299 -Navigating our Edges Through Inclusion-Based & Trauma-Informed Facilitation w/ Maggie Coulter

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Myriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is Maggie Kauter, and we speak about inclusion-based practices and trauma-informed facilitation and How both practices help us to hold space for the difficult conversations and for creating conversations that will hopefully shape a better future. A very deep and vulnerable conversation, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. So lean back and enjoy, and please check out the show notes for further links and information. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast if you enjoy it.

Maggie!

Welcome to the show.

Thank you, Myriam.

I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think our exploration call could have been a podcast episode already. And yeah, learning more about inclusion-based leadership and what you mean by that and the work that you do. And I always start with the same question: when did you start calling yourself a facilitator? And actually, do you?

It is a great question. It made me think for a second because It didn't come clearly or naturally.

Hmm.

I would say it's been a bit of an organic process.

I started off my career in finance and financial technology. So very different from what I'm doing these days and have been for the last, I think it's coming up on 16 years. And so in that role, I did some training, lots of training along the way. And that's not the same thing as facilitation, but I would say that was the door opening for me, is, yeah, what it's like to, to lead and teach and facilitate learning.

I've always wanted to be a teacher. That was my thing way back when, when I was little, I imagined myself being a teacher. And what I like about facilitation is that it's, yeah, it really is, the intention is there, facilitating learning.

Mm-hmm.

As opposed to downloading. And I'm so intrigued by that. So this is a long story. After doing some training in my initial career, I started moving into facilitation when I began my coach training, recognizing first of all that that's one way for a coach to gain some exposure and make some income.

So really, as I said, kind of fell into it and then did some formal training later.

When I realized, oh, I have no confidence in this at all.

So I need to learn something about this. I would say I started calling myself a facilitator about, yeah, maybe 10 years ago, as that just became part of what I do.

Yeah.

So it's a facilitator and.

Love it. I love it. And I'm just intrigued by all the paths that lead my podcast guests to the world of facilitation. And I would be curious to hear about the training you did. What was the element in the training that gave you the confidence then? Or what was the essential bit that also distinguished you from a trainer then, or a coach?

Well, the initial training I did was in a program called The Courage to Lead, which was run by ICA, which is a big facilitation organization, and they have literally written the book on facilitation. So I was, and again, fell into that, happened to be doing a contract at a hospital, and they had these free courses.

So I signed up for the free courses and then worked with them more intentionally to learn about facilitation. So they really gave me a structure and a framework for it. Where it really, where the rubber hit the road, I think, in my facilitation was when I then attended a program run by my mentors in the coaching world, Melinda Sinclair and Dorothy Greenaway.

And they created a program called the Coaching Facilitator's Advantage.

Mm.

And this was the blend of coaching and facilitation.

And so it just spoke to what I loved about coaching, And facilitation.

And I remember very clearly, they actually had an exercise where they had a line, and one end of it was pure training and downloading of information.

The other was facilitating learning and all these steps in between.

And they said, so where are you?

They asked everybody to identify where they are on the line in terms of their facilitation.

I wasn't even on the line. I just sort of stood aside from it and went, oh, I feel like I still— there's so much to learn in this space.

Mm-hmm.

And that was an important moment. And to kind of recognize that, yeah, I don't even feel like I'm, I'm on that line anywhere in terms of my confidence and skill set yet. And there, I will say, part of that has been about learning about facilitation.

And I learned so much from them, both in that program and afterwards.

And also, because we will potentially talk about this a little further, addressing my own trauma around groups. Mm-hmm. So that was a piece that, yeah, I—

being in group situations is very challenging for me for lots of reasons, and I've had to work on that in in tandem to developing facilitation skills.

Thank you for sharing that. I would love to hear more about that. And I have realized very often, being in conversation with others and also looking at what I'm doing, what I'm thriving towards, at the end of the day, we always try to, to solve our own problems, right?

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I always say that to people in our coaching program, that coaching is a Mutually beneficial.

There's no question about it.

Yes.

We get as much out of it as our clients hopefully do as well.

And one of my guests, Juanita Roberson, she said we can only lead our groups to places where we have been before. And this resonates so strongly with me. And it, it's exactly what you're saying, that, um, you had this experience with groups, so you first need to heal yourself and to overcome that, to then really hold space for Also for the groups and to be this courageous leader facilitator.

Yeah. And it's a work in progress too.

Yeah, this work is never done, right?

Nope.

And I think I would be curious to hear about your experience and your journey on that, because what I'm curious about and what I think is so essential, and I think we spoke about that in the exploration call, The trap of projecting our own stories and our own baggage onto the group, especially if we have history with groups or our own trauma. And how can we separate each other or ourselves from our story to really be there?

And I'm noticing that I'm reacting to the, the word of trap, because even in that, I feel like, yes, if we're It can seem like a trap.

And yet even just that language can make us more afraid of what might we be putting into a group, and which can take us away from being even more present.

So I'd almost want to reframe it in a— and I'm not quite sure what way, but as part of the space that if we can acknowledge that.

Thank you. Yes, yes.

We're going to be projecting things all over the place. And so need time and space to hold in all of that and process. Yes.

All of that.

Yeah.

Thank you. Words create worlds, and we don't want to feel trapped. But, um, yeah, build on that.

Yeah.

Although it can feel like a trap as well. So acknowledging that too in the space.

Yeah.

How did you reconcile then with your story about groups and now working with group and holding space, if you feel comfortable sharing.

Yeah, absolutely. I, as I said, it's still a work in progress. So this is something I continue to build and grow.

And it, and it's interesting because my business partners and I have just launched a group supervision program.

And we're fortunate to have a small group to start with because even in that program where we take on new roles, new things come up for me around groups. And that's how it often is, is we choose something that takes us a little bit further each time. And I do think it's a little bit of exposure therapy. Put yourself in groups and see what happens. And talking through it, of course, talking through it always helps just to debrief What happened experiencing success? I think preparation is key for me. If I can be more prepared, it allows me to be more present. I do think I've learned over time that just with practice, I will learn something new. I will gain new wisdom and to trust in that as anxious as I might be. I was also a Toastmaster for 10 years.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Toastmasters public speaking.

Mm-hmm.

That was a real source of Getting over this or addressing that anxiety around groups.

So just that, I mean, that is exposure therapy at its best, getting up in front of a group of very supportive people who only want the best for you and who will clap no matter what you do, which is lovely, while giving you constructive feedback at the same time.

But that Toastmasters is a very healing environment, or can be, and was for me in my experience, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah, and the importance of belonging to a community, I think, has also been so important for my work as a facilitator, to be surrounded by people who, yeah, who are supportive and who allow you to fail in small chunks forward.

Right.

Yes, and help you learn from those. Yeah, yeah, and help you get back up again.

So I guess that this is then also what has informed or led you into the more trauma-informed facilitation. And what do you mean by that? That's another question. What do we mean by trauma-informed facilitation?

I think a lot of people who get into the trauma-informed space do it because they have to in order to succeed in life.

Hmm.

If you've experienced certain things that are significant enough that they impact your way forward, well, we have a choice.

I guess we, we have to address those.

We have other choices as well. But if our ambition and will is strong enough, we may choose to address that. And so I, yes, I've been in therapy for decades and working on myself in all sorts of ways and coaching And learning how to coach and being a coach has been healing in all sorts of ways.

And so I very naturally came into it and didn't actually realize that trauma-informed coaching or facilitation was a really a thing until later. And there came a point where I thought, I'm doing this. I'm already being mindful of trauma. As it impacts people working towards creating positive change. I'm holding space for that. But there did come a time where I thought, oh, I want to make sure I'm not going past my boundaries.

Mm-hmm.

Because there's always this line with coaching and therapy. There's— we're coaching, facilitation, therapy, consulting, all this stuff.

We're always kind of navigating those.

And I wanted to make sure that I'm operating with integrity, ethically. And as informed as I could be.

So I actually completed a trauma-informed coaching certification at that point, which was really just a cap on all the work and all the reading and that I've been doing for years in terms of getting to know how my past experiences have shaped and affected me.

Yeah.

And so knowing that I was doing that on a one-on-one basis already, And as it led towards or started to inform my facilitation, I think again, I was already doing it before I realized it was a thing and wanting to learn more. And how can we do this with more intention? And I always come back to that idea that being trauma-informed and showing up and operating from it in a trauma-informed way is about holding space. Mm-hmm. And what is the kind of space we can hold? How big is it? How flexible is it? How safe is it? How caring? How inclusive is it? There are all these different aspects that we can play with in trauma-informed facilitation. And again, in part from my own experience, I want to put out there for other people to experience something that feels more supportive.

Hmm.

Than maybe what I've experienced in the past, to really encourage myself to create a space that is truly able to facilitate learning at deeper and broader and bigger levels.

And now, given how we started our check-in today, given what's going on in the world, bringing in new contextual factors as well. So how do we even connect our own experience with what we're experiencing in our world at large in order for us to take bigger steps, speak up in bigger ways, and advocate for health and well-being.

Yeah, it's a big, big answer that's going on. Thank you.

We're here for the big answers. And yeah, and I think especially when the surroundings, the the global setting, global politics are so uncertain and bring up past traumas, or retraumatize groups, participants. And then it's, yeah, to be aware of what could happen and what remains unsaid and all the baggage the participants bring into the space. So how do you navigate that to not slip into the, into therapy mode while holding space for everything that could come up? What is, what are maybe the, the red flags or the, the moments where it could go wrong that you have learned to, oh, here we, I need to navigate a little bit in the other direction?

That's a great question, and it's a question that comes up more so all the time with the coaches that we that we teach or train and facilitate as well, especially these days. And since the pandemic and all these things where trauma is much more on people's mindset, I think some of the things—

and this is going to sound a little abstract, but I do listen for where people start to kind of go down a rabbit hole in terms of something that's bothering them.

There's something that's showing up.

And just listening for kind of how How far down is that going? And what is our bigger objective and our intention here? And this is, this is what we learn in coaching, is to be mindful of all the different aspects that show up in a coaching conversation. So it's— I find it very similar in facilitation. What are all the different aspects? What's our intention, our objective?

What's happening in the space? What's happening in the room?

And If I can be as present as possible, and that is connected with my intuition, my knowledge, my wisdom, my experience, I will be able to respond in that moment that continues to serve the group while not becoming something else that it shouldn't be in that space. Because my role is not to provide therapy in coaching or facilitation. And I know that's a bit of a vague answer, and I wish there was kind of a— and there are some very tangible and practical tips around that.

But I do think at the end of the day, it is working on our own presence, developing the capacity to sit with, to recognize, and to know what to do in those moments.

One of the best things I would say is acknowledging it.

Mm-hmm.

So I will say, oh, you know, And we could spend lots of time in a therapist's office with this, which is one way to just sort of say, hey, we're going into this territory and bringing people's attention to that.

Again, being mindful of not wanting to shame anyone around that because there's still stigma around therapy too.

Unfortunately.

Um, yeah. Yes, it's, it's going. But so naming that into the space. And helping people recognize that, oh, we're on a, we're on an edge here.

Slippery slope.

Yeah. Checking in with, with the participant, checking in with others. Where are people at?

What do they need right now? That's always, uh, so checking in is another key feature.

Yeah. What I realized, um, what I'm playing with recently when I have participants who share very vulnerable things suddenly, I would ask who else can resonate with that, and then have a few show of hands. And then this person feels seen and acknowledged, and then it's easier to kind of wrap it up and bring it back to the topic that we're actually discussing.

I love that.

Yeah, um, because otherwise, before that, I always felt a little bit uncomfortable. Oh, What am I doing now? Because I don't want to dismiss this person. Oh, yeah. Thank you for sharing. But we have to move on.

Moving on.

Exactly.

And sometimes it can go really far depending on what we're facilitating, the topic. And so also being restorative. And sometimes people need to go off camera.

They may feel they've been too vulnerable.

And just need some time and not making a big deal of that, but actually normalizing that, that that's something we may need to do.

And then also ensuring that there's proactive follow-up with people so that we can debrief, uh, in full and not leaving them alone in that.

That's so important, especially in the online space where we don't know what's happening once the Zoom session is over.

Exactly.

Good point. And would it be something that you're just aware— because I can— I mean, there are so many different sorts of trauma. Now we're going totally in the trauma direction. Enjoy it. And so there's so many different sorts of trauma, capital T, small t, and everyone comes with their baggage. And I realized at some point that You never really know what kind of triggers you might push, and I'm thinking of one session that I was a participant in, and the facilitator invited all of us to speak out our own name very, very slowly. Miriam, Maggie. Something that was interesting for myself in terms of experience, but Speak out my name. And there was one participant in particular who could not, and then basically went into confrontation with the facilitator that this is something you cannot do and cannot expect of participants to do. So definitely there was a trauma hit and something that I didn't see coming at all. And then I heard other facilitators speaking about the invitation to close their eyes, that don't ask participants to close their eyes because Or give them the option not to, because it's very often related to sexual trauma. So how does a facilitator— how do we become at least a little bit more aware of all these different components? And how can we be aware without suddenly becoming too careful and not daring to just be ourselves and bring some lightness also in the sessions? That was a long question.

A great question, though. And I, I think you already said the answer. Options. So providing options.

I've learned the hard way, just like you may have as well. Oh, I stepped on a landmine there in someone's emotional, you know, their psyche. And one is coming up in particular when I facilitated a group And we did a creative activity. And while I qualified the creative activity by saying, you don't need to be an artist, we're just asking you to draw whatever comes to mind. And for the most part, most people were able to say, okay, well, my drawing's gonna be terrible because I'm not very good at this.

But, or my, you know, other people were— they weren't showing it to anybody, but I do remember one participant sitting there in full-on trauma mode and just, you know, I can't do this. I can't.

And at the time, it was one of the first moments I would say that I've witnessed somebody really having a strong trauma response right in front of me.

And I didn't know how to handle it.

And so I was encouraging and, you know, still encouraging the activity and trying to offer sort of different kind of ways to approach it.

And she was in full shutdown mode.

And that's how we learn, though. I don't ever want to cause that again. So what do I need to learn to avoid that, or at least respond to it when it happens?

And I think that's what I was really focused on, is this is going to happen.

I, and I can't know when I'm in myself.

I get triggered by all sorts of things or activated by all sorts of things.

And so learning to make things optional and ensuring to provide different options.

I learned a lot about, yeah, trauma-sensitive mindfulness meditation, uh, as well, which was— Hmm. Yeah, when we ask people to sit still and close their eyes, that can send them back to all sorts of situations. And so one thing I learned from that, that particular area of expertise, was providing options.

So think as part of the preparation, when you're asking people to do things, engage in activities, ensuring that you're thinking through different options. And even if you don't think through all the options, When someone does say something or has a response, being open to that, not judging it, try not to freak out because your activity is now being thrown into question, but being nimble and adaptive and finding a way and even co-creating a way.

Hmm.

So normalizing that other people may be experiencing the same thing. And how can we collectively make this better? How can we make this easier?

What's a better way to do this? Because there's so much wisdom in these rooms that we go into at all times. It's not always on the facilitator to figure it all out.

Yeah, that's the biggest learning.

Yeah, right. And inviting that, welcoming that wisdom into the room.

So, yep, pre-thinking options, inviting options, and being open and adaptive when Things come into the room.

Yeah. And I can imagine that even if you, you don't want to offer all the options because then it's also kind of patronizing. And I can imagine that if you just offer one other option as an example, they will come up with whatever feels comfortable to them and then also feel empowered.

Exactly. Yeah.

And I noticed that you corrected yourself. You said triggered and then replaced it by activated. And I would be curious whether this was intentional, where you see this distinction.

I'm aware that the word trigger itself can be triggering for people, and so I have been moving towards the word activation consciously and don't always get it right. So it's always about trying.

Yeah, so I'm glad that I asked. Because, uh, I wasn't aware of that, and now I learned something. Um, and activation, yeah, is a much nicer way to put it because it's somehow dynamic. Yes.

And there's some, some kind of judgment and stigma associated with the word trigger. And so, yes, moving towards a kind of more neutral language for that. And that kind of ties into that bigger picture of Normalizing all of this stuff, even normalizing this idea that we all have baggage or life experience.

Yes.

We all bring life experience.

Yeah. And how we label that and name it is unique to each of us as well.

Yeah.

And yeah, I do like that idea of neutral language as much as possible.

Again, knowing that, yeah, nothing is ever truly neutral.

Yeah. And then I really struggle often with the neutral language. And my strategy is then to, to use humor and to normalize it. So when I speak of baggage, I speak of my baggage first. And then, okay, who else has baggage? Don't we all have? And then it's kind of, okay, so it's out there. Yes, we're all human.

Yes. Right.

And then move on. But, and I think, yeah, that's why it's so important that every facilitator finds, or coach finds their own wording that feels comfortable and at least is aware what they could do with their words.

Which is so different from where facilitation and teaching started. The expert, the all-knowing, the perfect kind of person at the front of the room. And now we get to be so much more vulnerable, And co-create spaces with people through that.

I love that.

Yeah, yeah, we can meet on eye level. And I want to come back to one other thing you said where you noticed the full trauma response in a participant. And I think it could be very interesting for myself, but also for the audience, to know what are maybe some signs So how do you know? You've been trained on that, so I guess, and then with experience you see it and you recognize. But if someone steps on someone's or activates someone and then they're in full trauma mode and we don't even realize, that can be very dangerous. So what are maybe one or two signs, you know, like maybe be careful here?

Well, I will say that particular example happened in person.

And so, you know, we're able to pick up on so much when we're in person. This person actually pushed their chair back from the table, you know, arms down, eyes wide, and just—

Panic.

Yeah. And whether we've been trained in it or not, most of—

well, I shouldn't say that most of us.

A lot of us can recognize that something's off here.

Yeah.

And if we're tuned into our own bodies and our emotions enough, we can recognize something that's happening there. And just, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I just, I just realized an important distinction here. So when someone moves their chair back, arms down, eyes wide open, can look as panic. can also be interpreted as anger. And I think, and so the distinction I see here, whether we recognize, oh, okay, this can be a trauma response, so I need to hold space for that person, that's outward looking, holding space, versus inward looking, oh, this person is angry and doesn't respect my activities and wants to disrupt my session and plan.

All of that, right? And, and we're needing to respond because it can be any and all of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So back to that, that question, I think in-person does offer some benefits that way.

And then we also have to be aware of how are we responding to that, right?

Just as you say, is our intention here being threatened? Can we handle what's coming up?

And I think that's a really important aspect of this, is recognizing what we can handle and what we're not yet able to manage yet in the moment.

Because if we're panicking and freaking out inside, we may become reactive.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, again, we, we need to bring grace to ourselves as facilitators and to people who are learning spaces, sometimes we are going to react in a way that we may regret.

And I think that's also something that I keep top of mind is not wanting to react. And so if, if the worst case is that I'm going to pause and say, I need time, we all need some time, maybe we're going to take a break at this moment, then that's also Again, prioritizing the safety for all in the conversation. So much goes on between humans in these spaces.

Yeah.

And I think letting go of sort of pressure and urgency to address it or know the right thing to say in the moment is a key aspect of developing as both a trauma-informed and inclusion-based facilitator. Yeah.

Inclusion means all of us.

Yes. Yes. How do these 2 elements of inclusion-based and trauma-informed complement each other or distinguish each other? How do they stand next to each other?

I think all of that is true.

They complement, they stand next to each other. And I might make a distinction as a way to start with answering that question, because there is some work that is about talking about trauma, learning about trauma, facilitating trauma-based work. And so that to me kind of stands out a little bit separate.

Yeah. Um, and for the most part, the work that we do, uh, with coaching, coach development, leadership development is that complementary approach. So trauma-informed and inclusion-based.

Mm-hmm. And it really is connected.

And I think it comes back to that idea of safety and belonging in a space.

So if we are truly intentional about creating spaces where people can bring their whole selves in, feel safe enough to learn and to grow and to discover, and like they are part of a community that they can draw on, Then we need to bring attention to both of those aspects.

And what I appreciate about both the trauma-informed and the inclusion-based lens is it draws so much on our own knowing about ourselves and what our experiences are.

So a lot of work around inclusion and belonging requires looking at what's my experience been around these. Where have I felt like a part of a community, a valued part, seen, for who I am, appreciated for who I am, while also challenged and held capable of learning and growing in new ways?

Hmm.

And where have I not felt that?

Where have I felt excluded? Where have I felt marginalized? And for some people, this is very big, you know, depending on race, depending on sexual orientation, depending on abilities. And there's all sorts of aspects.

So there may be a profound experience of that, or family trauma. And yet I do believe that each of us, and in all of the courses I've taken around this, that there is something that each of us can identify with.

And even if we haven't been marginalized or oppressed in a big societal way, there's something that we can all relate to, and finding those somethings are so important for us to be able to show up and create and contribute to a space that feels more inclusive.

And it's this—

I feel like it's very similar with trauma, that in order to be trauma-informed, part of that work is understanding our own relationship with trauma.

Hmm.

The little t trauma, the big T trauma.

Um, and not saying that all, you know, Saying, oh well, because I've experienced this, I can understand what it's like to be a marginalized person in society in some other way. But drawing on that, drawing on that similar sense.

Yeah, and if we can connect to this memory or feeling that we have experienced at some point, will then also help us to empathize. Yes, of course we cannot relate because everyone's trauma and experience is different, but then Yeah, I think very often we forget how it has felt for us in a different situation there. And since we— yeah. And then just neglecting or downplaying what might be going on for others. But when we can connect to something that has maybe been very small and led to a big reaction, if we remember that, then it's easier to empathize with someone else's big reaction.

And we're always learning.

I'm just reminded in this moment of a conversation I had recently in reflecting back on a conversation I had with someone, you know, maybe a year ago, who was quite distraught about the state of the world.

And at that time, I hadn't been able to connect as much with my own feelings about the state of the world. state of the climate, the political discourse, and wasn't able to empathize at that level yet.

Hmm.

And recognizing that more recently, I've begun to connect to more of those feelings and can only now empathize. So we're not always ready either to meet people where they're at. Yet it can linger in our, our minds that, hmm, Yeah, somewhere else where I wasn't yet.

Yeah, and it's one of those phrases that everyone says so easily, meeting other people where they're at, or meeting groups where they're at, not being aware how much— what it actually means. And yes, sometimes we are not ready to meet them where they're at, and then it all comes back to the inner work we have to do, right? That never stops.

Right.

That never stops. And can we also experience our life as it is?

Yes.

Because we can get into a real trap, I would say, around that in terms of always learning more and more and more. And I get into that as well. And I have to remind myself to, you know, just read a good fiction book occasionally.

Yes.

Not always focusing on self-development and And we can learn just as much from something lighter or more creative or more imaginative.

Absolutely. And I must even say that, um, I have the impression that fiction books are actually the one of the very rare opportunities where we can be in someone else's head and mind and feelings at such a close level than any other Because even if we have good friends or partners, can be very close, but we'll never hear their thoughts and their perspective. But in a good fiction book, we really get that.

I want to be mindful of that when I read my next fiction book, is really paying attention to how this person thinks and sees the world and what they experience and feel.

Yeah, because I— there are a few books that really make me uncomfortable because what this person is, how they are seeing the world, is so different from my view. And then I get very activated.

I'm learning, right?

Um, and it's an interesting observation. Then I go, oh, what does it say about me? And so we kind of parked the inclusion-based Hard now. And I would love to hear more about the inclusion-based lens that you use, and especially when you speak about inclusion-based leadership. What does it actually mean, and who does it address?

I'm so conscious, given again everything that's going on in the world right now, that even my understanding of this is growing, growing, growing each day.

And So yes, I, you know, as I've shared a little bit, that this idea of creating both space and environments and team dynamics where people feel like they can bring their whole selves, that they can feel safe enough, that as an inclusion-based leader, we're prioritizing that. And my colleague Donna Ford models this so well.

And I've learned so much from her. I'm so lucky to work with her and my other colleague, Marina Sinclair, who—

we inspire each other in different ways. But I always observe Donna coming back to safety and prioritizing that.

Mm-hmm.

And I have seen her do that so skillfully with leaders and with teams. And that once things start to feel like they're going offside from a safety perspective, We know we lose people.

Mm-hmm.

And it's such a, it's sort of a felt thing that we might need to pick up using all of our presencing abilities. And yet when we're starting to feel that slip and go beyond safe enough, there's almost no point because we've lost people at that point. And so just being really mindful and present to that as much as we can.

And making sure we're prioritizing that sense of safety that is so linked to our sense of belonging.

Are we seen? Are we valued?

Are we appreciated?

Are we trusted to sit with more challenging aspects and opportunities to grow? And so a lot of that can come into how we lead. And I think, given the nature of leadership today, and it's been evolving for several decades, As we've learned through everything that's been written on the subject, if we want to ensure that people want to stay working with our organization, are committed to a shared purpose, then we need to be not only putting attention on it, but prioritizing it.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's a bit of a distinction between where it's being done well and where it's being done in a bit of a performative way, or maybe where people are newer to that idea. That there may be words put to it, but is it showing up in their actions?

Mm-hmm. Are they actually pausing in a team meeting or in a strategy, in, as they're, they're strategizing for their companies to pay attention to how safe do people feel, how included do they feel? Because we need everybody.

We need everybody's perspectives.

We need all of their best strengths these days to address the challenges and, and to act on the opportunities available to businesses today.

Yes, amen to that.

And easier said than done, of course.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that we have a very long way to go until there is real awareness amongst leaders and managers what it actually— why it is important to prioritize it. And I think to let slip the passive aggressiveness The finger-pointing, the blaming, and even if it's very kind of subtle, because yeah, safety is a very fragile thing. And I think we underestimate the impact that just one person can have, one person coming in, one sentence, and it's gone. So it's really a team effort to protect that safety, but it's the leader that models it.

And even being able to acknowledge it, and a leader being able to say, oh, I'm feeling a little bit unsure in this moment about how to proceed. And again, calling in the wisdom of others.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That requires a lot of humility and self-awareness, safety.

Mm-hmm. And I think it accompanies, can accompany a human journey through life because we start off self-oriented and have to work through all of our stuff. Until we can progressively get to a place where we can think beyond ourselves, can start to look at the bigger picture. And each of us is on our own journey around that. I am certainly on my own very humbling journey on that. I find myself saying that all the time.

Leadership is, is very humbling. It's Yeah, that's a more recent awareness for me in recent years.

Is it because it pushes us to the limits of our own abilities and, and to step back of our own self-image and our perspective that there's only this one way to do it? Or what is it for you that's humbling?

Being wrong, having real blind spots, like Really being unaware of things and how long it takes to gain that awareness and get over yourself in order to, and all the things that come along with seeing ourselves as capable and, and having strengths and also being strong enough to recognize that how human we all are. Because I do think we spend a lot of our initial parts of our careers gaining knowledge, developing expertise.

And I do think this is also changing just because of the way the world is. And, and, but at least for me in the foundational part of my career, it was really gaining confidence and then gaining enough confidence to then sort of allow things to fall away too and allow our knowledge and expertise to be just part of who we are. As a leader, as a human, and not the central parts anymore, but how we respond.

We talk a lot about Charles Pellerin's work.

He's the author of How NASA Builds Teams and the creator of 4D Systems.

And he— it always comes back to me is that leadership comes back to how we make decisions and where our attention is that informs those decisions. And it's such a foundational aspect. If we look at what leadership is, and it's one perspective, but I do value it. And if we come back down to that, where is our attention?

Where is our attention not?

What's outside of our attention? How do we make decisions?

And, and he talks about sort of our orientations to time, whether we're more logical or more emotional decision-making. And that to me really puts attention on what do we know about ourselves and how can that inform our decision-making to evolve and where we put attention and where we don't put attention.

This resonates so much. Yes, we always speak about evidence-based decision-making or informed decisions, but yes, where, which evidence are we taking into account? Where's our attention? Are we looking at the positives or at the negatives, or can we find a balance? How biased are we in the selection of the information that informs the decision? Um, yeah, thank you.

It's something I just— it's resurfaced again. I mean, we, we teach it in our program, but I keep coming back to it, that it's so foundational and fundamental, and there's so much that can go into our development around those aspects.

The decision-making and where our attention is, and life informs us and we respond.

Yeah, I had a very interesting interaction with a fellow in my town who I just happened to meet on the street and got into a—

and I love it when this happens— a person I didn't know, and all of a sudden we're talking about like the deepest things in life.

And, you know, I think he's in his 90s. And so he's lived a life, lots of wisdom, experience. And he was sharing with me that he—

his view is that everything is random.

And that is what he has come to conclude. And it's such an interesting perspective. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, because who can say that? But so fascinating to learn from someone who's been here for longer than me. who has come to a conclusion about life in this way. And I do think about the way we each develop as a leader.

There is some randomness to that because that will be informed by our experience. It's informed by my experience as a cancer survivor, my experience as a queer person who came out later in life, all sorts of things. And yeah.

It feels very random sometimes.

Totally, totally. I think if my current partner hadn't stepped into my life, I wouldn't even have realized that I'm queer. Totally random. And yeah, most of the experience we have with other people are random because we cannot control them and what has informed them in that moment. I like that. I will contemplate about the randomness of life.

Again, he said it with such, uh, you know, clarity and firmness of his opinion. And even us meeting on the street was so random and having this conversation. I really do not think I've seen him again, and I live in a very small town, and I know he's still around, but I've never had a conversation with him again, and it's been 3 years.

Beautiful. Yeah. And Yeah, and then still it's an inherent curiosity that then also drives the randomness or the serendipity of life in a certain direction. Because if we are more curious or more open to the outside world— if you would have looked at your phone and rushed from one place to the next, you would have never spoken to him.

Mm-hmm.

So what are the elements or the seeds we plant to allow the randomness to happen or the serendipities to create new opportunities.

And just being open to that idea that anything can happen on any day.

Yes, these days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is what I learned from cancer, though, because it just showed up totally as a surprise.

And it's like, oh, wow, I was 30 years old and didn't see that coming. But it certainly informed my life since.

And happy to say that I've been in remission ever since. But yeah, some of those lessons you learn early.

Yeah. And suddenly that puts everything in question that you have believed before and the priorities you have set.

And yeah.

And is there any decision in particular that you, in your professional life, that you said, and now I'm taking a different direction, or I double-click on something?

I love that question.

Certainly in my career. So after I came back to sort of work, I went through 2 years of cancer treatment. It worked the whole time. But on the other side of that, I noticed my motivation had changed. And despite the fact that my whole career trajectory was in the finance world and in the financial technology world, I couldn't force myself to get up and go to work anymore and like with any kind of energy. And so a decision I made over time, eventually with support along the way, was to leave that world and to go into my coach training and focus on leadership development. And so that was a big decision.

That has certainly impacted my life professionally and changed everything. And I'm so happy I made the choice, even though it was not easy. And there were lots of years of trying to figure this out and how is this going to work.

That was probably the, you know, the biggest one from a personal perspective. I think I'm in a place of decision-making now in terms of, and I might even call my my business partners into this with me as well, is how we— that was a very personal example. I think we're in a position now to determine how we can serve as leaders in towards creating the world or moving towards the world we want to be in and what we want to see more of. And so that feels less personal and more of a responsibility.

Given what we've learned and what we've studied and what we do. And I think we're in a place of decision-making around that, which is a very interesting place for me.

Yeah, it sounds like stepping up into the self-leadership, but also into, into power somehow. Power to make a difference and impact and to follow your own values maybe, or principles or visions.

Yes. And if we have skills in terms of speaking up in a certain way or advocating for certain things, considering what is our responsibility to then bring those to the bigger world. And yeah, exactly, kind of stepping out of ourselves. And it's a tension to navigate, right? Because how responsible do we want to be for the rest of the world?

Like, it might be a bit big.

But, and it's— I think it's very interesting coming from the, or carrying the label of facilitator, where usually we're at the back of the room, we're giving the stage, and we're trusting the group. So they are responsible of the outcome, and they're driving the actions, and we are facilitating, enabling it. But then I think for a facilitator to say, okay, now it's maybe time to step out of this shadow to stand for something very clearly. I think this requires a real mindset shift.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think it— and then coexist. Stepping out of the shadow doesn't mean that you're neglecting the groups or that you're putting yourself over the groups or whatsoever. I think it can even make the groups stronger. And you would definitely attract then different sorts of work or collaborators Yes, yes.

And if we tie that back to the inclusion-based approach to facilitation and leadership as well.

So one of the things that we've become much more clear on is that if someone's right to exist is threatened, then we have a responsibility to speak up as leaders, as facilitators, that there's a very clear line for us around that. And we can't be silent, and we can develop skills around how to do that. I think we're also looking into, there's a lot around social justice and coaching, and some really strong connections that come from the International Coaching Federation around that. And we are stepping more into that stance of seeing how these things connect. And then, so how does that inform ourselves as coaches and leaders?

Mm-hmm.

How does that inform how we are teaching other coaches to work with leaders, and how that informs our leadership development facilitation?

If we genuinely believe that there's an opportunity and a real connection between social justice and coaching, social justice and leadership, that is no longer just about ourselves and our teams and the projects we're on, but also we have this greater opportunity and responsibility. Mm-hmm.

So yes, we are starting to step more into that and out of the shadows a little bit. Yeah.

And especially with the skill set of facilitators, coaches, I think to really bring that to the world that needs it so urgently now. I always stumble over the— the thought came up when you spoke earlier about the meetings and the inclusion and the importance of safety. And then how important also exclusion is in order to create inclusion. So not everyone must be included in this, especially when I think of meetings at the very lowest level, meetings. Not everyone has to sit in, not everyone has to be included in the decision-making. So, but then where's your attention on how to— draw the line to define who shall have a seat at the table, to then include those and be kind and clear with those who are not having a seat at the table.

So what comes to mind as you share that is, um, many years ago a manager shared with me that I have a strength in apologizing.

Are you British? Sorry.

Yes, yes.

And Canadian. And yet I hadn't realized until he shared that, and we were going through something and I was apologizing, and how much of a strength that is.

And there's a skill set associated with—

Canadians often get made fun of for apologizing all the time, and we do apologize a lot, too much sometimes, but there is a skill set associated with that.

And because we're never going to get it perfect, or sometimes we'll get it perfect and it'll just be—

that's random.

But, um, if we are also putting attention on how do we restore relationships when we do accidentally exclude someone that's not in our attention, or a group that's not in our attention, how do we take responsibility for, take ownership for, or even recognize that Oh, this was so in our blind spot that we're going to need to take time to wrestle with this a little bit because there are some conflicting beliefs and values coming up for us around this. So I do think that we can be just as skillful and mindful about how we respond when things don't go as well.

And people do get genuinely impacted by that.

Yeah. And acknowledging people's experiences and their feelings is a big part of that. And I think given the political divisiveness in our world today is even more important that fundamentally people are feeling things. And if we can acknowledge at that level, maybe it takes us some time to kind of figure out how do we want to respond to this?

Hmm.

How does making corrections going forward look? I think in Canada, our Truth and Reconciliation process is A journey, and some parts of it are, you know, Canada's getting right, some parts not yet. Can we still be in the conversation, come back to it, revisit, learn, make progress?

Yeah, I think that's a bigger part of our perspective that we can hold as well.

And I think the, the big difference is in the word yet. That you just used. They're not getting right yet. And this kind of implies the journey, the collaborative journey to make it better.

That may be the most powerful word of all these days, is yet.

Yes.

There's hope in that.

That's very true.

Yeah.

What remains your facilitation challenge?

From a personal perspective, I think the ongoing one is Courage and managing anxiety, particularly as I step into new types of facilitation and challenge myself to learn and grow in those areas.

So it's showing up without going too far that I cause some damage, and that will be ongoing work, self-work.

I think there's a couple of things is holding space together and recognizing when it's appropriate and makes sense to call in wisdom. When we still need to lead and direct and navigating those tensions in a classroom or a learning space.

And then I think the other piece is, and when we do have a stance or an agenda as well, for example, around social justice and coaching and a responsibility around that, how do we mind that and attend to that? How do we be transparent about that and not also let that get in the way of people's learning and where they're at?

Yeah, especially in the polarized world that we're living in now. I have the impression that polarization is getting even stronger, and together with that, a lack of curiosity or lack of time to really understand what it means. So it's easy to then have a label And have the different camps and then be judged for it. And I think because it goes so fast, also the cancel culture, where suddenly you're on a blacklist, you don't even know why. And I wonder whether this then also impacts the courage or safety to really stand for these values or to speak up and be transparent about it. And actually how it shows up then also in our groups. Because I think this is something that we can really bring to the space and to groups to help them take time to unpack and sit a little bit longer with labels, perspectives, polarization. Big responsibility we have, right, as facilitators. And especially if you're stepping into, into these spaces, then also— that's actually interesting. Gosh, this would be an entire, entire episode as such, where we spoke about the distinction between therapy and coaching, especially when it comes to trauma work, the distinction between social justice coaching and activism.

I would love to have that conversation.

Give me a few months. Yeah, because I think—

yeah, and maybe you have some Premature thoughts.

I think it's just that. It's being aware of and noticing the edges and becoming more as we play in those spaces too. I can't remember who said this, maybe several writers, but it's something I've always thought about.

I've drafted a couple of books.

They've not gone anywhere, and that I'm actually okay with that.

The drafting process is the fun part for me. But there's always been a concern for me, and I know lots of writers share this, that once you put something out in the world, even if you learn and grow and change, that thing is out in the world and people will think that, oh, this person, even if they wrote that 20 years ago, that's how they still think.

That's what they still stand for.

And so a nervousness about putting something to life.

Yes.

As, oh, this is how this person thinks. And so, yeah, what's coming up for you?

I'm dying to know.

I'm just reflecting on that. I haven't— yes, it's so true that you put something out in the world and then you have the label and it's very difficult to get rid of it, which speaks to such a set mindset where everything we teach is a growth mindset.

Right.

Interesting. Yes. And What comes to my mind in the distinction between activism and social justice, I think, is somehow the first word that comes to my mind is pace, where activism for me sounds reactive and fast. And for me, the facilitated version of that, that then might go in the social justice space as you understand it, I would assume, is the slowing down to understand, to have deeper conversations, and not just the cardboard on the street.

And I wonder, I don't identify as an activist per se, and I would be interested to know what someone who does might think about that as well and how they perceive it.

Yeah, there's a lot in there.

Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't consider myself an activist. Either. And maybe I became cautious because I see a lot of brutal force in recent activism that I cannot identify with. So a lot of emotions and possible trauma and all of that, and together with group dynamics, I think it can be very dangerous.

And I also appreciate just knowing our own strengths.

Yes.

So my strength is in one-on-one.

interactions, for sure. I recognize that. I'm always working on the group and bigger environments that way.

But even acknowledging that I have practiced activism on a one-on-one basis, and that's a good way for me to do that too.

That's nice.

And it feels safer, and it's where I know I can be effective, whereas I also recognize A colleague of mine, Leah Germanis, who started the company Up With Women, and it's about providing coaching for women who have experienced homelessness or being unhoused.

And so they provide free career coaching, trauma-informed career coaching, to these women to support them as they're, yeah, moving forward in their careers and lives.

And just The admiration I have for someone who can stand up for people in a bigger way in that way.

And I mean, she's done amazing things and is—

and the way she has gone about attracting attention to this very important area and aspect of our population that can benefit from the support. So, I mean, that's what Leah does and does it amazingly.

Mm-hmm.

I can't be a Leah Gramanis.

She's amazing, but I can be me in my own way and bring my strengths.

And I think that's part of it, right?

Equally amazing, differently amazing.

Yeah, well, thank you. But what are each of our strengths? What makes sense for us? What feels too much? Where might we be less effective? And yet, I come back to this word yet, I also do wonder about, at least, When will more of us be called on to step out of our comfort zones and move into both activism and social justice in bigger ways? Feels like now. Yeah. And we're probably already doing it.

We may not recognize it though as such. Yeah.

And I like how you, you framed it that, yes, activism can also happen one-on-one, making the change one conversation at a time.

Beautiful.

What is it that you would have wished you had known before, or your advice to your younger self?

So much.

Interesting what you say about that word pace. I love the concept of pace, actually.

I have been driven by a sense of urgency my whole life, and it's shown up in my writing in all sorts of ways. And if I could somehow impart on my younger self this idea of pace. And it may have taken a little pressure off. I may have made different choices because of it, but that we all do move at our own pace and that we interact with our environments in ways that affect our pace.

And if I just even was aware of that concept earlier on, it may have given me a little bit of relief, a little perspective.

And yeah, more healing actually, probably.

But thanks for bringing that up. Love that concept.

And thanks for sharing that. It resonates a lot. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

We've spoken for 1.5 hours.

Wow.

Was there something that you wanted to have shared that we didn't touch upon?

I think my gratitude for being in this conversation with you.

I'm delighted to have been connected with you and to be able to explore these topics in this way. And I look forward to following more of the work that you do, listening to more of your podcast, because I see that as maybe a form of your activism or social justice is in, in sharing in this way with the world. And I just want to amplify that.

So that may not have been what you were looking for there in that question, but that's what comes up— gratitude.

Thank you so much. It's been a delight to explore. Very emergent conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for. And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world. I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free. Please help us visit workshops.work/support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free. Thank you so much. I hope to be in your ears next week.