307 - From Sober Raves to Corporate Joy with Jacques The Party Scientist

What does it take to make workshops work? And how can we facilitate collaboration that sticks and leads to results? My name is Miriam Hadnes, and with the Workshops Work podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work. Today with me on the show is a returning guest, Jacques the Party Scientist, and we speak about his recent successes, having accumulated 30,000 followers on Instagram, now hosting sober raves and corporate parties. And we speak about boundaries, we speak about joy, we speak about community and success. So stay tuned and scroll down to the show notes to find more links to reach out to Jacques and to subscribe to the show if you enjoy it. Thank you for listening. Jacques, the party scientist, welcome. Returning guest, third time.

Every time, every time I come into this, this virtual space, I feel so happy and eager, and I'm looking forward to deep conversations about very personal things.

I'm looking forward. I'm very curious. And it's so funny because I've never invited someone for a third time. I'm very picky, almost never invite someone for the second time. And having followed your journey and your growth and the development of your business and personality, I'm so intrigued that, yeah, it was time for a third interview. And maybe you can share quickly what is, what are you up to? What has happened since we talked last time?

Well, you see, Myriam, ever since I started the Joy Cult, things have been very— no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, everyone. But I will say that when you become a really good facilitator and you make people feel really happy, some people are going to raise their eyebrow and be like, that person's trying to manipulate people. And that's what's happened a few times online. But yeah, Myriam, it has been, I would say, I would say that this has been the greatest year for me and a rollercoaster of emotions, but I have gained the most confidence I've ever had as a facilitator and as a social norm disruptor. And lots of things have taken place, good things, bad things. But I'm just approaching 2025 with a larger possible future for what I can achieve as a facilitator. Not just achieve, but like, what can I create for groups, right? What is actually possible with group facilitation, with community building? And I'm excited.

Yeah. And maybe as a little bit of context and framing, So you— we met during the pandemic, and you hosted the Never Done Before closing party, where many have experienced for the first time that you can have so much fun dancing behind a screen.

Every time. And I just want to highlight a memory. I think at one point we put on I Just Died in Your Arms Tonight, and everyone was on the floor imagining like a revival process. And surprisingly, everyone did it. So that was a good time.

Yes. And in the meantime, you're now hosting sober rave parties. And you accumulated 30,000 followers on Instagram. And also now public speaking or facilitating joy, facilitating sober dancing at corporate events. How did you go from being the crazy dude who walks down the pedestrian zone with a huge speaker?

Oh my gosh.

To being the person who is actually taken seriously speaking about joy and community?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're so right. You know, as, as you paint the picture of me going down the street, In public. Yeah, I used to do that before I called myself the Party Scientist. I was the banana from Canada and I didn't care how unseriously people perceived me, right? I wasn't trying to be a public speaker or anything. I just knew that when I was goofy, everyone on the street ignited and had fun with me. And that was like back in 2019. And the first thing that comes to mind, Myriam, is just the sharpening of the saw. I have been journaling about my facilitation experiences. I have been listening to my experiences. I always record my experiences and then listen to them and, and write notes. And so, I've just been sharpening my saw for the last 5 years. And finally, I'm hitting this point where my experiences are so different and so effective. And, I'm at this point where I just know which activities resonate with participants regardless of their introversion or extroversion level. And it's just kind of caught fire and I'm getting referrals now. I'm getting referrals. And as a— as the most entertaining referral that I just got was from a company that manufactures like flooring. I've gone corporate.

Pretty cool.

But I would just say like, we can't underestimate the incrementality of giving yourself feedback every single day. And I'm very intentional with giving myself feedback every single day through a very serious journaling practice that I never miss. And I think that's really it. Like, if we just focus on getting 1% better every day, eventually we're going to get to this point where people are like, that is so amazing that I don't even need to see your website. I don't need to see your LinkedIn. Like, I'm totally inactive on LinkedIn. Don't do anything on LinkedIn. And yet I'm getting these referrals because I've sharpened myself.

Beautiful. And what is it that you do differently today compared to back then when you say that now it's independent of how introverted or extroverted someone is? So what are you doing differently? And I have another question that I will write down.

Yeah, you met me. I remember actually we were, we were going to record a podcast and I started arrogantly talking about the power of dance, and that was the only thing I knew. I was like, dance is the solution to everything.

Yeah.

You know, there's a practice called authentic relating which really influenced my development, and I'm— you've done some Trainings?

I didn't do training, but I interviewed Yanniv Rose on authentic relating, and I was in a few sessions, and I just did a radical honesty weekend, which is very similar.

Wow, definitely want to hear about that because that's, uh, you know, the, the people pleaser in each of us does not like radical honesty. But yeah, so I read a book about authentic relating and immediately I just realized this is what's missing from my experiences is these verbal ways of connecting and bringing the nonverbal and combining it with some of these verbal practices for creating, you know, vulnerable spaces. And so I think that's been a big transition. I think it's really important. To use the body, these somatic practices. I, I'm a huge fan of laughter yoga. I've been doing this in my events. Have, have you tried laughter yoga in any of your sessions?

No. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. There's this one video on Instagram. It's gone viral. It's like 7 million views. And it's this game, this laughter yoga game that I played with all my participants at my Joy Camp. Which is a summer camp health retreat. And it's really simple. You put up your finger like this and you pretend to zap people.

Mm-hmm.

Okay? It's like electric shock. You're giving someone an electric shock. And once you touch someone, you're zapping them into laughter. And like, you'd think that this is just crazy. Like, that's so fake, but it, it's so, when you're in a group, Everyone starts to laugh and there's just this silliness. And then finally you feel the flood of healthy neurochemicals. So I think I went on a tangent there about laughter yoga.

And it's interesting that you say that you, what you're doing differently is to bring the verbal to the somatic experience. And I wonder whether it has to do with your level of confidence. Because having seen you early then, you were the party scientist. You facilitated dance that was nonverbal, and you were very good at it. And I think to then use the verb, you can also hide behind this experience of not speaking and being the DJ and the goofy one. As soon as you bring in the verbal and the vulnerable, you suddenly have to hold space differently because you don't know What small t, big T trauma will come up and where the group will be going.

Well said. Well said. Yeah, what you're really getting at is like the different expressions of vulnerability. And I think about myself, and I don't think I have a lot to hide from other people. So my experience of vulnerability is different these days, today, Mm-hmm. But there's vulnerability to personal disclosure and there's vulnerability to goofiness and looking stupid, right? Or just not looking good. And I think that's definitely a part of it. But the irony is when I'm facilitating, I'm usually not that vulnerable. I could tell more stories to like give people permission. You're just making me think that oftentimes I will just set up the activity and I will remove myself and take the mic for as little time as possible. But yeah, no, the verbal activities, the most successful verbal activity that I get consistent positive feedback for is a storytelling exercise about the most challenging moment in one's life. And so it combines listening, vulnerability, authentic relating, and then, you know, there's no interruptions. It's a non-conversational activity. And then people will appreciate at the end of the session, they'll practice appreciation for what was shared. This is an example of an activity I've only discovered and implemented in the last year. Like, I didn't do any of this. It was just all fun. It was just all dance, honestly. It wasn't even games, right?

Yeah.

Tell me about this balance of somatic, verbal, and your evolution. Have you been moving toward one or the other?

I think I'm very verbal in my facilitation. And nowadays, so I do very little facilitation anymore and I do mostly training. And I would start, especially the corporate trainings, I would start with a collective stretch. So if you're comfortable, get off your chair and let's do a little stretch together. And if you don't want to stretch your body, or if you don't want to show yourself in the camera, you can stretch in your mind, or you can stretch your mind. And this really makes a difference to bring the body into the session. But then that's about it in terms of embodiment in my— My work.

Yeah, yeah. You know, in the last year, I've really like sharpened my message as well about how important— every session I do starts with principle number 1, which is cultivating a physiological state. And so that's become like the stepping stone. And I think in the, in the past It was the purpose. The purpose was let's elevate our vibe, let's change our physiological state. But now it's let's change our physiological state so that we can connect on a deeper level and share appreciation and feel safe with one another so that we can do other things. So, it's much more of a sequential exercise as opposed to— Like, you know, when I was throwing these sober dance parties, there was no closing ceremony. There was no opening ceremony. It was just fun. And then everyone left. And there was a feeling of like connection, but there wasn't closure, right? There was no ritual. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's interesting. It sounds as if you went from facilitating individual experiences to facilitating community and connection?

You know, I would say, I think we, we're thinking alike here, but for me, what's happened is I've scaled down the experiences, meaning it used to just all be group activities where the group is doing something and And now I'm realizing there's this magic in the small groups. There's this magic in the pairs, pairing people up.

Mm-hmm.

And there's so much more. It's like scalable vulnerability. You can warm people up with these community exercises like a huddle or group laughter yoga or summer camp games. But then when you get people in these pairs and in these small groups, The level of acceptable vulnerability.

Mm-hmm.

The level of acceptable vulnerability goes up because there's less eyes, right? And so now it's— and I also want to share that I just used to be so focused on quantity of friendship over depth of friendship. And so my own personal relationship philosophy has changed a lot. Toward this, like, let's have these small group experiences, right? And, you know, I'm younger than you, so you've, you've, you've already learned that, I'm sure.

I would frame it differently. It just reminds me that at the end of the day, we all try to solve our own problems. So especially when we're building a company or we are freelancers, I had the impression what it all boils down to is We are finding a way to solve our own problem, and then usually there are other people who have the same problem as we have, and these are the people we're attracting. So yeah, it sounds as if first you wanted to have lots of friends and create these community events, quantity, and now it's more the depth and the intimacy.

Intimacy. Yeah, so this, this event that I I'm really excited about is called Joy Camp. And there's just so much research on this, that the health benefits of positive touch, intimacy, eye contact, all these nonverbal metrics for healthy human connection. And one thing I'm really curious about is creating these platonically intimate spaces where people can get closer to each other and like experience more affection. So that's something that I'm also navigating. I have brought it into some of my corporate experiences, but very like surface level. But that's something also that I'm really curious about and learning more about right now.

That's very interesting because I think there is a global problem of loneliness. In Dutch, there's a beautiful word, houthonger, which is hunger of the skin, being skin hungry. So missing touch. And, and I think that's something that is kind of taboo. People don't talk about it because nobody wants to be needy. And I think it's—

Totally.

It's not the hunger for sexuality, it's intimacy without sexuality. It's As you described it, this platonic. And I would love to hear how you intend or maybe approach that in the corporate space, because I think that's very juicy, right? Because these are also all just humans.

Yeah.

So why do you think that your sober raves, your sober parties, and Joy Camp are so successful? And to what extent is it similar or different what you do with corporates?

Yes. Why are they so successful and how is it different than corporates? Well, the first thing I'll say, surprisingly, most of the games that I played at Joy Camp, which is my summer camp for really open-minded people who don't want to have their phones with them, or drugs and alcohol.

Yes.

Most of the games I played there, I brought them into this event at this like 5-star Marriott in Texas, and the games worked with 99% participation. And so, I'll just say that initially, I didn't think it was possible for them to merge together. But with enough setup, I incorporated these games at this corporate conference and they went so terrifically well. And so this was a big moment for me, right? Where the worlds were like, oh wait, it's actually possible for ordinary non-hippie people to enjoy and laugh and Can you give an example? Okay, let's do this. So I have these ribbons, I hand them out to groups of 10 people, and one person's at the front of the dragon and one person is at the end of the dragon, and everyone's connected shoulder to shoulder, and the dragons chase each other trying to capture each other's tail. And I got the whole room doing this and everyone's laughing and smiling, and I'm sure, you know, 5% of people were Like, this is weird, but everyone else is enjoying it, so why not? So that was an example. I did laughter yoga exercises, which I don't think it is not very common at all. It was a total experiment. And I played various versions of tag at this corporate conference. And these like games is something new to me as well, like the variety.

Yeah.

And we've been touching on intimacy. We've been talking about touch and skin hunger. What's coming up for me is the difference between like intellectual intimacy and then this emotional intimacy. And I just wanna remind us all that before we had language, most intimacy was like nonverbal and mediated by different brain circuits, like this deeper emotional circuitry.

Mm-hmm.

And so this is why I'm so interested in like these games because it creates this emotional bonding and people can't explain it. And one person came up to me afterward and he said, you felt like you knew everyone in the room. And that's just what neuroscience does, right? Like when you play these games and you get everyone laughing and smiling, It's this mysterious effect, right?

Wow. And you said that you build them up slowly. So what would be— I assume that nobody really knows what awaits them, otherwise they might leave.

Yep, definitely. I build them up slowly. I immediately incorporate movement. And getting people to change their posture. And then during this one event, I got everyone in a big circle, a huddle, and I think I got people to just pair up and share things that they were really grateful for in their lives.

Hmm.

That's how I started. And then I gave people context. And, you know, there's this skill in authentic relating, creating context. And it's just like making the subtext and being really explicit about one's intentions and the goals of what we're sharing, what you as a facilitator are sharing. And, and context giving is so important for motivating people, for making people feel safe. And so I spoke for about 3 minutes about why we're doing what we're doing. And I have the 3 C's of interpersonal joy. That's like my new framework that I developed. And so I gave context to the group. And what this does is it really recruits the rational mind, but really it's not necessary. It's only necessary for participation because once people are emotionally engaged, like they don't need their rational mind anymore.

Yeah, the rational mind is like the, the bouncer. Like, um, do you really make sense? Can you come in here?

What are your favorite ways to warm up people for maybe something like an experiment, right? You're gonna try something new. What do you warm people up with?

Similar. First, the stretching. Get them in the body. Then—

Change the posture.

Yeah, that's the entire embodiment, right? Then explaining the purpose, why are we here, what are we here for? And then maybe some safety measures. How are we going to relate to each other? How are we going to speak?

Agreements.

Agreements, exactly. I like to call them safety measures. And normalizing. So for me, it's because what I don't like is, okay, I ask you to do this and that and that, but to say, okay, we're all joining, we have something has happened this morning, or when we're online, we're in different time zones, we have different cultural backgrounds, personalities. So yeah, how can we make it safe for everyone? And then small groups. So, and then turn to your neighbor moment. So always speaking with one other person only for 4 minutes about something that is Not very scary, but creates some connection. Yeah.

Yeah. I always love to share when I get people— when I invite people to get into that personal sharing mode, always giving the participant autonomy, right? Reminding that they're fully autonomous and that they can share whatever they want to share and go to whatever level they want to go to. I really Love this so much, the agreements piece and then the normalizing. I'm so interested in social norms and how can we make these communal agreements to like create a temporary world.

Mm-hmm.

Like, that is so fascinating to me. And I have an activity that I tried at Joy Camp, which was really successful. I think I, it went on for too long, so it got a little diluted. But what I did, there's this play researcher online and I went through his entire website. His name's Bernard Coven. And one of his games is the mingling around game where you got a group and you handshake someone and you must always be handshaking one person during the game. And then you handshake another person, then you let go and you're constantly mingling around, like handshaking people. And I combined that activity with like agreements. So I would state an agreement that we're making as a group, and then I would have people go around and handshake and then look them in the eyes and be like, I agree. Yes, I will do that. Yep. Yep. And so everyone— and then what I did is I invited the participants to contribute agreements.

Hmm.

But That, you know, because that could go sideways if it's like something that the group doesn't agree to. So, so you got to keep it like on those agreements that most people are going to be like, yeah, of course, let's do that.

Yeah, nice. And then you have the, yeah, the handshaking and making it personal and tangible.

100%.

Very nice.

And when I think of Social norm engineering. There's so much more, but I love— this is the essence of— if you're doing a training and it's 8 hours, if anyone listening to this is doing an event that lasts more than an hour, this mini opening ceremony where we can socially engineer our gathering, this is totally necessary, so important. To think of it in terms of how am I going to social norm engineer the rest of my event, right? And that critical period in the beginning is when we have that opportunity, right?

And you spoke about joy. So joy is your new topic, and you spoke about the 3 C's.

The 3 C's, yes.

Of interpersonal joy. So what is—

yeah, I'm, I'm gonna simplify it to just the science of joy because consistently the science of joy is like the science of human connection. Like that's what all the happiness research kind of demonstrates, right? Interpersonal joy.

Why is joy so important, especially when we think of the workplace and corporate events?

Yeah, I mean, You know, that question, we can engage that question rationally, right? We can look at all the research on joy and positive emotions. That's really what I mean when I mean joy. I don't mean some spiritual fulfillment thing. What I mean is like, we're feeling this joy in our bodies in the moment. It's this biological state. And, you know, like, there's, there's 2 ways to look at it. And I'm curious to hear why it's important to you or why it's not important to you. I'll also say that, so ever since going viral on social media, I'm so surprised by how many people dislike joy and are skeptical of joy. Like, it's surprising to me. And so, yeah.

Tell me more. Just, uh, what makes you say that? What have you experienced?

I've just experienced straight-up hate. Yeah, like I've experienced— I mean, it's primarily because people are upset by the noise that I create in public, but people don't like— there's some, very few, I mean, and this is why social media is not a good place to go for like objective data on anything. It's just a totally skewed environment. But essentially, people don't like the sobriety message, and they think that I'm experiencing joy to get attention, and there's an ulterior motive to the joy, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like I'm capturing people's money or something, like it's all just capitalism. There's a true skepticism by a select few people. But, but I mean, the irony is, and, and for anyone, anyone listening, like if you want to massively amplify your success, you just have to do something remarkable enough that just a small number of people don't like you, and then you'll start to like actually gain momentum.

Well, just what you have experienced.

Yeah, this is the whole reason why my, my social media life has exploded is because what I'm doing is so foreign to a lot of people that they just don't know how to react and they think I'm on drugs, right? And they think I'm lying. So yeah, this has been the greatest gift I've ever received is the attacks. online, and I have become the strongest, most confident version of myself who's even more committed to spreading natural antidepressants, like, because of people who are anonymous online who attack me online, pretty much.

Hmm.

Yeah, it's the greatest accelerator of enlightenment.

Because it makes you clearer in your communication, your vision, and makes you also more grateful for those who are actually supporting you. And, or what is it?

I, I think it's just so much simpler. It's just becoming unfuckwithable. It's becoming so clear on your mission and the impact you're having that Like, it's, it's becoming okay with being disliked. And there's so much power in that, especially when you have your head screwed on right and you're, you're really spreading a positive impact, right? But if you're just convincing yourself, okay, I'm— I mean, you know, this can go down a really dark road, right, of justifying, justifying your behavior.

Yeah.

Based on an illusion of positive impact, right? So you cultivate a stronger identity, you become immune to what people say to you, and you focus— you focus your energy. You learn to focus your energy on people who actually understand you and know you instead of people who don't fucking know a thing about you. And like You know, we— everyone listening to this has been misunderstood by someone who doesn't know anything about you. They don't know anything about you. You made a mistake, you made someone uncomfortable, they don't know any other context. And I bet you it's held you back, Myriam, or it's affected you mentally.

Mm-hmm.

It's affected me mentally. But we have to overcome that if we really want to experiment, take risks, and like drive big impact, we need to accept that risk, right? So it's been the journey.

Yeah. And I think it's funny, I was reading comments on an evaluation report today about my evaluation, and there was one about me making jokes about nationalities and stereotypes. And I realized that there was this moment of, oh, my ego feels hurt. And then this moment of, did I step on someone's toes and I need to change? And then I realized, no, it's— if we constantly try to be polite all the time and to be liked and not to step on toes, then what is the price of me being overly cautious? And then losing this authenticity that I believe creates the space for others to be authentic. And yes, there's one person who felt it was inappropriate for me to say, hey, I'm German, that's why I start on time and finish on time. Hey, I'm German living in the Netherlands, that's why I'm overly direct. And then just getting used to it too. Okay, thank you for noticing it. Now I know that this is part of my facilitation identity that I might be politically incorrect from time to time. That's okay.

Yeah. Wow. There's like so much to unpack there, Myriam. I'm so grateful that you had that experience, and I hope you have more experiences like that. I hope you stir the pot more like I have. I've had that exact experience, and my ego, my ego says I must do everything I can to make sure 100% of the people in my experience love it and are happy and aren't offended. That's what my ego wants.

Mm-hmm.

But that's impossible. If you want to do anything in the world, that is impossible, right? If you want to like actually speak up, and here, here's the, the reality is The reality is, right, don't speak up if you don't want to get disliked. Don't speak up, just be quiet. Don't talk to strangers, just look at your phone all the time. Don't engage in human connection, don't take risks, right?

And still people will dislike you.

Yeah. So, you know, this— okay, I actually I'm going to give you an example that is going to take this podcast in an awesome direction here. And some people are going to like this example, some people aren't. And I just want to contextualize this here. At my events, consent is so important, right? Consensual hugging, just really being explicit when we're participating with other people. I get people dancing with each other and there's this sober, explicit consent piece. And I was once leading a hike party, a hiking dance party, and I had everyone in a huddle, and there were 2 people who didn't want to join the huddle. And so I was like, okay, that's fine, you don't have to join the huddle, but the huddle must be complete. So I just ask that you step aside and the huddle is going to be complete. And I'm, you know, I'm being my comedic self. I'm taking myself So lightheartedly, and that benefits the vibe tremendously. And I just do it naturally now. I just make fun of myself over and over again, and I make jokes. And I'm talking about consent, and I'm talking about how important it is when we're hugging and dancing. And then I say this, I say, but tree hugging, no consent required. And everyone starts to laugh. Yet those 2 people who were outside of the huddle, they hated it. They were infuriated. And guess what? As the ego is programmed to do, the ego focuses on those 2 people, those 2 people. And it bothered me for, you know, like 10 minutes, and then I forgot about it, right? And, you know, I could change everything that I do and not make any jokes, or I shouldn't satirize society. I shouldn't make any jokes. I should be super politically correct. And honestly, what I think that'll do is just create a mediocre and fragile experience for everyone. It's not actually going to get people to the emotional highs. And it's still something I'm navigating is this safe spaces, political correctness, because if we don't want to offend anyone, yeah, like be as woke and politically correct as possible. And don't mention age, gender, don't mention any of that, right? Yeah.

And then it's boring because it doesn't touch us. I think there's a— yeah.

Can I give you one other example that I think will be interesting? So I was hosting another dance party and at a retreat, there was once an activity where You know, all the women did an exercise and the men just witnessed, were fully present, and then they switched roles, right? And then the men did it. And so I did this at a dance party and it was like very vulnerable. I had each like gender group dance and just the rest of the people would just kind of watch and witness. And it went okay. It was vulnerable. Like people probably had never done that. even the men especially being watched by women as they dance.

Mm-hmm.

Like, that's personal growth. That isn't a party. And some people were upset at the very end, but everyone participated. And that activity, if I was trying to appease everyone and if I was in my people pleaser, I would never do an activity like that. But I'm gonna continue doing activities like that because 95% of the people have a new experience that expands their ability to, like, express themselves, right?

Yeah. The only thing is, I wonder why you have to divide it. Well, on the one hand, I do understand that assuming a cisgendered heteronormative crowd, it does make sense. And then for those who don't fit into these categories, Suddenly it doesn't make sense. And then it's still vulnerable to be witnessed by someone independent of their gender and sexual orientation, to be witnessed as we dance.

Honestly, you're so right. I don't think gender is really relevant. And I think there's a way to do it. Like, naturally, it's more uncomfortable for cisgendered heterosexual people to be witnessed by the opposite sex. So that's where most of the benefit of the activity comes from. But there's a way that I could have communicated it so that everyone was included, no matter what their gender was. And that's what I missed, right?

Always growth potential. Thank you, Shane.

Yeah, yeah. But, but I'm just— this, this whole topic of stirring the pot Experimenting and risking our reputation through our experimentation. You know, this is like, this is what never done before is all about. Like, to it, not, not explicitly risking your reputation, but that the container that you created with that is like, okay, we are— and you've designed the social norms so that people can flop. And I think there's so much power In that, and with that context, then everyone's like, oh, you made a politically incorrect comment, but that's what it's about. Like, we're here to make mistakes. That is such a powerful environment.

Yeah. And I think it all boils down to psychological safety, right? Is it safe enough to take an interpersonal risk? So, and this interpersonal risk Usually means, okay, is there danger to be disliked, to lose a reputation, or even in the slightest way? And how can we make it easier to go there?

Yeah, yeah.

And I think we, we went on a tangent, um, that I don't forget, talking about joy. So what are the— what are the 3 C's of joy?

The 3 C's, the 3 C's of joy. So cultivate your physiological state, right? All to do with biology, what neurochemicals are going through our bloodstream. It's all it is. 2, celebrate social risks.

Mm-hmm.

Celebrate social risks, not just in other people, But in ourselves. One thing that I remind myself every time I get rejected or I mess up is I must remember that I took a social risk, and that is a good thing. Because the essence of true risk is when you mess up sometimes.

Otherwise, it's not the risk.

You're just playing it safe. You're just playing it safe. And honestly, I'm at this point where I've taken so many risks and I never fail. I need to take more risks. I'm surprised I don't fail as much as I do. And there's going to be a corporate conference. We're going to have a round 4, and I'm going to tell you about like how my giant speaking contract just got told. It'll be, it'll be intense.

And maybe not, because when I think of the rejections that you have provoked, There was a time where you had this gigantic Excel sheet and you would every day contact, what, 5 people to make them offers to speak at their conference and to host a sober party for them. And they would go, no, no. And you just continued and collected these nos. So I just wanted to— A, to honor that because it does take courage and discipline and the belief in what you do.

Yeah.

And it also shows that it does pay off. And I think that's something that I highly admire in you and that many forget. That, yeah, everyone wants to have your followership on social media, everyone wants to have your reputation, but nobody wants to do the work and nobody wants to fail as As much as you did to arrive there.

Yeah. And I would advise people, like, it's an illusion. Like, having a lot of followers on Instagram complicates your life and generally increases depressive symptoms. So I would, I would hope everyone's aspiring to be more anonymous. Yeah, I want to speak to that, Myriam. I'm so grateful that we have this relationship where, you know, the journey I've been on and, you know, early in our relationship, I was very naive and I didn't have the right product for the people that I was trying to sell to. And yeah, I remember it was a dark period for me and I actually, That's when I went to my second Vipassana retreat, was during this dark period of like just radio silence in response to hundreds of requests, hundreds of sales pitches. And I'm glad I got through that period and kept going because now like momentum is like full. It's just the dip, right? It's the entrepreneurial dip. That's what it is.

Thank you. I'm glad that you made it out. And what's the 3rd C?

The 3rd C. Yes, the 3rd C. The 3rd C is co-create community. Co-create community. And the third C is very much about becoming a host and contributing to the creation of communal joy, right?

Mm-hmm.

Contributing to these shared experiences that can give us peak joy, right? Because when We have these experiences when we participate as a group. I call them social technologies, right? Like the, some of the liberating structures. When we participate and when we use these social technologies, we can unlock so much more joy than what's possible, you know, one-to-one or alone. And this isn't just about taking a mic. But, you know, we, we all know there's so much joy and fulfillment to taking a microphone and speaking up to that degree, right? There's so much joy and this is— there's so many amazing things we can create when we take the microphone and we accept the possibility to be disliked, right?

Mm-hmm.

But the other side of this is just being a host. Like, there's so much fulfillment just from thinking about how can I create a sense of community in this group. I don't need to take a microphone. Maybe I just ask someone who's been silent in the conversation, what if I invite them to contribute instead?

Mm-hmm.

What, what if I interrupt a big socially unaware speaker, right? These are skills also of co-creating community, right?

Yeah. So what I hear is the first one is really to bring the body into the space, so to wake up our physical senses. The second is to take an interpersonal risk, so to be— to dare just a little bit more. And the third is to contribute to the group and to be responsible for each other.

And I would say the final one is taking the lead. The final stage, right, is I'm going to take responsibility for the sense of community in this group. And what I mean by that is I'm not just going to stay silent and let everyone do their own thing. It's called the norm for community is together but separate. And I just want to remind everyone listening, like, I think this is the most important skill for joy, not just in a corporate space. The best memories in my life is when I have turned a really boring party experience into like a communal, psychologically safe shared experience.

Mm-hmm.

And so I feel like why so many facilitators, they're a facilitator in their professional role and then they go to an average dinner party and it's just, it just sucks for everyone involved. And there's no unity, there's no safety, there's just nothing. It's just like totally Totally missed opportunity. And so there's this possibility for each of us to step into a selfless authority at gatherings in our lives. And, and not even a gathering, I'm talking about maybe like a group of 4 people. A group of 4 people. We can become conversational facilitators too. We can become group facilitators. And it's actually not exhausting. It's exhilarating. But some people will think you're a control freak and that you're just doing it for your ego. Do you ever do that? Like, when you're not supposed to lead, you step up?

I think I used to do it more when I was younger.

Yeah.

And now I learned to Either surrender or to step out.

Yeah.

So if it's— if I'm in spaces that don't feel safe, meaningful, and facilitated, I step out.

You just opt out, like you will leave the experience?

Yeah.

Not participate fully?

And then, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it depends on the context. And then if I care, and I see an opportunity, then I would step up.

Yeah, there's so much power in that word surrender. You know, that's such a powerful decision as well.

Because I think there's also, there's also a learning in sitting through a situation that feels uncomfortable because, is it just me? Because I think as a facilitator, capital F facilitator, I experience group situations very differently than other other participants. For most people, having a mediocre, boring dinner party is normal, right? That's, that's how it is. And who am I to take the lead and to suddenly facilitate if they're actually happy how it is? And then it's all about my ego, right? So if I think to facilitate, and that's something that I've learned over the years, I've not always been that wise. We also need permission to facilitate. So I would not anymore just step up and suddenly facilitate because most of the people will be like, and who are you? And why are you making it difficult? Because everything was actually nice. So, um, and that's something that I learned through Never Done Before, actually. There were some sessions that are really challenging for me. Sitting there and I was so triggered. It was so uncomfortable. I just wanted to leave. And then realizing, oh, other people enjoy it. And what is it about me that makes it uncomfortable for me? Because I'm most probably just projecting.

I love that you're owning your flawed perception of the situation and narrow perception, right? We as facilitators, we usually know things can be a lot better, yet It's important to evaluate the actual experience people are having. But I would say that I'm a lot better at surrendering now, but I've had too many experiences where I've stepped into the role of selfless authority and everyone has had a magical experience.

Mm-hmm.

And it's been one of the most fulfilling moments of my life. And so I've had too many experiences like that. To just say to myself, right? Like, it's not my place. It's not my place to improve the experience for everyone here. But now my language is, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask consent from the host. I'm gonna get consent. I'm gonna adapt to the group. And if the group wants to do it, I'll do it. And if the group doesn't want to do it, that's okay. But I'm gonna try. And I'm not going to talk myself out of it because I know there's so much joy to be created. There's so much latent joy. And so now it's just like so much fun. It's so much fun and it's giving. It's this massive gift to the world because everyone else was not thinking about facilitation. Most people are not really thinking about facilitation at all.

Oh yeah.

But people are usually— these are general terms, but a lot of people are waiting for something to happen, and they just have this limited reality of what's possible in a conversation or a group. And I see the, I see the possibilities, so I step into it. And guess what? Guess what happens? I get called an egomaniac. I get called the attention seeker. Right? But the impact is undeniable. The people are engaged and they're having fun. And it's like, you know?

So yes, you will be called the attention seeker and egomaniac by the 2 who didn't want to hug the trees, right? Who weren't in the huddle. And I was just wondering what makes the difference because I can perfectly see how my younger self, maybe still myself, Tries to step into such a situation, facilitate it, and then landing on this uncomfortable silence. Everyone like, ugh. And this not happening when you step in. And I think what your gift is and why it works for you, you bring this lightness. You bring a lightness, a somatic lightness. So it's not the talking. So before they even know it, and the speed, and I remember you mentioned that, I think in our previous conversation, that before they know it, they're on their feet and dancing and their cognitive armor didn't have time to actually realize that, oh no, no, no, I should not be doing this. And this might actually be the magic trick.

I totally agree. I think where you're going with that is lightness versus vulnerability.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of people are just not comfortable being listened to for like 2 minutes straight. Like, people are just not comfortable with dyad work or conversational prompts. Like, it's much more acceptable to do that in a workshop environment. So I'm really talking about like communal joy through practices that make people feel joyful and grateful and high vibe. And I think like shadow work and vulnerability, which is the sadder forms of vulnerability, I would only do that if the gathering was like framed that way, and I would be very careful. But most gatherings we go to, like, are about celebrating something, or they're, you know, I'm at my family reunion, you know, it's, it's, we're all together. And what do I do? I bring my giant speaker and I get the whole family, like 40 people, including a woman in a wheelchair, dancing and singing. And everyone remembers it to this day because I stepped up. No permission. I just stepped up and did it, right? So I guess what I'm getting at, and we're really exiting this conversation about corporate facilitation, we're entering the realm of how do we bring these skills into our lives so that we are happier personally? We shouldn't just isolate them to our careers, like, because there's so many gatherings that need you to step up and create magic. And there's an opportunity and some of them are mediocre and the host wants them to be mediocre and don't do anything there. But most of them, let's just be real, are like, listen, like the reason why I produce all my events is because most events are just so mediocre.

Yeah.

The person listening is like, Yeah, this guy is an egomaniac. Why?

No, I think it's good to be conscious of our superpowers and to have strong opinions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen it too many times.

And yes, if we can change the way we gather to create meaningful experiences, yeah, hell yeah, why not? What would you Yeah.

Well, I was just gonna say, we, we must all understand that you said it earlier, right? Skin hunger. It's so human to benefit from this sense of community. And in every gathering, there's a massive opportunity to give everyone in the room natural antidepressants.

Mm-hmm.

And that opportunity is continually missed because no one in the room is hosting or facilitating with intention.

Hmm.

And so, it's a massive gift to the world. It's a massive gift. It battles loneliness. It's good for our mental health. It's good for our physical health. It's just— it's a panacea. And this is my purpose on Earth. It used to be just throw sober parties and promote sober partying. Now it's how do I ignite the joy rebel in each person?

Why is it the joy rebel?

It's a joy rebel because social norms say you shouldn't express joy in public. You shouldn't try to get groups of people dancing. You shouldn't be goofy and you should look good. You should be professional. Like it's, it's total rebellion from, from Western social norms, right? It's a very courageous act to step into this joy, and the most courageous act is co-creating community, right? Especially when you're not invited. Oh, sounds good. Will you join me, Myriam, as a joy rebel?

That sounds so fun.

Come to the light side.

Yeah. What remains your facilitation challenge?

What is my current facilitation challenge? Oh yeah, I have it immediately. How to promote a space that doesn't just become like a healing, past-oriented trauma space. How to navigate that, but also like make it about physiology, joy, present moment awareness. I'm currently navigating this in my communities because my communities are personal growth oriented and a lot of personal growth. Guess what it's focused on? The science of illness.

Hmm.

The psychology, the research on psychology has focused on mental illness for 100 years. Just recently we're focusing on the science of happiness, right? And so I'm navigating, I don't want to shun people for trauma dumping. But I want to create a space where we are intentional about sharing these traumas so that we can improve our lives and become happier, not just so that we can validate each other. Oh, you're so broken, your wounds, all this identification with the past. It's in the language, even my trauma, my trauma. I'm right. So that's something I'm thinking about a lot, willing to take any advice you have.

I don't think that I'm skilled for giving advice on that. And I can see it. I mean, there is a place, there must be a place to grieve and to heal. And then trauma bonding is real. And I'm a big fan of the book, The Power of Being Disliked, The Courage to Be Disliked, sorry, where it's all around that.

Share more.

So the book is based on the Adlerian psychology or philosophy, who says that there is no trauma, and stating that usually what we have in terms of mental illnesses is usually an unconscious want of attention, comfort, withdrawal. Because we are so afraid of being rejected. So for instance, if there is social anxiety, then it's not a mental illness to have this anxiety, but we are so afraid of being rejected that we rather stay by ourselves and don't take this small interpersonal risk of interacting with someone.

Hold on, hold on, Myriam. Are you saying that we shouldn't just take medications For social anxiety.

Exactly, exactly. And then, so the book, and that's so powerful about it, is the moment you, you're courageous enough not to seek for being liked or for permission or for appreciation, that's the moment where you can actually be happy. Because yeah, as you said in the beginning, you can't, you will never be liked by everyone. And if you take all the decisions in your life based on what other people want from you, you either don't move at all, or you're constantly anxious and depressed because you're doing stuff that is against your integrity.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's so ironic that the people who don't need to be liked and don't need social validation They're the most likable, good company ever. They're giving, right? And the lonely people, and there's research on this, like lonely people struggle to build the relationships because there's almost this circuit. We detect someone is lonely and it's like, oh, that's too much. There's some literature on this.

I wonder what that has to do with boundaries. Because someone who doesn't need to be liked can be very clear in, this is what I want, this is what I don't want, this is what I give, this is what I don't give. And I think most of us, me included, I just graduated from my boundary tower. So I, this year I really learned how to set boundaries.

Oh my gosh.

And I realized that it's, it's very scary. So we all are afraid Or most people that I know are afraid of setting boundaries. And yet we appreciate it so much if someone else is clear in their communication. And I think lonely people very often become too much, air quotes, because there's a lack of boundaries.

And you're putting the responsibility on the person who's not lonely. They don't know how to communicate boundaries with someone who's needy.

Yeah, yeah. So the— I think communicating our boundaries is always our own responsibility.

Yeah.

Because other people won't know. And I think it's very liberating because I once had a— with my coach, we did a visualization activity and Martin guided me in this thing where he said, okay, imagine you're a rose and the rose has thorns and they're pointing outwards. And in my visualization, my thorns were pointing inwards. So my problem with boundaries was that nobody actually saw the thorns, saw the boundaries, so they came too close and then I hurt myself instead of them. That was quite revealing.

Wow, the thorns going inward. Yeah, yeah. This is really topical for me as people are requesting my attention more and more, and people with mental health challenges are, are wanting like access as well. And so I've had to communicate my boundaries much more often.

Mm-hmm. And Yeah.

And, and I guess what I'm getting at too is more of this like intuitive attraction to people who are practicing these, these, uh, courage to be disliked skills. Like the intuitive attraction I have toward them versus people who are lonely and, and need my support.

Mm-hmm.

There's almost like a circuit that gets activated in my body and I'm like, I have no bandwidth for that. And it's ironic because, like, I host parties and I love it when people who need an antidepressant, a natural antidepressant, come to my parties. But I don't spend one-on-one time. I don't have the resources to spend one-on-one time. I don't have the desire. I don't have the professional abilities.

Mm-hmm.

And so, like, a lot of people will be like, well, Jacques's a liar. Like, he's not practicing what he's preaching. He doesn't set up all these one-on-one dates with these people with mental health challenges. So his whole mental health mission is, is like a hoax. Um, but really, like, I'm protecting myself so that I can give, pretty much.

Yeah. And I love the clarity because just because you're giving one thing doesn't need to mean that you're giving everything. And you decide what it is you want to give. And I think the clearer you are in the messaging and the expectations that those joining can have, the better. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you want to share with me, uh, one of the best pieces of advice for setting boundaries? Maybe something we haven't heard about setting boundaries that you learned from the Radical Honesty course?

Um, something not from the course, but from my partner, who is great in setting boundaries, definitely much better than I am. And at some point she told me, Miriam, stop giving reasons. So I used to explain and apologize. Oh, I don't do coffee dates anymore, coffee chats, because I receive so many and I don't have time. And I don't have enough time for my family. I don't have enough time for my business. Blah blah blah. And then because she made me aware that the more explanations and reasons I give, the more opportunity for counterarguments. Like, oh, but this is about business. Or and now I dare to say thank you for the invitation. And I cannot have a coffee chat with you. Full stop. I don't need to explain why I cannot have that or I don't want to have.

Yeah, I made that mistake recently and I got into a massive argument.

Right. And we don't have to explain our boundaries.

Yeah, it's just in my situation, it was someone who needed support and I was almost trying to help them reframe the situation, and I think it probably did more damage than good.

Hmm.

And yeah, I think that, I mean, this concept of radical honesty, it can really hurt people, right? And so the way that we communicate, Radical honesty. And our— I guess what I'm getting at is, if I want to protect my reputation, sometimes I have to, like, defend myself, I guess, and give reasons. But in this case, it probably would have just been better to state my boundaries. I would say I'm still confused about the situation.

Me too.

Yeah, but I made some mistakes and I communicated in a harsh way, but I was radically honest. I was radically honest. I communicated in a harsh way and there was backlash in my community, right?

And so there's some principles to radical honesty, and I will get my teachers on the show to talk about that because Radical honesty is not just about being radically honest, but about owning your shit. And it was just yesterday that I communicated to my partner that I felt angry that she didn't show up at one of my events. And I just communicated like this, and I knew that I haven't asked her. She didn't know that it was important to me. So the radical honesty means, okay, I can express how I feel while being very aware that it's not you who made me feel that way. And then she said, thank you for expressing that. I'm sorry that you feel angry. And what do you need?

Mm-hmm.

And then we are out of this blame game. And I think that's the most important that we have Very often, me included, I would blame someone. So I want to be radically honest, but it's actually I make them responsible for my feelings. They're not.

So how did you communicate that? You didn't say, you caused me to be angry because you didn't show up at my event. How did you communicate that and implicate her in the anger?

I said, um, I'm angry at you because I would have wished you came to my event. Need.

You expressed a need. That's beautiful. I think that's a big light bulb moment for me because what I struggle with is when I have strong feelings at someone, I struggle to not make them the cause of my feelings with my language. And I think this, this is a huge insight, is when we say, I'm angry because— it's because I want or I need.

Mm-hmm.

It's not because you didn't show up or you made me feel. It's because I need to feel like my community is a space for joy. Yeah, right. Um, not, not mental health support, right? In this case, right? I'm gonna write that down. Thank you.

Um, all right, episode finished.

All good.

That's from, um, that's from the nonviolent communication. I think you would really, um, appreciate that. Nonviolent communication by— yeah.

Yeah, it's the whole framework, right? Feeling, Request something else. It's like 4 letters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What would— before we close, or for closing, I cannot imagine that we're already at the time— what would be your advice to your younger self?

I would say accept the possibility of being misunderstood and Follow the relationships where people understand you and try to understand you. Put your energy into the relationships that try to understand you, that celebrate you, and just accept the inevitable misunderstanding and don't let it hold you back from taking risks.

Thank you.

It's a celebration.

Celebration.

Round 3, everybody. Round 4 is coming out once I totally fail at a high-ticket contract.

Thank you, Jacques. It's always a joy to speak with you. Thank you for staying tuned and for listening until the very end. I hope that you found The inspiration and the wisdom that you are looking for. And I hope that you will subscribe to the show so that you never miss any of the interviews with another inspiring facilitator from across the world. I am devoted to continue this podcast and to deliver weekly an episode that maintains the quality that you expect and you deserve. And if you would like to help me to maintain this quality and to keep the podcast free, Please help us visit workshops.work/support to make a small donation to keep the podcast free. Thank you so much. I hope to be in your ears next week.