kind of asking comparative brain chemistry, like how does one person think versus another? Because when, when you say something, I don't think Oh, you're thinking completely differently, right? So we just think, and we think everyone else thinks like us. And so you realize you don't, and then it's like, oh dear. So I realized from— because I've thought about this a lot, that I have this amazingly overconnected brain. Like I can walk through any situation and I see things being connected. And I'm like, and I actually have to throw stuff away. Because everything's connected in my world. And I interface with other people that don't see any connections. And I see connections that lead me to a solution, but then I choke from indigestion from all these things coming at me. And I'm like, that's— and I have to like tear away all these things to not get distracted by them or to choose the 3 things that are the idea. And that's kind of juggling between facilitating and ideation, which is have some more. More confusion, 'cause the ideator thinks everything is, the ideas are cool. And what they don't realize is people choke from indigestion of too many ideas. And the facilitator's like cherry picking. I always work this, I love the idea of a straw man. So like I never, if you have an idea, don't just have an idea, have a straw man. This is how it's gonna work, right? This is our idea. Oh, I don't like that. So you rip the head off and you put a new head on. And those arms aren't right. So you put better ones on. And you keep iterating, but you've always got a working model of what you're trying to create. And then you can always get better because you can always show your work. You can show your straw man to people, and that's essentially your metaphor. My idea is emerging like this. This is how it looks. And people— and then you can see that blank look or that look of excitement.

So is the straw man something like a prototype?

Yeah, a straw man is a prototype. Exactly right.

And so I can relate to the challenge of having too many ideas and to literally connecting everything. And I wonder to what extent this can be a superpower or actually an obstacle in facilitation, because I can imagine that Or I observe myself in these kinds of situations that I then become increasingly impatient, or I'm fighting between my neutrality hat, oh, it's all in the power and the emergence of the group, versus how can you not not see that?

Right, no, I think this took a lot of mindful reflection on my behalf. To recognize that I actually see everything as connected, and I don't find that confusing. But I recognize that other people a don't see like one tenth of everything that I see because it's just and it's not that it's not a super skill; it's actually a curse. So like people can be you could be sitting listening going it's both. You could be envious of like why can't I be like? I'm like you be careful what you wish for because if you have this, there's a lot of. Stuff going on. It's crazy in there. And I've really learned to like tone it down. To be a better inventor, I've learned to tone it down, I think.

I had to—

Yeah. Less signals.

Or planning or designing systems into that prevent myself from implementing all the ideas or rushing to— so sometimes I, I call them brain farts.

Right.

Other people fart, I just have ideas coming out. And I need to have a system to avoid just jumping on that because I fall in love and I get so excited.

Twice I have solved that problem, probably more than twice, but with a person. So I'm like the ideation machine. I kind of set the tone of what we're trying to create, but then I take myself out of the process. 'Cause if I say everything we're doing, I'm trying to push too much in there. And so what I let someone with a more rational, normalized skill set to filter that down. And if they don't get the vision right, or they miss something out, I bring it back. And if I bring it back noisily enough and often enough, it'll make its way in. Otherwise, they do a wonderful— I've discovered Given my skill set, I found this interface with people who basically ignore a lot of what I say. But they're not ignoring it. They're just deprioritizing it to make something manageable and let it get finished. So that's pretty cool. I can think I honestly— we built this Venn diagram product called Analyze that we sold to Business Objects. And there was a guy called Dave. Dave Garvey was just this— he was my interface between me and development. And he just did a wonderful job of ignoring a lot of stuff, which sounds like— he just ignored a lot of the things I said wonderfully, but he did it just right. He prioritized and listened and stopped us from choking on doing too much. One of my favorite quotes from my former co-founder, I was with Listly, Sean, And he said this, he says this all the time, and it's like, it stuck with me. It's like, more startups die of indigestion than anything else. It's like, oh, we can do that. We can do that. And then you just like, gluttony. Instead of saying, yeah, we can do that, we put it on a separate plate. We're not gonna start it yet until I've had this whole meal. I've been for a walk. I've digested. I've slept. I'm ready for some more. Without that control, human nature is like, oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Right? Because you're performing for the customer who's like, I want this, I want that. They don't even know what they want necessarily. They're just expressing things. If you listen to every word they say, you would get distracted and go off in too many different directions. Whereas if you listen to 50 people, you can filter that down and see where's the real issues, where's the direction you should be heading. So if you can have somebody on your team, I mean, that works for me because I've got this super connection, right? So then I've recognized that's a joy and a curse, and I could try and handle it myself, but I've found hire a rational person between you and the development team and they do the filtering. It's worked quite well.

And it almost sounds like a technique that we would use for group work and facilitation.

Yeah, I think it's also like realizing where you— because everything's a spectrum, right? So some people are super ideators and just like over-connectors, and some people are so logical and rational, they won't do anything until it's like They don't see the purpose of doing any of these things. They'll stay with what is. If we could recognize who sits where on the spectrum, we could then pair people up who works better together. That's something I fell into luckily. When Dave and I did that, I didn't even know he was doing it, but I looked back afterwards and I was like, that's what he did. That's really valuable. I don't think that business would've succeeded in the way it did if I'd got involved in every step of everything, because I would've been wanting everything because I was way younger. So maybe these days I'm a bit more— Going back to my Audible thing, decide who you like, decide whose decisions you don't have to make decisions about. It's really easy when someone else has already made that decision. Innovation is something you use sparingly. It's like glitter and sparkle. You just— not like swamp the whole recipe with it, right? Because everyone's going to choke and it feels completely alien to people. This is so different than anything else, right? And it's like that. So you remember that SCAMPER innovation thing where you like— what's the acronym for like subtract, combine, remove, more? I forget the full acronym, but that's kind of the core of innovation is what you always do. You can add something, take something away, amplify something. something, turn it upside down. If you do all of those in one go, you just end up with a mess.

Yes, and I would be curious to hear the story behind Deckable, because at the end, the moment that you do have the metaphor— oh, it's like Audible but for card decks, right? Then it's so easy and everyone understands. And I assume that you didn't wake up or had this under-the-shower moment, oh, you know what, let's do an audible phone card decks.

Only, oh my God, that would be like, that's like idea porn, right? It's like, wake up with this, oh, it doesn't happen that way. Like anyone who thinks ideas happen like that, it's not true. I went on a 3-year journey before I even found the starting point for Deckable. For 3 years, I'd been building this. The metaphor of choice during that 3-year period was an exercise machine for the soul, for the mind. It was like this idea of instead of going to the gym, you would go to an exercise machine to work out all those things. It was pretty good, but the problem is it grew and grew and grew. I kept trying to finish it and think, how do I get to the finishing line? Where can I draw a line around this and say that's a complete product? There were some amazing things in this product, but there was too many ideas.

Sorry to halt. What was the initial problem you tried to solve? So what is it about card decks that fascinated you? Or maybe it wasn't even about card decks.

The original problem we were trying to solve was I was working with a good friend who's a coach, and she basically had all this content she wanted to package up and create recurring revenue. And we looked at the existing online learning platforms and just were like, these are not fun. She's an experiential coach. Meaningful learning experiences, and the existing online learning platforms, which I don't need to name here, um, don't, right? They're not experiences. They're classic teacher on stage talking down to the student.

Bullet list style.

Yeah, right. It was boring, boring, boring, right? So we try to create this much more engaging where the students are participating, and it became more of an interactive survey with the Because the survey tools are not that fun either. So it was like moving things around, making choices. And then in the middle of that journey, I kind of— because I invented a board game, right? So I play a lot of board games still. So I love cardboard. I own a lot of games. And I came across all these card decks and they're like coaching decks. And there's like Oblique Strategies, Brian Eno's deck. And there's just like, oh my God, we could talk for hours on card decks that exist. And I started collecting these. And realizing there were really cool choice mechanisms, like, 'cause I can lay out some cards and go, yes, no, no, no, no, maybe. And so I do a card sort, right? I divide my choices into stacks. And I was like, this is really fun. This is like tactile and engaging and human and real. So that was wonderful. Was it a blessing and a curse? Because I'd added that to what was already there. So my exercise machine now included card decks. And it got bigger and bigger. And after 3 years of building it, it was phenomenal. I showed it to a lot of people and there was just like, the light went on when they saw it, but it was also, there was too much. And so I went, I thought my problem was user interface design. And so I went and hired this UX team, right? And they were phenomenal. They did that rare thing that, you must have heard that old joke of here's my Your consultant comes along and says, here's my watch, tell me the time. Because too many consultants just sell them back exactly what you just told them. Well, they did the brave, brave thing. And they said, what you should do, Nick, is throw this all away and you should just make card decks the core metaphor, not an exercise machine. They didn't just say that. They said, oh, by the way, it should look like this. And it was beautiful. So now I'd seen this beautiful thing. I couldn't go back to this ugly duckling, like poor thing, that I'd made lovingly over 3 years. And there was too many bright ideas in there, but the cool— and they said, look, Nick, you get most excited about card decks compared to the rest of it. So if you just focus on that, that's what we've done. That's what we've built for you here as a mockup. So I'm like, how many days is it gonna take to build this? So they quoted me a number, it was pretty low. And I was like, I don't think they can make it in those days, but I can't really say no to that offer. So I basically got them to build it. And here we are a year later. The estimate was out by magnitudes, but that's irrelevant because the quantitative value of the experience that it delivers is out by even more magnitudes. It's just like— Oh my God, like people, I literally have phone calls with people that like, I can see them like vibrating with excitement about how Deckable is gonna transform their life. And it's like, oh my God, this is such a beautiful, like I showed a lady yesterday her deck, she loaded it, she created it, she loaded onto Deckable and I showed it to her yesterday. She was literally in tears. And I'm like, and she's like, Nick, you're like, I'm like, don't worry. This is the most beautiful gift you could give me. This is my energy. This is my fuel from oasis to oasis. Because when you're inventing, there's often long periods between fuel and energy and rests. To see that was so— that happens a lot. You know you're on the right path. Yeah, I've never— I've invented a lot of things in my life, but this has got 100 or 1,000x over anything I've ever touched before. It's just beautiful. Feels great, a great responsibility. And I actually don't feel like I'm just— I'm more like the shepherd of it now. It's my job and duty to the universe to like bring this to life. It's not really my idea anymore. It's come through me.

So what makes the difference of just another tool, platform, game?

Oh, I think I'm going to quote Seth Godin here. Seth Godin basically said that ideas explode into a vacuum. Well, there are not many vacuums available today because they've been filled. Like, you want to go into a photography app? Flickr did it, and then Instagram came along. I don't think there's any more. Well, it actually went Flickr, Facebook, Instagram. There's no more innovation going to come from there, I don't really think. Most things have been done by someone. So there isn't a vacuum. The need has been filled. Whereas for some reason, card decks have grown. More and more people are creating card decks. They see the value of using card decks in coaching and in spirituality and wellness, but there's been no digital solution. the why of this is because it's not been done well. There's a huge unmet need. And so you show this to people and they're like, oh my God, I want that. I can see my deck in there. Or I can more— you know what I'm shocked as well is how many people have actually turned up and said, I'm going to create a deck for this.

Hmm.

My original vision was just let's go and find all the decks that exist and bring them on. And I even started by reaching out to people whose decks were out of stock. So there was a real pain point. You don't have the money, obviously, or the desire anymore to keep printing this. There is a demand for it. What if we could digitize it? Okay, yeah, I'm in. So we got a bunch of people came on board with that because their decks were out of stock. But along the way, I explained it to some people and they're like, well, I can make a deck for that. And I can point to like dozens of decks that have been created just for Deckable. So that's pretty epic. You realize the energy, the investment, the emotional effort that people have gone through to see this and say, I'm going to now.

Now.

And this is pre-launch. This is like, this doesn't happen. Like people don't go, oh, let me invest in your idea. It hasn't even launched yet. I'm going to go and create something for it. Well, they see that because they realize the energy of the infrastructure. And we have 500 people that have signed up already. We will launch with 250 quality decks. These things are approved. They're not just like, you don't just put your deck up and— these are beautiful decks. I mean, I could spend hours just going through the decks. They're so beautiful. And it's exciting to see that. It's a living thing. It's out of my control. I'm just like— facilitating it now.

What is it that these card decks facilitate? So what can card decks do to individuals and groups?

There are many ways you can use a deck. So decks help you make choices, right? So I'm going to go back to my favorite example. There are 3 decks everyone in the world should have, right? Firstly, we should have a values deck. Because if we live our life true to our values, we'll be less messed up. We'll pay less therapy bills, right? We'll be happier because, oh, I just had a great day today. Everything I did filled to my values. When you don't live to your values, you clash into people, you're triggered, you're angry, frustrated, all those things, right? My top 3 values are creativity, Adventure and integrity. So if I'm doing something every day that's creating, that's adventurous, and I'm feeling that I'm not leaving anything in my wake, no mess behind me, I'm living in integrity, I'm feeling incredibly purposeful. And if everyone knew what their values were and they shared them with everyone else around them, we could actually interface with people much more cleanly because I can speak to your values, you can speak to mine. And we don't rub into each other in the wrong way. So that's a values deck, right? And the way you use a values deck is that there's maybe 60 different values and you go through and go, not me, not me, maybe, definitely me, definitely me, maybe. And you make choices and then you go and you go back to that list until you whittle that down. It's really hard to whittle down to 3 out of 60.

So basically with the app, with Deckable, you can make these selections so you can have different Stacks of cards within one card deck.

Yeah, exactly. And then it's, it's there for you forever. And you can go back to it, you can journal on it, you can share it with friends, you can ask them to see what their values are, right? So that's just a values deck. But there's also a strengths deck and an emotions deck. Because if you know what your strengths are, and you play to your strengths, and surround yourself with other people that fill in your weaknesses, you know, and then also have an emotions deck, because if you can fully express your emotion, So don't shove them inside because that's just going to pay for them later. Bury that down. No, I'm feeling frustrated right now. This doesn't feel good to me. This isn't— I'm angry about this. I'm feeling hurt, let down. Oh, I'm so happy. Look, whatever it is you're feeling, if you express all of that, that keeps you clean, not messed up, not therapy waiting to happen. And I wish we taught these things at school.

Yes.

I wish we had a values deck and a strengths deck and emotions deck. And then we go through life and we meet new people and we do our values align, do our strengths align? Can this person express their emotions in the same way that I need to? Can we interface together? So that's— there's also ideation decks, like how do you create a strategy? How do you— because not everyone's innovative. Well, the decks can help you because they give you tools, like the little tricks that you can use to— there are facilitation decks. So if you're not a skilled facilitator, you can hire a facilitator or you could maybe have a deck that takes you through the process. Not as good as a facilitator, but it's better than having nobody.

Assuming that facilitation was just about the activities.

Right, right. But it gives people a framework. Decks are models and frameworks. You can make them— there's 1,000 different business models out there. Usually that's the quadrant or some kind of grid and a methodology of how to— you can put every single one of those into a deck.

Yes, and it reminds me of the value of an idea is usually, or a solution is usually found in the question to ask and not in the ideas that are generated. So having decks that support the process of coming up with better questions.

Right, totally. And then actually having the answers recorded, because this is what we said the answer was last year. Oh God, I'd forgotten that. That's why we made that decision. Oh yeah, well, it was the right decision at the time, and now look what's changed. We've got to ask a different question and answer it differently. Okay, we're clean. We've actually We didn't behave irrationally last year. It was intelligent. Here's— we've got the log. These are the questions we asked. These are what we answered. Those answers still look valid given last year. But now in 2022, we're going to ask this question and we're going to answer that differently because this, this, and this happened. Okay. So now we need to shift. Okay. Everyone understand? Yeah. Great. Cool. Everyone's with you. And that's what DEX can facilitate. Just that those Packaging up those questions, that knowledge, that process, that questioning, the responses, the journaling that goes with it. It's all simple.

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