302 - Facilitating the Future: Architecture, Collaboration, and Innovation with Benjamin Nott

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. And if you enjoyed last week's conversation with Barbara about high-stakes, multi-stakeholder meetings, then you will really be intrigued by this week's conversation with Ben, as we speak about his multi-stakeholder, projects in the realm of building environments and how he brings together researchers from different disciplines and different countries to rethink architecture and buildings of the future. And we speak about the challenges and the best practices of making these projects succeed. So stay tuned. And don't forget to scroll down to the show notes to find out more about Ben and to subscribe to the podcast if you enjoy it. Thank you for listening. Ben, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Myriam. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, I'm very curious in which direction this conversation will take us because I have the impression that any conversation we had so far could have been a podcast episode.

True. I remember our coffee in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago. That was, uh, yeah, we needed more time.

And even this half-hour warming-up chat could have been recorded already. So it's time to include the audience, and I always start at the beginning with the same question: when did you start calling yourself a facilitator, and actually, do you?

Right, I don't. Call myself a facilitator, strangely enough, but I've just had some recent experiences in the past weeks where I've been in certain forums or workshops that have been facilitated specifically around climate topics, foresight topics. And the more and more I participate in these as an invitee rather than just open to the general public, it reminds me of my background as an architect. Where naturally we are leading teams. We are, you know, talking people across different disciplines, from the engineering faculty to anyone in interiors to anyone who comes in also in some of the work we're doing— biologists, psychologists, all these sort of stuff. So I find it interesting that intrinsically in the work of architecture, that facilitation part was there but without a different name. So it's, it's about bringing the best out of people. It's about interacting. It's about leadership. These are the words I'm putting to it.

Yeah.

So I don't really identify with facilitation. But one thing I am getting really appreciative of and wanting more of is good facilitation. And that's really, yeah, a person in the room or multiple people, because it can be a co-facilitation. Where there is a, a direction, there is a purpose, there is a— you're there 2 hours, 1 hour a day, whatever it is. And I think that's becoming more and more necessary.

What makes you say that?

I think time is of the essence. I think I'm realizing also in my career, and I think a lot of other people, a lot of things take our time. There's a lot of things around us that are distracting us. And I really feel that as technology is evolving and as this sort of constant connection to black screens or any other technical devices, there is a necessity to really step outside of that and come back to just human interactions, just one-to-ones, groups. I think these are really key because I'm noticing a lot of anxiety, a lot of people that are actually feeling this discomfort I think that the psychological mind-playing that happens in facilitation events and reading the room is becoming more and more powerful.

Yeah, because these projects also become more and more complex, especially in the area where you operate, where architecture is not anymore just the building, but there's all the technology now playing a bigger role. And from what you just shared, it sounds as if, as an architect, it's almost like orchestrating all these different inputs and then translating a vision into something that when it's built, it cannot be changed that fast anymore. So really aligning on what is our shared understanding. Do we understand the same things by using the same words? Maybe do we mean the same thing by using different words?

Yeah, I like the metaphor of music. I often in my, you know, group meetings, management meetings, design meetings, whatever they are, use the metaphor of the symphony orchestra. You know, I like to think that I'm more the conductor, but I have my, you know, my lead pianist, my lead violoncello. I have, you know, those 5 particular entities in the room that are driving their particular sphere or their particular sphere of influence, but the others then are coordinating behind them. So you have this sort of layering effect.

Yeah, beautiful. And I would love to, to dig deeper in the work that you do and the role that facilitation plays in there. And I think to get the audience on board, maybe you can share a little bit of context of What is it that you do, and who is this lead pianist in your orchestra, and then the cello?

Essentially, just as a shortcut, I've been an architect now for over 20 years. I'm originally from South Africa, so when I did my studies, it was very much under the Royal Institute of British Architects curriculum because we are still part of the Commonwealth, but in the African context. So there was a nice duality happening there in the late '90s, early 2000s. The last 4 years of my career have been going back to one of my first passions, which is around solving some big problems. I love research and innovation. I believe there's not enough happening in the built environment in general, not just in architecture. So I have found myself over the last 3 or 4 years really connecting dots. I'm, you know, through my network and through other, you know, people I'm connected to, There's a lot of amazing people doing amazing work, but in their own little silo.

Mm-hmm.

And buildings sort of touch on us all in a way. You know, we live and work 80% of our lives in buildings. You know, let's be also aware of context with, you know, Europe, but a lot of places around the world, this is quite a phenomenon and it's going to become more so with climate and all the rest. You know, places getting hotter, for example. So I join those dots and it always starts with those 3 or 4 believers that, you know, believe there is a vision there. I mean, I came up with one about building like termites.

Hmm.

I had a lot of naysayers saying, what are you talking about? You know, looking at me like I was actually mad. But then I had a good friend of mine, Wolfram, who is our engineer, who totally understood it. And then, you know, he connected to another material scientist who's working on And then before you know it, you've got those 4 or 5 believers in. And then because you have those, you can get the other 10, 20, 30, in this case, this particular project, 60 that bought in because you can't just be the sole individual as much as you drive it and lead it. And you're also that player coach or that you're also able to play the instruments in the symphony orchestra if we keep to that metaphor. You have an understanding, but then you empower the others to drive their own group and their own vision. And it's a case of giving everyone an equal say in the room, allowing them to have their space. And it's just really envisaging putting them all together. And that's where my work has taken me. So essentially, I'm bringing projects together, developing these projects with others. So it's very much a co-creation. collaboration process of people that are not traditionally in the architecture and engineering industry. We have biologists, we have computer scientists, we have psychologists, we have all sorts. And to really then understand where we're going with this, we're building a semi-private, semi-public owned living innovation laboratory here in the southern part of the Swiss Alps. to allow thinkers and people who've got wonderful ideas, writing amazing papers in various academic institutes and places around Europe and outside as well, to actually learn by doing, sort of really bringing this sort of polymath approach, breaking down boundaries and actually connecting people and saying, you know, you come together, you know, material science and engineer, there's a wonderful energy, there's an impact point that we can do some really amazing stuff with. And if I think of popcorn, it's like I like to turn up the heat and it just starts going for it. And then we all sort of tap into that energy and run with it.

Yeah. And it's fascinating, especially yesterday I interviewed Barbara on the podcast and we spoke about her work in multi-stakeholder, high-stakes meetings for climate action where it's mostly— so she has a background in the legal sector. She's a lawyer. And speaking about these multi-stakeholder meetings to create policies and this kind of change. And now I, I see a lot of parallels in what you do where you're building something material, buildings or built environments. But the context of these high-stake multi-stakeholder meetings is similar, I assume.

It is. And also the big thing that drives a little bit of fear into everybody around the built environment is its permanence.

Yeah.

We are, you know, we have big sums of money. We're probably arguably some of the biggest investments any multinational or any private individual will make is building something for him or herself or for their bigger institution. So the built environment is a big cost center. And I think what's also coming out now is that we do a lot of our work, or myself personally, by projecting ourselves into the future. You know, we are inherently designing for, you know, now, because you reference climate change, we should be designing for 50 to 80 years. You know, previously the mindset has always been 15 to 20.

Mm-hmm.

But now it's all about adaptability. It's all about reduce. It's all about identifying what that building could become. The classic example that everyone on the, on, in the audience might assimilate to is, you know, COVID, you're in an apartment, but they didn't give you actually a terrace or an outdoor space.

Mm-hmm.

You know, these things have been taken away for various reasons, real estate and all the rest. We won't get into that, but spaces need to be adaptable, one, but you're also grounded in the present. So we've, we've become very aware of what we, we, we assume is our level of comfort and our needs. But always looking back and understanding what the past, because you have various examples and there's always that buildup of case studies of what's done right and what's done wrong. And that's how we generally facilitate the process of design.

Mm-hmm.

Coming to the core principles and what is the building supposed to be used for, who will be using it and such like. Then I like to throw another layer on top of it, Because architecture for me is sort of sitting in between the 3, sort of, if you think of a triangle, you're sitting in between the sciences, the arts, and the humanities because it is for people. So, you constantly are bouncing off these different sides of this triangle to find that sweet spot in the middle where humans come together, people come together in these spaces to share stories and build memories. That's my very simple romantic thought of what we do. And we're coming to the realization in the Western world that we've lost touch of what these buildings could be and what they were, in a sense, in the sense that they were more attuned to our senses. They were more natural. They were more, you know, when I talk about just simple things like materials that are breathing, a bit more natural, easy to reuse, a lot of these things were there. It's just big business, lobbies, certain things got their way in, and we've gone down a certain road now to now, you know, the second most ubiquitous material in the world is man-made, and it's concrete. The first is water, which is, you know, that's what our planet is made of. So I find it interesting that that's where we are in society.

And I wonder what role power structures play to that, because I mean, as facilitators, full-time facilitators who guide groups through processes, the space in which we operate plays a big role. Do we have— and that's something also Barbara mentioned— how can we envision something and be creative in our conversations and the discourse if we're sitting in a room without windows?

Yeah.

And I think the way how spaces are shaped and designed is also often a manifestation of power dynamics. Can we actually move the furniture? Do we have windows? Do we have rows or circles? So what role do then power structures and politics, maybe in the broader sense, play in these collaborations that you experience or facilitate?

First and foremost, I tend to go with, as you alluded to, the space. Meeting on neutral ground helps. I love going for a walk. That does wonders. If you can and there's an opportunity before actually having a meeting, I've done it a few times where you know there's going to be some big power players in the room meet European way. Obviously, I live close to Italy, so coffee is a big one. You know, that also relaxes a bit. And like a glass of Merlot doesn't also do any, you know, does some positive reactions, but that's key. I think the other one is I've just learned to just, just to be honest in the brutal sense, but in a nice way. You know, don't beat around the bush. You know, it's, you know, some tensions are there. And then the other great one I also use Just because I'm dealing on such a personal level with the projects is playing that psychological role. Some people just don't like to be in the group. Take them aside, have a one-to-one and say, look, what's going on here? You know, take them out of it, have a 5-minute one-to-one. I find this very handy because most of what I'm dealing with is actually people's fears.

Can you share more about that?

Fears because, A, you're taking such a massive investment. So there's a risk associated to getting it wrong. You know, and then the other one is promoting concepts around energy, water, concepts around sustainability, climate change, and using natural materials, and then associating a value to it. It's quite interesting, the value structures, cultures, having worked within Africa and Europe, how these different cultures relate to what's of value. You know, you'd be amazed how valuable a kitchen is to some. And to others, you know, it's the lounge and the living area. It's the entrance. It's those private and public spaces. So there's a lot of, primarily in my experience, listening. And I'm always constantly finding or truly trying to get to the point of what is the assumption and what is the expectation, not just in the meeting, but in the long term. And this is where the big advantage we have, and I would stress If you could, in other sort of environments, you interviewed yesterday, I think it was Barbara you mentioned on the legal aspect, using images, using graphics, telling stories and, you know, telling a funny anecdote of something that happened to you and, you know, trying to put a positive light on it also breaks that tension. But we have the wonderful advantage of using imagery, you know. And that's not just focused on words and numbers. It can be a very powerful way of just really shifting the whole thing and actually going to the site or the location where you're building because you're outdoors. That really breaks it as well, not just being in a room with no windows.

Yeah. And I just realized, as you mentioned it, the imagery, that, of course, as architects, this is how you create a shared vision. literally by seeing it. And it's something that we use, or facilitators use, through graphic recorders to create a shared vision. And it's still not around as a general thing that everyone would rely on, although yes, it is so important, especially in multi-stakeholder, multidisciplinary, multicultural settings.

Yeah, another one I notice and we use— I actually have a box of Lego. Lego architecture, it's all white pieces, and I leave that with clients. Or we actually have a workshop session as one of the first just to build it, because there's a lot of people, and I go back to fears, a lot of people, and this is no particular gender because it can come always, cannot read a drawing.

Ah.

There are— it's something I've realized in my career going forward. If you put a 2D drawing on the table, be it a plan, a section, elevation, A lot of people will not turn around to you and say, don't, you know, just run me through this, explain this to me. How does this work? Especially if it's a new project or it's not a reform or retrofit. So overcoming those barriers is key and getting that honesty in. It's like I do it by instinct. I was at an event where there's facilitation on ethics in foresight.

Mm-hmm.

Very personal subject matter, very, very highly contextualized and culturally significant depending on which part of the world you're from when it comes to ethics. And a lot of concepts were mentioned around foresight, you know, the classic acronyms, you have no idea. I'm just inherently curious, so I will always go into a thing wanting to learn the most and just stop the conversation. So sorry, I really, I don't want to be stupid, but What does that mean? And trying to stimulate people to actually come out of that is challenging. And I can understand where things can go a little awry.

And I was just writing down psychological safety, how to create the space. And acronyms, I think, is a beautiful example. That's one I always use when I train on psychological safety. When we use acronyms or lingo, It creates this inclusion, oh, we are one team, we understand each other, so it's nice and cozy. But as soon as there's one person who doesn't know the acronym or the technical wording, we need such a high level of psychological safety for them to dare to ask.

Yeah.

So I was wondering, when I imagine the setting in which you operate, they're highly skilled experts from different domains. And when I think back to my time at the university, the highest skilled, the most successful professors were always those who dared to ask the question first, I don't understand, walk me through.

Mm-hmm.

And still, there are also others who are so used to always have all the answers. How do you create this level of psychological safety so that you can make the implicit explicit by having everyone asking these questions and asking to clarify and to be curious? One way, as you mentioned, is obviously by modeling it. So you go first and ask all of these. But what do you do? How do you do that?

If I get into a room, I really try and understand who's in the room before getting there. I think it's essential to know who's in the room. I think just giving people that respect before being in there is fundamental if you know that's your job. As an introvert, as a child, I Up until the age of 12, I was at home. And then from the age of 13 to 18, I was at boarding school, like typical English style, see your parents once or twice a year. That really taught me to be an extrovert. You know, you learn to survive. You know, if you're an introvert, middle '90s wasn't really interesting to be. You didn't really have many computer screens to hide yourself behind as much as I did have the PlayStation and the Atari and the Game Boy and all the rest. But Being from that and actually learned to be a bit ambidextrous, mixing the introvert and introvert— the extrovert, sorry. I really make an effort to bring in the people that are quiet.

Hmm.

I think it's key that, yes, you will always have your first— your people that will first always jump in. Lay the scene, lay a few ground rules, but make sure that everyone participates and know that they're there to participate, because then you also prevent on the other side what I call these sort of data harvesters, the ones that just come in to take.

Hmm.

It's a give and take, you know, so prepare to take risk. It's an open forum. It's a trust base. We're here together. We're going for a collective vision. And when you mentioned sort of professors, because I work a lot with ETH, EPFL, TU Delft, TU Munich, some very, you know, very well-respected institutes. And strangely enough, in my experience, out of the professors I deal with, who are some very, you know, well-qualified, experienced people, they're very gentle and very quiet people that are very focused on their work. Get into their work and show the same passion, and they just light up like children. It's also being a bit sort of playful. I try to, and that kind of also leads to the the joy of architecting or architecture or design in general, you can get people to draw. We'll often bring out a big A1 sheet, and we have these sort of big, thick crayons, Lamy crayons that are like children use. So, they all remember their childhood. When you get it a bit more playful, I find that also great. That's why I love Lego as an opportunity just to even ideate and do things. That maybe aren't, you know, specifically related to architecture. I've been in a few facilitations led by Lego themselves, these wonderful sessions, which I'm sure a few members on the audience have also participated. So getting to know people is key and then bringing them into the mix.

And what I also hear is getting their bodies activated. Yeah. So by using the hands, getting tactile, And when you say playful, what I hear is lowering the bar of failure and risk. So, okay, they're crayons. It's just an activity, an exercise. There's nothing at stake now.

And I tend to always focus on, if you've asked me to facilitate and do this, you've put your trust in me. Remain professional, but also remain humble. You know, egos— the one thing I've noticed is that in any project I've ever participated in, you just need one ego in that room and it will neutralize and kill the whole vibe. That is my biggest touchpoint, is trying to find out that as soon as possible because I know it will generally fail.

Yeah.

And that's a challenge. And I've been caught a few times and you literally just have to just, just, you kind of have to give up and just let it go the way it's gonna go and just realize, yeah, you're not gonna win some. Because failure is an option. And that's what we were touching on previously in the half an hour leading up to this discussion was, you know, this level of professionalism and just some people in it that are just going to be toxic.

Mm-hmm.

They come in with other issues that are not relevant. And that's just human nature. Sometimes you're going to get it, but it's not you as a facilitator. It's, it's them for whatever reason. And I think you've learned that with experience and age. You're not always going to get the yes, and you're not always going to get the positive feedback. Sometimes they're going to be negative, and you're going to build a certain resilience to it. But just realize that always be open to learning, but it's never you that's at fault.

Yeah, that's the most important lesson.

Yeah, some players in the room that can really, really need it, and you got to be strong of character and strong of mind as well to just work with it and work around it.

And to what extent can you be strong in actions? Because as you mentioned, it takes one to destroy the safety that you have built in the space. And I wonder then, obviously it depends on what role they play and how relevant their position is.

Mm-hmm.

How do you deal then with it if you spot this toxic person that might put the entire project at risk?

generally call a timeout immediately and really spend a one-to-one with that person and say, where are we going? You know, what's on your mind? Share it with me. Let's try and get around this. You know, is there a way? And really become a bit like a mediator and negotiator. Because, you know, all what I do, or as an architect in general, we don't paint the picture, we don't sculpt the sculpture. You know, we, we all co-created, everyone in the team, and these teams can be, you know, 20, 30 people, if not more. And then there's that layering beneath it. So stressing that point, you know, we're all going for the common goal, but then also reading the signs and saying, you know, okay, your point is valid. Where can we meet in the middle?

Mm-hmm.

So you, you, you're still going forward. And it's a case of also, so pushing it. I have the advantage that I run my office with my wife and business partner. And I'm fully aware as a male, you know, middle-aged, it's sometimes best that I step out and she steps in. So I have that also at my disposal. So as much as she prefers me to be the forward lead, she's in the room as well. I love it personally because I have that extra pair of eyes and ears. So that I can get the feedback because you're not picking up everything. So if you can facilitate and do these things in groups or in pairs, it's obviously advantageous. But sometimes there is a point that a different perspective makes the difference. And 9 times out of 10, that's how we sort of neutralize it. And so far, so good.

Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. And another point I want to come back to, you mentioned that The professors you have met, they, they're quite humble and love their work and their domain. They do their research. And then suddenly you're opening the space to a creative, something creative that they're not in control of. They have to rely on the expertise of others. How do you bridge that? So how to enroll people who are usually Soul workers or thinkers?

I don't know if I'm ashamed to say it, but I'm going to be honest.

Yes, please.

I try and make them feel it's their idea.

Always works best.

Just, you know, really, we're all going in the same direction. If you need to feel that, be my guest. I really, I don't have that necessity to always be on top, top dog, front of house, whatever you want to call it. And I think that's just a great one, you know, just being humble, just really not having a big enough ego that you sort of kill that. Because, but when I say that also, is that person that important?

Mm-hmm.

Because I do feel that in some cases that the second or third or the person that's trying to elevate his or herself and coming up in their career, you know, I think of the Icelandic football team always. You know, or the Jamaican bobsled team, you know, these concepts of people that are just absolutely driven and are really out of context. And you wouldn't assume that because of teamwork and coming together, because there's no, you know, Galactico or, you know, using the sport term, maybe we should sort of leave that and go maybe to musical, you know, where we don't have this single entity. But when you get that whole team playing from one sheet, One hymn sheet, one score is a beautiful thing to listen to. And that's that really fine point of trying to find that. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And I would argue that in most cases, I feel I failed. I think I could have done it better. But that's also because I'm a person that is constantly criticizing myself on how to do it better and asking people to give me observations. You know, these people are not necessarily friends because sometimes friends aren't that honest with you. But I think there's always something to learn. And I made reference to that before, you know, we started this interview was last week I was in Dubai. You know, as much as you understand cultures and you read and you learn about etiquette, until you're in the room, you make mistakes. Just be honest. You just really say, you know, I apologize, I wasn't supposed to, you know, It's wonderful to me, or whatever, but be humble about it. Just be human and don't try and compound these, these errors that you've made and continually go down the same direction. I think using humor and, you know, really dropping yourself below, I think, also neutralizes things quite significantly.

Yeah, yeah. And normalizing that in the end we are all human beings, and especially in your case, you're coming together with a really around a shared vision.

But I have to be totally frank also, you know, these are the things I've learned possibly in the last 3 to 4 years. You know, I've been doing this for 20. It's a long, hard struggle. And you realize that, you know, that's the whole point of age, maturity, growing up. You go through these, these evolutions all the time. So what I'm telling you now, literally, it's only started happening in the last 2 or 3 years. Before that, there's a lot of train wrecks and a lot of mess-ups and a a lot of failure. But being allowed to learn from my own failure has been allowing me to put me in this position now.

And also be more generous with the failures of others.

Yes.

And I think that's what we often refer to as the inner work, the inner growth journey, that at the end, yes, it's great if you're a content matter, subject matter expert and you know all the content. If then you're unable to applied collaboratively with others, it will fall flat. And yeah, and I was just wondering, because for me similarly, I grew up in the higher education sector, right? Universities where it's not necessarily the culture of yes-anding each other and building on each other's ideas. It's very rough. The feedback we get is very direct, very cruel sometimes. It's very competitive.

Mm-hmm.

And then suddenly bringing people into the space who might not have had the chance to grow this self-awareness and empathy and even the language of how do we respond to an idea that we don't agree with. And I often refer to an experience. I was in a summer school as a PhD student, and we had this professor from Harvard. Leibson was his name.

Mm-hmm.

Of course, everyone wanted to impress him. And I really remember this one situation where I said something in class and he looked at me and said, yes, Myriam, and have you thought of... and would say the exact opposite.

Hmm.

And this was the moment where I realized how you can, through language, create the space where it feels safe to say something stupid or to fail, because he could have also said, no, Myriam, that's wrong. And then I would have been in overthinking mode, bashing myself, and didn't even have— wouldn't have had the capacity to listen to the answer.

That's where you have to put yourself in other people's shoes. I try and role reverse, you know, and go through certain scenarios that have played out for me and say, you know, we all have moments where outside of our professional life, our personal life sometimes influences. And you're a bit short or you're a bit, you know, a bit too direct or you overgo it a bit. And then you have to also be aware of saying, you know, okay, yeah, put on the other— if I was in that person's shoes, how would have I reacted? You know, I'd probably take it the same way. And I think that's also a good analogy, shifting the dialogue always to look at it from the other perspective.

Yeah.

Um, and then the other one is also participating in great facilitation events. Or be in an environment learning from other facilitators. I recently had an experience last Thursday. Aaron, his name was, I forget his surname, worked for the Singaporean ministry, fantastic facilitator, headed up their futures and foresight. And what a personality, just so energized, vivacious, had a structure, a really great structure. It was on foresight mechanisms and how to facilitate a good foresight meeting, going back to the purpose of this interview. And just one or two visuals, but just really allowed the room to go with it, dropped in a lot of personal stories that were humorous and funny, but then also always brought it back, but wasn't so fixed in his structure that he lost the moments in the room. And he really got everybody involved. And we had some, some power people from the UN, from various other high-level agencies, and there were about 20 of us. To actually watch it happen is wonderful. And then to have those facilitators, you know, like for me, yourself, or a Chris Lukeman or a Bruno Giussani that have done this as a career, that you can then sort of phone up and ask, or, you know, they were in the room, or they are your semi-mentor because you're preparing for a particular, you know, a bit more sort of public sort of facilitation, be an interview or whatever. Also, you know, we, we're, we're all, we all have similar hangups and preoccupations, you know. Share knowledge. It's not a competition. It's actually to provide a better experience for the others that are participating. And this is where that collaboration and cooperation is key.

Yeah, the moment we can come together as equals and really have this humility to actually learn, and the moment we are open to actually look at others to learn from them, because I think you can only appreciate the mastery of a skill If you know just a little bit, at least a little bit about it. Because then you see, oh, how did they do that? How did they shift the conversation? How did they switch from conflict to curiosity? Otherwise, you wouldn't notice that.

No, correct. And that's where being open and, yeah, a little less— I would even throw in the word masculine. You know, masculine men, generally, we're very competitive. We like to be the top dog. and realizing that that doesn't necessarily get you far. It's also good just to sort of, you know, step it down, be confident, have that confidence and that courage to present your point, but also realize when the moment is right to overplay it or not, and to sort of try the other perspective. And, you know, a moment of silence in the room is also a powerful tool that I had to learn And it took me a long time to learn just to take that time out, let people digest it. Let people even take a minute's silence just to really process what's been asked of them or what's required of them.

Yeah. Also respecting the slow thinkers in the room. Slow and deep. Yeah. And the silence also reminds me of a story you shared before we hit the record button at the beginning of a conference, multinational conference, starting with the Marina Abramović eye gazing.

Yeah.

And how this— I think what is so fascinating about it, because it puts the attention to, oh, we're dealing with humans.

It makes you observe. It makes you actually work or connect with someone with your other senses. And I say that very sort of openly. A lot of our— we are very visual. Everything's very visual and we're driven by a lot of sound and music. I don't think it's— there's a reason why we were able to create audiovisual experiences, and that's why it's predominant in our society. But we also lose sight of the fact that neuroscience has quite clearly defined and shown that 40% of what we actually visually take in is what we remember. The other 60% is what we actually create in our mind. Through biases, experience, and all things. So the majority is actually based on our past and what we've actually assimilated or collected. But when you're forced to sit in a situation where you don't know the other person on the other side of the table and you are to just stare into that person's eyes for a minute, and this was actually done at the House of Beautiful Business at their event in Dubai, which is a wonderful organization looking at other ways of doing you know, these interactions, it's incredible to watch how the body responds because you cut out the voice, you cut out the ears, so to speak, and you're just literally communicating through eye contact and how you sort of— the body, you— we both just naturally started to like— but we took time, you know, like 10 seconds, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, and actually seeing people. And this is also linked to what we said about the greetings and, and professional— when you actually talk with someone Look into their eyes, but also being mindful in certain cultures. This certain age, you you you don't do that. You know, being understanding of those ethics, and this is how we become more multicultural societies. This is going to become a bigger thing. It's always been there. I just think we're becoming more aware of it because not one way of doing things is opposing or sort of being repotente. on the other, dominating. And I think we're becoming a bit more mindful of this.

And then also calling or being aware of the biases, as you say, that show up. And then I think having the opportunity to call that out without judgment, but that it's just a normal way of our brains functioning. I remember I was recently in a workshop by Margriet Jacobs, and she did that on Zoom. So we were paired with one other person, just staring at the screen with the eyes. It's a bit difficult. And then, um, after a minute, pointing out what we believe we have in common without, without speaking with the other person.

Without speaking.

And that was a beautiful activity on many levels. One, because we, yes, we look at the person and We become aware of all of our projections.

We do.

And one participant who was joining from Israel, she was extremely touched because she said that she grew up, and especially over the past year or longer, to look for differences and constantly highlighting differences, and suddenly being invited to see similarities and to spot on that without being distracted by language. or words. It's very beautiful. It is.

It's like we had this, uh, I refer to this, this foresight workshop we had on ethics and foresight, and around the table we had Kazakhstan, South Africa, Swiss, Hong Kong, France, and America. Oh, very—

what a mix.

Very nice. But actually facilitation allowed the group to go very strong personalities in the 7, because we had 2 facilitators, and then the 5 of us, I was the only male. So it was, it was really a pleasure. And it was 3 hours. This wasn't just half an hour. And we didn't really know each other. So that's a long time together. And we didn't actually have many breaks. It just went. That's the dynamic of it. But how different cultural perspectives played such a huge influence on the dialogue and being able to listen to the differences, but also the similarities, going back to your point. And this is also something about capturing this understanding of differences and similarities.

Yeah.

Because sometimes you, you want, you know, I look for people that are not of my, let's put it this way, not of my profession, because I look to be challenged. Because having too many of the same people in the same room can also be a little bit, you know, one-dimensional. It's also trying to find that balance. And I think that's the key. You know, I look at things in holistic, you know, what's it, what's it in a holistic sense? And I think more spherical than I do in circularities or linear.

Yeah.

There's all different sides to the, to that sphere. You know, the classic one is the different side of the world is, you know, the classic view of the world we see is land. The other side is water. But that's also a side. It's also perspective. The same with the moon. You see, All these things you need to go from the other side. And what I often do, you know, we, we hit a bit of a design block as a design process in designing drawings or plans. I tell some of my team, just literally turn it upside down, look at it from another way. And also don't keep beating it. You know, if you can't and you've got a block, move on to something else. You know, even go for a walk, go for a run, do something, come back to it. Allow yourself that time because then different stimulus, different things that happen. Because I think a lot of what we do also is too fixed in time. You need those times away in order to do it again. How you actually make that work and how you actually get remunerated, I struggle. It's a difficult one. But that time away, as much as the time together, is just as powerful.

Yeah. Yes. It reminds me of Cal Newport's book Slow Productivity, where he refers to the fact that there's very little academic research on productivity in the modern knowledge age because there's no way to actually measure it.

Okay, interesting.

Because in the industrial age, it's very clear, okay, it's the time you use for the output you get, the time and money, so the resource you use for the output you get. In the knowledge age, sometimes you get an idea in a split of a second because you studied for 20 years, sometimes because you didn't study, sometimes it takes longer. So what is the component of time as opposed to output, and what does productivity actually mean nowadays? That crossed my mind as you spoke about women in innovation.

I'm gonna get a book reference from you after this because that sounds interesting. That's a new one to me, but I'd love to read more.

Yeah. A beautiful book on many, many levels, Slow Productivity.

Okay.

And what I hear, what is the opportunity of what you do is that you can actually curate the groups and find the different stakeholders that would complement each other, that you can work with, but also challenge the different perspectives in a certain way. And I would be curious to hear what your curation process is, because we also spoke about the toxic people and to what extent— so how can you ensure that you're open enough to different perspectives without falling over the edge? And then from there, I would love to build the bridge to the practical implementations for what happens after the discussion.

Okay. First, like anything, most of these interactions start randomly. Because I'm at an event or a certain person, you know, how, like how we got introduced. There's some storyline that happens before that or some person or activity that makes it happen. And I literally go on gut feeling. I see something in a person, I see an energy, I have a discussion briefly, and then I try and take it out of that context as a one-to-one, a deviant person. I know for me, within 3 conversations, generally maximum 5, I kind of have learned about you as a person enough to realize, you know, the 3 things I really look for are what are, what is your curiosity?

Hmm.

You know, what is your creativity? Because I believe everyone's creative. I don't necessarily believe because if you don't draw, you don't sketch, you're not creative. I think there's creativity everywhere. It's just finding it. And then kind of your competence, you know, what is your real driver? What is your passion? What are you, what are you good at? What do you really want to do? And, and these things can simmer. I mean, I've had some projects that have simmered for 3 or 4 years before we've actually found the means and we've actually activated. Some have happened in, in days.

Hmm.

It's just being open to that before then bringing the 4 or 5 or 3 in the case people to the group that are like the core driving group of generally we build consortiums around, uh, research grants and, and sort of foundation funding. Always try and keep to, you know, an odd number. Even numbers can be challenging. It is nice to have a bit of an odd number so that you drive it. I have had one incident where it has really fallen through, but simply because I have spent the time and effort to get to know the individual personalities and really listening to what their interests are and where they want to go. A lot of people I am dealing with in research, so academics, are quite clear in their vision. It is then highlighting to them, oh, by the way, you know, if you did that, in this context with this other person, I think, and then they start seeing it. And then once we have that in play, then we have about 2 or 3 sort of workshop sessions, which I generally lead. And the way I started is I do a 2 to 3 pager of, of really looking at, you know, what's the whole contribution, what's the problem, what we're trying to solve, references, anything that then people can drop into. Sometimes it depends on the platform. People are more, you know, Excel spreadsheet or Word doc. Sometimes it's a Miro board, but it comes around discussion. And I think the biggest thing I've learned is this. It's all about the people. You've got to get that mix right. If you get that wrong, you know, if you've got one particular entity, as I say, going back to the ego, when we said sort of started this conversation about 40, 45 minutes ago, That really blows it. So I try and find that out first. And then, you know, we've put 7, 7 consortiums together so far. We've been successful with 5.

Wow.

I think that's just because of the power of the people, but also being mindful of the fact that you have to play the politics. You have to have the right players. And I realized that because actually where I'm calling you from and where I'm based is in the southern part of Switzerland. We're on the sort of the border with Italy, and I live in rural Switzerland. So I live at the base of the Swiss Alps. And having lived here in a very small community for the last 15 years, you realize this is a microcosm of society in general. You only need those 4 or 5 families or names that the rest follow in a way, rightly or wrongly. But there are those influences. Let's use this sort of current terminology, good ones, that if you have them in a group or part of the discussion and you empower them, obviously they've got to fit. Obviously they've got to be part of it. They can be very, very good in that binding of everyone together. They become like that, that mycelium.

Mm-hmm.

They really join everyone together and they see this vision and then just really allowing people the opportunity to create it themselves. I really focus on creating just a, a simple structure that then allows you to co-create into it, not come and say, you know, this is my way of doing it, and not having that colonial mentality of just, you know, lambasting everyone with this, this is it, you gotta buy in kind of thing. But I don't believe in if you design it, they will come. I think you need to really build it together. There's a reason why spaces and places in the world have succeeded because they weren't planned. They were very organic. Yeah. And they're not that predefined, you know, very sort of grid. And I follow that as a principle. And then once people sort of get buy-in is to really allow them to fly with it. Because I also have this other sort of thing. I'd rather know now if, you know, it's gonna go wrong by empowering you and letting you go with it with the risks associated around trust and everything else because trust is a huge one. You know, I always remember the saying, I forget by who, you know, the rate of change, how does it go? The rate of change happens at trust. You know, how much you trust defines how much you change something. That is also what I found essential to know upfront. Just let it run, let it be a bit organic, and then get to a point. Obviously, I'm not doing traditional facilitation where you're in for a day or in for— so to actually put that into that context, I would find difficult. And I would love to know more about how you would do that. Medium, because I have that luxury of time, which I touched on earlier, making that time allow for things to distill and sort of settle. So you have activation and you have this distillation process. And that's how I play, because I'm the main driver in it. And knowing that I can determine that time, I'm not, I'm not rushing. So I try and play with that as best I can.

Thank you for walking us through. I think it's very interesting.

Oh, or you can bring some coffee and some Lego and a few games. That also spices it up.

Yeah, and so the start with relationships first and connection over content reminds me of the 2 founders of Netflix. They started the company by— they decided that they wanted to do something together, so they would share a drive every morning, commute to work together, and every day one of them would come up with a potential business idea. And they would challenge it.

Okay.

And it took them maybe a year of everyday commuting until they had the idea, and they started building, prototyping and building it. And then what I hear is the first having this basis, this small circle of trusted peers, and then growing it slowly. And once the odd numbers, and then starting with hard facts. So Making it explicit. Here's the 2 pages with everything that we know. Can we agree on that? And can we start from that? And I think where it goes wrong in many organizations, because when I think of your process and how you describe it, why would it be different for any meeting a manager hosts? And I think the lack of preparation, the lack of time, the lack of relationship building, the lack of ensuring that we are based on common ground and shared knowledge. Okay, these are the facts. And then the lack of courage not to invite certain people. I think that very often it grows too big too fast, especially online, because we have so many chairs.

Mm-hmm.

And then the odds are higher, of course, that this one rotten tomato, this one toxic person will be there. by a lack of curation.

Yeah, start small, you know, don't be too ambitious. Sometimes that's hard to quantify, but I think you lose a lot if you have like more than 20 people in a room. I think if you're dealing with 100, you know, wow, you are seriously skilled and you need multiple points then, but then you need to really be clear on how that works. I've never been in that experience. I've seen it done. You know, I would argue that the biggest meeting I've ever had to facilitate is between 15 and 20. So that's definitely my comfort zone. And I enjoy that.

And then it really depends on the purpose of the meeting and what are you doing with the outcomes. I interviewed the co-founder of the Liberating Structures, Henry Lipianovitz, who was specialized on creating very simple structures to facilitate very large meetings and to boil them down to decision-making. But then it depends on the context, and is there one decision, or can you actually continue to collaborate with 100, or do you just need their buy-in and their first ideas? Which then leads me to, to another point. In workshop facilitation, we often speak about the day after. Okay, so obviously for you it's a longer process, but at some point you have assembled all the ideas, you have all the experts, and then there's a practical implementation.

Yeah.

So what are the learnings in that? So how do you get from the idea on paper to, okay, let's start and keep the momentum?

First one is empowering individuals, but giving them a clear deadline and say, right, in 3, 4 months' time, we have to have this in play. It might be a proposal, it might be a handover of a set of drawings at a certain scale, whatever. But, A, having that deadline, I always end every meeting, okay, next meeting is, next hand-in is. Just as architects, we are deadline-driven. We, you know, it's the nature of the game and the business. But also maintaining momentum means having regular catch-ups. I think it's fundamental. There's some people that are just straight by and just go and start working away, chipping away. Also being of the realization that some people cram it at the end. You know, it's— there's all these different gradients of different personalities in these groups. It's trying to sort of manage them. But I really kick into very much a project management mentality then. And that's where I shift my personality and become very, you know, regimented and say, right, we're gonna have this, we're gonna meet this, we're gonna meet every 2 weeks. This is what your deadline, this is what you're handing. There's the shared doc. You know, if no one's performing, you're sort of pulling them aside and saying, you know, why, what's up, you know, can we discuss? And then what happens is I've generally found that I then get to a point where I step back.

Hmm.

Because by that stage in a successful proposal, there is generally one person that really just brings everyone together, and he or she is just much more skilled at it than I am, a lot more respected in the circle that I'm in, and it's generally related to a professional level or most cases on an academic side, you know, getting your professional investigator, your PI, involved, it is generally a person that is sitting at a very high level, his or her chair, his or her sort of laboratory, and then they really kick into the responsibility of it because it is their name.

Hmm.

So, it is also knowing when to step back. You know, it sometimes gets to the point that you are facilitating something that you are not actually going to have your name on it or it's not gonna be your face that's gonna be the conclusion of this. So it's also allowing them to sort of get to that point where then they take over, then you step back and you're more of a supporting role.

Yeah.

How can I help? How can I, you know, we've got this far. It's going through that journey with you the whole time and then saying, right, okay, we know where we've got to go. We know how this is gonna be successful. We've all got buy-in now. That's pretty clear. You know, and also sometimes it's just the star alignment doesn't work. I've had some situations be ready for the proposal, ready for the hand-in, but sometimes you need to pull the plug and say we revisit this in a month or 2 because a personal situation happens or something happens in one of the group because XYZ. Just realizing things are changeable. You know, sometimes programs are programs, but they end up changing. I accept trying to keep as close to it, you know, but I've learned the hard way, being someone that's very programmed myself and very structured and very, you know, driven and determined, that sometimes you just need to put it off because you risk then just making the whole thing explode because you put too much pressure on.

And that's such an important observation, the you stepping back as a Leaving more space for others to step in as a project manager. And I can see how this is difficult, coming back to the inner game, to the ego, to the humility, because it is your baby. And I can imagine that there is then this polarity between trust and control. Yes, I want to trust them, but can I really, and can I let go of control?

And what's fair, I think also it's based on contribution, and I think this is a very open discussion. Most of the time it does come down to, in project management terms, you know, what's the quality you're producing? You know, what's the time you're putting in and what is the cost or remuneration that you're expecting?

Yeah. And what are the opportunity costs?

You can't avoid them. You have to approach that. And I approach them as soon as we know we're a concrete team and this is what we're going for. And that's the objective. You put that on the table immediately. Don't avoid it because you need to know that everyone's bought in on multiple levels. It's not just an interest and then it shifts and then, you know, I'm the most important.

I'm—

this is me. This is what I want because that will break everything. I mean, you've literally wasted your time.

Yeah. And we cannot pay mortgage from just a shared vision.

And this is where culture comes in. And I think also personalities come in. Some cultures are much more direct. Just realizing that there's a moment that you're going to have to say these things, you're going to have to say some hard things, do it nicely. There's always a way of how to say these things, but I find it beneficial to say it earlier rather than later. But the timing is essential because you can blow it.

Because you don't want to be too far in so that it's almost a point of no return where either you break it or And not too early, because then suddenly it's all about the money.

Yeah, because also we're involved in projects that also involves IP.

Of course.

And so when that drops on the table, the beauty is if you're working for certain publicly funded grants, it's not a situation, but we're having more now, more interest on some sort of smaller topics that are key around material science, nanotechnology, biotech, these kind of things. IP becomes a huge topic, huge, and you need to get it out immediately.

And there's no wiggle room for let's trust each other.

So you've got to run with it, but at the same time, you've got to sort of be wary that this will rear its head. And so far, so good. I've had only one really bad experience that you just literally had to run away from, and that's it. You know, it happens, but it's best to sort of cut your losses if that's the case immediately. Yeah, just forget about it, move on.

Yeah, the sun costs are sunk anyway. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly. And there's a lot of people out there in the world as well. So it's, you know, this— it's all about the people. Connect with the right people. And I generally find that that generally is a good start. And follow your gut feeling. You know, that sort of— this is where age comes in. I wish I— if I was younger, You know, I would definitely listen to my heart rather, you know, too much to my head, but then also knowing when to be more intelligent about it and less emotional, then flip it. You know, those are the key drivers and on all levels. And there is those different levels of intelligence that you, you have the ability to tap into, but you've got to trust it and feel it.

Yeah. Yeah, and maybe that's the biggest challenge, to know when to flip it.

Correct. And this is why I try, and I most, 9 times out of 10, I have this double act because it's a husband and wife team. It's a partnership we've been running for 20 years. It's our investment. It's our— so having that for me is invaluable because you have this trust immediately between the two of you, and then you have a different perspective.

And there again, you need to—

By yourself, that's, that's, that's, that's a lot. It's a lot depending on the size of the group anyway, but some, some manage it much better than others and others struggle. It's just the way of life.

Yeah. And then again, it needs another form of very good, clear communication if there's also the personal relationship and the, and the marriage, uh, being part of it.

It is a lot of communication. It's a lot of, you know, trust. It's time together, you know, working with that person. And I hear of so many situations, not just in facilitation or management, but in companies where they fall down generally because of trust.

Yeah, that's what one says. People join organizations because of the brand and the name, and they leave because of the culture and the manager. What remains your facilitation challenge?

I would like to— I am very much a believer in the words of Nelson Mandela. And, you know, if you speak to someone in their language, you speak to their heart. And I think that living in Central Europe, being more involved in now projects that are also sort of expanding into Africa, you know, more eastwards, being able to actually not just be fluent in that language, but to have some phrases and have some understandings of people's culture and language references is very, very useful. And living in Switzerland, understanding, you know, speaking Italian and Spanish myself, but also having that ability to understand the nuances of language, be it German, be it French, whatever, in where I'm immediately and yourself, you know, in the Benelux region, it's very powerful. that, that really brings it into another level because you really do disconnect from the head and really go for the heart. And that, I find, would be a wonderful tool to have more at my disposal. Um, that's why I repeat, my wife is a person that speaks 5 languages. So whenever she has that at her disposal, I am very thankful but also very jealous at the same time because I wish I could have that sort of like polyglot ability to learn because I find languages so difficult. It's just not my way. I'm more visual. I'm less, you know, with words. So it's something I would love to have at my disposal because I think it's also a wonderful tool. It's very personal.

Has it ever become a challenge then for you not to be able to This kind of mismatch, not being able to communicate in other people's native language?

I've only experienced it once or twice ever. A handful of times where I've made a comment once or twice where I've been in an environment in Switzerland where the conversation has been led in Swiss German. I'm just using it as a context. I'm not being specific in any way whatsoever, but you do have certain dialects that are prevalent. When you have people in the room that are not from a particular region, be it a village or a valley, because that's generally where it is, just be mindful that certain languages are languages for some and others aren't. And I've had to turn around and say, you know, if it's in Hochdeutsch and because it's in the context of my or our industry and our discussion, architecture engineering, I can I understand and I respect your language. I do. Just be mindful that I will be responding in English, you know. But then on the other side, I'm very sort of blown away by the whole Swiss multiple languages and all that and how everyone does it, you know, from, from a young age. And the same in your region when I was there. You know, there's sort of this, this mix of language. Certain cultures have these multiple linguistics. And then let's not even get into you know, India and Africa, you know, how they mine. For me, that's incredible. But it's very much within the DNA of those regions, and it's very much of them. So these are things I'm mindful of. So I've only ever had to do it once or twice, you know, just please, otherwise there's no point in me being here, and I'd rather not interrupt and just step out the room.

Yeah, which makes sense. We've spoken for more than an hour.

Is it that long?

Yes.

Wow. I wasn't aware of that. And we need to add half an hour before. It's always a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Yes. Is there anything that you would have wanted to share that we didn't touch upon?

Oh, maybe it's a book because you mentioned a book that I'm definitely going to get the title from. One book that stood out to me, I was recommended it 2 years ago. on the power of storytelling and the powering of, you know, literally creating these fil rouge, these connections between people. It's called Sand Talk, and it's by Tyson Yunkapoo.

Yes.

And I think—

Aboriginal writer.

Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. You know, learning from a, you know, a tech basis and a scientific, but then connecting it back to his, you know, native Aboriginal Australia. And I really like that, that gradients of connecting it all together. And I think there's a, there's a necessity, and he uses the term, uh, what's called yarning, where you sort of weave things together. And I think this is something that I find myself trying to bring in, because I think if you tell personal stories in a creative way, you really tend to get people sort of to, to buy in. You sort of It's a different way of looking at professionalism, you know, talking what we talked previously. I think we need to also realize that it is about people, and that's how I would—

Thank you for reminding me because he agreed to come on the podcast.

I'll listen to that one.

I have to refresh this.

I highly recommend because that would be—

And Zen Talk is a beautiful book for facilitators too. Learn from the Aboriginal culture. Thank you. I always leave conversations with you with at least 2 or 3 book recommendations that are piling up in my living room, so I need to take a sabbatical now.

But as I say always, Myriam, always, always to be continued. And I look forward to our next conversation, wherever that may be. And hopefully with our work in your region, we'll be there sooner rather than later. and vice versa, you're always welcome to join us and visit us down here in Switzerland as well.

Thank you. Pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. I hope that you found the inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for. And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator. From across the world. I'm devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, please help us. Visit workshops.work/support to make a small donation. To keep the podcast free. Thank you so much. I hope to be in your ears next week.