210 - Bridging the World of Play and Corporate Life with Pauline McNulty

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Pauline McNulty, and we speak about play at work. And I learned a new perspective about play, which is beyond games and serious play, serious games. So stay tuned. And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one-page summary. And now lean back and enjoy the show. Pauline, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, Myriam.

I am looking forward to Speaking about play at work.

Well, it's my favorite subject to talk about, so I'm looking forward to where the exploration takes us.

Yes, and to some it might seem like an oxymoron, but I think the audience got used to the idea that play is part of work by now.

Yes, I think it depends on the audience, I guess. But yeah, that'd be interesting to explore.

And I always kick off the conversation with the same question. Do you call yourself a facilitator, and if so, since when?

So I don't call myself a facilitator, and it was really interesting to kind of reflect on, you know, what facilitation is and why I don't. And I think for me, it's like not my core trade, if you like. So whilst I create spaces for people to explore things and change, the mission I have with my co-founder Zuki of Playfield is really about helping heal corporate systems by unlocking the power of play. And the methods that we might use to do that are flexible. And so we work with amazing facilitators, we do coaching, we develop tools, all sorts of hosts of methods and tools to help people explore this topic. Yes. So whilst facilitation is part of what I do, it's not what I call myself.

Yeah, thank you. Which makes total sense that it's one of the skills you apply. And I don't know whether I heard it correctly or whether it was— I heard either the power of play or through power play. And it can be a nice kind of play with games, uh, play with games, play with words.

Absolutely. Well, I think you could definitely call certain play power play, definitely, when you have moments of play where things change, people change, and something special happens. So yes, that could definitely be part of it.

And this makes me wonder whether— well, first, maybe we start at the beginning, because play can mean many things to many people. When you say play, and when you say more play at work, what do you mean by that? And how do others react?

Okay, so to answer the first question, when we say play, we, we mean something you deeply enjoy. Um, and that may be rational or irrational to others looking on the outside in, but it's something where you get lost in time. You find yourself— you just kind of find it inescapably enjoyable. And what we find is it's often helpful to people to think about in terms of verbs. So like, think of the activities that you love doing. So there's a kind of whole aspect of like play, which is about, yeah, activities where you lose time, you get caught up in them. And what those are might be cleaning cupboards for someone versus going on a hike with someone else. So it looks and feels different. Like, we're all diverse and play is diverse as well. So that's kind of the doing side. We also think it's really important to think about the being side, so the mindset of play as much as the doing of play. So that would be thinking about approaching things with curiosity, with lightness, with experimentation in mind. And so you might not have a playful task per se, but you can apply a playful mindset to how you go about doing it. And you can see that coming up in various different people.

Would this then mean that a goal is that work will become play?

100%. So I think there's plenty of work out there, we know that, but there's also a diverse group of people out there. And what's play for one person, um, versus work for another in the traditional hard tough. It means that there's ways we can look at work and really reimagine it through this lens, and think about how we collectively look at things that need to be done, or how we approach these tasks, and really continue that transformation to make work more enjoyable. And what I see is that play at work, we hold them often in opposition, and that's kind of one of the common myths. But there's lots of people out there who enjoy their work already, and we're saying there's a massive opportunity for people to continue to find ways and means to enjoy work more.

Interesting. So what happens now for me is I'm thinking of the opposition between games and play. So we're playing games, but what I hear now from you is that's a different context. It doesn't necessarily need to be a game. And maybe it doesn't even need to be collectively, so you can play by yourself.

Hmm, 100%.

So to what extent are you— so how do you do that, assuming that everyone might enjoy different sorts of play and might find their work differently enjoyable? How important is it to then play together or even to agree on the same way of play?

It all depends on the context, I think, and what you're trying to achieve. I think there's space, opportunity for both. So if you think of an example outside of work, solitary play might be reading a book and getting lost in an amazing novel and absorbing all of that amazing narrative and story and letting your imagination go wild. An example of solitary play in the workplace, you could think of an actuary or an accountant solving problems with a spreadsheet, and they just find that super enjoyable. You know, there's points where I, in my past and continue, like, there's kind of problems which need to be solved, and it's completely solitary play. And those within the workplace, there's loads of examples of where people get to kind of work on tasks individually, and they really, really enjoy it. But obviously some problems and/or some unlocking some opportunities are best done together. And that's where an understanding of the ways of play and preferences that people have can be super helpful. And also thinking about invitations to help people come into a space where there's kind of a collective task and a collective play to think about. And there's lots of examples of this where amazing facilitators out there, for example, Lego Serious Play, is a collective way of play that helps lots of people get into a playful mode, look at problems differently, and go about collective problem solving.

So there's— I tried to peel the onion, and I find this fascinating because there's this paradigm shift on the one hand that decomposes or brings together 2 seemingly opposing concepts, work and play. tries to make them one or integrate them with each other. And then there is this individual play where we get into a sense of flow. And then there's a collective play where together we play to solve a problem, like with Lego Serious Play. To what extent is there one that needs to start or to open the door? Because I think that for many organizations, the concept of play might seem odd. And even I grew up with parents who would tell me, Myriam, don't— you're so spoiled that work is not always about fun. Suck it up. And I think the Gen Z, the generation after me, they— for them, it's the most important thing to enjoy work and Work must be play. But how do you create that? Is it more— okay, let me ask differently. To turn work into play, is it about a mindset shift, or is it about a sort of gamification of the work, or looking at work in it? Is it changing the work or changing the mindset?

I think it's a few different things. I think definitely mindset shift in terms of Just even opening up the possibility and seeing work as a collection of activities or verbs, things that need to be done. And just like life, there's lots of things to be done, and people have different preferences around what needs to be done. So viewing it as a collection of people, organisation, collection of people gathered around a common purpose with stuff to be done, And how you allocate the stuff to be done can be looked at through the lens of play and play preferences of the people gathered around that purpose.

Can you give an example?

So, for example, yeah, so I think, you know, you think about a common task that cuts across an organisation is communication, and there'll be different forms, but you'll have natural storytellers and people who are in Functions, or people within different functions, who love to tell stories. And so, thinking about, well, how do we help them do more of what they love, and help the people who are not natural storytellers, who love to maybe listen to stories and share stories, either improve that skill, if that's necessary for their job, but actually, why don't we lean into things that we love, rather than everyone having to have the same strengths? There might be other tasks where it's more about being creative and creating things. Again, thinking about who are the people who naturally are drawn to this, giving everyone an opportunity to play if they want to. But I think kind of really understanding, I guess, from different levels, uh, you know, just asking the question, what do you deeply enjoy?

Mm-hmm.

And thinking about that from the verb standpoint so that it opens up people's minds to the fact, oh, actually I do enjoy this, and I don't enjoy that. That's interesting. And within a team, there's quite a lot of opportunities to say, actually, what do we all— just having that group conversation about what do you enjoy, what do I enjoy, having that awareness. What it looks like will look very different for each organization, but our hypothesis and what I've seen is that not many people are doing that in a deliberate and conscious way.

It almost sounds like a strength-based approach to allocation of tasks or distributing roles?

It's kind of akin to that is where we, I think we would see things getting ultimately. I think a data-led approach and awareness and understanding of how the people in your organization like to play, I think would be super interesting. And leaders sitting there saying, how do I like to play? How do my organization like to play? And then what opportunities do we have to play more? Because it's not that it doesn't exist, I think, is the journey that we're asking and inviting people to come along with us on. And yeah, I think with that understanding and awareness, things happen and things will shift and change.

And it sounds as if then the concept of gamification wouldn't even be needed.

I, I— so how I see gamification is that it's normally the People, when we say play, people say, oh, you mean games and you mean gamification. And we're saying, yes, that is a form of play, but it's just one form. As you highlighted earlier, you said it's not just about games. And there's so much— the world of play is so rich and diverse, and there's different angles and ways you can look at it. I think we're missing out if we just focus on gamification. And I, depending on the nature of the game, well, gamification is often based around people who have competing preference, not necessarily competing with others, but, or competing with themselves. And that's just one form of play and one preference based on the work of Dr. Stuart Brown, who came up with these 8 play preferences, which is kind of a starting point for our conversations. I would say that we're kind of limiting ourselves with gamification. It's a great place to start. It's quite akin to, I guess, natural corporate structures where healthy competition, if it's a healthy system, is part of how things get done.

Good one. And you mentioned the 8 preferences for play?

Yes, absolutely. So, um, Dr. Stuart Brown has written a wonderful book about play, and I would recommend it to anyone who, as a start, like the number one book to read as a starting point. And he introduced from his work around play histories Kind of talking to loads and loads of people about the idea of play personalities. And building on that, the way that we like to think about it is like play verbs. So think about creating, curating, competing, exploring, which could be physical or intellectual, directing, moving, or storytelling or story— Creating.

Fascinating. I obviously— and you mentioned it— I'm thinking of personality tests that, yeah, go in a similar direction but look at different aspects of the personality. And I think play preferences, I wouldn't call it necessarily part of the personality. What it reminds me of, and something that I came across recently is a test on motivation, what motivates you. And I have the impression that that's similar because we don't need— we're intrinsically motivated to play, so we don't need the extrinsic factors that push us, so because we're pulled into it. So it's basically motivational factor.

So it— on the doing side of play, 100%. It's really interesting because it— you've Like touched on, I guess, the starting point for this exploration, which started about a journey for myself to think about, well, what motivated me. I was an executive in a corporate career and things weren't working inside and outside of work for me. And inside of work, performing well, but noticed I was like, had that moment of, oh, I've worked so hard to get here, but is this it? Which often happens to people. Lots of things I did like about my role, but was curious about, well, is there more? And it feels like there should be more. And the light, I guess, in the kind of dark, if you like, the torch that came my way, was late one night in the office. And I was kind of sat at my desk, and I was kind of curious about motivation and culture for myself and for all my colleagues. And I stumbled across a motivation article, which was all about intrinsic motivation. Well, all of our motivators, but putting all the extrinsic, so pay, and all those hygiene factors that we need to be in place for us to feel safe. It talks about 3 primary motivators based on their research. The first one being potential, which is the classic story of why we go to work. So, that's kind of where a role will take you, either in terms of progression, in terms of skills, or bigger, better roles, depending on how you view, or like, um, vertical or lateral moves, etc. So, that sense of fulfilling our potential. And the second motivator was purpose. So, not where a role will get you, but the impact your work will have. And that could be purpose in terms of helping your customers, your colleagues, core purpose in terms of I believe in the role of this organization in the world.

Legacy.

And yeah, and what we've seen with organizations, that purpose seemed to— used to be the domain of charities, vocations, rather than being something that was spoken a lot about in the corporate world. But that has shifted and started continuing to change. And why is that so powerful? It's because It's tapping into the intrinsic motivation of the individuals within that organization. We're wired to want to contribute and want to help others.

Yeah.

And then the third motivator that this model introduced was play. And for me, that was just like the juxtaposition of Harvard Business Review articles sat in my office and the word play being reintroduced in the context of work was just a massive lightbulb moment where I was like, oh my God, I don't even know what play is for me anymore. And the way that they described it was enjoyment of the act of the work itself. And that was kind of sparked my whole curiosity, both for my— first had to start with myself around, well, what do I enjoy? And I did various exercises and things to explore that. And then thinking, well, actually, if I'm feeling like this, and also saw the opportunities around a broader awareness understanding, is that there's so many opportunities to go on a journey to kind of shift the story of why we go to work from not just being about fulfilling a potential, and to build on what's happened with purpose to say, actually, let's think about play in terms of delivering that purpose and potential in a more engaging way.

Yes, I can totally see that. And somehow when I heard purpose, I was thinking of another definition of play that I heard, that play is doing things without a purpose.

Oh yes, so interesting, right?

Because if I'm reading a book that I need to read in order to do my job or to prepare, then there's a clear purpose in reading it. If I'm reading just for enjoyment, there is no clear purpose beyond enjoyment.

Yes.

And I can imagine that there might be pushbacks, or at least mental hurdles, to then introduce work as play, and thereby maybe suggesting that, oh, it's purposeless, you're doing— it's almost a waste of time. How do you bridge that understanding or align that?

So this is a sort of causes much debate, I think, and it's quite interesting to explore. How I see it now, and it may change and evolve, is that I see play always has a purpose. And as you pointed out, I think enjoyment is a powerful, wonderful purpose.

And thank you.

Yeah, we should prioritize it for that amazing, valid, nourishing nurturing purpose. And I don't think we as adults, we often put play on a shelf and we don't prioritize that. So number one, I would say, is an invitation to reflect on how much play do you have in your life, wherever it might be, within or outside of work, and think about how you're prioritizing that just because it feels good and it's so good for you. There's so many benefits. And then the second is that purposeful play Which is, I guess, the way that we're thinking about play at work, is that you've got these people— an organization is just a collection of people, as I said before, gathered around a common purpose. You think there's more enjoyable ways and methods to achieve that purpose. And so it's the kind of the method and the means and the mindset by which you get things done. And it doesn't— whilst they feel in opposition, It depends on how you're approaching something, and it depends on who's doing what and why. I think within organisation, though, we need to be careful, though, that this isn't taken about like just taking existing tasks and reallocating them, because that misses some of the point of play. There's an opportunity there, but I think there's also the point of creating space for seemingly purposeless—

Mm-hmm.

moments and spaces where you genuinely don't know what's going to happen, but you're inviting people to have more free-thinking, immersive, different experiences because it unlocks something. You can't guarantee what the results are, but there's still a purpose.

Yeah.

But you just don't know what that purpose and outcome is going to be. So you can either have an outcome in mind, think about the most playful, most engaging way to achieve that purpose, Or you can say, let's create space where actually the purpose is just to explore, the purpose is just to connect, and that is powerful in and of itself.

Thank you. One thing that suddenly— one word that came to my mind when you mentioned that enjoyment is a purpose, it's like, oh my God, it's all about self-worth. Do I acknowledge that enjoyment is a purpose so I give myself permission to enjoy and to do things for enjoyment. Hence, play has a very important purpose. And then I was wondering how— maybe it's just a mind hacking thing where sometimes when maybe I'm facing a task that is not enjoyable, how can I make it playful? So how can I self-motivate it and find more joy in it? Either through— and then I think it comes back to the types you mentioned earlier. Maybe I'm more of a competitive type, so how can I compete against myself or against the clock or find a colleague with whom I can compete and thereby just inducing a little bit more joy in, in the daily tasks?

I think definitely. I think you just gave an excellent example of like set time trials, etc. There's— once you have an understanding of your ways of play, you can then spot and find opportunities in your daily life to introduce more. So another example for me was, you know, networking is quite a— depending on your view, you may or may not enjoy, but— and business development, for example. But when I think about it as kind of hearing people's stories and sharing stories, which I love, it's a completely different task in my mind. So there is that kind of looking at the same thing through a different lens and saying, well, what's the enjoyment within this for me? And how can I shift and shape it to something that my way of doing this rather than the perceived best way of doing something?

Beautiful. This perspective shift, especially the networking, where networking puts the pressure off. I need to look good and I need to make as many connections. So there is this productivity almost, or efficiency connotation to networking, whereas I'm collecting stories than is about the connection and the deeper level and the quality, and puts the person first. Although it's, yeah, it's just a switch of perspectives to make it more playful. Thank you. How can we imagine you using play or working with teams? Is it then more on the individual level to put on the lens of play and look at our own work? Or is it more as, okay, as a team or as an organization, how can we redefine maybe even roles? How can we collaborate in the different ways so that we allow more play in our daily work?

I'd say all of those. I think this— you touched on it slightly earlier. I think what's interesting to see is that exploring play at work is still very new and emerging. So There's lots of examples of play at work happening, and I think there's a whole sphere where people are engaging with things like Lego Serious Play, improv at work, and bringing in playful practitioners to help achieve specific roles in playful ways. I think that the next step building on those is how do we embed it, as you say, like in individuals, teams, and organizations in terms of go on a journey to understand what play is, because we think there's an awareness and understanding piece, and then look for relevant opportunities to increase play within their organization in a way that makes sense. And that can be done at those 3 different levels. The people ready to do that is more about values than like a certain industry or sector. So the conversations we have with leaders are— there are, they do exist, but I think Within the traditional corporate world versus other emerging organizations, which maybe are more naturally playful structures, more playful that their structures and their setup and how they were born naturally lends themselves to be more playful. I think it's still in the category of brave, forward-looking leaders who are willing to experiment and take a risk and kind of sense that this is a different track and way to look at things. So. We're kind of still building up those conversations. And really our role in the world, as we see it at the moment, as that bridge between the world of play and corporate life, is at that first stage awareness raising. And yes, we have worked with individuals and teams and started conversations in organizations, but it's still very early days because, yeah, people are starting to look, but when it comes to actually saying, let's look at this from a strategic transformational lens, that's a way off in my view.

And I can imagine that especially with such a broad definition of play, it's difficult to put it into a box. And so if we think of Lego Serious Play or improv or other forms of gamified serious games at the workplace, it's— you can hire a facilitator, you do it, you check the box. And then you hope for the best that it will lead to something sustainable. If you work on a paradigm shift where we see play in what we do, then it's a cultural change that is actually—

Yes, 100%.

That needs to happen. And I wonder, triggered by the thought that usually I can imagine when we think of let's play at work, we think of the kicker table.

Oh my God, yes.

We do play at work. We do have the kicker table. And I think the kicker table also has its value because it helps to connect and it helps to decompress and not to think about work for a moment. But then if you consider your individual work as play, and then you still want to take breaks to decompress and maybe think of something else, A hierarchy of play, or how would you rename then the other play, or how do you create mental models so that you can also take a break?

Yes, so I think with the way we see it, there's 4 ways that you can think about play at work. The first being the space, and physical or virtual, but the space being how does that space invite play or not. And does it create that feeling? So often people will say, oh, you mean Google Slides? And we'll say, yes, if that's your form of play. It's quite an infantilized view of play, and for some people that might be quite comfortable. If you're that way inclined, we're not saying don't do that, but we're just saying that it's got to suit your culture, and also it might not be for everyone in your organisation. But if you think of spaces that you go into, You will know whether they're going to make you feel light, they're going to make you feel curious, they're going to make you feel like you want to— you would feel relaxed and be able to do your best. So we'd say like the space can invite play or not. And so being conscious about what type of space you want to create. The second would be play for, you know, a specific purpose. So that is where we would say you've got a problem, You want to come up with a strategy and use a form of play to be able to kind of get there. And so that is kind of a collective, okay, let's get here from— how do we get from A to B? And what play methods are out there that would help us get to A to B effectively? And that's where we see a lot, as you say, people bringing in people, and that's great. And what we'd love to see more of is people embedding that into not just the preserve of offsites. Or bigger tricky problems, but more about the day-to-day, gather people and solve a problem, and embedding those skills within the organisation, as well as having people come in to help that. The third way would be culture. So, we mean like behaviours and ways of doing things. Again, you will know how an organisation feels and how people interact, whether there is that lightness. Is humour encouraged or is it discouraged? You know, there are different aspects. of culture, like behaviors, which will be more or less hateful. And the attitude to failure, all of these things. Again, we're seeing lots of shifts in this direction, which are really positive, around reframing what failure looks like, failing happy, looking at the learnings, what are the gifts around failure, so that people accept and kind of encourage that experimentation and creativity, which is needed for innovation.

Mm-hmm.

And then the fourth way is the act of the work itself. So that's where we've kind of explored quite a lot. But again, that would be more on the doing side as well as the kind of the culture thing, the being side, and it's the interaction of all of these. And within those four ways of looking at play at work, absolutely, we would— I kind of go back to what we said, Before, think about different forms and methods and types of play that you need. And that includes spaces for people to relax and recoup. And that, again, I'd say, is a very valid purpose and needs to be built into effective— because what we're trying to ultimately, we're trying to help people be at their best.

Mm-hmm.

Both for themselves and for the kind of the collective purpose. And that, that means humans, we need to rest, recover, recuperate. And, and that should be built into your thinking about how you design your organization.

It almost sounds like after the learning organization, then it would be the playing organization.

I would say that to be a learning organization, effective learning organization, you need play. So I would say this is a very, you know, ultimately we'd like to be able to say, right, well, we can describe the attributes and the vision for like a playful organization, and many organizations will have this. I think play is, we see, the most natural and most engaging way to connect with each other, to create, and for continuous learning. And if you think about when you learn best, how you retain information, how you think, how you see it in children, it doesn't stop when we're adults, that, you know, if you're engaged and you're enjoying what you're doing, you're more likely to have a successful learning outcome. And we're seeing again lots of shifts in the L&D space that are recognizing that traditional classroom environments aren't always the best designed from a user experience standpoint and for effective learning outcomes.

Yeah. And still we are so used to it. to this form of learning. So how do you help people to overcome maybe the barrier of, I don't want to play, I play at home, I don't need to play at work? How do you invite them to play in a risk-free way so that maybe also those who don't associate play to something— I can imagine that if someone didn't have a happy childhood and doesn't have this Maybe positive association with play. There could be potential trauma. How do you invite adults to play?

So I think there's a kind of a few different things there. I think the first is it's an invitation. So there will be people for this way of looking at organization won't resonate, and that's absolutely fine. This is an invitation. So for people who want to see opportunities in this space and want to explore it, that's great. If you don't, fine. Like, it's not saying it has to be done this way. Although I guess my— I imagine there is play happening, but just not using that word. So there's kind of a lot of stigma around the word itself.

Hmm.

We feel more comfortable as adults to give it a different name. I think for adults, I think there's kind of different ways, and it's about sensing and judging for that audience. what would be appropriate, but there's no point of role modeling, you know, showing up in a playful way and creating, you know, small moments of play and inviting people in. I think there's something about creating a safe environment and, you know, psychological safety, giving ourselves permission to play. And I think, you know, we see part of that as education around doing, you know, Myth-busting around, you know, just talking to people about it helps people before you engage in the play, I think, can help people feel safe.

Mm-hmm.

So, for example, talking about the fact that play doesn't mean just one thing, play and work aren't necessarily opposite, and, you know, that it's not only for children, and that actually if you invite people to share stories of already how they are playing, they will say, oh, actually, yeah, I've Yeah, they will be playing in different ways in their life. I think for the trauma piece, the way that I see it is there's lots of things in life where we could be triggered because of past experiences. And yes, for some people this might be a trigger, and I see those triggers as having awareness that it might happen, and then it's about thinking about what are the safeguards generally in place for an organisation, whatever the trigger might be. And so that goes back to the kind of— a good, healthy organisation should have ways and means to support people where they have triggers from inside or outside of work that impact their ability to connect with others and need to work through something. So what we've seen, obviously, with the whole rise of wellbeing and thinking about wellbeing at work is provisions. For people to get the help, specialist help they need. So I think like looking after people in the moment, but then referring them to an appropriate expert, whoever that might be. But also, I guess, to help prevent it is communication before anything, so people know what's happening and they have a choice and a method to raise concerns or opt out. In a way, that's the point.

Makes total sense. I had another question in mind. I have 2 questions in mind, actually. One is about the readiness of an organization to enter that stage. It sounds like it's not beginner level. You cannot, and maybe I'm wrong, but you cannot walk into a toxic organizational culture and then transform it into a playing culture. So what would be the prerequisites that you would check in order to say, okay, we can do something and we can improve it even more? Or maybe I'm wrong and you can't.

So yeah, yeah. Yes, I, I think it's like with any change or transformation is that If your destination you would like is a playful organization, but you're currently in a— it's currently a toxic organization, if the leadership are ready and truly want to help people go on that journey, play could be part of the way that you get there, and also be about the destination. I often, you know, that whole definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting different results. The point of, with anything, if you're using the same methods to get to a different result, that you need to kind of start using and inviting in different ways of doing things as part of your transformation, rather than running a, you know, a traditional project and expecting a completely transformed organization at the end. But your point around readiness, I think, You're absolutely right, but I think if there's a will and a desire from people, and there's an intelligent approach to change, which is not rushed, but it's invitation-based, and looks at how do you invite people across the organisation, not just top-down, all of the good things about change management are deployed, and that people go on that point of, let's start with awareness, let's think about, well, what is the desire for the collective, what's the desire for the individuals? And then how do we give people the knowledge and the ability to be able to do this in a way that's sensitive and appropriate for our culture? But I think, because you use the word toxic in that particular example, I think if you can get people to see the human behind the colleague and drop their egos, play is really powerful at dealing with that sort of environment if you've got the setup right.

This is very true. And the toxicity comes from the fact that we forgot to see the human behind the colleague or a role. Yeah.

And also, when people adopt the roles, they adopt different behaviors. Often, you people, because you go into work, you know, there's certain behaviors you might display at work which you wouldn't do in your normal life, but because it's in the context of I'm serving this organization, which just doesn't really exist, but, um, in a tangible way, it's that because you're acting on behalf of the organization, certain behaviors have become acceptable.

Yeah. Anyway, I just realized about the concept of play, it's also— and I think you mentioned you can try it on— that if we just invite to, to test it So what if you just try a little part of your work to look at it from the lens of play and try it for a day and see what happens? So you can really approach it in very small steps. And so I wonder whether you have maybe an example and advice if someone thinks like, oh, I can use a little bit of play in my work. What can we do to maybe even start with ourselves?

Oh yeah, and that is the best place to start. So the things I would recommend, um, keep an energy diary for a week or so. This came from Design Your Life book, but it applies to— if you think about play and what it does in terms of its impact for us, it will kind of shift your energy and your mood and I did that, you know, and at the beginning of my journey of play, and it's really enlightening. So you will then see which activities and moments which drain you and which ones kind of energize you. And then that will give you insights and awareness for yourself about what's play for me. I think the next thing is to, you know, just Google the Dr. Stuart Brown book, understand and look at the 8 ways of play. I just remembered, I think I forgot one earlier, which is entertaining, obviously amusing, you know, the joker. the traditional form of play. Just read those descriptions of the ways of play and say, which ones do you identify with?

Hmm.

And from that, then go to say, just hold a question of, how might I introduce more exploring into my, my daily life? And I think the question— holding questions and being curious is the best way because There's so many different ways people could do this. I think it's more about the strategies and techniques to explore it and find your own answers are more interesting than, oh, do X, Y, and Z more specifically. So I think those 2 things combined, having like a bit of a better understanding of the vocabulary and the ways of play and what it could look like, particularly as adults, we're kind of reeducating ourselves. And then also— Using a method to gain awareness of where you've got play or not play will unlock a certain amount for you.

Yeah. And what I just realized is that it's about the micro adjustments to our attitude and how we do our work that can turn it into play. Because I heard my mother in the back of my mind already, oh, now so you're only doing the tasks that you enjoy, so you're playing all the time. And you neglect all the work that you're not enjoying because that's not play. And what I hear you saying is it's not about not doing what's not enjoyable, but finding a way to add something that helps us to turn it into play and therefore make it more enjoyable, depending on our preferred type of play.

I would say yes. So that, I think, is an opportunity that exists like now, tomorrow, go for it. I think what I would also encourage people to do is that when you're looking at career job changes, you need— I would suggest that play is part of that decision-making process. So when I think about my career decisions, and from a very young age, I was always very driven, ambitious from a teenager. is that I chose things where you go back to that motivation model. I made decisions on how to maximize my potential, which is not a— it's a really valid, powerful motivator, but it's maybe a motivator I overplayed. I was successful with it, but then I didn't really think about my other motivators when making my decisions about what job to do and which would be sustaining for me. So I would invite people say if you were looking at a job, and possibly particularly if you're doing a career change position, is to first say what percentage, you know, roughly, of how am I motivated by potential purpose or play. Then to say, how are these options for jobs, how are they going to meet these motivators? Am I going to fulfill my potential? Am I going to have a sense of purpose? And will I actually enjoy the work itself?

Hmm.

And I think by encouraging people to look at decisions in a more balanced way, and factor enjoyment, and looking at that work, you know, from early, as you say, like maybe different generations are shifting to that more naturally. But I think there's a whole raft of us who were brought up in a paradigm of being successful means fulfilling your potential. Yes, it does. But also there's a lot more to being a fully rounded healthy adult.

Yeah, and fulfilling your potential at the price of suffering, which is maybe a bit outdated. Thank you. What remains your number one facilitation challenge in the world of play and bringing play to corporations?

I'll make this a personal Reflection rather than a— I mean, there's lots of challenges around bringing play, as we've touched on, but from a personal standpoint, I would say, you know, I'm still learning how to play again myself and thinking about ways to bring and integrate it. And what they always say, like, learn what you want to teach. And I think one of the practical things is often when you're creating a space or going into a conversation, whatever type space it might be, whether it's group, individual, is that we have expectations, like, of how we think things should go. And I've noticed that that's really wide for me in terms of what I have a vision of what things should be. And then that whole thing of we only suffer when our expectations and reality are different. So being present to what is, accepting what is, And then working with what is rather than causing unnecessary stress and/or thinking this has failed or this has gone wrong because it wasn't how I imagined it.

Mm-hmm.

And that's my own reality and my own imagination thinking about how things should go. So I think that facilitation piece is often, yes, you're there to facilitate. For me, um, as you know, that's kind of, you have an expectation outcome in mind, but how do you hold that lightly?

Yes, which is a facilitation superpower, right? To be open to the outcomes and that everything is welcome and that it's not for us but for the group anyway.

Yeah, thank you.

Big challenge, I think, for all of us.

Yes, absolutely. And I, you know, the masters at this, you know, oh, it's phenomenal to see.

And then, from your point of view, what makes a workshop fail?

Well, going back to that point of have they really failed is a question of— there's a learning and a gift with any failure. That aside, I think ego is something, different agendas, which, you know, without appropriate discovery of like what's landscape, what's, what's happening for people, I think both before And then during the session, because discovery is not a— what I see more and more is a continual thing, like what's here now, rather than we've done all our discovery and we know exactly how this is going to go. I think being curious about people and really kind of getting under the skin versus surface level, and then egos, and then the strategies, I guess, to deal with those in terms of contracting, etc.

It's interesting because what I hear from that is Basically, if you induce play, it cannot fail, because if you're in play and ego doesn't go together, and play means curiosity, so this narrow mindset also cannot happen, and curiosity and a hidden agenda doesn't work either.

Yeah, that's— yeah. Failure is very— it goes back to that point of expectations.

Yeah.

I thought A was going to happen and C happened. And then, well, because C happened, what can I learn? I'm not saying I'm good at this, but it's kind of something I'm trying to train, like, think about, is that, well, actually there is a difference, but I can't change that. It's happened. So why do we look at C and get curious about C? And then where do we go from C? Rather than getting upset about that, that we didn't get A. Yeah, easier said than done.

Yep, applying the play mindset.

Yeah.

If a team leader is listening and thinks, I want my team to play more, what can they do as a first step?

I think there's a couple of options. You could have to start with a conversation about play. And I think a conversation is a really good place to start because you're not putting people into a space where they might do something that they're not comfortable with, etc. Again, you might be playful already, but I think having that conversation about like what is play and sharing stories of play inside and outside work— what do you deeply enjoy? Tell me more about that. Put people into pairs, get people to share what they learned about each other by just applying this lens and conversation around What do we all enjoy? And then once you have an awareness of how each individual, what they deeply enjoy, and they can do that in their one-to-ones as well as a group conversation, you will then have a better picture of what are the ways to play within the group. And then you can think about the social play, which you already do, and think about, well, how might we think about social activities with more diversity. So maybe using those 8 ways of play and say, actually, we always tend to be kind of just traditionally go down the purple things, but like think about different ways and methods of play to make sure that everyone's kind of getting a diverse social spectrum of play. I think then from a work standpoint, again, if there's collective tasks, what I've seen and heard people doing is like things that can be reallocated between people is quite a board of Post-it notes. Like, people opt in for tasks. I really love doing that. I really love doing that. I'm going to follow the volunteering, which again you see from emerging organizations, the volunteer type model. Again, that's based around like, oh, I enjoy doing that, I love doing that.

And having space for those sorts of conversations will definitely Yeah, which really goes, yeah, goes into the direction of self-organizing teams.

Yeah, they're very compatible.

Beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Great food for thought. Is there anything that you would have liked to share that we haven't touched upon yet?

Oh, just some gifts for the audience I thought about in advance. So if people are curious about the world of play at work, they can listen to the Why Playworks podcast, which is co-hosted by my co-founder Zuki Stewart and Lucy Taylor, um, from the Make Work Play project. And the next thing they could do is join the Playworks Collective. We host free, open-to-all playwork labs. a couple of times a month at different time zones where people can— often lots of facilitators who are either using specific play techniques or curious about play or naturally playful or just interested come with a challenge or a question and a kind of an open space principle of let's explore what this might look like. So that's open to people to join. And the third thing would be if this is again piqued your interest and curiosity, we've got like tools and techniques that if facilitators would love to test, pilot, try with no obligation, they're welcome to have a chat with us and we'll see what makes sense.

Wonderful. And we'll put all the links in the show notes.

Okay, great.

Thank you so much, Pauline.

Thank you very much, Myriam, for having me.

Thank you for staying tuned and for listening to the show. I know how busy you are, and I appreciate that you're sharing your 2 most valuable resources with me and my guest— your time and your attention. If you're looking for more conversation with other facilitators and for a community of practice, why don't you join Never Done Before, the community that I have built And many of my podcast guests are already members. Visit neverdonebefore.org, and I wish to see you there.